EFTA00113460

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF MARK EPSTEIN OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Phone: 3 4 1 MR. The recorder has started. 1 2 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 MS. .• 3 with the Department of Justice, Office 3 4 of Inspector General. Today is Wednesday, 4 MR. EPSTEIN: And when you stated, my name 5 September 22, 2021. The time is 10:29 a.m. We 5 Mark is M-A-R-K. Not with a C., a K. 6 are here at the New York Field Office, at 6 MR. : Thank you for taking the time 7 Office of Inspector General. Present is Mr. 7 to talk to us today. 8 Mark Epstein, DO] 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 9 Senior Special Attorney Agent , and 9 MR. : lust for the record, you are 10 myself. We are conducting an interview with 10 , Mr. Jeffrey Epstein's brother. 11 Mr. Mark Epstein in regards to Jeffrey 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 12 Epstein's investigation, of his death. I'm 12 MR. : And I understand that 13 going to introduce myself for the recording, 13 basically, you reached out through attorney 14 and I'm going to state my last name also spell 14 , you reached out to us, and you stated 15 it out. My name is Special Agent 15 that there was a few things you wanted to share 16 . D-A-N-I-E-L. 16 with the OIG. 17 MR. Senior Special Agent 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 18 with the U.S Department of 18 MR. : Go ahead. You can go ahead. 19 Justice Office of the Inspector General. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 20 . 20 MR. : Let me just ask some, 21 MR. : (J .y 21 like, just, or ask to maybe see his license, 22 MR. EPSTEIN: . E-P-S-T-E-I- 22 just so we can verify -- 23 N. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Attorney Richmond, can you 24 MR. : -- if you don't want to 25 introduce yourself? 25 ask him for his date of birth. (Indiscernible EFTA00113460 S 6 1 *00:01:46) 1 I first heard of Jeffrey's death, I just 2 MR. : Yeah. Can we verify? 2 assumed that it was a suicide, because it was 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Sure. 3 reported as such, and that time, I had no 4 MR. : Or you can just ask your 4 reason to doubt it. And I just respected his 5 birthday, date of birth. 5 decision to take himself out. But then, as 6 MR...eah. 6 things progressed, and when more information 7 MR. : It's one or the other. 7 came out, it looks like, if you just looked at 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, it's only my driver's 8 the information, there's no way in the world 9 license. 9 you would say it was a suicide. The first 10 MR. : Mr. Mark Epstein has shown me 10 thing being the autopsy. The autopsy was 11 a photo, driver's license, and it has his 11 conducted the next day. It was conducted by 12 picture on it, and it states his name on it. 12 the city pathologist. And I was right, I was 13 Just for the record, here is my credentials. 13 able to iiiiiiiathologist to witness this, and 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 14 had Dr. Barton (Phonetic Sp. 15 MR. : I'm a Special Agent 15 *00:03:00). I don't know if you know Dr. 16 with the DOJ/OIG. 16 Barton, biiiiiiican't get a -- 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 17 MS. : He's the former Chief 18 MR. : And these are my 18 Medical Examiner of the city of New York. 19 credentials. Senior Special Agent -- 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 20 MS. : So, he went back to his 21 MR. 21 office because he was hired by Mark to review, 22 You can go now. 22 and be present, at the autopsy. 23 MR. : Go ahead. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Normally, if I hire a 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. As I mentioned 24 forensic pathologist to review the autopsy, he 25 before, before you came, I told them that, when 25 has the right to just stand there and watch. 7 8 1 And then, we can get the body, afterwards, to 1 MS. : Just to clarify. We found 2 do a second autopsy, if needed. But because of 2 out, through the media, they were going to make 3 who Barton is, they did whatever he requested 3 that change. So, we called the Medical 4 them to do with the autopsy. So, there was no 4 Examiner's Office, asking how come you haven't 5 need for a second autopsy. Barton, also, has 5 notified the family, and what is the central 6 been on the Special Commission, investigating 6 reason for changing this? We interviewed them 7 prison deaths, since the Attica riots in 1970. 7 for about, hmm, an hour. And we discovered 8 So, he's been doing this for a long time. 8 that they really didn't have much of a basis. 9 There's no better authority in prison 9 But everybody was just closing the 10 deaths than Barton. And the city 10 investigation. And when I persisted, is when I 11 pathologist came out with Dr. Barton, and her 11 learned the camera on the floor, where Mr. 12 determination was, she could not call this a 12 Epstein's cell was, had been corrupted. And no 13 suicide. There was too many questionable 13 one had actually viewed that camera. 14 things, you know, like the broken bones in his 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, one of the questions 15 neck. And Barton confirmed that, he also, 15 about the camera on the tier, I don't know, 16 could not to call this a suicide. It was much 16 there's some pictures of, you know, we're 17 more like a homicide. Plus, there were other 17 walking through the tier, and (Indiscernible 18 wounds on his body. I'm, like, I have pictures 18 *00:05:08) all the cameras, right? That camera 19 I could show you. And then, when we got the 19 wasn't working. So, one of the questions I 20 death certificate, you need the death 20 have is, when did that camera stop working? 21 certificate in order to recover his body, the 21 When was the last time that camera actually 22 cause of death was pending. You know, pending 22 took a picture, you know, and have they 23 for an investigation. And then, a few days 23 determined why that camera wasn't working? 24 later, the Chief Medical Examiner of New York 24 Were the wires cut? 25 declares it a suicide. 25 Was it unplugged, or, you know, why was EFTA00113461 9 10 1 that camera not working? There is an answer to 1 not. But for me, the lights went off, I said, 2 that. You know, and I am going to get it. I 2 either this is the stupidest guy on the planet, 3 had, I could start showing some pictures, but 3 or, if Jeffrey was killed, the killer was 4 to keep going on, you know, they did, they 4 already on the tier. So, it's just things that 5 swabbed - under autopsy report - they swabbed 5 might be come into the tier to kill him, I 6 his fingers for DNA evidence, in case somebody 6 mean, there's too many witnesses, how do you 7 was there. Was that ever checked? I never saw 7 get somebody in or out? But if he was killed, 8 the results of that DNA testing. You know, 8 the killer was already on the tier. 9 nothing has been (Indiscernible *00:05:50) for 9 So, for him to make the statement that no 10 that. 10 one went in or out, that convinced him it was a 11 And one of the things that lit up my mind 11 suicide. I mean, that's like a, I think we 12 on top of this, one of the big things is that, 12 agree, it was like an amateur mistake in the 13 Attorney General Barr made a statement, saying 13 investigations, because there were a number of 14 that he viewed the camera that was outside of 14 people inside. Right? Well, let me pull up 15 the tier, that showed the door, and the guards, 15 something to show you. 16 as that's directly right between, that the 16 MS. Okay. 17 guards were just, you know, jerking off, or 17 MR. : On that note, do you have 18 (Indiscernible *00:06:09) web, or whatever they 18 any information that anyone was actually in his 19 were doing. And he saw that video tape, and he 19 cell? 20 said that, he said that nobody went - that he 20 MR. EPSTEIN: There was nobody in his 21 personally saw it, which I thought was strange. 21 cell. 22 You know, that nobody went in or out of the 22 MS. : Well, was -. 23 tier. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: There was supposed to be 24 So, that convinced them it was a suicide. 24 somebody in his cell. Because he was 25 You guys are professional investigators. I am 25 supposedly on suicide watch, doing whatever, 11 12 1 and he was released, and there was supposed to 1 MR. : lust for the recording, I'm 2 be somebody in his cell, and there wasn't, and 2 just going to state that Mr. Epstein has his 3 he was taken out. He was alone that night, in 3 own laptop, and he is providing us -. He is 4 his cell. And so, other, like, just 4 just going to explain the pictures to us. 5 evidentiary things, they report that he was 5 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 6 found unresponsive in his cell. And then was 6 MR. : In your custody. 7 taken to the hospital. He wasn't found 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Also, in the autopsy 8 unresponsive. He was found dead. Okay? 8 9 Jeffrey was dead for a minimum of two hours 9 MS. : And the picture is from the 10 before they found him. And I will show you how 10 autopsy. 11 we know that. 11 MR. : From the autopsy. 12 MS. : Also, talk about the 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. They also 13 description of the (Indiscernible *00:07:45). 13 found, you know, three broken bones in his 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A 14 neck. Which is extremely rare to have one 15 whole bunch of things. I got -. I have a list 15 broken bone, when you do what's called a soft 16 of the number of the photos. I left it at 16 hanging. You have, like, Robin Williams hung 17 home, unfortunately, but I will pull them up, 17 himself with a bathrobe thing. With the belt 18 and have a look. 18 thing. Those are soft hangings. You usually 19 MR. : Now, are you going to 19 don't break bones, and he had three breaks. 20 show us why you know that he was dead for at 20 Which is one of the reasons they thought it was 21 least two hours? 21 more like a homicide. If you -. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. 22 MR. : So, what we're looking at 23 MR. : Okay. 23 is, do you know which bones we're talking 24 MR. EPSTEIN: I'm going to get to that 24 about? 25 picture. As soon as I can. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: It's the hyoid bone. EFTA00113462 13 14 1 Something like the hyoid, is what it's called. 1 MR. : Really? 2 MR. : And did they ever -- 2 MS. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: And it really isn't -. 3 MR. : (Indiscernible 4 MR. : discuss anything about 4 *00:09:28 ? 5 chest compressions? Would that potentially 5 MS. (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 6 have happened during CPR? 6 MR. Oh, for the statement of 7 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 7 information in? 8 MS. : No. 8 MS. That was just released 9 MR. EPSTEIN: No. This is the neck. 9 (Indiscernible *00:09:33). And announced by 10 MS. : Chest compressions are 10 the (Indiscernible *00:09:39). 11 lower. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Do you get involved with 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Chest compressions. 12 murder investigations? Is that part of the 13 It can break ribs. Not the higher. 13 normally? I mean, do you have, like, any 14 MS. : So. 14 forensic experience on that? 15 MR. EPSTEIN: It felt pretty useful. See, 15 MR. : So, our investigation 16 this is the camera that wasn't working. 16 pertains to the death of -- 17 MR. : Right. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: All right. 18 MR. EPSTEIN: That would show him 18 MR. : Jeffrey. 19 (Indiscernible *00:09:09). 19 (Indiscernible *00:09:59). 20 MR. And they provide you with 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. One thing I'll show 21 all of this? 21 you now, before we get to it is that the only 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 22 way they was trying to say that, well, he put a 23 MR. Okay. 23 noose on his neck, and sort of jumped off the 24 MS. (Indiscernible *00:09:24) 24 top bunk. That would give him that breaks, or 25 releases. 25 it would be harsh. You know, like, if you saw 15 16 1 the Shawshank Redemption, when Brooks kicked 1 to squeeze the tube with no air in it. It 2 himself off the chair, you know, and fall down. 2 said, he's dead for two hours. Why were they 3 That's (Indiscernible *00:10:23), because it 3 trying to make it look like he was alive? 4 has to be harsh like that. The top bunk in 4 Like, these are -. The EMTs - and I would like 5 Jeffrey's cell was filled with his medications 5 to talk to them - it's , and I 6 (Indiscernible *00:10:29). Nobody was on that 6 think it's , them two EMTs. If I 7 bunk. Nobody jumped off that bunk. I'm just 7 recall, they're the EMTs that were actually in 8 looking for the neck pictures. Also, let me go 8 the cell. 9 back one second. Shit, I apologize for not 9 MR. : Okay. 10 having that list. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, just, let me go back 11 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:10:54). 11 one second. Here is another picture of the top 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Uh-huh. Also, what, another 12 bunk. You see, nobody was there. So, I would 13 question I have is, who was in charge in the 13 like to talk to those two guys. 14 prison? Who -? First of all, they moved the 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 body, which you're not supposed to do. And 15 MR. EPSTEIN: This is the noose. Right? 16 supposedly, they photographed the body, you 16 Look at that. When the guards found him, the 17 know, when they find a dead body in prison, 17 guy was quoted as saying that he cut him down. 18 they're not supposed to move it. They're 18 And I think the guard said . The 19 supposed to get the Medical Examiner's Office, 19 guard that found him. He said he cut him down. 20 so they can (Indiscernible *00:11:17) surprise. 20 Yeah. You see the edge of his noose thing? 21 I mean, no matter how you look at it, he was 21 That's a hemmed edge. That wasn't cut. Okay? 22 moved. 22 If this was tied to something, this would be 23 Now, if you saw the photographs, when they 23 wrinkled. It would be marked from there, you 24 took him out of the hospital, he was on a 24 know, like, here, you see, like, creases in 25 gurney, and he was intubated. They were trying 25 this part? There would be something here, EFTA00113463 17 18 1 showing that this was tied to something. Okay? 1 MR. : Okay. 2 Here is another question I have. He was dead 2 Mr. EPSTEIN: Also, there's a question of, 3 when they took him. When they found him. And 3 why was he moved? Because you know, you know 4 he was wearing - and I checked through someone 4 what lividit is? 5 who was there, who said that, I guess, what was 5 MR. : Yes. 6 he wearing in the cell? And he was wearing his 6 MR. : Yes. 7 orange boxer shorts and t-shirt. The prison 7 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, you die, you fall 8 clothing. 8 on your back, your gut turns purple, because 9 MR. : Okay. 9 your blood settles. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: They take his dead body out. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 And it was either, they cut the stuff off of 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Nowi___hewasmoved. So, I 12 him, because I have pictures of the boxer 12 want to find out from what 13 shorts cut. Who dressed the dead body with the 13 position was Jeffrey in when he found him? I 14 hospital gown? Okay. Dead bodies, you cover 14 know the answer to that. Because he was 15 with a sheet. He wasn't going to run down the 15 sitting, like, right by Robin Williams, you 16 hall in the hospital, with his balls flapping 16 know, your ass and the back of your legs are 17 in the wind. He didn't have to hide. So, who 17 going to be broken, you know, if you're leaning 18 -? Who -? Now, I know that when they took him 18 forward, doing it that way, the front of your 19 to the hospital, there were four people in the 19 legs are going to be. You know, so, what 20 room, and somebody had a hand-held video. And, 20 position was he in? After they found him -- 21 like, and they were working down at the 21 MR. : So, you said 22 hospital. Where is that tape? 22 made statements. Which statements are 23 MR. : Okay. 23 (Indiscernible *00:14:28)? 24 MR. : How do you know that? 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, he said he cut him 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I was told that. 25 down. 19 20 1 MR. Where did you get that 1 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I don't. They don't show 2 statement from? 2 me. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: It was in the paper. 3 MS. (Indiscernible *00:14:57) 4 MS. : It was (Indiscernible 4 evidence from that prosecution. 5 *00:14:31). 5 MR. • Right, right. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: That was that published. 6 MS. That would be (Indiscernible 7 MR. Like, recently, or was 7 *00:15:00). 8 that -- 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. At the time, at the 9 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:15:03). 10 time. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: That's his neck. All right? 11 MR. They hadn't received the 11 If I strangle you, now that, number one, does 12 statements from him back in the day? 12 not look like a sheet. It looks more like an 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was quoted at the 13 electric cord, because he had a CPAP machine in 14 time, but, you know, he said, I mean, that's 14 this roomjiliIh_g_electric cord. 15 what he said, he would cut him down and said, 15 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. 16 you fucked up. Or you messed up. You know, 16 MR. EPSTEIN: That does not look like a 17 when the supervisor (Indiscernible *00:14:46), 17 sheet. Plus, if he had a sheet around his 18 he said he messed up, he didn't do the checks. 18 neck, it would be discolored from the 19 Or somethiiiiiiiiiit effect. 19 secretions from his skin. Okay? Now, if I 20 MR. : Okay. 20 strangle you, metaphorically, with an electric 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 21 cord and I let you lie there, okay? You won't 22 MR. : But not, like, an 22 get a groove in your neck, because your 23 official report -- 23 internal cell pressure will flatten your skin 24 MR. EPSTEIN: I dont -- 24 back out. Like, you might get a little 25 MR. -- stating that? 25 abrasion mark, or rub mark, but you won't get a EFTA00113464 21 22 1 groove stuck in your neck. That takes at least 1 don't (Indiscernible *00:16:27). You're not 2 two hours. That's how we know he was dead for 2 going to get marks above your noose. That's -. 3 at least two hours, because of that. Okay? 3 It won't go down. Your neck won't mark above 4 That's incontrovertible. 4 the noose. The noose line or whatever, the 5 MS. : It's not consistent with 5 ligature, whatever was used. 6 what you thou ht was demonstrated as the noose. 6 You know, where these marks above the 7 MR. : Right. 7 line. That means also, if you hang yourself, 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 8 that line goes up towards your ears. You 9 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:15:52) 9 strangle with a garrote, that's the more 10 evidence with (Indiscernible *00:15:53) 10 straight back. I mean, the line goes all the 11 MR. EPSTEIN: He could have been for six 11 way back and that's what to expect. Okay? So, 12 hours. But a minimum of two. That's Dr. 12 here's the closer look. The better look. 13 Barton's, you know, opinion, which I take is 13 That's not the noose, it's not a sheet doing 14 more of (Indiscernible *00:16:04), as opposed 14 that. That's being abraded from that. Also, 15 to it. That's not a sheet. That looks more 15 his eyes. And I'm going to have pictures of 16 like an electric cord. Also, you see these 16 it. When you strangle, you know, the little 17 marks above the groove line? 17 blood vessels in your eyes burst. The -- 18 18 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:17:33). 19 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: -- the tibia, whatever, and 20 MR. EPSTEIN: If you hang yourself, and 20 it's exhibited here. Also, he has a cut on his 21 you put something around your neck, and you 21 arm here. You know, so, you can see the groove 22 hang yourself, okay, it's going to slip up. 22 is in there. That groove is not coming out. 23 It's going to go high on your neck. If 23 What number is that? That may be the list. 24 anything, the skin below that mark is going to 24 Hold on. Let's reboot. 25 be abraded. Or roughed up. Because the nooses 25 MR. : When did you last - quick 23 24 1 question, you mentioned that you heard from 1 suicide. If this was done, somebody who was 2 somebody that they had a handheld video camera 2 put on that ward to do this. The cell doors 3 in the hospital. Who did you hear that from? 3 are electronically locked. He was killed, went 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Somebody over there. 4 back to his cell, and what I also heard is 5 MR. : Do you have a specific name? 5 after the fact, a lot of prisoners are 6 MR. EPSTEIN: No. Okay. This is the 6 transferred off (Indiscernible *00:22:18). So 7 stuff. Where is the little blood vessels 7 someone was planted there to do this. I don't 8 broken, because there's a cut on his lip here. 8 know if he's lost (Indiscernible *00:22:23), 9 Look at that. There's a bruise on the back of 9 find out who was on that ward, you know, that 10 his neck here. Oh, there's another question I 10 was two weeks ractically. 11 had before I forget, is in the paperwork, the 11 MR. : Who told you that someone 12 last guards to see him was Tova Noel and 12 was (Indiscernible *00:22:29)? 13 there's an unnamed guard number one and an 13 MR. EPSTEIN: A journalist. 14 unnamed guard number two (Indiscernible 14 (Indiscernible *00:22:29). He lied. 15 *00:19:43). You see here, it's like as if 15 MR. : Ah. Now, that is 16 there's ligature. This is the autopsy. 16 something we would very much like to follow up 17 Another thing you should be investigating, 17 on (Indiscernible *00:22:41)? Was there any -? 18 assuming he was killed, is who's on the ward; 18 Can you talk to someone about how that would 19 who are the prisoners on the ward? Because I 19 (Indiscernible *00:22:44), or not? 20 was also told, and this was through somebody 20 MR. EPSTEIN: I will ask, if I can get you 21 who has been reliable, through an attorney of 21 the (Indiscernible *00:22:48). 22 somebody who was on the ward, he said that cell 22 MR. MIE: Okay. 23 door (Indiscernible *00:21:47). So, you know, 23 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:22:52) it 24 there is an old saying that anyone can commit 24 was there at night. (Indiscernible *00:23:11). 25 murder, but it takes an artist to commit 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I've also heard that EFTA00113465 28 26 1 there's, like, 20 plus guards that were, like, 1 *00:24:19). He's worked with Steve Bannon, 2 there that, furlough, that haven't worked 2 who's worked with (Indiscernible *00:24:19). 3 since. Indiscernible *00:23:24). 3 Steve Bannon has 16 hours of video tape. 4 MR. : That's the same noose on the 4 (Indiscernible *00:24:27). I know this because 5 floor? 5 my brother said he worked with him. And on 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 6 that day, he said he stopped hanging out with 7 MS. : Absolutely. 7 Trump, when he realized (Indiscernible 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 8 *00:24:37). In the papers, they're reading he 9 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:23:35). 9 stopped hanging out with Trump, and, like, he 10 Back to the tier. 10 fell apart (Indiscernible *00:24:39). It was 11 MR. : Okay. 11 bullshit. Everybody was, like, (Indiscernible 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. That's -. Yeah. 12 *00:24:44). He stopped hanging out with Trump 13 Yeah. That's not cut. It's kind of 13 when he realized Trump was a dick. That's 14 (Indiscernible *00:23:45). And it's not, you 14 exactly what he said. And I think 15 know, I mean, it's pretty standard sizes, I 15 (Indiscernible *00:24:57). All right. And I 16 believe. And this would be discolored from the 16 don't have any proof, but if this was a murder, 17 secretions of his neck, (Indiscernible 17 then the government would probably 18 *00:23:54). Things I will also tell you is 18 (Indiscernible *00:25:05). And I Know, also, 19 that, in 2016 election, my brother didn't tell 19 that hurting somebody else in a federal prison, 20 me why he (Indiscernible *00:24:08). What he 20 that the DEA agent transported to a maximum 21 told me is he said what he knew about 21 security. He's a real bad ass and carried on, 22 (Indiscernible *00:24:10), Trump (Indiscernible 22 and felt even worse. You know, he was brought 23 *00:24:13), because they would have to cancel 23 out to be (Indiscernible *00:25:21). They 24 the election. 24 handcuffed him before they uncuff him, and he 25 My brother is also (Indiscernible 25 was a DEA agent who was getting the credibility 27 28 1 as a criminal, as a bad guy. A troublemaker. 1 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He -- 2 (Indiscernible *00:25:30). So, it's justice 2 MR. : -- explain that. 3 from, you can put people in prison that have 3 MR. EPSTEIN: -- he robs people. He 4 (Indiscernible *00:25:34). 4 probably close to the wealth he has comes from 5 MR. : Okay. 5 the money he didn't pay people. He screwed 6 MR. EPSTEIN: That's (Indiscernible 6 over, over and over again. And he gets - pays 7 *00:25:35). I was told that by somebody. So, 7 them, like, a percentage of what he owes them, 8 yeah. So, also, the thing I wanted to show you 8 they sign non-disclosure agreements. That's 9 here, the reason I - honestly, to be honest 9 how he slides. And everybody knew that. Yeah. 10 with you - I think Trump is behind it. If 10 MR. : All right. 11 someone was closer on the inside told me Trump 11 (VIDEO PLAYS) 12 (Indiscernible *00:25:53), after his death, you 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, this video was from 13 know, someone who knows more about this shit 13 before my brother's death. (Indiscernible 14 than I do. 14 *00:26:49). But wait, I'm going to get to the 15 MR. : Well, when you say that 15 beginning of the part. 16 Trump was a crook, or that your brother said 16 MS. : Some of the information 17 that he (Indiscernible *00:26:00), can you give 17 about that is also in that book that just came 18 more information other than just that? 18 out(Indiscernible *00:27:03), when you were 19 MR. EPSTEIN: No. He didn't tell me that, 19 talking about (Indiscernible *00:27:08). 20 but if you were a legal busines man, you would 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, let me see if I can 21 know that Trump is a crook. Everybody knows 21 (Indiscernible *00:27:12). Oh, he asked them 22 trump is a crook. That's why no legitimate 22 (Indiscernible *00:27:17). All right. So, 23 real estaiiiiiiiiiiwould deal with him. 23 this is before he died. 24 MR. : And when you say, 24 MR. : So, we're looking at -- 25 "Crook," though, can you just kind of - 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I've met Trump. EFTA00113466 29 30 1 MR. • -- President Trump there, 1 MR. DO you remember around 2 as well as a news reporter. 2 when that date would have been? 3 MR. EPSTEIN: O'Reilly. Bill O'Reilly. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. July 8th and 9th or 4 MR. Bill O'Reilly. 4 something. 5 MR. EPSTEIN: (Indiscernible *00:27:54). 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. Do you know when that was 6 MR. EPSTEIN: On a Thursday night. 7 done? 7 MR. : So, 2019? 8 MR. EPSTEIN: It was prior to the death. 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. It was right 9 That was. 9 before his death. So, he called me if he was 10 MR. Prior to the death. 10 in Paris. He called me, just the usual, you 11 MR. EPSTEIN: But, you know, I mean, 11 know, (Indiscernible *00:28:41). You know? 12 personally, I think Trump was jealous that 12 And then, the next day, he, you know, flew 13 people (Indiscernible *00:28:06), and wanted to 13 back. And he was arrested that Friday. 14 take that power. That's the kind of person 14 (Indiscernible *00:28:50). Saturday morning, 15 Trump is. (Indiscernible *00:28:14). You 15 his attorneys called me and told me he was 16 know? 16 arrested. 17 MS. : I noticed that's not your 17 MR. : And how often would you 18 strongest argument. 18 talk with Jeffrey up until then? 19 MR. EPSTEIN: No. It's not my strongest 19 MR. EPSTEIN: We would talk every couple 20 argument. It's, that's an opinion. Okay? But 20 of weeks, or something like that. A week. A 21 this ism strop est argument. 21 month. That, you know, we emailed something. 22 MR. : So, when is the last time 22 Whatever. You know? Just keep trying, and I 23 you spoke with Jeffrey? 23 keep telling him what's happening with the 24 MR. EPSTEIN: The Thursday night before he 24 family stuff, and he would tell me funny 25 was arrested. 25 stories. When - he used to hang out with Woody 31 32 1 Allen, though. So, he would tell me funny 1 MR. Okay. And email? 2 things that Woody Allen said. I guess Woody 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. It's, like, for 3 Allen is 3 instance, I mean, I have the email exchange, 4 MR. : So -- 4 and when he sent me the video clip, that Bannon 5 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, we just amuse 5 had sent him (Indiscernible *00:29:52), you 6 other. Just kee check. 6 know? And I asked him, you know, what was this 7 MR. : I don't know where we 7 for. You know, and he said the (Indiscernible 8 heard this information from, but I was told, I 8 *00:30:00) testimony. I said, you were 9 was informed that you were estranged for, like, 9 subpoenaed? 10 a number of years. Is that not correct? 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: He said, no. (Indiscernible 12 MS. : You hadn't seen him. 12 *00:30:03). He was just, he was doing stuff. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: I haven't seen him. 13 And, you know, he just, he said he, I thought 14 MR. : Okay. 14 (Indiscernible *00:30:09), he thought I would 15 MR. EPSTEIN: My mother died in 2004. Or 15 find it funny. I remember, it was, like, he 16 - yeah -. 2004. Since that time, maybe I saw 16 was had a beer in the video, and I've never 17 him a handful of times. And the last time was 17 seen my brother with a beard before. So, I 18 seven years rior to his death. 18 wrote back. I said, the funniest part is, you 19 MR. : Okay. SO, you hadn't 19 were with a beard. And he wrote back and he 20 seen him for seven years -- 20 said, that you could tell who I was? My 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 21 disguise didn't work? You know, it was just, 22 MR. : -- but you spoke over the 22 it was just banter between two brothers. 23 telephone a number of few weeks? 23 (Indiscernible *00:30:26). 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, yeah. And emailed. 24 MR. : So -. 25 Yeah. Yeah. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: So, that was the last time I EFTA00113467 33 34 1 spoke to him, was that Thursday night before he 1 Florida(Indiscernible *00:31:15). I know 2 was (Indiscernible *00:30:32). 2 Jeffrey was not going to flee. He wasn't flee. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you know 3 (Indiscernible *00:31:19). Not that he would 4 anything about his state of mind leading up to 4 do that anyhow. Because he (Indiscernible 5 5 *00:31:23). And that's what put me on the map. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. I know who he spoke 6 Most people didn't even know Jeff had a 7 to the daiiiiiiiiiie died. 7 brother. 8 MR. : And who did he speak 8 MR. : Okay. 9 with? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: We had a social life 10 MR. EPSTEIN: He spoke to someone who was 10 together. And so, that's where my head, dating 11 close to him. I mean, and they had 11 back, you know, refer to it as a (Indiscernible 12 (Indiscernible *00:30:45). Not a clue they 12 *00:31:36) proctologist. Every journalist on 13 were very surprised that this happened. And 13 the planet would (Indiscernible *00:31:38) to 14 most of his, one of the attorneys gave a 14 try to find some dirt on me, to try to make me 15 (Indiscernible *00:30:50) was publicly saying 15 tell this kind of stuff. (Indiscernible 16 that he spoke to Jeffrey, Jeffrey was very 16 *00:31:45). But yeah, he had two separate 17 upbeat. He also thought he had a good case, 17 lives. And so, bail was denied. And then, he 18 using (Indiscernible *00:30:56) non-prosecution 18 had a bail hearing coming up two days after he 19 agreement he had, from Florida, from years 19 died. 20 back. So, and also, when Jeffrey was first 20 And this time - and he was pretty up, 21 arrested, his attorneys called me and asked me 21 like, you know, his jets, the house, close to 22 if I would, back and help him with his bail. 22 100 million dollars' worth of stuff for the 23 They said it's helpful for other people to 23 bail. The highest bail in the United Sates ever 24 participate in the bail. Because they should- 24 was 100 million dollars. Some South American, 25 have. Put him in the house in 25 Central American, (Indiscernible *00:32:09). 35 36 1 But that's the highest bail they ruled on. 1 MR. -- to (Indiscernible 2 When they were going through the appeal on the 2 *00:32:54) close to the bail? 3 bail, his attorneys called me up and they asked 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 4 me if I would guarantee his entire bail. And 4 MR. And that was two days 5 it has since doubled. And I agreed to it. 5 after he was found? 6 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, no. 7 MR. EPSTEIN: And so, there might have 7 MS. : That's the day -- 8 been a chance he got bail in two days. 8 MR. EPSTEIN: The hearing was supposed to 9 MS. : Right. 9 -. I agree -- 10 MR. EPSTEIN: And then, he would have been 10 MR. : That's right. 11 under house arrest. He would have paid for 11 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I agreed before he was 12 guards. They would have an ankle monitor. 12 dead, but the hearing was supposed to take 13 Camera. Whatever it would take to do this all. 13 place -. Like, he died, I think it was August 14 So, if you - and I think, you know, if he was 14 9th. Or something. The hearing was scheduled 15 going to go take himself out, wait two fucking 15 for, like, 11th or something. There was, like, 16 days. You know, if you got bail, then you at 16 a two-dayliiiiiiiii 17 least, you're home for a year before the trial 17 MR. : And then, do you remember 18 comes up, if nothing else. (Indiscernible 18 how much the bail was? 19 *00:32:46iiiiiiiiiiit make sense. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Close to 100 million. 20 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : It was close to 100? 21 MR. EPSTEIN: If Jeffrey went. I don't 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 22 think Jeffre would do that. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, you did actually 23 MR. just to clarify, you 24 agree to the bail -- 24 mentioned 100 million dollar bail, and you 25 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 25 guaranteed it on top of it. So, that was EFTA00113468 37 38 1 technically 200 million? 1 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Right. And his friend 2 MR. : And you spoke to -. Who is 3 put up some. I don't know how much 3 Katrina Shuliac to Mr. Epstein? 4 David put up. But he was also in the initial 4 MR. EPSTEIN: A friend. 5 pool at first, (Indiscernible *00:33:31) house. 5 MR. : A childhood friend, a long- 6 In Florida. David had also put up some 6 time friend? 7 (Indiscernible *00:33:35). David Michell is 7 MR. EPSTEIN: A number of years. 8 the one who -. The friend. And I heard he was 8 MR. : Were they in a relationship, 9 ou (Indiscernible *00:33:40). 9 or -? 10 MR. : Now, as far as the person 10 MR. EPSTEIN: His exact nature of it, I 11 that he - were you saying that he spoke with 11 don't know, because I didn't know of her. But 12 someone on the telephone, prior to August 9th 12 I know she's been -. I just found out she was 13 or 10th? 13 in the picture a number of years. I believe 14 MR. EPSTEIN: The night -- 14 eight years. 15 MR. : Or something. 15 MR. : In a romantic relationship? 16 MR. EPSTEIN: -- the evening before he 16 MR. EPSTEIN: I believe so. Yeah. 17 died, because it was (Indiscernible *00:33:54), 17 MS. : But you didn't know 18 yeah. 18 confirmation? You had, like -. 19 MR. : And was that a female? 19 MR. EPSTEIN: I can't ask Jeff. 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, it was. 20 MS. : Right. Obviously. 21 MR. : And do you want to say 21 MR. Have you spoken with her? 22 the name of its and ask if that's correct. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 23 MR. Is the name Katrina Shuliac? 23 MR. And did she say that they 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 24 were in a romantic relationship? 25 MR. : Is that who he spoke to? 25 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. (Indiscernible 39 40 1 *00:34:44). 1 MR. Okay. But when you 2 MR. She did? 2 specifically talked about the conversation that 3 MR. EPSTEIN: I believe it to be so, and I 3 she had with Jeffrey, (Indiscernible 4 found pictures. 4 *00:35:18)? 5 MR. And have you seen -? 5 MR. EPSTEIN: That was -. I don't 6 Have you spoken with her since August 9, 2019? 6 remember the exact date. But I think it was 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. Yes. 7 just a few weeks of the death. 8 MR. : Did she tell you what the 8 MR. : Okay. But she didn't 9 conversation, what took place during the 9 tell you anything specifically why he contacted 10 conversation? 10 her, or what they spoke about? 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Just that he was -. He 11 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 12 sounded upbeat, and is that she didn't think he 12 MR. : No. Just that he sounded 13 committed suicide. Because it didn't sound 13 upbeat? 14 like he was oin to do that. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was. Yeah. 15 MR. : But did she say anything 15 That's, like, she made (Indiscernible 16 that they talked about, though? 16 *00:35:41). 17 MR. EPSTEIN: No. I didn't want to get 17 MR. Okay. 18 too personal. And, you know, at the time it 18 MR. : Was she surprised that he 19 was , like, you know, my brother is dead, I 19 called her? 20 (Indiscernible *00:35:08) conversation that I 20 MR. EPSTEIN: I don't -. I don't know if 21 need to know. You know? 21 -. I don't know. To be honest with you. I 22 MR. : When did you speak with 22 didn't ask her that much. She didn't say, oh, 23 her? 23 shit, yeah, I didn't get any kind of reaction 24 MR. EPSTEIN: A number of times since 24 from her. (Indiscernible *00:35:41) 25 then. 25 MR. : All right. EFTA00113469 41 42 1 MR. Do you know if Jeffrey 1 *00:36:SS). And he was trying to use that as, 2 changed his will leading up to August 9th? 2 well, he was contemplating suicide. I think 3 MR. EPSTEIN: I was told he changed his 3 maybe he was contemplating being killed in 4 will. He did. Now, traditionally, my brother 4 prison and wanted to make sure that his will 5 and I were not in each other's wills. Because 5 was up to date. I don't think it was fear -. 6 I don't need his money, he don't need my money. 6 I don't think it was fear of suicide. I mean, 7 So, he changed the will, from my understanding. 7 you know, I don't think he was planning 8 Now, I'm not the executive of his estate. I 8 suicide. I think if anything, he was 9 had nothing to do with his estate. The 9 (Indiscernible *00:37:14) about being in 10 executives don't even talk to me. 10 prison. Indiscernible *00:37:16) stories. 11 (Indiscernible *00:36:23) or anything. But 11 MR. : And do you know anything 12 from what I understand, all of his assets were 12 about him, like, being placed on suicide watch, 13 put into a trust. Or they were supposed to be 13 and taken off? Do you know anything -? 14 put into a trust, after Jeffrey died. And they 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was placed on 15 paid out all the money to the victims, and his 15 suicide watch, and he was taken off. Exactly 16 (Indiscernible *00:36:35). And the trust 16 the reasons? I don't know. They never told 17 dictates what happens to his money. I'm not 17 me. 18 the trustee and I'm not privy to his trust. 18 MR. : Do you know if anyone 19 MR. : Who did you hear it from, 19 from the outside, such as his attorneys, or 20 that he put it in the will? He changed the 20 anybody like that, called anyone to ask him to 21 will. 21 be taken off of suicide watch? 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, it was public 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Only what was in the papers. 23 knowledge. Yeah. And his attorneys also told 23 So -- 24 me that he changed his will. But this is in 24 MR. Okay. 25 the papers. This was (Indiscernible 25 MR. EPSTEIN: -- so, I don't have any 43 44 1 first-hand of it. 1 before he died. Not that day. I think it was 2 MR. : And you've never gotten 2 before. 3 to speak to his attorneys? They never 3 MR. : You mentioned something about 4 disclosed the information? 4 a non-prosecution from Florida. Can you 5 MR. EPSTEIN: Not very much. No. Hmm-mm. 5 explain that? 6 MR. : Okay. So, just the 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. In 2006, I think it 7 papers. Other than having that conversation 7 was, when he first got in trouble in Florida, 8 with (Indiscernible *00:37:53), have you spoken 8 you know, when he got back whatever, he got his 9 with anyone on the outside? 9 sweetheart deal. Which I was told, he got a 10 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 10 sweetheart deal because the girls that were 11 MR. : Right? 11 claiming to be victims were actually - 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, so, David Shone 12 determined to be very unreliable witnesses. 13 (Phonetic Sp. *00:37:56), the attorney, who was 13 Because they found their Facebook pages with 14 going to go ask me, because he also said that 14 drugs and sex. And one of the girls was a 15 (Indiscernible *00:38:01) suicide. Yeah. I 15 prostitute with her mother, you know, all kinds 16 was surprised because he felt -. He said Jeff 16 of -. 17 felt positive about the defense they were going 17 These are not clean-cut little Catholic 18 to go with know, in the prosecution. 18 school girls. You know, so, he got - made the 19 MR. : And David Shone met them on 19 deal back in 2006, and part of the deal was he 20 Friday? 20 had to sign the prosecution agreement for him 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Excuse me? 21 and the other unnamed individuals. I don't 22 MR. : You mentioned a David Shone 22 know. It's -. And that's what he was living 23 met with them on Friday. 23 on ever since. You know, just, there's been 24 MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, no, no, no. David 24 no, from what I understand, I haven't seen any 25 Shone, had met with him in jail, I think, 25 evidence that he was with underaged women past EFTA00113470 45 46 1 that point in time. And he got out of jail, 1 that was the Southern District, or whatever, 2 and did that, you know, 13 month sentence he 2 what Florida park, or I don't know, the, like, 3 had and was in jail for (Indiscernible 3 the lingo. I don't get in trouble, so I'm not 4 *00:39:23). 4 up on the (Indiscernible *00:40:21). You know, 5 He got a house. You know, he got that 5 and, you know, as far as I know, this one is 6 work release -. (Indiscernible *00:39:29). He 6 federal government. 7 got a good deal. After that, I mean, we used 7 MR. (Indiscernible 8 to - there's a joke around with him You know, 8 *00:40:24) 9 and I told him, you know, I'm his brother and 9 MR. EPSTEIN: And if you make a deal in a 10 said, set up a passport scanner in front of 10 non-prosecution agreement, with the federal 11 your door, (Indiscernible *00:39:39). Tell 11 government, well, that's the federal 12 your girl that comes in, she has to to show 12 government. It's not like the New York people, 13 that she's at least 18. Yeah, you have -. You 13 federal here have the right to break off the 14 know, we're joking around. So, and as far as I 14 agreement. 15 know, there have been no claims of him being 15 So, was it, why was he arrested? You know, 16 with underaged women. And all the stuff that 16 another theor about that -- 17 he, well, I don't think it's the case, but yes. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : You mentioned the non- 18 MR. EPSTEIN: -- okay, is that in the 19 prosecution agreement, as the fact that he 19 screen, before he was arrested, one of the 20 believed he was getting out of prison. 20 victims went to the FBI, and said that she was 21 MR. EPSTEIN: No, no. He got out of 21 in his house, on Seventy First Street, and he 22 prison. He served his time he was sentenced 22 had this extensive camera system, in all the 23 to. But at that time - and this is public - he 23 rooms, all the bathrooms, all this kind of 24 had a non-prosecution agreement with the 24 stuff. Now, the one thing about Jeffrey is 25 federal government. You know, the same one, 25 that Jeffrey was a bull shitter. He would say 47 48 1 things just for be provocative. 1 allowed to have cash and diamonds. You know, 2 Now, he had a very extensive video room, 2 and he had some expired, old passport for some 3 when we first walk into the house on the right. 3 (Indiscernible *00:41:55). (Indiscernible 4 Because I was there years ago. With lots of 4 *00:41:57) long story for that. But what were 5 monitors. But they were all on the outside of 5 they looking for? Who was (Indiscernible 6 the building, for security. And inside the 6 *00:42:00) to get into this house to look for - 7 front door, and inside the backdoor. There 7 ? Who were they looking for? Are they looking 8 wasn't cameras throughout the house. And I've 8 for the tapes of somebody on the street? They 9 spoken with people who knew the house, people 9 had some tapes. That did not exist. Which 10 who worked at the house. And they, like I 10 didn't exist. 11 said, that extensive video system, that house 11 And then, he was arrested, and you know, 12 didn't exist. 12 gets killed. And like I said, he set you up as 13 But the FBI got this information that it 13 a crook. I said, he had enough dirt on both 14 did. And then, a few months later, he gets 14 candidates to have the election cancelled in 15 arrested, and they break into his house with a 15 2016. This doesn't alleviate -. If you forget 16 search warrant, and I would like to see that 16 everything else, everything I showed you here, 17 search warrant. This is what -. Because in 17 and everything you know now, would you just 18 the search warrant, you have to state what 18 say, yes, it was a suicide? I wouldn't. And 19 you're looking for. Right? You can't use it 19 not because - like I said - not because I'm his 20 as a fishing expedition. So, what is it they 20 brother. It just doesn't add up as a suicide. 21 were looking for? Because they broke into his 21 Like I said, and trust me, if he committed 22 house, and they cut the safe open. But you 22 suicide, my life would have been a lot easier 23 heard that he had about 470,000 in cash, and 23 this time. 24 diamonds. 24 I've had death threats, I've been in touch 25 Well, he's a very wealthy man. He's 25 with the FBI and NYPD for the last two years. EFTA00113471 49 50 1 And I have hired armed guards for. When I met 1 speak with us? 2 with Steve Bannon, after I saw the tape that my 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I think you should 3 brother sent me after his death, I contacted 3 talk to the guards. The EMT uards. 4 Steve Bannon, I wanted to find out what this 4 and I think it's 5 was about. You know? And I know that Bannon, 5 (Phonetic Sp. *00:43:52). Or something 6 I actually had armed guards. I didn't, because 6 O'Shawnasee. Those are the two EMT guards. 7 I didn't know who was (Indiscernible 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 *00:43:11). I knew him walking to a hotel, and 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Find out from them who was 9 be taking out the garbage (Indiscernible 9 directing the operations in the prison. Why 10 *00:43:13), like the show, you know? 10 did they move the body out when they weren't 11 And armed guards. And Bannon's told me 11 supposed to move the body out? Who was 12 about the 16 hours of tape, and he told me that 12 directing them? Who was there? 13 the -. He said that the tape should protect 13 MR. : Okay. 14 him, and that by attorney/client privilege, as 14 MR. EPSTEIN: And then, in the hospital, 15 witnesse preparation. But Bannon is not an 15 when he was there, I mean, I don't know, do the 16 attorney. 16 fire depairtniiiiiiis wear body cameras? 17 MR. : And which tapes are we 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 talking about right now? 18 MR. EPSTEIN: EMTs? I don't know. You 19 MR. EPSTEIN: The 16 hours of video tape 19 know, but in a - like I said - there was a 20 interviews that (Indiscernible *00:43:33) with 20 handheld camera in the hospital, when they took 21 my brother. 21 him, there were four people there. Two EMTs 22 MR. : Off of what we've talked 22 and two other people, and someone would have a 23 about, at least thus far, who do you think we 23 video camera of that. And why did they dress 24 should speak with, that would have the 24 him in a iiiiiiiiliown? 25 firsthand knowledge, that would be willing to 25 MR. : Okay. 51 52 1 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, why are they 1 MS. : The guy that had 2 trying to make him look -? Like, Bannon told 2 (Indiscernible *00:45:19) poster. 3 me there is a prison culture here. Nobody dies 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. I knew his name. 4 in prison. You know, they find a dead body, 4 Farrington (Phonetic Sp. *00:45:25). I believe 5 they ship them to the hospital, and it's 5 it was William Farrington. 6 declared dead in the hospital. That's 6 MR. : He was at the hospital, 7 traditional in the prison system. Because they 7 or he was at the prison? 8 don't want to deal with the dead body in 8 MR. EPSTEIN: At the prison. 9 prison. And that seems to be (Indiscernible 9 MS. : At MCC. 10 *00:44:52), as well. But what are they trying 10 MR. Okay. 11 to, you know, to take him out, trying to 11 MR. : When Mr. Epstein was being 12 intubate him. These guys are trained. Yeah, 12 rolled out? 13 now they know he's not coming back. 13 MS. : Yup. 14 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He's on the gurney, 15 MR. EPSTEIN: So, why this charade? And 15 and he's covered in a sheet. They have a neck 16 why are we in here, there was a camera guy 16 brace on him, and they -. He's intubated. 17 there. Right? Who took the photographs. You 17 They have a thing down his throat, and that 18 got people questioning, how did he know to be 18 squeezing one of those, the air balloons, to 19 there? 19 try to get air into his lungs. Yeah. Which 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 you use on, like, drowning victims, and 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Why was he there by the 21 (Indiscernible *00:45:51). 22 prison early that morning, to take photographs 22 So, I was, like, why, you know, why this 23 and (Indiscernible *00:45:16), no doubt. 23 charade? And also, from the time they got 24 MR. : Which camera guy are you 24 there, they took him down, there's no pulse. 25 talking about? 25 Obviously. He's not breathing. You know, the EFTA00113472 53 54 1 body can only last a few minutes under that 1 MR. As said, did he 2 condition. So, what -? They got up there. He 2 contact anlucni -? 3 was found dead, you know, they do whatever they 3 MR. IIIIII: Did he contact any of the 4 do in there, they cut him open, they try to 4 family members? 5 defibrillate him. Right? Because that's the 5 MR. EPSTEIN: No. And there's no one in 6 thing on the other picture, the defibrillator 6 the famil 7 angle. And there's the electric cord in the 7 MR. . : So, you don't know 8 room because he slept with a CPAP machine. 8 anybody, aside from his attorneys, 9 Which, I didn't know he used one. But 9 (Indiscernible *00:46:52) who spoke to 10 turns out he did. And he was in the room with 10 (Indiscernible *00:46:53) on his night, or 11 his electric cord. You know, and, oh, in the 11 spoke to (Indiscernible *00:46:54)? 12 photographs, let me see if I can find this 12 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. 13 photo here. 13 MR. : He spoke with you? 14 MR. : Why are you looking that up? 14 MR. EPSTEIN: I sent him a letter in 15 I know, you might have answered this. Did you 15 prison. I have no idea if he ever got it. 16 have any communications with him when he was in 16 (Indiscernible *00:47:00). 17 prison? 17 MR. : In terms of siblings, you 18 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 18 were the only sibling? 19 MR. : Did he email you, or call you 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 20 20 MR. : The parents? 21 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Deceased. 22 MR. : -- anything like that? 22 MR. : Deceased. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: Nope. 23 MR. rkay. 24 MR. : What about any other family 24 MR. EPSTEIN: My father died in '91. 30 25 members? 25 years ago. And my mother died in 2004. 55 56 1 MR. : 2004? 1 bail was. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: 2004. 2 MR. And (Indiscernible 3 MR. : Okay. 3 *00:48:13)? 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, they were older. It 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, his bail, his bail 5 was right around when Jeff first got in trouble 5 itself was 100, plus 100 million. Somewhere in 6 in 2006. He called me, and asked me if I'm at 6 that. I don't know the exact number. No. But 7 his house, which is, you know, like, after my 7 whatever it_vaii_j_paid them. 8 mother died, I moved back, (Indiscernible 8 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Yeah. Okay. 9 *00:47:33), because most of our communications, 9 MR. EPSTEIN: I have his (Indiscernible 10 it seems Jeff was rather (Indiscernible 10 *00:48:22iiIIIIIIII 11 *00:47:36), health issues, and being close to 11 MR. : (Indiscernible 12 the family. Like, he called me to his house, 12 *00:48:23). 13 because he wanted to tell me himself that he 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Mm-hmm. 14 was getting in trouble. You know, for 14 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:48:26) 15 (Indiscernible *00:47:47). And the first thing 15 the house in Florida? 16 I said to him, I said, well, (Indiscernible 16 MR. EPSTEIN: The house in Florida is a 17 *00:47:50) mom's dead. It's looking like 17 small part. 18 they're about to kill her. (Indiscernible 18 MS. : (Indiscernible *00:48:30). 19 *00:47:53 some So. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Technically the first bail 20 MR. : How long did you take 20 he called me and asked me if I would 21 care -? So, you said that you had ghosted a 21 participate in his bail, because he's 22 large part of (Indiscernible *00:48:04) life. 22 explaining that it's a better show if other 23 (Indiscernible *00:48:06). And how much do you 23 people are willing to (Indiscernible 24 (Indiscernible *00:48:11)? 24 *00:48:39). 25 MR. EPSTEIN: You can hold - whatever his 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00113473 57 58 1 MR. EPSTEIN: So, I said, sure, put in my 1 guess would be that you actually weren't, and 2 house in Florida. 2 you actually agreed to post the bail, and 3 MR. (Indiscernible 3 (Indiscernible *00:49:28) how much money was 4 *00:48:45)? 4 it? 5 MR. EPSTEIN: That's worth 4200,000. 5 MR. EPSTEIN: Up to, it was somewhere in 6 That's not (Indiscernible *00:48:48). And 6 the range of 100 million. 7 then, come the appeal. You know, 7 MR. : Okay. You got that type 8 (Indiscernible *00:48:54) days, but prior to 8 of money? 9 his death. They called me and they explained 9 MR. EPSTEIN: (Indiscernible *00:49:40). 10 that, you know, they're going to this appeal, 10 You'll see. Mm-hmm. 11 and he was pretty much, you know, at the house, 11 MR. : But you mentioned 12 which you can find was valued at (Indiscernible 12 another. There was one other person, I thought 13 *00:49:01) house. I think he was in jail for 13 you said, that was also involved? 14 (Indiscernible *00:49:05), you know, a couple, 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 15 close to 100 nights. They asked me if I would 15 That's (Indiscernible *00:49:50). 16 guarantee his (Indiscernible *00:49:10). I 16 MR. : Just the two of you? 17 said yes. So, I don't remember the exact 17 MR. EPSTEIN: As far as I know, yeah. 18 number, but he wasn't worried about it. 18 That's thiliiiiiipeople I've ever known. Yeah. 19 Because like I said -- 19 MS. : I don't know if that bail 20 MR. : No, no, no. I'm just -- 20 application was final. It might be 21 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I'm just going to show 21 (Indiscernible *00:49:58). 22 up. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. -- for (Indiscernible 23 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. Give me 24 *00:49:19), especially when we had heard that 24 (Indiscernible *00:50:10) for this. 25 you guys are estranged, but if I can say my 25 MR. : And it was Jeffrey's lawyers 59 60 1 that reached out to you about that? 1 the door. So, it was obviously moved. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 2 MR. : (Indiscernible 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, the one lawyer Darian 3 *00:53:13). 4 Indyke, he works in prison (Indiscernible 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Let me go back. Let 5 *00:50:30). He (Indiscernible *00:50:31). 5 me get rid of this and go back. It says 6 MR. : Okay. 6 (Indiscernible *00:53:23). 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Actually, yeah, a long time 7 MR. : Okay. Are these for 8 ago. Like, 30 years ago. He worked in a law 8 scenes for us, (Indiscernible *00:53:27)? 9 firm, and Jeffrey and I both used that law 9 MR. EPSTEIN: No. This is my only copy of 10 firm. I used it for law stuff. (Indiscernible 10 these. 11 *00:50:41). Always there. But I haven't seen 11 MR. : Okay. 12 him in a very long time. Until this 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. Here. Oh. Oh, 13 (Indiscernible *00:50:48). So, he might be 13 fucking hell. All right. You see here, the 14 personal. Yeah. Okay. In these pictures, 14 electric cord is on the outside of the room. 15 he's by the cell. You see this electric cord 15 And the other picture, the door was opened, and 16 here is, like, in the room access. He would 16 this knot and stuff was on the inside of the 17 have to have the door, the door swung open, and 17 door. So, somebody moved that for some reason. 18 the electric cord was there. That was I think 18 Because he didn't (Indiscernible *00:53:54). 19 his defibrillator or something. And the CPAP 19 And it's just, like, a discrepancy 20 machine. But you could see there is an 20 (Indiscernible *00:53:59). 21 electric cord. In that picture of the electric 21 MR. : I see. 22 cord. (Indiscernible *00:52:22). What is 22 MR. EPSTEIN: And supposedly, there was a 23 that? Yeah, and in the picture I'm looking 23 lot of activity after he was gone. At least 24 for, it shows that electric cord, really. It's 24 that you can see in the picture. 25 plugged into the extension on the other side of 25 MR. So, it's always good for EFTA00113474 61 62 1 us to have (Indiscernible *00:54:10), along 1 (Indiscernible *00:54:43) with his life, you 2 with the photographs, and perhaps the 2 didn't seem surprised. Were you surprised? 3 (Indiscernible *00:54:12). 3 MR. EPSTEIN: I wasn't surprised. I'm 4 MR. EPSTEIN: I can make copies and send 4 pretty level-headed. You know? So, I don't -. 5 it to you. 5 So, these don't surprise me. I've seen a lot 6 MR. Oh my, that would be 6 of shit in my life. You know? I haven't been 7 great. 7 in the military, but military people have told 8 MR. EPSTEIN: No problem. 8 me I should have been in the military. Because 9 MR. (Indiscernible 9 I'm always the one with the cool head, you 10 *00:54:18). 10 know, when all shit breaks loose. So, I wasn't 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 11 surprised. It was a little bit shocking that 12 MS. (Indiscernible *00:54:19). 12 he was dead. But like I said, I assumed, okay, 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, give me your cards, 13 you heard on CNN that he committed suicide. 14 and I'll -- 14 So, you originally you don't have reason to 15 MR. : Okay. 15 question. 16 MR. EPSTEIN: -- so you guys can -. 16 You just assume that that's the case. I 17 MR. : Okay. Well, if there is 17 mean, that and the reason that he committed 18 anything (Indiscernible *00:54:26), if there's 18 suicide. And I - again - knowing, you know, 19 something else that we're missing, 19 that he was potentially facing the long term 20 (Indiscernible *00:54:32). 20 prison sentence, he didn't have kids to worry 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 21 about. He didn't have to worry about me. Our 22 MR. : Just let us know. 22 parents are dead. There's no other relative 23 MR. When you first started 23 that he was close to. In that way. So, I 24 (Indiscernible *00:54:39), were you aware that 24 assumed, okay. That's what he did. You know? 25 Mr. Epstein went through his life, he 25 But as I finished my breakfast, you know, it's 63 64 1 -. But, you know, I didn't, and like I said, I 1 MR. : Did he ever show any 2 assumed if that was his choice, then I respect 2 tendencies towards wanting to take his life? 3 that. 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Never. Never. No. That 4 Because, look, if I was in his shoes, I 4 wasn't him. He had no reason to. He had, 5 have kids, you know, like I said, if I didn't 5 like, the -. He had a life that you and me, go 6 have kids, and I was potentially facing what I 6 anywhere we want. He had more money than God. 7 did, you know, we're not religious people, you 7 He did what he wanted. You know, if he wanted 8 know, we were both raised atheists. So, you 8 to do it with me, if he had yes people 9 know, we don't have that kind of fears or 9 surroundiiiiiii, who catered his every whim. 10 anything. Yeah, I might choose to take myself 10 MR. : Right. 11 out. But I would certainly wait for the bail 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Flying around on private 12 hearing to pass. That's what (Indiscernible 12 jets. Beautiful homes all over the place. 13 *00:56:18). And Jeffrey wasn't a stupid man. 13 Lots of women. You know? He wasn't -. Side 14 So, you know, I'm sure he would wait for that, 14 story. My mother was once asked me, why 15 as well. Because it doesn't make sense to kill 15 doesn't he want to settle down? And I said to 16 himself two days before a bail hearing, where 16 her, I said, he hasn't settled down because if 17 your bail is going to be the highest bail ever 17 he found a quality woman to settle down with, 18 in the United States, with a guarantee. 18 instead of these bimbos that he's hanging out 19 MR. : I know you mentioned you 19 with, she would eventually say, you know, why 20 didn't communicate with him after his arrest, 20 don't we do this instead of that. That was 21 his last arrest in July, but before that, did 21 what he wanted. I said, and that's why she 22 he ever mention about possibly committing 22 gets shown the door. Because he didn't want to 23 suicide? Was he ever depressed? 23 do anything that he didn't want to do. That 24 MR. EPSTEIN: No. Never. Never. Never. 24 was -. And he was able to have his life that 25 No. 25 way. There was no reason for him to kill EFTA00113475 65 66 1 himself or think about killing himself. 1 already went through that shunning, you know, 2 MR. : Now -- 2 and, you know, it is what it was. He was 3 MR. EPSTEIN: He was healthy. He wasn't 3 trying to rehabilitate his reputation, at the 4 facing any medical issues, or whatever. You 4 time. 5 know, anything drastic(Indiscernible 5 That's why Bannon was helping him. 6 *00:57:44iiiiiiiiii. 6 Because Bannon was going to come out with 7 MR. : -- being his brother, and 7 another story. And there's another, there's 8 knowing him the way you do, do you think that 8 people from Australia - and you'll see soon in 9 the bail, if he was actually going to be 9 the papers - that they're coming out with a 10 released, would he have any fear of being out 10 whole story about this case, with Ghislaine 11 in public, because people then now perceiving 11 Maxwell, and the brother, and these victims, 12 him a certain way? 12 who they're claiming, we're not really victims. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, he had that whole 13 You know? You know, that these are just, as my 14 thing from 2006. He's been shunned by, you 14 mother used to say, good time Charlies. 15 know, society since that first thing in 2006. 15 Girls looking for a good time. You know, 16 You know, like, when he's in business, he used 16 if it was so victim-ish, you know, then how 17 to, you know, handle the Les Wexner's 17 come all these girls brought their friends to 18 money(Indiscernible *00:58:12). That's how he 18 participate in these parties? There was an 19 made a lot of his money. You know what I'm 19 interview on TV, last year. It was set in 20 saying, with the (Indiscernible *00:58:15). 20 Britain. Some British woman who (Indiscernible 21 So, Wexlon (Phonetic Sp. *00:58:18) 21 *00:59:11) and my brother, who had been to some 22 distanced himself from that. Because, you 22 of the dinner parties, at my brother's house. 23 know, people would be seeing the old Jeffrey 23 And so, you know, and she started saying, there 24 Epstein, because of his initial thing in 2006. 24 were two journalists, interviewing her. She 25 In that period of time. So, yeah. So, he 25 started saying how these girls were not 67 68 1 victims. You know, they were enjoying the high 1 records that he was meeting with his attorneys 2 life. 2 all day, and (Indiscernible *01:00:13) the 3 Flying around in private jets. Being in 3 entire day. Every day. 4 these amazing homes. I mean, his house in New 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 5 York City is pretty amazing, you know? And 5 MS. : Because all of the rest of 6 then, and when she started turning the tide on 6 us had to wait, because you couldn't see 7 these poor victims, the journalist shut it 7 anybody else from the SHU. 8 down. Because at the time, nobody wants to 8 MR. : Hmm. 9 hear anything positive about Jeff. Nobody 9 MR. EPSTEIN: (Indiscernible *01:00:25). 10 wants to hear anything negative about his 10 Also, when a - a couple - the weeks before he 11 victims. You know? You know, Jeff was just 11 died, he had that incident with Tartaglione. 12 looking fiiiiliood time, you know? 12 His cellmate at the time. 13 MR. : Do you know if he was aware 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 that you'll put it up, and agree to be the 14 MR. EPSTEIN: There's conflicting stories, 15 guarantee, guarantor? 15 about it, you know, David Shone said that - and 16 MR. EPSTEIN: Uh. 16 publicly - that Tartaglione attacked him, one 17 MR. : For the bail. 17 afternoon, and they're trying to say that was, 18 MR. EPSTEIN: I think his attorneys told 18 like, the suicide attempt. So, who knows what 19 him that. Yeah. 19 took place. But if Tartaglione attacked him. 20 MR. : Same thing with 20 And then, Tartaglione was still on the tier. 21 . You think the attorneys screwed 21 (Indiscernible *01:00:55). 22 (Indiscernible *01:00:03)? 22 MR. : Now, do you know if 23 MR. EPSTEIN: I would imagine so. Yeah. 23 Jeffrey spoke at all with anyone -. If his 24 MR. Okay. 24 attorneys know anything about Epstein being 25 MS. You can check the MCC 25 attacked by Tartaglione? EFTA00113476 69 70 1 MR. EPSTEIN: David Shone is the one that 1 MR. : Right. 2 would talk to me about that. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : So, that's -. 3 MS. M Okay. 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Like I said, his attorneys 4 MR. : Anything else that we 5 don't give me very much information on that. I 5 know about, or follow up with? 6 was involved in the case. And that 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Like I said, like, I would 7 (Indiscernible *01:01:16) in place, and you 7 like to talk to the, you know, who were the 8 don't see the name anywhere. Yes. 8 unnamed guards, number one and number two? You 9 MR. : But that Jeffrey 9 know, a list of people in the tier. 10 specifically told him that, is what you're 10 found him in the morning. So, he was in 11 saying, or he -- 11 there, assuming that Barr was right and nobody 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 12 went in and out. Like I said, if he was going 13 MR. : -- just heard of that? 13 to be killed, nobody would go in and out to 14 MR. EPSTEIN: No, no. He -. David Shone 14 kill him, right? All right. How you going to 15 met with Jeffrey in jail. And that's why David 15 do that? (Indiscernible *01:02:13) but if you 16 Shone said that Jeffrey was upbeat about the 16 plant someone in there, you know, to kill him. 17 defense. 17 You know, that's how you commit suicide. 18 MR. : Okay. 18 That's a lot of things, a suicide. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, relying on another 19 MR. : Prior to getting 20 prosecution. Oh, that's what got Bill Cosby 20 murdered? 21 out, right? Another prosecution, a non- 21 MR. EPSTEIN: No. He wasn't. He was 22 disclosure agreement, yeah. Which I believe is 22 murdered. 23 the defense that Ghislaine Maxwell is going to 23 MR. : (Indiscernible 24 use, but, you know, I'm not an attorney, and 24 *01:02:28). 25 (Indiscernible *01:01:44). 25 MR. EPSTEIN: But to do murder and make it 71 72 1 look like a suicide. That's the (Indiscernible 1 crucial. What position Jeffrey was in when 2 *01:02:31iiIIIIIIII 2 found him. 3 MR. : Oh. I got it. I 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 understand what you're saying. All right. So, 4 MR. EPSTEIN: The video tape in the 5 yeah, from you, or anything that we've 5 hospital. You know, with the (Indiscernible 6 discussed, (Indiscernible *01:02:39), if you 6 *01:03:15), the FDNY guys, that we both talk, I 7 want us to attach that video -- 7 tried to godownto the station -- 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 8 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- as well as the 9 MR. EPSTEIN: -- or the SHU, yeah, 10 photographs, and the recording -- 10 (Indiscernible *01:03:25) around, talk to them. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 11 And I'm Indiscernible *01:03:24). 12 MR. : -- you can just send it 12 MR. : Who won't talk to you? 13 to us through your attorney. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: I was trying to get the fire 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 14 departmeniiiiiiiii, 15 MR. : And I'm grateful 15 MR. : Oh, okay. 16 (Indiscernible *01:02:47) that we can have 16 MR. EPSTEIN: -- to try to get them to 17 other stuff to follow up on. 17 talk to me, but they won't talk. I'm the next 18 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 18 of kin, I'm entitled to all this information. 19 MR. : (Indiscernible 19 MR. Sure. 20 *01:02:S0). 20 MR. EPSTEIN: And they ain't got shit. 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. So, the guards. Who 21 You know, other than this paperwork. 22 the guards were -. Like I said, I wouldn't 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 mind talking to , and finding out 23 MR. EPSTEIN: Also, what happened with the 24 what position was Jeffrey in when he first saw 24 test, and the DNA, and his nails. Was that 25 him. When he first found him. That's very 25 test ever done? What were the results of that EFTA00113477 73 74 1 test? I mean, if it was a real artist, then 1 MR. EPSTEIN: It was, like, five days. 2 you may not find anything. Was the test done? 2 MS. Yeah. 3 And what led the Chief Medical Examiner declare 3 MR. EPSTEIN: It was something, like, five 4 it was a suicide just a few days after it was 4 days. 5 pending. Pending forever investigation. 5 MR. : Was that when he -- 6 MS. : There was never an 6 MS. : But we had heard from the 7 investigation. 7 media that they were changing it. That's why 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. What investigation 8 we called into the Medical Examiner's Office, 9 took place? There was no indication that any 9 like, what the hell is going on? What are you 10 investigation took place. Which, like, other 10 talking about? Where are you getting this 11 than Barr saying, well, he sort of 11 from? It made no sense. Because there hadn't 12 (Indiscernible *01:04:06) nobody went in and 12 been a full investigation. 13 out. That convinced him it was a suicide. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: The city pathologist and Dr. 14 MS. : That came later. 14 Barton, the did the autopsy. 15 MR. EPSTEIN: What? 15 MS. : They were present. Yes. 16 MS. : That came later. 16 MR. EPSTEIN: They were present. They did 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. It came later. That 17 the autopsy. They said, this looks more like 18 came later. 18 a murder than a suicide. And then, the Chief 19 MR. : Are you aware of when 19 Medical Examiner declares it's a suicide from 20 they actuiiiiiiiought they deemed it a suicide? 20 before. What is she basing that on? 21 MS. : It was the Friday. The 21 MR. : When they do the autopsy, is 22 followinglFrida iiiiiiii, 22 it recorded? 23 MR. : So, that Friday. So, he 23 MS. : Yes. 24 was found on Saturday, the following? That 24 MR. EPSTEIN: It's what? 25 Friday? 25 MR. : Is it video recorder? 75 76 1 MS. It's audio recorded. 1 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 2 MR. : Audio recorded. And there -- 2 MS. No. But they didn't ask 3 MR. EPSTEIN: And the photographs. 3 him. 4 MR. : Dr. Barton (Indiscernible 4 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. He wasn't 5 *01:05:06) recording? 5 consulted. 6 MS. : We don't have the recording. 6 MS. He was surprised. 7 MR. But if he was there? He 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Well, you can talk to 8 would be heard in(Indiscernible *01:05:12) the 8 Barton, if he's around. Go talk to him. 9 recording? 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:05:56) 10 MS. : He was there. 10 for contact information you have? Is there any 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Because he spoke it. 11 contact information you would like to provide? 12 MS. : Of course. 12 MR. EPSTEIN: For Barton? 13 MR. EPSTEIN: He said they did whatever he 13 MR. For any of the people 14 asked them to do, certain things. He's -- 14 that you -. 15 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:05:18) 15 MR. : We have David Shone. 16 MR. EPSTEIN: -- so, he wouldn't have to 16 Was Shone -. 17 do a second autopsy. It would be closer. If 17 MR. Or you can provide it 18 he's standing there, they - (Indiscernible 18 through your attorney. 19 *01:05:23) asked him whatever he wanted. You 19 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:06:09). 20 know? Yeah. 20 Why don't you just send it all to me? And I'll 21 MS. : They -. Sorry. 21 just forward it to them. 22 (Indiscernible *01:05:34). Yeah. They changed 22 MR. : Anyone you think that -- 23 it. We don't understand why. 23 MR. : Anyone that we should be 24 MR. : And Barton. Did Barton agree 24 - you think we should speak to, and the contact 25 to the - it be changed? 25 information that you have. I'm not talking EFTA00113478 77 78 1 about, like, the guards or things like that. I 1 2000s, Jeffrey and I spent a lot of time 2 mean -- 2 together. We were much closer to him. But 3 MS. Well, we don't have that. 3 then, (Indiscernible *01:07:36), you know, just 4 MR. : -- right. And I mean, we 4 got (Indiscernible *01:07:39). 5 have all of that stuff. But as far as outside S MR. : Is there any 6 of the government. 6 communications via email that would have been - 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, well, well, I'll give 7 that you had with Jeffrey that would help us at 8 you David Shone's number. I have it right 8 all? 9 here. It's 9 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I might have the back 10 MR. : What's the name? 10 and forth between him and I, with the, about 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Barton's number, his mobile 11 the video 12 is . Great guy, by the way, 12 MS. IIIIIII: Uh-huh. 13 talking to. He really is super (Indiscernible 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. That was forwarded to 14 *01:06:53. 14 me from Bannon. Yeah. There's nothing else, 15 MR. : What about Mitchell? 15 really. Like I said, most of the 16 16 communications with us was, you know, telling 17 MR. EPSTEIN: (917) 362-8787. Because I 17 me funny things, or I just keep him 18 knew from lon a o. And I 18 (Indiscernible *01:08:08) with every cousins, 19 haven't seen or spoken to 19 and things like that. So. 20 probably in a couple of decades. Until this 20 MR. : Maybe you've talked 21 came about. That's when we reconnected. When 21 amongst your attorney, if there is any 22 I found out that he also put money, you know, 22 communications that you guys have, that might 23 the bail u for Jeffrey, we reconnected. 23 be helpful for us? 24 MR. : Anything else? 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: Back in the 90s, and early 25 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. 79 80 1 MR. : Do you know of anyone else 1 MR. EPSTEIN: The trustee. The 2 that communicated with Jeffrey, while he was in 2 executives. 3 prison, other than his attorneys? 3 MR. : Who are they? 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, just Karyna. 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Darian Indyke, and Richard 5 MS. : I don't think - I mean, he 5 Connor (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:07). 6 doesn't know his social circles. 6 MR. : Wait. What were the names? 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Darian Indyke. 8 MS. : So, he doesn't know his 8 MR. : Can you spell the last name 9 friends, or who he was in business with, or 9 for me? 10 anything along that line. And he's been shut 10 MR. EPSTEIN: I-N-D-I-K-E. 11 down. I've tried to reach out to people in the 11 MR. : And who was the other person? 12 estate, he wanted to have wrongful death suit 12 MR. EPSTEIN: It was Richard Connor. 13 for his brother, but the estate has that right, 13 Right? It's Richard? 14 he doesn't have that right, and they shouldn't 14 MS. : I'm not sure that -. I 15 reach out to him. 15 think there is another executive, as well. 16 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. And I'm not happy 16 MR. EPSTEIN: There was -- 17 that the estate wouldn't give me that right to 17 MR. : Okay. 18 file a wrongful death suit, because even if I 18 MR. EPSTEIN: -- there was a third one as 19 did it that way, the money -. Whatever money 19 an alternate. 20 is going to bring me. Look, it's a slam dunk 20 MS. Right. But I think -. 21 case for iiiiiiiiiieath. Mm-hmm. 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Who was declined, that he -- 22 MR. : Who was entitled to that 22 MS. That's (Indiscernible 23 money? Was that the estate? 23 *01:09:27). 24 MR. EPSTEIN: It belonged to his estate. 24 MR. EPSTEIN: -- doesn't want to be part 25 MR. And who was -? 2S of it. He didn't even know who (Indiscernible EFTA00113479 81 82 1 *01:09:30). 1 money, on this day, gets transferred off the 2 MR. . And who are these people? 2 trust, and then the trust got - you know, it 3 MS. The estate executives. 3 says what's to be done with it. And those 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, Gary is a long-term -- 4 guys, I believe, are under the trustees, as 5 MS. : An attorney? 5 well. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: -- was my brother's private 6 MR. : Okay. 7 attorney. He worked for Jeff for a long time. 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Now, I don't know. 8 And she's worked with him, (Indiscernible 8 Like I said, the wrongful death case, the 9 *01:09:41). Richard Connor, I think, was -. I 9 wrongful death suit, is that a slam dunk? And 10 don't think he's an attorney. I think he's, 10 I just want to point out, if it was successful, 11 like, an account or something. He also paid 11 there could have been more money in the pot for 12 (Indiscernible *01:09:46). 12 the victims, or for whatever, you know, if 13 MR. : And these people are 13 they're getting his money. But the executives 14 entitled to all -? 14 chose not to do it. And how did -. I question 15 MR. EPSTEIN: They're in control of the 15 that. And I question because there's a deal 16 estate. 16 coming in, because both Indyke and Connor are 17 MS. It's whatever the trustees, 17 being looked at and investigated. 18 we don't know. 18 So, they're rolling up all their sleeves. 19 MR. Okay. 19 And from what I heard, they've also, they're 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 20 hired criminal defense attorneys, for this 21 MS. : I mean -- 21 case. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: I mean, I believe that the 22 MS. : Yeah. 23 trustees -- 23 MR. EPSTEIN: So, there's some deal coming 24 MS. : I just have no idea. 24 in, it would going for wrongful death. If 25 MR. EPSTEIN: -- also, when he, you know, 25 something (Indiscernible *01:10:56). 83 84 1 MR. Okay. Well, if there is 1 the time to talk to us. 2 anything else after-- 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, pleasure might be the 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 3 wrong word. 4 MR. : -- you could always 4 MR. : It's 11:40 a.m. on September 5 contact us either by phone or whatever. 5 22, 2021. And we are endin the interview. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 6 This is Special Agent 7 MR. : And we will talk some 7 8 more about that. Otherwise, we'll look forward 8 9 to that other email. 9 10 MR. EPSTEIN: You have cards? Can I have 10 11 your cards? 11 12 MR. I don't think I actually 12 13 have a card. 13 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, if not, I can -. 14 15 MR. Yeah. Give it to me -- 15 16 MR. EPSTEIN: I can send to you. 16 17 MS. Well -- 17 18 MR. -- well, we send it to your 18 19 attorney. 19 20 MS. -- yeah, go through me. 20 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. Okay. 21 22 MR. (Indiscernible 22 23 *01:11:23 23 24 MS. Okay. 24 25 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 25 EFTA00113480 83 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of MARK EPSTEIN Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00113481