1
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4 DIGITALLY RECORDED
5 SWORN STATEMENT
6 OF
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9 OIG CASE #:
10 2019-010614
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18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
20 SEPTEMBER 22, 2021
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RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES
28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
Phone: (818) 431-5800
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
4 BY:
5 BY:
6
7
8 WITNESS:
9
10
11
12 OTHER APPEARANCES:
13 NONE
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EFTA00062068
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1 : This is Special Agent
2 . It's September 22nd. The time is
3 approximately 12:50 p.m.
4 : 2021.
5 : 2021. My name is
6 Special Agent with the U.S.
7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector
8 General, New York Field Office, and these are
9 my credentials.
10 : Okay.
11 : This interview with unit
12 manager, , is being conducted
13 as part of an official U.S. Department of
14 Justice, Office of the Inspector General
15 investigation. Again, today's date is
16 September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m.
17 This interview is being conducted at the
18 Metropolitan Detention Center in , New
19 York. Also present is DOJ/OIG Senior Special
20 Agent, . This interview will
21 be recorded by me, Special Agent
22 Could everyone please identify themselves for
23 the record, and spell your last name? To
24 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent
25
EFTA00062069
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1 : Senior Special Agent
2 with the U.S. DOJ/OIG.
3 And these are my credentials.
4 : My name is
5 . Last name, unit
6 manager at MCC, TDY'd here, temporarily.
7 : Okay. Thank you for
8 clarifying that.
9 : At MDC
10 : Thank you. This is an
11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death
12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding
13 circumstances. And you are being asked to
14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions.
15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with
16 the DOJ/OIG?
17 : Yes.
18 : Thank you.
19 : Please review DOJ/OIG form
20 11I-226/2. The form states, The United States
21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector
22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employees
23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary
24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide
25 information as part of an investigation being
EFTA00062070
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1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector
2 General. This investigation is being conducted
3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978,
4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job
5 performance failure and security failure."
6 : And just so you're aware,
7 that's what we're writing on everybody that we
8 interview.
9 : Okay. That's fine.
10 : Okay.
11 : No problem.
12 "This is a voluntary
13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to
14 answer any questions. No disciplinary action
15 will be taken against you if you choose not to
16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish
17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal
18 proceedings, or agency disciplinary
19 proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I
20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated
21 above and I am willing to make a statement and
22 answer questions. No promises or threats have
23 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of
24 any kind has been used against me." Please
25 read the form, review the form. If you
EFTA00062071
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1 understand, please print your name and sign on
2 the right side. That's over here. That will
3 be your signature. Print your name right below
4 that. Yeah. This is Special Agent
5 , I'm signing as a signature of the
6 Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent.
7 : And you understand, this
8 is a voluntary interview, you don't have to
9 answer our questions. You can stop it at any
10 time. Correct?
11 : Yes.
12 : Perfect. Thank you.
13 : The time is 12:54 p.m. As
14 Senior Special Agent, can you sign as a
15 witness, please?
16 : Sure.
17 : Thank you, sir.
18 : Yes.
19 : This is Senior Special
20 Agent I'm signing as the
21 witness.
22 : My phone is in there.
23 : Oh. There you go.
24 : Thank you. Before starting
25 the interview, I would like to place you under
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1 oath. can you please raise your
2 right hand?
3 : Mm-hmm.
4 : Do you swear to tell the
5 truth and nothing but the truth during this
6 interview?
7 : I do.
8 : Thank you. You can put your
9 hand down. Please let me know if you do not
10 understand any questions, and I'll try to
11 repeat it, or rephrase it for you. What is
12 your current home address?
13 : My current home address is
14 , New
15 York.
16 -: . You showed me your
17 credentials. Can you show that to me one more
18 time?
19 : Yeah.
20 -: is showing me his
21 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of
22 Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states
23 , Unit Manager, MCC New York
24 on it. Thank you for that.
25 : Yup.
EFTA00062073
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1 : What is your current cell
2 phone number?
3 : My current cell phone number
4 is
5 : What is your highest level of
6 education?
7 : High school and some
8 college.
9 : What college?
10 : I went to, I studied at a
11 , and received a
12 certificate there for HVAC, Heating and
13 Plumbing.
14 : Is that in New York?
15 : That's in , as
16 in Union.
17 : Union. Okay.
18 : Union, New Jersey.
19 : I understand. Do you have
20 any military service?
21 : Yes, I do.
22 : What?
23 : Four years Army, four years
24 active, and three years, nine months National
25 Guard.
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1 : Are you currently still in
2 the military, or --
3 : No.
4 -- are you discharged?
5 : Discharged.
6 : Honorable?
7 : Honorable discharge.
8 : And what grade?
9 : E-4.
10 : Thank you for that. Thank
11 you for your service. And what was the enter
12 duty date with the BOP?
13 : March 6, 1994.
14 : And when did you graduate
15 from BOP training?
16 : Hmm.
17 : If you don't remember.
18 year?
19 : Yeah. It was - yeah -
20 don't remember.
21 : So, 1994. Around then.
22 : I went in 1994. So, I had
23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after '94.
24 So, right around '94. Some time.
25 : And you mentioned that you're
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1 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the
2 MDC program.
3 : That is correct.
4 : And you were TDY from MCC?
5 : That is correct.
6 : When did you start at the
7 MCC?
8 : I came here, I want to say,
9 around a month and a half ago because they're
10 remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they
11 sent me over here, and there was a -. They
12 gave me a letter of, I want to say it said, not
13 temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until
14 further notice.
15 : And your position in August
16 of 2019 was unit manager, also?
17 : Yes.
18 : And which units, again, were
19 you?
20 : Unit. My unit was unit 11.
21 North 11 South. And 9 North at the time.
22 : Do you recall being
23 interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding
24 the Epstein matter in August 2019?
25 : Yes.
EFTA00062076
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1 : What I have in front of me is
2 a 302. It's called a report, of investigation
3 written by the FBI, and I'm not going to read
4 through the whole thing, but we're going to go
5 through a few portions that we need
6 clarification on. And we'll go from there.
7 The paragraph that I'm starting with, it
8 starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry
9 - is 8/16/2019.
10 : Mm-hmm.
11 : Because the interview was
12 on 8/12/2019.
13 : 8/12/2019. During the days"
14 - I'm reading from the memo - "during the days
15 prior to Epstein's death, ran into
16 Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to
17 meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or
18 Thursday. Epstein told he needed to
19 set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp.
20 *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social
21 calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set
22 it up because he was always meeting with his
23 lawyers,and was never in the SHU. Epstein
24 asked to assist him because his normal
25 unit manager was on leave." Who was his normal
EFTA00062077
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1 unit manager?
2 : His normal unit manager was
3 Unit Manager
4 •
5 • (Phonetic Sp.
6 *00:08:47).
7 • . Okay.
8 : Do you know how to spell
9 that last name?
10 : Her name first name is III-
11
12 . Okay.
13 : Thank you.
14 : Yeah. Thank you.
15 "Epstein." Sorry.
16 looked in the system and verified the only call
17 made by Epstein, from the MCC, was the three-
18 minute call given to inmates at the time of the
19 initial intaking to the facility. made
20 the request for Epstein, and obtained a paper
21 print out of his pack and piand provided it to
22 Epstein." When you provided to Epstein, was it
23 active?
24 : He has to activate it. The
25 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we
EFTA00062078
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1 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has
2 to activate it.
3 : Okay. What do they have to
4 do activate it?
5 : What they have to do is,
6 they would have to get on the phone, which, he
7 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a
8 phone call for every 30 days. So, in general
9 population, they would get on the phone, they
10 would record their voice. Once they record, by
11 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then
12 it would actually activate, and then they can't
13 money on the phone, and then have to put money
14 on a phone, then they could use the phone.
15 : So, when you gave him the
16 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet
17
18 : That is correct.
19 : -- he still had to active it.
20 : That is correct.
21 : And is it that he has to put
22 money on it, too?
23 : That is correct.
24 : Okay.
25 : And was there any way for
EFTA00062079
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1 him to activate it, with his current situation
2 at the time being in the SHU?
3 : Not that particular day, he
4 was requested a phone. It would have took him,
5 to actually activate it in SHU, and add money
6 to it, because when you activate it in Special
7 Housing Unit, let's say he activates it to
8 today. He would have to fill out a green form.
9 Usually, they would do it on the computer.
10 They don't have computers in SHU where they
11 could do it. So, they would have to fill out a
12 green form, which would have to be given to
13 them by a unit manager, or a unit team member.
14 That green form is then filled out by them.
15 And then, it's submitted to our ITS, which then
16 will put it, put the money on the money on his
17 account. I would say it would take, like,
18 three or four days, to a week, for it to
19 actually be activated. Be in his account.
20 : And was he provided a
21 green form?
22 : No. Because at that
23 particular time, I just gave him the pin and
24 pack. That was it.
25 : So, the pin and pack
EFTA00062080
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1 couldn't be used, though, is what you're
2 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then
3 request a green form?
4 : That is correct. When
5 inmates originally come in, we give them their
6 pin and pack then. So, it should have been
7 activated when he first came in the building.
8 : Okay. Do you know why it
9 wasn't?
10 : I wasn't his unit team.
11 : Sure.
12 : But it should have been
13 activated then.
14 : Okay. So, but the way
15 that this went, was you provided him with it,
16 but what you provided him, he couldn't have
17 actually used?
18 : No.
19 : And at what point does he
20 request the green form?
21 : I was going to actually, the
22 next day, give him that green form, because I
23 knew, I knew it was the next step.
24 : Okay.
25 : He didn't even have to ask
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1 for that, because I knew it was the next step.
2 Once again, he wasn't my inmate, but I knew, as
3 unit manager --
4 : Okay.
5 : -- what was the next step.
6 The next step was to give him the green form,
7 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this
8 amount of money on my form. And then, give it
9 to him that way.
10 : Yeah.
11 : Okay. So, the days
12 leading up to Epstein's death, you ran into him
13 and he asked for it. Did you give it to him
14 that day, or did you give it to him the day -?
15 : No. That day.
16 : The 9th?
17 : Yup.
18 : So, the day prior to him
19 being found in his cell?
20 : Yup.
21 : Okay.
22 : And correction. I'm sorry.
23 Because it's not done by computers, I want to
24 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he
25 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do
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1 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can
2 actually put money over the phone.
3 : Okay. But there was no
4 phone for him to actually do that with?
5 : No. Not, like, as far as a
6 phone to give it to, and let him record it.
7 No.
8 : But being assigned to the
9 SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being
10 in the attorney conference. I mean, would he
11 have the ability to activate that?
12 : In the attorney conference,
13 there was no, there is no phone in there.
14 : In the SHU, though, could
15 he activated it?
16 : In the SHU, we would have to
17 actually give him the phone, the phone would
18 have to be during his validation time. So,
19 that validation times starts in the time that
20 you come in the prison. So, say if he came in
21 on the 19th, his activation time would be the
22 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days.
23 So, being that he never used the phone, he
24 would be in there with an activated, probably,
25 the next day.
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1 : But from within the SHU?
2 : Within the SHU. If he was
3 given a phone.
4 : Okay.
5 : If he was given a phone.
6 Yeah.
7 : And they do have phones
8 in the SHU, though. Is that what you're
9 saying?
10 : Yes.
11 : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.
12 : Just a quick question. That
13 you mentioned it was on the 9th?
14 : Well, it says on the days
15 leading up, he asked for it, but you said on
16 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him.
17 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he
18 asked for it?
19 : No. The actual date that he
20 asked for the form, because the same day he
21 asked for a phone, I gave him his
22 : Oh. Because yeah, in the
23 interview that you had, you know, a couple days
24 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during
25 the days prior to Epstein's death. So, days --
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1 : (Indiscernible *00:13:34).
2 : -- plural.
3 : Right, right, right.
4 : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) --
5 : So, that -.
6 -- if it says either
7 Wednesday or Thursday.
8 : Yeah. It was either
9 Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure what date.
10 : So, not on the date that --
11 : So, not --
12 : Right.
13 : -- on the 9th.
14 : Right.
15 : Okay.
16 : Either that Wednesday or
17 that Thursday, he was given that.
18 : Okay.
19 : Because I like I said, he
20 was always in court, but when he asked me, I
21 came down, and I saw him with his lawyer. So,
22 I would, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to
23 set it up.
24 : Oh, he was in court, or was
25 he -?
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1 : No. He was downstairs.
2 : In attorney conference?
3 : Yeah.
4 : Okay.
5 : Sorry. So, it was given
6 to him on either Wednesday or Thursday.
7 : Mm-hmm.
8 : Which would possibly --
9 : That would be
10 August 7th --
11 -- August 7th --
12 or the 8th.
13 : -- or the 8th.
14 : That is correct.
15 : And when you gave it to him,
16 was his attorneys present?
17 : Yes.
18 : Because it states, "Epstein
19 was happy, as were his lawyers, who made a
20 thumbs up gesture."
21 : Mm-hmm.
22 : Okay. I'm going to, you
23 know, read on.
24 : Mm-hmm.
25 "On Friday, August 9th, 2019,
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1 worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as
2 the duty officer. Epstein told he
3 wanted to make a call to his mother, but had
4 not yet been able to set up his pack and pin.
5 , he was ensuring his inmates have
6 family socialization as part of his job, so he
7 allows inmates having technical problems with
8 their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone
9 call. told Epstein his watch was
10 ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way
11 he would be able to help him make a call was if
12 he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier
13 than normal. checked and confirmed
14 that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and
15 pin."
16 : That is correct.
17 "At approximately 6:45 p.m.,
18 found Epstein waiting for him, to make
19 that call." Where was he waiting?
20 : In attorney conference, with
21 his lawyers.
22 : Okay. And did you go in
23 there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey,
24 listen, he's waiting for you?
25 : No. They notified me in
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1 attorney conference that he was ready because
2 they knew I was leaving at 7:00.
3 : Okay. "Epstein was
4 handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs.
5 did not know which cell was Epstein's,
6 and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on
7 G-tier, which prefers for phone calls
8 because inmates are not locked in their cells
9 with the ability to pull the phone cord into
10 their locked cell, and use it to commit self-
11 harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the
12 shower, where the guards are also physically
13 present, with Epstein. used the first
14 outlet on the left, which is the legal line.
15 Epstein provided with the phone number
16 beginning with (347)." Now, before I go on, it
17 says you used the first outlet on the left,
18 legal line. Why the legal line?
19 : Because they have two lines
20 in there. One is a legal line, and one is,
21 where he uses his phone. So, he - let's say if
22 I plugged it in there, he can't use it because
23 his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal
24 line, like we give right now, we give inmates
25 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to
EFTA00062088
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1 put in that code, in order for them to make
2 that call. So, there's a certain call where
3 the inmates don't have.
4 So, I would have to dial that - at that
5 time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial
6 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello,
7 boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him.
8 Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't
9 You can just dial out on that phone. So, a
10 legal line is set up for us to give inmates
11 legal calls in SHU.
12 : What is the difference
13 between the legal line and the other line?
14 : The -.
15 : Other than the fact that you
16 need the pin. Is there a difference between
17 both of them?
18 : Yes. The difference is an
19 inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and
20 that's social call.
21 : Mm-hmm.
22 : For him to make any social
23 calls to his family, which is, they're
24 recorded. That one is recorded. The legal
25 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal
EFTA00062089
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1 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be
2 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this
3 is , I have your client here. Boom,
4 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here's the phone, and
5 we give him the phone. And then, we don't stay
6 within that vicinity to listen to their phone
7 calls. And that's the same phone that they
8 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them
9 that call, we actually give it to them
10 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give
11 it to them, we give them the phone right in
12 front of us.
13 : It states, about that,
14 "Epstein told he wanted to make a call
15 to his mother."
16 : Mm-hmm.
17 : But that was not a legal
18 call, though.
19 : No.
20 : It was a personal call.
21 : That is correct.
22 : How come the legal line?
23 : Because if he didn't have
24 something set up, how would he make a phone
25 call? And this inmate been with us for a
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1 while. And me, personally, if he was my
2 inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why
3 his wasn't set up, I don't know. And I will
4 give you a good example. R. Kelly's up there,
5 his is set up. Why his wasn't set up, my job
6 as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an
7 inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden.
8 So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a
9 phone call?
10 He's been asking for this phone call for a
11 while. From his unit manager, from everybody,
12 and I'm, like, why does this inmate don't have
13 his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm
14 not his unit team. That's not my
15 responsibility to have other stuff. If it was,
16 it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty
17 officer, and I know that I verified that he
18 didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's
19 just like any other inmate. It's only right to
20 make sure that he stays in contact with his
21 family, because that's part of the program
22 statement of inmates visiting their families
23 and keeping in contact with their family
24 members. He didn't have a line to make it on.
25 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it
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1 on a legal line.
2 : Did you have a conference
3 with anyone above you, to get permission for
4 that, or was it just a decision made by you?
5 : I made a decision because,
6 as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00
7 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I
8 wouldn't call the warden at home and say, hey,
9 can I give him this legal call? Because that's
10 what the duty officer job is. The duty officer
11 is there representing the warden while she's
12 not there. So, basically, I'm over the
13 lieutenants, I'm over They would have to
14 contact me. When incidents happen, they have
15 to contact the duty officer. Then I contact
16 the region, the duty officer.
17 : Oh, I see.
18 : So, I don't contact the
19 warden. I contact the regional duty officer.
20 : So, as the duty officer, you
21 report to the region?
22 : That is correct.
23 : Do you recall having a
24 conversation, though, with the captain, and him
25 providing you the authority to do it?
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1 : No. Because with unit
2 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone
3 call is not the captain's responsibility.
4 : No, no, no. We had
5 information that you actually spoke with him in
6 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the
7 call.
8 -•
9 : Is that true? Yeah.
10 : I don't - it's been so long
11 - I don't recall. I could have. But at the
12 same time, even if he would have said yes or
13 no, I would have gave him the call. Because
14
15 : Okay.
16 : -- because my, myself, just
17 being unit team, inmates, it is our
18 responsibility as a unit team, and our program
19 statement, that we make sure they keep in
20 contact with their family members, or whoever.
21 Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have
22 to.
23 : Mm-hmm.
24 : We have inmates that are -
25 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact,
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1 inmates that indigent, that don't have no
2 money.
3 : Yeah.
4 : How will we give them a
5 phone call? We give them the phone call the
6 same way. Inmates who don't have money,
7 they're indigent. So, if they need a phone
8 call, we have to give them a phone call. We
9 can't just not give them a phone call, but we
10 would call the number, give them the phone
11 call, let them speak to - and we give them a
12 15-minute phone call.
13 : Is that on the legal
14 line, as well?
15 : Yes.
16 : Okay.
17 : Because if they don't have
18 no money, --
19 : Mm-hmm.
20 : -- there's no way to put
21 money on it, but we don't give them money.
22 They're indigent. And that will be on their
23 : What is the word you're
24 ending?
25 : -- indigent.
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1 : Okay.
2 : So, that will be on their
3 We would look on their money form. And
4 basically, any - what they - how they determine
5 if you're indigent, they go by how much money
6 you received in the last six months. They go
7 by six months. So, if an inmate only received,
8 I think it's, I want to say under $50 bucks,
9 that inmate is indigent. It's now in the unit
10 team's responsibility. Also, we not just give
11 them phone calls. An indigent inmate could get
12 up to five legal stamps, every month, and if he
13 wants to do his lawyer, he can get up to five
14 every week.
15 : Now --
16 : Indigent inmates.
17 : -- so, back to
18 though. Does that - from what you said - does
19 that mean, like, it wasn't even him, and his
20 kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility,
21 to tell you that you were authorized?
22 : I think me and had a
23 rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there.
24 An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke.
25 So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So,
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1 if I did ask him, it was me giving him a
2 courtesy. I would have did that to any
3 captain.
4 : Okay.
5 : If you was the captain.
6 It's just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give
7 this guy a phone call. This, this, and that.
8 could have said to me, oh, I don't think
9 that's a good idea. And I would have said,
10 okay. Probably would have went to somebody
11 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the
12 same time, once again, there's nobody there
13 after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would
14 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm
15 going to give him a phone call.
16 : Okay. And you don't
17 remember, though, having that conversation
18 : No.
19 : -- with , and being
20
21 : And I --
22 : -- (Indiscernible
23 *00:22:13).
24 : -- and I could have. I
25 could have had that conversation, because Like
EFTA00062096
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1 I said, we talk on a regular basis. So, I
2 could have.
3 : Just bringing yourself
4 back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet
5 with him, the attorneys are in there. They
6 give you the thumbs up, and you're going back,
7 and you go into an elevator. Do you remember
8 at all being in the elevator with you?
9 : No. I remember being
10 around because - and the reason why I know that
11 - is because doesn't have a lieutenant
12 to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9
13 working there that day.
14 : Okay.
15 : I do remember that. So, if
16 you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or
17 because you have to have a GS-11 and above.
18 : Mm-hmm.
19 : So, he was there that day.
20 I do remember that.
21 : Okay. But you just don't
22 remember that conversation?
23 : That is correct.
24 : Okay. Perfect.
25 : Now that the call was given
EFTA00062097
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1 on the legal line, was there any steps to make
2 sure, because it's supposed to be recorded, you
3 know, an inmate call, a social call, is
4 supposed to be recorded.
5 : Right.
6 : He said he's calling his
7 mother. Was there any steps that you should
8 have taken to ensure that that call was
9 monitored somehow?
10 : The only way we monitor it
11 is, I made the phone call, hello, how you
12 doing? I don't say, hey, is this his mother,
13 because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this
14 his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his
15 mother. How do I know? So, a female answers,
16 I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15
17 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15
18 minutes. When he's done with the phone call,
19 disconnect, and that's it.
20 So, we don't know. Let's say, right now,
21 I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now.
22 For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or
23 whatever. Do we know there's a three-way, or
24 anything? We don't know. So, we sit down. We
25 time it. 15 minutes. And we're done. There's
EFTA00062098
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1 no way to record that phone. There's no way to
2 pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can
3 get on the line. Anybody can get on that line,
4 at that particular time.
5 That was in place since I've been at MCC.
6 Has anything changed? The only thing changed
7 since I've been there is they took out all of
8 the legal lines, and they put them in one
9 particular area. They took them all out of
10 SHU, and they put one legal line in the back,
11 and they changed the code for that particular
12 reason.
13 : What -?
14 : And that wasn't after
15 Epstein. It took a while.
16 : So, they do it in
17 response because people were doing that, was
18 what you mean?
19 : The reason -. I'm one of
20 the ones who actually brought it to the
21 captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible
22 *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was
23 (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a
24 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even
25 after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was
EFTA00062099
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1 there, she - and anybody would say, okay,
2 inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone
3 restriction.
4 But remember, the warden is the only one
5 who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone
6 call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can
7 you give him a phone call? He's on a phone
8 restriction. There's only two ways you could
9 give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you
10 can't give it to him on a social, you give it
11 to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs
12 the cop out. She approves it. Well, any
13 warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not
14 trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how
15 it's done. That's how I've seen it done.
16 Once we get it approved, we give the
17 inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey,
18 hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the
19 chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you -
20 give him two minutes - hey, you have two
21 minutes left and that's it. Take the phone
22 from the inmate. We don't know that person is
23
24 : Okay. So, you are
25 supposed to --
EFTA00062100
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1 : -- because (Indiscernible
2 *00:25:32).
3 : -- you're supposed to sit
4 there with them, though. Correct?
5 : No. There's nothing saying
6 that. That's just, like, sit there and do
7 what?
8 : Oh, so, everything that
9 we've been told is that, if you give the person
10 a call, on a legal line, if it's not the
11 attorney, you're supposed to sit there and
12 monitor the call, because it's not being
13 recorded.
14 : Well, they -. And since
15 I've been there, and that's the reason why I
16 asked them to take it out. Because how you
17 putting somebody on a range, and saying that,
18 hey, this person -. If that's the case, then
19 let's do it the right way. The right way --
20 : Mm-hmm.
21 is to belly chain the
22 inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right
23 way. Take him out - because that's what we do
24 down there - you take him out. You pull the
25 inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded
EFTA00062101
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1 area. You make the phone call. On speaker.
2 Because that's how we do it downstairs. And
3 then, you give it to him on speaker. And then,
4 you let him -. If he wants his 15-minute phone
5 call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk
6 to on speaker.
7 That's how Epstein received his first
8 phone call. It's a three-minute phone call on
9 speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could
10 say, this is the way to do it. That's not the
11 proper way. The proper way to make a phone
12 call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate
13 secluded, because these guys can hear, too.
14 So, you don't know what he's saying. He could
15 be crying for his death. And you got other
16 inmates right there. In the next cell who
17 could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this
18 to me. That.
19 So, the proper way is to bring the inmate
20 out, put him in a belly chain, because then he
21 has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the
22 phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put
23 him on speaker. That's the proper way.
24 : I'm going to finish the
25 paragraph.
EFTA00062102
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1 : Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2 : I know. I'm just --
3 : Yeah.
4 : -- (Indiscernible
5 *00:27:14).
6 : And before we go --
7 : (Indiscernible *00:27:14).
8 : -- just one question,
9 though. Is it pin and pack, or pack and pin?
10 : It's either way.
11 : Oh, okay.
12 : You could say it. Because
13 it's a pin and pack, pack and pin. It's -
14 yeah.
15 : It's all, and it's
16 interchangeable?
17 : Yeah. Because one, your
18 pin is a different number, and your pack is a
19 different number.
20 : Okay.
21 : When you pick up the phone,
22 they're going to say, hey, say your name, and
23 enter your pack number. You enter your pack
24 number, and then it's going to say, enter your
25 pin. That's, like, a four-digit pin.
EFTA00062103
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1 : Okay.
2 : I'm going to read the rest of
3 it. "Epstein provided with the phone
4 number beginning with (347). dialed
5 the number, and a male picked up the phone.
6 handed the phone to Epstein, and heard
7 him say, hey, how you doing? How is
8 everything? then left because his
9 watch was over, and Epstein was being guarded
by SHU C.O.s and T. Noel, and II
11 from internal. described
12 Epstein as very happy that he was able to make
13 a phone call."
14 : That is correct.
15 : Now, can you walk us through.
16 So, once he brought him up. Right? And you
17 put the legal line in --
18 : They brought him out.
19 you dialed -.
20 : I just walked up with the
21 internal. Internal. All inmates have to be
22 walked by an internal. So, , myself
23 escort him up. We brought him up. He was
24 already in chains already. So, I mean, in the
25 cuffs. Bring him up. Go to the shower. Take
EFTA00062104
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1 him out the cuffs. Put him and secure him.
2 Take the cuffs off. Once again, the legal line
3 can't fit to where the inmate could get
4 everything. He just has a handle. So, we dial
5 the number. Hello? Give it to him. And once
6 that's at 7:00, I told the officers, hey, make
7 sure he get his 15-minutes, and after that,
8 he's done. was there. They was, like,
9 okay, no problem. And that was it.
10 : So, you told Noel and
11
12 : Yes.
13 : -- and was also
14 there, that, after 15 minutes, cut off the
15 call?
16 : That is correct.
17 : Did you give them
18 instructions on listening to the phone call at
19 all?
20 : No.
21 : Where was - this is G-tier -
22 where was G-tier compared to the officer SHU --
23 : Okay.
24 : -- and the officer desk? If
25 you're looking at the desk, where is it?
EFTA00062105
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1 : Let's say the desk is by me.
2 : Yeah.
3 : Okay? You go in, and the
4 desk is me, you have tier, this is the first
5 tier. And this is the, with the door. So,
6 it's, G-tier is over here.
7 : Behind the desk?
8 : No. The desk is here.
9 : Okay.
10 : So, I could see --
11 : All right.
12 : I could see G-tier. So,
13 G-tier is here. I could see it.
14 : All right. Okay.
15 : Yeah. And you could see G-
16 tier.
17 : And when you walk up G-tier,
18 where is the shower?
19 : Right there.
20 : Right when you walk in?
21 : That's the only -. That's
22 the only shower that is outside. All the other
23 showers are inside. So, you have to -. So,
24 you can't see it. So, G-tier is the only
25 shower that's, like, you could actually see.
EFTA00062106
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1 Like, if you sit down, you can actually see
2 that G-tier shower. That's the only shower.
3 All the other showers are inside. You have a
4 cage. Shower. So, you have a cage where the
5 inmates inside the shower. This one, you can
6 actually see the shower because it's on the
7 outside. That's the only one because - excuse
8 me - that G-tier is made specifically for the
9 high-profile inmates.
10 : Okay.
11 : That's why it's made like
12 that.
13 : Now, based on, when you gave
14 the phone call to him, where was and
15 Noel? Where they at the G -? At the shower
16 area, or where they sitting --
17 : No.
18 : -- at the desk?
19 : They were sitting at the
20 desk.
21 : The desk. And what about
22
23 -: was with me. And
24 then, I told , I said, hey, just make
25 sure he gets off. He's internal now - so, he
EFTA00062107
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 probably went back to doing his internal
2 duties. Internal, any time they need an
3 inmate, that's his job to escort them back and
4 forth.
5 : And you left for the day,
6 after that?
7 : That is correct. At 7:00.
8 : Did you make any phone calls
9 back, to check in on them, and to verify that
10 Epstein was finishing his phone call?
11 : No.
12 : So, you just -. So, Noel
13 said that you spoke to her and said, hey, make
14 - hey, get that phone, his phone back after his
15 phone call is done.
16 : I remember speaking to her.
17 And I do. So, I don't know if I was, like, in
18 the car, in -. But I did ask her. I said,
19 hey, did you take the phone from the inmate?
20 And she said, yes.
21 : And that was that night,
22 before you left?
23 : That is correct.
24 : Okay. She said that
25 : So, it could have been --
EFTA00062108
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1 : -- she said that -.
2 : I could have been in the
3 institution, I could been outside of my car.
4 Or I could have been going on the train. But I
5 did contact her and say, yes. Did you make
6 sure you take him off the phone? Yes.
7 : Okay. She said you said,
8 hey, make sure you get that phone back from
9 him, because his time is up, and then, she
10 said, okay. And that's when she went and took
11 it back. Does that sound right?
12 : Yes.
13 : Okay. You want to ask
14 more about that comment? Why -? Is that why
15 you had contacted her, though, to make sure
16 that she -?
17 : That is correct. Because
18 don't want him going over that 15 minutes. I
19 mean, 16, 17 minutes, but to stay on the phone,
20 no.
21 : Okay.
22 : So, yeah. I would
23 : Okay.
24 : I would definitely want
25 to verify that.
EFTA00062109
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1 : Did you talk --
2 : (Indiscernible *00:31:45).
3 : -- was there anything,
4 any other conversations you had with her --
5 : No.
6 : -- with Noel?
7 : Not that I recall. It could
8 have, could have been. But all, the main thing
9 was to take him off the telephone.
10 : Okay. And you did that
11 from your car?
12 : My - yeah - my phone.
13 Either from the car or the train. I don't know
14 what I caught that day. But from my personal
15 phone.
16 : Okay. And do you
17 remember at all, around what time that would
18 have been?
19 : It could have been, if I
20 left at 7:00, it had to be no later than 7:00,
21 7:15.
22 : Okay.
23 : Yeah.
24 : Now, going back, I'm going to
25 read a part here. dialed the number,
EFTA00062110
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45
1 and a male picked up the phone." Being that,
2 when Epstein asked to make a phone call, he
3 said he was going to - he wanted to call his
4 mother.
5 : Mm-hmm.
6 : Did you verify who the person
7 was? Did you ask about his mother? Did you
8 ask to speak to a specific person? Identify
9 the person before you --
10 : I did not.
11 how come?
12 : I just didn't. And there
13 was no reason why I didn't. I just didn't.
14 : Because he was just - we have
15 to get clarification - because he asked for his
16 mother, but it was a male that picked up, and
17 it was, you know, contradictory to what he
18 requested, to who the phone was being handed
19 off to. That didn't. How come - I know you
20 didn't ask - but is there a reason? Normally,
21 do you verify if an inmate is talking to the
22 person that they have requested to speak to?
23 : I mean, do I verify?
24 There's not a lot of inmates that we do give
25 phone calls. So, let's say, if a dude said,
EFTA00062111
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1 hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick
2 up. Okay. How you doing? Because he's giving
3 me that number, and I'm verifying that that
4 number is on his - but which he don't, you
5 can't verify his numbers, because he don't have
6 an account. So, give him the phone, and that's
7 it. I don't Me verifying it, was it, you
8 know, was it something I should have done?
9 Yes. Was it something I did? No.
10 : Okay. And are inmates
11 allowed to call just anyone, or is there a
12 specific list of people that they are allowed
13 to call?
14 : Originally how it works is,
15 if an inmate is asking for, of course, his
16 mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he
17 wants to speak to, usually, it's not ever a
18 friend. It's usually immediate family members.
19 Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts,
20 whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone
21 list. But once again, how can an inmate have a
22 phone list when he has no account set up?
23 : So, the pack and pin, if he
24 set that up, would have had a phone list --
25 : That is -.
EFTA00062112
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1 : -- and certain people he
2 could have called?
3 : That is correct.
4 : Okay. You got anything on
5 that?
6 : I'll circle back, after
7 you finish your -.
8 : That's all on that topic.
9 : Oh, okay. Yeah. No.
10 So, I mean, I just want to get more
11 clarification.
12 : Mm-hmm.
13 : When you said that you
14 gave him the phone call, and then, did you
15 inform Noel and , with present, or
16 did you say for one, or the other, or who did
17 you say, make sure this phone call ends in 15
18 minutes?
19 : All three of them was there.
20 When I --
21 : All three.
22 : -- when I actually told
23 them, because remember, brought him up
24 with me.
25 : Right.
EFTA00062113
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1 : And I said, you guys, just
2 make sure it's 15 minutes and that's it. 10-4.
3 And that's the reason why I made that phone
4 call. But I made it to the SHU. So, whoever
5 would have answered it, it either would have
6 been or Noel. It wouldn't have been
7 because he's internal.
8 : All right. So, you
9 didn't -. So, I thought the way that you
10 answered it was that you told make sure
11 it ends in 15 minutes. But you would have told
12 Noel or
13 : Pretty much everybody.
14 : Okay.
15 : Everybody was there when I
16 said --
17 : Okay.
18 : -- make sure he's off in 15
19 minutes. Everybody was there.
20 : Okay.
21 : Because when you talking to
22
23 : But because --
24 : -- as I'm talking -
25 was internal,
EFTA00062114
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1 he wouldn't stay that 15 minutes.
2 : Right.
3 : Right?
4 : So, let's say, right now,
5 and I'm saying, hey, you guys make sure it's
6 all - he's there, and the desk is only over
7 there, so, everybody knows, hey, you guys, make
8 sure he's off. Even if I told
9 specifically, I told - they all knew, because I
10 said, hey, make sure he's off in 15 minutes.
11 And that's the reason why I called SHU back.
12 Because I know I can get into SHU. Like, if I
13 call back, I couldn't get because he's
14 all over the building.
15 : So, that's where I was
16 just wanted to verify. It was more, like, you
17 told Noel and was present and a
18 witness.
19 : That is correct.
20 : Okay. So, it was
21 addressed to Noel and
22 : That is correct.
23 -- who worked in the SHU.
24 : That is correct.
25 : Okay. And then, you
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1 just, and what caused you - if you told them
2 that there - what caused you to follow up with
3 them in the car?
4 : And that was just me, where
5 let's say you have officers - it was only two.
6 And I don't know how many inmates we had at the
7 time, but we had several. This is not
8 midnight. So, me personally, they should have
9 more officers in there. So, they could have
10 got busy.
11 : Sure.
12 : It could have been a use of
13 force. IT could have been anything. So, what
14 if those inmates still got the phone? So, at
15 least they could have went down there, pulled
16 the - all they have to do is pull the jack out.
17 There was nothing else they can do.
18 : Okay.
19 : So, I just wanted to make
20 sure that was done.
21 : Mm-hmm.
22 : Because I didn't want him to
23 stay on that phone.
24 : Now, would it --
25 : Over 15 minutes.
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1 would it typically be
2 - and I understand what you're saying, it
3 sounds like MCC kind of wasn't doing things
4 right - but per BOP, should have you, as the
5 unit manager, been the person that, if you
6 provided the telephone call, you should have
7 actually sat there and monitored it?
8 : Yes. And that's what I went
9 over with you guys, the proper way to make a
10 phone call --
11 : Right.
12 : -- if he wanted that phone
13 call, is the inmate come out. He wouldn't be
14 in the shower.
15 : Right.
16 : The inmate come out. The
17 inmate go to, let's say, an area, and you put
18 it on speaker.
19 : So, that's the proper
20 way. So, why --
21 : That is the proper way.
22 : -- wasn't it -. And
23 just, we have to cover this.
24 : Yeah.
25 : Why wasn't it that proper
EFTA00062117
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1 way done?
2 : Shortness of staff. Due to
3 the shortness of staff. And why didn't he -
4 and I always ask the question - why didn't he -
5 what was so special? - why didn't he have a
6 pack and pin set up? Every inmate in the BOP
7 has always had a pen and a pack set up.
8 : Okay.
9 : So, my question, my question
10 to myself is, why is he the only one?
11 : Sure.
12 : And he's not endogen.
13 : Now, going back to
14 According to you said he spoke
15 with you in the elevator, and that you said,
16 yeah, go ahead, give him his phone call. But
17 make sure it's monitored and logged. Do you
18 remember that -?
19 : In the book. Yes.
20 : So, when he said, make
21 sure it's monitored and logged, wouldn't that
22 have been, like, make sure you stay with him
23 while it's going on?
24 : No. Monitor and log is just
25 make sure we had a logbook that it was actually
EFTA00062118
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1 logged in a phone logbook. And at the time,
2 they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was
3 aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there,
4 they didn't have. We made, like, I recently
5 made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that
6 myself because I know what was - what we was
7 doing in other prisons. They didn't have one
8 here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And
9 it wasn't after Epstein.
10 I just said, if we're giving inmates legal
11 calls, we need to have that documented, and so
12 an inmate - let's say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and
13 BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I
14 never got this call. Same thing with social
15 calls. Social calls have to be logged in the
16 book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print
17 the data off and say, okay, you made a 15
18 minute phone, but we should be logging it in
19 because it should be also the person who's
20 giving that inmate that phone call.
21 : So, was that phone call
22 logged, then?
23 : No.
24 : Okay. So, it wasn't
25 logged, and it wasn't monitored. Okay. As far
EFTA00062119
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1 as who he spoke with, do you know who he spoke
2 with?
3 : I do not.
4 : No. Okay. All right.
5 Do you want to talk about the memo?
6 : Yeah. Going back, you said
7 that he requested multiple times --
8 : Mm-hmm.
9 -- for his pack and pen to be
10 set up. Not to you, but to other people. Do
11 you know who he requested that to?
12 : He requested it to me, but
13 he told me numerous times that he actually was
14 unit team. The only unit team he had at the
15 time was Unit Manager was the
16 counselor. That was . And who
17 else was it? I don't think had -. I
18 think she had . There was one more
19 person. I'm trying to think who else she had
20 under her. . Oh. And I'm want -. I
21 want to say (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:46). i
22 don't know if he was under her. I know she had
23 two people under her.
24 : Okay.
25 : But that was their
EFTA00062120
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1 responsibility to set that up. And let's say -
2 I'll give you a good example - let's use R.
3 Kelly. All right? He's in my unit now. Okay?
4 So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new
5 guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going
6 to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and
7 pin. That's something they're going to do.
8 Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It
9 doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line.
10 He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He
11 set it up the same way.
12 So, saying that is how long do we have
13 Epstein, and it wasn't set up? So, it should
14 have been set up from the beginning. So, we
15 wouldn't have this problem where, okay, an
16 inmate is entitled to call his family member or
17 whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So,
18 that's besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm
19 not going to sit there and sugar coat it and
20 say, hey, I should have sat right there, but
21 even sitting right there, what can I heard him
22 say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever.
23 And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have
24 pulled him out and put him in this area, and
25 put it on speaker.
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1 But once again, we're talking about 80
2 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you
3 know, it should be four officers, instead of
4 that. But it's two officers. So, there was a
5 lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going
6 around. I'm not putting that on nobody. This
7 is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not
8 speaking about anybody else. So, once I
9 realized a lot of stuff was going on, and
10 that's not just because of his death, it's
11 things that I know that should be happening. I
12 put those things in place at MCC because it
13 wasn't happening.
14 I did those. I'm the one who put a green
15 book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I
16 did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do
17 it. I just knew it was the right thing to do.
18 I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the
19 com shop, and told him, take the legal line
20 out. And it wasn't just because of Epstein.
21 It was because a lot of inmates were
22 manipulating staff to give them the legal line,
23 to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate
24 is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or
25 another inmate? And it wasn't monitored. So,
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1 I saw that, and I'm the one who did that.
2 : Well, I'm glad you said
3 that, because that's - from my understanding
4 the reason why it's supposed to be monitored
5 and verified who they're talking about, is
6 because hits on other inmates --
7 : That is correct.
8 : -- or being able to run
9 an organization from within the institution.
10 : That is correct.
11 : So, and that's why,
12 unfortunately, this becomes a little bit more
13 of a serious matter.
14 : And I get it.
15 : Okay.
16 : I have - once again - I have
17 no excuse. I get it. And maybe I was one of
18 those who fell into the thing, what MCC was
19 doing, but I still know better.
20 : Okay.
21 : Because I have 27 years in.
22 : And when you corrected
23 the problem, that was - it sounds like - after
24 Epstein.
25 : Of course.
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1 : Okay. Do you know how
2 long after?
3 : What's that? What he, in
4 October, or --
5 : August.
6 : -- August?
7 : Yeah. August. Augu.7-
8 10t is when.
9 : I'm going to say the
10 beginning - me - the beginning of 2020.
11 : Okay.
12 : Because at MCC, it takes,
13 it's not something you, like, you go to people,
14 and you say - and you know right from wrong -
15 and you go, hey, you know, I know everything is
16 a little salty now. People running around. I
17 know it's crazy. But you go to these people.
18 Hey, communication. Because that's who has a
19 door. Hey, we need to take these legal lines
20 out. Okay. I'm good with that. Let's get
21 with -. So, get with the associate warden,
22 hey, associate warden. And I'm putting this in
23 emails. I'm not just, you know, hey, we need
24 to get rid of this stuff.
25 : Right.
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1 : Because it's bad for staff
2 down there. Okay. Get with this person. Get
3 with that person. Vice versa. It's just a lot
4 of back and forth. So, it took, you know,
5 you're trying to get this stuff done, and
6 they're acting like it's the hardest thing to
7 do. Communication staff is telling me, it
8 could happen like that. I could just snap a
9 wire, that legal line is gone. Come to find
10 out, when it was finally approved, that's all
11 it took. Just like that.
12 : And then, as far as, you
13 said, that it seems like it was kind of common
14 practice at the time, that, like, people were
15 just putting inmates on legal lines. Was that
16 happening a lot, then, around that time?
17 : All the time.
18 : All the time.
19 : All the time.
20 : So, was that Now, who
21 was Were you also one of the ones that was
22 constantly providing -?
23 : No. The only call I gave an
24 inmate was Epstein, during that time. If I
25 ever gave an inmate - once again - a call,
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1 let's say to his mother, I would have to go
2 through the warden. Like, if you on phone
3 restriction, I would not. I would just be,
4 like, hey, warden. You know, they asking the
5 warden. She's the warden. They would sign a
6 cop out. She would say, , make sure
7 this inmate gets his phone call. She would
8 follow up, and say the next day, hey, Mr.
9 , did you give this inmate the phone
10 call? Yes, ma'am, I did.
11 : And when you're talking
12 about a female. Who is it that you are
13 speaking of?
14 : Warden
15 : Okay.
16 : The warden.
17 : Like, but at that time,
18 was it , right?
19 -: was, at the time,
20 well, this is -. never told me to give
21 an inmate --
22 : Okay.
23 a phone.
24 : So, you're talking after
25
EFTA00062126
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1 : That is correct.
2 : Okay.
3 : Because inmates would ask
4 her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again,
5 inmates can ask for anything you want. If
6 that's just, like, if your visit has been taken
7 for a year. They have the right to ask for a
8 special visit.
9 : Mm-hmm.
10 : The special visit is
11 approved by who? The warden. Typically, the
12 warden just usually don't. They have to be
13 really an emergency, somebody is dying, or
14 something. But if you've been sanctioned, and
15 if you read the policy, the only person who
16 really can do that is the regional DHO, but
17 under, of course, the warden, because that's
18 her jail, or that's his jail, or whoever the
19 warden is. They can do it. But they would
20 have to - you would have to put it in the memo
21 form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day.
22 So, special visits never happen, but --
23 : Sure.
24 : -- the phone calls did.
25 : So, in the phone calls,
EFTA00062127
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1 though, it sounds like they were happening, not
2 only prior to Epstein, but also following
3 Epstein's discovery on August 9th.
4 : Mm-hmm.
5 : So, staff members were -.
6 And that's in the SHU, as well?
7 : That's the only way On
8 the outside, we never did it on that. We don't
9 have to do it on the outside. This was mainly
10 inmates in SHU. These are all inmates in SHU.
11 : Oh, so, you're speaking
12 specifically to the SHU, and the G-tier shower?
13 : No. Remember. They had the
14 legal line. I put him in the G-tier because
15 the whole phone couldn't reach.
16 : Okay.
17 : So, I did that as a security
18 breach of this inmate can't do nothing to
19 himself, or whoever. I knew who he was. But
20 as far as on the tiers, they had legal lines on
21 every tier. Between every cell. So, if I had
22 went to -. I can go downstairs, plug this
23 phone in, and give it to an inmate.
24 : And that's what they were
25 doing?
EFTA00062128
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1 : Yup.
2 : So, they were just
3 plugging it in --
4 : Everybody was doing it.
5 : -- okay. So, you chose
6 to put him in the G-tier shower. Other staff
7 members are just giving it to him on any legal
8 line? And that's for other inmates.
9 : It was constant. And it was
10 nothing I mean, so, I requested that
11 because it was putting staff in a bind. My
12 thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying,
13 like, these are young staff. You know, some
14 staff got, you know, once you get your year,
15 you can go to SHU. They don't know no better.
16 Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it
17 in the social line. Right? And let's say you
18 got a staff that's down there, and the inmate
19 go, hold that, my phone's not working. It says
20 social and legal.
21 So, you know the difference. And then, he
22 takes it out of social and plug it. So, it
23 might not be typically that staff member. It
24 could be another staff member taking it out and
25 putting it there. So, that's why I said, okay,
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1 let's get rid of it. What they did was, they
2 did a quick fix. They put tape around it.
3 Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What's
4 putting tape around it? Anybody could take off
5 the tape.
6 : Right.
7 : And it was happening. So,
8 tape is coming off. Then they tried to put
9 puddy in it. That didn't work. So,
10 eventually, they did exactly what I asked them
11 to do. There was only one line you could plug
12 in. And that was your phone call. That's it.
13 All legal lines was put in the back of the
14 visit room, where you have to have a staff
15 member present at that time.
16 : In the SHU visiting room?
17 : Yes. And that --
18 : Okay.
19 : -- the only person that will
20 be is that will be unit team.
21 : Okay. And how did you
22 know that the staff members were providing
23 inmates with these calls?
24 : Let's say I'm doing my
25 rounds. I'm doing my unit manager rounds. All
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1 right? I'm doing my unit manager rounds. I'm
2 doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the
3 difference between the cord, and you go, what's
4 this guy on right here? Oh, he's on a social
5 call. No, he's not on a social call. He's on
6 the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, I
7 would go over there, and of course, I catch
8 problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I
9 don't have no minutes. You don't have no
10 minutes. You shouldn't -. You're on phone
11 restriction. It's a lot. Now, it becomes a
12 problem where, guess what? The inmate acts
13 out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many
14 phones we've replaced in there? Listen. It
15 was a lot.
16 : Okay.
17 : Like I said, me personally,
18 I would never make an excuse for myself. You
19 know? Regardless of the fact, the years that I
20 have in, I should have did it the right way.
21 There is no way for me, myself, to fall into
22 MCC's trap, which I did. And it caused me to
23 be right here today. So, I would never make an
24 excuse for that.
25 : Okay.
EFTA00062131
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1 : I just want to clarify.
2 Based on the question I asked, based on your
3 conversation with Epstein, he said that he
4 requested pack and pin from and
5 multiple times, but it was just never set up.
6 : That is correct.
7 : Okay.
8 : Yeah. And on that note,
9 you had mentioned I don't think
10 was a counselor at that time.
11 : And that's what I'm saying.
12 He probably was a lieutenant.
13 : Oh, yeah.
14 : And then, went to Arai
15 that's what I said. It's been so long. 1
16 don't know who. But I know she had other
17 people under her. I know it was She did
18 have a case manager, , but she left.
19 : Okay.
20 : At that time. So, she's no
21 longer there.
22 : Okay. And just to touch
23 on, this is kind of off the topic, but you
24 mentioned unit manager rounds. What is that?
25 Is that like a lieutenant round?
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1 : No. So, what we do is, unit
2 team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We
3 go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't
4 know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that
5 we sign in.
6 : Mm-hmm.
7 : You go in. You sign in.
8 Put the time you in. And then, whenever you
9 come out. So, we would go there, and we would
10 run a roster with all of our inmates. 11
11 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom.
12 Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your
13 unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need?
14 They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I
15 want a phone call. Okay. You on phone
16 restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next
17 validation date? And a lot of those guys were
18 legit. Oh, by validation.
19 So, they can really make a phone call.
20 So, I don't know why they wasn't getting phone
21 calls. But then, I found out a lot, they
22 didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere
23 I've been, it's a SHU schedule. Monday, this
24 range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can
25 get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay,
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1 Mondays, we don't use the phone. It's just us
2 going to use the phone. And that should have
3 been set up that way.
4 Once again, I set that up. I did. I
5 didn't have to. But I did it because I thought
6 it was just right for the inmates, and for the
7 staff. This way, they're not, okay, they're
8 giving this inmate a phone call today.
9 Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next
10 day. And this becomes where the inmates are
11 actually running the phones the way they want
12 to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should
13 be giving this range on Monday, and that should
14 be every Monday.
15 If this dude is validated, and he can get
16 a phone call, he should get a phone call.
17 Leave it on that range, put it in the social
18 line, he can only make - at that time - you can
19 only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would
20 cut off no matter what. So, you can go down
21 there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you
22 knew that the phone call was over. You knew it
23 was over. It was done. Take it, give it to
24 the next person.
25 : Mm-hmm.
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1 : So, it was a lot that MCC
2 had backwards. They just came up with the
3 phones where you wheel the real phones, the way
4 it's supposed to be. The actual phone that
5 they have on the phone, but they have it on a
6 stand. You wheel it over there. You open the
7 slot. You leave the slot open. The inmate
8 down, and the only thing he can have is that.
9 We had the old phones where you're giving an
10 inmate the whole phone, put the wire in the
11 thing, and locks the slot. Now, the inmate has
12 a phone.
13 : So, with the unit team
14 round, do you go around to each one of the
15 inmates --
16 : Each cell. And I look for
17 my inmates. And let's say --
18 : -- oh, so, you only have
19 certain inmates that you're going to?
20 : -- right. Let's say I had
21 12 - no, but I'm doing rounds in an entire
22 tier, because what if another inmate from
23 says, hey, I need a BP-8. I'm still writing
24 that down. And I will email later and
25 say - because we do the same thing here - we
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1 email every unit team, hey, this inmate had an
2 issue, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would
3 address it whenever they do their SHU rounds.
4 So, our job is to go to every cell. Not just
5 our inmates. But I ran a roster so I can know
6 who my inmates is, but our job as a unit team
7 go to every cell.
8 : So --
9 : Not just our inmates.
10 : -- two questions on that.
11 Is a lieutenant round supposed to be done the
12 same way, where they're going to every cell?
13 : A lieutenant round on each
14 shift is the same way, where they're supposed
15 to go to every cell. Look in the window. And
16 we And now, this, when we was doing, take
17 your streams now, do this, if an inmate is not
18 moving --
19 : Okay.
20 : -- hit the light. Make sure
21 inmates living and breathing. Yes. That's a
22 lieutenants' round.
23 : So, a lieutenant round
24 does actually consist of going to every cell --
25 : Every cell.
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1 : -- not just checking in
2 with the --
3 : No.
4 : -- staff members to see
5 if they're doing it.
6 : That's the last thing.
7 That's the last thing they do. Our job, even
8 when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing
9 unit. In the housing unit, you don't have to
10 go every cell in the housing unit because it's
11 not the SHU. They're out. But you should go
12 to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and
13 you check, and you're making sure. How you
14 know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check
15 and you looking at, you looking into the cell.
16 How you know an inmate don't have his window
17 covered? Why you got your window covered?
18 Open the door. So, yes. But in SHU, it's
19 every cell.
20 : Okay. So, the lieutenant
21 does a round. Has to check every cell.
22 : The same thing as unit team.
23 : All right. And then
24 that's every shift needed to do that, too.
25 Correct?
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1 : Day watch, evening watch,
2 and morning watch.
3 : Is that unit team, as
4 well?
5 : Unit team has to do it -. A
6 unit team has to do rounds once a day.
7 : Once every 24 hours.
8 : Right.
9 : Okay.
10 : But remember, that's the
11 unit team. So, that means it wasn't just me.
12 It was me. . And (Phonetic Sp.
13 *00:54:21).
14 : Okay.
15 : And then -.
16 : So, each one of them has
17 to do it?
18 : That is correct.
19 : Okay.
20 : Until they changed our
21 They just changed our unit manager's manual
22 that says a unit team. Which means, now, I
23 could do rounds for everybody. I can do rounds
24 for . I could do rounds for . And
25 just have to send them the information here.
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1 So, I can do rounds for them. That's in the
2 new unit manager's manual.
3 : Now, aside from phone
4 calls, what is a unit team member, or manager,
5 checking in with the inmates on? What is the,
6 like, what is the goal of checking in with the
7 inmates?
8 : We're doing is reports. So,
9 disciplinary action. So, we go there. An
10 inmate has -. That's why he's in SHU.
11 Disciplinary action. So, we do incident
12 reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot
13 of inmates from visiting can't set up their
14 visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So,
15 they would have to fill out a form, who they
16 want. And then, we take that form and send it
17 to trust fund, who they would then add those
18 names to the visiting list. But they would
19 have to already be in the inmates' central
20 file, if it's on those. So, we do visiting,
21 incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate
22 remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And
23 listen to their problems. So, that's why we
24 had to go to SHU every day.
25 : Now, did you have
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1 anything to do with, like, cellmates?
2 : No. The only time we would
3 get involved with cellmate is when it was just,
4 like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So,
5 if the psychologist says, this person needs a
6 cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an
7 inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an
8 inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know
9 four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would
10 be, like, this is a good fit for him.
11 If this guy is a sex offender, and he's
12 not a sex offender predator, he's just a sex
13 offender. And he shouldn't be with nobody who
14 is a predator. He can be with another sex
15 offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who
16 is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like,
17 you know what? I know him. He used to be in
18 my unit. So, I would give them, like, the
19 psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell
20 with this inmate.
21 So, yes, we would have input, as far as
22 that, because we know the inmates. The unit
23 team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like,
24 the captain, for him to know an inmate, even
25 though he's doing his rounds, he don't know the
EFTA00062140
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1 inmate more than unit team. So, yes, we would
2 have input to psychology, and we did have input
3 of who could go in with Epstein. We did have
4 input.
5 : Oh, you did? Did you,
6 yourself, have input?
7 : No. That was then.
8 . Okay.
9 : Yeah.
10 : But you're the one who
11 brought him back that day. So, at that time,
12 around 7:00 p.m., did you notice that his
13 cellmate was not there?
14 : I knew his cellmate was in
15 court first thing in the morning. And
16 everybody did.
17 : Well, that's the
18 interesting thing, because he wasn't in court.
19 He was transferred.
20 : Right. But originally, his
21 cellmate would do the same thing, go to court,
22 whatever. But remember, I don't do the SENTRY
23 transactions.
24 : Okay.
25 : So, we was told he went to
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1 court. Right? So --
2 : Who told everybody that?
3 Because in the court list, it said WAS, and it
4 was transferred to GO.
5 : WAB is court.
6 : WAB is With All
7 Belongings.
8 : Mm-hmm.
9 : Court is court.
10 : Right. But they Here,
11 they call - and once again, this is my first
12 high rise, first pre-trial --
13 : Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14 : -- when they say an inmate
15 is WAB, this is me. I've never been to a high-
16 rise. So, I'm thinking, okay, he goes to
17 court, and then he gets transferred. That's
18 me. And that's my honest truth. Like, I don't
19 know what WA -. I don't know what that means.
20 So, people would say, oh, his cellee is out in
21 court. I mean, his cellee is out in court.
22 Okay. That doesn't mean, because his cellee is
23 out in court, he still needs a cellmate.
24 : Wow.
25 : And the thing --
EFTA00062142
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1 : That's - it could be
2 still out at court, though, at 7:00.
3 : Okay. Then here's the
4 thing. Okay. Let's say your inmate is out in
5 court. Okay? And typically, the right way.
6 And I will say this about MCC. How they was
7 doing this. Now, we didn't have that -. We
8 have the holding cells now. We didn't have
9 them before. They just put them there. I
10 guess after this incident. But you would then
11 - me personally - I would then put that inmate,
12 and that inmate was in a good area, with
13 officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put
14 that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that
15 cell. But I would - me personally - I would
16 probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute
17 round, and that's just me, until his cellmate
18 get there.
19 : So, who was it that
20 actually put Epstein in his cell?
21 : I wasn't there.
22 : Oh, so, when you came
23 back from 7:00, at 7:00 p.m. with him --
24 : Hmm.
25 : -- you weren't there when
EFTA00062143
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1 he was actually placed in the cell?
2 : No. I wasn't there.
3 : All right. So, did you
4 even know that the cellmate wasn't in there,
5 then? You knew - you said - you knew he was at
6 court. But, like, you said everybody knew.
7 : At 7:00, he didn't have a
8 cellmate. I knew his cellmate was not there.
9 I knew that.
10 : So, and you knew he
11 wasn't coming back at that point?
12 : I didn't know.
13 : Oh.
14 : I didn't know. I honestly
15 didn't know.
16 : Okay.
17 : I just know that he wasn't
18 there. And my thing is, I thought he was in
19 court. And I know dudes can come back 8:00,
20 9:00 at night. So, that was my thing. But at
21 the same time, I knew he still should have had
22 a cellmate.
23 : Right.
24 : It don't matter. Let's say
25 you don't have a cellmate. Once again, if your
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1 celimate is in court, it's just up here, just
2 like I'm not taking excuses for what I did.
3 You know he's suspect. Everybody knows that.
4 Okay. So, if you're going to put him there,
5 there's a couple of ways you can do it. I will
6 put him there and say, okay, guess what? We're
7 doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back
8 from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the
9 best thing going, going right now. That I've
10 seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him
11 in there.
12 : Right.
13 : Leave him in R&D.
14 : So, was it a conversation
15 at all when you came back with, okay, where is
16 his cellmate?
17 : I didn't. I don't typically
18 ask for a celimate. I basically -. The only
19 thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to
20 have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with
21 a cellmate.
22 : No, no, no. I mean, on
23 that 7:00 p.m., on August 9th, 2019 --
24 : Mm-hmm.
25 : -- when you came back.
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1 Was that a conversation within the SHU, with
2 , Noel. Was it
3 -:
4 . No.
5 : Oh, was the --
6 : Yeah.
7
8 : -- yeah.
9 : Okay. Was that a
10 conversation that was had at all?
11 : I don't - me. It's been too
12 long - I don't recall. But I know for a fact
13 that an inmate should have a cellmate, but like
14 I said, if he's to in court -.
15 : But that wasn't your
16 purview, though? Or was that?
17 : I'm not sure.
18 : Okay.
19 : I can't recall.
20 : So, as far as going back,
21 I thought you said everybody knew he was at
22 court. So, our understanding, through talking
23 with R&D, and other lieutenants and officers,
24 was you get the court list, the court
25 production list, it will say, like, you know,
EFTA00062146
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1 Reyes, court --
2 : Mm-hmm.
3 : -- that means he went to
4 court, and he's coming back.
5 : Mm-hmm.
6 : If it says Reyes, WAB,
7 that means you know he's leaving the
8 institution. He's not coming back.
9 : Well, who gets that court
10 list?
11 : The SHU staff members.
12 The lieutenants. Sorry. I'm just --
13 : The SHU don't get it.
14 : -- well, SHU gets it
15 because they have to produce those individuals.
16 So, they get it so that they know who to
17 produce.
18 : So, which court list are you
19 talking about? The one that's created by R&D,
20 or the list that R&D receives?
21 : So, R&D creates one, and
22 provides it to the housing units so that they
23 can produce their inmates.
24 : Okay. But they put it on
25 the computer. It's not -. It's something.
EFTA00062147
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1 It's something that they would not print.
2 : Now, internal has a
3 printed copy, and they go --
4 : That is correct.
5 : -- right, and they
6 provide it to the housing units.
7 : For court. Yes. That is
8 correct.
9 : Well, for WAB and court.
10 : That is correct.
11 : All right.
12 : Yes. They have that in the
13 morning. Yes.
14 : So, if in this instance,
15 Reyes was on there, but it was listed as WAS --
16 : Mm-hmm.
17 : -- not court, there are
18
19 : Right.
20 : -- individuals that are
21 listed as court, but he was listed as WAB.
22 : That is correct.
23 : So, what you're saying is
24 that, what was your understanding of the WAB?
25 : Court. Because - and the
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1 reason why - is because I didn't see the list.
2 : Okay.
3 : Right? So, we're hearing,
4 you just mentioned just now, that he was WAB.
5 We're hearing, oh, his cellee is in court. So,
6 that's all I remember, all day, because the
7 main thing was him coming back, his cellmate
8 coming back.
9 : And that was spoken
10 about?
11 : Yeah.
12 : That he was in court?
13 : Yeah.
14 : And coming back?
15 : Because had not -. Let's
16 say I come in at 11:00 to 7:00, right, I'm the
17 duty officer.
18 : Mm-hmm.
19 : And let's say I know he's
20 down there talking to his attorney, and I knew
21 I had actual - and regardless of the fact, now,
22 this, I won't do - if I know an inmate needs a
23 cellmate, and his cellmate didn't go to court,
24 I, as the duty officer, would ensure that he
25 move with somebody. I promise you that.
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1 That's just -. I do it right now. I do it
2 now. When I have an inmate right now, in our
3 suicide watch.
4 (Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he
5 comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I
6 would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee.
7 If he don't find a cellee, and then I'm
8 interviewing that cellee, I need to find out
9 what kind of cellmate he's putting in there
10 with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy
11 -. But I've done it. And that's something I
12 will never go against, where if I know an
13 inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to
14 make sure he has a cellmate.
15 : So, on this note, whereas
16 Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his
17 cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was,
18 early in the morning, you know, leaves the
19 institution, listed on the court production
20 list as WAB. In your unit manager experience,
21 who was responsible for saying, he's WAB, he's
22 not going to court, he's WAS, he's transferring
23 from here, and there is emails from the U.S.
24 Marshal Service that clearly show, the day
25 before, that he is transferring to GO.
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1 : Mm-hmm.
2 : Whose ultimately
3 responsibility was that, at that point?
4 : R&D, and this is, R&D is
5 responsible for saying, okay, he's WAS, he's
6 transferring. Once again, I never knew what
7 WAS is. I don't. This is my - like I said -
8 this is my first high rise.
9 : Okay.
10 : So, he goes out or whatever.
11 It's R&D's responsibility to say, hey, this guy
12 is WAB. He's not coming back. He getting
13 transferred or whatever. Also, too, if that
14 was my inmate. So, I'm not sure even
15 received something saying that he don't have a
16 celimate. So, at that time, if did
17 receive something, because they would have sent
18 it to me if he was my inmate. been there
19 forever. She knows. She knows. She's been
20 the unit manager. She's been the case manager
21 there. So, she would know, okay, you don't got
22 no cellmate. She could have got with a
23 psychologist and said, hey, you know, Epstein's
24 celimate left at 9:00 in the morning, or 8:00
25 in the morning.
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1 : So, would it be --
2 : He needs a cellmate.
3 : -- so, would it have been
4 actual responsibility, it seems like?
5 : It would have been two
6 responsibilities. R&D first, and then, if they
7 sent it to yes, to say to
8 psychologist, hey, his cellmate left. He needs
9 a cellee. Then once we tell psychology, it is
10 then psychology's responsibility to go to the
11 captain and say, hey, this guy needs a
12 cellmate.
13 : Okay. So, it wasn't,
14 like, the SHU staff members, or the operations
15 lieutenant, it was actually the unit manager
16 who was responsible for that individual?
17 : It goes from R&D, who they
18 Let's say they send the list, and the
19 lieutenant gets it, too.
20 : Do you know who -.
21 Sorry. is Epstein's guy. Who was Reyes'
22 guy?
23 : He had to be because
24 he wasn't mine. I know who Reyes is, but he
25 wasn't mine.
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1 : And where is
2 do you know?
3 : She is - she's working from
4 the house - but she does here, right here.
5 What's this -? MCC. The CCM office.
6 : What is that?
7 : It's this office. That's.
8 Okay, you know --
9 : Yeah, right here --
10 where this building
11 -- at the MDC?
12 yeah. The CCM office is
13 on the east building.
14 : Oh, the one next to the Third
15 Avenue?
16 : Yeah.
17 : Okay.
18 : So --
19 : Well, what's her -?
20 : -- but she works from home.
21 : What is her position now?
22 : CCM. I think she's -. I
23 think she's I want to -. She's an 11. So,
24 she took a bus down from --
25 : And what are you, a 12?
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1 : -- yeah. We were both 12s.
2 and she saw an opportunity had opened because
3 she just lost her father. Her mother is sick.
4 So, she basically -. So, she works -. She
5 works out of home. I think she has to report
6 there once a week, or once a month. But yeah,
7 she works out of home.
8 : Right.
9 : But she still works for the
10 BOP.
11 : So, your unit team
12 experience tells you that the actual way it
13 should have worked, and the ideal circumstance,
14 was R&D should have told her, she should have
15 told the captain.
16 : That is correct. Or, and it
17 could have been, let's say, everybody gets this
18 list. I know I will get it. So,
19 captain. So, let's say the captain, or the
20 lieutenant's office get it. The lieutenant's
21 office, they get it because they know all the
22 transfers. They know who is leaving. They
23 could have known, hey, this guy is leaving.
24 They could have notified psychology. Anyone of
25 us has supervisors, who had that list, should
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1 have notified psychology in the morning. It
2 could have been -.
3 : Is there one group that
4 should have, though, versus could have?
5 Because if R&D is giving that list to
6 everybody, is there one, is there one group,
7 either unit team, or ops lieutenant --
8 : The person I'm going to put,
9 that if they had a SHU lieutenant, it's going
10 to be the SHU lieutenant.
11 : Right.
12 : Because the SHU lieutenant,
13 like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a
14 lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU
15 lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this
16 list, you know, this guy leaving. He don't got
17 no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I
18 already know, Epstein is in court, while he's
19 downstairs, right? He probably be down there
20 until about, let's say 7:00, 8:00. Before he
21 come up here, he have a cellmate. That's
22 automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU
23 lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn't
24 there, it's the operations lieutenant. Who
25 would then notify the captain and psychology,
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1 hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which
2 then, if they would have did it early enough,
3 when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have
4 went back in that cell, and he would have had a
5 cellmate.
6 : Absolutely. So, the
7 actual way it should have worked is, the SHU
8 lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the
9 captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the
10 captain.
11 : That is correct. It's never
12 our responsibility. Because that inmate, he
13 belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain.
14 SHU is the captain. That's the captain's baby.
15 If you got a SHU lieutenant, it's the SHU
16 lieutenants. That's mines. So, I know all my
17 inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the
18 cellmate left. Okay. Let's get the cellmate
19 for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, Reyes
20 left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay.
21 Let's make sure we don't pick somebody like
22 Tartaglione, or somebody else who's going to,
23 you know what I mean? Get accused of doing
24 something. Okay. We'll pick a cellmate.
25 : So, two things off that.
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1 One, so, when you previously said that it
2 should have been R&D to to the
3 captain, are you kind of re-thinking that?
4 : R&D, at least to the SHU
5 lieutenant. Everything going to be SHU
6 lieutenant or captain.
7 : And in this case, the SHU
8 lieutenant is not there.
9 : Operations.
10 : So, you're saying R&D
11 should have told operations?
12 : I'm quite sure they did.
13 Remember, everything goes to operations because
14
15 : Well, yeah, yeah, they
16 got the list. So, all --
17 : Right.
18 : -- these people get
19 lists.
20 : Right.
21 : So, where does the unit -
22 ? So, are you thinking the unit team actually
23 doesn't fall into that notification --
24 : We don't.
25 : -- versus not?
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1 : We don't. But let's say, if
2 - and the reason why I say we don't, but we
3 still do - let's say, if I knew it was my
4 inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and
5 then, I'm going to give you an example. All
6 these guys that's come in over here, right?
7 get the list in the morning. They come here
8 every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they're
9 going into quarantine unit. So, the process
10 here, I had to find out the process when I got
11 here. I get the list.
12 (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is
13 over there, she does all the bed assignments.
14 So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed
15 assignments, because technically, they are my
16 inmates, I do their assignments. So, long
17 story short, she says to us, she does it
18 because she only have 20 inmates. She's been
19 doing since she's been here. Okay. So, that's
20 something less I have to do. But I still have
21 to make sure those inmates, because they come
22 into my unit, all the cells are working. All
23 the lights are working in the cell.
24 Everything.
25 So, that's my responsibility. That is my
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1 responsibility. That is my unit. It's still
2 can fall on the unit team, but is it our
3 responsibility? I would say no, because SHU
4 belongs to the SHU lieutenant. Really, the
5 captain, who belongs to the SHU lieutenant,
6 then operations.
7 : SO --
8 : That's how it really goes.
9 : -- do you think, though,
10 that has any responsibility for notifying
11 that Reyes left, and knowing that Reyes was
12 Epstein's -?
13 : I wouldn't put it on - and
14 I'm not just saying this because even if it was
15 me - that's not my responsibility. Like, it's
16 not onto me, because that inmate is in SHU. If
17 he's in my unit, yes. Like, we do have inmates
18 in their units who can't be by themselves, too.
19 : Okay.
20 : That's my responsibility.
21 He's in SHU. That's the captain's
22 responsibility.
23 : Okay. And then, the
24 second follow up to that, was you mentioned
25 Tartaglione, and the things that, you know,
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1 were being talked about. What is your
2 understanding of what happened with Epstein and
3 Tartaglione?
4 : The only thing I remember is
5 - and this is when I first met Tartaglione.
6 didn't know anything about him. I didn't know
7 his background. Anything. It was just
8 alleged, and this is something that I heard,
9 that he choked Epstein out. That's the only
10 thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS
11 investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and
12 that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit,
13 like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever.
14 He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was
15 trying to get to me, caught up, I don't get
16 into that. I was, like, whatever. He was
17 just, like, no, I never did that. And you
18 think I would do something like that? And I'm
19 working on my case? All right. No problem.
20 Never, ever talked about them again.
21 : So --
22 : That was it.
23 did you ever kind of
24 reconcile that, that you heard, maybe,
25 Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus,
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1 did you also hear that Epstein tried to commit
2 suicide?
3 : The only thing I heard, and
4 like I said, was the Tartaglione thing, because
5 I knew it was an investigation. And I knew
6 Because my question was, well, why did this guy
7 move out the cell? That's when I heard it
8 through staff. Oh, yeah. He moved out the
9 cell because they were saying Tartaglione
10 assaulted him. And then, I knew because they
11 had FBI agents called in, and interviewed
12 Tartaglione. So, I knew that.
13 : Okay.
14 : Like, that he was
15 interviewed.
16 : Right. And did you know,
17 though --
18 : That he tried to --
19 : -- that Epstein was
20 commit suicide?
21 : -- placed on suicide
22 watch?
23 : Yes.
24 : So, was it your
25 understanding that he attempted to commit
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1 suicide, or that his cellmate tried to harm
2 him?
3 : The only thing I know is
4 that he was placed on suicide watch. Remember,
5 he wasn't my inmate. So, that's the only thing
6 I remember about that incident.
7 : And whose inmate was he?
8
9 : So, that was also a
10 inmate.
11 : Who you talking about?
12 : Tartaglione.
13 : Tartaglione. Yeah. At that
14 time, he was inmate. And then, he
15 became my inmate.
16 : Okay. So --
17 : Yeah.
18 at the time, though --
19 -: and
20 Epstein, Reyes, and
21 Tartaglione were all inmates?
22 : That is correct.
23 : Okay. I got nothing
24 else.
25 : I just wanted to clarify.
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1 : Yeah.
2 : You mentioned that - going
3 back to this phone call - you mentioned the
4 captain said to monitor and log the calls. But
5 there was no books.
6 : Mm-hmm.
7 : There was no book to keep the
8 log.
9 : Mm-hmm.
10 : What exactly did the captain
11 mean when he said monitor and log, when there
12 was no book to write the log in? What do you
13 think he meant by that?
14 : Log it in the book, that
15 when there is no book.
16 : So, was there supposed to
17 be a book?
18 : Yes.
19 : Okay. So, he --
20 : And once again, I made that
21 book. I'm the one There wasn't no books.
22 I made all those books that's there today. I
23 made those books.
24 : After the Epstein incident?
25 : Yes.
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1 : And at that point, did the
2 captain know that there was no books?
3 : He's the captain. So, I'm
4 going to say yes.
5 : Okay.
6 : But do you remember him
7 saying monitor and log it?
8 : I kind of remember it.
9 Like, as you guys saying it - remember, it
10 happened so long - but yes, what I know was,
11 mean, I didn't know there was no book at the
12 time until I went up to SHU and didn't see no
13 book. Because it would have been logged.
14 : And you had to practice that,
15 if you gave a legal call, you would actually
16 log it on?
17 : And that's the reason why I
18 actually made the -. I actually made the book
19 up. And then, today, there is a book in there
20 for legal calls and social calls. Today.
21 : Mm-hmm.
22 : If you go up there now.
23 : That's not shutting off.
24 Sorry about that.
25 : Yeah.
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1 : Okay.
2 I was going to move on.
3 There was another --
4 : Oh, please.
5 : -- so, then, I'm going to -
6 well passed it, too, a portion.
7 : Mm-hmm.
8 : "After OCME (Phonetic Sp.
9 *01:14:44)," and I think that stands for the
10 Office of Chief Medical Examiner, "Departed
11 with Epstein's body, returned to MCC,
12 and wrote a memo containing a timeline of
13 events, and a recap of the previous nights'
14 phone call." Now, I have a copy of the memo
15 here.
16 : Mm-hmm.
17 : At least, this is the copy
18 had.
19 : Mm-hmm.
20 : I'm going to read this. The
21 memorandum for file, Metropolitan Correctional
22 Center, August 10th, 2019. From
23 That's you?
24 : Mm-hmm.
25 : Unit manager. Subject:
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1 Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054.
2 "This memorandum is in regards of inmate
3 Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On
4 August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein,
5 concerning him making a call to his family.
6 told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility
7 around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to
8 shorten his attorney visitation to make his
9 social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to
10 Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed
11 inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and
12 escorted the phone for him to make the social
13 call.
14 I placed the phone in the first jack on
15 the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained
16 to me that he didn't have his phone set up to
17 use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate
18 Epstein who he was calling. He stated his
19 mother. I remember dialing the number starting
20 with (347), but the number was not notated."
21 It says "notated." I'm guessing it says not.
22 You meant not notated?
23 : And it actually was, but
24 when I wrote the number down, you know how you
25 write it down on a piece of paper and put it in
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1 your pocket, well, I couldn't find it. So,
2 there was no number. But I remember, vaguely,
3 what the number started with, because I
4 actually wrote it down, and I was going to -
5 that next day - ask the captain why we don't
6 have a logbook, and here's the numbers that he
7 actually called her. So.
8 : "Inmate Epstein began talking
9 on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate
10 Epstein's call after 15 minutes. They
11 complied." Is that the memo you wrote?
12 : That is the memo I wrote.
13 : Okay. Just, anything we show
14 you, which would be, in this case, the memo,
15 just initial it, and put today's date on it.
16 Today is September 21st. Here's a pen.
17 : Mm-hmm. The time?
18 : You don't need the time.
19 Just the date and the initial. That's fine.
20 Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So
21 bear with me. " provided this to AW
22 , who is also new to the MCC. Captain"...
23 (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed
24 , but responded that he couldn't
25 talk about the situation. The only colleague
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1 whose phone number has is AW
2 because he had to use his personal phone to
3 email her his timeline of events, and pictures
4 of Epstein's body, prior to its transport by
5 OCME." Now, you said you - this states that
6 you used your personal phone to email pictures
7 of Epstein's body. Why did you use your
8 personal phone to take Epstein's -?
9 : For one, R&D is supposed to
10 come out there. R&D is supposed to come out
11 there and fingerprint them. They came out
12 there. They fingerprinted and that was it.
13 Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they
14 want to know when we're leaving, because
15 sent me out there. So, I had to
16 stay with the body until the actual coroner
17 came. The coroner came. So, what I did was,
18 yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes,
19 I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving.
20 This is his body.
21 Where I had proof that the inmate was
22 deceased, and he wasn't walking off somewhere
23 else. Because all the speculation now and in
24 the news that he's not dead. So, I did that.
25 Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to
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1 from my phone. This is, boom, boom,
2 boom. I left the hospital at this time,
3 arrived back at the institution at this time.
4 This is when they took his body and placed it
5 in here. This is a lot. This is where they
6 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to
7 leave.
8 : Were you instructed by
9 o take pictures?
10 : I'm trying to think. It's
11 been so long. I could have. But I know I had
12 a reason why I took them.
13 : And it was practice for
14 somebody to take pictures like that?
15 : I would have did it for
16 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is
17 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the
18 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we
19 have a camera from the institution.
20 : Was there a --
21 : You see what I'm saying?
22 : -- was there a camera this
23 time? Was there a camera this time?
24 : No.
25 : Okay.
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1 : But it - once again - they
2 brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a
3 camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave
4 it with us. I was coming back to the
5 institution. Because they have a - each R&D
6 has a briefcase, and in that brief case is a
7 camera, everything that you're supposed to
8 fingerprint an inmate on, and all that stuff.
9 And they have it for a reason, for inmates that
10 die. So, they could have left that and said,
11 hey, , when you guys leave, you got to
12 bring it back anyway, I'm coming back to the
13 institution. I'm going to leave this briefcase
14 with you. I would have, then, took the
15 pictures on that. But they didn't.
16 : So, they left with the
17 camera?
18 : They left with everything.
19 : And the phone number that you
20 texted to A , was that her
21 personal or -?
22 : That (804), if I'm correct,
23 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP
24 cell number. I don't know if it was (804).
25 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was
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1 two numbers. But I knew I only had
2 one number, and I think, if it was (804),
3 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone.
4 : Okay. And I'm going to keep
5 reading.
6 : So, you texted her, not
7 emailed her. Correct?
8 : No. But I did text her.
9 But the pictures went to her phone.
10 : Her phone. So, texted
11 her --
12 : Yeah.
13 : -- not email, because
14 doesn't it say email in there?
15 : He said he emailed her his
16 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein's
17 body, prior to its transport by OCME.
18 : Right.
19 : So, did you email it to her,
20 or -?
21 : It was email. Yeah. It was
22 text.
23 : So, you texted the pictures,
24 and emailed her --
25 : That is correct.
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1 : -- the timeline of events?
2 "After sending these
3 pictures, deleted them from his phone.
4 didn't speak, text, or email with
5 anyone else except his wife, who also works at
6 the MCC, in the food services section." Did
7 you forward those pictures to anybody else?
8 : No.
9 : Did you tell anyone that you
10 had those pictures?
11 : No.
12 : Or share them anywhere?
13 : No.
14 : Okay.
15 : And you don't have them?
16 And you deleted them --
17 : No.
18 : -- those photos.
19 : You're free to look.
20 : No, no, no. No. That's
21 fine.
22 : No, I'm just saying.
23 : Yeah.
24 : I mean, I'm not -. Listen.
25 Trust me.
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1 : No, no. We're just going
2 to say --
3 : I want to get them --
4 : -- if you have them, can
5 you send them to us?
6 : -- no. No. I am not -.
7 Listen. No. I deleted them that day.
8 : That's all I had in terms of
9 questions. Do you have anything?
10 : Yeah. So, speaking of,
11 like, pictures of the That was the
12 hospital. Correct?
13 : Mm-hmm.
14 : Do you know if anyone was
15 there filming at the hospital?
16 : Remember, there were so many
17 people. I can't recall because my biggest
18 thing was - with those officers - was to guard
19 that body. Now, do I believe that people was
20 there? There was people there.
21 : No, I mean, like, was
22 that, like, you know how, like, if there is a,
23 you know, some kind of a use of force that
24 you've got to use against your institution
25 film, was someone --
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1 : No, no, no.
2 : -- (Indiscernible
3 *01:21:54).
4 : From us?
5 : Yeah, yeah.
6 : No.
7 : So, no one was
8 : No.
9 : -- filming from the BOP?
10 : No.
11 : Okay.
12 : There was people from the
13 outside, though. I know that for a fact.
14 : From where?
15 : From the outside.
16 : Outside. Okay.
17 : Yeah.
18 : Do you know if Epstein
19 was deceased prior to leaving the MCC?
20 : I wasn't there. I was the
21 duty officer. I was called by
22 And the only thing told me was,
23 hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She
24 said Epstein attempted to commit suicide.
25 was, like, okay. When I got there, he was
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1 already at the hospital. He was deceased then.
2 So, she told me to report to the hospital, and
3 that's when I reported, and I noticed his
4 deceased body.
5 : Do you know if, is there
6 any, like, rule, or unofficial or official,
7 that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the
8 MCC, or at the BOP facility?
9 : That. There's not a policy.
10 They technically says it, but this, this rule
11 was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule.
12 When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at
13 Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there.
14 The policy states it's not us. Our medical
15 people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So,
16 let's say if an inmate, (Indiscernible
17 *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a
18 licensed, practiced. They can announce that
19 person dead - and I've seen it all the time -
20 at the jail. It's just common for them to say,
21 oh, he didn't die here. They always say that.
22 : Do you --
23 : But -.
24 : -- do you believe, from
25 what you know now, two years later, that he was
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1 deceased while he was here, at the MCC?
2 : I believe it.
3 : Okay.
4 : I definitely believe it.
5 : So, he wasn't still alive
6 when he left?
7 : No.
8 : Okay.
9 : And that's just, when I got
10 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no
11 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my
12 27 years, this is not my first time around a
13 dead inmate. So, I've seen inmates fall out,
14 and die. So, there's no way. And when I got
15 to the hospital, because they was transporting
16 him, I met them at the hospital. So -.
17 : So, did you see them take
18 him out of the ambulance?
19 : When I met them at the
20 hospital, he was -. When I got to the
21 hospital, you know how you - he was already out
22 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe,
23 secured area in the hospital room. But he was
24 already deceased.
25 : Do you know if, at that
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1 time, what he was wearing?
2 : I can't recall. I can just
3 -. Whatever was on the video over the news,
4 that's what he was wearing. Because I mean,
5 that is on that there, with the thing in his
6 mouth. That's what he was wearing.
7 : Okay. And then, as far
8 as, like, you know, all of the speculation
9 that's out there, do you have any information
10 that would suggest that Epstein did not take
11 his own life?
12 : I don't because I wasn't
13 there. You know, and, you know, what I
14 speculate is totally different. I mean, it is
15 what it is.
16 : Well, what is your
17 speculation?
18 : I just believe that -.
19 don't know how they went in the room. So, I
20 wasn't there, of how they went in the room.
21 You know, because, you know, when the doctor
22 say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took
23 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and
24 the only way you can get -. I don't care if
25 that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not
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1 doing it by yourself.
2 So, I don't know how they entered the
3 room. But policy states, when you go in the
4 room, you need to wait for a lieutenant.
5 Period. And you can't just pop that door.
6 Because how do you know that inmate is not
7 still living where he is trying to kill you,
8 and then escape? Or you definitely need help.
9 That's why you have to wait for a lieutenant,
10 because that lieutenant has to give you
11 instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift
12 that person, where if you go - to me - there is
13 no way, if it was two or three people, and we
14 picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the
15 news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22).
16 I just think, me personally, and hadn't
17 heard anything, but I just think one person was
18 trying to do it by itself, and this, that's no
19 the proper way. And that's just my opinion.
20 : Right.
21 : Because in all the suicides,
22 and I've seen - I was at, remember, I was at
23 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I've seen numerous, and
24 I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at
25 least three or four people. Midnight, I
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1 understand, at night, you only have, but it
2 don't matter. These inmates are locked down.
3 So, they can -. You can -. If I have a
4 hanging, they're already told. I'm already
5 telling people, you know to vacate that post.
6 Yes.
7 Anything can happen up there, but I would
8 rather have three or four people with me, in
9 the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because
10 don't know what's going on. You know, we heard
11 all the stuff that went on with peppy, so
12 definitely, I don't want something happening at
13 midnight, when you could just vacate your post,
14 come up there, and respond.
15 : So, is kind of what
16 you're saying, that, like, by having one
17 officer enter the cell, to respond --
18 : Should have never happened.
19 : -- to Epstein, that could
20 actually cause more harm --
21 : Of course.
22 are you talking about
23 physically, though, too, not only the ruse of,
24 you know, this person could overpower you, and
25 now have you as a hostage, but you could become
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1 - that person who was attempting to hang
2 themself, or hanging themself --
3 : Would it --- --
4 : -- could it become more
5 physical --
6 : That is correct.
7 : -- during the attempt.
8 : Because what if - my thing
9 is this - what if he was almost there, wasn't
10 deceased, and what if you're trying to lift
11 him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and
12 you -. Because if, you know, remember, when
13 they did the autopsy, then I would say, there's
14 no way he's going to break that where, unless,
15 you know, they was trying to say, you know, we
16 killed them, unless one person is trying to do
17 it. Epstein wasn't 140 pounds. He was 200
18 something. So, there is no way I could lift
19 that dude. There's no way. So, I would never
20 go in by myself. So, that's my speculation,
21 where somebody tried to do it by themselves,
22 cover it up, and that's what I see. Maybe I'm
23 wrong. But that's my speculation. That's
24 always going to be my speculation. Because
25 : So --
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1 : -- I've been doing this for
2 too long.
3 : -- so, you're speculating
4 that the individual who went in could have
5 harmed him more than helped him, but do you
6 have any reason to believe that anyone,
7 including that staff member, are actually the
8 one that harmed him in the first place? Like,
9 do you know what I'm saying?
10 : Honestly, with them two, it
11 could have been anything. And that's just me.
12 It could have been. It could have been any.
13 Listen. I've seen a lot in the BOP. It could
14 have been anything. I don't know.
15 : Okay.
16 : It could have been anything.
17 : Did you ever hear
18 anything about, like, letting one inmate's cell
19 door open, while also letting Epstein's cell
20 open --
21 : No.
22 : -- so that --
23 : No.
24 : -- anything like that -?
25 : No.
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1 : Okay.
2 : Have I heard it in the BOP?
3 Yes. In my 27 years. But in Epstein's case,
4 no.
5 : Okay. So, that's never
6 been a rumor that you've heard, that another
7 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein?
8 : I mean, you hear it, not in
9 the BOP, you hear it on the outside. I never
10 heard it on the BOP. Never heard staff, you
11 know, speculating that. Never.
12 : Okay.
13 : Because if I would have, I
14 probably would have wrote a memo about it.
15 : All right.
16 : Can I ask a question on that?
17 : Mm-hmm.
18 : You said you've seen inmates
19 hanging themselves before. Right? You've
20 seen, you've been in that situation before.
21 : Many times.
22 : How -? Is it possible for,
23 if you're responding, you go in with a couple
24 of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord
25 off -?
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1 : No. We don't do that. In
2 all my lieutenants' life, and I was a
3 lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the
4 fact, but mine, we're taught this. There's no
5 ifs, ands, or buts. You're taught to go in
6 with enough people. One person, if it's two
7 inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if
8 it's day watch, and you should have at least
9 ten people. That's just like if you're having
10 a use of force. If there is one person, close
11 to five.
12 If you can't get five, you at least want
13 to have four. I'm not going to have three
14 people. I'm going to wait until they get
15 there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to
16 save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still,
17 you've got to look at your safety, and it's
18 really - when you're going to use of force,
19 it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to
20 one. So, you always kind of use that concept.
21 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our
22 job is one person lift the body, you have a cut
23 down tool, which is here. I have one. And you
24 cut the inmate down. That's a cut down tool.
25 : That's what they refer to as
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1 a cutter?
2 : That's considered a cut down
3 tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down
4 tool. You get them from Galls.
5 : But if they say, oh, he
6 used a cutter to cut him down, that's what
7 they're talking about. Correct?
8 : They had -. They didn't
9 have something like this. I guess the new
10 warden wanted to order some. They cut down
11 tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a
12 small little cut down tool where, let's say
13 you're cutting down something, to me, if
14 yodon't hold that inmate upright, you're doing
15 more damage, because you're trying to cut it
16 down.
17 : Okay.
18 : So, you're doing like this,
19 and what are you doing? You're shaking
20 whatever is on his neck, if it's tight, you're
21 shaking it down. These right here are actual
22 cut down tools, where you're going to go like
23 this one time, and it's just going to cut it.
24 So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he
25 is. Let's say you do have -. Every SHU has
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1 cut down tools. Because they do.
2 But once again, who is responsible?
3 That's the captain. Checking equipment.
4 Making sure your equipment is not dull. After
5 two or three years, if you're not using
6 something, you're always supposed to check that
7 equipment. It's normal. And then, psychology,
8 they always do their mock drills. They do
9 their moc drills, I think, quarterly. You
10 know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that
11 time, I would check myself, but I don't - me
12 personally - I would check myself. You just -.
13 You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a
14 hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this,
15 because once again, how does that look to me?
16 How does that look? Like, if they did have a
17 camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right.
18 : Speaking of cameras, do
19 you have any information, or reason to believe,
20 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in
21 the SHU?
22 : Hmm. Actually, when I was
23 at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera
24 was working. And that's just me -. My -.
25 Because they even had cameras in the cell.
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1 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras
2 in the cell.
3 : G-tier, and 10 South.
4 : 10 South.
5 : Right?
6 : Hmm. I don't know if it was
7 just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier.
8 They had -. No. I don't want to say that.
9 They had -. Because when we went in some cells
10
11 : Okay, that was the end of
12 the range, or each end of each range has a
13 camera.
14 : No. I'm not talking about
15 that. You have -. No. I - listen - I've been
16 in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all
17 that. But they had some cameras in some cells,
18 and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand?
19 No. But they had those. I'm telling you they
20 had them. Because I remember going in the
21 cell, taking the inmate out. On what's that?
22 You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the
23 bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and
24 show the camera. Because the inmate had, the
25 inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was,
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1 like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm
2 telling you. This is, like, no more than,
3 like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue
4 off the -. So, and that was an old camera.
5 So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells.
6 : So, you said six months ago,
7 from today or six months from the Epstein
8 incident?
9 : No. From today, but those
10 cameras been -. Those are old cameras.
11 They're not, like -. I can tell the new
12 cameras are new cameras, I know how they look.
13 All the new cameras they just put in, that's an
14 old camera.
15 : Was it --
16 : And I -.
17 in dry cell?
18 : That was not in dry cell.
19 I'm telling you. It's probably there still
20 now. It's - I'm telling you - it's an old
21 camera.
22 : So, but do you have any
23 information that someone intentionally knocked
24 the cameras offline?
25 : Hmm.
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1 : Or just your speculation?
2 : My thing is, I can tell you
3 this, I knew when the cameras was working, no,
4 it wasn't the captain. But any time a camera
5 was down, like, there would be - how you say
6 it? - it will be -. It was almost, like,
7 nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So,
8 we would know. And then, it would be forced to
9 make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP.
10 So, if the cameras was down, especially
11 certain cameras, they wouldn't even let inmates
12 out. They won't let them out. Because we
13 can't see certain things. So, I don't
14 was shocked to see that cameras wasn't
15 was very shocked. Very. Because with those
16 cameras, I think you could have saw more, and
17 it could have either helped or hindered people.
18 It didn't matter. I would rather for the
19 cameras to work. I don't care whether it's
20 there to get me or not. If the cameras was
21 working, I think the investigation would have
22 completed probably a long time ago.
23 : Yeah. Do you know who
24 was in charge of the cameras?
25 : The captain. Because it
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1 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com
2 tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech.
3 Communication.
4 : Facilities manager, but -
5
6 : No. But it's still going to
7 be the captain because it's both of them
8 together, facilities manager and the captain,
9 because if something is not working, the
10 captain should know first.
11 : But how would have the
12 captain, or the facilities manager, have found
13 out? Who would have told them?
14 : Communications. They
15 should. Listen, if a camera is not working in
16 there, communications. That is - at that time,
17 it was . So, job is to report
18 that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number
19 seven, number eight in SHU was not working.
20 Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But
21 that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's
22 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the
23 captain, then, could make that decision of what
24 they want to do. Of how they want to go about
25 things. That's his job. That's
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1 communications.
2 : Remember those initials
3 that we read earlier today? They're not
4 but whomever else would have been
5 checking --
6 : I'm trying to think who --
7 : -- out those, I think it
8 was the CMS or something like that.
9 : The only person who was in
10 there then was That I'm aware of.
11 : No, that's who he would have
12 contacted as --
13 : Yeah.
14 : -- as (Indiscernible
15 *01:36:45).
16 : But that was a BOP
17 person.
18 : No. It's an office, I think.
19 : Yeah.
20 : Oh.
21 -: was the only
22 contractor, I mean, com, because they just
23 hired another person.
24 : Okay.
25 : And he wasn't -. Yeah.
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1 : So --
2 : It was just
3 would have been
4 the only person.
5 : Yeah. It was just
6 : Is there an office inside the
7 BOP called the CMS?
8 : That's right by the -.
9 Where all the stuff is at? For the cameras and
10 all that. Where they -?
11 : Was it called? The CMS.
12 We're just trying to figure out what that is.
13 : Yeah. That's Camera
14 Maintenance -. Camera Maintenance System. So
15
16 : So, it's a thing. Not a
17 person.
18 : -- yeah, it's a thing. You
19 go --
20 : Okay.
21 : -- you go right by the
22 lieutenant's office, and it's right in the back
23 of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) --
24 : So, he probably --
25 you open that door
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1 : -- checked in the CMS,
2 not checking with the, like --
3 : Okay.
4 : -- another person.
5 : Well, he said he checked
6 with the team. Well, that's -. It could be
7 If he checked with the CMS, well, I only
8 remember system, but that would be somebody in
9 the region. But his office is there. Like, he
10 could open that office, if something is down,
11 he know why it's down. Then he would report
12 that to either somebody higher. Either
13 regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what's
14 going on? Like, central office, or somebody.
15 Just like the phones. If the phones are down,
16 it's the central office guy that usually fix
17 the phone. So, it could have been the central
18 office, or the regional office. So, that could
19 have been the CMS he was talking about.
20 : Go ahead. Sorry.
21 : Just last clarifying. Just,
22 I know I asked you the question. Was it, do
23 you think it would have been possible if Thomas
24 walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there,
25 hanging? As one person, do you think he could
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1 have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off
2 himself?
3 : Ripped it.
4 : Ripped it off.
5 : Everybody was nervous at the
6 time. If I know for a fact I screwed up,
7 what's the first -? What's the first thing a
8 kid do? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm
9 trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this
10 dude because, I already know I messed up. I
11 was either sleeping or doing whatever I was
12 doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right
13 there. Well, I could see all the activity that
14 this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a
15 round. That's it. So, if I'm not doing
16 something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to
17 try to fix it.
18 : Was it possible for him to
19 pull it off without a cutter?
20 : If the cutter wasn't
21 working. That sheet? No. It's hard as -.
22 Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know,
23 inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to.
24 So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole
25 hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to
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1 take a sheet, and pull it, and you're going to
2 burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for
3 about a month. So, it's hard. Because my
4 understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it's
5 a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if
6 he had it knotted right, there's no way you
7 could take it down by your hand.
8 : And if a cutter was not used,
9 if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it
10 off, you think that's not possible? You're
11 saying that's not possible?
12 : Hmm. I saw what the media,
13 how his room was set up. Actually, I've been
14 up there. I saw it because they had the room
15 carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so
16 heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and
17 then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot
18 was still there, and you cut it, like this,
19 there's no way. There -. I don't -. Listen,
20 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible
21 *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm
22 going to just pull a sheet, and just come in.
23 There's no way. There's no way.
24 : Be similar to, like,
25 saying that he ripped a rope in half
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1 : Yeah.
2 : -- right?
3 : Once again, these are little
4 ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed.
5 They had it tied tight enough to where I
6 couldn't do it in the knot (Indiscernible
7 *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole
8 hand. So, I had to -. That's why I wind up
9 getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had
10 burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep
11 scar. There is no way. There is And that,
12 I saw the spread. There is no way you're going
13 yank a spread off -. Unless it's coming,
14 unraveling from the actual knot. You know how
15 you do your shoelace?
16 : Yeah.
17 : Yeah.
18 : That's it. There's no way
19 you're going to do it. There's no Not even
20 - the biggest person in there was - not
21 even he could probably do it.
22 meaning --
23
24
25
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1 : Okay.
2 : He can't even do it. Arai
3 he's a big dude. There's no way.
4 : Anything else?
5 : Anything that we're
6 missing, that we should know about?
7 (Indiscernible *01:41:14).
8 : You guys are right on point.
9 : Well, you've been very
10 helpful. Thank you.
11 : Thank you for taking the time
12 to talk to us today.
13 : You're welcome.
14 : If there is anything you can
15 think about in the future, if you think there's
16 any information that might help us in the
17 investigation, please feel free to reach out
18 : No problem.
19 : -- and share that
20 information.
21 : But you sent it - let me
22 clarify, though, with the AW,
23 - you sent it to her, you sent those
24 pictures to her government phone. Correct?
25 : That is correct.
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1 : Okay.
2 : And her - and like I said --
3 : (Indiscernible *01:41:38).
4 : -- if it was (840), I think
5 it was a I don't -. I didn't --
6 -- (804) or (840)?
7 : (840).
8 : (840).
9 : I think that's her.
10 Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come
11 from one institution to another, they can
12 actually keep their government phone.
13 : Okay.
14 : They just register it with
15 the agency here.
16 : Okay. Perfect. All right.
17 Well, thank you very much.
18 : Yes. This is Special Agent
19 . The time is 2:32 p.m. on
20 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the
21 interview.
22
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1 CERTIFICATE
2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages
3 represent an accurate transcript of the
4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings
5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the
6 Inspector General in the matter of:
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12 Transcriber
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