EFTA00113283

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 : The recorder is on. My 1 name? To start, wain, I am 00]/OIC Senior 2 name is , and I am a senior 2 Special Agent . M-A-T-U-L-E- 3 special agent with the U.S. Department of 3 W-I-C-Z. 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 MR. : This is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 5 York Field Office, and these are my 5 D-A-N-I-E-L. And these are my 6 credentials. 6 credentials. 7 : Thank you. 7 : Thank you, sir. 8 : All right. And this 8 And can you say and spell 9 interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 9 your name for the record, and your position 10 emplo ee - is it ? 10 title? 11 . 11 : Okay. Senior officer 12 ? 12 atcialist. First name Last name 13 : Yes. 13 IIII. C-A-L-E. 14 , is being conducted 14 That's fine. We'll ask 15 as part of an official U.S. Department of 15 you more later. And how do you spell your 16 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 16 first name? 17 (DOJ/OIG) investigation. Today's date is 17 : K-I-M-A-N-A. 18 August Sth, 2021, and the time is 2:34 p.m. 18 Okay. Thank you, sir. 19 This interview is being conducted at the 19 This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into 20 Metropolitan Correctional Center, or the MCC, 20 the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the 21 located in New York, New York. Also present is 21 surrounding circumstances, and you are being 22 DOJ/OIG Special Agent . This 22 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 23 interview will be recorded by me, SSA 23 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 24 . Could everyone please identify 24 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 25 themselves for the record, and spell your last 25 : Yes. EFTA00113283 S 6 1 Thank you, sir. This is 1 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 2 a form that we give to our voluntary - or to 2 any kind has been used against me." So, you 3 our employees who are requested to provide 3 can take a look, if you'd like, at this form. 4 information on a voluntary basis. It says, 4 And if you agree with it and understand it, you 5 United States Department of Justice, Office of 5 can sign where it says employee signature, and 6 the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances 6 then print your name where it says employee's 7 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 7 name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) 8 a Voluntary Basis. "You are being asked to 8 if you'd like. 9 provide information as part of an investigation 9 : Okay. Okay. You said sign my 10 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 10 name ri ht here? 11 General. This investigation is being conducted 11 : Yeah. Where it says 12 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 12 employee signature. And then, you can just 13 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 13 print your name underneath, where it says -. 14 performance failure and security failure. This 14 Okay. 15 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 15 My full name? 16 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 16 MR. : Yes. 17 action will be taken against you if do not 17 • Yes, please. Thank you, 18 choose to answer our questions. Any statements 18 sir. Okay. And I am signing where it says 19 you furnish may be used as evidence in any 19 signature of Office of the Inspector General 20 future criminal proceedings, or agency 20 Special Agent, and I am rintin my name below. 21 disciplinary proceedings, or both." And 21 Again, this is . The date is 22 there's a waiver section. It says, "I 22 8/S/21, and the time is -- 23 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 23 MR. : 2:38. 24 above and I am willing to make a statement and 24 25 answer questions. No promises or threats have 25 MR. : 38. 7 8 1 -- :38 p.m. Place, at 1 Newark, New Jersey. 2 MCC, New York. Special Agent , can you 2 : Okay. And what is your 3 please siiiiiiithe witness? 3 date of birth? 4 MR. : This is Agent , signing 4 8 30/1975. 5 as the witness. 5 : And what is your SSN? 6 Did you understand that 6 : The last four or the whole 7 form? 7 thing? 8 : Yes. 8 The last four is fine. 9 : Okay. You understand 9 10 this is voluntary. You can choose to leave at 10 P And what is your current 11 any time. Thank you. Before star." I'd 11 cell hone number? 12 like to place you under oath. , could 12 13 you please raise your right hand? Do you swear 13 And what is your highest 14 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth 14 level of education? 15 durin this interview? 15 Hi h school. 16 : Yes. 16 : High school. And where 17 Thank you, sir. Please 17 did you o to high school? 18 let me know if you don't understand any 18 : Malcom X Shabazz. Newark, New 19 questions. I will repeat it or try to rephrase 19 Jersei 20 it. Okay? is our current home address? 20 : And when did you graduate • 21 21 high school? 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:26 22 1993. 23 Zip code is 23 : Thank you, sir. And what 24 Thank you, sir. And 24 did yiiiiiiiiior to working for the BOP? 25 that's in Newark? 25 : I used to work for private EFTA00113284 9 10 1 corrections, CCA. Corrections Corporation of 1 : I'm a senior officer 2 America. 2 specialist. 3 . Okay. Great. Now, do 3 And what does that 4 military service? 4 position entail? 5 . No, sir. 5 : It just means that, you know, 6 And how long have you 6 I've worked every post, and I've been on -. 7 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 7 Worked about every post, and I'm a little bit 8 February will be 20 years. 8 more trained than the people that's now getting 9 : Okay. Great. Do you 9 hired. 10 remember our entry on duty date? 10 Okay. So, and it's in 11 12 13 I=I February 10th of 2002. : Thank you, sir. And do 12 you recall when you graduated from BOP 11 13 the custody side of the house? : Yes. Okay. Great. What is 14 trainin around, like, the - even the year? 14 your iiiiiiiivel? 15 : I can't. I don't remember. 15 : My grade level is eight, step 16 Would it have been right 16 ten. 17 away, in 2002? 17 : Great. Thank you. And 18 : No. It was a little later. 18 are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 19 : But you've attended it? 19 Yes. 20 Yes. 20 : Was he housed within the 21 : And that is correctional 21 MCC in Jul and August of 2019? 22 officer training down at FLETC? 22 : I believe so, but I'm not too 23 Yes. 23 sure. Because E stein wasn't a big deal to me. 24 : Okay. Great. And what 24 : Okay. And what do you 25 is your current position with the BOP? 25 mean by that? 11 12 1 : Meaning that, he's just - he 1 Yes. 2 was somebody that was being processed through 2 -- as well? Perfect. And 3 the federal government for committing a crime. 3 they're the same duties and responsibilities 4 : Okay. What about after 4 that you just described? Basically, like, a 5 the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news 5 very knowled eable correctional officer? 6 attention and everything that had been placed 6 : Yes. Yes. About that. Yeah. 7 upon it, did you think it became a little bit 7 Okay. Did you have any 8 bigger of a deal then? 8 interactions or involvement with Epstein during 9 : I guess it was a big deal of 9 his stay at MCC? 10 how, you know, the job was treating them. You 10 No. 11 know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- 11 No. Did you even 12 profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad 12 communicate with him at all? 13 been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide 13 No. 14 watch. 14 : Did you see him at all? 15 : Okay. And you're saying 15 : I seen him once. I think he 16 that based upon the fact that he killed 16 was down on suicide watch. One time. 17 himself? 17 : Okay. And were you 18 : Yes. 18 workiiiiiiiiiicide watch? 19 : Okay. And we can get 19 No. I think I was activities, 20 into that more later. What was your position 20 maybe. So, I had to go through, sign the 21 at the MCC in July and August of 2019? 21 logbook, maybe. I don't -. I can't remember 22 : If I remember correctly, I was 22 what post, or what post I was on, or maybe I 23 internal number two. 23 was internal. You know, and, you know, we have 24 : Okay. I'm sorry. Were 24 a shortage of staff. So, I wear many different 25 you a senior officer specialist -- 25 titles during the day. EFTA00113285 13 14 1 : Sure. 1 the dail 2 : So, I can't really tell you how 2 : I was -. 3 I saw him that particular day, but I know I did 3 • -- receipt, and I'll try 4 see him. 4 to -. Here you go, and here is the daily 5 : Okay. So, when he was on 5 assignment roster for both Friday, August 9th, 6 suicide watch, you remember, you know, you have 6 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2019. I have 7 acted as the activities lieutenant, though, in 7 taken the liberty of just highlighting your 8 the past? 8 name next -- 9 : Yes. 9 Okay. 10 : Okay. Great. 10 -- position title. 11 : But that day, I can't remember 11 : Control one. And internal 12 what 12 number two. 13 : Sure. Do you happen to 13 So, on August 9th, you 14 remember if you worked at the MCC on August 9th 14 were control number one, and then, August -. 15 and 10th of 2019? The day leading up to and the 15 : No, now, which one is the day 16 day he was - the day of - finding him in his 16 of? 17 cell? 17 And so, we got the day 18 : Yeah. I believe so. The day 18 leadin' to it will be the 9th. 19 of? I was certainly here. The day before? I 19 • Okay. 20 can't remember. 20 And that's where it says 21 : Okay. Great. Do you 21 that 22 know what you were doing that day? And I have a 22 Control one. Yes. 23 duty a ent - I have a -- 23 -- you were control one. 24 : Uh-huh. 24 Okay. And that says that you were control one 25 : I'm going to give you 25 from 4:00 p.m. until midnight? 15 16 1 : Yes. 1 the eves and the ears for the lieutenant. 2 : Okay. Great. And then, 2 Okay. 3 the following day, it says Saturday, August 3 : We reviewed the camera, and we 4 10th, 2019. You were internal number two, on 4 watched the cameras a little bit. We popped 5 overtime, from midnight through 8:00 a.m.? 5 doors. We answered phones. If anybody is 6 : Yes. 6 calling, asking about their loved ones that are 7 : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 7 incarcerated here. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in case 8 So, you're in the control 9 we ask ou about anything -- 9 center, correct? 10 : Okay. 10 Yes. 11 : -- with regard to, you 11 : Are you one of two 12 know, either you or other people that were 12 officers in the control center? 13 working on that, on that day. So, as - let's 13 Yes. 14 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 14 : All right. So, what is 15 state that you were control number one. What 15 the difference between what the control number 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? 16 one officer does, and the control number two 17 : Okay. For control number one? 17 officer does? 18 : Control number one. 18 : Okay. Control number one 19 Correct. 19 officer. Control number one officer actually, 20 : The duties entail -. 20 you know, popped the doors, do all the 21 : And specifically, we're 21 paperwork. 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to 22 : Okay. So, when you say 23 midniiiiiiiiit. 23 paperwork, like, if they're counts, you fill 24 : Okay. 4:00 p.m. to midnight 24 out tiiiiiiiiwork? 25 shift. Duties entail of just, you know, being 25 : Not the counts. That's the CNA EFTA00113286 17 18 1 officer, or the internal unit two officer. The 1 actually would be the person that's supposed to 2 control officer, the control officers handles 2 be doin the counts? 3 the door, the popping of the doors, listening 3 : Yes. 4 to the radios. 4 : All right. And what 5 Answer it. Okay. And 5 about for, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, for 6 so, and who actually is supposed to take care 6 internal number two, from midnight through 8:00 7 of the counts, then, during that time? 7 a.m. What were your duties and 8 The counts are CNA. Or 8 responsibilities? 9 now/internal two. 9 : Yes. That was me, internal 10 Okay. And what does CNA 10 number two. My duties was to generate the 11 stand for? 11 count. Generate the PPE1. Make any moves, if 12 : CNA is - what is that - Counts. 12 any inmates move from one unit to the next 13 Oh, it's been a long time since I had to, like, 13 unit. Answer the hones. 14 pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is 14 : So, when you say inmates 15 15 move from one unit to the next unit, do you 16 Is that somebody that's 16 mean, like keying them into different -- 17 listed on this sheet? 17 : Yes. Keying them into -- 18 : -- internal number two. 18 -- so, keying them out of 19 : Oh, so, CNA is internal 19 one, and ke ing -- 20 number two? 20 -- key them out of a -- 21 Yes. 21 -- into the other. 22 : Okay. So, in this case, 22 -- out of a housing unit, and 23 it's 23 movin them to the next. 24 : Yes. 24 : Okay. So, not the actual 25 : All right. So, he 25 physical movement -- 19 20 1 Yes. 1 Yes. 2 -- you're talking about 2 -- housing unit? Okay. 3 electronically. 3 So, that's what you were doing in that specific 4 Electronical. 4 date? 5 : Okay. In the BOP 5 Yes. 6 databases. 6 : Or is that always the 7 Yes. 7 internal number two goes and counts Nine North? 8 : Perfect. So -. 8 : Yeah. That's how they have 9 : And also, my duties are to 9 internal number two set up for their post. 10 actually go upstairs and do the count. To help 10 So, always counting the 11 out internal with the count. 11 same housing units, every -- 12 : Okay. So, not only are 12 : Yeah. 13 you taking the count and filling out the 13 -- every shift? 14 paperwork, but you're actually physically going 14 : Basically, we help out 15 somewhere? 15 internal. If you was working as the internal 16 Yes. 16 officer, and you needed my help to, you know, 17 : And where are you going 17 because Jou know that I'm supposed to help you. 18 to? 18 Okay. 19 : I have to go - at that time - I 19 : You would say, hey, IIII, I 20 had to count Nine North, and unit two. 20 need you to count nine and two, or just say, I 21 Okay. And then, so, I 21 need you to count both sides of 11. 22 know Nine South. What is Nine North? 22 Gotcha. Okay. 23 Nine North is a housing unit. 23 I'm - 24 : Okay. So, just a normal, 24 So, you're basically the 25 regular general pop housing -- 25 EFTA00113287 21 22 1 Yeah. 1 : During your shift. 2 -- control number - I 2 : Yes. 3 mean, is it control number one, that we're 3 : And then, you're saying 4 talking about? 4 that on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, when you 5 Control number two. 5 were internal number two, that's when you would 6 Control number one is 6 have left your shift, and helped with the 7 kind of, like, in charge -- 7 counts? 8 : Yeah. 8 : Yes. 9 -- and then, control 9 : Okay. But as their 10 number two -- 10 internal number two, you were actually taking 11 : Control number one -- 11 the counts and writing in the documentation? 12 -- is the assistant. 12 : I'm taking count, and also, I'm 13 -- do not leave control. 13 going upstairs to actually physically do the 14 : Control number one stays 14 count. 15 in there the whole time? 15 : Okay. 16 Yes. 16 : In two houses. 17 : Okay. Control number two 17 : All right. But as 18 actually is the one that -. Okay. So, the 18 control number one, the day before, you weren't 19 person who is control number -. Control number 19 actually supposed to be involved with the 20 one doesn't leave? 20 counts? 21 Yes. 21 : No. The only thing I do is sit 22 : All right. So, you 22 there. Once you complete the count and you 23 wouldn't have left then on Friday, August 9th. 23 tell me, and we have a good verbal, I announce 24 You would have been in there the whole time? 24 it on the radio, I log it in the logbook, and 25 : Yeah. 25 then, you say, clear count. I announce it on 23 24 1 the radio. Write it in the logbook. Clear 1 : Ithink he went home at 10:00. 2 count. 2 : At 10:00? 3 : Okay. And on these dates 3 : And I -- 4 - and I'm sorry to pop back and forth - but on 4 : So then -. 5 Friday, August 9th, 2019, when you were control 5 -- probably was in there by 6 number one, who would you be primarily be 6 myself for a few, but I can't remember. I 7 workin iat i? 7 can't remember. 8 : At that time, shortage of 8 No, that makes a lot of 9 staff, ou could have any -. 9 sense. We're going to go over the actual 10 : I mean, on this specific 10 counts because you actually took the count at 11 11 10:00 '.m. 12 No. 12 : Okay. 13 -- date. 13 : So, that makes sense. 14 : You have a different partner 14 So, was he supposed to go home, or he had to go 15 almost every lain this specific be 15 home -? 16 working with , if he was in - 16 Yes. He's supposed to go home. 17 if he was internal number two. 17 : Okay. So, at the 10:00 18 : Okay. So, the two of you 18 p.m. count, then, as control number one, you 19 would be working together? 19 actuaiiiiiiii it -? 20 : Yeah. But I really don't think 20 : Yeah. Like, when you're in 21 I was with that day. I think it was 21 there by yourself, and there's a shortage of 22 Marrugo, and then, he went home, because 22 staff you of to lay both roles. 23 Marrugo goes home at 10:00. Because I was 23 : Okay. At 10:00 p.m., 24 workin with Marru o, and then he went home. 24 though, was there supposed to be two people in 25 : When did he go home? 25 there? EFTA00113288 25 26 1 : Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. 1 time control goes in. At this time, when he 2 : So, that's what I mean. 2 was on eights, when he was on eights, every 3 So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only 3 shift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. My fault. 4 until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the 4 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 to 12:00, and then, 12:00 to 5 count happens after the person - control number 5 8:00. When CNA comes in for evening watch, 6 two - leaves. Right? 6 evening watch is 4:00 to 12:00. 4:00 to 12:00. 7 : Yes. So, control number two is 7 When evening watch comes in, control one comes 8 supposed to print up everything, and since he's 8 in, control two comes in. Now, somebody, you 9 off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork 9 know, had a big idea and said, hey, you need 10 that he enerated and do the count for him. 10 to, you know, we need to stop generating money. 11 : Okay. So, control number 11 We need to modify the hours. So, we don't need 12 one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. 12 two people in control. So, they modified the 13 count. Correct? 13 hours, and made control number two. 14 : Control number one is not 14 Yeah. 15 responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if 15 : From that time. 16 you are in there by yourself, now that's your 16 : Right. So, at this 17 second 'ob. 17 18 : Okay. So, who is 18 : So, I think this is, what, 2:00 E- 19 responsible for it, then? 19 20 : Whoever is supposed to be 20 So -- 21 posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It's two 21 : -- 2:00 to 10:00 22 different. Like, see here, we have a lot of 22 -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- 23 job titles that kind of, like, they took from 23 : - now? 24 us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is 24 -- Correct. So, that's 25 supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever 25 where I'm saying, it's, like, if they're 27 28 1 leavin at 10:00 -- 1 No. 2 : Yes. 2 -- it would have just 3 -- and the count is being' 3 been you? Okay. All right. Because I was 4 conducted at 10:00, and they usually get, you 4 getting confused. All right. And then, as far 5 know, they leave usually a couple minutes 5 as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number 6 before, too. It sounds like, at this time, on 6 two, you would have also taken the count. 7 August 9th -- 7 Correct? 8 : Now, I -- 8 Yes. 9 : -- you would have been 9 : The 12:00 a.m., 3:00 10 the one -- 10 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 11 : -- took the count. 11 : Yes. If they filled that post, 12 : -- who took the count. 12 like, my name is there, so, they filled that 13 : Yes. 13 post with overtime. So, that was me. 14 : So, that's where I just 14 Okay. 15 want to make sure we're not getting -. Because 15 : So, I did that post. I worked 16 I'm getting confused with all this. 16 that post. I generated the El. I went 17 : Yeah. 17 upstairs, conducted the count on the two 18 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 18 housing units that I have to count, and then, I 19 as control number one, you would have taken the 19 would go back downstairs, and finish the count 20 count? 20 on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me 21 : Yes. If my name is on that 21 up, saying, hey, this is EN with the count of 22 form, I took the count. 22 14, and I would say, good count, bad count, and 23 : Right. And no one else 23 then, cross it off the on paperwork. 24 would have been in there with you to take that 24 : Okay. And then, we 25 count -- 25 talked about who you worked with on August 9th. EFTA00113289 29 30 1 You said that, although this says Marrugo, you 1 -- with him. But you're 2 think it's somebody else? 2 also takin the counts? 3 : I think it's somebody else. I 3 • Yes. 4 can't remember. 4 : Okay. Thank you. And 5 : Sure. 5 who did you report to on these days? Are you 6 : And then -- 6 always re rting to the Ops Lieutenant? 7 : It's been a while. 7 : Yes. 8 -- on August 10th, 2019, 8 : Okay. So then, so on 9 it says you were internal two, internal one was 9 Au ust 9th ou would have been reporting to 10 - does that say Dupre? 10 , I think, both times, because 11 : Yeah. He don't come in -. Oh, 11 Cannata, although he's listed, he was relieved 12 well. He's internal. So, that's the person 12 at 10:00 p.m. back then. They were working two 13 that I'm hel in to conduct the count with. 13 hours before the start of their shift. So, 14 : Okay. So, he is doing 14 started at 10:00 .m. So you 15 all -- 15 would have been reporting to 16 He's -. 16 then, for both shifts? 17 -- he's actually 17 : Yes. 18 physicall oing to the different units? 18 : Okay. 19 : Yes. 19 : Yeah. I don't - you know - I 20 Collecting count slips, 20 don't recall (Indiscernible *00:21:20). The 21 and thins like that. 21 only thing I could try to recall was what I was 22 Yes. 22 doing because that's all I could do. 23 : And you're assisting, you 23 : Well, per these 24 said -- 24 documents, at least, it shows 25 Yes. 25 would have -- 31 32 1 Yeah. It shows her name. 1 Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for 2 -- been the person you're 2 the interview were FBI Special Agent 3 reporting to. Okay. Were you previously 3 FBI Task Force Officer, TFO 4 interviewed under this investigation? 4 Office of the Inspector General Special 5 : Yes. You know, the first time. 5 Agent , and Assistant United States 6 Yeah. 6 Attorney AUSA MI advised 7 Were you interviewed more 7 that the interview was in lieu of an appearance 8 than once? 8 before the federal rand jury, and is 9 No. lust once. 9 voluntary. SA provided with an OIG 10 : Okay. I'm going to just 10 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 11 review the report that was written in regard to 11 to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis 12 that interview. I just want you to - I'm not 12 form, which IIII signed, and was witnessed by 13 going to provide it to you because it's written 13 SA's and Moore. SA retained the 14 on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was 14 original, and a copy is attached in the 1A 15 present. So, it's our information to have. 15 section of this report. After being advised of 16 So, I'll read it to you. And just, if you can 16 the identity of the interviewing investigators, 17 just stop me if there is anything in there that 17 and the nature of the interview, MI provided 18 is not accurate. 18 the following information. I. worked for 19 Okay. 19 Corrections Corporation of America from 20 : Okay? So, it says that, 20 approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started 21 , Senior Officer Specialist at the 21 workin for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 22 Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional 22 2019, was assigned internal two on the 23 Center," and it says, yada, yada, yada. "Was 23 morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 24 interviewed at the United States Attorney's 24 This post helps with the count, getting 25 Office, Southern District of New York, 1 St. 25 paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00113290 33 34 1 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of 1 : Yes. 2 the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not 2 : Does that sound accurate. 3 require help for the count because there are 3 : Yeah. It sounds accurate. 4 officers stationed in those units that do the 4 : All right. Because the 5 counts. Duringthe morning watch shift of 5 person said -. I thought she said that 6 August 10th, prepared the coatJa getting 6 she wasn't taking the calls. 7 the paperwork together. Officer IIIIII, as the 7 : Okay. 8 control officer, took officer's phone calls, 8 MR. : She wasn't taking the calls? 9 receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 9 : Oh, yeah. 10 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an 10 : So -. 11 officer calls into control with the count for a 11 : We help each other. 12 particular unit, control advises if the number 12 : Okay. 13 was a good count or a bad count. Control has 13 : Mm-hmm. You know, we help each 14 many different functions. So, when an officer 14 other. So, if I'm upstairs doing a count, and 15 calls in a count, control takes the officer's 15 it takes me a little longer to come downstairs, 16 word that the count was conducted. didn't 16 she will ick u the phone and take the counts. 17 think that control received the verbal count 17 Okay. 18 from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. 18 : Now, if I go upstairs, and the 19 However, he could not say for sure because he 19 counts, you know, it's a little faster, I will 20 wasn't the one taking the calls for the counts. 20 come downstairs and I will take over the 21 was assistin in doing the counts in the 21 paperwork, just, like, you pass me your 22 other units. signed off on the counts 22 paperwork, I will let you do what you do -. 23 because during that shift, he was the senior 23 Let you finish doing your task, and I will take 24 ranking officer. On the morning of August 24 it ri ht back over where you left off. 25 10th, 2019 -." Is that all correct? 25 : Okay. 35 36 1 : And I will -- 1 an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want 2 : Because, yeah -- 2 to make sure I understand, because your 3 -- (Indiscernible *00:25:11). 3 responsibility on August 10th was actually to 4 I think her 4 take the calls, and take the verbal -- 5 explanation was, she helped with, like, you 5 : Yes. 6 know, everything else, you were involved with 6 : -- counts. Correct? 7 the counts, taking the counts on the phone, and 7 : Yes. 8 8 : Okay. Great. "On the 9 Yeah. 9 morning of August 10th, 2019, a bod alarm went 10 -- and writing the 10 off at approximately 6:33 a.m. responded 11 counts. Is that accurate, actually? 11 to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, 12 Yes. That's accurate. 12 along with another officer. The Nine South 13 : So, this actually is 13 officers, medical, and Lieutenant IIII were 14 inaccurate the way it says that she took all 14 already at the location. With medical 15 the counts and the phone calls, then? 15 performing CPR. went to get a stretcher 16 : I mean, I can't really remember 16 and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the 17 17 medical unit. When emergency medical surveys 18 19 20 ... Okay. 18 what actually happened, but 19 like I said, we try to help each other out -- 20 arrived, they started performing CPR, took Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported him to the hospital. followed the 21 • Sure. 21 ambulance to the hospital in another secure 22 because we all have -- 22 vehicle. IIII stayed at the hospital until he 23 • But as your -- 23 was relieved from duty." 24 many different jobs. 24 : Yes. 25 . -- and this isn't, like, 25 Okay. "IIII doesn't EFTA00113291 37 38 1 recall any specific state that Epstein was in 1 Did you see his eyes 2 when he responded to the scene. did 2 open? 3 recall that Epstein was still loose, because 3 : -- honestly, I cannot really 4 Epstein had to be put in restraints before he 4 tell you what he looks like. 5 could be transported. However, there was no 5 Okay. 6 movement by Epstein on his own." So, was 6 : Because it's been so long ago. 7 Epstein still alive? 7 And the only thing I know, they was performing 8 : Their policy states that nobody 8 CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if 9 passed away inside the institution. Like I 9 you're performing CPR, he's definitely going to 10 said, when I responded, when I got to the post, 10 have to o down to medical. 11 in Nine South, he was already doing, performing 11 : Okay. So, you can't 12 CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. 12 recall - even though this was a big incident, 13 : Okay. 13 and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his 14 : They was already performing 14 eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or 15 CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, 15 anythin like that? 16 someone needs to go get that gurney so they can 16 I can't recall. 17 carry him down to medical. So -- 17 : Okay. "I'll acknowledged 18 : And I understand -- 18 that he wrote a memo about the incident. This 19 : -- (Indiscernible *00:27:13). 19 was due to the fact that when one responds to a 20 : -- that you're not able 20 body alarm, it has to be documented. did 21 to say if he was officially alive or dead, but 21 not recall any interactions with Epstein prior 22 was he showing any signs of life? 22 to Epstein's death." And that's the end of 23 : I don't know. Once I see 23 that. 24 somebody performing CPR, that means something 24 Okay. 25 bad is going on. So -- 25 : Does all that seem 39 40 1 accurate? 1 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, 2 Yes. 2 it's 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for 3 : Okay. I'm not going to 3 the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. 4 attach that. All right. So, we are going to 4 So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One 5 go over the count sheets that were done. Oh, 5 in attorney conference. And one in -. Or I'm 6 shoot. All right. So, these are just the 6 sorry. 75 that were actually physically 7 count sheets for the (Indiscernible *00:28:43). 7 present in the SHU. Correct? 8 This one is -. I'm going to move this over 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 here. So, this one wasn't you. I'm just 9 : All right. And then, 10 showing you, kind of, where I have highlighted 10 we're going to go back, and now we'll start 11 just the time, and then, I have, you know, what 11 looking at these count slips, just so we can 12 we're particularly interested in, are going to 12 kind of get an idea. All right. On the second 13 be RA and ZA. 13 to last page, there's a ZA, it shows 75. I 14 Okay. 14 just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, 15 : ZA stands for the SHU. 15 time 4:00. It says Noel and signed for 16 Correct? 16 them. Correct? 17 Yes. Nine South. 17 : Okay. 18 : The Special Housing Unit. 18 : And then, attorney. It 19 And RA stands for R&D. Correct? 19 actually says three. A total of three, because 20 Yes. 20 they were from other units. All right. So, 21 : All right. Great. So, 21 and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? 22 here is the one for 8/9/2019. It looks like 22 : Yes. 23 this was the 5:00 a.m. count. Correct? 23 : All right. So, we've got 24 Yes. 24 the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we 25 : All right. It shows in 25 get to where you come in. So, this is the EFTA00113292 41 42 1 10:00 o.m. count. Correct? 1 here, we have an NS+1. And then, here, for ZA, 2 Yes. 2 we got a 73+1 8:00, 9:00, 10:00 p.m., it looks 3 : So, on 8/9/2019, this was 3 like a and a Noel. Correct? 4 printed out at 9:33 p.m. According to this, RA 4 Yes. 5 - or R&D - both show zero. 5 : Would you be the ones 6 Yes. 6 that was crossing off all of these count slips? 7 : ZA - which is the SHU 7 Yes. 8 shows 73 on both columns. Correct? 8 : Do you know why these 9 Yes. 9 were not crossed off? 10 : So, is this your 10 I'm not too sure. 11 handwritin here? 11 : Are these nine S, plus 12 Yes. 12 one on the R&D, and this plus one on the ZA, 13 : All right. And would 13 were they our handwriting? 14 this be "good verbal," 10:30 p.m.? 14 Yes. 15 Yes. 15 : So, that is your 16 : All right. So, that 16 handwritin 17 means you took the verbal count, as well? 17 Yes. 18 Yes. 18 : NS+1? 19 All right. And so, then, 19 • That nine S looks like my 20 we'll go to the - it looks like the second to 20 handwritin . Yes. 21 last page here. So, here R&D, 8/19, 21 : And do you know what that 22 10:00 p.m. Was this an =? (Phonetic Sp. 22 would have meant? 23 *00:31:11 23 : Okay. Sometimes, they asked us 24 Yes. 24 to, you know, at the Sentry, it's too late to 25 : All right. And then, up 25 punch in the body, oh, well, punch in the 43 44 1 inmate into the specific housing unit because 1 plus one. But ri ht now, he's in RA. 2 the count, you know, the count down states 2 : Okay. So, what is - when 3 that, after, what? 8:00, after -. If the count 3 it says -. Should this say 73+1 then, or is he 4 is being conducted at 12:00, you have until 4 sayiniiiiiii, 5 10:45, I think, to punch in any new inmate that 5 : No. That's supposed - yeah - 6 is going to a specific unit. So, at this time, 6 it's supposed to be minus one, but I guess that 7 I believe - because only a lieutenant could 7 was an error b me. 8 tell us, to host count. 8 : All right. And you're 9 : Okay. 9 the one who wrote that? 10 : So, basically, the numbers are 10 : Yes. 11 here, the numbers are right, but on this 11 : Okay. So, and are you 12 specific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs 12 positive you're the one who wrote this plus 13 to be moved to Nine South. 13 one, and this 9S+1? By looking at that. 14 : Or that they otherwise, 14 : Now, this right here don't look 15 Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. 15 like m handwritin . 16 : Yeah. 16 : The plus one next to the 17 : Because RA, or R&D, shows 17 73? 18 zero. 18 : Yeah. That don't look like my 19 : Mm-hmm. 19 handwriting. But I know that Nine South, that 20 : Correct? 20 nine and S ri ht there is mine. 21 : Yeah. So, he's in -. So, 21 : So, he Nine South plus 22 basically, he's in RA right now. Because 22 one is ours? 23 that's why we got that little count slip saying 23 : Yeah. 24 RA plus one. Basically, he's supposed to be 24 Okay. And is there a 25 Nine South. He's supposed to be Nine South 25 reason why this wasn't crossed out? EFTA00113293 45 46 1 I don't know. 1 was onl y 12 in the unit? 2 : Okay. And is there 2 : Yes. It would be an inaccurate 3 anything that you can think of, why wasn't the 3 count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my 4 person that was in R&D, why weren't they 4 name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that 5 changed out of the SHU and put into R&D 5 one. 6 internallI in the BOP systems? 6 : All right. Did you drop 7 : I'm not too sure. 7 the ball or did they? Because, look, I don't 8 For El. So, by the way 8 want to say that you dropped the ball here, 9 that this is -. Do you know if you did this at 9 because it looks like, to me, there were 73 10 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you 10 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at 11 remember if ou did it after the fact? 11 midnight, although this is 72 here, and this 12 : I can't remember, sir. 12 last page, it shows ZA, they're still saying 13 EM All right. But in order 13 73. And then, to get even a little more 14 to do this, you're saying that an Ops 14 confusing, when I look at -. When you look at 15 Lieutenant would have had to authorize that? 15 these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if 16 Yeah. 16 you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it 17 : So, you would have spoken 17 starts the shift at 73. 18 to that oerson? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 Yeah. 19 : And then, at 12:35, 20 And do you remember if 20 number one, negative one SHU correction, 21 you suoke to that person, though -? 21 Fernandez, dry cell. And if you go back to 22 : No. I can't remember. 22 this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., 23 • All right. So, the fact 23 it says, Fernandez was placed on dry cell from 24 that these people gave you a count that said 24 ZA. So, it looks like that was finally 25 73, would that be an inaccurate count? If there 25 corrected at 12:35 a.m. 47 48 1 Okay. 1 Yeah. No, I mean, so, 2 : So, does that help jog 2 our investigation, we believe, is showing us 3 your memorIt a all about what happened here? 3 that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. 4 No. 4 However, the people in the unit were reporting 5 : Do you think that, being 5 73, because that's what the documentation 6 that this count, this 73 matches up with this 6 showed, 73. So, they weren't actually 7 count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the 7 conducting their counts. They were reporting 8 midnight count slip still says 73, but at 8 what the thought the numbers should be. 9 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have 9 : Yeah. 10 placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count 10 : So, that's what we're 11 slips after 11 asking you, if they're reporting 73, and your 12 IIIIIIII: Hmm. I believe so. I can't 12 document shows 73, I don't see how you're 13 really recall, but it looks like I dropped the 13 droppiiiiiiiiball. Do you? 14 ball somewhere. 14 : I mean, somehow, somehow, you 15 But how would you have 15 know, like, you showed me my handwriting right 16 dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and 16 here, on the hi hlight -- 17 the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 17 : Well, that's where a 18 73? 18 portion of me wanting - believes that you 19 : Because as you see right here, 19 probably did this. So, every count slip here 20 it says 73. So, something went wrong with the 20 is crossed off. Aside from these two. Why 21 numbers. Somethin went wrong with the -- 21 would that be? 22 Yeah. 22 : I don't know. 23 -- numbers, but I know for sure 23 : Do you know if these 24 that vie had 73 or 72 at that time, on those 24 countiiiiiiiiould have been re-created? 25 units. 25 : I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00113294 49 50 1 looks like handwriting. That looks 1 was in there taking the count 2 like Noel's handwriting. So, you know, 2 with ou? 3 everybody has a, you know, like, a certain type 3 Yes. 4 of handwritin . 4 Okay. So, she was in 5 : Okay. Yeah, so, can you 5 there, and you said you can only put a plus one 6 think of a reason why you would cross all these 6 on a count slip if it's approved by the Ops 7 off, thou not these two? 7 Lieutenant. 8 : I'm not too sure. I can't 8 Yes. 9 remember. 9 : Does that tell you that 10 : Have you ever seen that 10 the probably, then, these plus ones probably 11 before? 11 occurred after the 12:00 a.m. count? 12 : Sometimes, it happens. 12 No. I don't know. 13 : And -. 13 : Because you said you 14 : Like, especially if count slips 14 couldn't do the -. That you couldn't ut these 15 come down late. Sometimes it could happen. 15 plus ones at 10:00 p.m. unless 16 Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another 16 took the count -- 17 task, and I just, you know, looked at it, 17 Yeah. 18 looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, I 18 -- at 12:00. 19 stapled everything together. That could happen 19 : So, this had to be done before 20 too. So -- 20 10:00 m. Or during -- 21 : Okay. 21 : Well, the counts had to 22 rbecause sometimes, we have 22 do -- 23 24 25 another task to o do. : Now, at the 12:00 a.m. count, on August 10th, does that mean that 23 24 25 ... or during 10:00 p.m. -- right. The counts had to be done during 10:00 p.m., but these marks 51 52 1 on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 1 Mm-hmm. 2 73 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, 2 : When - again - she was 3 they didn't necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. 3 there. Ops Lieutenant . So, are 4 Correct? 4 you sure that this Nine South plus one, and 5 : Yes. These have to be done at 5 this plus one would have taken place at that 6 10:00 6 10:00 .m. count? 7 : But the actual Nine South 7 Yeah. 8 plus one, and this -- 8 : Because why - if that 9 : Yeah. 9 were the case - why wouldn't this have happened 10 -- plus one -- 10 well before the 12:00 p.m. count? Because 11 : Yeah. That's after. 11 again, this R&D slip, there's not even somebody 12 -- can't be done after 12 there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at 13 the fact? 13 the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person 14 : Maybe a little bit after. 14 have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. 15 Maybe a little bit after because the count 15 count? Or why would have she caught it at 12:35 16 probably didn't clear until -. The count 16 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 17 didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this 17 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 73 18 probably was during that timeline, from either 18 on their count slip? You follow what I'm 19 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be 19 saying? 20 brought about or enerated. 20 : Yeah. 21 : All right. Well, so, 21 Does that make you think 22 this person who is in R&D, it's this person, 22 about them a little bit differently? 23 like I just mentioned, Fernandez. This is an 23 : 73 is what the count is 24 inmate quarter history. This person wasn't 24 supposed to be? 25 removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. 25 No. 72 is what the count EFTA00113295 53 54 1 is su osed to be. 1 stickliiiiiii? It 2 : Yeah. 2 : I believe so. Yeah. I believe 3 : So, this count -- 3 so, because wh is it there? You know? And -- 4 : Okay. 4 : My -- 5 -- on the El is correct. 5 -- (Indiscernible *00:42:26). 6 : Yeah. 6 • -- own idea is it's there 7 : The count slip is 7 is because you now have the person, the Ops 8 incorrect. 8 Lieutenant, at 12:00 a.m. saying, hey, go back 9 : Yes. The count slip is 9 to this count slip, put these plus ones, so it 10 incorrect. 10 reflects that's where these people actually 11 So, at 10:00 p.m., these 11 were. Did that make sense? 12 guys are reflecting 73. Your El shows there's 12 MR. : Do you understand what he 13 supposed to be 73. So, you have a good count. 13 Yeah. 14 : Yeah. And so -- 14 MR. -- showed you? 15 : This one, they reflect -- 15 Yeah. I -- 16 -- I dropped the ball -- 16 MR. : About the fact that -- 17 --73. 17 • -- I know what he's saying. 18 I must have dropped the ball 18 MR. : -- the actual (Indiscernible 19 right there. 19 *00:42:44 of that inmate missing. 20 : So, what I'm asking, 20 : Yeah. 21 though, with this, you're telling me that his 21 MR. : Didn't happen until passed 22 handwriting had to have happened at the 10:00 22 midnight, because if not, the corrections would 23 p.m. count. 23 have had to happen at 10:00 p.m. 24 Yes. 24 : Yes. 25 : Correct? And you still 25 : Yeah. So -- 55 56 1 Now, now -. 1 don't - the way I look at it - it's not a drop 2 -- if this was caught at 2 the ball on you. Because you didn't know that 3 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn't be messed 3 that guy wasn't in there. So, we're trying to 4 up. That person would have been keyed out. 4 help you put the pieces together of, if this is 5 Right? 5 your actual handwriting, when would have that 6 Yeah. 6 happened? To me, it seems like you're relying 7 : But he wasn't keyed out 7 on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't 8 until 12:35 a.m. 8 key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. 9 Okay. 9 Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. 10 : But their slip is still 10 And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured 11 bad -- 11 it out is because she's getting count slips. I 12 : Yeah. 12 don't know when this count slip would have come 13 -- at 12:00 a.m. 13 in, but there's a count slip for R&D at 10:00 14 : Their slip is bad. 14 p.m., and there's another count slip for R&D at 15 : So, the count slip is 15 midnight. But like we said, this is the one 16 bad. That count number is good. That is the 16 thing that's bad, this is bad, if that actually 17 real count number. The question is, when did 17 came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in 18 this happen? To me, it looks like the people in 18 R&D. 19 the SHU were just reporting the number they 19 Okay. 20 thought they were supposed to be giving to you. 20 : But the thing that we're 21 73. They didn't realize that this guy wasn't 21 trying to piece together, and what we're trying 22 in there. He was actually in R&D. He was in 22 to talk to, is two) because of when were these 23 R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. 23 things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you 24 count is bad. The 10:00 p.m. count is bad. 24 know, notations made on these two count slips; 25 And finally, at midnight, it's caught. So, I 25 and second, why are they the only two that are EFTA00113296 57 58 1 not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. 1 been next to her, though, if she was in 2 : Hmm. I don't have no answer 2 control correct? 3 for -- 3 IIIIIIII: Yes. But, you know, like, if 4 You don't remember that - 4 she was talking, I probably was focused on a 5 5 different task, because I have paperwork that I 6 -- for that question. 6 have to do too. 7 -- at all? 7 : Okay. 8 No. 8 : But around this time, I start 9 It : Do you remember, at all, 9 cleanin out the folders. 10 any conversations that were had with the SHU 10 : Okay. So, around the 11 that night, with regard to these counts? Or 11 10:30 .m. time? 12 this 'erson being placed in R&D. 12 : Yeah. 13 : No. 13 : All right. So, there's 14 • Do you -. 14 nothing that you can kind of help shed us light 15 I can't recall. 15 on, with these count slips? 16 • Do you remember - so 16 : No. I don't have nothing. 17 we're told that the Ops Lieutenant, 17 : And is it fair to say, 18 , claims she may have had a conversation 18 though, you do not know when you put these Nine 19 with the SHU, and where this person is - do you 19 S plus one on the R&D, and then, the plus one 20 remember that at all? 20 on the ZA? 21 No. 21 : Yeah. 22 : No? 22 : So, you don't -. 23 : Because if she talked to SHU, I 23 : Now, this is not my handwriting 24 wouldn't have been on the phone for that. 24 right here. 25 But wouldn't you have 25 So, the plus one next to 59 60 1 the ZA is not you? 1 ever ha ened before? That you can think of. 2 : I don't think that's me. But I 2 : Probably. I mean, you know -- 3 know for sure that's me. Right there. 3 : Have you seen -- 4 MR. : What do you know is for sure? 4 -- it's not a -- 5 The nine S or the plus one? 5 -- things like -? 6 : Yeah. The nine S, plus one. 6 -- it's not a, you know, it's 7 Because the plus one here 7 not a -. It's not a, you know, it's not a 8 looks kind of similar to this plus one there, 8 science. You know? Mistakes do happen. 9 doesn't it? 9 Because we do drop the ball. That's why we 10 : It looks similar, but I don't 10 have to, you know, view each other, and be, you 11 believe that's my handwriting. But it could 11 know, and work behind each other, and look over 12 be. It could be. 12 each other's shoulder. It can be possible. 13 : Or maybe this plus one 13 : So, any one that we've 14 isn't ours just the nine S is yours. 14 showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I've 15 : You know, it could be my 15 never seen anything like that before. But this 16 handwritin . And I can't -- 16 has actually happened in the past, where you've 17 It could be. 17 seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine S 18 I can't remember. You know, 18 plus one? 19 it's been -- 19 : Sometimes. Like I said, you 20 All right. 20 know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves 21 22 23 24 M has -- a while. : It's been a while. But 22 Yeah. 21 23 24 early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., R&D should have one home already. : Yeah. So, they have a guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, 25 -- anything like this 25 watching him. EFTA00113297 61 62 1 : Yes. 1 : -- maybe actually had a fault 2 : Correct? And that's where 2 over it, you know? Started, you know, 3 that we et the name 3 complainin about it. I don't know. You know? 4 : Yeah. 4 : How would have you known 5 : -- he's a custody guy, 5 that it was nine S plus one? Would SHU have to 6 right? 6 have told ou that there was somebody? 7 : He's custody. 7 : Yes. 8 : Right. And this guy, 8 : So, you believe you 9 apparently, has been in there before the 4:00 9 called the SHU, and they told you? 10 p.m. count. 10 : I don't -. I can't recall if I 11 : Yeah. 11 called SHU or not. I probably was doing what I 12 : There is no count -- 12 was told. Because, as an officer, that's, you 13 : Yeah. 13 know, I know that's a no-no. You can't put 14 : -- slip from -- 14 that. 15 : Mm-hmm. 15 Okay. So, if there are 16 : -- for the 4:00 p.m. 16 only 72 inmates in the SHU -- 17 : Yeah. 17 : That should have been minus 18 : He's never keyed out of 18 one. Like ou said. 19 SHU. So, again, I haven't been looking at you 19 : -- but this slip that 20 as dropping the ball on this. So, explain to 20 they gave you in the first place was wrong. 21 me whiliiiiiiink you dropped the ball here. 21 Correct? Shouldn't have their slip that they 22 : I should have caught it. I 22 provided to ou say 72? 23 should have said something about it. And maybe 23 : Yes. 24 I -- 24 : So, does that indicate 25 But how would have you -. 25 that they didn't do the count, to you? 63 64 1 : No. You could still do the 1 SHU at 10:00 p.m., and told them, we got 2 count. I mean, you could still do the count, 2 somebody in R&D, they wouldn't continue to 3 but if somebody, you know, higher up said, yo, 3 write 73 at 12:00 a.m. Would they? 4 this is what you need to put on the count slip, 4 : I'm not too sure. I can't -- 5 that's what you put on the count slip. Now, 5 : Especially if -- 6 you knallill24_12mebody dropped the ball. 6 -- (Indiscernible *00:49:55). 7 And that's where, again, 7 -- the El now, because at 8 my opinion has always been all along that it 8 12:35, it's correct, that it says 72 9 was the SHU that dropped the ball. So, I want 9 : Yeah. 10 you to keep in mind, again, because there's 10 -- at 12:00 a.m. Right? 11 still Noel and Thomas. On this 10:00 p.m. one 11 : Yes. Like, at this time, I 12 is Noel and . On the 12:00 a.m. one, 12 just generate the El. 13 it's Noel and Thomas. Both of their count 13 Right. 14 slips say 73. So, if somebody told somebody at 14 : And I put my name as the 15 10:00 p.m. that there was actually only 72, 15 officer, who I'm preparing. Now, if the 16 which is what I'm gathering you're trying to 16 lieutenant took the count, you know, like -- 17 say, why at 12:00 a.m. would of they continued 17 And the lieutenant can't 18 to write 73? 18 take this count -- 19 : I don't know, sir. 19 Yeah. 20 : And that's where -- 20 -- correct? 21 : (Indiscernible *00:49:33). 21 : Like, the lieutenant wrote her 22 : -- and that, again, 22 name, she took the count. Me as the officer 23 that's where I just want to make sure we're not 23 that was preparing this, I should have took a 24 tripping over ourselves here because that is, 24 look at it, to see if the numbers all jive from 25 to me, highly unlikely that if you spoke to the 25 last, from the last count. But I figured that EFTA00113298 65 66 1 the El was correct, and it cleared, in good 1 the exact same thing. She keyed out this 2 verbal, and it cleared. So, nobody didn't 2 person, Fernandez, from SHU and placed him in 3 think nothin of it. 3 R&D, at the exact same time this El was printed 4 : So, if the Ops Lieutenant 4 out. 5 is supposed to be taking the 12:00 a.m. count, 5 : Yeah. 6 and the 12:00 a.m. count slip from the SHU is 6 : Correct? 7 saying 73, whereas the El says 72, is this bad 7 : Yeah. 8 on the 0 s Lieutenant? 8 : So -. 9 Bad on both parties. 9 : Okay. Now I see where you're 10 : Would you be assisting 10 going. This is wa after the 12:00. 11 her with this? 11 : This is way after the 12 : No. 12 12:00. But this count slip says 73. The 10:00 13 : During that time. So, on 13 p.m. count slip also says 73. My point being 14 this part, how would you be involved, if she's 14 is, I don't think you did anything wrong here. 15 doing it herself? 15 I think this thing, the El, shows 73. They're 16 : I should have took a look at 16 providing you something that says 73. So, to 17 the numbers before I gave it to her. 17 me, you're good. But the question is, when did 18 : But it looks like this 18 these things come into play. One of these 19 was printed out at the same time that -. So, 19 notations. 20 this erson was keyed out at 0035. 20 I can't remember. 21 Mm-hmm. 21 : You can't remember? 22 : This El was printed out 22 : I can't remember. But I know 23 at 0035. 23 that Nine South is mine. 24 Mm-hmm. 24 So, you know that you 25 : So, it looks like it was 25 wrote this? 67 68 1 Yeah. 1 Per her instruction. 2 : And you believe you would 2 : No. I wouldn't have did this 3 have wrote it, though, per the Ops Lieutenant's 3 because I would have known this is, you know, 4 direction? 4 this will come back and bite you in the ass if 5 : Yeah. 5 I did this after -- 6 All right. So, 6 No, no, no, I'm not 7 Lieutenant , who was the Ops 7 talking about -- 8 Lieutenant, would have instructed you to do 8 -- midnight. 9 that? 9 -- the whole concept. 10 Yeah. 10 Mm-hmm. 11 : And don't you believe 11 . I'm simply talking about 12 that she would have done that, told you to do 12 the plus one and the Nine South plus one. 13 that after she realized that person wasn't in 13 : Hmm. Oh, I don't -. I 14 SHU, iiiiiiiison was in R&D? 14 wouldn't have did that after, at the 12:00 15 : Oh, probably. Probably, it was 15 count oin backwards. 16 a miscommunication about where that inmate was 16 : So, do you remember 17 truly at. 17 having a conversation with her, then, after the 18 So, does that make you 18 fact, and letting her know Fernandez isn't 19 think, re-think what you said, then? You said, 19 there? 20 at 10:00 p.m., you would have - 10:00, 10:30 20 : I can't remember. 21 p.m. - you would have made those notations, but 21 : Okay. 22 now, does it make you think, oh, you know what? 22 : I'm sorry. 23 It probably was after the 12:00 p.m. count that 23 : You know, I'm just, again 24 I made those notations? 24 25 : No. 25 : That was such a while -. EFTA00113299 69 70 1 -- the reason -. So, if 1 come on her shift that night? 2 you did notice it, how would have you noticed 2 Oh. 3 it? 3 MR. Do you recall? 4 : Before the -. Oh, well, I did 4 We were talking about 5 this durin the 10:00 p.m. count. 5 10:00 p.m. 6 : You would have -. And 6 MR. : Was she around when this 7 the Ops Lieutenant would have had to tell you, 7 10:00 m. came in? 8 during the 10:00 p.m. count, that this has 8 : Yes. She should have been on 9 happened? 9 duty at that time. 10 : Yes. 10 MR. : Do you recall -- 11 : And then, again, this is 11 Now, what time -- 12 where I'm super baffled. Why wasn't the person 12 MR. : -- any -. 13 keyed out until after the 12:00 a.m. count? 13 • -- what time did she come on 14 : Mm-hmm. 14 duty? I can't really remember because they've 15 : The 35 and the 3S. 15 been chap in their times, you know -- 16 : Okay. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : Do you follow me? 17 • -- so, I can't really remember 18 : Yeah. 18 at that time. 19 : Why wouldn't that have 19 MR. : Do you recall any 20 happened until then? Especially if you noticed 20 conversations with her? Forget the SHU. With 21 this. Why would the SHU have continued to 21 her, re arding somebody being in R&D? 22 report 73? 22 : Hmm. 23 MR. : Can I ask a question? 23 MR. : Or the El being wrong, 24 : Yeah. 24 between 10:00 p.m. and midnight. 25 MR. : What time did 25 : Hmm. No. I truly can't 71 72 1 recall. 1 : 10:33. 2 . Okay. 2 No, 9:30. 3 MR. : So, I have follow up on the 3 MR. : 9:30. 4 10:00. Right? So, you did the 10:00 p.m., 4 Oh, 9:33. 5 right? And I just realized something, too. If 5 MR. : And this is for the 10:00 6 this count slip came up, right? The 10:00 p.m. 6 p.m. count. 7 count slip came up, and the SHU is on the -. 7 And this is for the 10:00. 8 Right? How come the El didn't get updated? 8 MR. : So, you've saying that this 9 ME' I can't -. 9 El is for the 10:00 p.m. count, was this 10 MR. : What is the normal procedure? 10 printed out at 9:33 p.m.? 11 Let's say it turns out that you're doing the 11 Mt Yes. 12 count, ri ht? 12 MR. : And being the fact that a 13 : And we (Indiscernible 13 slip came up from R&D, you're saying that a new 14 *00:55:40. 14 El for the 10:00 p.m. -- 15 MR. : And you have a body in R&D. 15 : A new El should have been 16 Right? And there's a count slip here. What 16 generated, but we're supposed to not do that. 17 should have happened? 17 Or no. I'm not too clear on how -. Like, I 18 : What should had happened is 18 normally, normally, we don't do -. Normally, 19 another El should have been generated. Like, 19 we don't generate another El unless somebody 20 this one was, after the 12:00. 20 tells us to. But I should have just did a new 21 MR. : But that one was generated. 21 El. 22 . I just want to make sure 22 MR. : Who would have to tell you 23 I -. Indiscernible *00:56:04) 23 that a new El had to be generated? 24 (Indiscernible *00:56:03) 24 : Normally, we take it upon 25 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:56:03) 25 ourselves to generate an El. Like, I should EFTA00113300 73 74 1 had generated a new El. 1 and new count slips should have been generated. 2 MR. : Should -. Okay. At that 2 MR. : Do you recall having any 3 point, being the fact that there's a body in 3 conversations with anyone in the SHU that 4 R&D, right? And somehow, it got marked because 4 night? 5 it looks like it was associated, it says nine 5 No, sir. 6 S, to the SHU slip. 6 MR. : What about R&D? 7 916 Yeah. 7 : If it's 10:00 p.m., R&D already 8 MR. : That there was a body moved. 8 left. 9 Should there have been a flag that there was 9 MR. : But keep in mind, this 10 somebiiiiiiiiing in the system? 10 somebod is in there, right? 11 : Yeah. There should have been a 11 In custody. 12 flag. 12 MR. : According to the count slip, 13 MR. : So, what should have 13 there's -- 14 happened? Was the count right, at that point? 14 In custody. 15 : Paper wise, no, the count was 15 MR. : -- in custody, but he's 16 not right. 16 sitting in R&D right now -- 17 MR. : So, what should have 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 happened? 18 MR. : -- because they have a body 19 : A new El should have been 19 sitting in dry cell, and he's watching over -- 20 generated. The inmates name should have been, 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 you know, sent to CNA, so we could process, to 21 MR. -- the erson in dry cell, in 22 type them into the system. 22 R&D. Now that, when sends to you - 23 MR. : What should have happened to 23 sends a count slip, and says, hey, 24 the count slips? 24 listen, I've got a body sitting here, right, 25 : They should have been trashed, 25 and you see the El, should a conversation been 75 76 1 had with , also? 1 ever happened that night? 2 Yes. 2 : I don't recall. 3 MR. : And -. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 : Like I said, is just a 4 Okay. And you're just -. 5 correctional officer. He probably was pretty 5 Point being on this, that's your handwriting, 6 new. So, he probably didn't know, either. You 6 you just don't remember what happened, or when 7 know what I'm saying? You know, he probably 7 it ha ened? 8 didn't know to call CNA, or -- 8 : Yes, sir. 9 MR. : But know what, though? 9 Correct. But you do - 10 -- (Indiscernible *00:58:43). 10 you're sticking with - you do believe that you 11 MR. : Sorry. What would he not 11 would have written that stuff during the 10:00 12 know? 12 p.m. count, and not after it was recognized at 13 : Probably not know -. He 13 12:35 a.m. -- 14 probably thought that the inmate was already in 14 Yes. 15 the system, because he's sitting on the post. 15 -- so, you think that you 16 MR. : No, no, but I'm saying that, 16 did this actually during that count? 17 you have an El sitting in front of you, with 17 Yes. 18 zero, sitting in R&D. He's sending you a slip 18 : That's just what's 19 for one person. 19 baffling to me. But if you did that during 20 : Yeah. 20 that count, wouldn't you have contacted the 21 MR. : Should a conversation had 21 SHU, to let them know that their count is 22 been had with , hey, listen, who do you 22 wrong? 23 have there? 23 : Yes. I think either A, either 24 Yes. 24 I would have did it, or send it what I did it, 25 MR. : Was a conversation like that 25 but I don't recall talking to Nine South and EFTA00113301 77 78 1 myself. 1 And you know if you've 2 Right. And per the Ops 2 ever done that in the past? 3 Lieutenant, she said that she had the 3 : No. 4 conversation with them, and she said she had 4 : Okay. All right. All 5 the conversation with them during the 12:00 5 right. Let's move on. If you do remember 6 a.m. count. 6 anything about that, again, in our mind, we've 7 : I'm not too sure. 7 been going upon the fact that the SHU is 8 : Okay. 8 reporting what they think the El is supposed to 9 : I can't -. 9 be, you know, the El says and what they're 10 : And you don't remember 10 supposed to be reporting. They're reporting 11 that conversation? 11 they're incorrect numbers, from at last 3:15 12 : I don't remember. 12 p.m. They have one less than the number that 13 : All right. So, you 13 they're actually showing on their count slips. 14 believe the R&D unit, at least the Nine S is 14 That's for the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. 15 your handwriting. On the 10:00 p.m., ZA count 15 count, and even the 12:00 a.m. count. So, if 16 slip, the SHU count slip, you do not believe 16 you can remember anything with regard to that 17 that lus one is your handwriting? 17 knowledge, but after the fact that we speak, 18 : No, I don't believe, but it 18 you know, and when these things happened, we 19 could be mine. 19 would so reatly appreciate you calling us -- 20 : Okay. 20 Okay. 21 : Because I did take the count. 21 -- and letting us know. 22 : All right. And you don't 22 When we go through documents, rather than 23 know why you would have crossed every other 23 bombarding you at the end, we ask people to 24 countiiiiiiiif, aside from this, these two? 24 initial and date those documents. So, I'll 25 : No. 25 just - while we're at it - I'm going to show. 79 80 1 Is this 3:00 a.m. count on August 10th, 2019, 1 this to m attention. 2 was that ou as well? 2 : Oh, so, you never even 3 : That's mine. 3 knew that until now? 4 : All right. Great. So, 4 I never knew this until now. 5 this first El, it shows - again - ZA now shows 5 : And even at this time, 6 72, ZA says 72. RA says one, RA says one. And 6 though, when it was happening, no one ever 7 the same thing with these count slips, the back 7 brought it to your attention that, dude, these 8 ZA says -. Now, the ZA does say 72. So, they 8 count slips aren't matching up what the El 9 changed from their 12:00 a.m. count slip, where 9 says? 10 they're reporting 73, to now the 3:00 a.m. 10 No. 11 count slip, they're showing 72. RA is, again, 11 : So, you don't even 12 showin one. Correct? 12 remember that taking place? 13 : Yes. 13 No, sir. 14 : And would this be a big 14 : All right. And then, 15 deal, if this kind of stuff happened? Where the 15 here's the 5:00 a.m. count, created by you. 16 Els are bad, the count slips are wrong. 16 Or, you know, it shows, again, one in RA, 72 in 17 : Yes. 17 ZA, or the SHU. And here's the RA count one 18 : And being that this is, 18 slip. Here's the 72 for ZA. Again, Noel and 19 like, a big deal, this isn't at all sticking 19 Thomas. All right. So, these all look good. 20 out to ou -- 20 Now, is this normal, to print out the -. So, 21 • I mean -- 21 the 5:00 a.m. and the 3:00 a.m. counts were 22 • -- remind you that -. 22 both iiiiiiiiout at 1:22 a.m. Is that normal? 23 • -- yeah, but, like, this is the 23 : Sometimes, the computers go 24 first time, you know, I'm talking about these 24 down. 25 Els, y'all are the first people that brought 25 Okay. EFTA00113302 81 82 1 : So, me personally, I know that 1 effect? 2 the computers go down. Meaning that Sentry, 2 : No. 3 for the BOP, normally goes down. So, I try to 3 MR. : Okay. 4 print up several copies, so just in case if the 4 And again, do you mind 5 computers go down, I have copies already. 5 just, all these documents, just initial and 6 Okay. 6 dating the top of each one. It's not to 7 : Now, on a typical, normal 7 certify the accuracy. It's just to say that 8 shift, when the computers are up and running, 8 this is what we actually spoke about during 9 Sentry is up and running, I try to print it out 9 this interview. 10 an hour of the count. 10 MR. : Today is 8/5/21. 11 . Okay. 11 8 -- 12 MR. : within the hour, you mean? 12 MR. : 5/21. 13 Oh, within the -- 13 -- 8/5/21. 14 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 -- within the hour of the 15 Okay. 16 count. 16 MR. : lust the top of each one. 17 MR. : Okay. 17 And this is just for accuracy? 18 : You know, 45 minutes to an hour 18 MR. : No, no. 19 of the count. 19 Oh. 20 MR. : Do you recall, any time that 20 MR. : This is just to say -- 21 night, receiving any replacement count slips? 21 (Indiscernible 22 MIL I can't really -. 22 *01:05:35. 23 MR. : Any conversations about, hey, 23 MR. : -- state that these are the 24 listen, there's a second set of count slips 24 documents showed you. 25 coming up from the SHU? Or anything to that 25 : Okay. 83 84 1 Yeah. So, by you putting 1 : You know, I apologize if I 2 your initials and dates on it, we can say, we 2 can't help you anymore. Since this is the 3 can positively confirm this is the document we 3 first time I'm hearing about this, y'all 4 talked about. 4 bringin it to m attention. 5 Okay. : But you do agree that the 6 : So, we can't go back 6 SHU should have been providing count slips that 7 later and, like, change something and say, no, 7 said 72, both at the 10:00 p.m. and the 12:00 8 we talked about this document, and say, no, no, 8 a.m. count. Correct? Being that he was moved 9 no, no, it's got my initial and my date, you 9 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., the day before? Or 10 know, my date on here. This is specifically 10 on Au ust 9th. 11 what we talked about. Do you follow what I'm 11 : I do agree because that's a 12 saying? 12 part of your post orders. And I, you know, 13 : Yeah. 13 that's a art of our function. 14 • lust to show what the 14 : Yeah. So -- 15 documents you were presented, you know, what 15 : (Indiscernible *01:07:12) 16 documents you were presented. So, it sounds, 16 custoil 17 like, by when you're saying that you think you 17 : -- the count slips were 18 dropped the ball, it sounds like what you're 18 bad. And regardless of what you can remember, 19 saying is, you knew that someone was gone from 19 the 10:00 p.m., or actually, the 4:00 p.m., the 20 the SHU, and it was in R&D at 10:00 p.m., but 20 10:00 p.m., and the 12:00 a.m. count slips 21 you never contacted the SHU to let them know, 21 provided by the SHU were all bad because this 22 or to ask them about it? Or you just don't 22 guy was moved to the R&D holding cell at least 23 remember? 23 3:15 .m. Correct? 24 No. I just don't remember. 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. 25 : Yes. They all should be EFTA00113303 85 86 1 one less than what they were reporting? 1 going to over these very generally. These 2 Yeah. Yes. 2 issues. What do you know of Epstein's alleged 3 : Okay. Thank you. And 3 first suicide attempt on July 23rd, 2019? 4 again, though - and I want to be clear on this 4 : Nothing. I don't think I was 5 - by you putting 95+1 on the RA count slip, and 5 here at that time. I mean, I think I was 6 plus one on the ZA count slip, that would have 6 either off, or I called out. So, I don't 7 had to have been by the direction of the Ops 7 really know about his first hanging. 8 Lieutenant? 8 Okay. Now, was he -- 9 : Yes. Somebody higher up than 9 Or attempt. 10 an ei ht. 10 -- was Epstein placed on 11 : Okay. What is your 11 suicide watch? 12 understanding of what happened to Epstein on 12 Yes. 13 August 9th and 10th of 2019? 13 : Okay. And then, being 14 : My understanding is that he 14 placed on suicide watch, when they returned to 15 committed suicide. 15 the SHU was he required to have a cell mate? 16 Okay. And what is your 16 Yes. I believe so. 17 understandin' of how he died? 17 : Okay. Is everybody that 18 : He died by hanging himself. 18 returns to the SHU required to have a cell mate 19 . Okay. Do you have any 19 if the 're on suicide watch? 20 information with regard to any suspicious 20 Yes. 21 activity that occurred on August 9th or 10th, 21 : Okay. Do you know if 22 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in 22 Epstein was prematurely removed from suicide 23 his cell? 23 watch? 24 No. 24 : I don't know. But I believe so 25 : All right. I'm just 25 because, you know, I mean, he's fighting a very 87 88 1 big case. 1 : -- that from? 2 Mm-hmm. 2 : It was just rumors, and word of 3 : And so, if he tried the first 3 mouth of ou know, how us officers talk. 4 time, I definitely believe he would try it 4 : Okay. But you had heard again. 5 that contacted the warden? 6 And do you know why he 6 : You know, I can't say it's for 7 was removed from suicide watch after the first 7 sure. 8 attemiiiiiiii 8 : Right. 9 : I'm not too sure. There was 9 : It's just, you know, what, you 10 speculation, you know, they said rumors about 10 know, it was, like, drinking. You know, 11 the court system, you know, since this case is 11 drinking, having a couple beers, this is what's 12 so big, he needs access to his lawyers. He 12 going on in the building, this is what I heard. 13 needs access to his paperwork. So, maybe, 13 Some of it is true. Some of it is very not 14 maybe, maybe his lawyer pulled in some 14 true. 15 paperwork to a judge, and the judge probably 15 : Sure. 16 said, yo, he needs to have access to his 16 : So, I don't know. I can't 17 paperwork. I'm not too sure. 17 reall sa that's definitely. 18 So, you had heard that, 18 : Okay. And what do you 19 possibly, the judge contacted who? The warden? 19 know about Epstein's cell mate being removed 20 : Possibility. I don't know. 20 from the MCC on August 9th, 2019? 21 Okay. 21 : I think he got released. I 22 : No. I'm too small on the food 22 think he of released. 23 chain to know this information. 23 : So, he was transferred. 24 And who did you hear -- 24 But - all right - did you have anything to do 25 : All that. 25 with -. Did you know his cell mate was Efrain EFTA00113304 89 90 1 Reyesiiiiiiiiu know that? 1 time does the -. If inmates aren't back from 2 : I heard of his name. But I'm 2 court -- 3 not too sure since I don't work nights at all. 3 Yeah. 4 : Okay. Had you heard that 4 -- what time does the 5 he was transferred, or released? 5 people -? 6 I lust -- 6 : CNA do not do anything for the 7 : Like, removed from the 7 courts. 8 MCC? 8 Okay. 9 : I heard that his bunkee was 9 : That's R&O's job. R&D's job is 10 released. 10 to, you know, delegate all the courts, and we 11 Okay. 11 don't touch that. Now, if an inmate comes in 12 : Now, that's all I heard. Like, 12 late, like, you know, like you showed me, like 13 how sure it is, how definite, I don't know. 13 if an inmate comes in late, or have to stay in 14 : Now, with you being in 14 R&D late, and I have to move him later, to 15 the positions that you were in on August 9th 15 another housing unit, like take him off of RA 16 and August 10th, working in internal and 16 and put him, or put him in Nine South, ZA. 17 control, would you have anything to do with 17 That's what I do. I just type, type, type -- 18 that, with making sure the SHU was aware that 18 Mm-hmm. 19 20 21 22 Reyes was not coming back to the institution? 19 : No. : No? Okay. What time did 21 you begin work again on August 9th? At 6:00. 20 22 = -- transfer. : All right. So, and let's go back to Fernandez. Who should have keyed Fernandez out of the SHU and placed him into 23 Or -- 23 the R&D? 24 MR. :00. 24 : Take him out of SHU, place him 25 -- at 4:00. So, what 25 into R&D, it's supposed to be CNA. 91 92 1 Okay. And then, who - if 1 Yes. So, that happened -. 2 this happened at about 3:15 p.m. Let's see, 2 : So, the visitation at 3 the (Indiscernible *01:13:08) - who, on this 3 1:40, we just know by 3:15, at least, he was 4 daily schedule for August 9th, should have done 4 put into R&D dry cell. 5 that? If it happened at about 3:00 in the 5 : That should have been control 6 afternoon. 6 number two. 7 : If it happened at 3:00 in the 7 And who was in that 8 afternoon, whoever was in CNA, CNA during. 8 position at that time? 9 MR. : We'll explain the situation a 9 : This is, it says on the 10 little bit. He was a SHU inmate. He had 10 9th. 11 visitation. He went into the visitation, and 11 All right. So, 12 officers saw him ossibly receiving contraband. 12 was the one who was supposed to make sure that 13 : Visitation in the SHU, 13 14 though. So -- 14 : No, it would have -. You said 15 MR. : In the SHU. 15 2:00? Okay. I don't know what this is. 2:00 16 : -- this is SHU 16 to 8:00. 17 visitation, the SHU officer saw the contraband, 17 MR. _: Mm-hmm. 18 and moved him to R&D dry cell. 18 : 6:00 to 14. Wait a minute. 19 : Oh okay. 19 Control number two. It should have been -. 20 : And moved him to medical, 20 Well, who's supposed to be there? Because this 21 I think, and then R&D dry cell. 21 is what -. Could you -? 22 : Okay. 22 MR. : All right. 23 : Does that make sense? So, 23 : Okay. You said by, in between 24 who would have been -? But that happened at 24 times -- 25 1:40. 25 It looks like 1:00 -- EFTA00113305 93 94 1 : -- of 3:00 -. 1 he goes through the scanner, now he's supposed 2 -- 1:40 -- 2 to go an available dry cell. Now, I don't know 3 1:40. 3 if they used R&D, or if they used our HA unit. 4 -- was when it happened. 4 HA unit is normally where we put everybody for 5 But then, he was placed - we know, at least - 5 dry cell. 6 in R&D, according to the lieutenant's log, at 6 : Yeah, no, this was an odd 7 3:15, he was placed into R&D dry cell. So, I 7 thing that they put him in R&D, right? 8 don't know. Well, if they found him with some 8 : And then, you know, if 9 kind of thing on him, and he went to -. Would 9 sometimes they choose to put him down in HA. 10 he have to o to medical first? 10 Sometimes they choose to put him in R&D. 11 Mm-hmm. 11 Sometimes they choose to go straight to Nine 12 : So, he would go to SHU. 12 South. If there's available - Nine South - if 13 Would he then go to medical? And then, from 13 there's an available, empty cell. 14 medical to R&D dry cell? 14 : Okay. 15 Yeah. 15 : They will take him straight to 16 : In order for him to pass 16 Nine South, and put an officer in front of his 17 somethinI? 17 door to watch him. 18 : Yeah. 18 : Okay. 19 Is that how it would 19 : If there's an available cell. 20 work? 20 Because normally, sometimes, most of the time, 21 : It's supposed to work like 21 Nine South gets a little crowded. So, we don't 22 that. It's supposed to -. Normally, we take 22 have an available cell to put an inmate that's 23 an inmate straight to -. If our scanner is 23 supposed to be on dry cell. So, they have to 24 working, we're supposed to take them there 24 figure it out, where are they going to put him, 25 first. Co put him through the scanner. Once 25 either in R&D, put an officer, or HA, put an 95 96 1 officer. 1 worked that day? 2 But in this case, though, 2 : I'm not too sure. 3 if at 1:40, it's found out, and then, by at 3 : Okay. Yeah. And 4 least 3:15, he's moved to R&D. Who should have 4 was listed on the 4:00 p.m. count. 5 - at 3:15 - coded him into R&D, and out of SHU? 5 : Okay. 6 : Okay. Control number two. It 6 : So, that would have been 7 should have been in between (Phonetic Sp. 7 that should have done it? 8 *01:16:44) or 8 : Yes. 9 All right. So then, if 9 : Okay. Okay. What about 10 it was at 3:15, I'm assuming it would have been 10 with Reyes? And if the SHU knew that Reyes left 11 because -- 11 WAB, but they believed he went to court, rather 12 : Mm-hmm. 12 than transferred. So, if they know he's WAB, 13 -- that's from -. He 13 and he went to court, is there an argument to 14 started at 2:00. Correct? 14 be had that they thought he could possibly have 15 Yes. 15 returned that day? 16 : All lit. But you said 16 : To be honest with you, I don't 17 that you don't even think worked that 17 know. Since I don't -- 18 day. You said it was somebody else? 18 : If someone's listed -. 19 : I'm not too sure. I can't 19 rsince I don't work Nine 20 remember. 20 South -- 21 All right. And this is 21 : Okay. 22 the position that would have been for 22 rand I try to - I tend to 23 Fernandez. So, I'm circling his name and 23 stay out of their business. 24 writing Fernandez movement. 24 : But when there's a court 25 MR. : You said you're not sure if 25 list and it shows WAB next to someone's name -- EFTA00113306 97 98 1 : Mm-hmm. 1 And why would they 2 : -- or then, I shouldn't 2 alreaiiiiiiii 3 say court list. What's it called? Because you 3 : Because they work there. But, 4 just corrected us. Not the court list, but 4 like I said earlier, a lot of, you know, a lot 5 that would be -- 5 of staff have left at that time, either they 6 MR. The call out. 6 quit, either they retired, either that they, 7 -- the call out list. 7 you know, found another job. So, we was 8 Yes. 8 lackin a lot of staff during this time. 9 So, if the call out list 9 Okay. 10 says, "Reyes, WAB" should they know that he's 10 : So, everybody is on overtime. 11 not goin to return? 11 If you look, I was on overtime. So, when a lot 12 : Yes. 12 of people was on overtime. Now, like I said, 13 Okay. So, would there be 13 maybe - you know what I'm saying? - maybe, if I 14 anything for someone in, like, control or 14 was more diligent in Nine South business, maybe 15 internal to do, at around the 4:00 count, to 15 I could have said something. But I wasn't, 16 verify that he is actually, in fact, not 16 since I wasn't working that post. I didn't 17 returiiiiiiii 17 think nothin of it. 18 : No. Since Nine South is the 18 : But if it says WAB on the 19 only small entity, we try not to - you know - 19 call out list, didn't you just say? So, if the 20 like, it can be -. You know, we can drop the 20 people that got Reyes at 8:00 in the morning, 21 ball. Like, if I'm control, you are internal, 21 produced him to R&D, or whomever that he goes 22 we can drop the ball because we assume that 22 to when it says WAB, wouldn't the assumption be 23 Nine South already know. Because they are, you 23 that he's not actually returning? 24 know, those men and women that work up there, 24 Yes. 25 they already know. 25 : Was that the case? 99 100 1 : If it says WAB, he's definitely 1 like, a transport, if something was cancelled. 2 not comin back. 2 Yeah. 3 : And that should be known? 3 : But if by, for instance, 4 Definitely not coming back. So, if someone 4 he leaves at 8:00, he's WAB, by 2:00 p.m., if 5 says, WAB, if it said WAB, but we believed he 5 he's not back, that means, certainly, he got 6 was going to court, and there's always the 6 off on the transport. Does that mean, 7 possibility that he could return. Is that an 7 basically, by 2:00 p.m., if somebody that's WAB 8 argument to be had? If it says WAB. 8 is not back they're certainly not returning? 9 : I mean, once in a blue, yes. 9 Yes. 10 Some of them do come back. Either one thing or 10 : Okay. And in this case, 11 another, maybe they was very disrespectful to 11 if someone is WAB, would control have any - or 12 the Marshal, or maybe the court said never 12 internal - have anything to do with, at the 13 mind. Sometimes, it does happen. 13 4:00 p.m. count, contacting SHU, to make sure 14 : But that's, like, is that 14 that they're aware that that WAB person, in 15 more of like, a one in a thousand type chance? 15 fact, isn't coming back? 16 : I uess. 16 : No. 17 Yeah. So, it's -- 17 : No? Okay. Okay. Do you 18 I'm not too -. 18 know about any other -. I know we went over 19 -- extremely unlikely, if 19 these counts that, you know, we said we believe 20 it saiiiiiiithat he's coming back. Correct? 20 are incorrect because the numbers weren't 21 : Yeah. But it does happen. 21 right, that the count slips. Are you aware of 22 Some people, you let go, I thought you was 22 any other count slips that were incorrect 23 leavin . Oh something happened. 23 around this time period? 24 : Okay. Now, I've heard 24 Not to my knowledge. 25 that something happens if it has to do with, 25 : No? Are you aware of EFTA00113307 101 102 1 rounds not being conducted and being falsified 1 because I need m 'ob. 2 prior to Au ust 10th, 2019? 2 : Sure. So, point being, 3 : Not to my knowledge. 3 though, do you know if people were falsifying 4 : Had you heard that the 4 rounds? 5 rounds were not being conducted in the SHU on 5 : Not to my knowledge. 6 August 9th and 10th of 2019? 6 : No? Okay. Are you aware 7 : Not to my knowledge. 7 - speaking of cameras - if the MCC SHU cameras 8 : Even after the fact, you 8 were workin on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 9 hadn't heard that, in the news and all that? 9 : I believe they was working. 10 : The news was saying a lot of 10 : You believe they were 11 bad thin s. 11 workiS 12 : And what about when you 12 : I believe all the cameras were 13 said you go get beers with your buddies, even 13 workin back then. 14 hear it, don't you? Didn't you guys talk about 14 : All right. And then, had 15 the fact that the rounds and the counts weren't 15 you heard that they weren't working? 16 conducted in the SHU? 16 : Through the media. When they 17 : Whenever I get stuck to work 17 was talkin about the cameras didn't work. 18 Nine South, those cameras might not see what 18 : And what is your 19 the inmates do, but I know they definitely see 19 understanding of -? Do you believe that they 20 what I do. 20 were working, and if we're not able to get 21 : Okay. 21 recordings, do you believe that someone deleted 22 : Oh, my fault. I apologize. 22 those recordings? 23 The cameras definitely don't see what the 23 : No. I don't think anybody that 24 inmates do. But they sure see everything I do. 24 bold. 25 So, when I'm up there, I try to stay on point, 25 No? 103 104 1 No. 1 : I believe so. But I don't work 2 : Have you heard anything 2 Nine .2mIlls_a2_1_2.n't tell you. 3 about deletion of cameras, or people knocking 3 Had you heard anything 4 cameras offline, or -- 4 about him not being in his assigned cell? 5 No. 5 : No. 6 -- them not recording? 6 : No. Do you know if cell 7 No. 7 searches were being conducted in the SHU in 8 : No? 8 July and Au ust of 2019? 9 : Because we don't have -. We 9 : They should have been. Every 10 don't have access as correctional staff, to -. 10 day, vie have to do -. If you work in any post, 11 : Who would have access, to 11 Nine South to any housing units, you're 12 be able to knock cameras offline? Or stop them 12 supposed to conduct five shakedowns per shift. 13 13 : Is that five shakedowns, 14 I uess the -- 14 though, during the day and night watch? 15 -- from recording. 15 : Dav watch. 16 -- I guess the higher ups. So, 16 But not -- 17 I'm not too sure. 17 Evening watch. 18 Would the Comtech? 18 But not morning watch, 19 : I mean, yeah, a possibility. 19 right? 20 : Okay. But you're not 20 Not morning watch. 21 reall sure? 21 : So, you're supposed to do 22 : I'm not really sure, sir. 22 five durin the day, and five during the night? 23 Okay. Do you know if 23 : Yeah. 24 Epstein was in his assigned cell on August 24 And do you know if they 25 10th, 2019? 25 were being conducted in the SHU? EFTA00113308 105 106 1 : To my knowledge -- 1 : I don't know nothing about 2 : Yeah. But you don't know 2 that. 3 3 Did Epstein take his own 4 -- I believe (Indiscernible 4 life? 5 *01:24:48). 5 I believe so. 6 -- anything about them 6 : And did Epstein act alone 7 not being conducted, though? 7 in takino his own life? 8 : No. 8 : I believe so. 9 Okay. When you worked in 9 Did you have any 10 the SHU. here they conducted? 10 involvement with Epstein's death? 11 Yes. 11 No sir. 12 : Okay. Do you have 12 : What would have prevented 13 knowledge of Epstein placing a telephone call 13 Epstein's death? 14 in the SHU on August 9th, 2019? 14 : I'm really not too sure. Once 15 No. 15 an inmate or a person has their mind made up, 16 No? 16 they don't tell you when they're going to do 17 : I'm not sure about that. 17 it. They just do it. This individual, I don't 18 : Had you heard that one? 18 know. I know that he was facing a serious 19 : No sir. 19 crime. I don't know if he wanted to do that on 20 : No. What do you know 20 his own, or he was protecting somebody. I 21 about someone else taking Epstein's life? 21 don't know. But to try to prevent, I think we 22 : I don't know nothing about 22 kind of tried everything that we wanted, but he 23 that. 23 would have robabl have succeeded somehow. 24 What do you know about 24 : Okay. What actions 25 other's assisting with taking Epstein's life? 25 should have been taken to prevent his death? 107 108 1 : I think they should have kept 1 Yes. 2 him in suicide watch, and had somebody watch 2 : Okay. What are some of 3 him at all times. But I mean -- 3 the systematic problems inside the MCC - and 4 What about -- 4 specifically, the SHU - that allowed for 5 6 7 8 IC -- I'm just a GS-8. -- what about ensuring that he had his cell mate? Oh, that, too. 5 Epstein to die? 6 7 8 Lack of staff. : Lack of staff. Is it all 9 : What about ensuring that 9 Lack of staff. 10 rounds and counts were being conducted? 10 -- okay. 11 Yes. 11 : Yeah. And how could I -? Right 12 : Anything else? 12 now, we have a problem with lack of staff. The 13 : That's it. 13 staff that they are hiring right now is fall on 14 : All right. And what 14 the money. This job is not the first job that 15 about, like, placing him on, like, Ten South, 15 they apply for. It's just the first job that 16 or G-tier? 16 called. So, with that knowledge, everybody 17 : Yeah. On G-tier, G-tier is 17 needs a job. You need to pay your bills, 18 pretty spacious. But if he wanted, you know, 18 right? You need to pay food. You know, you 19 to hurt himself, he could have did it there, 19 need to take care of your family, your wife, 20 too. 20 your kids, your husband, et cetera. So, when 21 But does -- 21 this job calls, they go. When you hear about 22 : He could have did it on Ten 22 the feds, you'd be, like, wow, the feds called 23 South too. 23 me for an interview. This is a top-paying job. 24 -- yeah. But they're 24 Everybody believes it. It's not the top of the 25 more closely monitored than the SHU. Correct? 25 food chain. Especially not now. In New York, EFTA00113309 109 110 1 the rent is going up. Everything is going up. 1 the place, they're going to have to 2 So, this job is really just another job. It's 2 (Indiscernible *01:29:23) the money a little 3 not a career anymore. It's a job. You pay -. 3 bit, ma be vie et better quality. 4 It's a job. So, a lot of the men and women, 4 : Have things improved 5 they come, they see the headaches that we go 5 since Au ust of 2019? 6 through. And they look at their paycheck, and 6 : No. 7 then, they look at the headaches that they go 7 You don't think they 8 through at home. Because when you get your 8 have? 9 mandated every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, 9 No. 10 Saturday, and Sunday, at first, your wife or 10 : That's a shame to hear. 11 your husband believes it's good. The money is 11 Well, speaking of, so that we can lock down 12 coming in. But after a couple of months, your 12 this Fernandez thing, just to leave, this is - 13 wife or your husband will start believing that 13 I was just explaining it to you - but this is 14 you are cheating. Because, like, this, you 14 actually -. So, here, is 15 know, we're law enforcement. All law 15 actual report. It's from He 16 enforcement cheat, right? What people believe. 16 was the OIC SHU, the SHU OIC at the time. And 17 So, a lot of individuals that I talk to, they 17 it says that the incident occurred on 8/9/2019, 18 said they're not losing their wife, so they 18 at 1:40 p.m. "On August 9th, 2019 at 19 quit. Or they moved on. Found another job for 19 approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS IIIIIIII, while 20 the headache. So, we always going to lose 20 assigned as the Special Housing Unit officer, 21 staff because the headache don't outweigh the 21 proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting 22 reward. 22 room, as I walked towards the door, I observed, 23 : Juice isn't worth the 23 through the visiting room door, inmate 24 squeeze? 24 Fernandez attempting to garb an unknown item 25 Yeah. And if they want to fix 25 from his visitor. Once I made Fernandez reach 111 112 1 to grab the item, I called the door and called 1 keeps coming back to SHU. Because that's where 2 for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the 2 you place all our inmates that has an incident 3 visiting room, I gave inmate Fernandez a direct 3 report. 4 order to walk -". Gave him an out of -. "To 4 : Yeah. 5 walk out of the visiting room, to conduct a 5 : So, like this, he's coming back 6 visual search. Inmate Fernandez compiled," Oh, 6 to Nine South Indiscernible *01:31:40). 7 "Complied, and a visual search was conducted. 7 : Okay. So then, when we 8 The Operations Lieutenant was contacted, and 8 see this, inmate Fernandez at 3:15 p.m., that 9 inmate Fernandez was removed from the unit." 9 same da laced on dry cell from ZA. 10 So, with this knowledge, when should have he 10 : Yeah. 11 been of the SHU? 11 Is that the time he 12 : He should have been - right 12 should have been -? 13 now, since he's in SHU - they probably believed 13 : Yes. 14 that he was coming back to SHU. Because where 14 : All right. So, at 3:15 15 is the oin to ut him at? You know -- 15 is the time that he should have actually been, 16 : Yeah. 16 then, laced - keyed out of the SHU? 17 : -- it says, Seven North. So, 17 : Yes. 18 basically, he's going to go to SHU soon. So, 18 Okay. 19 they probably took him downstairs. It says 19 : Unless they was putting him on 20 (Indiscernible *01:31:18). It says, the unit 20 dry cell in SHU. 21 says Seven North, and you said he was -- 21 Well, this one says dry 22 : Yeah. 22 cell from ZA. 23 M. —Nine South visitation room. 23 : Yeah. 24 Oh, okay, okay. Now, I see it. Where is that? 24 : So, this is when he was - 25 Yeah. So, Nine South probably means that he 25 . So, here. So, I mean -. EFTA00113310 113 114 1 MR. : So, if you just look at this 1 was going back to SHU, yes. They could have 2 (Indiscernible *01:32:12). He was already in 2 just left him in SHU. Because they believed he 3 the SHU. 3 was comm a back. 4 : Yeah. He was already in the 4 Well, that's at 1:40. 5 SHU. 5 Yeah. 6 And so, this one, we've 6 When he goes down to 7 got to - we didn't highlight that. But so, 7 medical. If he's at medical -- 8 this one, IM Fernandez on dry cell, with staff 8 : Oh, we don't come out -- 9 watch and R&D. 3:15 p.m. That's when it 9 -- and then, from -- 10 happened. 10 -- from medical. 11 : Yeah. 11 -- what's that? 12 : So, at 3:15 p.m. then, 12 : Medical is just -. Medical is 13 I'm assuming, not 1:40, but at 3:15 p.m., 13 just a, it was, like, okay, I call you up to 14 that's when he should have been keyed out of 14 come pick up an inmate, from my housing unit, 15 the SHU and keyed into R&D? 15 you take him down to medical. I'm not going to 16 : Yes. 16 go on the con uter and take him off my unit. 17 All right. And that goes 17 : Yeah. So, what I'm 18 back to, would have been the person in 18 asking, though, is, if he went -. In this 19 control? 19 instance, if he did that, would they first take 20 : Yeah. 20 him to medical, and then place him on dry cell 21 : All right. Would it -- 21 in the R&D? 22 : But if they believed -- 22 : No. The PA will probably come 23 : -- if he's going from 23 up to talk to him, but otherwise, they wouldn't 24 medical, though -- 24 take him down to medical. 25 : -- but if they believed that he 25 Okay. And so, would this 115 116 1 notification been made on the radio for control 1 : Yes. 2 to even know at 3:15 p.m. Fernandez was being 2 : All right. So, it 3 placed from ZA to R&D? 3 wouldn't be the Ops Lieutenants? 4 : No. 4 : No. 5 : So, control may not have 5 It should be the SHU? 6 even known to key him out. Correct? 6 : SHU. 7 Yes. 7 And specifically, should 8 So, it doesn't even mean 8 it have been, if knows that he's going 9 that, necessarily, would have contacted 9 onto dry cell, should have been that 10 and told. Whose responsibility would it have 10 individual or anyone in the SHU? 11 been to key him out, at that point? If a 11 IIIIIIII: Now, , if he were 12 lieutenant -- 12 assigned, where he says assigned as not - SHU 13 Now, if -- 13 house unit officer - yeah. He's called control 14 -- ordered this? 14 and be like o -- 15 -- if, if a lieutenant ordered 15 : So, should have 16 this, Nine South should have called control and 16 done that? 17 said, hey, I got an inmate taken off my count. 17 I got one. 18 Because -- 18 : Okay. 19 20 21 ri anybod else know. Okay. they should know before 19 20 21 count. : I got one that's coming off the : Okay. You mind just 22 : So, even if the OIC told 22 initialiniiiiiidating that? 23 - or the SHU - told the Ops Lieutenant, and the 23 MR. : How should soon should a 24 Ops Lieutenant was aware, the SHU should have 24 notification have been made? 25 still contacted control and told them? 25 : During the course of the day, EFTA00113311 117 118 1 sometimes we have (Indiscernible *01:34:55), 1 have came? 2 and then, with the phone calls, you basically 2 It should have came, you know, 3 (Indiscernible *01:34:55). You have to have an 3 an hour after -. Depending on how Nine South 4 incident i ii prt (Indiscernible *01:35:02). 4 is moving. Because Nine South is - Nine South 5 MR. What's (Indiscernible 5 is lacking staff. We won't have a 6 *01:35:15)? How long do they normally have to 6 (Indiscernible *01:35:58) of the full staff. 7 make that phone call? They'll know, hey, 7 So, that means, if they're doing visitations, 8 listen, (Indiscernible *01:35:21)? What do you 8 or if they're doing showers, if they're doing 9 know about (Indiscernible *01:35:26)? 9 medical, if they're doing psychology, they're 10 Mil (Indiscernible *01:35:29). 10 doing all library cards and all this other 11 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:35:31) at 11 crap, the are Yeah. 12 3:15. 12 MR. : But here's the thing, you 13 : Yeah. 13 said, the fourth count -- 14 MR. : When -. 14 MS Yeah. 15 : Well, it happened at 15 MR. : -- there's a 4:00 p.m. count 16 1:40. 16 coming up, should they have made notification 17 MR. : 1:40. 17 for tiiiiiiii? 18 1:40. 18 : Yes. And should have made it 19 : And placed on dry cell -- 19 way before, before they forgot, because you 20 MR. : But that -- 20 can't - the longer you take, the more you could 21 • -- (Indiscernible 21 forget. 22 *01:35:38 22 MR. : Should they have made 23 MR. 'I'll': -- according to that memo, it 23 notification before the 10:00 p.m. count? 24 looks like that he was placed in dry cell at 24 : Yes. They should have made 25 3:15. Before what time should that phone call 25 notification a half an hour to - oh, no, a half 119 120 1 an hour to ten minutes after the inmate 1 ME ' Yes. 2 (Indiscernible *01:36:35). 2 MR. : If they did the 10:00 p.m. 3 Just not immediately, 3 count, as they were supposed to, would they 4 correct? 4 have realized there was an inmate missing? 5 : Yeah. Because the longer it S Il% Yes. 6 takes, the busier you are, you forget 6 MR. : Now, I don't know if -. I 7 something. Maybe you forget your keys. You 7 have somethin se arate, all together. 8 know? 8 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 9 : We were informed that, 9 Please. iiiiiist searching. 10 once it's happening, the movement, that 10 MR. : As being control, right? Is 11 notification should be made. Moving inmate 11 there video monitors for different units? 12 from SHU to R&D dry cell. 12 Yes. 13 : Yeah. 13 MR. : Was there a monitor for the 14 : Isn't that correct? 14 SHU? 15 : Yes. 15 : Yes. But there's a small -. 16 : It's only, it shouldn't 16 There's a camera that's way up on the wall. 17 occur. It should happen immediately. 17 MR. : Is it, like, a corner -- 18 Definitely not more than 15 to 30 minutes 18 Yes. 19 later. Correct? 19 MR. : -- angle? 20 Yes. 20 It's a corner angle. 21 : Okay. 21 MR. : Let me look, if I had, like, 22 MR. : Now, if the SHU staff at 4:00 22 a picture of it. I don't have a picture of 23 p.m. did the count, as they were supposed to, 23 that. But -. 24 would they have realized the fact that there 24 I may. But you can start 25 was an inmate missing? 2S asking your questions about it, though. EFTA00113312 121 122 1 MR. : When they do, when you're in 1 looking up - not just for that night, different 2 control, right, and they're calling you, like, 2 nights - looking up and looking at the camera, 3 different units are calling you with the count 3 and looking at the C.O.s and realizing that, 4 numbers, do you look up to see if they're 4 hey, listen, they're giving me the count, but I 5 actuaiiiiiiiig the counts? 5 know iiiiiiiien't done the count? 6 : Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. 6 : No. I'm not -. I mean, we 7 Because we have work that we have to do, too. 7 relied on trust. I mean, this is a part of 8 Now, the person that's taking the phone calls, 8 your job function. Your major job function. 9 that's what you're doing. You're taking the 9 So, we believe that you should have had to have 10 phone calls, verifying the count with the El. 10 done the count, because Nine South has two 11 The person that's sitting next to you, that's 11 officers. So, they count themselves. Any unit 12 in control with me, he or she may be doing 12 that has two officers, they count themselves. 13 their paperwork, because there's paperwork to 13 Everybody else, they're going to need backup 14 be done. We have to count keys. We have to 14 because there's only one officer per unit. 15 count radios. We have to do all the equipment 15 MR. : Have you ever heard of counts 16 inside the control center. So, if I'm doing 16 and rounds not being done at the MCC? 17 count, that person may be doing the equipment 17 : I mean, you know, you heard the 18 checks. And or popping doors. 18 rumors from the news. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you recall looking 19 MR. : From the what? 20 up at the camera that night, to see if they 20 From the news. 21 were actuall doing the counts that night? 21 MR. : Other than this incident, 22 : I can't really recall because I 22 have you heard any rumors of any C.O.s saying, 23 was helping out with the count, too. Different 23 hey, listen, I'm too tired, I'm not doing the 24 units. 24 counts, or I'm not doing the rounds, or one of 25 MR. : Do you recall, at any point, 25 them might be, they're just not doing the 123 124 1 counts or the rounds? 1 specifically if there were any conversations 2 : No, no, no. I haven't heard 2 that were had with either the Ops Lieutenant, 3 that. 3 or the SHU, about, like, ghost counting, or 4 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 4 about when you wrote in - if it was, in fact, 5 pre-filling the rounds and the count sheets? 5 you, who wrote on those two count slips - or 6 Meaning, they come on shift, they fill out the 6 anything at all, that you might help, for us, 7 forms, keep it, and sign at the, you know, 7 to clear u' What was done -- 8 initial it, fill it all out, and just pass it 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 on. 9 -- and when it was done. 10 No. 10 Okay. 11 MR. : When the time comes. 11 : Because again, in our 12 No. 12 mind, the count slips are inaccurate. You were 13 MR. : You never heard of any C.O.s 13 going based upon what was said on the, you 14 doing an like that? 14 know, on the El. And their count slips were 15 : No. Because I definitely don't 15 matching that El. So, for me, I'm still very 16 do that. 16 confused on when that 9S+1 on the R&D, and when 17 MR. : That's it for now. 17 the plus one on the ZA count slips were 18 : Anything we're missing? 18 actually done. I know you're saying that you 19 : You asked me everything -- 19 believe that they were done at the time of the 20 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 20 10:00 p.m. count, but being that it doesn't 21 -- and the kitchen sink. 21 look like it was appeared to have been caught 22 : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 22 until after the - or during - the 12:00 a.m. 23 yeah. No. It's all -. Can we just ask you, 23 count, I'm just still not convinced of that. 24 please, if you can remember anything more about 24 So -- 25 the 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. count, 25 : Right. EFTA00113313 125 126 1 -- because to you, you 1 And do you believe that, 2 said you believe it was done at the 10:00 p.m., 2 then, would be why the Ops Lieutenant would 3 you don't know for a fact. Correct? 3 have caught the fact that there is one person 4 No not for a fact. 4 assigned to the SHU, who was actually in R&D, 5 : You just, being that it 5 and would have corrected the El? 6 shows on the 10:00 p.m., but you don't think 6 : Yes. I believe, I believe that 7 that you would have gone back to an earlier 7 if there was a little bit more communication, 8 count -- 8 we probabl would have caught it a lot faster. 9 No. 9 : Well, it sounds like you 10 -- is what you're saying? 10 knew it. I'm just - now, I'm just super 11 Even if someone was, it was caught during a 11 confused if that's when it happened, why the 12 count thatyou still had the paperwork to? 12 El, you have a count slip that doesn't say on 13 No. 13 the El. 14 l= : Do you know what I'm 14 : Like I said, if, you know, if 15 saying? Like, even if there's one count later, 15 I'm correct I should have changed it. 16 which there's only two hours after that count, 16 You should have changed 17 you don't think you would have, then, gone back 17 the El? 18 to that count that you did just two hours 18 : I should have just changed it, 19 later and ut that plus one on there? 19 regardless. 20 No. 20 : Okay. 21 : No? All right. So, 21 : Without doing the ghosting. 22 you're - to you, though - you're pretty 22 : Okay. 23 positive you would have done it during the 23 : I should have changed it. 24 10:00Iiiiiiii 24 That's why I said I think I dropped the ball on 25 : Yes. 25 that one. 127 128 1 All right. So, you 1 that because I don't think that there was 2 believe it was a ghost count? 2 anything for you to catch. You didn't know. 3 Yeah. 3 But I could be mistaken on that, and that's 4 : And you believe, though, 4 where I'm just really hoping that, if you can 5 in order for it to be a ghost count, an Ops 5 think about it, and you can kind of put 6 Lieutenant would have said it's okay to ghost 6 together, oh, yeah, that is what happened, or, 7 count? 7 okay, that's what - that's how it transpired, 8 Yeah. 8 that's how it went down. If you could just 9 And the only Ops 9 contact us, myself or Lyeson, and just let us 10 Lieutenant that was on there was 10 know. That would be greatly -. We would so 11 , and she didn't make the change until the 11 appreciate it because when we do these things, 12 12:00 .m. count. 12 we got to be accurate. The highest levels of 13 Yeah. 13 the government are going to get - or look at 14 : And do you see where that 14 these things. And being that these counts are 15 doesn't add up? 15 off, that's kind of a big thing. 16 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 16 : Yeah. 17 : So, in thinking about 17 : Especially with regard 18 that, is there anything you think that maybe 18 to, you know, with the night before, and the 19 you're a little bit inaccurate on? 19 mornin of Epstein -- 20 : I mean, if, you know, like, I'm 20 : Yeah. 21 just wish that I, like, caught it and changed 21 : -- being found. And so, 22 it a lot earlier. You know, I should have just 22 we just want to make sure that we're being as 23 changed it. 23 accurate as possible. I'll give you a card so 24 : Yeah. And again, my main 24 that, if you can think of anything, you can 25 thing is, I think you're beating yourself up on 25 certainly contact me. And we can modify EFTA00113314 129 130 1 whatever it is that needs to be modified, or do CERTIFICATE 2 a supplemental. All right. Any questions for I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 us? represent an accurate transcript of the 4 : No sir. electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 No? All right. Well, we before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 can't thank ou enough for your time. Inspector General in the matter of: 7 : Mm-hmm. Thank you, too. 8 All right. Interview of 9 : And I hope I helped a little 10 bit. 11 MR. : Yes. 12 Yes. Thank you, sir. Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber 13 Appreciate you. God Bless you. I'm going to 14 turn the recorder off now. It is certainly 15 4:19 p.m. This is , Senior 16 Special Agent with DOJ/OIG, and I'm turning off 17 the recorder. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113315