EFTA00111908

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 27, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00111908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00111909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : My name is 2 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 3 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 York Field Office, and these are my 5 credentials. 6 MS. : Okay. 7 MR. : This interview with the 8 Federal Bureau of Prisons psychologist, Dr. 9 Did I get that right? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 12 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 13 of the Inspector General investigation. 14 Today's date is October 27, 2021. And the time 15 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conducted 16 at the OIGr New York Field Officer located or. 17 the 29th floor of One Battery Park Plaza, New 18 York, New York. Also present is: 19 MR. : DOJ/OIG Senior Special 20 Agent . And these are my 21 credentials. Oops. Here you go. 22 MR. : This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Special Agent 24 Could everyone please identify themselves for 25 the record, and spell your last name? To EFTA00111910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent 2 3 MR. : My name is DOJ/OIG Senior 4 Special Agent 6 MR. : Dr. please introduce 7 yourself. 8 MS. : Yeah. So, my name is Dr. 9 . I am the chief psychologist at 10 MCC New York. 11 MR. : Thank you. 12 MR. : And your last name. Can 13 you just spell that -- 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : -- for the record? 16 MS. : I'm sorry about that. 17 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : This is an official DOJ/OIG 20 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey 21 Epstein. And you are being asked to 22 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 23 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 24 the DOJ/OIG? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00111911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Thank you. I'm going to 2 provide you with the OIG form 11I-226/2. It 3 states the following, "United States Department 4 of Justice, Office of the Inspector General. 5 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 6 to Provided Information on a Voluntary Basis. 7 You are being asked to provide information as 8 part of an investigation being conducted by the 9 Office of the Inspector General. This 10 investigation is being conducted pursuant to 11 the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. 12 This investigation pertains to job 13 performance failure, and security failure. 14 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 15 you do not have to answer any questions. No 16 disciplinary action will be taken against you 17 if you choose not to answer any questions. Any 18 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 19 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 20 disciplinary proceeding, or both." The waiver 21 states, "I understand the warnings and 22 assurance stated above, and I am willing to 23 make a statement and answer questions. 24 No promises or threats have been made to 25 me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has EFTA00111912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 been used against me." Please review it. And 2 if you agree, can you please sign where it 3 says, "Employee Signature"? Also, print your 4 name right below that. 5 MR. : Please. 6 MS. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Thank you. Thank you. I am 8 signing on the signature of the Office of 9 Inspector General, Special Agent. 10 MR. : Okay. And I will -- 11 MR. : Agent -. 12 MR. : -- sign as the witness, 13 and place the date, and time, and place on 14 there. On the form. 15 MR. : Thank you. Before starting 16 the interview, I would like to place you under 17 oath. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Dr. can you please 20 raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell 21 the truth and nothing but the truth during this 22 interview? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Thank you. Please let me 25 know if you did not understand any questions, EFTA00111913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 and I will try to repeat it, or try to rephrase 2 it for you. What is your current home address? 3 MS. _: 4 5 MR. : Okay. And what is your date 6 of birth? 7 MS. -: 8 MR. : Actually, you showed us your 9 ID. Can you show that one more time? I just 10 want to -- 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : -- Dr. has provided me 13 with the U.S. Department of Justice law 14 enforcement officer ID, and it has her picture 15 on it, and her signature. Thank you. What is 16 your current cell phone number? 17 MS. -: 18 MR. : Thank you. Do you recall 19 being interviewed by the FBI and the DIG in 20 August 2019, regarding inmate Jeffrey Epstein? 21 MS. : Yes, I do. 22 MR. : What I have here is called 23 the FBI 302. It's their report of the 24 investigation. It's a summary of your 25 statements that you made in the interview with EFTA00111914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 them. I'm going to go -. I'm going to read it 2 out to you. Please let me know if there is any 3 discrepancies, or you feel that anything is 4 inaccurate, and we will correct it. 5 MS. : Okay. 6 MR. : On the record. Anything else 7 before we start? 8 MR. : Nope. 9 MR. : Okay. "Dr. 10 date of birth:-, was interviewed at 1 11 Saint Andrews Plaza, New York, New York, 10007. 12 U.S. Attorney's Office. Southern District of 13 New York. Present at the interview was the 14 Office of Inspector General,- Special Agent 15 ; Assistant U.S. Attorney 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:54), 17 and FBI Special Agent 18 After being advised of the identity of the 19 interviewing agents, and the nature of the 20 interview, Dr. provided the following 21 statement. Dr. is the chief 22 psychologist at the Metropolitan Correctional 23 Center (MCC). Her background includes a 24 bachelor's degree in criminology, a master's in 25 mental health counseling, a master's in EFTA00111915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 clinical counseling, and a doctorate." What is 2 the doctorate in? 3 MS. : Oh. The second master's is 4 in clinical psychology, not counseling 5 psychology. And the doctorate is in clinical 6 psychology. 7 MR. : Okay. Thank you for 8 clarifying that. "Dr. was the staff 9 psychologist at East Jersey State Prison for 10 two years. *00:05:33) And she completed a one- 11 year post-doctoral fellowship and internship 12 working at an in and out - in/outpatient mental 13 health treatment center. And she did that 14 externship at Federal Detention Center in 15 Miami, working with the battered woman's 16 program." Is that accurate? Go ahead. 17 MS. : Okay. My post-doc was at a 18 private forensic practice, forensic psychology 19 practice. The Institution for Behavioral 20 Sciences in the Law. That was my post-doctoral 21 internship. My internship was at the 22 University of Miami. Jackson Memorial Medical 23 Center. That's where I did inpatient and 24 outpatient rotations, with a minor in 25 forensics. And my externship, when I was in EFTA00111916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 doctoral program, was at the Federal Detention 2 Center in Miami. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Okay. 5 MR. : Thank you. 6 MS. : Sure. 7 MR. "Dr. worked as a staff 8 psychologist at the Metropolitan Detention 9 Center, MDC Brooklyn, from 2003 to 2006." 10 MS. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. "And as a forensic 12 psychologist from 2006 to 2008." 13 MS. : Correct. 14 MR. "Dr. has been the 15 chief psychologist at MCC for the last 11 16 years." 17 MS. : Well, now, more. Probably 18 close to 13. 19 MR. : 13. 20 MS. : More than 13, probably. 21 MR. : So, that is still your role 22 at the MCC? 23 MS. Uh-huh. Yes. And now that 24 it's closed. You know -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MS. -- I'm no longer the chief 2 psychologist there. But up until a day ago, 3 yes. 4 MR. : Okay. And so, what is the 5 new role with the -? 6 MS. : Well, I am awaiting a 7 position, likely in central office. 8 MR. : Okay. And what, do you know 9 what your role would be? What your title would 10 be? 11 MS. : A mental health treatment 12 coordinator. But it's going through the 13 paperwork right now. So, it hasn't, you know, 14 I haven't received official notification 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : -- as of yet. 17 MR. : Then -. 18 MR. : Will you be able to stay 19 in New York? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. Great. 22 MS. : But I am doing my TDY work 23 right now, at Fort Dix. In New Jersey. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : So, I am just seeing a lot of EFTA00111918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 patients over there now. 2 MR. : Anything else on that? 3 MR. : Hmm-mm. 4 MR. : "Dr. oversees three 5 forensic psychologists." This is talking about 6 the time period when you were interviewed. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : I guess, before we do, I 9 don't think it said. When did you first start 10 working with the BOP? When was your enter on 11 duty? 12 MS. : In 2003. 13 MR. : Okay. Great. Thank you. 14 MR. : "Dr. oversees three 15 forensic psychologists, one staff psychologist, 16 a drug abuse coordinator, and a drug treatment 17 specialist. Her duties include ensuring all 18 patients are seen, and the appropriate 19 documentation is completed. She consults on 20 individual cases, as needed. She ensures the 21 forensic reports are out on time. She reviews 22 all the reports she signs off on. At this 23 time, Dr. is seeing patients, is seeing 24 more patients than she normally does, due to 25 staffing. Her typical hours are 7:00 a.m. to EFTA00111919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 3:30 p.m. Monday to Friday." 2 MS. : Okay. 3 MR. "Dr. provided 4 information on the intake process as it relates 5 to psychological services at MCC. All inmates 6 complete the psychological services intake 7 questionnaire" - that's PSIQ - "themselves. It 8 asks for the inmates mental health history, as 9 well as any symptoms they are feeling at the 10 time. Based off the PSIQ, inmates are rated a 11 care code reading." 12 MS. : Okay. First, we interview 13 them. What we do is, we review the PSIQs once 14 they are filled out. If significant items are 15 marked, we will interview the inmate. After we 16 complete the intake screening, we will classify 17 them with a care code. And that will determine 18 how frequently the inmate will be seen. 19 MR. : Okay. I think it goes into 20 the codes itself. 21 MS. : Oh, okay. All right. 22 MR. : "Code one means there are no 23 concerns about the inmate's mental health 24 status. They have no needs and will not be 25 followed up with, unless requested to, by EFTA00111920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 either the inmate themselves, or staff." 2 MS. : Okay. 3 MR. "Code two means there is some 4 history of mental health issues, but the inmate 5 has them under control. Psychological services 6 will follow up with these individuals monthly." 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. "Code three are more severe 9 cases, and they are seen every week by 10 psychological services, to ensure the inmate is 11 stable. If the inmate isn't stable in general 12 population, they will be moved to observation. 13 If they continue to deteriorate, they will go 14 to the hospital." 15 MS. : We will try to send them to a 16 BOP medical center. Or we will try to 17 stabilize them in the facility. We have a 18 psychiatrist who is actually, he is a central 19 office psychiatrist, but he was actually 20 located at MCC New York. So, if they started 21 to decompensate the interview, and they were 22 that acute, we would have the psychiatrist see 23 them, and potentially medicate them, and try to 24 stabilize them at our facility. If we cannot 25 do so, then we will try to do an emergency, EFTA00111921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 what is called a 770, and have them designated 2 to one of our medical centers for 3 stabilization. We don't have a contract with 4 the hospital here in New York. 5 MR. : I don't know if you - what's 6 - what decompensating means? 7 MS. : Oh, that means that their 8 symptoms become more acute, their mental health 9 functioning is deteriorating to the point where 10 they display evidence of either severe mood 11 symptoms, like acute mania, or psychosis, where 12 they are actively hallucinating, or have 13 delusions. Or maybe they just stopped taking 14 care of ADLs, as well. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : And that would cause harm to 17 them. Because of their illness. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : Do you have any questions on 21 that? Okay. "Code four inmates are seen every 22 day by psychological services, and are under 23 constant psychological observation." 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. "Dr. pointed out that EFTA00111922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 a code one can be on suicide watch. Often 2 times, those cases involve manipulation 3 techniques used by inmates to get what they 4 want from staff. For example, if an inmate is 5 not getting along with the guard, or they want 6 a new cellmate, they will claim to be suicidal 7 to get out of their housing area. If an inmate 8 does this two or three times, they will be 9 bumped to a code two, so that a psychologist 10 will meet with them monthly. Suicide watch 11 means an inmate is eminently suicidal. If an 12 inmate is placed on suicide watch, they are 13 under constant watch by staff. They have a 14 special mattress, blanket, and smock to wear. 15 And their cell lights are on 24/7." 16 MS. : Correct. 17 MR. "Suicide observation is 18 lower classification." 19 MS. : Psychological observation. 20 MR. : Correction. "Psychological 21 observation is a lower classification. It is 22 not at all Bureau of Prisons facilities. 23 Everything is the same with suicide observation 24 inmates - psychological observation inmates, 25 except that they are allowed to have their EFTA00111923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 clothing, and some materials, such as books. 2 Suicide watch can be detrimental if a person is 3 left on it for too long. So, observation is 4 used to see how an inmate is doing before 5 releasing them back to general population." 6 MS. : Correct. So, psychological 7 observation, they are observed constantly, with 8 regard to what they have, they can obtain. 9 They can have those things that you listed. 10 But we have to determine, and sometimes it 11 might be one thing at a time. Like, we might 12 give them their underwear, and see how they do 13 with that. And then, we will, you know, give 14 them a book. But it's not like once you get 15 stopped down, you get all of those items. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Okay. It's determined by a 18 psychologist, and it is notated on their 19 logbook, what they can and cannot have. 20 MR. : Okay. "Any psychologist a: 21 jail can take an inmate off suicide watch, but 22 they do consult with Dr. on occasion. 23 Many times, the executive staff at the jail 24 meet, and inmate psychological status and 25 services are discussed." EFTA00111924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Can you explain to us a 3 little bit more about the meeting? What 4 exactly is discussed? 5 MS. : Yes. So, we have, like, 6 Mondays, we have an opening meeting, and 7 Fridays, we have a close out meeting. And 8 Tuesdays, the days may have changed from then 9 to now. I think it used to be Thursdays, used 10 to be a SHU meeting. And so, certain members, 11 all the members of the executive staff are 12 there. And then, certain department heads 13 attend these meetings. And during the 14 meetings, they will ask me, you know, is there 15 anything for psychology. 16 And then, I will discuss the inmates that 17 are on suicide watch. And what my plans is for 18 those inmates. Or if we were discussing the 19 Special Housing Unit, I'll discuss inmates that 20 I feel need to be observed closely. Should 21 have cellmates. Or may suffer from mental 22 health problems that I feel we just need to 23 keep an eye on, or make sure they are in more 24 visible, highly visible cells. Any mental 25 health concern I have in the SHU, I would EFTA00111925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 mention at the SHU meeting. 2 MR. : Okay. Anything else? 3 MR. : Yeah. I mean, do they 4 have input into psychology? Like, does the 5 executive staff, do they get to provide 6 recommendations, or ask, you know, can this 7 person be taken off, or this person taken off, 8 or this person taken on, or is it -? 9 MS. : Well, we make the decisions 10 as far as, we're the only ones that make the 11 decisions whether someone goes on watch, or off 12 watch. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MS. : They may, you know, not agree 15 or whatever, but that's our decision because 16 that is our profession. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MS. : But with regard to the 19 logistics in the prison, and how, where the 20 inmates are housed, and things like that. We 21 will make suggestions to executive staff. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : A lot of times - and most of 24 the time - they do listen to psychology. There 25 may be times they disagree for maybe EFTA00111926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 correctional reasons that, you know, they may 2 have their own ways of viewing where they 3 housed someone. Maybe therey will be an inmate 4 up there, or too many that they are separated 5 from, or maybe they are a gang member. I mean, 6 there may be other reasons why they can't 7 follow our recommendations. 8 And so, there might be exceptions to that 9 rule. So, now, pretty much what we do is, if, 10 like, let's say we have to house somebody alone 11 in SHU. We have to - we put whether we 12 recommend or not recommend. Now, we do that. 13 And I never recommend an inmate be single 14 celled. Ever. So, if they decide, that's on 15 them. And usually, it's because an inmate may 16 be too violent, or may be (Indizccrniblo 17 *00:15:59)sept out from all other inmates in 18 the facility because they are so, in all these 19 gangs, and they are cooperating. 20 And there is just too many bloods, let's 21 say, and there are blood, and they may have to 22 be by themselves, or they may have assaulted 23 other inmates, or officers, and they just can't 24 be celled with somebody. For whatever reason. 25 Or the U.S. Attorney's Office has said this EFTA00111927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 person needs to be by themselves. We're afraid 2 for their life, at that facility. So, I'm 3 never going to recommend somebody be by 4 themselves because it's never a good idea. But 5 there might be extenuating circumstances where 6 someone needs to be housed alone, and in that 7 case, you know, we would recommend an increase 8 rounds, or, you know, keeping an eye on that 9 inmate. 10 MR. : Now, as far as I 11 understand, what you are talking about with is 12 when they come off of psychological observation 13 or suicide watch, but when they actually go in 14 and come off of both suicide watch and 15 psychological observation, do they get to 16 provide an input into that, or is that solely a 17 psychology issue? 18 MS. : Whether they come off? 19 MR. : Go in or come off. 20 MS. : No. Just a psychology. 21 MR. : Okay. So, they don't 22 have any input into that? 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : I mean, they may make some EFTA00111928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 statements, but if we don't agreeL 2 MR. : Yeah, that's your 3 MS. : -- those decisions are up to 4 us. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Thank you. 8 MR. : Just a question, as a follow 9 up. You said that sometimes you might make 10 recommendations on housing an inmate by 11 themselves, based on a threat or whatever it 12 is. So, my understanding, based on that 13 statement, is that means every inmate is housed 14 with a cellmate, unless specifically 15 recommended by psychology, that they be housed 16 by themselves? 17 MS. : Never by psychology. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MS. : Psychology 20 MR. : That's (Indiscernible 21 *00:17:38). 22 MS. : -- is always going to 23 recommend. 24 MR. : Recommend. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MS. : A cellmate. But there might 2 be custodial issues. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Which preclude them from 5 being housed with another inmate. 6 MR. : So, any inmates that has a 7 history of possibly havinge suicide watch, or 8 any, or psychological observation, psychology 9 recommends that they be - recommends that they 10 be housed with a cellmate. 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Now, psychology -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- always they be housed 15 with a cellmate. 16 MS. : Right. 17 MR. : It's the custody may say 18 that they don't want them with a single cell. 19 MR. : Got it. 20 MR. : Correct? 21 MS. : Correct. 22 MR. : Thank you. "Meetings are 23 held on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays. 24 Generally present at those meetings are Dr. 25 , the warden, two associate wardens, the EFTA00111930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 captain, supervisory attorney, duty officer, 2 and the executive assistant. Department head 3 meetings are held on Wednesdays. Dr. I. 4 (Phonetic Sp. *00:18:27)?" 5 MS. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. "Completed the PSIQ for 7 Jeffrey Epstein on July 8, 2019. Epstein did 8 not mark anything on his PSIQ. And had it not 9 been Epstein, he would have been sent to 10 general population, and rated a care code one. 11 Dr. consulted with Dr. 12 about Epstein's risk factors, aside from his 13 psychological health, including high-profile 14 case and sex offense charges." Who is Dr. 15 16 MS. : He was the suicide prevention 17 coordinator in central office. Now, he has 18 been moved up to a higher position, but he is 19 in central office, and he called me right away, 20 when Epstein came, because of his risk factors. 21 We call those static risk factors. Those are 22 risk factors for suicidality that can't be 23 changed. So, in other words, if you come in 24 and you are a sex offender, and you are high- 25 profile, like Jeffrey Epstein was, that is EFTA00111931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 going to take place throughout his 2 incarceration. 3 It is not like he would just come in 4 depressed; we could give him medication; he 5 could get better. Those factors would always 6 be there. So, you know, he was concerned. 7 Also, when he came to the facility, that we 8 should keep, you know, a close eye on him. 9 And, you know, he was reviewing our notes and 10 everything, from afar. So, he did call us when 11 he was placed on watch and everything, and he 12 oversaw. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, he has access to your 15 notes? Does that go into some kind of a 16 database? 17 MS. : Yes. The psychology data 18 system. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : I don't know if he reviewed 21 the notes, but he called -. I'm trying to 22 remember. I remember him calling me and just 23 being in touch with me. You know, is 24 everything okay? And, you know, making sure we 25 assessed certain things. EFTA00111932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 MR. : Okay. So, all throughout 2 Epstein's stay, he was kind of reviewing your 3 notes, and -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- his status. 6 MS. : Or calling me and checking 7 in. 8 MR. : And who would have access 9 to that database, in those notes? 10 MS. : All the psychologists in the 11 department. Central office personnel would 12 have access to it. Other psychologists at 13 other institutions can access the notes 14 because, let's say he was transferred to 15 another facility, and they wanted to see his 16 notes from the BOP. They would have access. 17 MR. : Okay. And when you say 18 central office, you're talking about just 19 psychology central office, or do you mean 20 everyone that is -? 21 MS. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, only -- 23 MS. : Psychology. 24 MR. : -- only psychology -- 25 MS. : As far as -- EFTA00111933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- personnel. 2 MS. -- I know. Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So, no one outside 4 of psychology? 5 MS. : Not that I know of. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Because I don't work up 8 there. But I wouldn't think so. 9 MR. : Great. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : You might have stated 12 already. I might have missed it. 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Did Dr. make any 15 recommendations to you? Regarding Mr. Epstein. 16 MS. : No. Just to keep a close eye 17 on, when I put him on watch. He just called 18 and just, he asked me various questions on how 19 he was doing, and everything like that. So, he 20 just wanted to make us aware that, you know, he 21 was very high-profile. I mean, obviously, we 22 knew that. But, you know, also to keep an eye 23 on him, and to keep us alert to his risk 24 factors. 25 MR. : Okay. "When Epstein returned EFTA00111934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 from court that day, Dr. ordered he be 2 placed on watch status, to allow psychology to 3 make a complete - to complete a thorough 4 suicide risk assessment." Is that correct? 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : And that was on 8 MS. : And that was precautionary. 9 MR. : -- okay. 10 MS. : Because of his risk factors. 11 I wanted him assessed. So, I remember he was 12 placed on watch, and he was waiting for me to 13 come in and do his interview. And, you know, _ 14 came into the watch area, and he was, like, are 15 you Dr. ? And he's, like, get me out of 16 here. You know? Because he didn't endorse 17 anything. He didn't say he was suicidal. He 18 had just come from court, and he was just 19 waiting to come off of watch because, you know, 20 watch is very depriving, like we said, you 21 can't have anything there. 22 Like, not even clothes. It's just You 23 know, so, for him to be put in that situation. 24 He was really unhappy about it. And then, you 25 know, I explained, it was for his safety, and EFTA00111935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 precautionary, and I just wanted to make sure 2 he was, he would be celled appropriately, and 3 that he was okay. So, it wasn't that he had 4 endorsed anything, or said he was suicidal. It 5 was strictly precautionary. 6 MR. : And that was -- 7 MS. : When he first came in. 8 MR. : -- yeah. That was July 9 8th, 2019? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Just -- 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : -- for the record. Okay. 14 MR. "Dr. completed the 15 suicide risk assessment the next day. Epstein 16 was angry he was placed on observation, but he 17 continued to report no history of -", suicide- 18 aly? 19 MS. : Suicidality. Yeah. Yeah. 20 MR. Suicidality. "No substance 21 abuse. No major medical concerns. And no 22 overt risk factors. Epstein was polite, but 23 annoyed with Dr. a n 24 MS. : True. 25 MR. : "Epstein was kept in EFTA00111936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 observation, pending a suitable housing 2 placement, given his risk factors of being an 3 alleged sex offender. High-profile, and having 4 one living brother relative. She quoted 5 Epstein as saying, `Being alive is fun.' Dr. 6 believed it was a genuine statement." 7 Is that accurate? 8 MS. : A what? 9 MR. : A genuine -- 10 MR. : Genuine. 11 MR. : -- genuine statement. 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. "Dr. provided 14 the interviewing agents with a copy of the 15 suicide risk assessment, which was placed into 16 this case as reference three. On July 10th, 17 2019, Dr. met with Epstein in 18 observation. Epstein was still in observation, 19 due to housing concerns. He continued to be 20 psychologically stable at that time. Epstein 21 was aware, even if he got bail, he would be at 22 MCC for several more weeks." That statement, 23 "Epstein was aware even if he got bail." Was 24 your understanding that he was going to get 25 bail? EFTA00111937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 MS. : If I recall, I remember he 2 was hopeful. Now, I don't have my notes in 3 front of me, so I don't want to swear to what 4 was in each note -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MS. : -- because when I don't have 7 them in front of me, but from my recollection, 8 yes, he was hopeful that, you know, he would be 9 able to get out of jail. 10 MR. : Okay. So, based on 11 MS. : At that time. 12 MR. : -- your conversations with 13 him, he was expecting - hopeful - to get bail - 14 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. -- from being -. Okay. 17 "Epstein made several demands and voiced many 18 complaints to Dr. , which she passed onto 19 executive staff." What kind of demands? 20 MS. : I remember a lot of, like, 21 even his laxative, like, he wanted Colace 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:50), and he didn't like 23 the laxative he was getting. And, you know, he 24 just made a lot of demands. I would have to 25 refer to my notes, but it was just -- EFTA00111938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : -- you know, individual, his 3 individual needs. Things that he wanted. 4 MR. : What about -- 5 MS. : You know? 6 MR. complaints? It mentions 7 that he voiced many complaints, also. 8 MS. : Maybe that he was on watch. 9 I mean, I remember he didn't want to be on 10 there to begin with. Things about the jail, in 11 and of itself, I guess he wanted, I remember 12 him wanting to go to the Cadre unit (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:25:23), because at that time, we had 14 Paul Manafort (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:25) there. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : And he wanted to be - he knew 17 those people were in the prison - so, he wanted 18 to go be placed on a Cadre unit, which are 19 inmates that have already been sentenced, and 20 are serving small amounts of time. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : At which we couldn't put him 23 in, because he was pre-trial. But he wanted to 24 be with, like, other inmates he knew that were 25 there, that were more high-profile. EFTA00111939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : I remember him complaining 3 about that. 4 MR. : Anything else on that? 5 MR. : We have all of your notes 6 and the notes, you know, from psychology. 7 Would you want those for while we are 8 discussing, or do you think they are not 9 needed? 10 MS. : Well, if there is anything I 11 think -- 12 MR. : Okay. Just let us -- 13 MS. : -- you know, I have a pretty 14 good -- 15 MR. : -- know if -- 16 MS. : -- memory. 17 MR. : -- sure. 18 MS. : But I mean, if you are going 19 to ask me on this exact date, did he say this 20 exact -- 21 MR. : Absolutely. 22 MS. : -- then I would need my 23 notes. 24 MR. : No. I just -- 25 MS. : Yeah. EFTA00111940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I just -- 2 MS. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- wanted to know if you 4 would actually prefer them in front of you. 5 So, while we are talking, you can reference 6 them. Because if you can, we could easily get 7 them for you. 8 MS. : Okay. I will see how the 9 questions -- 10 MR. : Sure. 11 MS. : -- proceed. And if I am 12 uncomfortable with one, I will let you know. 13 Yeah. 14 MR. : Absolutely. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. "Epstein's cellmate for the 17 Special Housing Unit was decided by the warden 18 and the associate warden. Dr. was not 19 included on that decision. Her thought was 20 decided upon cellmate, Tartaglione, had a -." 21 Sorry. I don't know if that wording is wrong. 22 "Her thought was decided upon cellmate, 23 Tartaglione, had a lot to lose -." 24 MR. : Just before we go on. 25 So, you said that it was decided by the warden EFTA00111941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 and the associate warden. Do you know what the 2 names are of those individuals? Like, 3 would be the warden. 4 MS. was the warden. 5 MR. : Do you know who the 6 associate warden was? 7 MS. : I don't know who, but I know 8 he meets with the associate wardens. I don't 9 know which one. I know - was there 10 during that period of time. And I'm trying to 11 remember the other one. 12 MR. : Was it ? 13 MS. : Yes. Yes. No. took -. 14 Yeah. 15 MR. : I don't know if was 16 17 MS. : 18 MR. : -- there that early. 19 MS. : came after. 20 MR. Yeah. I think it was a 21 different AW. 22 MR. : Who was before ? 23 That's crazy. 24 MR. : But regardless, they were 25 the ones -- EFTA00111942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yeah. They -- 2 MR. okay. 3 MS. : -- they make the housing 4 decisions. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : You know, and who they felt 7 he should be placed with. 8 MR. : And then, let me just 9 read that sentence for you -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- so that -. It says, 12 "Her thought was the decided upon cellmate, 13 Tartaglione, had a lot to lose given his 14 history and charges, which made him a low-risk 15 to Epstein." 16 MS. : Right. I guess that was more 17 of an opinion. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MS. : You know, because my thought 20 was the reasonr—they placed him with that 21 inmate is, you know, he is placing facing the 22 death penalty or life. Tartaglione. For these 23 alleged murders. And when you are pre-trial, 24 and you are in that situation, you are on your 25 best behavior, and not looking to hurt EFTA00111943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 somebody, and get yourself into more trouble. 2 MR. : Okay. So, he was -- 3 MS. : So, a lot of times -- 4 MR. : -- he was facing -- 5 MS. : -- yeah. 6 MR. : -- life in prison? 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : I think he was facing the 10 death penalty. 11 MR. : Was he? Okay. And do 12 you know what he was -- 13 MS. : I don't know what his 14 situation is now. I know his attorneys, you 15 know, fight, has been fighting for him for a 16 long time. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : You know, to I think not get 19 the death penalty. 20 MR. : And do you know if, 21 anything else about him? Was he law 22 enforcement -- 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. -- or anything? Okay. 25 MS. : He was law enforcement, and EFTA00111944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 it was some drug related thing, and there was 2 four bodies, I think, and I don't know that 3 much about his case. I have met with him on a 4 couple of occasions. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : But, you know, he doesn't 7 come off as being, you know, he's not, like, a 8 gang member, or violent, or trying to prove 9 anything, per se. 10 MR. : So, his goal was to stay 11 clean and to do what was right, so he could 12 potentially beat his case? 13 MS. : That's what most people do, 14 pre-trial. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MS. : You know, it's not until they 17 go to pens that they become that way, unless, 18 you know, you are very young and antisocial, 19 you will act out. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MS. : But 22 MR. : So, just to clarify, he was 23 pre-trial, or was he already facing a life in 24 prison? 25 MS. : Yeah, I think he was -- EFTA00111945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 MR. : You said life in prison, and 2 death penalty? 3 MS. : -- he was still pre-trial. 4 They both were pre-trial. 5 MR. : Okay. So, he was trying to 6 avoid the death penalty 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : -- and trying to get life in 9 prison? 10 MS. : Right. Or maybe just get off 11 all together. 12 MR. : Got it. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : In his mind, he felt he could 16 get off all together, but that is unrelated, 17 but 18 MR. : Okay. Thank you. "On July 19 11th, 2019, Epstein was taken off of 20 observation, and housed in the SHU. Dr. 21 met with Epstein in the attorney conference 22 rooms that day, because Epstein was there all 23 day. Both Epstein and his attorney were 24 mocking Dr. for thinking Epstein was 25 suicidal. Epstein continued to make demands, EFTA00111946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 such as wanting to wear a brown uniform to his 2 attorney meetings. Dr. continued to 3 pass those concerns onto the SHU Lieutenant 4 5 MS. : I think so. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. "On July 16th, 2019, after 9 Epstein's bail hearing, he was called for," or, 10 "he called for Dr. to come to attorney 11 conference. Epstein didn't report any 12 psychological concerns, but chastised her 13 because his needs weren't being met. Dr. 14 felt Epstein thought of her as his 15 personal assistant. Epstein requested a kosher 16 diet, which she again passed on." 17 MR. : Wait. Before we go on. 18 It says he chastised you because his needs 19 weren't being met. 20 MS. : Okay. Well, this is, he, you 21 know, while he was on watch, and when I would 22 talk to him, he would tell me all these 23 different things that he wanted. Like I said, 24 the special laxative. A certain diet. Certain 25 housing arrangements. You know, he had a lot EFTA00111947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 of requests. And I guess, in the beginning, 2 you know, I tried to help him as best as I 3 could, and when I say personal assistant, I 4 don't really like that word. But what I was 5 really trying to say is that the officerLs 6 would say he would always say, where is Dr. 7 , where is Dr. ? You know, that, 8 so that I could, maybe I had pull and could get 9 certain needs for him met, within the prison 10 setting. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MS. : So, let me put it that way. 13 It sounds a little better than that. And then, 14 you know what? I wanted to follow up with him, 15 and do a session, but he was in attorney 16 conference, like, eight hours a day, during my 17 entire shift. So, I would have to go up there 18 just to check on him, and make sure he was 19 doing okay. So, when I would ask if he was 20 suicidal, he would be, like, I was never 21 suicidal, and, you know, he would laugh, and 22 the attorney would laugh at me. You know, so, 23 it was just kind of - that's what I meant. And 24 then, when he would chastise, he would become 25 angry. EFTA00111948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : You know, because he was very 3 demanding and entitled. So, if he got angry 4 when his needs weren't met, because he was used 5 to that kind of lifestyle, I assume. You know, 6 in the outside where, you know, at the snap of 7 his finger, he could have certain needs met. 8 And in the prison, it didn't work that way. 9 MR. : And just so we are clear 10 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : -- when you say "needs," 13 they are not actual needs that a person would 14 need. It's his wants, I guess, would be -- 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : -- better. 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Because did he have -- 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- did he have 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- everything that he 23 needed? 24 MS. : He had everything that basic 25 inmates had. EFTA00111949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : I guess one where 3 psychologists refer to, you know, people engage 4 in certain behaviors to get their needs met. 5 So, their wants and needs. So, yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Wants. 8 MR. : But do you believe that 9 he had everything he needs? Like , he needed. 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : For the most part. I mean, I 13 know he wanted a CPAP machine while he was on 14 watch. And I was, like, no. Because there was 15 cords, and things like that. So, you cannot 16 have your CPAP machine. And he wanted to get 17 off of watch at the end, because he wasn't 18 sleeping well, and he said he had sleep apnea, 19 and he wanted his machine. So, I wasn't going 20 to take him off until I felt he was ready, or 21 give him that, until he was off of watch. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. "On July 18th, a SHU review 24 was attempted on Epstein, but he was not seen 25 because he was in attorney conference. On July EFTA00111950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 23rd, 2019, Dr. received a phone call 2 regarding Epstein, because he was found in his 3 cell with a loose noose around his neck, and 4 had been placed on suicide watch. She ordered 5 a suicide risk assessment be completed on him. 6 Dr. • " Is that -? Did I -? "Completed 7 the suicide risk assessment later that morning. 8 During the assessment, Epstein told Dr. 9 he did not remember what happened. He 10 denied suicidality. Had future plans. And he 11 wanted to learn. He wanted to fight his case. 12 And he was acting like a big kid. Dr. 13 learned that Epstein had told staff that his 14 cellmate, Tartaglione, had tried to kill him. 15 Dr. kept Epstein on suicide watch." What 16 was your understanding, and did you have a 17 conversation with Epstein, after that point, 18 about his interaction with Tartaglione? What 19 exactly transpired -- 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. -- on that incident? 22 MS. : And that was the issue. 23 mean, he never retracted that statement. 24 mean, he said that he thought he was a 25 pedophile, and that he had taken this piece -. EFTA00111951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 I don't know if it was a piece, or a piece of 2 cloth, or whatever. And went like this around 3 his neck. And -. 4 MR. : Now, he told you this? 5 MS. : Yes. He told my staff that, 6 as well. 7 MR. : So, he told both you and 8 your staff? 9 MS. : Yes. I had seen him 10 subsequently. Again, I don't have my notes in 11 front of me -- 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MS. : -- but I remember him telling 14 me that. So, at that point, when we were doing 15 the suicide risk assessment, and Dr. was, 16 we had to conceptualize what actually happened. 17 You know, whether this is something he 18 inflicted on himself, and you know, the 19 reasonings why he would do something like that. 20 Or whether it was there was indeed an assault 21 of some form. And so, then, you know, it was 22 referred to SIS, too. So, he wasn't ever 23 really forthright on what occurred, while he 24 was on watch that time. 25 MR. : Did you ever believe - based EFTA00111952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on your conversations with Mr. Epstein -. 2 Sorry. I'll just end that. Based on your 3 conversations with Mr. Epstein, did you believe 4 what he stated, in terms of Tartaglione trying 5 to kill him? 6 MS. : Honestly, I did not know what 7 to believe at that point. So, my mind was 8 opened that there were potentially three 9 things, different things going on, and a 33 10 percent chance of it being any one of those 11 things. Because you don't know what happens 12 behind closed doors, in the SHU, or whether 13 they did have a disagreement. 14 MR. : You know what? It actually 15 goes into your hypothesis -- 16 MS. : Yes. Okay. 17 MR. : -- let me read that -- 18 MS. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- and maybe you can state 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- if that's right. "Dr. 22 had three hypotheses, in no particular 23 order, regarding this incident, of what this 24 incident meant. One) it was gamey by either 25 Epstein, Tartaglione, or both. Meaning, there EFTA00111953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 was something they wanted, and they weren't 2 getting. So, this is how they were going to 3 play the system to their advantage. Two) it 4 was rehearsal by Epstein, who really was 5 suicidal. Three) it was an assault committed 6 by Tartaglione." Was that the three? That is 7 your three hypotheses? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Was there any one of those 10 that you were leaning towards? 11 MS. : At that point, I didn't know 12 because -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. -- you know, he was just 15 placed on watch. The SIS investigation hadn't 16 taken place. I had -. There was enough 17 evidence it could have been any one of those, 18 because the phone call I received in the 19 morning, when he was placed on watch, the 20 lieutenant at that time had told me it was 21 She was, like, this doesn't - because they have 22 been around a while - this isn't a real thing. 23 It was like a little string, and, you know, he 24 was, he seemed fine. 25 And then, when I turned around, he would EFTA00111954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 be rocking back and forth. So, she, you know, 2 at that initial time, it almost looked a little 3 gamey. Like, that maybe he just went like this 4 with a piece of string, at that point. He had 5 lost his bail. I'm sorry. 6 MR. : No problem. 7 MS. : Let me just turn off my 8 phone. At that point, he had lost his bail 9 hearing. The judge denied him -. I'm sorry. 10 MR. : Bail. 11 MS. : The judge denied him bail. 12 MR. : So, right before the 13 23rd, the judge denied him bail, and then this 14 happened? 15 MS. : Right. 16 MR. : Okay. So -- 17 MS. : So, there is, that is the 18 gamey piece. I mean, if you want my 19 conceptualization, that, you know, that maybe 20 he did, you know, this sends a message, I can't 21 take jail, put me on house arrest. I'm either 22 going to hurt myself or someone else is going 23 to hurt me. Get me out of here. Because he 24 came in very entitled. Like I said, he had a 25 lot of money. He was meeting with his EFTA00111955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 attorneys every day. 2 He had a lot of money at that point. It's 3 not like he had lost trial. And Tartaglione 4 had a lot to gain, to save a life, because he 5 is facing life. You know, when you get a 6 letter that you save someone's life, that's 7 helpful in your case. I'm not saying that's 8 it, but I mean, I'm just trying to think of 9 hypotheses. So, that was where the gamey stuff 10 came in. That was the gamey piece. 11 The report from the lieutenant, the gains 12 that both of them could have by this behavior. 13 Could that be why that happened? Number two. 14 He is genuinely upset, and he was, it was a 15 rehearsal behavior, and perhaps he really 16 wanted to hurt himself. So, we need to be 17 cautious. So, it could be the gamey thing. It 18 could be the cautious thing. Or maybe Epstein 19 and Tartaglione had it out that night, and he 20 said something pompous or whatever, and the 21 other one got upset, and he did, you know, put 22 the rope around his neck, and that really 23 frightened Epstein, and that is why he went 24 into, like, this fetal position. 25 Maybe he was scared. You know, could it EFTA00111956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 have been any of those? And subsequently, I 2 think one of his attorneys was convinced that 3 Tartagliione had assaulted him. Not because, 4 guess he told his attorney the same attorney. 5 So, it could have been any -. I say 33 percent 6 chance it could have been any of those things. 7 MR. : Now, I understand that 8 that's what you thought -- 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- on the 23rd. Did that 11 33 percent chance change, after time, that you 12 believed it was one over the other? 13 MS. : I never knew. 14 MR. : No? 15 MS. : I mean, I never 16 MR. : So, you still -- 17 MS. : -- knew. 18 MR. : -- thought that they were 19 all equally plausible? 20 MS. : Well, I guess towards the end 21 of watch, I thought the assault wasn't as 22 plausible. Because that he really wanted to 23 hurt Epstein, because later on, Epstein was 24 saying he would go back and cell with him. So, 25 why would you want to go back and cell with EFTA00111957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 somebody that was trying to hurt you? So, but 2 again, I didn't do the SIS investigation. Sc, 3 and I never was privy to it. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MS. : So, I don't know what the 6 findings were. But after that, that made that 7 one less plausible. So, made the other two 8 more plausible, at that point in time, which 9 was either it was a rehearsal behavior, or two) 10 it was a game - it was gamey - to get him out 11 of jail because he was just denied -- 12 MR. : Who did he -- 13 MS. -- bail. 14 MR. : -- who did he make that 15 request to? That he wanted to go back within 16 the cell with Tartaglione? Was that to you 17 directly, or -? 18 MS. : I think he might have 19 mentioned something like that, because when I 20 was trying to figure out where to house him 21 later, I remember him mentioning that to me. 22 don't know if I put it in a note or not. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : But yeah. So, I began to EFTA00111958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 think that that was - it was less -. Why would 2 you want to go back in a -? But maybe he's not 3 thinking clearly. I don't know. But that made 4 me feel less about that. When he said that. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Anything else on that? 7 MR. : Now, being that he just 8 lost bail, had you heard that Tartaglione was 9 actually the one that notified the SHU staff 10 that there was an issue with Epstein, and that 11 is what made them respond to the cell? Had you 12 heard that? 13 MS. : I mean, I had heard that he 14 called out. 15 MR. : That's what I mean. 16 MS. : Yeah. I had -- 17 MR. : So -- 18 MS. : I had heard that. 19 MR. : -- with those -- 20 MS. : But I don't -. 21 MR. : -- factors in play, does 22 that make you believe that, you know, aside 23 from the fact that he wanted to go back with 24 Tartaglione, you know, at the end of his watch, 25 or observation, does that also make you think EFTA00111959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 maybe it was less likely that he attempted to 2 harm himzclf, or does that play into your 3 decision? 4 MS. : Still, those two, I just will 5 never know. At that -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : -- for that particular 8 circumstance. Was it, you know, a pact between 9 them, or maybe it wasn't even Tartaglione 10 trying to get any gain. Maybe it was Epstein 11 trying to call attention to himself, so that he 12 could be - so that he could go back to court, 13 and get that bail, and that they would feel 14 like he wasn't safe there. 15 MR. : Right. I guess -- 16 MS. : And let him go home. 17 MR. : -- my question maybe -- 18 MS. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- wasn't that clear. 20 MS. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So, I think you used the 22 example that Epstein, after he was coming off 23 of observation, and you were looking to see 24 where he was going to be housed, or who he was 25 going to be housed with, he mentioned that he EFTA00111960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 was going to go, you know, he would be willing 2 to go back with Tartaglione, and that was the 3 reason why you thought, maybe, that one of the 4 three was probably less likely. 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : What I'm saying is, do 7 the factors that Tartaglione called out to the 8 staff to say something is going on with 9 Epstein, come check him out, does that also 10 play into that, or no, you just placed that 11 simply in those other two, that -? 12 MS. : Simply in those other two. 13 And that 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : -- that, I don't know what to 16 make of that. 17 MR. : Okay. Sounds good. 18 MS. : Whether it was going to be 19 something to help, whether he really was 20 worried about Epstein. 21 MR. : Okay. I'll never know, 22 and -. 23 MR. : Sounds good. 24 MR. : This may not be something 25 that you might know. It's more towards health EFTA00111961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 services, but maybe you had a conversation with 2 health services. Do you know if they ever 3 medically examined him for any broken bones, 4 anything, kind of damages? Just, I know he had 5 here, the ligature mark on his neck, right 6 after the July 23rd incident. 7 MS. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Was there any -? Did they 9 examine him? Like, do you have an xray, MRI, 10 anything for broken bones in his neck? 11 MS. : That -- 12 MR. : Any kind of injuries? 13 MS. : I don't know. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : That, I don't know. You 16 would have to look in BEMR. Yeah. For that. 17 MR. : In where? 18 MS. BEMR. B-E-M-R. BEMR. 19 MR. : What's that? 20 MS. : That's the medical record. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Well, we have that. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : But as far as when you 25 are meeting him, though, at that time, did you EFTA00111962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 notice any injuries on him? 2 MS. : Just the mark. 3 MR. : Just the mark. 4 MS. : On the back of his neck. 5 Like -. 6 MR. : Do you remember if he was 7 complaining about any potential broken bones, 8 or collar type issues, or anything? 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : No? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : "On July 24th, 2019, Dr. 14 (Phonetic Sp. *00:44:22) met with 15 Epstein. Epstein reported he was fearful to 16 return to his cell with Tartaglione because 17 Tartaglione had called him a pedophile. 18 Epstein reported Tartaglione had put - had been 19 playing with the bedsheet before Epstein fell 20 asleep. And then, next thing Epstein 21 remembered, he was waking up snoring. Epstein 22 denied being suicidal, and reported being 23 unhappy with this legal situation. He had been 24 eating, drinking, and sleeping. Dr. 25 took Epstein off suicide watch, and placed on EFTA00111963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 psychological observation." 2 MR. : Nowe, on that, when the 3 inmate goes from suicide watch to psychological 4 observation, is the executive staff conferred 5 with? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : They are? And do they 8 provide an opinion on that, or was it just to 9 let them know? 10 MS. : No. We just let them know. 11 MR. : Just to let them know. 12 Okay. So, they don't have to say, oh, yes, we 13 agree, or please keep him on suicide watch, or 14 anything like that? 15 MS. : If they feel that way, they 16 can express it, and we will keep it in mind, 17 though, and again, we make those decisions. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : Now, being that this is July 21 24th, the next day, and he had possibly tried 22 to hang himself -- 23 MS. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- on July 23rd, and they 25 took him off - Dr. takes him off EFTA00111964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 suicide watch and places him on psychological 2 observation. Is that normal practice? 3 MS. : Yeah, because psychological 4 observation is, he's in the exact same cell, 5 he's being constantly observed. She spent a 6 long time with him. I think she interviewed 7 him, like, over an hour, an hour and a half. 8 And she just felt that there was no eminent 9 risk of at that time. Like, while he was in a 10 suicide watch cell, he wasn't going to do 11 anything to harm himself. So, we stepped him 12 down. I think maybe gave him a -. I don't 13 know if she gave him underwear, or gave him 14 something, so that he was more comfortable. 15 So, it wasn't so depriving. Because he kept 16 adamantly denying wanting to harm himself. 17 And, you know, she came and talked to me. I 18 didn't sit in that interview because she's a 19 licensed psychologist, and she felt it was safe 20 to step him down, because he would still be by 21 himself in that cell, constantly observe with 22 the lights on all night. Nothing would have 23 changed. 24 MR. : So, I guess -- 25 MS. : So. EFTA00111965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 MR. : -- what he wants to know, 2 though, is, was that normal? Is that normal 3 practice -- 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- for her to do that? 6 MS. : We do that. I mean 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. not all facilities have 9 the step down, the psychological observation. 10 Some people just have the suicide watch. And 11 then, they will give them privileges while they 12 are on suicide watch. But we have that, so, if 13 you want, because suicide watch is so strict, 14 that he couldn't even have a pair of underwear. 15 He couldn't, you know, have a piece of mail. 16 Nothing. So, we didn't feel he needed that 17 strict of supervision, but we still wanted him 18 constantly observed, to see, and we could 19 always step him back up, if he engaged in any 20 behavior, because he would be constantly 21 watched. 22 MR. : All right. So, suicide 23 watch and psychological observation are 24 extremely similar. 25 MS. : Very similar. Except that we EFTA00111966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 can give a little more privilege. Like I said, 2 we could give him a book to read. Or we could 3 give him a pair of - start with the underwear. 4 Or, you know, he could have toothpaste, and 5 give it back to brush his teeth. That type of 6 thing. It wasn't as strict. 7 MR. : And at the MCC, when an 8 inmate potentially attempts to harm themselves, 9 how long are they typically on suicide watch 10 versus observation, before -- 11 MS. : Well, that -- 12 MR. : -- they (Indiscernible 13 *00:47:51)? 14 MS. : -- depends on how the inmate 15 presents. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : I mean, I have had people on 18 suicide watch for long periods of time because 19 they can't verbalize any protective factors, 20 which would be reasons they have for wanting to 21 be alive at the time. Reasons they have to 22 live. Factors that we would look at to say, 23 hmm, there is more factors here that suggest he 24 wants to be alive, and that he has reasons to 25 be alive versus not. Versus risk factors. EFTA00111967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 So, at that time, he had verbalized enough 2 protective factors that Dr. felt 3 comfortable stepping him down to psychological 4 observation. I don't have her SRA in front of 5 me, but if you read it, it would have his 6 reasons for wanting to be alive, his 7 presentation of not exhibiting any acute mental 8 health symptoms, not being depressed. So, she 9 stepped him down at that point. 10 MR. : Okay. Now, do you know, 11 when they are on psychological observation, are 12 they allowed to have attorney visits? 13 MS. : They usually consult with us 14 to see if we feel comfortable with that. And I 15 do allow it. A lot of times, as long as, you 16 know, there is a lieutenant present, or there 17 is an officer present there. 18 MR. : Okay. And in this case, 19 do you know if Epstein was allowed attorney 20 visits while he was on observation? 21 MS. : I don't remember. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : To be honest. 24 MR. : So -- 25 MS. : I don't remember. EFTA00111968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- so, it's -- 2 MS. : It's very possible. 3 MR. : -- okay. And do you know 4 if the institution was contacted by anyone, 5 such as Epstein's attorneys, or the judge, 6 asking that he be taken off of suicide watch 7 and placed on observation because he wasn't 8 being afforded attorney visits, or for any 9 other reason? 10 MS. : No. I don't recall that 11 happening. 12 MR. : Okay. And on that same 13 note, do you recall either the judge, an 14 attorney, or anyone from the outside, 15 contacting the institution when he was taken 16 off of observation and placed back in the SHU? 17 MS. : I don't recall speaking to 18 any attorney about that. 19 MR. : No, not you speaking with 20 them. But I mean, them contacting - I'm 21 assuming they would contact the warden. 22 MS. : That, I don't know about. 23 MR. : And the warden never had 24 that, or anyone, any of the executive staff, or 25 anyone had any conversation with you or staff, EFTA00111969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 saying, this is what we are getting from the 2 outside, the judge contacted us, or the 3 attorney, you know, the attorneys -? 4 MS. : I don't know. 5 MR. : No? 6 MS. : Hmm-mm. 7 MR. : So, that was - you don't 8 believe that was at all factored into the 9 taking off of suicide watch? 10 MS. : Oh, no. It would never be 11 factored anyway. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : Yeah. 14 MR. : So, regardless, if they 15 contacted you, that wouldn't be a factor? 16 MS. : No. I mean, that wouldn't 17 They would never influence our decision. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : One way or another. 20 MR. : Okay. Great. 21 MR. : You mentioned before, when 22 somebody is taken off of suicide watch and 23 placed back in psychological, step down into 24 psychological observation, they are given back 25 one piece of item at a time. EFTA00111970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 MS. : Well, no, sometimes it could 2 be more than one. It depends on the situation. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : But what I am saying is, when 5 you were reading the paper -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MS. : -- it sounded like we just 8 give them everything. We make those decisions. 9 We may step them one at a time, if it is more 10 significant. We may give them a book. And a 11 pair of underwear. I mean, we may give them -. 12 It is just whatever, it is at the discretion of 13 the psychologists that interview them, on what 14 they are going to allow the inmate to have. 15 MR. : Do you know how it worked 16 with Mr. Epstein? Was he given one timc item 17 at a time back -? One or two items, or was he 18 given everything back? 19 MS. : I don't remember. I don't 20 think he was given everything back, initially. 21 That's for sure. But -. 22 MR. : Okay. I'm going to keep 23 going. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : "At that time, Dr. Was EFTA00111971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 not any clearer on which of her hypotheses 2 might have been true. Epstein could have been 3 using his charm to breed doubt about what 4 happened. Psychology had not been contacted by 5 Epstein's attorneys with concerns regarding his 6 mental health. On July 25th, 2019, Dr. 7 met with Epstein, who was in good spirits. And 8 greeted her by saying, `Welcome back.' Dr. 9 confronted Epstein on the attempted 10 suicide incident, in an attempt to get answers. 11 Epstein said he was baffled over it, and told 12 Dr. to give him some ques to help him 13 remember. He continued with his requests and 14 complaints, and did not want to go back to the 15 SHU. Epstein told Dr. , `I have a life, 16 and want to go back to living my life.' Dr. 17 kept him on observation because her 18 questions had not been answered, regarding 19 their suicide attempt." 20 MR. : Or the suicide attempt. 21 MR. "Regarding the suicide 22 attempt." 23 MS. : True. 24 MR. : "After a conversation with 25 Dr. , the national suicide prevention EFTA00111972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 coordinator from central office, Dr. got 2 involved in Epstein's housing. Dr. 3 recommended housing Epstein with a sex offender 4 in SHU, which Dr. passedr on via email, 5 to executive staff. On July -." 6 MR. : Do you know which 7 executive staff you sent that to? 8 MS. : No. I know I gave a bunch of 9 documentation, when I had my last interview. 10 There may have been an email. I don't remember 11 who -- 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MS. : -- it was so. 14 MR. : And did you concur with 15 his recommendation? 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Great. 18 MR. : "On July 26th, 2019, Dr. 19 met with Epstein. Epstein said he 20 needed to establish trust with Dr. -." 21 What did he mean by that? 22 MS. : He kept saying this thing, if 23 you want It was this weird thing he said, 24 something. "If you want my trust, I have to 25 trust you." And that was trust that, if he EFTA00111973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 asked for certain things, that I would follow 2 through with those wants. You know, if I said 3 I was going to do something, I would follow 4 through with it type of thing. I just remember 5 that. 6 MR. : Basically, he wanted you to 7 provide something, so he can reciprocate? 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : Basically, if you wanted 10 answers from him, you had to provide him with 11 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : -- is that what -? 14 MS. : It wasn't like that. It was 15 just - again, I probably would have to refer to 16 my notes for that one - but it was just a weird 17 thing that he used to say. Like, if you wan-, 18 if we want to have, like, this trusting 19 relationship type of thing, then, you know, I 20 have to trust that you are going to follow 21 through with your stuff, and you -. And then, 22 you can trust me. I don't know. It was 23 strange. I don't really know what he meant by 24 that. 25 MR. : Okay. "He continued with EFTA00111974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 complaints and jokes, making reference to Dr. 2 being Jewish, like him. It is against 3 Jewish religion to commit suicide." Is that 4 something he mentioned, or is that a statement 5 from you? 6 MS. : No. He joked about it one 7 time, in attorney conference. I didn't know 8 how he knew I was even Jewish, but he said 9 something to me, like, what's a nice Jewish 10 girl like you doing here? You know, working in 11 - or some comment like that. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And -- 14 MS. : But it is against the Jewish 15 religion to commit suicide. But he didn't say 16 anything until that one time in attorney 17 conference. 18 MR. : And you were in there, 19 the attorney conference, with him? 20 MS. : Well, because I went to go 21 check on him, remember, because I -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MS. : I know he was never in his 24 cell. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : He was never available. 2 MR. : And he stated that? 3 MS. : Yeah. He made, like, in 4 front of the attorney, like, a little, a little 5 joke. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Like that. 8 MR. : And just the way that it 9 reads in there, it doesn't say that he stated 10 it, or you stated it. It just says, "It is 11 against the Jewish religion to commit suicide." 12 So, just -- 13 MS. : Maybe -- 14 MR. : -- for context. 15 MS. : -- that might have been in 16 one of our notes. I don't know if he mentioned 17 that. But -- 18 MR. : But he -- 19 MS. -- I don't -- 20 MR. : -- but he 21 MS. : I don't know where that 22 came from. 23 MR. : -- but he said it to you 24 in the attorney conference? He was with you -- 25 MS. : Yeah. He didn't -- EFTA00111976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- in the attorney -. 2 MS. say anything about it's 3 against the Jewish -. Oh, maybe he did. I 4 don't remember. He may have. He may have, in 5 a joking way, said something like that to me. 6 I don't remember, to be honest. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : I would have to see 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MS. : -- if that is one of my 11 notes. Or if it is something that was just in 12 passing at attorney conference. I just 13 remember that one incident. About the Jewish 14 thing. Like, what's a Jewish girl like you 15 doing here? Or something. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : "Epstein said he did not like 18 pain, and didn't want to hurt himself. Epstein 19 had been interacting with the companions 20 assigned to him regularly. On July 27th, 2019, 21 Dr. met with Epstein, who was anxious 22 about going back to SHU, due to the fact he did 23 not know how he got the marks. Epstein did not 24 answer Dr. questions about that night. 25 She had begun working more therapeutically with EFTA00111977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 him, and provided him with handouts to cope 2 with housing. Lieutenant Doctor's 3 investigation into a possible assault regarding 4 this incident still had not returned any 5 answers. Dr. kept Epstein on 6 psychological observation." 7 MR. : Just real quick on that. 8 It just says, "He was anxious about going back 9 to the SHU due to the fact he did not know how 10 he got the marks." So, he had changed his 11 story of how he got the marks, at that point? 12 MS. : He didn't change the story. 13 He just didn't say anymore it was Tartaglione. 14 He was then, I don't know how I got the marks. 15 So, he -- 16 MR. : So, he went -- 17 MS. : -- he kept changing his 18 story. 19 MR. : -- all right. So, he 20 went from Tartaglione did it, to I don't know 21 how I did it?, 22 MS. : Right. 23 MR. : Or how it happened?, 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : And do you know why that EFTA00111978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 happened, or did you question him about that? 2 MS. : Yeah, but he just kept being 3 vague, like he didn't know anything, or that, 4 like, he blacked out, or he doesn't recall how 5 it happened. 6 MR. : Was he questioned, like, 7 well, before you said that Tartaglione did it, 8 and now you are saying you don't recall. 9 MS. : I don't know if Dr. 10 confronted him in that way, because we are not, 11 like, investigators. 12 MR. : Sure. Sure. 13 MS. : You know, so, we don't -. 14 Psychologists don't always think that way. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : So, I don't know, but I 17 think, likely, she probably mentioned that, and 18 then, he was, like, oh, well, I don't, I don't 19 know. He was very vague. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : In giving us the reason. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : That happened. 24 MR. : "On July 28th, 2019, Dr. 25 met with Epstein, who appeared the same. EFTA00111979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 His logbook showed no signs of suicidality, and 2 he was participating in his legal meetings. 3 There had been no contact from Epstein's legal 4 team regarding any mental health concerns." 5 MR. : Okay. So, there it says 6 that he actually was meeting with his legal 7 team. 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MS. : So, being that he was on 11 psych ops, that he wasn't acutely, eminently 12 suicidal, that he had been denied any current 13 thoughts of hurting himself, and over the past 14 several days, while on watch, he hadn't 15 displayed any self-harm behaviors. Or any odd 16 or unusual behaviors. Likely, we didn't have a 17 problem with him going there, as long as there 18 were staff up there -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. to watch him. 21 MR. : So, he would actually go 22 from observation to the attorney conference 23 rooms? 24 MS. : And then, be escorted back. 25 Yes. EFTA00111980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 MR. : Okay. So, it wasn't that 2 they were meeting him at the suicide 3 MS. : No. 4 MR. : -- watch area. 5 MS. : We never do that. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Do you know if those are all- 10 day meetings? Like, he normally had, or was it 11 just short meetings? 12 MS. : I don't know how long the 13 meetings were. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Yeah. Because if you 16 don't know, he was meeting with the attorneys 17 from, like, 7:00 or 8:00 a.m., up until, like, 18 7:00 p.m., every day. At least outside of this 19 20 MS. : Yes. I knew that. Because 21 that's -- 22 MR. : -- but you don't know it 23 24 MS. : -- that's why I could never 25 see him, but I don't remember, while he was on EFTA00111981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 watch, how many hours a day. I think he was 2 probably there for a significant period of 3 time. 4 MR. : While he was on 5 observation? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : But then, he would be 9 returned to psych ops while someone would sit 10 on him. 11 MR. : But is that normal, though? 12 I mean, someone who is on psych ops be - you 13 mentioned that somebody who was in psych 14 observation should be monitored constantly. 15 Right? There's someone monitoring -- 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- them? 18 MS. : But he was right in front of 19 the officer that worked at attorney conference. 20 He was right there. And right by the 21 lieutenant's office. So, they could be 22 observing him the whole time. 23 MR. : Okay. So, someone 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : -- is sitting there, watching EFTA00111982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him -- 2 MS. : Yeah. 3 MR. -- at all times? 4 MS. : Yeah. There was somebody 5 there. Like, the way our attorney. I don't 6 know. Have you been to our attorney conference 7 room? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MS. : Do you know where the officer 10 sits there, there is an attorney conference 11 room right next to him, that has windows. 12 That's where Epstein was every day. 13 MR. : So, you could see in? 14 MS. : Full. Yeah. You could see 15 his, like, white - you come off the elevator 16 you saw his white hair. Like, he was right 17 there. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Like, he could be seen by the 20 attorney conference officer. At all times. 21 And he was with his attorneys. So, I mean, it 22 God forbid, he started banging his head for one 23 second, the officer was right outside his 24 window. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 MS. : Yeah. So, we felt, you know, 2 it was okay, and again, he wasn't on suicide 3 watch. We didn't think he was eminently 4 suicidal. But precautionary, we had him on 5 psych ops, because we - the vagueness of his 6 responses. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : And not feeling completely 9 comfortable putting him in GP, until we 10 observed him over a period of time. So, that 11 is why. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : Because he wasn't on suicide 14 watch anymore. So. 15 MR. : Anything else on that? 16 MR. : No. I guess just on that 17 note, if he is meeting his, with his attorneys, 18 while he was on observation, are his 19 psychological needs being met? 20 MS. : Well, that's why we had to go 21 up there, and talk to him. 22 MR. : Right, right, right. 23 MS. : So, we would go up there and 24 interview him. 25 MR. : And around how long would EFTA00111984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 those interviews take? 2 MS. : I guess five to ten minutes. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Just to check in. But a lot 5 of times, on suicide watch, they were, too. I 6 mean, we would review the suicide watch book 7 throughout the night, because we are not there 8 24 hours. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MS. : So, we would look at his book 11 from before his visit, through the night. And 12 then, we would see him daily. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MS. : We would see him And 15 maybe, some of the times we saw him before he 16 saw his attorneys. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MS. : See, I don't, I don't know if 19 -. I know -- 20 MR. : So, as far as -- 21 MS. : I personally went up there 22 once or twice. 23 MR. : -- but what -- 24 MS. : I don't know if Dr. 25 maybe went there once or twice, because when EFTA00111985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 she went back there to see him, he was with his 2 attorney. 3 MR. : Now, would that be any 4 different than if he were not seeing his 5 attorneys? Was that the same amount of time 6 that psychology would see him, if he was with 7 his attorneys, or staying in the cell where he 8 was being observed? 9 MS. : Yeah. We usually, like, 15 10 minutes. I mean, it's not a therapy session. 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MS. : We're just, you know, doing a 13 mental status, seeing how they are doing. Are 14 you eating or sleeping? Are you having 15 thoughts of hurting yourself? We read the 16 book. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MS. : In its entirety, for the past 19 24 hours, to see, did he voice anything to the 20 companions that he wanted to hurt himself. Did 21 he take his meals? Did he eat his meals? Did 22 he shower? Is he, you know, is he displaying 23 any behaviors that are consistent with 24 depression? So, we look at all of that. And 25 then, we interview him. We do the mental EFTA00111986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 status. We ask him how he's doing. And so, 2 that would be pretty consistent. It might have 3 been a little shorter on occasion, if he was up 4 there with his attorneys, because his attorneys 5 were there. So, it wouldn't really be 6 confidential. But we do -- 7 MR. : Oh, so, when you were 8 conversing with him, it would be in front of 9 his attorneys? 10 MS. : yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Is that normal? 13 MS. : Yeah. Well, because he was 14 in there with his - he has a right to his legal 15 meetings - so, he was with his attorneys. It 16 wasn't every time. I mean, there might have 17 been one or two occasions where we had to see 18 him up there, because he was in the meeting 19 with the attorneys. So, yeah. We talked to him 20 in front of his attorney to make sure he was 21 okay. 22 MR. : Now, when you say he has 23 a right to his attorneys, if he was on suicide 24 watch, would he have the right to his 25 attorneys? EFTA00111987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 MS. : Normally, I really do try to 2 get them to meet with their attorney. I mean, 3 that's only if they are actively, like, 4 cutting, or 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MS. : -- wanting to hurt 7 themselves, then I would have a lieutenant up 8 there. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MS. : Like, I always try to give 11 people the right to be with their attorneys 12 because that could make them even more 13 depressed. 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MS. : If you deprive them of being 16 able to work on their legal case. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : All right. "On July 29th, 19 Dr. visited Epstein. Epstein expressed 20 that he would like to stay in psychological 21 observation because it is safe. Epstein had 22 been requesting his CPAP machine, so that he 23 could get a good night's sleep. Due to the 24 machine having a cord, this could not be 25 accommodated in psychological observation. EFTA00111988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein was given a chance to stay in 2 psychological observation -". 3 MR. : A choice. Not a chance. 4 MR. : Sorry. 5 MR. : Epstein was given 6 MR. : "Epstein was given a choice 7 to stay in psychological observation one more 8 night without it, or go to the SHU with it. He 9 chose to stay in psychological observation one 10 more night. Dr. consulted with the 11 executive staff, prior to this decision." 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. "On July 30th, 2019, Dr. 14 transitioned Epstein back to the SHU. 15 Dr. sent an email, updating the 16 appropriate staff for Epstein's transition off 17 psychological observation, and the need for him 18 to be housed with a cellmate." 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : Bear with us. 21 MS. : So, that contact was at his 22 cell. It wasn't with the attorney. If there 23 was, like I said, a couple of contacts that 24 were in attorney conference, they were field 25 most of them were at his cell, we caught him EFTA00111989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 before he went up to his legal visits. That 2 last visit was in person. I remember that 3 visit. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : With the CPAP. 6 MR. : Now, do you recall, when Dr. 7 transitioned Epstein back to the SHU, was 8 that solely the decision of psychology, or was 9 there any recommendation from executive 10 management? Like, the warden, the associate 11 warden, or somebody from the outside, 12 (India,ctnible 13 asked before. 14 MS. : No. That was our decision. 15 After him being between suicide watch and psych 16 ops for almost a full week. It was our 17 decision that he was not eminently suicidal, 18 and could be transitioned. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And just to, I mean, 21 Epstein expressed that he would like to stay in 22 psychological observation because it was safe. 23 So, he actually preferred psychological 24 observation over the SHU? 25 MS. : Because he wasn't being able EFTA00111990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 to be housed where he wanted to be housed. He 2 didn't want to go to Special Housing. Like I 3 said, he wanted to be housed in the Cadre unit. 4 He wanted to dictate his housing arrangements. 5 When they weren't what he wanted them to be, 6 and I guess maybe he heard rumors, or whatever, 7 that the SHU was, like, a bad place, or a scary 8 place, he didn't want to go back there. 9 But a lot of inmates don't want to go to 10 SHU, and that is why, earlier, when you said a 11 lot of people fake mental illness, or fake 12 suicidality, so that they can come down to our 13 suicide watch area, and just interact with the 14 companions, and hope that maybe someone will 15 slip them something they couldn't have while 16 they were in the SHU. Or just to get a timeout 17 because it could be loud up there, because 18 inmates will scream outside their cells, 19 because I don't know if you are familiar with 20 an AD-SEG (Phonetic Sp. *01:06:16) unit, or a 21 Special Housing Unit, where inmates are in a 22 cell, with a cellmate, like, 23 out of 24 hours 23 a day. So, it gets loud and rowdy. 24 So, a lot of times, people try to come 25 down. It's, like, almost, like, the Marriott, EFTA00111991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 you know, to come to our suicide watch area, 2 where it is peaceful and quiet, and they don't 3 have to hear things, or if they are having 4 problems with officers up there. So, it's not 5 uncommon for any inmate to try to avoid going 6 to the Special Housing Unit. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : You know, it's not an 9 uncommon occurrence. 10 MR. : Yeah. And I'm assuming - 11 12 MS. : I never have any -- 13 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 14 *01:06:50). 15 MS. : -- inmates say I want to go 16 back to the, you know, the SHU. 17 MR. : From observation? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : So, it's bet -- 20 MS. : Very rarely. 21 MR. : -- yeah. 22 MS. : Unless they are so sick of it 23 because they have been deprived for so long 24 down there, that they feel that their wants and 25 needs will be met, or better suited up in the EFTA00111992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 SHU, then they will be, like, okay, I'll go 2 back, I'll go back. 3 MR. : Okay. But -- 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- in observation, he was 6 housed by himself. Correct? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : And he wanted to be 9 housed by himself. Correct? 10 MS. : Not necessarily. Because he 11 wanted to go to the Cadre Unit, which is a 12 dorm-style unit. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : With all the other, with tons 15 of other inmates. 16 MR. : All right. Yeah. 17 MS. : He just, there were certain 18 places he didn't want to go. 19 MR. : SHU. So, he just 20 MS. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- rather be in 22 observation than the SHU. 23 MS. : Right. I mean, this is a guy 24 that has never jailed before. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00111993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MS. : He's in, you know, his late 2 sixties. He's probably afraid, like anybody 3 would be. 4 MR. : So, he preferred the 5 general housing unit over the SHU, though? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Particularly, the dorm-style 9 Cadre Unit. 10 MR. : Yeah. Maybe I'm not -. 11 Is that different than the general housing 12 unit? 13 MS. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : Because in the regular 16 housing units, you are celled with a cellmate 17 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MS. -- at night. Whereas in the 20 Cadre Unit, there are tiers of dorms. So, it 21 is a bunch of bunkbeds. And so -- 22 MR. : Oh, it's per -- 23 MS. -- it's more open. 24 MR. : -- it's per tier, would it 25 be? EFTA00111994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 MS. : I'm not sure per tier. I 2 know there is about - it can house, like, 100, 3 120 inmates. The dorms. 4 MR. : With no, like, doors, or 5 not separated? 6 MS. : No. There is just a tier. 7 There is a -. No. 8 MR. : So, he -. So, we had 9 always heard, up until this time, that he 10 wanted to be housed alone. What you are saying 11 is he wanted to be actually housed with more 12 people? 13 MS. : Well, that is where -. Well, 14 he wanted to be housed there, where Manafort 15 and other people had been housed, where Cadre 16 inmates were housed. Maybe because the Cadres 17 were, he felt they were less dangerous. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : I don't know. I know when he 20 came in, he didn't like being on the unit. 21 That was for sure. 22 MR. : And is the Cadre 23 MS. : You know? 24 MR. : -- Unit the low -- 25 MS. : Yeah. EFTA00111995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- security level -- 2 MS. : -- yeah. 3 MR. : -- inmates? 4 MS. : Yeah. Because those are the 5 ones that have been sentenced, to lower 6 sentences. 7 MR. : Okay. So, he wanted to 8 be where the lower sentence inmates were. 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : That was the only place, I 12 think, he was wiling to go. In our 13 conversations. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Was Paul Manafort still 16 there, at that point? 17 MS. : I don't know if he had 18 recently left. He thought he was still there 19 because he was only there briefly. 20 MR. : So, he's not asking -. So, 21 he, as if he knows Paul Manafort, and he wants 22 to go be housed with Paul Manafort. He just 23 wants to be -. He just wanted to be in the 24 same area as Paul Manafort was housed. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00111996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : And there was somebody else. 3 I can't remember who he said. There was 4 somebody else, more high-profile, that was 5 there, and he said he wanted to be where that 6 person was. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Maybe he felt it was safer 9 because they were surviving there, or whatever. 10 I don't know what his thought process was, but 11 that's how, that's -. I think it's -. I mean, 12 it was part of his personality. I mean, he 13 wants to be associated with higher-level 14 people, and these were, that was a higher-level 15 inmate. You know, so, he would feel 16 comfortable being amongst those type of people. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : Does that make sense? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MS. : Yeah. Okay. 21 MR. : I'm going to keep going. 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : "Dr. discussed the 24 importance of SHU inmates having a cellmate for 25 the following reasons: it decreases isolation; EFTA00111997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 it decreases privacy; provides a distraction; 2 provides a rescue opportunity." 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. "At risk settings for 5 inmates, including housing, single cells, and 6 private spaces. SHU employees receive training 7 on suicide prevention quarterly. All employees 8 receive suicide prevention training once a 9 year. Dr. provided slides from MCC's 10 suicide prevention training to the interviewing 11 agents, reference that, referred to as 12 references any denying, attached to his report. 13 She stated all lieutenants should be aware of 14 the cellmate policy. Both due to the training 15 regularly provided, and psychological services 16 constantly reminding them of the procedure, and 17 needs of specific inmates. Dr. noted, 18 after Epstein's death, his old cellmate's label 19 was still on his door. That is one of the 20 things that the psych department looks for, in 21 their daily rounds in the SHU, that there are 22 two bodies in each cell." Now, that label on 23 the door, if an inmate is removed, should that 24 label have been removed, too? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00111998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : How soon? 2 MS. : It should have been done 3 immediately, especially since he was housed 4 with Epstein. 5 MR. : Why should it have been 6 removed immediately? 7 MS. : Because then his cellmate was 8 bailed out, and wasn't coming back. 9 MR. : By removing it, would that 10 also give SHU officers, inform the SHU officers 11 that there is only one inmate in that cell? 12 MS. : That would have helped. Yes. 13 Most definitely. It wouldn't have been the 14 only way they should know, but it definitely 15 would have —helped the situation. 16 MR. : Are we talking about 17 August 9th right now? 18 MS. : I don't know. 19 MR. : Yeah. Because it says, "Dr. 20 noted that after Epstein's death, his 21 old cellmate's label was still on his door." 22 MR. : Okay. So, who would have 23 been, on August 9th, the one who would have 24 done the rounds in the SHU? 25 MS. : The psychologist?, EFTA00111999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MR. : I guess, it sounds like - 2 3 MS. : Well, psychology, psychology 4 rounds is weekly. We do weekly rounds. And 5 monthly SHU reviews, which are more intense 6 rounds. So, we didn't see Epstein every single 7 day. 8 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 9 MS. : That, we didn't do. We don't 10 do daily rounds. We do weekly rounds. 11 Sometimes, we are up there, we are up there 12 almost every day, especially when we were, our 13 SHU was full, because there is always inmates 14 that have concerns or needs. So, if we are up 15 there, and an inmate has a concern, we go to 16 that tier and see those inmates. 17 MR. : Just those -- 18 MS. : But as far as going cell to 19 cell, we do that weekly. 20 MR. okay. Because this, 21 yeah, this last sentence said, "This is one of 22 the things the psych department looks for in 23 their daily rounds in the SHU -- 24 MS. : In our rounds -- 25 MR. : -- that there are two EFTA00112000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 bodies in each cell." 2 MS. : In our rounds. Like, if we 3 are doing our weekly rounds, and we notice that 4 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. someone doesn't have a 7 cellmate, especially if we know that person is 8 a care two and above, we are going to say 9 something. Like, why is this inmate housed by 10 themselves? 11 MR. : So, when they said daily 12 rounds, you are not doing that every day. 13 MS. : Hmm-mm. 14 MR. : They meant your weekly 15 rounds. 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And do you know what day 18 of the week that was done back then? 19 MS. : I don't. 20 MR. : No? 21 MS. : I do not know the I would 22 have to look at the SHU logs. 23 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 24 it was done on that Friday, on August 9th, the 25 day before? EFTA00112001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 MS. : No. But I do know, on August 2 8th, before I left for vacation, I personally 3 went up there, just to check on him, and he had 4 a cellmate at that time. 5 MR. : Right. Okay. 6 MR. : Anything else? 7 MR. : Nope. 8 MR. "Dr. was aware that 9 Dr. attended the close out 10 meeting that week, and discussed Epstein's 11 desire to have a single cell, but his need for 12 a cellmate. Dr. was unaware regularly 13 rounds by the correctional officers were not 14 being completed. She is considered executive 15 staff, so officers would not tell her they were 16 not being completed, and inmates wouldn't tell 17 her because of fear of retaliation by the 18 guards. 19 Dr. noted Lieutenant is very 20 regimented, and regularly does what she asks. 21 Dr. was not aware that Epstein signed a 22 new will on August 8th. Had she known, it 23 would have been considered a red flag, and 24 Epstein would have been placed on psychological 25 observation. The attorneys did not tell anyone EFTA00112002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 from psychological services that it had 2 occurred." So, we had a couple of questions. 3 How did you learn that he had signed a will? 4 MS. : The newspaper. 5 MR. : In the paper? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : That's not something that you 8 learned firsthand, from the attorneys, or by 9 being -- 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : -- okay. 12 MR. : Do you know if he 13 actually, in fact, signed a new will on the 14 8th? 15 MS. : No. Hearsay. 16 MR. : Okay. Did you bring that 17 up during the interview, or did the agents ask 18 you about it? 19 MS. : That, I don't remember. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : How it came up. They may 22 have asked me a question, if I knew about it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : And I may have said, probably 25 said no. I didn't know about it directly from EFTA00112003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 them. I knew about it from reading it in the 2 paper. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : But one thing I did say, 5 after reading the paper, gee, that would have 6 been helpful information. Because had I known 7 that, I would have said, that is a red flag, 8 and let's put him back on, and just watch him 9 for a few more days, and see if we can get more 10 information from him. About why he would do 11 that, or what was going on. 12 MR. : Should have the attorneys 13 notified you? 14 MS. : Well, the attorneys have 15 their own ethical, you know, confidentiality 16 issues. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MS. : So, you know, a lot of times, 19 attorneys call us all the time if they are 20 concerned about their patients. I mean, I get, 21 I used to get, like, several a week, where 22 attorneys would call in and say, you know, I'm 23 worried, I talked to my client on the phone. 24 don't like how he sounded. Can psychology 25 check on that inmate? And I was, like, why EFTA00112004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 didn't they do that this time? Because they 2 always do that. And we do. We go immediately. 3 So, if that was true, I wish someone would have 4 called us, but they didn't. 5 MR. : All right. Thank you 6 14t4iseerftikrie-L94-t-1-6 )Did you have the key 7 to the restroom? I think that thatLs 8 (Indi2ccrniblc *01:15:36)person needed it. 9 MR. : Oh. 10 MR. : Is this the only one we 11 have? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MS. : But, you know, again, like, 14 attorneys have their own ethical -. Like, they 15 can't -. I don't know what their ethical 16 standards are, but I guess, if he didn't say he 17 was going to kill himself, and he's just 18 signing a will, they don't -. I don't think 19 they have to tell, call us. It would be a 20 choice if they had a concern, that he was going 21 to hurt himself. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : But -. 24 MR. : Well, before -. 25 MS. : Yeah. Yeah. EFTA00112005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 1 MR. : Did he ever bring up changing 2 his will in any of his your meetings, or the 3 psychological meeting 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : -- psychological meetings 6 with him? 7 MS. : No. 8 MR. : That was the first time you 9 guys had, you ever heard that would be from -- 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. -- (Indiscernible *01:16:30). 12 MS. : After the fact. I read that, 13 and I was, like -. 14 MR. : And now, why would it be a 15 red flag? 16 MS. : Because he is in jail. He is 17 not happy being in jail. He is facing a lot of 18 time. He's high risk. And he is signing a 19 will. You know, I definitely would have 20 interviewed him. I can't say 100 percent he 21 would be put on psych ops, but if he didn't 22 give me the answers that I was looking for, he 23 would have been put on some form of 24 observation, until we could get the answers 25 that we were looking for. EFTA00112006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : "Dr. mentioned that 2 was the first day ever, she ever heard about 3 the will being changed. There was no 4 discussion with Epstein before 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : -- about the will." 7 MS. : Epstein never shared that 8 with me. It was something that I read after 9 the fact. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MS. : And again, I don't know if 12 it's true or not true. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. "On August 8th, 2019, Dr. 15 attended the SHU meeting. She couldn't 16 recall all who was there, but it included unit 17 team members, executive staff, and attorneys 18 for MCC. Nothing significant was discussed 19 about Epstein at the meeting. She conducted 20 SHU rounds, to see Epstein." Is this what you 21 mentioned before, that before you went on 22 vacation? 23 MS. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Okay. "He had a cellmate at 25 the time, and Epstein had the lower bunk. He EFTA00112007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 didn't have any visible problems, appeared in 2 good spirits, and reported getting along with 3 his cellmate. He had received his pack number, 4 which allows him to make phone calls, and he 5 had asked for his books from psychological 6 observation." When he received his pack 7 number, do you know if it was active, and was 8 he able to make phone calls with it? 9 MS. : That, I don't know. That, 10 only unit team would know. 11 MR. : Do you know around what 12 time the SHU meeting would have been held? 13 MS. : Thursdays. Thursdays, at 14 that time, they say that my meetings have 15 changed with different -- 16 MR. : Sure. 17 MS. every warden changes it. 18 MR. : And what time 19 MS. I believe they -- 20 MR. : -- did you work? 21 MS. were in the morning. 22 Like, around 9:00. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Like, 9:00. 25 MR. : So, if around, like, EFTA00112008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 3:00, 3:30, the Marshals sent an email saying 2 that his cellmate was going to be transferred, 3 that wouldn't have been discussed at that SHU 4 meeting? 5 MS. : Hmm-mm. 6 MR. : And did you know anything 7 about any emails -- 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : -- regarding -? 10 MS. : And I didn't know the inmate 11 was The inmate -. I didn't know that he 12 went to court that day, or anything. I was not 13 even in town. 14 MR. : Right. I'm saying the 15 day before -- 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- on August 8th, there 18 was emails that were sent from the U.S. Marshal 19 Service, saying that his cellmate Reyes was 20 going to be transferred to another institution. 21 I was just wondering if that was at all 22 discussed -- 23 MS. : No. Not that I -- 24 MR. : -- that wasn't discussed. 25 MS. -- and I, likely, I don't EFTA00112009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 know. Yeah. I was -. Huh. I don't remember 2 hearing that at all. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Because that would have been 5 6 MR. : Even after the fact? 7 MS. : -- that would been something 8 that, you know, the lightbulb kind of would 9 have went on. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 MS. : I was pretty shocked to find 12 out that he didn't have a cellmate. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MS. : After he killed himself. 15 That was the first question I asked. When I 16 was away, and I was went to Vancouver, and the 17 times difference was off, and my flight was 18 delayed. I had slept for, like, two hours. It 19 was very strange. I went into the restroom, 20 you know how you bring your phone? I know, 21 TMI. I pressed my phone, and all these alerts 22 came on, and everyone was texting me, and then, 23 I saw that he had hung himself, and I was just, 24 like, how could that happen? And the first 25 thing, when I called my associate warden, the EFTA00112010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 first thing I asked is, did he have a cellmate? 2 Because that was the first thing that came in 3 my mind. And she was, like, no. 4 MR. : What -? So -- 5 MS. : So -. 6 MR. : -- who was this? 7 MS. : I called 8 MR. : And what did she say 9 about that? 10 MS. : You know, she just said no. 11 And then, I was just, like, I started, like, 12 crying, because I was, like, why? Like -. 13 MR. : And did she respond to 14 where his cellmate was? 15 MS. : She didn't. She was, like, I 16 don't know, Dr. . You know, this was all 17 just that morning. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MS. : I mean, she was probably, you 20 know, very upset, too. And that was it. I 21 mean, later on, I found out what happened, 22 which was that his cellmate went to court. He 23 was -- 24 MR. : And so -- 25 MS. : -- bonded out, and that they EFTA00112011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 didn't replace the cellmate with him. 2 MR. : -- so, that is not 3 accurate information. So, who told you that he 4 went to court and bonded out? 5 MS. : That was later on. I don't 6 remember the person who told me that. 7 MR. : But someone told you he 8 actually went to court, and not transferred to 9 a different institution? 10 MS. : That's what I had heard. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : That he had gone to court, 13 and then he was -. That might not be accurate, 14 though. He was bailed out, or he wasn't, 15 didn't come back. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : That's what I had heard. 18 MR. : Sure. But you don't 19 remember where you heard that from? 20 MS. : Hmm-mm. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Well, just to clarify, I 23 think you mentioned it already. There was an 24 email that came up the day before, from the 25 Marshals, on August 8th, in the afternoon, that EFTA00112012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 stated that he was being transferred - Reyes 2 was being transferred - to another facility. 3 He wasn't going to court. So, that morning, he 4 would, he wasn't going to court. He was 5 actually transferred out to another facility. 6 MS. : Okay. Okay. So -- 7 MR. : Now, if an email like that 8 came out, whose responsibility would it have 9 been to make those notifications up, hey, 10 listen, Reyes is now gone? 11 MS. : I mean, everybody reviews 12 that. I mean, the captain's review that log. 13 The warden. The executive staff. I mean, I 14 guess they would all see that. 15 MR. : Would psychology have the 16 court production list? 17 MS. : I don't always review the 18 court production list. No. 19 MR. : Yeah. No. You weren't 20 even there. 21 MS. : No. Yeah. 22 MR. : I'm just saying -- 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : -- like, on, like, on the 25 9th, I guess there would have been a court EFTA00112013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 production list that would have said Reyes, 2 WAB, With All Belongings. 3 MS. : Right. I mean, I don't have 4 access to that. Some of my staff have that 5 correctional services box. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MS. : And they do review it, 8 sometimes. But I'm not so sure we reviewed it, 9 anybody in my department. 10 MR. : Yeah. And again, I know 11 you weren't even -- 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- there, but so, should 14 have someone reviewed that? 15 MS. : That's not something that we 16 did on a regular basis. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : You know, we - custodial wise 19 - we don't manage hands-on like that. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MS. : As much. Like, we're not 22 looking all the time. I think now, since this 23 event happened, we might become more involved 24 with that. And review those things. Like, 25 when I get the Marshal's list, I was, I look to EFTA00112014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 make sure they don't have any histories of 2 things, or there is a no Marshal's notices. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MS. : More so than ever now, 5 because, you know, we are hyper alert. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : But as psychologists, that is 8 not something that is our job to review, and 9 then compare it to the SHU list, and make sure 10 everybody -- 11 MR. : Absolutely. 12 MS. -- is cell, you know, that is 13 not something we do. 14 MR. : So, when Reyes was listed 15 as WAB, and was removed from the institution on 16 the count numbers and everything 17 MS. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- should someone have 19 notified psychology? Now, this isn't Epstein. 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : This is his cellmate. 22 MS. : Right. 23 MR. : Reyes. 24 MS. : I don't know so much as 25 notified us, but at least made - or I would EFTA00112015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 think - someone would make arrangements to say, 2 well, this guy is coming out, we've got to get 3 someone in with Epstein. There would be no 4 need to call psychology. Unless Epstein was 5 demonstrating any psychological issues, because 6 we were -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : -- following him as needed, 9 and during our weekly rounds, anyway. So, if 10 he displayed, if he didn't display any mental 11 health problems, they probably wouldn't just 12 call us. 13 MR. : So, were there any 14 problems, as you see them, that no one notified 15 anyone in your department that Reyes was gone? 16 MS. : Well, the only problem is, if 17 they had planned on housing Epstein alone, and 18 not replacing Reyes, then we should have been 19 consulted, and spoken to about, do we think 20 that is a good idea? 21 MR. : Right. 22 MS. : So, that is 23 MR. : But -. 24 MS. : -- but that whole - not -- 25 MR. : But that was never EFTA00112016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 changed -- 2 MS. not likely -- 3 MR. so, he was supposed to 4 be housed with another cellmate -- 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : -- so, the fact that his 7 cellmate was gone, and he is supposed to be 8 housed with a cellmate, should have they -? 9 Should someone have contacted psychology to let 10 you know this cellmate is gone, we need to get 11 another cellmate in there? Is that something 12 that you should be a part of, or is that 13 something that was just custody? 14 MS. : That is mainly custody. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : That is mainly custody. Now, 17 things are a little different. I mean, again, 18 things are put into place. That may not have 19 been in place before. Things we may not have 20 been as involved with. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MS. : We have become more involved 23 with. Because of lessons learned. So, now, 24 when they house anybody alone, they let us 25 know, do you recommend this? Like I was EFTA00112017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 telling you, there is a sheet. Do you 2 recommend this? And we always say no. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MS. : I tell my staff, never 5 recommend a single cell. Like, if we think 6 someone is going to be single celled, we are 7 notified. Oh, this person is going to be -. 8 Dr. , come sign this, this form. But 9 before, we didn't do that. Okay, when Epstein 10 was there, we did not do that. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : If they had a plan to put him 13 by himself, we would have been notified. The 14 fact his cellmate was leaving, we wouldn't have 15 been notified, unless the intention was not to 16 replace him with somebody else. Because the 17 intention was always to keep him in the SHU 18 with a cellmate. 19 MR. : Now -- 20 MS. : I think custody's intention 21 were, too. 22 MR. : -- as far as people -- 23 MS. : It should have been. 24 MR. : -- that worked in the SHU 25 staff -- EFTA00112018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- or, for instance, 3 anybody in custody, do you think there is ever 4 an excuse, especially in this specific instance 5 with Epstein, that for people to say, we didn't 6 know he was supposed to have a cellmate. Is 7 that - do you believe that that is an excuse? 8 Or a reason, I should say. Not an excuse. And 9 this is not, I'm not talking about psychology 10 now. 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : What I'm talking about is 13 custody or 14 MS. : No. I know what you are 15 saying. I mean, it comes from management and 16 it goes down. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MS. : You see what I'm saying? So, 19 as far as I knew, the lieutenant up there, as 20 far as what he had shared with me, is that he 21 let the officerLs know. And that there was a 22 sign up there, from what I understand, on their 23 desk, that said he had to have a cellmate. 24 Okay? 25 MR. : Now, did you ever see a EFTA00112019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 sign? 2 MS. : I did not see that sign, 3 because I don't go behind that desk. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MS. : When I go. So 6 MR. : Because we knew that 7 there was a sign stating that they had to do 8 rounds on Epstein. It was a big orange sign. 9 But -- 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- we have never come 12 across signs saying that he had to have a 13 cellmate. Aside from the very first day -- 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : I think -- 16 MS. : Right. 17 MR. : -- that he was actually 18 housed with Reyes. 19 MS. : Right. But I mean, that is 20 something that is monitored by the SHU 21 lieutenant, and the operations lieutenant. 22 They were aware because the captain was aware, 23 and sits in executive staff. 24 MR. : Sure. 25 MS. : And the captain is under the EFTA00112020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 warden, and the warden would have wanted him to 2 have a cellmate. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. : A 100 percent. 5 MR. : Absolutely. 6 MS. : And supported our 7 recommendation for him to have a cellmate. So, 8 where the ball was dropped, I'm not 100 percent 9 sure. But I know executive staff were aware, 10 and I know that was a strong recommendation on 11 our part. Whether the officer's, whether it 12 went down the chain, that, I will not know 13 because I am not in custody. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MS. : How -- 16 MR. : But didn't you say -- 17 MS. how they advised them, you 18 know, the morning of their shift, this is what 19 you need to do. I don't know. 20 MR. : Isn't it something, 21 though, that you guys discuss, or psychology 22 discusses during training, saying that, hey -- 23 MS. : Well, yeah. 24 MR. : -- inmates that are at 25 risk for suicide need to have, if they are EFTA00112021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 coming off -- 2 MS. : Oh, absolutely. 3 MR. : -- suicide observation. 4 So, that is where I mean -- 5 MS. : That is where -- 6 MR. : -- by, like -- 7 MS. : -- like, the yearly training. 8 I mean, you would think, you know, with the 9 yearly training, with the annual training, with 10 the SHU, there is also a SHU training, a 11 quarterly training that I teach suicide 12 prevention. So, I teach suicide prevention 13 quarterly, to SHU staff. Where I have a slide 14 show that talks about the cellmate, and the 15 need for the cellmate. So -- 16 MR. : What about during their 17 annual refresher training? Is it also 18 discussed? 19 MS. : Yeah. Also. Yes. So -- 20 MR. : So -. 21 MS. : -- it's quarterly and annual. 22 MR. : And you say that same 23 thing during the annual training? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. So, not only are EFTA00112022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 the SHU staff getting it in their quarterly 2 training, but every staff is getting it in the 3 annual training. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : Everybody. 7 MR. : So, that is what I mean 8 by, is there ever an excuse, saying that we 9 didn't think he needed one? If they receive 10 this training, shouldn't have they known 11 MS. : Right. And also, I don't 12 know, I mean, he was a high-profile inmate. I 13 think everybody was aware of that. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : So -- 16 MR. : So, do you -- 17 MS. if he didn't have a 18 cellmate, they would know, even if they thought 19 he wasn't supposed to, they would know that he, 20 they should be rounding every half an hour, and 21 checking on, particularly a high-profile 22 inmate. 23 MR. : Now, does -- 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- every single staff EFTA00112023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 member of MCC, regardless if custody or not, do 2 they take that annual refresher training? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : So, R&D -- 5 MS. : They are required. 6 MR. : -- you know -- 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : They are required. 10 MR. : Okay. Perfect. 11 MR. : Okay. "Dr. never 12 suggested a cell room with a camera for 13 Epstein, because she wanted him to have a 14 cellmate." 15 MS. : I don't make those decisions, 16 as far as who goes on Ten South. Ten South is 17 a high security unit where we house many of the 18 SAMs inmates. I don't know if you are familiar 19 with the SAMs, but they are in Special 20 Administrative Measures. On occasion, we have 21 had high profile inmates, but that is at the 22 discretion of the warden. Not psychology. 23 Whether he wants to house a high-profile inmate 24 up there. We had Bernard Mayta (Phonetic Sp. 25 *01:30:19) up there. We had El Chapo (Phonetic EFTA00112024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 Sp. *01:30:20) up there. We had the Russian 2 arms dealer up there for a while. So, we have 3 had people there. But the warden - and I don't 4 know why, because I was not in those meetings - 5 decided that he was not going to place him in 6 Ten South. So, if you are not going to be in 7 Ten South, you are going to have a cellmate. 8 You know, as far as I am concerned. But I did 9 not -. I was not -. It was not up to me 10 whether he be placed on Ten South and a camera. 11 MR. : Was that ever -- 12 MS. : My recommendations were not 13 sought. 14 MR. : -- yeah. I was going to 15 say, was it ever 16 MS. : No. 17 MR. : -- even discussed with 18 you? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : It was told. It wasn't 22 discussed. 23 MR. : What was told? I'm 24 sorry. 25 MS. : That he was not going on Ten EFTA00112025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 South. 2 MR. : But that's what I mean. 3 Did Ten South even come up in discussion? 4 MS. : Just that he wasn't going to 5 be housed there. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : That the warden had decided. 8 I was informed by legal. And I said, oh -- 9 MR. : And when were you 10 informed that? 11 MS. : Earlier -- 12 MR. : Was that before? 13 MS. : -- earlier in his 14 incarceration. 15 MR. : Okay. So, while he was 16 alive? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. So, at the end -- 19 MS. : Yeah. Earlier in his 20 incarceration, I received a phone call that he 21 wasn't going to be housed in Ten South, that it 22 was decided, by the warden, that he wasn't 23 going to put him up there. So, when I was 24 being told that, knowing if he was going to be 25 on Nine South, then I would say certainly EFTA00112026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 suggest a cellmate. But I would have had no 2 problem him being on a camera in Ten South. 3 MR. : Would you have a 4 preference? From Ten South or Nine South? 5 MS. : If I was asked, I would have 6 preferred, I would have said Ten South because 7 I had been there for so long, and had seen so 8 many high-profile inmates up there, and being 9 on a camera 24/7. 10 MR. : So, you said psychology 11 always recommends a cellmate, but in this 12 instance, you would actually recommend him 13 being housed alone with a camera on him? 14 MS. : I think having a cellmate is 15 a good thing, but when somebody is this high- 16 profile on other levels, in retrospect, it 17 would have probably been not a bad idea. 18 MR. : So, in retrospect, and 19 obviously, we can all Monday morning 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : -- quarterback. 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : And unfortunately -- 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : -- that is what we are EFTA00112027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 doing. 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : But, like -- 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : -- at the time, do you 6 believe that you would have thought that Ten 7 South would have been more appropriate over 8 Nine South? 9 MS. : I don't really want to say 10 because -- 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MS. : I don't make those 13 decisions. 14 MR. : No. 15 MS. : I mean -- 16 MR. : But you weren't 17 consulted? They -- 18 MS. : I wasn't consulted. 19 MR. : -- no one told you. 20 MS. : I was told. So, once that 21 happened, then of course, I was going to 22 suggest he have a cellmate. 23 MR. : Okay. But it was the 24 warden's call, as far as you know? 25 MS. : As far as I know. That's what EFTA00112028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 I was told by legal. Which was the warden has 2 decided he will not be on Ten South. They are 3 going to house him on Nine South with 4 Tartaglione. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Let me finish that -- 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. -- (Indiscernible *01:33:20). 9 That's the last paragraph. "Rooms with cameras 10 aren't always perfect due to the guard having 11 to maintain a constant eye on the camera 12 screen. She noted she has never gone to 13 attorney conference for any other patients or 14 inmates. She believes MCC psychological 15 services did all they could for Epstein. And 16 ultimately, the lack of a cellmate, and under 17 staffing contributed to his death. Three 18 suicide risk assessments were completed on 19 Epstein, which is unusual. One of those was 20 completed due to a judge's order." Is it 21 normal for a judge to request a psychological - 22 23 MS. : It is not uncommon, 24 especially when the judge knew he had been on 25 watch before. EFTA00112029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MS. : So, I think, I don't think he 3 was ordered the first time, to be placed on 4 watch. I think it -. I don't remember which 5 time it was that the judge ordered it. But 6 judges will, if there is, if they have ever 7 been on suicide watch in the past, when they 8 leave a court proceeding. If it was the time 9 that he was denied the bail, I don't know which 10 was the time that the judge ordered it. 11 MR. : So, your -. 12 MR. : Would your notes say when 13 it was? 14 MS. : Possibly. Possibly. 15 MR. : Possibly. 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : So, you don't think it 18 was the first time, though? 19 MS. : I thought the first time I 20 did it precautionary. I don't know if it had 21 the judge's order. 22 MR. : Now, when you say there 23 are three risk - suicide risk assessments were 24 included, completed on Epstein. 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00112030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 MR. : Or Epstein. When he 2 first came on, when he, on July 23rd, what was 3 the third? 4 MS. : I think that is when he came 5 back and was denied the bail. 6 MR. : And do you think that was 7 probably the one that the judge -? Because 8 obviously, you do it when they come on, right? 9 And then, you do it if they try to attempt 10 suicide. 11 MS. : Or maybe the judge -. I 12 don't know if it was the first time. Maybe it 13 was the first time. Because I think the second 14 time was Dr. Which I really 15 complimented her on. I think she did it out of 16 precaution, because of what happened in court. 17 MR. : Okay. And that was -- 18 MS. : I think she did it on her own 19 instinct. Not because she was told to. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Wait. I have an event that 22 took place on August -- 23 MS. : Okay. 24 MR. : -- August 1st. It looks like 25 the correctional systems received a form from EFTA00112031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 the U.S. Marshal Service, the previous day 2 stating that Epstein had reported suicidal 3 tendencies. I guess he went to court. And he 4 reported suicidal tendencies. So, the Marshal 5 Service reported that to correctional systems, 6 and correctional systems notified that to 7 psychological observations. Psychs. 8 MS. : That was August 1st. 9 MR. : Do you believe that might be 10 the third time? 11 MR. : That would have been, 12 like, the day after he came off of -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- psych observation. 15 MS. : Right. And they always put 16 suicidal tendencies on every single one of 17 them. So, I am thinking, because he was just 18 coming off watch, he might have said, I was on 19 watch. 20 MR. : All right. So, that is - 21 22 MS. : But I don't -. 23 MR. : -- you think the Marshals 24 do this frequently? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00112032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : This isn't -- 2 MS. : They all say -- 3 MR. : -- that wasn't 4 MS. suicidal tendencies. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : And there, it's, they all say 7 the same thing. 8 MR. : All right. So, that 9 wasn't abnormal that they wrote that on August 10 1st? 11 MS. : Not if he had recently been 12 taken off of watch, and they were aware of 13 that. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : But you don't know what 17 the third instance was, with -? Because we 18 have, again -- 19 MS. : One was when he first came 20 into jail. 21 MR. : -- right. 22 MS. : Remember, we did, we had him 23 on -- 24 MR. : Yup. 25 MS. and he was mad. The EFTA00112033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 second time, I believe was when, maybe when the 2 Marshals -. I don't know. I don't know. 3 MR. : So, we know the two. 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : I'm just trying to 6 MS. : The third one -- 7 MR. to figure -. 8 MS. -- was when he had, when he 9 actually had the -- 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, no 11 MS. : -- Marshals -- 12 MR. : I know. They are my 13 two that I know. Is when he first came on, 14 July 23rd. 15 MS. : And I think the other one was 16 when he came back from court. 17 MR. : On the August 1st? 18 MS. : Yeah. I think so. I have to 19 look. It might be. I have to look at my 20 notes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : But those were the three 23 times. 24 MR. : Yeah. No. Because in 25 your report, it kind of - because obviously, it EFTA00112034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 was probably taking so long - it kind of jumps 2 really quickly from July 30th to basically the 3 end. 4 MS. : Okay. 5 MR. : So, that was just -. So, 6 I was wondering -- 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. if we were missing 9 something there, and that sounds like maybe 10 that is what we were missing. 11 MS. : Okay. If you wanted me to 12 look at my notes, I could do that. 13 MR. : This. Do you know? Because 14 I think -- 15 MR. : I'll just -- 16 MR. that will help you. 17 MR. -: real quickly cover 18 this with you. I think we already did. This 19 was the 302 with 20 Who is that? 21 MS. : She is the forensic 22 psychologist that removed him from watch the 23 first time, and stepped him down to psych ops. 24 MR. Okay. So, in part of her 25 302, we're just going to cover this quickly. EFTA00112035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 MS. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Just because we're 3 running out of time. It says, " 4 stated psychological observation allowed 5 Epstein to possess hygiene products, two 6 novels, to attend his legal visits, and to 7 shower." And as we already stated, he was 8 authorized legal visits while he was on 9 observation. 10 MS. : Okay. All right. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MS. : So, she did those 13 authorizations. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : After she took him off. 16 MR. : Okay. So, and then, it 17 says, and that part says, " stated she 18 discussed the decision to step down Epstein 19 with Dr. and associate warden 20 ." Now, when she says, " stated 21 she discussed the decision to step down Epstein 22 with Dr. and associate warden 23 ," do you know which step down she is 24 talking about? Is she talking about watch toed 25 observation? That's what -- EFTA00112036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- okay. Rather than 3 observation to SHU? 4 MS. : Correct. 5 MR. : Okay. And with associate 6 warden , is that a normal thing 7 that she would discuss that decision? She 8 would discuss that with an associate warden? 9 Is that normal? 10 MS. : Yes. I mean, maybe 11 gave her a call. Maybe she gave 12 a call, just because he was who he was. 13 We don't do it with every single inmate. We 14 send out a notification to, like, all executive 15 staff. And every day, on who is on watch, he 16 was removed from watch. An average inmate, 17 maybe they wouldn't have had a discussion. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MS. : Maybe it was because it was 20 Epstein. 21 MR. : And this is where 22 MS. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- it goes into the -. 24 Do you have any knowledge that around this 25 time, executive staff, or anybody at the EFTA00112037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 institution, was contacted by either the 2 attorneys or the judge, saying he needs to be 3 taken off of suicide watch, and put to 4 psychological observation, so the attorney 5 visits may -? 6 MS. : We never got a call like 7 that. 8 MR. : No? Okay. 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And you don't know that 11 mentioned that to you guys? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Not that I know of. 15 MR. : Okay. It says, 16 stated both and 17 concurred with her determination regarding 18 Epstein. stated, `I made the 19 decision with the consent of and 20 ' Is that correct? 21 MS. : Right. I mean, she came and 22 discussed it with me. And gave me all of the 23 reasons she felt he was written to be stepped 24 down. 25 MR. : Great. EFTA00112038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 MR. : I have a few follow up 2 questions. 3 MR. : So, this is the very end. 4 MR. : This is the very end. 5 MR. : Sorry. 6 MS. : It's okay. 7 MR. : That's okay. 8 MR. : It's taking longer than 9 we expected. 10 MS. : It's okay. 11 MR. : When inmate Reyes was chosen 12 to be Epstein's cellmate after he was brought 13 back to the SHU, do you know who was involved 14 in that decision-making? 15 MS. : Executive staff, most likely. 16 Or correctional staff. Probably the captain. 17 The captain and the AW over programs. 18 MR. : And do you think that 19 everyone, in terms of captain, the lieutenants, 20 and even the SHU staff would have known who 21 Reyes was, that he was Epstein's cellmate? 22 MS. : I mean, I would hope that was 23 discussed. But again, I don't know if it was 24 discussed with them. But the captain should 25 have passed it onto the lieutenants, and the EFTA00112039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 lieutenants should have passed it to the staff. 2 MR. : And based on the 3 recommendation, as you mentioned, from your 4 office and also through the chain of command, 5 they should - everyone should have known that 6 Epstein needed a cellmate? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : And if everyone knew Epstein 9 needed a cellmate, they should have technically 10 also known that his cellmate was Reyes? 11 MS. : I would think so. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I would hope so. 14 MR. : And when they came up the, 15 came up with the name, with the list of names 16 to place as a cellmate for Epstein, did they 17 have other names also chosen? Or just Reyes? 18 MS. Hmm. That, I don't know. 19 MR. : Okay. You are not aware? 20 MS. : Because I didn't make those 21 decisions. 22 MR. : Do you know if there -- 23 MS. : At the time. 24 MR. : -- was a plan, if he was 25 to leave, someone else would go into his place? EFTA00112040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 MS. : I don't know that. 2 MR. : Okay. That was a custody 3 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : -- decision? 6 MS. : Determination. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Do know if he was prescribed 9 any medications? Epstein was prescribed any 10 medications? 11 MS. : I would, again, have to see 12 his chart. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : I don't -- 15 MR. : Not that -. 16 MS. : I don't remember. I don' - 17 think so. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : I mean, from psychiatry. 20 MR. : I want to show -- 21 MS. : I don't remember. 22 MR. -: -- we will jump into 23 that. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Just in a couple of EFTA00112041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 minutes. 2 MR. : I just had a quick question. 3 You mentioned that he told you the first time 4 that he had a bail hearing. 5 MS. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Do you recall him mentioning, 7 in your last meeting with him on August 8th, 8 that he was scheduled for another bail hearing? 9 MS. : I don't recall. 10 MR. : He didn't mention that? 11 Okay. 12 MS. : I don't recall. He may have. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : He may have. I know he was 15 trying to get several hearings, so it is very 16 possible he did. 17 MR. : So, what we have here is an 18 after-action review. It was conducted by the 19 Bureau of Prisons. 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : And I'm going through some of 22 the noted -. 23 MR. : Have you seen this? 24 MS. : Hmm-mm. 25 MR. : No. Okay. EFTA00112042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : Basically, do you know what 2 an after-action review is? 3 MS. : Yes. I do. 4 MR. : Okay. So, this was done by 5 the team that was sent down to do on running 6 Mr. Epstein's death. And maybe the -- 7 MR. : Immediately after their 8 death. 9 MR. : -- immediately after. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : There is a note. "On July 12 9th, 2019, at 12:35, health services completes 13 a history and physical for inmate Epstein. 14 This assessment was done in lieu of an intake 15 screening, which should have been conducted 16 within 24 hours of arrival." It looks like he 17 arrived on July 6th, but the intake screening 18 wasn't done for him. 19 MS. : That's medical. 20 MR. : That's medical. Okay. 21 MS. : We did it the next day. We 22 do them within 24 hours. 23 MR. : Okay. "On July 18th, 30-day 24 psychology reviews are conducted for the entire 25 SHU population. Inmate Epstein was not in the EFTA00112043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 SHU at the time due to an attorney visit. The 2 review was never conducted." 3 MS. : He was probably seen in 4 attorney conference, but it wasn't conducted if 5 he wasn't in the SHU at the time. 6 MR. : Should they have followed - 7 psychology - have followed up? 8 MS. : I would have to see my 9 records. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : To see if there was a reason, 12 or if we put in a note, subsequently. 13 MR. : Understood. And you said, 14 the notification by the U.S. Marshal Service on 15 August 1st, you said that would be routine, if 16 he came off of suicide watch or psychological 17 observation, went to court, and they saw tha-, 18 they would normally make a routine 19 notification? 20 MS. : They often do. Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : Unless they are not privy to 23 it. You know? But if they are, they would, to 24 cover everything. 25 MR. : But you don't know -- EFTA00112044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MS. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- anything specifically 3 he was doing on August 1st, that would have 4 caused them to make a note? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Now, I don't have these 8 documents in here, to show you, but it was 9 flagged that, "The psychology intake screening 10 contains errors in identifying details. Inmate 11 Epstein is referred to as a black inmate, and a 12 different inmate's name is used within the 13 report." 14 MS. : Yes. One of the 15 psychologists made an error. Perhaps. It was 16 a template-ish error. I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : To be honest, it was probably 19 a template error. She was probably writing it 20 quickly, and when she proofread it, she didn't 21 catch it. 22 MR. : Okay. "There -- 23 MS. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- there are errors within 25 the risk of sexual abusiveness report, such as EFTA00112045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 referencing an inaccurate program statement, 2 and noting a history of prior prison sexual 3 predation." 4 MS. : Okay. Again -- 5 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:44:50)? 6 MS. : -- again, that is a 7 checklist. It was probably a typo on the 8 checklist. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MS. : By the psychologist. It was 11 a seasoned psychologist. I don't read every 12 single note that goes into the record. The 13 only time I read every single note is when 14 somebody is a probationary psychologist, and 15 unlicensed. 16 MR. : And who was -- 17 MS. : Then I will -- 18 MR. : -- the psychologist? 19 MS. : -- the psychologist at the 20 time was Dr. 21 MR. -: . Okay. 22 MS. : And I just think they were 23 typos. Looking back and having a conversation 24 with her, they were typos, but she is a 25 seasoned psychologist, a forensic psychologist, EFTA00112046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 and I couldn't possibly read every note that 2 goes in the record. Or else I would never 3 sleep. But I read, you know, like I said, if 4 they are unlicensed, on probationary, then I 5 read all of the notes that go into the record. 6 MR. : So, it is not that 7 didn't do the intake properly. 8 It was just, it was a format that she probably 9 used. 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. Now -- 12 MS. : Definitely. 13 MR. : -- there is another incident, 14 "July 16th, 12:48 p.m., inmate Epstein is seen 15 by psychology in the presence of his attorneys, 16 while conducting a legal visit. This visit 17 recommended no follow up. This visit was at 18 the request of inmate Epstein, that was wholll. 19 inappropriate. Inmate Epstein attempted to 20 establish guidelines for communication, and 21 bring his attorneys into the fray regarding 22 mental health treatment be provided by the 23 institution. 24 It is not typical for the Bureau of 25 Prisons to provide psychological intervention EFTA00112047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 in the presence of others, nor is it 2 appropriate for an agency psychologist to meet 3 with the inmate attorneys." The summary they 4 put on there is, "On July 16th, 2019, a 5 psychologist met with inmate Epstein in the 6 presence of his attorneys. This visit was done 7 at the request of inmate Epstein, that appears 8 to have been the purpose of airing grievances 9 with conditions of confinement. 10 This is a highly abnormal event. It is 11 not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to 12 provide psychological intervention in the 13 presence of others, and agency psychologists 14 should not - should neither provide mental 15 health intervention in the presence of others, 16 nor engage legal representation regarding 17 institution operations or conditions of 18 confinement. 19 Although the specifics of what information 20 the psychologists are unknown, any items shared 21 could be viewed as an unauthorized release of 22 information, both regarding inmate Epstein's 23 mental health treatment, and institution 24 operational information." 25 MS. : Okay. EFTA00112048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : Can you elaborate -? 2 MR. : What is your response to 3 that, I guess? 4 MS. : I wasn't aware -- 5 MR. : Do you agree with it, or 6 -? 7 MS. -- if one of my 8 psychologists, or I went up one time, and I 9 think another one of my psychologists went up, 10 it was probably just to see that he was okay, 11 and that he didn't need anything from 12 psychology. So, the intention was to check on 13 him. It wasn't to breach any security, or it 14 wasn't to meet his demands, or anything like 15 that. It was probably because he did spend 16 eight hours up there, and it was more well 17 meaning that we just probably just wanted to 18 see if he had any needs from our department, at 19 that time. Or on that one occasion, he was up 20 there when that psychologist was conducting her 21 rounds in the suicide watch area, and he wasn't 22 there. And she went up there to check on his 23 mental status, to see if he was okay. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MS. : So -. EFTA00112049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : And who would have that 2 one been? 3 MS. : I think it was Dr. that 4 went up there on one occasion. And I think I 5 went up there on one occasion. That's when he 6 made that comment to me. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MS. : But -. 9 MR. : Now, so, what is your -- 10 MS. : I did not share 11 MR. : -- do you agree 12 MS. : -- anything with his 13 attorneys. He stepped out of the room. Like, 14 the attorneys were sitting at the table. And 15 then, there is the door, and he walked up 16 towards the door. And I just said, you know, 17 think when I went up there, you know, are you 18 okay? Have you been eating and sleeping okay? 19 I didn't discuss any intimate details of his 20 childhood, or anything like that. It was kind 21 of just, like, are you okay? 22 Do you have any thoughts of harming 23 yourself? Have you been eating and sleeping, 24 or do you have any concerns like that. And you 25 could see my notes, it would probably indicate EFTA00112050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 what I did ask him. It was well meaning. 2 certainly didn't engage. I don't know. I 3 doubt Dr. did, because she is very rigid. 4 And any discourse with his attorney about 5 anything. I think his attorneys may have made 6 a comment to me, but I think I ignored it. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : But yeah. 9 MR. : So, you -. 10 MS. : If that is what they are 11 referring to, you would have to re, you know, 12 show me the contacts, and the context. The 13 contacts, the actual site contacts that they 14 are referring to. 15 MR. : Yeah, they don't 16 MS. : Well. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- they don't list it on 19 there. 20 MR. : I mean, so - 21 MS. : I mean, those are the only -- 22 MR. : -- two -- 23 MS. : -- two times that we went up 24 there, and that was more well meaning, to check 25 on his mental status. EFTA00112051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. : Sure. 2 MS. : It was certainly -. 3 MR. : And not a discussion 4 MR. : So, do you -- 5 MR. : -- with the attorneys. 6 Sorry. 7 MR. : But as -- 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : -- this is the BOP's 10 findings. This isn't on ours. We are just 11 saying -- 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. do you agree with that 14 finding, or do you think that that is 15 inaccurate, the way that they have that? They 16 are saying that you should not have done that? 17 MS. : I would say it is 50/50. i 18 mean, now, in retrospect, if it could be 19 perceived that way, it is probably not the best 20 situation. However, circumstantially, this guy 21 was in the conference room from dawn until 22 dusk. And we felt a need to check on him, to 23 see if he was okay. So -- 24 MR. : What -. 25 MS. : I would say we just EFTA00112052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 probably weren't aware that it wasn't a good 2 thing to do. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : We meant it to be -- 5 MR. : Okay. So, and -- 6 MS. a good thing. 7 MR. : -- and this prior to his 8 first suicide attempt, it looks like, on, it 9 says July 16th. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : So, that was probably just to 13 check on him due to our concerns. 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MS. : In reading that, I probably 16 would not do that ever again. Because it is 17 perceived that way. But we weren't aware that 18 that wouldn't - that that was an unusual 19 circumstance. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MS. : It doesn't spring upon us 22 frequently. We don't have inmates that have 23 that kind of money to sit in there for nine 24 hours a day. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00112053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MS. : You know? So, that has never 3 happened before. 4 MR. : So, what, in retrospect, 5 I guess, what should have happened? Should 6 have you asked him to be excused, and seen him 7 a private room? 8 MS. : I guess we could have done 9 that, but that would have interfered with his, 10 and he is paying his attorneys. It is just, I 11 would have to probably consult on that further. 12 MR. : Has anyone -- 13 MS. : Because -. 14 MR. : -- spoken with you about 15 this? 16 MS. : No. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You just mentioned something. 19 You said it is highly unusual that somebody is 20 sitting in attorney conference for that long. 21 Is that not allowed for him? Was that not 22 allowed for any other inmates? Was he the only 23 inmate who was, that was allowed to? 24 MS. : I think he was the only 25 inmate that had that kind of money. EFTA00112054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. It's -. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : To pay an attorney for nine 4 hours. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : To sit in a conference room. 7 You know, usually, they last about an hour. 8 So, I had never seen that before in all my 9 years in the prisons. But it is not like you 10 can't do it. I guess if you have the money, 11 and the resources to have different attorneys 12 come, to cover your whole day -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : -- then -. 15 MR. : I just have one more topic, 16 and then it is done. 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, were you aware that Mr. 19 Epstein was allowed to make an unmonitored 20 phone call on the evening of August 9th? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : So, on August 9th, it looks 23 like he, his pack and PIN was provided to him, 24 but it was never set up. So, he requested a 25 phone call, and it looks like the unit manager EFTA00112055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 took him to the SHU, brought back from attorney 2 conference, and placed him in the shower. 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Plugged it into the legal 6 line. 7 MS. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : And he said he wanted to talk 9 to his mother. So, the unit manager dialed out 10 the number. A guy answered the phone. He 11 handed the phone, the phone over to Mr. 12 Epstein. 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And he left. So, Mr. Epstein 15 was allowed to make the phone call. It was not 16 monitored. And what do you think? Do you 17 think that should have ever been allowed? 18 MS. : That is never allowed. That 19 is not allowed. 20 MR. : Do you think that played any 21 part into what happened that night, being the 22 fact that he was allowed to make a phone call, 23 unmonitored, a phone call? Remember, he 24 mentioned that it was to his mother. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00112056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 MR. : But we learned that his 2 mother has been deceased for a while. 3 MR. : This isn't really for her 4 to answer. 5 MS. : That, I don't know. 6 MR. : So, as far as, this is 7 something that we skipped over in your 8 interview report, though. It says, "On August 9 8th, 2019, Dr. attended the SHU meeting. 10 She couldn't recall all who was there. But 11 noted," - so, this talks about that meeting, 12 and it said that, "Epstein had received his 13 pack number, which allows him to make phone 14 calls, and he asked for his books from 15 psychological observation." So, are you aware 16 that he actually did receive his pack number? 17 Pack and PIN number, so he could actually make 18 calls? 19 MS. : I probably was privy to it, 20 if it was mentioned in the SHU meeting. But 21 that wouldn't have any psychological meaning, 22 other than he could make the calls, and they 23 would bring the phone to his cell, which is 24 what they usually do, and he can make the phone 25 calls. EFTA00112057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : So, you don't recall if 2 he was actually provided a pack and PIN number 3 or not? 4 MS. : I don't recall. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : Because I don't set that up 7 or anything. It could have been mentioned in 8 the SHU meeting. But that doesn't directly 9 impact mental health services. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : So. 12 MR. : So, and you don't know if 13 it was actually - not only was he given a pack 14 and PIN number - but you don't know if it was 15 actually set up or not? 16 MS. : That, I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 18 MS. : And I don't know if it played 19 a role. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : You know, I don't know. 22 MR. : That is the last two. 23 MR. : Yeah. Go ahead. 24 MR. : Okay. So, do you think Mr. 25 Epstein took his own life? EFTA00112058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 MS. : Yes. I mean, it would be 2 highly unlikely that he didn't. I can say that 3 psychologists, the difficult thing is that we 4 are psychologists. We are not psychic. But 5 the events leading up to it, too, that period 6 of time, he appeared psychologically stable. 7 But the information that he received, according 8 to what I heard the night before, and all of 9 that information being unsealed, and him being 10 alone with his thoughts, and thinking that 11 maybe, perhaps he would have to spend the rest 12 of his life in jail, and that all of these 13 high-profile individuals information was going 14 to come out about them. 15 Could he have, at that moment, just felt 16 completely hopeless, and thought of ending his 17 life? Yes. That is very possible. You know, 18 that is very possible. Prior to me leaving, he 19 wasn't given any of this information, and he 20 had a lot of hope, he had a lot of resources. 21 Perhaps he thought, you know, maybe he could 22 cooperate, or get some kind of a deal. I don't 23 know what happened at that meeting. But having 24 been in the prison system as long as I have 25 been, and being a psychologist, sometimes when EFTA00112059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 people get really bad news, and they feel very 2 hopeless, and the opportunity is there. 3 They will take that opportunity. So, yes. 4 It would be highly improbable, you know, the 5 way our prison is set up, that someone could 6 have snuck up there and harmed him, in some 7 way. The way that the tiers are and 8 everything. So, I think the higher probability 9 is that he did kill himself. 10 MR. : That leads to my second 11 question. The last question. 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Do you have any reason to 14 believe that Epstein did not take his own life? 15 MS. : I have no reason to believe 16 he didn't. 17 MR. : Do you have any other follow 18 up questions? 19 MR. : No. Is there anything 20 that we missed, that we should know? 21 MS. : Not that I can think of. 22 Just that, you know, we -. No. Not really. 23 No. 24 MR. : Okay. Great. We can't 25 thank you enough. EFTA00112060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 MS. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So, again, it took longer 3 than we expected, but you were extremely 4 helpful. 5 MS. : Thank you. 6 MR. is the case agent, 7 so if you have any questions or anything -- 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- you can (Indioccrnible 10 *01:57:25)qo directly with 11 MS. : Thank you. 12 MR. : Thank you for taking your 13 time. 14 MS. : If there is anything else I 15 can do, or anything I can clarify, with regard 16 to the case, or if you want me to review some 17 notes, if anything wasn't clear, because like I 18 said, I probably, to be more specific, if I had 19 those notes, I would know when the Marshals 20 came in, because it is kind of a blur to me. 21 It has been a few years. It was probably the 22 most traumatic event in my entire career. 23 MR. : Oh, wow. Yeah. 24 MS. : You know? 25 MR. : Sorry to hear that. EFTA00112061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 MS. : So, yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. Well, thank you so 3 much for that. 4 MS. : Thank you. 5 MR. : If anything comes up, or you 6 have anything that you want to share, please, 7 reach out. 8 MS. : Yes. Thank you. 9 MR. : Okay. It is currently 10 11:18 a.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 11 This is Senior Special Agent 12 I am turning off the recorder. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 2 3 4 EFTA00112063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 7 8 Interview of 9 10 11 12 Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112064