by date← Sep 23, 2021·Sep 23, 2021 →

EFTA00064266

Dataset 9

September 23, 202143 pages28,446 words

https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%209/EFTA00064266.pdf

Extracted Text

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Today is September 23, 2021. The time 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the 3 the record, and spell your last name? To 4 interview. My name is . I'm a 4 start, a.ain I am DO] OIG Special Agent, S Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 5 6 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 6 MR. Senior Special Agent 7 York Field Office, and these are my 7 . . 8 credentials. 8 : I'm correctional lieutenant, 9 : I see. 9 . . 10 MR. : This interview with the 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 lieutenant, . Did I say that 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 13 right? 13 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 14 : Yes. 14 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 16 : Yes. 17 of the Inspector General, DO] investigation. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 Today's date is September 23rd, 2021. The time 18 MR. Thank you. 19 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New 20 III-226/2. The form states, United States 21 York City. Also present is DO] Senior Special 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 Agent. 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 23 MR. . And 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 these areliiiiiedentials. Thank you. 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 MR. : This interview will be 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00064266 6 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 1 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 2 *00:03:03 Thank you. 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 3 : 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 4 MR. , do you 5 performance failure, and security failure. 5 understand form? 6 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 6 : Yes. Yes, sir. 7 you do not have to answer questions. No 7 MR. : And you are signing the form 8 disciplinary action will be taken against you 8 also. 9 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 9 Mm-hmm. 10 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 10 MR. Thank you. 11 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 11 That's it. Do my name? 12 disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver 12 MR. I'll fill out the -- 13 states, "I understand the Warnings and 13 Okay. 14 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 14 MR. -- that part. 15 make a statement and answer questions. No 15 No problem. 16 promises or threats have been made to me, and 16 MR. Okay. 17 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 17 MR. : Thank you. 18 used against me." Please read the form, and if 18 Thank you. 19 you understand -- 19 MR. : I can fill it out 20 : Okay. 20 anyways. 21 MR. -- can you please sign where 21 MR. : This is Agent . I'm 22 it says em to ee name, signature? 22 signing on the signature of the Office of 23 MR. : Need a pen? 23 Inspector General. 24 : Thank you. 24 MR. : Thank you. And I am 25 MR. : Move that out of the way. 25 going to sign as the witness and put my name. 7 8 1 Thanks. 1 MR. : Thank you. And what is your 2 MR. : Before starting the 2 current cell hone number? 3 interview I would like to place you under 3 4 oath. , can you please raise 4 MR. : What is your highest level of 5 your right hand? 5 education? 6 : Sure. 6 College. Bachelors. 7 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 7 MR Which colle e? 8 truth and nothing but the truth during this 8 The 9 interview? 9 MR And what was your -? That's 10 Yes. Yes, sir. 10 in New York? 11 Milli Thank you. Please let me 11 : It's upstate 12 know if you do not understand any questions, 12 New York. Yes. 13 and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for 13 MR. : And what was your major in? 14 you. 14 : I was in psychology, though I 15 : Okay. 15 believe is liberal arts. 16 MR. : What is your current home 16 MR. : What did you do prior to 17 address? 17 workirifS BOP? 18 18 : I worked for the New York 19 19 City Police Department as a school safety 20 MR. : Thank you. What is your date 20 agent. 21 of birth? 21 MR. : And when did you start 22 22 working for the BOP? 23 MR. : What Is your social security 23 : When did I start? 24 number? 24 MR. : Start. 25 25 : May 18, 2003. EFTA00064267 9 10 1 MR. When did you graduate 1 MR...kay. 2 college? 2 MR. : Okay. And when did you 3 May of 2012. 3 come to MCC? 4 MR. : Okay. 4 : I came to MCC January 31st, 5 MR. : Thank you. Do you have any 5 2011. 6 military service? 6 MR. And have you been here 7 : No, sir. 7 since? 8 MR. : And you said in 2003, you 8 Yes. 9 started with the BOP? 9 MR. Okay. And have you been 10 : Yes. 10 in the SIS Shoa since then? 11 MR. : And when did you -? What was 11 No. 12 the -? When did you first start? 12 MR. Okay. 13 : MDC Brooklyn. 13 I went into the SIS Shop in 14 MR. : MDC Brooklyn? 14 2016. 15 : Yes. 15 MR. 2016? 16 MR. : And you started as a C.O.? 16 Yes. 17 : Yes. 17 MR. And then, in 2019, were 18 MR. : Okay. When did you graduate 18 you a lieutenant with the SIS Office? 19 from BOP S trai i? i 19 Yes. 20 MR. : You don't remember the 20 MR. . Great. 21 answer? 21 MR. Okay. That's the basic 22 MR...eah. 22 background we cover to -- 23 MR. : It was probably shortly 23 MR. • Yeah, no -- 24 afteriiiiiiiiiied, correct? 24 MR. -- on that. 25 : Yes. 25 MR. . -- you can go into the 11 12 1 questions. 1 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as 2 MR. : So, what we're going to talk 2 well as his cellmate, to try to get both of 3 to you today about is Mr. -. Are you aware of 3 their sides of the story. 4 who Jeffre E stein is? 4 MR. . Was that 5 Yes. 5 : Yes. Mr. 6 91 : And was he an inmate at the 6 MR. Okay. 7 MCC? 7 : I spoke to Epstein in the R&D 8 : Yes. 8 area. He was a little hesitant, at first, 9 MR. : Were you familiar with him 9 about speaking to me. He kept asking me who 10 while he was housed here at the MCC? 10 was I? You know, what was I interviewing him 11 : Yeah. I would say yes. 11 for? And I explained to him my position as the 12 MR. : Okay. Let's start off. 12 SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are 13 Well, were you familiar with his first suicide 13 met, and, you know, I questioned him about 14 attemiiiIIIIIII 14 whose the alleged suicide attempt, and he said, 15 : Yes. I did the first 15 I don't remember what happened. I remember him 16 investigation on that one. Yes. 16 telling me he went to get a drink of water, and 17 MR. : Did that approximately, did 17 all he remembered is he was on the floor. And 18 that happen approximately around July 23rd, 18 the staff will come in and he wouldn't provide 19 2019? 19 much of anything else. 20 Yes. 20 I did question him about Mr. 21 MR. : Can you tell us what 21 You know, did you guys have any words with each 22 happened? Based on your investigation and what 22 other? You know, we were just cellmates at the 23 you found. 23 time. You know, when you went to get the drink 24 : Based on my investigation, 24 of water, and he would -. Either he say he was 25 once I found out about the suicide attempt when 25 laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00064268 13 14 1 You know? I asked him, you know, are you 1 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. 2 telling me the truth? Is there anything that 2 I can't tell you that they found it around his 3 you would like to volunteer? You know, did you 3 neck because I can't remember. To be honest 4 intentionally try to harm yourself? And at 4 with you. 5 times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. I 5 MR. : And how did the C.O.s become 6 don't know what happened. I just got a drink 6 aware that he had possibly tried to commit 7 of water, and next thing you know, I was on the 7 suicide? 8 floor. 8 : To my knowledge, Mr. 9 MR. : Did you ask him if 9 is who alerted the officers, by 10 attempted to harm him? 10 banging on the door. 11 : Yes. 11 MR. : And when the officers found 12 MR. : And what did he say to 12 him, did they find a noose around his neck? 13 that? 13 How diiiiiiiiiind him, do you recall? 14 : And he said no. 14 : I can't recall. I know that 15 MR. : And he said 15 they found him on the floor. But I can't 16 did not -- 16 recall if it was around his neck. 17 Yes. 17 MR. : And Mr. Epstein stated that 18 MR. • -- try to harm him? 18 did not try to kill him. 19 He said he did not. 19 : Yes. 20 MR. Okay. 20 MR. : Except there was a noose. 21 MR. Was there a noose found 21 : Yes. 22 around his neck, at that point? Do you know? 22 MR. : Did he mention if he made the 23 : I think it was. I think it 23 noose himself or how the noose came about? 24 was. At the time. It was a rope, I want to 24 : No. He didn't. 25 say, or something to that effect. They had 25 MR. : And what was your impression 15 16 1 after talking to him? Did you believe that he 1 : I don't. 2 tried to take his own life? 2 MR. So, was it inconclusive? 3 : I kind of had mixed feelings 3 : It was pretty inconclusive. 4 about it because he was insistent on that he 4 MR. What is your feeling of 5 didn't try to take his own life. You know? 5 what happened, though? Being a trained 6 Normally, a person will say, okay, this was 6 investi ator. 7 going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try 7 : I don't know if it was, you 8 to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. 8 know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, 9 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during 9 was this, like, did he intentionally try to do 10 the investigation and conclusion, I can't say 10 something to get our attention? You know, then 11 that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be 11 I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You 12 honest with you. From the answers that I was 12 have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you 13 getting back from him. 13 know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did 14 MR. : But he stated himself that 14 is telling me the truth. You know, 15 didn't try to kill him? 15 I really can't say what happened because you 16 : Yes. 16 have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, 17 MR. : So, the only other option 17 no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I 18 would have possibly been that he tried to 18 asked about them interacting. Do they talk? 19 commit suicide himself? 19 And he's, like, yes, we talk. 20 : Right. 20 You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We 21 MR. : Okay. 21 read books. He, you know? So, it wasn't no 22 MR. Or do you believe that 22 reason for me to believe that Mr. 23 inmate attempted to harm him? 23 you know, tried to harm him because Epstein 24 I don't. 24 didn't give me that impression. 25 MR. Yeah. 25 MR. And was he placed on EFTA00064269 17 18 1 suicide watch as a result? 1 MR. : No? 2 : Yes. 2 : No. I wouldn't say that. 3 MR. : So then, wouldn't you 3 Normally, they do their evaluation, the 4 only be placed on suicide watch if the thought 4 psychology department, and when I guess they 5 was that he was attempting to self-harm? 5 determined that the inmates could return to the 6 : If that was the thought made 6 general population, then they will release them 7 by the ps chola department -- 7 from the suicide watch. 8 MR. Okay. 8 MR. : Okay. So, the SIS 9 -- they would definitely 9 determination of inconclusive doesn't actually 10 place you on suicide watch. Even if you said 10 play into if he's on or off of suicide watch. 11 it out of playing, they would place you on a 11 • I don't think it did. 12 suicide watch. 12 MR. Okay. 13 MR. : So, do you know how they 13 : I don't think it did. 14 made that determination that he would be placed 14 MR. • Inmate Had he 15 on suicide watch? 15 been at the MCC for a long time? 16 : I don't know. 16 : Yeah. He's been at the MCC 17 MR. Okay. 17 for quite some time. 18 I don't know. 18 MR. : Did he have any history of 19 MR. But it wasn't based upon 19 violence with any of the inmates? 20 your investi ation? 20 : Not violence. He was more of 21 : No. 21 a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with 22 MR. . Was it actually your 22 a cellphone at a time. 23 investigation concluded, which actually brought 23 MR. : Is -- 24 him off of suicide watch? 24 : You know -- 25 : No. 25 MR. -- is that why -- 19 20 1 -- something to that effect. 1 : I'm not sure which one were 2 MR. . -- he was in the SHU? 2 removed, or if they both was placed in 3 : I think that's why he was in 3 different cells, with different cellmates. I'm 4 SHU at that time. 4 not sure. 5 MR. : Do you recall how 5 MR. : Well -. 6 got chosen to be E stein's inmate? 6 MR. Well, inmate Epstein was 7 MR. • Cellmate. 7 actuall laced on suicide watch. 8 MR. : Cellmate. Sorry. 8 : Right. But I'm not sure if 9 : Oh. 9 Mr. remained in that same cell. 10 MR. : Sorry. 10 MR. : Okay. But he was in the SHU 11 : Actually, I don't. I don't 11 after that meeting with him? 12 know how they put the two of them together. 12 : Yes. 13 Normally, if it's, you know, if we're vetting 13 MR. : Were there any issues with 14 cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you 14 him after that incident? 15 know, who do you think would be more suitable, 15 : With? 16 but in Epstein's case, nobody asked me. So, I 16 MR. : With 17 don't know how they became cellmates. 17 : Not that I'm aware of. 18 MR. : You don't know if any 18 MR. : Okay. And we asked about the 19 decisions were made by the higher ups, in 19 suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate 20 regards to him? 20 was - an incident like this happened, let's 21 : I don't know. 21 skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- 22 MR. : Okay. And after this 22 Okay. 23 incident happened, was removed from 23 MR. : -- if an inmate was found 24 the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from 24 with a noose, and there was a possibility of a 25 the cell? 25 suicide, what's the normal procedure that EFTA00064270 21 22 1 happens? What happens to the inmate? What 1 MR. : Do you think that was too 2 does the MCC do with the inmate? 2 early to remove him from suicide watch? I know 3 : If it was an incident where 3 this is -. What is the difference between 4 he was found, let's say, while I was a 4 psychliiiiiiiiiicide watch? 5 lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove 5 : It's the same area. Psych 6 him from the cell, of course, immediately. 6 ops is, they just get their clothing back. But 7 Notify psychology of what occurred. At that 7 they are still being watched. 8 point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, 8 MR. It's the same thing, 9 with an inmate companion watching him, but I 9 right? 10 would make sure, you know, we take all of his 10 : It's the same thing. 11 clothing, everything, and he would get nothing 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. 12 : They're still being watched 13 MR. : And how long does that normal 13 by an inmate companion. 14 suicide watch last? 14 MR. : Is there any other benefit to 15 : It can vary. 15 being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide 16 MR. : What's the shortest you've 16 watch versus psych observation - any benefits 17 ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? 17 to being iiiiiiiiiips? 18 : Maybe a couple of days, but I 18 MR. : Yeah. You have your 19 can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or 19 clothes. 20 three. Biiiiiibe a couple of days. 20 : You get your clothes. 21 MR. : Based on what we've found 21 : Your clothes. 22 out, it looks like this attempt was on the 22 : I mean -. 23 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from 23 : Was it - if it was any other 24 suicide watch and placed in psych observation. 24 inmate - would they have given back his clothes 25 : Right. 25 that fast? 23 24 1 ' I don't know. That would be 1 MR. Nope. 2 the psychiiiiiidepartment determination. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. : Okay. Did you - now, moving 3 MR. • You can go ahead. 4 forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, 4 MR. : Now, let's go to August 9th. 5 that he was removed from psych observation, and 5 Were ou working on August 9th, 2019? 6 he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall 6 : I think I was off August 9th. 7 hearing why he was removed from psych 7 MR. : Okay. Let me just -. Would 8 observation 8 you be -. Would your name be on the -? 9 : No. 9 : On the roster? 10 MR. -- and placed back in the 10 MR. : On the roster. 11 SHU? 11 : Yeah. I would be on the 12 : No. 12 roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left 13 MR. Do you have any questions? 13 early August 9th. Or something. I can't 14 MR. Yeah. Just to go back, 14 remember. 15 file back to So, I knew 15 MR. : I'm going to provide you a 16 you - when asked - you said you weren't, you 16 copy of Au ust 9th -- 17 knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of 17 : Okay. 18 a guy, but do you know of any instances where 18 MR. -- roster. MCC SHU roster. 19 he actuall did harm another inmate? 19 : Yes. 20 No. 20 MR. : If you can take a look at it 21 MR. No? 21 and let me know if you were on schedule. 22 No. 22 : No. I'm not on it. 23 MR. Great. Thank you. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : All right. Anything else on 24 MR. Okay. 25 the -? 25 MR. : And who -- EFTA00064271 25 26 1 MR. : Oh, sorry. 1 MR. : Where -? 2 MR. : -- where would that be 2 I would be under the SIS 3 listed? Sorry. 3 Lieutenant, if you -. Under the SHU 4 MR. : I thought you were going 4 Lieutenant. I would be under the SIS 5 to -. I thought we were just talking about 5 Lieutenant. 6 this. This next one. Did you hear anything - 6 MR. : And there is - on that 9th, 7 just going back, before we talk about the 7 what does it state there? It says unassigned? 8 suicide watch, psychological observation room, 8 : Unassigned. 9 we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone 9 MR. : So, no one was working that 10 contacting the MCC and requesting that he be 10 day? 11 removed from sychological observation? 11 : No. I was the only SIS 12 : No. 12 Lieutenant. I'm trying to think. Yeah. 13 MR. : No? And you didn't hear 13 Nobody was in there that day. 14 that, like, for instance, his attorneys were 14 MR. : Can you just circle that for 15 trying to get him off of psychological 15 us? 16 observation, so that they could continue with 16 Sure. 17 their attorne /client visits? 17 MR. So, you were not here on 18 : No. I didn't hear. 18 the 9th, is what you are saying? 19 MR. : You never heard that? 19 No. 20 : No. 20 MR. Okay. 21 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we 21 No. 22 can move to the actual -. 22 MR. And no one was? 23 MR. : So, I showed you the August 23 Not in the SIS Shop. 24 9th roster. You said you are not on there? 24 MR. Oh, wow. Is that 25 : Can I -. Actually -- 25 abnormal, for being a Friday, without anyone 27 28 1 being in SIS? 1 MR. (Indiscernible *00:19:36). 2 : Actually, the SIS Technician, 2 -- on Friday. I can't recall 3 her days off is Friday and Saturday. 3 why. 4 MR. : Oh, wow. 4 MR. . Sure. 5 : And at the time, it was only 5 : But -. 6 two of usiiiiiiiiiin the whole area. 6 MR. : And who was the SIS tech? 7 MR. : So, there was only one 7 : Her name is 8 tech and lieutenant? 8 (Phonetic *00:19:43). 9 One tech and one lieutenant. 9 MR. 10 MR. : Would the SIA have been 10 Yes. 11 on? 11 MR. : All right. 12 : We didn't have one at the 12 MR. : But she wasn't here? 13 time. 13 No. She wasn't here. 14 MR. Oh, so it was literally 14 MR. : And do you recall that 15 just the two of you? 15 you actually - I know that the schedule says 16 Yes. 16 that - but do you recall not being here? 17 MR. : Okay. So, this wasn't, 17 Thinking that it was the day before. 18 then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was 18 Yes. 19 working? 19 MR. • Okay. 20 No. I normally -- 20 MR. : Put this here just in case we 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 21 need to go back. 22 *00:1iiiiiiiiii 22 MR. : Okay. 23 -- on a Friday, I would have 23 MR. : When did you first become 24 been on because she would have been off. So, I 24 aware that Epstein's cellmate, inmate 25 took off -- 25 was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00064272 29 30 1 : The day of the actual 1 MR. : What's a normal procedure, 2 suicide. 2 how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being 3 MR. : When you say actual suicide, 3 moved to court, or being transferred out? 4 which would be -- 4 : From court, you're saying? 5 : August 10th. 5 MR. : From court. Let's say -- 6 MR. -- August 10th. 6 : You're talking about court. 7 : Yes. 7 MR. - was 8 MR. : Saturday, when you came in, 8 MR. : Well, no, in this case, 9 that's when you learned -? 9 did you ever hear that actually never 10 : When I came in. Mm-hmm. 10 went to court, he actually was transferred to 11 MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, 11 another institution? 12 when you came in, what were you aware of why 12 : No. I heard he went to 13 was removed from the institution? 13 court. 14 : After speaking to him, they 14 MR. : So, even to this date -- 15 told me he got released from court. That's 15 And was released from court. 16 what I was told. 16 MR. -- to this date, did you 17 MR. : Who told you that he was -? 17 ever hear that, that he never went to court? 18 : Not sure. 18 He actually was transferred? 19 MR. : Not sure. Okay. 19 No. I've never heard that. 20 : I can't remember. 20 MR. : Oh, you've never even 21 MR. So, your understanding was, 21 heard that? 22 went to court and he just didn't come 22 No. 23 back? 23 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because 24 : Right. That's what I 24 that's what happened. He never went to court. 25 understand. 25 He was transferred. 31 32 1 I still don't know. 1 MR. : And it says, transfer of 2 MR. : That's what 2 inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. 3 (Indiscernible *00:21:24). 3 This email was sent to them. If you take a 4 : That's (Indiscernible 4 look at the title, the subject, it says, 5 have -- 5 "Transfer of inmates." 6 MR. : Sure. 6 Yeah. 7 -- assumed that he went to 7 MR. : And it says, "Transfer of 8 court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he 8 prisoners from -- 9 made bail or something -- 9 : I see it. 10 MR. Okay. 10 MR. -- to GO. (Phonetic Sp. 11 -- and he got released from 11 *00:22:10 12 court. 12 : To GO. And inmate 13 MR. But that's what everybody 13 is stated on this. So, he never -. It's 14 was sa in that he actually went to court. 14 not that he went to court. He actually was 15 : Yes. 15 transferred to GO. Do you know what the 16 MR. Okay. 16 procedure is for something like that? If an 17 MR. : So, based on what we - our 17 inmate is to be transferred, how do they pull 18 investigation, I'll show you an email. This 18 the inmate out? How do they let the SHU know 19 email is dated -. This is from 19 that the inmate needs to be pulled out? 20 (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:46), from the U.S. Marshal 20 : Normally, R&D would get in 21 Service. 21 touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in 22 23 .E MI Okay. 22 the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their : And it went to, it looks like 23 courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. 24 the em to ees at the R&D. 24 MR. : Is that known as a court 25 : Mm-hmm. 25 list? EFTA00064273 33 34 1 : A court list. 1 Right. 2 MR. : And that list comes over, and 2 MR. : And when, as an SIS, 3 they let the SHU officers know? 3 would you get a copy of those court production 4 Yes. 4 lists 5 MR. : So, they prepare them. And 5 No. 6 on that - if that he was leaving - what would 6 MR. -- or productions? No? 7 it state on the -? Have you ever heard the 7 No. 8 term, WAB? 8 MR. Okay. 9 Yes. 9 MR. : Do you know, I mean, it's on 10 : What does -- 10 the top, do you ever -. Do you recall, after 11 : Yes. 11 this investigation started, after Epstein's 12 . WAB mean to you? 12 death, ever seeing that court list for that 13 : With All Belongings. 13 day? 14 MR. : And what is your 14 No. I've never seen it. 15 underiiiiiiiilif it states that? 15 MR. : If we wanted to obtain a copy 16 : To me, With All Belongings 16 of it, do you know if there's any way we can 17 can mean anything. You know, where is he 17 obtaiiiiiiiiilif that? 18 going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? 18 : I would think it should be in 19 MR. : But does it mean that he's 19 the Receiiiiiiind Discharge area. 20 comm a back? 20 MR. : And that's something that 21 : To me, no. 21 they -- 22 MR. : And your understanding is, if 22 The R&D. 23 it sa s WAB he's leaving for certain? 23 MR. : -- if we asked, and based on 24 Right. 24 it, it said no one seems to have maintained a 25 MR. : Okay. 25 copy of that. It looks like they've printed 35 36 1 , and then they disposed of it. 1 You didn't ever maintain, you know, obtain that 2 : I don't know. 2 court list though? 3 Okay. 3 : I didn't have the court list. 4 MR. Was it kept, though, 4 MR. : Okay. 5 under your investigation, for when you went in 5 I don't recall having a court 6 on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, 6 list. No. 7 part of, like, anything that you would have 7 MR. And so, do you - if R&D 8 collected? 8 doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is 9 : Did I? I don't think I had 9 any way that we could get our hands on one of 10 the court list. 10 these court lists? 11 MR. . No? 11 : I don't know. I don't know, 12 : To be honest with you. I had 12 in SENTRY, because I don't deal with their 13 a lot of stuff. But I don't recall seeing the 13 functions. So, I don't even know if they were 14 court list. 14 able to - be able to go back. 15 MR. So, in the stuff -- 15 MR. : Yeah, no, they can't. 16 Oh. 16 They replace it every day. 17 MR. -- that you did, on the 17 Right. 18 10th, did you involve at all, did you look into 18 MR. Every (Indiscernible 19 it at all, leaving and Epstein not having 19 *00:25:14), so no one -- 20 a cellmate? 20 : See, I don't -- 21 : I think I did. I think I did 21 MR. -- is going to maintain 22 run his SENTRY_QA2trwork, once I got here. to 22 in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other 23 see where was IIIII. What happened with 23 email? 24 I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. 24 MR. : Which one? 25 MR. Okay. But you didn't -. 25 MR. : The one that they sent EFTA00064274 37 38 1 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was 1 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you 2 being transferred. 2 recall that anyone from upper management, or 3 MR. : Oh, no. I don't have that 3 even psych, mentioning that he was required to 4 email. I think that's separate. I didn't 4 have a cellmate? 5 print that one out. 5 : I didn't hear it, per se. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 6 But normally, when they come off of suicide 7 are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshal 7 watch, or a psych observation, they have to 8 Service - at least back then, I don't know if 8 have a cellmate. And psychology, usually 9 they still do this - but they would send out an 9 harbor on that. You know? They have to -- 10 email the day before, which would be sent to, 10 MR. : Why is it -- 11 like, all the lieutenants, and a number of 11 -- have a cellmate. 12 other people, for people who, the following 12 MR. -- why is it that they need a 13 day, are going to court or being transferred. 13 cellmate? 14 Are you familiar with that email that's sent by 14 : I don't want to guess, but I 15 the Marshal Service? 15 would say, even though, you know, an attempt 16 : I've probably seen it. 16 possibly was made, you want to prevent 17 MR. : Okay. But you don't 17 something ha going forward. 18 reall know what I'm talking about? 18 MR. : And do you recall - but you 19 : Oh, it -- 19 said you're not sure - but do you recall that 20 MR. : Okay. 20 there was a requirement for Epstein to have a 21 • -- I would have to see it. 21 cellmate? 22 To be honest with ou. 22 : Yes. I do recall them saying 23 MR. : Okay. 23 he had to have a cellmate. 24 MR. : I'm going to take a step 24 MR. : And that was by word of 25 back. When Epstein was brought out of psych 25 mouth? 39 40 1 By word of mouth. 1 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, 2 MR. : Do you recall who you heard 2 because he would know that he's leaving out of 3 it from? 3 the SHU. 4 : Let's see. I want to say III 4 MR. : And this is the August 9th 5 , who is the psychologist. I want to say 5 roster agiiiiiiiiliou take -. 6 said that he has to have a cellmate. 6 MR. : So, SHU Lieutenant 7 MR. : So, she probably came down. 7 was actuall off -- 8 Do you recall if she told other people in the 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 SHU, in ., * to that? 9 MR. -- on the 9th, as well. 10 : I don't know because I 10 : Okay. 11 wouldn't have been in the SHU. 11 MR. So, if he is off, then 12 MR. : All right. 12 who would then become the next person -- 13 : Sorry. 13 : The next person -- 14 MR. : The reason I ask is, now that 14 MR. -- moving up? 15 we know that is leaving the SHU, right? 15 • -- would be the Operations 16 And he's WAB, that, and the court list comes 16 Lieutenant should been notified. 17 down, and our understanding is, on that court 17 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And who should have 18 list, it states WAB 18 notifiiiiiiiiiierations Lieutenant? 19 Mm-hmm. 19 : Normally, the SHU staff would 20 MR. -- and he's brought down to 20 say, you know, this guy left, and, you know, 21 R&D. And he's removed from the facility. 21 Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. 22 Whose responsibility would it have been, at 22 MR. And at what point -- 23 that point, to make sure that Epstein had a 23 So, I'm sorry -- 24 cellmate? 24 MR. • -- should the -- 25 : I would say the supervisor. 25 cellmate. EFTA00064275 41 42 1 MR. Eirhat's fine. 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : At what point should the 2 MR. : -- was there any specific 3 SHU staff have notified the Operations 3 person, during that time period, who was 4 Lieutenant? 4 considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 5 Immediately. 5 1 - but was considered to be the officer in 6 MR. So, as soon as that 6 charge? 7 persoiliiiiiiii -? 7 : Yes. It would been the SHU 8 : As soon as Mr. came out 8 number oniuilich would be Officer 9 that cell. 9 MR. IIIIII: . But what about, we 10 MR. Okay. And is it one 10 heard other people refer to as as, 11 person over another, within the SHU, that 11 though, the officer in charge. Because he's 12 should have told him? Or is it any one of 12 been in there the longest, at that point. 13 them? 13 : Yes. 14 No. 14 MR. : Have you ever heard that? 15 MR. Or all of them? 15 : Yes. 16 : I would say any one. 16 MR. : He would be the OIC? 17 MR. : Was there a person referred 17 : He was the OIC, probably for 18 to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during 18 the quartEL_Iald say, he was. 19 that time? Like, one specific -- 19 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And why wouldn't he be 20 : Yes. 20 listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the 21 MR. : -- person. 21 quarter? know? 22 : They do have, yes, the SHU 22 : He could have been on his day 23 OIC, yes. 23 off. I don't know. 24 MR. : I know this roster shows SHU- 24 MR. No, no. He was there. 25 1, SHU-2, SHU-3. But -- 25 And we heard that -- 43 44 1 Oh, he was? 1 MR. : With the court order. He 2 MR. : -- he's actually was the 2 knew -- 3 OIC. But he's not listed as one. 3 MR. • Court list. 4 : Oh, I don't know. I didn't 4 MR. : -- court list, and he knew 5 even see him as the number three. I don't -. 5 that was leaving. So, they packeilii his 6 I don't know. 6 stuff in a little brown paper bag, and 7 MR. But he should have been 7 retrieved Epstein from his cell, also, and they 8 listed as one because he was the quarter -- 8 both were transported on the elevator down 9 : If that was his -- 9 to ether. Epstein to attorney conference, and 10 MR. • -- post? 10 out. 11 • -- if that was his post for 11 : Okay. 12 the quarter, he should have been listed as the 12 MR. : And we know, in the elevator, 13 SHU number one. 13 too, there was a conversation about Epstein 14 MR. Okay. 14 needin a cellmate. 15 : Unless they did a switch, or 15 : Okay. 16 a mutual thin or somSetl i to that effect. 16 MR. : Now, being that 17 MR. : And , at that point, 17 escorted him down, and down, he was in the 18 in 2019, had enough experience in the SHU, as 18 19 the SHU OIC from your recollection? 20 Yeah. 19 20 1 elevator, and knowing that was in the elevator, is leaving, out of them two, should either of them have made a notification 21 MR. : So, the morning of, what 21 immediate) ? 22 happened based on our investigation, is Epstein 22 : Yes. 23 and his cellmate, were removed at the 23 MR. : Do you think they would have 24 same time. So Officer came in. 24 known that it was important that they made the 25 : Okay. 25 notification? EFTA00064276 45 46 1 : Yes. 1 it be a couple of hours, before the inmates 2 MR. : Why do you think that? 2 will come back up. 3 : If you had a conversation 3 MR. : So, this is, they were 4 about him needing a cellmate, that means - to 4 brought down any time between 8:00 a.m. and 5 me - you know that it was important for him to 5 8:30 a.m. 6 have one. And you knew that his - obviously - 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 Mr. was leaving WAR. And Epstein needed 7 !FIB So, when you say a couple 8 a cellmate. So, or I feel, like, right then 8 hours, we're talking about anywhere between 9 and there, the notification should have been 9 10:00 and 10:30 a.m.? 10 made. Even though he's in attorney conference, 10 : Yeah. I've seen inmates come 11 but his cellmate is leaving, lieutenant, we 11 up later. You know, an hour and a half, you 12 need a cellmate for him. 12 know, he didn't -. He's not leaving on a bus. 13 MR. : Is there any reason for them 13 Once they get everybody on the bus, they will 14 to believe that, even though it showed WAB, 14 go back uiliiiipecial Housing. 15 that - that for them to believe that 15 MR. : Now, if the inmate was not 16 would be coming back? 16 brought back up to the SHU, let's say by even 17 : I would say no. If it says 17 11:00 a.m., right? Because if they're 18 WAB, that's what it is. I would assume that 18 expecting that there is a possibility that the 19 he's not •con i back. 19 inmate might come back up, and it doesn't 20 MR. : Now, if, let's say they've 20 happen by 11:00 a.m., should they have made a 21 mentioned sometimes they bring inmates down to 21 notification? 22 R&D, and the bus doesn't come. Or they're not 22 : They normally would. And 23 going to court, and sometimes they come back 23 because they - I'm going to reach and say - 24 up. How lon does that process normally take? 24 they assumed he was leaving, because he didn't 25 : It happens. Hmm. I've seen 25 come back -- 47 48 1 MR. : I should clarify that -- 1 MR. : And he should have been 2 -- come by then. 2 notified, and what should have 3 MR. meant 3 done? 4 notification, should EMI or anybody in the 4 : He should have notified, of 5 SHU, at that point, at 11:00, notified the 5 course, his chain of command, which is the 6 superior, he , listen - supervisors - hey, 6 captain, hey, Epstein's cellmate has left, and 7 listen, is one, and Epstein is -- 7 he needs a cellmate. And that, also, we would 8 MR. : And not 11:00. Just 8 have told psychology, you know, Epstein's 9 during their shift. At some point, if they 9 cellmate left. He needs a cellmate because 10 left their shift at 2:00 p.m. without making a 10 somebody vetted the cellmates. So, I would 11 notification, should have they known by 2:00 11 say, I guess, they would go back to that 12 p.m., at the very least, that he was not coming 12 process of seeing who was a good fit for him. 13 back? 13 MR. : And if - what is your 14 E•bsolutely. 14 understanding - if that notification was never 15 MR. : Okay. So, at some point, 15 made up the chain of command? 16 prior to 2:00 p.m., a notification should have 16 MR. What's your question? 17 been made? 17 : Yeah. 18 Yes. Yes. 18 MR. : What is your understanding, 19 MR. : And you mentioned that it 19 if they never made -? Was somebody at fault, 20 should have been to the SHU Lieutenant. 20 in terms of -. I should clarii, If that 21 Lieutenant is not there. And it should 21 notification never got -. If never 22 have been the ops lieutenant. Who was the ops 22 told the ops lieutenant, and the ops lieutenant 23 lieutenant during that shift? The morning 23 never told the captain, right? When was the 24 shift. 24 next time they would have caught onto the fact 25 25 Epstein needed a cellmate? EFTA00064277 49 so 1 : Again, I would say somewhere 1 MR. : Okay. And then, would 2 between that shift, they should have made that 2 that go on again to the morning watch? 3 notification. If not, it would have went onto 3 Because, again, he didn't have a shift for 24 4 the evening shift, that he still was without a 4 hours. So, every shift, should have they made 5 cellmate. 5 that notification up? 6 MR. : And you said that the inmate 6 : I would say yes. 7 was vetted. So, could anyone have assigned a 7 MR. : Okay. And is it your 8 cellmate to Epstein? Anyone in the SHU 8 understanding that the operations lieutenant 9 assigned somebody to be Epstein's cellmate? 9 actually has that same court list, that they 10 : Normally, in a case where 10 would have Headquarters, that would have shown 11 they try to get that good fit, they would talk 11 him as WAB? 12 to the captain, who would have talked to 12 : The court list, yeah. 13 psychology, and they'll go through the SHU 13 Usually, it's in the lieutenant's office, in 14 roster to see who they think would be suitable 14 the morniii s. 15 to put him in with. 15 MR. : Okay. So, if says 16 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 16 that he actually knows that left, or 17 else on that? 17 thought he went to court, and didn't know if he 18 MR. : Yes. So, when you go to 18 wasn't going to come back, if he had that court 19 - you said the next shift -sowho -? So, 19 list, that said WAR, should have he referenced 20 you're saying that, after left, and 20 that, or looked at it? 21 his shift left, then the next shift in the SHU 21 : Right. 22 should have, then, made the same notifications 22 MR. : Yes? 23 up the chain of command? 23 : Yes, sir. 24 : If they're saying he didn't 24 MR. : Okay. So, is that a kind 25 have a cellmate. 25 of an excuse to say, for the operations 51 52 1 lieutenant, hey, I know left, but I 1 MR. Okay. And then, as far 2 thought he was coming back, and he - or I 2 as . Did everyone know who was at 3 didn't know if he wasn't coming back - and he 3 that time? Do you believ2_1b2liif._for 4 did not pass that information onto the next ops 4 instance, someone like a MI=, he sees 5 lieutenant. Is there - what is your opinion of 5 on the list, sees that he's WAB. Would 6 that matter? 6 he know that's Epstein's cellmate? It says 7 : My opinion of that is 7 he's from the SHU. He's WAR. Would he know 8 definitely, you know, something is wrong, 8 that that's Epstein's cellmate? Or do you 9 because if you have the court list sitting in 9 think that that notification would still need 10 front of you, it says WAB. And it means he 10 to be made from the SHU, for him to be able to 11 took all his belongings. You know, if it was 11 kind that? 12 court, it would sa court. 12 : I can't even say he should 13 MR. : Okay. And do you know 13 have known that that was his cellmate because 14 how, do the operations lieutenants actually 14 he's in a different area than the Special 15 look at that list? 15 Housing. 16 I can't speak for -. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. Are they supposed to? 17 : So, sometimes, you wouldn't 18 I would say yes. 18 know whose cell that up there, you know, up in 19 MR. Okay. 19 the Speciiiiiiiiiiii. 20 : Because you know who's moving 20 MR. : Okay. But if he says, 21 from the Special Housing. And some of the 21 now, SHU didn't tell me, that I knew because I 22 inmates that move actually are lieutenant 22 had the court list, and it says WAB, should 23 moves, where you have to go up and get them. 23 have he known, at that point, yes, I knew this 24 So, you're going to look at the court list to 24 guy hiiiiiiiiiind he was not coming back? 25 see who is moving. 25 : Yes. EFTA00064278 53 54 1 MR. Okay. 1 not in your ail. 2 I can agree with that. 2 MR. : Right. As far as other 3 MR. • Okay. Great. What do 3 people that could have made this notification, 4 you think the -? Would that court list stay in 4 what would the unit teams' responsibility be 5 the operations, or the lieutenants office, 5 for if one of their people who was assigned to 6 throughout the duration of the day, would the 6 SHU, left the institution? Should have they 7 next operation lieutenant that came on - which 7 been coordinating, or making any notifications? 8 I believe is - would that person have 8 : I'm not sure what role they 9 also had that court list? 9 play when the inmates leave the Special 10 : It normally stay in there for 10 housing, to be honest with you. 11 the day. On a clipboard. It usually would be 11 MR. You don't? 12 on a clipboard in the lieutenant's office. So, 12 : Yeah. I don't know what role 13 I don't -. I can't say that , you know, 13 they play. 14 looked at it, but it should have been there 14 MR. Okay. 15 when he came on. 15 : With their inmates. That's 16 MR. Should have he looked at 16 an issue, as far as them leaving. 17 it? 17 MR. : All right. So, for you, 18 : I could -. 18 though, you feel, like, the primary person that 19 MR. • And I'm asking you this 19 would be responsible would be the person who 20 as the SIS lieutenant. We don't know the 20 was actually with the inmate, who brought him 21 answer to that. So, that's why we're asking 21 down, and knew that he was leaving? 22 you. 22 Yes. 23 : A good lieutenant would. 23 MR. So, in this case, 24 MR. : Right. 24 should have made the 25 : Because you would know who is 25 notifications, it falls primarily on him. Is 55 56 1 that iiiiiiiiliould say? 1 MR. : -- could they have made 2 : I would say him and whatever 2 notification? 3 other officer did the escort with him. 3 Yes. 4 MR. . Okay. Fair enough. 4 MR. : And who came to the SHU after 5 : Because they know the SHU 5 that? 6 inmates. 6 . Ms. Noel. And 7 MR. • Right. Okay. 7 8 MR. : What about the officers in 8 MR. : And during this shift, should 9 the SHU, at that point? Let's say there was - 9 they have known also? Should they have made 10 how many officers that you mentioned? - 10 notification? 11 and who else were in the SHU? 11 : Yes. 12 : Yes. 12 MR. : Anything else on that? 13 MR. : In the morning shift. 13 MR. And they would have 14 14 known, I'm assuming, from doing rounds? 15 MR. 15 : From doing their rounds. 16 : Yes. 16 MR. And if they were -- 17 MR. : Should they have -. Would 17 Yes. 18 they have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? 18 MR. : -- doing rounds, they 19 : Yes. If they're working up - 19 would know there's no one in that cell? 20 yeah - I would say yes. 20 Yes. 21 MR. : And let's say, during this 21 MR. Okay. 22 shift, should they have understood - I know he 22 MR. : So, we can go into the 23 asked already - should they have understood the 23 rounds? 24 fact that, Epstein needed a cellmate -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 : Yes. 25 MR. Wind the counts. So, based on EFTA00064279 57 58 1 our - based on what we - in our investigation, 1 MR. : Except he was not keyed out. 2 we understood is, the 4:00 p.m. count, on the 2 This happened around 1:45 on August 9th, after 3 9th. The 10:00 p.m. count. 3 -. Except he was not keyed until after 4 : Mm-hmm. 4 midnight on August 10th. So, if he was removed 5 MR. : The midnight. The 3:00 a.m., 5 from the SHU, and he was placed in R&D dry 6 and the 5:00 a.m. counts were not done. 6 cell, who should have -? Who had the 7 : Right. 7 responsibility to key him out, at that point? 8 MR. : And if the counts were done, 8 off the SHU and place him in R&D? 9 as Agent just asked, if the counts were 9 : It would have been the counts 10 done at 4:00 p.m., would they have known that 10 and assignment to walk those in. 11 was not there, and Epstein needed a 11 MR. : That's a CNA? 12 cellmate? 12 : Yes. 13 : Yes. 13 MR. : I see. Counts and 14 MR. : What about at 10:00 p.m.? 14 assignment. And how would CNA have known that 15 : Yes. 15 he got moved? 16 MR. : All right. And the reason 16 : Well, normally, they would 17 that we were able to determine it, is also 17 make a notification, I would say, when he got 18 because of the fact that inmate was 18 to R&D, that, hey, we have this inmate here, in 19 removed from the SHU by . He was 19 the dry cell. 20 actually in the SHU viiiiiiilioom, and there 20 MR. : So, R&D should have notified 21 was an incident where witnessed him 21 counts and assignments? 22 possibly having contraband, so he removed him. 22 : Yes. 23 He called for a lieutenant, and put him into a 23 MR. : Was there any responsibility 24 dry cell in R&D. 24 for the officer who removed him from the SHU, 25 : Mm-hmm. 25 and brought him down? 59 60 1 : He could have, as well. 1 filled out. 2 Because you brought him down. And he's coming 2 : I've never seen it, to be 3 off of the SHU base count. 3 honest wisb_122. I've never seen that. 4 : What is -? He's coming off 4 MR. IIIIII: Have you ever heard of C.D.s 5 5 doing that? 6 : Right. 6 : No. 7 • -- so, at 4:00 p.m., the 7 MR. : Has there ever been any 8 count shoul d have been adjusted on the El, and 8 incidents in MCC regarding C.D.s pre-filling -? 9 also -- 9 : Not that I know of. 10 : Absolutely. 10 MR. : What about the count sheets? 11 MR. -- okay. Have you ever heard 11 Would they start the shift, they already know 12 of inmates pre-filling the rounds and count 12 what count is supposed to be there? 13 sheets? 13 : I've seen that. 14 : Inmates? 14 MR. : And what have you seen? 15 MR. : Oh. Sorry. Sorry. I 15 : Well, my experience being a 16 apologize. Have you ever heard of the C.D.s 16 lieutenant, and being in the control center, 17 pre-filling the rounds and count sheets? When, 17 taking the count, I have seen count slips come 18 let's just say the rounds there abouts 18 down to the control center, and I'm monitoring 19 (Indiscerni ble *00:43:25) of their shift. 19 the camera because I'm physically watching you 20 : Yes. 20 count. So, if I have your count sheet, and I 21 MR. : Right? And they go in, they 21 haven't seen you count yet, I'm discarding it, 22 have their round sheet. They expect to do the 22 and I'm calling you on the phone. How do I 23 rounds duri ng the certain times, so they go in 23 have your count sheet and you haven't counted 24 and they fi 11 it out for the whole shift. And 24 yet? 25 they try to do it during those times that they 25 MR. : Is that normal procedure as a EFTA00064280 61 62 1 lieutenant, when you're doing the count from 1 counseling. Basically, listen, don't send me 2 the control room, you pay attention to the 2 your count slip until you do your count. Next 3 monitor watch -? 3 time, I'm going to go to the next step, which 4 : I could only speak for 4 is discipline. 5 myself. 5 MR. : And have you ever told them 6 MR. : So, as your practice. 6 to go back and count? 7 : I do. 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And they followed it? 9 : Yes. 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : And you watch the C.O.s to 10 MR. : What is a lieutenant round? 11 make sure that they're doing the counts. 11 You understand it, you just mentioned that, 12 : Absolutely. 12 when you do a count -- 13 MR. : Which C.O.s have you seen 13 MR. : In the SHU. What is a 14 that haven't done that? That haven't done the 14 lieutenant round in the SHU? 15 counts but their count slips in. 15 MR. yeah. 16 IIIIIIIIII: Pfft. I can't give you exact 16 : In the SHU, with the 17 names because I've been on all of the shifts. 17 lieutenant rounds, you go up to SHU, as well as 18 MR. : And what happens if, in a 18 every other area, you see if there's anything 19 situation like that, if you see that, that they 19 abnormal going on in the SHU, you're going to 20 didn't do the count, but they send the slip 20 ask a question. You know, anything we should 21 down? What do you do? 21 know about, anything you got going on up there. 22 : I'm pulling. I'm doing a 22 You're just making sure that the officers are 23 verbal counseling. 23 doing their job for the shift, the inmates are 24 MR. : Verbal counseling. 24 getting their phone calls, if there's any 25 : Yes. I'm doing a verbal 25 inmates that haven't been showered, who may 63 64 1 shower. You're making sure those are done. 1 to door, and that's what a round is. Select 2 Normally, when you go in the SHU, you have 2 few of the lieutenants say, like, no, no, no, 3 inmates callin ou, once you get there. 3 no, that's not -. It's your discretion, if you 4 MR. : Right. 4 do that or not. So, are you kind of more of 5 : Once the door open. So, 5 that, that kind of side of it, it's their 6 you're going on the ranges and seeing what's 6 discretion? 7 going on with the inmates on the ranges. 7 : I'm more of -. 8 MR. : Now, are you supposed to 8 MR. : Because they have to sign 9 go from door to door, when your lieutenant does 9 when they - is it correct - that they have to 10 a round, though? Is the lieutenant supposed to 10 sign the round sheet -- 11 do a round just as, like, a C.O. that's working 11 : Yes. 12 the SHU does a round, go to each cell, to check 12 MR. -- saying they did a 13 and see -- 13 round? 14 To be honest -- 14 : So, normally, like myself, I 15 MR. • -- what's going on? 15 would be on the range, because the round sheets 16 -- I don't think there's 16 are on the range. So, you have to go on the 17 nothing in policy stating that we have to go 17 range to •si r Ser ound sheets. 18 door to door, and see each inmate, but you - 18 MR. : But do you have - but 19 most of the time - you will go on a range, I 19 just to go on the range, I guess you don't 20 would assume, because you want to see what's 20 necessaril have to look in -- 21 going on. With the inmates. Especially since 21 : Right. 22 it's the 22 MR. : -- their window. 23 MR. : So, this is where we get 23 Correct? 24 a lot of discrepancies. So, most of the 24 : Right. But if you go on, 25 lieutenants say absolutely, you have to go door 25 you're going to look door to door. I would EFTA00064281 65 66 1 think. 1 : I don't recall if that's what 2 MR. But this time, our 2 the polic sa s. 3 understanding is the round sheets were actually 3 MR. Okay. 4 kept on the officer's desks. On the desk out - 4 : Yeah. . So, not on the range. They all did it right 5 MR. : And just as far as 6 from where the desk was. Do you know if that's 6 clarification, do you know if BOP policy states 7 the case? 7 where the count sheets, or the round sheets are 8 : I don't. I don't know. This 8 supposed to be kept? Forget the fact that you 9 is the first I'm hearing of it. Because 9 have to look at it, but does it state that it 10 normally, the 're at the end of the range. 10 should be either kept on the officer's desk, or 11 MR. : Right. 11 at the end of the -? 12 : On the wall. So, that's 12 : I've never seen -- 13 going to force you, as a supervisor, to go on 13 MR. : Okay. 14 each range because you have to go to the end of 14 -- yeah. I've never seen 15 the rangeliiiiiiiii 15 that polic where it should be kept that. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 16 MR. : Okay. That's just practice? 17 there is maybe MCC didn't have this practice, 17 : Yes. 18 but do you know, as the BOP, as a lieutenant 18 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 19 round that's conducted in the SHU, and that the 19 on the rounds and counts? 20 lieutenant that actually signs the round sheet, 20 MR. : No. I guess I just, do 21 saying that they conducted the round in the 21 you think if the lieutenants that did the 22 SHU, do you know if BOP policy says that 22 rounds within the SHU, on August 9th, have any 23 they're supposed to go from cell, door to door, 23 exposure to the fact that IIIII was gone, and 24 and that's the reason why they put these sheets 24 should have they - when they did their rounds - 25 at the end of the ranges? 25 should have they known that, hey, this cell is 67 68 1 empty,Lestein's down at attorney conference, 1 MR. : August 8th. Okay. 2 and IIIII isn't here, so there's no one in that 2 : Yes. 3 cell. Should have they been, you know, should 3 MR. : Can you tell us what 4 have the known -? 4 transiiiiiiiiii 5 : Yes. 5 : I actually was reviewing the 6 MR. : Okay. 6 cameras from the SIS office, with one of the 7 : If you knew that on the count 7 associate wardens. We were looking for an 8 slip - I'm sorry - on the court roster that he 8 inmate, to see what time he was released, a 9 was WAR, and you see Epstein downstairs, then 9 cadre (Phonetic Sp. *00:50:30) inmate. We were 10 if you're paying attention, you would just -. 10 looking to see what time he was released 11 That's something you would have asked. Hey, we 11 because I was trying to backtrack, because I 12 got a cellmate for him yet? Who he's going 12 was going to interview the inmate, with an OIC 13 with. That t e of thing. 13 officer, about an incident. And I learned, 14 MR. : Okay. So, those 14 he's gone. And I said, gone where? Oh, his 15 lieutenants that actually did do the rounds in 15 release date - which, he was scheduled to be 16 the SHU, on that date, then they do have some 16 released - so, that made me go back to look to 17 fault in this, that was never replaced? 17 see, well, let me see what time they released 18 : I'm going to say yes. 18 him. And we were trying to pinpoint when he 19 MR. : Okay. 19 got released, so we could get in touch with 20 MR. : Anything else on rounds and 20 that halfway house. So, we - myself and the 21 counts? I'm movin onto cameras. 21 agent - was going to go to the halfway house, 22 MR. . Perfect. 22 to interview him. 23 MR. : Okay. When did you learn 23 And upon me going back to the cameras, I 24 that the cameras were not working at the MCC? 24 said, wait a minute, we don't have no cameras. 25 : August 8th. 25 I can't go back. So, of course, I clicked on EFTA00064282 69 70 1 several cameras, just to see if I could play it 1 MR. : And when will you be able 2 back on the cameras, and I noticed the cameras 2 to get access to that? 3 are down. I can't go back and rewind anything. 3 : I'm out of work. So, I can't 4 At that time, I called the communications shop, 4 access it. 5 and told them, I don't have no cameras up here. 5 MR. : Oh, we have heard that 6 You know, I can't go. I can't play it back. A 6 you were back this week. Is that not the case? 7 gentleman came upstairs and said, okay, I'm 7 No. 8 going to come and check the camera system, 8 MR. : Oh. 9 which he has the keys for, as well. And he did 9 : I'm not back this week. I 10 check it out, and he said, okay, the cameras is 10 only came for the interview. I won't be back 11 not working. I'm going to fix them. I'm going 11 for maybel_lils2a_iaother two to three weeks. 12 to do overtime or something to that effect. To 12 MR. IIIIIIIIII: When you come back in two 13 fix the cameras. At that time, I notified the 13 or three weeks, could you - I'll send you an 14 captain. 14 emailiiiiiiiiilfar as, like -- 15 MR. : Oh, you notified the 15 : I was going to say. If you 16 captain? 16 email me where to send it to, yes. 17 E•es. 17 MR. Fantastic. 18 MR. : That the cameras were 18 : So, at that point, I did type 19 down? 19 the memo that the cameras was done. 20 : That the cameras was down. 20 MR. : This is on the 8th? 21 And I wrote a memo - a memorandum - as well. 21 : On the 8th. 22 MR. : Oh, if you have that, can 22 MR. : Okay. 23 you please ive it to us? 23 : Yes. And I assumed that the 24 : It's - I can't get in my home 24 gentleman was going to stay and fix the cameras 25 drive - it would be on my home drive. 25 that day. 71 72 1 MR. So, and when iii ?y "the 1 the 8th, he was actually going to stay and fix 2 gentleman " are you talking about 2 it? 3 : Yes. 3 And do overtime to fix it. 4 MR. . Okay. So, that's the 4 MR. . Okay. 5 person who came in and checked? 5 : Because I let him into the 6 : Yes. 6 office, so he can go see what I was telling 7 MR. : Is it true that he can 7 him, the cameras is down. I can't play back. 8 only obtain access to the camera room, if an 8 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 9 SIS eiiiiiiiiiitually lets him in? 9 that's the first time it was noticed, that 10 : Absolutely not. He has the 10 those cameras were down? 11 keys. 11 : I can't say that that was the 12 MR. : At that time, he did? 12 first time that was noticed. 13 : The first door, which is the 13 MR. : Because our investigation 14 steel door with the Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. 14 shows that, as early as 7/29/2019, those 15 *00:53:21iiiiiiiiiito let him into that. 15 cameras stopped recording. So, there is about 16 MR. : That's what I mean. So, 16 half of the cameras in the institution that 17 he can't actually get -- 17 were recording, and half that weren't. They 18 Right. 18 were all live monitoring. 19 MR. -- in to the SIS -- 19 Yes. 20 Unless I -- 20 MR. : But did you find anything 21 MR. -- area 21 about that, or do you know anything about that? 22 -- let him into that part. 22 : No. No. It's not until I 23 MR. Correct. 23 was actually in the phone room, with the 24 Right. 24 agents, going through the cameras, that we 25 MR. So, he had told you, on 25 realized that they stopped recording. EFTA00064283 73 74 1 MR. Oh, so, you knew this on 1 W.Yes. 2 the 10th or something, you -- 2 MR. : Do you remember if, prior 3 : Yeah. 3 to the 8th, you ever were on the camera system, 4 MR. -- realized this -- 4 trying to rewind and watch? Because I would 5 Yeah. It was -- 5 think that's something you do kind of 6 MR. . -- after the 6 regularl . 7 investi ation? 7 : I can't remember if it was 8 Mm-hmm. 8 myself, or the SIS tech IIII, to be honest with 9 MR. So, you had heard, later, 9 you, because normally, if it's an incident and 10 that at 7 10 I need some video footage, I'll ask her to pull 11 Right. 11 the footage for me. You know? So, I can see 12 MR. -- is when -? Okay. 12 it. So, I can't recall if we had an incident 13 Mm-hmm. 13 where we iiiiiiiiii any camera footage. 14 MR. : So, you know that now, is 14 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 15 what ou mean by -- 15 remember if there was footage before that. 16 Yes. 16 WENo. 17 MR. -- between 7/29 and 17 MR. : Was there a tech III, or 18 August 8th -- 18 IIII, or something like that? 19 The 10th. 19 : Phone monitor. 20 MR. • -- you never -? 20 MR. . He was on -- 21 No. 21 : Yeah. III was the phone 22 MR. Okay. 22 monitor, which is a regular correctional 23 No. 23 officers. 24 MR. So, the 8th was the first 24 MR. Oh, so, he's not an SIS 25 time you found out? 25 tech? 75 76 1 : No. Hmm-mm. 1 MR. • -- the primary SIS area? 2 MR. : All right. But would he 2 Yes. 3 work in the SIS room? 3 MR. : Okay. So, do you know if 4 : In the phone room. 4 he waiiiiiiiiiion the 9th? 5 MR. Okay. 5 : I don't know if he was 6 He would be assigned, for the 6 working because he hadn't been in the phone 7 quarter, to the hone room. 7 room for some -- 8 MR. . That's in the SIS office? 8 MR. Would he be listed on the 9 : It's not in my office, but 9 10 it's a part of SIS. The phone room. It's kind 10 : -- let me look. Because they 11 of, like, next door to SIS. 11 were actually pulling him every day, re- 12 MR. : Is that the room where 12 assigning him to different posts. So, he is 13 the camera servers are located? 13 working, but they re-assigned him to another 14 : Yes. 14 post. 15 MR. : Okay. So, does he also 15 MR. : Okay. So, he wasn't - on 16 need someone from SIS to let him in, to be able 16 the 9th - he wasn't actually working? 17 to do hone monitors? 17 : If you see three Sally, 18 : No. 18 you'll see him there. 19 MR. : How does he get in and 19 MR. : And would that be because 20 out? 20 there was no SIS tech or lieutenant to allow 21 : He has the phone monitor 21 him into that room? 22 keys, half the keyring for him to get into the 22 : No. It would be because they 23 door. 23 were short-staffed. 24 MR. : To get into -- 24 MR. Okay. 25 : I'm sorry. The key. 25 : And they just re-assigned him EFTA00064284 77 78 1 to anotheiliiiiiiii 1 : I remember stepping to his 2 MR. : Okay. So, if says 2 office, which was right next door to mine, and 3 that he wasn't able to fix the cameras on the 3 notifying him that the cameras was down, that 4 8th because he didn't have the proper 4 I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, 5 equipment, and then he couldn't gain access on 5 and I can't. Actually, I had one of the 6 the 9th. Does that make sense? He wasn't able 6 associate wardens with me, as well. Who 7 to get in on the 9th because neither you or the 7 happens to be his supervisor, so. 8 tech were here. 8 MR. Who was that? 9 : He would be able to get in 9 Associate Warden IIII. 10 because my keys don't go home with me. He 10 MR. : was there? 11 would have just had to ask the captain for 11 Yes. 12 access to the SIS keys, and he would have been 12 MR. • Okay. 13 able to go into the office. 13 : It was me and her together, 14 MR. : And like you said, the 14 looking at the cameras. 15 captain actually knew that the cameras were 15 MR. Okay. Sound it wasn't 16 down? 16 it was actually 17 ME•es. 17 : No. It was me and AW 18 MR. : And you are positive of 18 And that was with Captain 19 that? 19 20 I'm positive. 20 Yes. 21 MR. : Did you have a verbal 21 MR. : Okay. So then, the two 22 conversation with him about it? 22 of them knew that the cameras were down? 23 : I had a verbal conversation. 23 : Yes. 24 MR. And can you recall what 24 MR. All right. And dos 25 that conversation entailed? 25 know if they had any conversations with 79 80 1 about a need to get them back up? 1 *00:58:47). 2 : I don't know if they had a 2 MR. Now is out, and he 3 separate conversation, but when I called Mr. 3 has acting in his life Phonetic 4 over to radio, Ms. IIII was still 4 Sp. *00:58:53), and and S standing there with me in the office. And she 5 both say, he didn't talk to me about working 6 was there with me when he came up to check, 6 overtime. Is there anyone else that he would 7 because we thought it was something that maybe 7 have been -? Well, because you said that he 8 he can just go in, and it allow us to go to the 8 told ou he was going to work overtime. 9 camera, and look for what we were looking for. 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : And when he mentioned the 10 MR. : Would you be an approving 11 whole I'll stay overtime, was she there when - 11 official for that? 12 was there - when he mentioned that he 12 No. 13 wouldiiiiiiiiliork overtime? 13 MR. : Would be an 14 : I can't remember because I 14 approvin official, though? 15 know he had to get in touch with his boss 15 : I'm not sure if she was over 16 first. 16 facilities, that department. So, I'm - no - 17 MR. Oh, okay. So -- 17 I'm not sure. 18 : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Okay. So, how did he 19 MR. • -- so, told us 19 know he would be able to work overtime to fix 20 that he was approved to work overtime on 20 it? 21 Saturday, to come in on Saturday and work. Do 21 I don't know. 22 you know who he would have contacted, in order 22 MR. You don't know? He just 23 to geiliiiiiiiiroval to work overtime? 23 said I'll work overtime. 24 : I don't know. I would assume 24 : Yes. 25 his boss, which was Mr. (Phonetic Sp. 25 MR. Okay. So, I'm assuming EFTA00064285 81 82 1 this was some time prior to 2:00 p.m. on the 1 MR. So, who would have had 2 8th, that you learned of this incident, since 2 access to that server rom? Now, in the MCC as 3 his siiiiiiiiiially ends at 2:00 p.m.? 3 a whole, who could have had access to that 4 : Yeah. It was a little after 4 server room, and would potentially taken it 5 1:00 p.m. 5 offline? 6 MR. Okay. And that was the 6 : I don't know who would 7 8th. But again, on the 8th was the first that 7 intentionally take it off, but I can tell you 8 you found out the cameras -- 8 the access would have been us, from the SIS 9 Yes. 9 shop. Hmm. The comm shop, which is Mr. 10 MR. : -- were down? Do you 10 and . And I'm not sure if their key - 11 know if there is anyway anyone could have 11 if that ke is on in the other key ring. 12 tampered with that system, to intentionally 12 MR. : So, is it really only the 13 take the cameras offline? 13 two of you, then, with SIS, then also tt!_phone 14 : I don't know. I don't know 14 monitor individual Is it III or M? 15 because nobody normally goes into - with the 15 16 service bar - besides him. Or there's one more 16 MR. Is that 17 communication tech, 17 18 MR. Was he there, though, at 18 MR. : Just 19 the time? 19 : I don't think Mr. III had the 20 No. 20 key on his ring because, if I needed to go, my 21 MR. So -- 21 ink cartridges for my printer and stuff was in 22 No. 22 there, as well. So, I would always lock the 23 MR. -- it was just - at the 23 door back, because we don't allow an officer to 24 time - it was only . Correct? 24 just walk where the server is at. 25 : Yes. It was just 25 MR. Okay. 83 84 1 MMilo 1 the time, though? 2 MR. : So, the server, actually, 2 : Okay. 3 was in a locked door? 3 MR. Is that right? 4 Yes. 4 I -- 5 MR. : So, really, III didn't 5 MR. Oh, you don't know? 6 have access to it? 6 -- I really don't know. 7 : Right. 7 MR. Oh, okay. No. That's 8 MR. But the tech would have? 8 why I was asking you. 9 Yes. 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. My understanding -- 11 Yes. She would. 11 don't know. 12 MR. : So, yourself, the tech, 12 MR. -- was that was 13 and 13 the onl tech at the time. 14 14 : Okay. I don't know if 15 MR. -- were really the only 15 was in the building, but I know is who I 16 three oeo 16 dealt with at the time. 17 17 MR. : Okay. And then, 18 MR. : Well, wasn't here 18 would have? 19 at the time, though. Correct? 19 : I think it may be on Mr. 20 : Probably Mr. I think 20 key because he's the facilities manager. 21 it's on his ke ring. 21 But again, I'm not sure what keys they have. 22 MR. But - but just to clear 22 MR. What about the captain? 23 that u was not -- 23 don't know. 24 : Okay. 24 MR. Now, when you -- 25 MR. wasn't here at 25 : I don't know what's on his EFTA00064286 85 86 1 keyrings. 1 MR. They would have had to -- 2 MR. -- now, you say you don't 2 If it was another -- 3 ever leave the institution with these keys, did 3 MR. -- actually break it? 4 you give them to the captain, or where are the 4 -- they would have to 5 keys? 5 actually break the keys. Myself, the SIS tech, 6 : No. They're located in the 6 all of our keys are in a locked box. So, if 7 control center behind a locked box. 7 it's an emergency, you would have to break the 8 MR. : Okay. 8 glass to retrieve our keys. 9 : So, I have to give them the 9 MR. : And in this case, you 10 key to open my locked box in order for me to 10 believe that would be an emergency, that they 11 retrieve Ills. 11 were to break the glass to fix the cameras on 12 MR. : Okay. And then, does 12 the 9th? 13 anybody else have that key, to open your locked 13 : Normally, yes. 14 box, to et those keys? 14 MR. So, you think that that 15 : No. 15 would have been appropriate action, to break 16 MR. : What are -? You said the 16 it? 17 captain does, though? I thought you said he 17 Yes. 18 could have one to the captain to get the keys. 18 MR. : Okay. And then, the 19 MR. : He can't get into my 19 captain does not actually have a key to get 20 locked box. He has his own locked box. 20 into the SIS office, though? 21 MR. : So, how would -. I think 21 No. 22 you -. I though you said that the captain 22 MR. Does anyone else? 23 could have allowed to get in -? 23 or -? 24 : He would have had them 24 : No. I think it's only on the 25 allowed to break the glass, and get my key out. 25 SIS staff, the phone monitor, the SIA, which we 87 88 1 didn't have one at the time. 1 I said, I wrote a memo. 2 MR. : Okay. But you're certain 2 MR. : And what happened with 3 that and , on the 8th, were aware 3 your memo? Who gets that memo? 4 that there was a camera issue, and not 4 My memo, I usually give it to 5 recording? 5 the captain. 6 Yes. 6 MR. Okay. And do you know, 7 MR. Do you know if they 7 in this case did you give it to the captain? 8 notified the warden? 8 : I did give it to him. I 9 : I don't recall. 9 might have emailed it, as well, to the -. I 10 • Okay. 10 would have to look at my email. I might have 11 : Because I notified the 11 emailed it as well. 12 warden. And he seemed a little -- 12 MR. And would have you -? 13 MR. Notified the warden when? 13 And I might have emailed it 14 -- on the 10th. 14 to I can't remember -- 15 MR. . Okay. 15 MR. Can you -- 16 : On the 10th. Once I came in, 16 -- exactly who I sent it to. 17 once the incident happened. And me and him was 17 MR. • -- you know, when you 18 having a conversation, and he was saying, and 18 come in, can you check your sent box, and see 19 there's no cameras working, and I said, what do 19 if on the - you would have done this on the 20 ou mean there's no cameras working? I said, 20 8th, sS thot i? 21 was supposed to fix the cameras on the 21 : It would have been on the 22 8th, and, you know, he was surprised, like, 22 8th. 23 what are you talking about? And I said, the 23 MR. : Okay. 24 cameras went down on the 8th. Warden and I 24 : Yes, 25 notified that the cameras was down. And 25 MR. : So, you would have - it EFTA00064287 89 90 1 sounds, like, potentially - hand-delivered to 1 : No. I did the memo on the 2 him? 2 8th. 3 3 MR. Oh. So, that's where, 4 MR. : And emailed, or both? Or 4 when you say ou're not 100 percent sure -- 5 I mean, one or the other? 5 If I -- 6 : Normally, because he's next 6 MR. • -- right, you're not -- 7 door, I would hand deliver him stuff. 7 -- emailed it to him, I'm 8 MR. : Okay. 8 saying to 9 : To be honest. And sometime, 9 MR. : -- but you're 100 percent 10 I would email it to him if his door is closed, 10 sure iro .ovided it to him? 11 and I don't see him. Or don't know if I'm 11 : Yes. And I notified him, 12 going to see him before I leave. 12 word of mouth that the cameras was down. 13 MR. : Okay. But you are 13 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay, and that - sorry - 14 positive, on the 8th, you gave him that memo, 14 that's where I just want to make sure I'm 15 one way or the other? 15 clearing that up. So, you know for a fact you 16 : Yeah. I'm almost - though, 16 gave him that memo. You just don't know if you 17 I'm not going to say 100 percent sure - but I 17 gave it to him, either by hand -- 18 know I verbally told him that the cameras was 18 Or email. 19 down. 19 MR. S: -- or email. 20 MR. : Are you 100 percent sure 20 Yes. 21 that there was a memo, though? 21 MR. • Okay. 22 Yes. 22 Yes. 23 MR. : But you may - when you 23 MR. : But it's definitely, he 24 say you're not 100 percent sure - when else 24 got it? 25 would have you potentially done that memo? 25 : Yes. 91 92 1 MR. Perfect. Okay. But 1 speaking to I just know -- 2 regardless, both and knew -- 2 MR. : No. When ou verbally 3 That the cameras -- 3 spoke with , though, and about the 4 MR. -- verbally, and 4 situation, did you say, I notified , he 5 knew s ecifically, because she was -- 5 said he'll take care of it, or anything like 6 Because she was with me. 6 that? 7 MR. • -- involved. 7 Yes. Yes. 8 : Right. She was with me. 8 MR. : Okay. So, you did tell 9 Yes. 9 them that that he would be fixing it. 10 MR. Okay. And was she 10 IIIIIIIIII: Yeah. Well, she was on the 11 involved at all, with those discussions with 11 phone -. She was standing next to me when I 12 12 was on the hone talking to Mr. 13 : I can't remember if she 13 MR. . Okay. 14 stayed with me. I think she walked away. 14 Mm-hmm. 15 MR. Okay. 15 MR. : What about the captain, 16 : Because we couldn't get what 16 though? Did he know? 17 we needed, as far as footage. 17 No. He wasn't near me. 18 MR. Were they both under the 18 MR. : Did he ask, like, is 19 impression that was actually working on 19 to fix it, or anything like that? 20 the camera system? 20 : No. He didn't -- 21 Hmm. 21 MR. : Did he say anything? 22 MR. : Like, did they ask, well, 22 Well, what 23 are you going to take care of this, or anything 23 -- he didn't ask. 24 like that? 24 MR. -- what was his response 25 : No. I don't remember them 25 to you telling him that the cameras were down? EFTA00064288 93 94 1 : He asked me, did I notify 1 : I can't recall. 2 them, and I said es. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : That was my question. 3 I can't recall. 4 I'm sorr 4 MR. And did ever come 5 Okay. 5 back and tell you that he couldn't fix it that 6 MR. So -- 6 day, on the 8th? 7 I apologize. 7 : No. He told me that on the 8 MR. -- so, he did know that 8 10th. 9 9 MR. What did he tell you on 10 : Yes. 10 the 10th? 11 MR. was notified? 11 : Once I walked into the 12 Yes. 12 Special Housing area on the 10th, he was there. 13 MR. Okay. Go ahead. 13 I don't know if he was working that day. But 14 MR. : Was the captain surprised the 14 he was there, and when the door opened, you 15 cameras were down? 15 know, my response was, well, what happened to 16 : I don't know if he was 16 the cameras? And he said, oh, that's what I'm 17 surprised because it's not, like, it's not 17 here for today. Which was two days later. I'm 18 normal. Sometimes, they do go down. You know? 18 here today to fix it. But I guess they pulled 19 It's our job to notify who we need to notify to 19 him, and put him on the post, or something to 20 bring them back up. But -. 20 that effect. And I said, but you told me you 21 MR. : Do you recall his reaction? 21 was going to fix them on the 8th. And he was, 22 Like, did he state,gt yeah, it must be fixed 22 like, I couldn't fix them on the 8th. I can't 23 today? Make sure takes care of it. 23 remember why he said he couldn't. But I think 24 What was his exact reaction to that 24 he responded to me before I could even ask the 25 notification? 25 question, once he saw me because I was a little 95 96 1 taken back that the cameras were down. Because 1 in. And he went in, and he came back, and he 2 I assumed they was going to be fixed on the 2 said, yeah, they're not recording, and he made 3 8th. 3 a phone call, or he walked away one, and he 4 MR. : Okay. 4 said, I'm going to stay and do overtime, 5 MR. ran I ask you, when you guys 5 tonight. 6 were - you and AW - were reviewing 6 MR. And he did specifically 7 footage, aniiiiiirealized it wasn't working, 7 say "tonight„? 8 you called . What was reaction 8 : Yes. 9 to fiiiiiiiiiiithe cameras were not working? 9 MR. Okay. 10 : He said he was going to come 10 MR. : And if he did stay, stay 11 down and take a look at it. 11 overtime, that would be on his webTA? 12 MR. : Did he mention it was an 12 MR. • Well -- 13 ongoing - it was already an issue, he was aware 13 It should be. 14 of it, or was that the first he was hearing 14 MR. It should be. 15 about it? Do you recall? 15 MR. • -- well, no, we know he 16 : No. He didn't -- 16 didn't. But -- 17 MR. : No? 17 MR. Okay. 18 -- he didn't say. He just 18 Okay. 19 said, okay, I'm going to come take a look at 19 MR. : -- as far as, if both you 20 it. 20 and the other SIS tech left, would he have been 21 MR. : And then, he came down, both 21 able to still stay in, on the 8th, in the 22 of you guys were in the room, and he tried to - 22 camera room to be able to work on it? 23 ? 23 : Yes. 24 : No. I wasn't in there with 24 MR. Okay. 25 him. I just opened the door so he could get 25 : Yes. Because it's been times EFTA00064289 97 98 1 that he needed to do work, and I needed to go 1 I can't remember what 2 home. And the captain would say, okay, well, 2 happened that da 3 leave your keys with me, you know, so he could 3 MR. And what -? 4 have access. 4 Normally, I'm there between 5 MR. • Okay. 5 2:00 -. More closer to 3:00, I'm leaving. So. 6 : To the room. 6 MR. : Okay. So, if you both 7 MR. • So, when you left that 7 left, though, at 2:00 or 3:00, and he said he 8 day, did you check back in with at all, 8 was coming back that day to fix it, how would 9 to sa , like 9 have he done that? 10 I sure didn't. 10 : Because I would have spoken 11 MR. -- hey. You did not? 11 to the captain and said, hey, needs to 12 : I didn't. 12 get in the com room. 13 MR. Okay. And do you know 13 MR. Do you remember, did that 14 what he did after you told him I'm going to 14 conversation occur? 15 take care of? Do you know what he did? 15 I honestly don't remember. 16 E.4o. 16 MR. Okay. You don't 17 MR. : No. Did he stay in the 17 remember. 18 room, thou he -? 18 : No. 19 : No. He left out the room. 19 MR. Okay. 20 He left out the room. 20 MR. : Nice Vision has that 21 MR. : All right. And then, did 21 administrative feature. Nice Vision is the 22 you leave before the other tech, on the 8th? 22 camera -- 23 : I would have left probably 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 after her, because she leaves at 2:00. 24 MR. -- system, right? That 25 MR. Uh-huh. What time? 25 administrative feature is called Supervision. 99 100 1 Do you recall that? 1 MR. : But not the SIS Shop? 2 : Hmm. 2 : No. 3 MR. : Well -. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. There was a couple 4 MR. So -- 5 different 5 No. 6 MR. Name 6 MR. • -- and is 7 MR. • -- names, for different 7 basicall who ou're saying? 8 applications, but there is one application 8 : I don't know. I don't even 9 called Supervision, and that you might be able 9 know if would have Supervision access 10 to log into Supervision and see if the recorder 10 because -. I don't know. I would think, if 11 errors are actually recording. Do you know if 11 you say Si.", it would be upper -- 12 you got access to that? 12 MR. : Yeah. Supervision 13 : No. I have - mine is SIS 13 doesn't mean super -. It's not a title for, 14 lieutenant access so. 14 like, somebody in the -. It's a title for the 15 MR. : Right. 15 app. So, like, there's an app that says, like, 16 MR. : Who had administrative access 16 you know, these people are granted access to be 17 to the camera system? 17 able to review and rewind, but then there's 18 Meaning that Supervision? 18 another a -- 19 MR. : Supervision. Who could go 19 : Oh. 20 in, control the cameras, or take cameras 20 MR. : -- that allows you to 21 offline? And mess with the cameras. 21 actually check to see if things are running 22 : I don't know. I would say 22 properly, and recording, an it's just called 23 computer services have access, and probably, I 23 Supervision. 24 would say, facilities managers should have 24 : Oh, okay. 25 Supervision access. 25 MR. That doesn't mean -- EFTA00064290 101 102 1 Then that would be -- 1 : If I tried to rewind, it 2 MR. : -- that you're a 2 wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It 3 supervisor. 3 would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know 4 : -- that would be - I would 4 that it's a problem, even if it's not working 5 say - that would be , because that's his 5 at all. Or something is wrong with it. 6 area, the cameras. 6 MR. : Did that - on the 8th, 7 MR. Okay. And do you know if 7 when ou were looking - were there any red X's? 8 anybody else would have the ability to do 8 : I don't recall if -. Because 9 things like that, to take, you know, recorders 9 it's a lot of cameras, and they're in different 10 on or offline, or to at least check their 10 places. So, I don't recall there being a red 11 status with the camera system? 11 X. 12 : I don't know. If it is, it 12 MR. : But just to -- 13 would be facilities shop. 13 On any of them. 14 MR. So, but primarily, 14 MR. : -- circle back. What 15 would be the erson? 15 tipped you off was with you and trying to 16 : Mm-hmm. 16 go back and review? 17 MR. Okay. 17 Yes. 18 Yes. 18 MR. And that's where you said 19 MR. • Not you, though? 19 20 No. 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : And in no way, while you 21 MR. • -- why can't I do it? 22 were -. Although, the only thing that would be 22 Mm-hmm. 23 able to tip you off, if things weren't 23 MR. • Gotcha. 24 recording, is if you started trying to rewind, 24 MR. : And prior to that day, you 25 and it wasn't rewinding. 25 don't recall when the last time you guys tried 103 104 1 to review it was, right? 1 to do whatever he's doing with the servers, you 2 : No. I don't recall. 2 know, I wasn't standing there, you know, saying 3 MR. : Okay. So, but it had been a 3 what are ou doin or, so -- 4 little bit. It had been a little while? 4 MR. And I know we're talk -- 5 : Yes. 5 -- but daily, they should 6 MR. : Okay. Anything else on the 6 have checked. 7 cameras? 7 MR. -- I know we're talking a 8 MR. . I think that's all. 8 long time ago now, but do you remember, prior 9 MR. Okay. 9 to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I 10 MR. : That's great information, 10 think the information that we have suggests 11 that we didn't know that before. I didn't know 11 that the camera servers went down on the actual 12 that that's how we found out that the cameras 12 July 29th 13 were offline -- 13 Hmm. 14 Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- of 2019. So, there 15 MR. : -- was basically your 15 is, like, a - more than a -- 16 review. How often should have been 16 Week. 17 going in to check those servers to make sure 17 MR. : -- week -- 18 that the . were online? 18 Yeah. Yeah. 19 Daily. 19 MR. : -- do you know if he was 20 MR. . : So then, would you know 20 actually going in, at that time, for that week 21 if he was? 21 period, checking in on the servers at all, at 22 : I can't say he was checking 22 this -? 23 daily. I know that he was up there quite 23 : I know he entered the area. 24 often. But I can't even say that he was 24 But I don't know if he checked the servers 25 checking the cameras because, one I let him in, 25 while he were back there. But I know he was EFTA00064291 105 106 1 entering the area. 1 2 MR. . Okay. 2 : Okay. 3 MR. : What else is in that area? 3 Okay. 4 : lust the servers in there. 4 -- a long time ago. 5 And ink cartrid es. At the top. 5 So, next topic? 6 MR. : And that's on the third 6 Mm-hmm. 7 floor? 7 : Okay. So, what was your 8 : It's on the third floor. 8 understanding about why Epstein was not in his 9 MR. Okay. 9 assigned cell? Were you aware that he was - 10 MR. : And then, nothing else is 10 when they found him - and he was not in the 11 stored. Is there evidence stored in there? 11 cell that he was assigned to in the system? 12 No. 12 : No. I learned that later on, 13 MR. : For some reason, we were 13 that -- 14 under the impression that SIS stored evidence 14 MR. : What did you learn? 15 there. 15 -- that he was keyed to one 16 : There's no evidence in there. 16 cell, but he was actually living in another 17 It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before 17 cell. So, I don't know where they changed his 18 I was born. 18 cell at. 19 MR. : And I think said 19 MR. : And is this because the cell 20 that there was maybe, it's like a hallway, and 20 rotations that happen in the SHU? 21 there's, like, some evidence, some old 21 Right. 22 evidence, or evidence there. 22 MR. And who would have been 23 : Not where the servers are. 23 responsible to make sure that this, once the 24 But it's some file cabinets, where the servers 24 cell rotaiiiiiiiiiined 25 are. And I think that's maybe some archive SIS 25 MR. : That's not the reason. 107 108 1 So, let's not go down that path. So, did you 1 : Yeah. It would be the OIC. 2 learn how that happened? How he was keyed into 2 MR. : Okay. And so, would that 3 one, and not in another? 3 be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is 4 No. 4 there one overall OIC? 5 MR. : No? Okay. Did you hear 5 : There is one for each shift. 6 -? Does this refresh your memory at all, like, 6 MR. : Okay. So, on that note, 7 he was initially placed into one cell, when he 7 is it more for, like, the morning watch, the 8 came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, 8 day watch, or the evening watch that would be 9 but then, the CPAP (Phonetic Sp. *01:16:21) 9 responsible for that change? 10 machine didn't actually reach into there, so 10 : No. Whatever shift he was 11 they had to switch him to another? 11 moved on, that OIC should have made the change. 12 No. 12 MR. : Okay. Okay. And at this 13 MR. : No? So, you never heard 13 point, if the change wasn't made, is there a 14 anything about that? 14 way for us to know when that occurred? When 15 No. 15 they actually moved him from one cell to 16 MR. • Okay. Go ahead. 16 another cell? 17 MR. So -. 17 : No. The only way you would 18 MR. : Who would have been 18 know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, 19 responsible for making those changes in the 19 rewind and see. 20 system, to make sure that he's in the actual 20 MR. . To see, you know -- 21 cell where he's supposed to be there? 21 Mm-hmm. 22 : Normally, the SHU OIC make 22 MR. : -- when that actually 23 the changes. 23 happened. But the cameras weren't actually 24 MR. So, it wouldn't be the 24 working 25 lieutenant? It would be the OIC? 25 : Right. EFTA00064292 109 110 1 MR. -- from 7/29, and this 1 areas. 2 happened on 7/30. There's no way, at this 2 MR. : But there should have been 3 point? 3 cell searches done, by the C.O.s, at least five 4 No. 4 times? 5 MR. Okay. 5 Yes. 6 No. 6 MR. Per shift? 7 MR. Co ahead. 7 Yes. 8 MR. Next level? 8 MR. On day watch -- 9 MR. Sure. 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. : Cell searches. How often are 10 MR. • -- and night watch? 11 they supposed to do cell searches in the SHU? 11 No. On day watch -- 12 You're taking me back-back. 12 MR. Day watch and evening -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 13 -- an evening watch. 14 : There is - I want to say they 14 MR. -- watch. 15 have to do a set amount. I don't know if it's 15 MR. All right. Well, 16 three or five. It was five when I was an 16 evening. Evening watch, right? 17 officer. Per shift. They should be random 17 Yes. 18 cell searches. 18 MR. So, if they're doing 19 MR. : Is it of the general area, or 19 those, is it just as important to log those 20 actual cells that they're supposed to be 20 searches into the system? 21 searching? 21 ME•es. 22 : Actual cell searches. 22 MR. : So, if there is no cell 23 MR. : And is that five -? 23 searches actually being logged into the system, 24 : With the exception of the 24 on those dates is that a problem? 25 midnight shift. They usually do the general 25 Yes. 111 112 1 MR. Okay. And would you 1 pen (Phoniiiiiiiiii01:19:33) was not set up. 2 consider that like, a policy violation? 2 MR. : Well, let's ask her. 3 MEI•es. 3 What iiiiiiiiiiderstanding of what happened? 4 MR. : If it's not logged into 4 : That was my understanding, 5 the system, is it almost as if they never 5 that he made a hone call to his mother. 6 happened? 6 MR. : Have you learned anything 7 Yes. 7 since then? 8 MR. . Co ahead. 8 : No. Well, I did learn that 9 MR. : That's all I have. I know 9 his mother was deceased on the 10th. 10 you looked into the monitor, the phone call 10 MR. : And do you know who he 11 that Epstein made the night before, on August 11 actuaiiiiiiiiii? 12 9th, right? And what is your understanding of 12 : I don't. I don't. I 13 what transpired? Like, how did he make that 13 actually was present when we did get the 14 phone call? 14 number, and it NYPD, guy called the number 15 : My understanding is that his 15 back, but I don't know who it was. 16 unit manager gave him the phone call. On an 16 MR. He actually dialed the 17 unsecured line. He placed Epstein in the 17 phone? 18 shower area - that's what my understanding - 18 Mm-hmm. 19 and he plugged the phone into an unsecured 19 MR. To check to -? Rather 20 line, andliiiiihim a phone call. 20 than doing a search, he called the number that 21 MR. : And based on what we - based 21 they -- 22 on the interviews - it looks like Epstein asked 22 I think he did a search. 23 to speak to his mother. 23 MR. • -- okay. 24 : Right. 24 : I think he did a search. And 25 MR. : And he asked for his pack and 25 he called the number. EFTA00064293 113 114 1 MR. : From here? At the BOP? 1 I can't remember. 2 : No. I want to say he might 2 MR. : And is that the same 3 have called from his phone he had. 3 person, thou'h that -- 4 MR. : He had a cell phone? 4 MR. : You think? 5 : Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to say 5 : Yeah. 6 he called from his phone. 6 MR. : NYPD --- 7 MR. Was this in your 7 Yeah. 8 presence? 8 MR. -- detective. 9 : Yeah. It was. Yeah. I was 9 Because - yes - it was only 10 there. 10 one NYPD at the time. 11 MR. Did they bring their cell 11 MR. Okay. And it's 12 phones into the institution? 12 13 : We had - we got approval for 13 Yeah. 14 them to bring their phones in, because they was 14 MR. Okay. 15 doing an investi ation. 15 I think it was 16 MR. Oh, okay. 16 MR. Okay. Great. Who did 17 : Yes. 17 you say that actually provided him the phone 18 MR. And do you know if 18 call? 19 someone answered when he called? 19 : His unit manager. 20 : I want to say a female 20 MR. And who was that? 21 answered, but 21 His name is 22 MR. : Okay. Did he identify 22 23 himself? 23 MR. : And what is your 24 I can't remember. 24 understanding of what should have transpired if 25 MR. : Okay. 25 he gave him that phone call? How should have 115 116 1 that iiiiiiiiiirked? 1 MR. . You don't know if he did 2 : If he gave him a phone call, 2 or not? 3 it should have been on a secure line. Meaning, 3 I don't know. 4 the inmate's line. Because when it's on the 4 MR. Okay. Do you know 5 inmate line, you can listen to the phone call. 5 anything -? Did your investigation reveal 6 You know, go back. You can monitor it live. 6 anything that transpired during that call? 7 And it should have been recorded in the logbook 7 No. I don't know. 8 that he received the phone call to the number 8 MR. No. So, you never found 9 he receiviiiiiiiiiine call to. 9 anythin 10 MR. : And should have he sat 10 never found anything more. 11 there with him, while the call was being 11 MR. How serious of a 12 placed? 12 violation do you consider it, if the inmate had 13 : Yes. 13 - in this specific instance - both provided 14 MR. • All right. And do you 14 Epstein the phone call, and put him in the G- 15 know anything about there not being a logbook 15 tier shower, walked away, and not only walked 16 in titaipi_f2r those telephone calls? 16 away, but left the unit? And the inmate could 17 IIIIIIIIII: I know it was -. We were 17 then talk by himself. Is that a pretty 18 looking for logbooks. I can't remember if that 18 significant thing, or -? 19 book was one of them, to be honest with you, 19 : It is. Because it was on a - 20 because I collected so many. So, I can't 20 again - it was on an unsecured line. So, you 21 remember if that actual book was missing. 21 know, you can't get the recording back, even if 22 MR. Okay. And do you know if 22 you an emergency and you needed to step away 23 actually did monitor the call, and log 23 for a minute, you know, you still can go and 24 it? 24 listen back to that phone call, to see if 25 : I don't know. 25 anything transpired. EFTA00064294 117 118 1 MR. : Sure. And why is it? Is 1 have provided the phone to Epstein. I would 2 it, like, a potential danger to other inmates 2 have hung the call up. 3 in the facility, by being able to provide 3 MR. : Right. So, is that also 4 inmates these unsecured phone calls? 4 a prett bad security violation? 5 : I would say yes. 5 : Yeah. 6 MR. : So, it's a security 6 MR. : Okay. 7 matter? 7 MR. : Should he have verified who 8 It's a security issue. 8 was on the hone? 9 MR. And what is your 9 : Yes. 10 opinion on if, when says he's 10 MR. : Should he have asked for a 11 calling his mother, and Mr. calls the 11 name? 12 number that he gives him, which we don't have 12 : Yes. 13 the number for at the time, there's no list, 13 rI .: Was there a logbook, at that 14 and a male answers the phone. And then, he 14 point in the SHU? 15 provides Epstein with that call. What is your 15 : I don't know. I don't know. 16 thoughts on that as an SIS lieutenant? 16 MR. : Is there something called 17 : Okay. Can I -? Just 17 endogen (Phonetic Sp. *01:24:39) inmates? 18 rephrase it. He gave him the phone call, and a 18 Inmates. Now if -- 19 male answiiiiiiiiiihone call. 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : So, Epstein says, I'm 20 MR. -- can you -? 21 calling my mother. This is the number. He 21 MR. : What does that mean? 22 calls the number. Mr. says a male 22 MR. : Yeah. What does that mean? 23 answers the phone. And then provides the phone 23 : Endogen is inmates that, you 24 to Epstein. 24 know, don't have any money on their accounts. 25 : At that point, I wouldn't 25 They don't have no type of resources. No type 119 120 1 of money coming in, through family members, or 1 and listen to it with them? 2 anything to that effect. 2 : They do, but they shouldn't 3 MR. : Now, if an endogen inmate 3 allow it because it's a legal line. 4 wanted to make a phone call, what is the 4 MR. : Okay. So, really, the 5 procedure for that? 5 legal line is only supposed to be -- 6 : I'm not too sure how unit 6 ...Only for legal. 7 team deal with endogen inmate. 7 MR. : -- okay. So, not only 8 MR. : Okay. 8 was this not done properly, they should have 9 : I'm not too sure. 9 never provided Epstein a call from the legal 10 MR. : Is it - have you ever heard 10 line, is what ou're saying? 11 the procedure that, if an inmate doesn't any 11 : Right. 12 money in the pack and pen, they can't make any 12 MR. Okay. 13 phone calls, the unit team sometimes allows 13 MR. : Is there another line, or, 14 them to make a phone call on the legal line? 14 like, a pack and pen set up to utilize for 15 : I've never heard of that. 15 inmates that don't have any money, that want to 16 MR. : Regardless, if an inmate 16 make calls? Like, you know how pack and pens 17 is speaking on the legal line, it's always 17 are asst ned to each inmate. Right? 18 supposed to be -- 18 : Yes. 19 : A legal -- 19 MR. : Now, if it's an endogen 20 . -- monitored? 20 inmate, and they wanted to make a phone call 21 -- a legal phone call. Yes. 21 that's not legal, is there a special code that 22 MR. Where if it's in this 22 the unit team can use? 23 case, that an inmate that doesn't actually have 23 : I don't know. I don't know. 24 money, if they do allow it, they have to 24 MR. And if the captain, if there 25 monitor it. Correct? They have to sit there 25 was a conversation between the captain and the EFTA00064295 121 122 1 unit, with (Indiscernible *01:26:22) 1 happened? You know, with Epstein. And he 2 and the captain instructed him to monitor it, 2 said, Epstein tried to kill himself. So, I 3 and what does that mean to you? 3 said, okay. I got dressed, and I came up to 4 : That mean you should be 4 the institution. It's not until maybe I was 5 standing there, listening to the phone call. 5 here maybe about 45 minutes, when I learned 6 MR. : Okay. 6 that he was deceased, and then, everybody said, 7 : And you should be recording 7 wait, you didn't know? And I said, no, because 8 it in the to 8 I heard tried. So, and I remember saying, did 9 MR. : All right. Anything else on 9 he go to the hospital because try mean, okay, 10 that? 10 did we take him here? And when I got to there, 11 MR. : Hope. 11 like, no, he's in the hospital. Like, he's 12 MR. row, let's talk about August 12 deceased, and I was, like, oh. Okay. 13 10th. Right? When did you find out about Mr. 13 MR. Mit-hmm. So, when -. 14 Epstein's death? 14 MR. : Do you know if he was 15 : Maybe about 6:00 in the 15 alive when the first officer responded to him? 16 morning. I got a call at home. I got a call 16 E,h, I don't know. 17 at home, b the captain called me. 17 MR. : Do you have anything, any 18 MR. : Captain 18 investigative steps that you took reveal 19 : Captain called me. 19 anything about that? Like, life-saving 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 measures, like, to keep him alive versus bring 21 : And he said we have an 21 him back? 22 emergency. I need you to come up to the 22 : I don't know. Just 23 institution. And I said, okay. What happened? 23 overhearing that they did some CPR measures. 24 You know, I'm getting up now. And he said, 24 But I doniiiiiiiiiiknow who did what. 25 it's Epstein again. And I said, okay. What 25 MR. : Okay. 123 124 1 MR. : When you arrived at the 1 MR. -- and on the count 2 facility, around what time was it, 2 slips, did you find anything out about the 3 3 counts that were conducted, or not conducted, 4 approiiiiiiiiil: Maybe, I know it was before 4 that ir S 5 7:30. 5 : On the count slips, I just 6 MR. : And was he already gone, at 6 seen that they were filled out. They were 7 that oint? 7 filled out. And I think, I want to say the 8 : Yes. He was already gone. 8 10th was missing. Because everybody would run 9 MR. : And when you came in, what is 9 around, looking for the 10th count slip. I 10 the first ste you did? 10 can't remember what time. I think the 3:00 and 11 : I just started gathering 11 the 5:00, they were looking for. On the count 12 evidence. You know -? 12 slips. 13 MR. : Did you go up to the SHU? 13 MR. : When you said they were 14 : Yes. I went up to the SHU to 14 lookin for it where were they looking for it? 15 take whatever logbooks that was up there, and 15 : In the control center. 16 that I could find. I went to the control 16 MR. : I see. 17 center to look for the count slips, from the 17 : Because that's where the 18 night before, the 9th and the 10th. The warden 18 count sli s would be. 19 had took some of the count slips. He beat me 19 MR. : So, they went to -. And so, 20 to the punch. So, he did give me what he took 20 the captain, or the warden, went down to the 21 because it was -. Everybody was just trying to 21 control center, they were looking for the 3:00 22 gather up evidence, just -. 22 a.m. and the 5:00 a.m. count slips, and they 23 MR. : We're just trying to get a -- 23 couldn't find them? 24 MR. On -- 24 : I don't know who actually 25 MR. -- sorry. 25 went in the control center because it's my EFTA00064296 125 126 1 understanding they were looking for the count 1 MR. : Pulling stuff up? 2 slips before I arrived. So, what -. 2 : That, it was only the captain 3 MR. : Did you do any vetting of 3 gave me a few things. He was looking for his 4 the counts, though, to notice, like, if they 4 folder. His 292s and stuff to that effect. So 5 count slips matched up with the institutional 5 6 counts or an thing like that? 6 MR. : That would be Epstein's 7 : Did I do any? 7 folder? 8 MR. Yeah. 8 : -- Epstein's. 9 : No. I didn't. 9 : Okay. 10 MR. • So, you didn't notice. 10 : Right. So, whatever he found 11 Did you notice any of the count slips having, 11 with Epstein, he did give it to me. Whatever 12 like, any extra writing on them? Like, 95+1, 12 he found in the SHU. Again, the count slips 13 or 73+1. Or anything like that? 13 were in the warden's office, what they found. 14 : Hmm. I can't remember. 14 So, I did et from him. 15 MR. So, you don't remember. 15 MR. : What is the normal procedure 16 I can't remember. 16 if an inmate dies in prison, or, you know, a 17 MR. Okay. 17 suicide happens in prison, what is the normal 18 MR. Do you want to show that? 18 procedure on the actions to be taken? 19 MR. : No. I mean, yeah, if you 19 MR. : Well, prior to we get 20 want to, if ou have it. Sure. 20 into that, why were you all looking for the 21 MR. : We'll come back. So, I'll 21 countiiiiiiiiii 22 come back to that. I just had a few questions. 22 : That's, like, a procedure, 23 So, when you came in, people were already in 23 what we do, you know, we look at the count 24 the SHU, looking for stuff? 24 slips to make sure - especially with a suicide 25 : Yeah. 25 in SHU - you want to make sure that the count 127 128 1 was conducted. You're going to review the 1 know the 10th was the missing count slip. One 2 cameras and see that the count was conducted. 2 of them went missing or something to that 3 You know, it's just to make sure, basically 3 effect, that, you know, OIG kept calling me, 4 everybody is accountable, and do what they 4 and I'm, like, I'm looking for them, I'm going 5 needed to do. 5 through everything, I'm going through, you 6 MR. And did you do any of 6 know, we were trying to find. It was something 7 that, trying to ensure that those counts were 7 missing. I can't remember the timeframe, but 8 conducted? 8 it definitely was something missing, at the 9 : Well, it was no cameras, and 9 time. 10 I didn't do an investigation, because at that 10 MR. : But you didn't say, it 11 point, once we notify OIG and FBI, we knew that 11 eventually was found? 12 it would be their investigation. So -- 12 : I -- 13 MR. Right. 13 : Okay. And do you know -- 14 -- I did no investigation. 14 --I can't remember. 15 MR. . And do you know if the 15 MR. : -- so, when you came in, 16 counts were conducted? 16 right after you found out about the incident, 17 : I don't know. 17 did you come right to the SHU? 18 MR. . Okay. 18 Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Who was in the SHU, at that 20 MR. : So, now the procedures. 20 point? 21 MR. : Well, on the same note, then. 21 : I don't remember. It was a 22 Did the , eventually find the count slips? 22 lot of pl. 23 : They found -. They did find 23 MR. : When you say a lot of people, 24 -. I don't think the 10th was ever located. 24 like -? 25 It could have been. I can't recall. But I 25 : In and out of the SHU. Like, EFTA00064297 129 130 1 administration. Like, the captain, I think, 1 CPAP machine, and different stuff out of it, we 2 was up there at the time. Or I -- 2 did. And we inventoried it in SIS. 3 MR. : Was -. 3 MR. : So, that's a question. So, 4 -- I can't even remember what 4 when you -. It was locked. Since did someone 5 officers • there, to be honest with you. 5 go in, at that point, to take stuff out? 6 MR. : Who was in the cell, at that 6 : No. We didn't go in right 7 point? E stein's cell. 7 then and there. No. We roped it off with the 8 : Nobody. 8 yellow to e. 9 MR. : Nobody. Was that sealed off? 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : The door was locked. 10 : We roped it off with the 11 MR. : Do you know who locked it? 11 yellow tae. 12 : I don't know who locked it. 12 MR. : And then, of course, what 13 MR. : Okay. And why was the door 13 about the stuff inside the - before we go in 14 locked? 14 this room - what about the stuff in the 15 : I don't know, but I'm 15 officer's desk? Was stuff inventoried out of 16 assuming somebody locked it because they knew 16 the desks? Taken stuff, taken out. Like, any 17 it would be -. You know, we would do an 17 18 investigation on it. 18 No. 19 MR. : Do you think it was a 19 MR. : -- anything related to 20 possible crime scene? 20 Epstein. Like, you mentioned that the captain 21 : Right. 21 took the folder. Where was that folder -- 22 MR. : Okay. And they sealed it up 22 : No. 23 so no one came in and out? 23 : -- taken? 24 : Nobody came in and out. When 24 : We couldn't find -. They 25 I got up there, it was locked. We took the 25 couldn't find the folder. 131 132 1 MR. : Oh, they couldn't find the 1 And we inventoried it. 2 folder? 2 MR. : -- inventory was done by you, 3 : They couldn't find the folder 3 not the FBI? 4 at all. So, whatever paperwork he got was 4 : No. It was done by me. They 5 stuff layiiiiiiound. 5 signed off on it, well, as I was handing it to 6 MR. : So, he took stuff off the 6 them. I had everything on an inventory list, 7 deskslAgshigs like that? 7 of course. So, they were double checking what 8 1111111111: I'm - yeah - I'm assuming 8 I was giving them, and they signed off on the 9 that's where he got it from. 9 chain of custody. 10 MR. : Was an inventory made of 10 MR. : And that morning, the round 11 those stuff that he took out of the SHU? 11 sheets where did you find the round sheets? 12 Yes. 12 : So, someone gave me the round 13 MR. : Okay. What are the steps - 13 sheets. 14 as an SIS lieutenant - did you guys take any 14 MR. : So, it was not -? It wasn't 15 materials out of the SHU, as evidence? 15 in the SHU? 16 : What do you mean? 16 No. 17 MR. : Like, did -- 17 MR. : Okay. And Epstein paper. 18 : Find something? 18 You said you took anything Epstein related, 19 MR. • -- any paperwork related to 19 right? In a erwork. 20 Epstein, things like that, did you guys 20 Right. 21 inveniiiiiiiiiiing? 21 MR. : And, like, what kind of 22 : Everything related to him. 22 paperwork take? 23 Yeah. Because we brought it down to SIS. We 23 : Oof. I think I got, like, 24 turned it over to OIG. 24 one or two 292s. I may have. Whatever it was, 25 MR. : Okay. So, the -- 25 was very little. EFTA00064298 133 134 1 MR. Do you recall taking this 1 -- that was never -- 2 (Indiscernible *01:35:41) mandatory -? It says 2 MR. -- that provided -? He 3 mandatory rounds must be conducted every 30 3 provided you with some of this stuff, though, 4 minutiiiiiiiiiiein. 4 like, the 292s that you're talking about? 5 : Not, I've never even seen 5 : Yes. He gave me the 292s. 6 that sign. 6 MR. : And what is that? Is 7 MR. : So, you've never seen that? 7 that, like the feeding -- 8 No. 8 The feeding. 9 MR. : Okay. And do you recall any 9 MR. -- and the showers? 10 signs being in the SHU, regarding Epstein? 10 The showers. Yes. 11 : No. I don't recall. 11 MR. Okay. 12 MR. : Him needing a cellmate, and 12 MR. . But you don't recall this? 13 your rounds being -. So, you don't recall this 13 : I've never seen that. 14 in there either? 14 MR. : Was there any lists kept in 15 : No. I've never seen that 15 the SHU, to say any special needs for some of 16 sign. 16 the inmates? Like, if they are suicidal watch, 17 MR. : Do you know who collected 17 and things like that, is there any special 18 that, b any chance? 18 lists in the SHU for that? 19 : No. I don't. 19 : It should have been a hot 20 MR. : So, if you -. 20 list. What we call a hot list, that psychology 21 MR. Was it the captain that 21 would have put up there. Do you recall if 22 went in and collected a lot of this stuff? Is 22 there was one in the SHU, at that point? 23 the one that -? 23 : I don't know. 24 He did, but -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. And was he the one -- 25 : I don't know. 135 136 1 MR. And if there was one, where 1 MR. 2 2 would it have been kept? 2 Yes. 3 I would think it would have 3 MR. 4 been posted somewhere near the officer's 4 Mm-hmm. 5 station. 5 MR. Okay. Cool. 6 MR. : Okay. And what about the - 6 MR. : So, did you assist her when 7 now, let's go to his cell - who inventoried 7 8 everyiiiiiiiiilof his cell? 8 : Yeah. I was there. 9 : My SIS tech went in, and she 9 MR. -- when she walked in -. 10 took what has in there, which was, like, some 10 You both were. 11 letters he had. I think some pill bottles. 11 : Yes. 12 And the CPAP machine was in there. 12 MR. : What was your impression when 13 MR. : Did you assist your - sorry, 13 you saw it? Like, what did you see when you 14 I wrote the 'erson's name. 14 walked in? 15 15 : lust, it wasn't much in the 16 MR. 16 cell. It was just more, linen sheets, linen 17 : Yeah. 17 stuff. 18 MR. : Did you assist IIII? 18 MR. : Was there an excessive -- 19 : Yeah. I was up there. Yes. 19 Yeah. 20 MR. How do you spell her last 20 MR. -- excessive amount of 21 name? 21 linens and sheets? 22 • 22 Yes. 23 MR. : So, it's, I wrote it 23 MR. Did you inventory that? 24 IIII. And first name is 7 24 No. I didn't. 25 . Yes. 25 MR. Do you know around how EFTA00064299 137 138 1 many linens and sheets were in there? 1 MR. : Because we have pictures from 2 : No. I don't. 2 3 MR. But it seemed excessive, 3 MR. Who took the pictures? 4 though, for -- 4 Do you know? 5 For Special Housing. 5 Ms. 6 MR. -- right. 6 MR. Okay. Okay. 7 Yes. 7 MR. That's okay. 8 MR. : So, there were definitely 8 MR. Yeah. 9 more than should have been in there? 9 MR. : So, what I'm showing you are 10 I would say. 10 the pictures taken inside the SHU. 11 Do you know why that 11 : Okay. 12 case? 12 MR. : Is that Epstein's cell? 13 : No. 13 : This is -- 14 : What about the pill bottles? 14 MR. : On the top. 15 All those pill bottles, and you said you saw 15 -- yes. 16 medication things like that. 16 MR. And that's the -. You guys 17 IIIIIIIIII: I don't remember if they were 17 put the -- 18 empty, or if medication was in them. I know we 18 : The tape on it. Yes. 19 just took them. 19 MR. -- the tape on it, to make 20 MR. You start on them, 20 sure. 21 actually. 21 MR. Yeah. That's it. When 22 MR. : Yeah. I think -- 22 you sa ou 'u s, SIS did? 23 : Okay. 23 : Yes. 24 MR. . -- let me show you pictures. 24 MR. Yes. 25 : Sorry about that. 25 MR. Okay. 139 140 1 MR. Sorry. 1 someone else attempt to harm him? 2 Oh. 2 : No. lust the, like, the - 3 MR. • No, no, no. 3 just the CPAP machine with the cord. 4 MR. So, is this from the outside 4 MR. : So, was the cord not, 5 of his cell, the second picture? 5 like, disheveled, or out of place? Was it 6 Yeah. 6 straight from the machine, all the way to where 7 MR. With M? 7 it was oluaaed in? 8 This is the outside. Yes. 8 : I can't remember. 9 MR. So, what is this wire coming 9 MR. Okay. But there was 10 up? Is that the CPAP machine? 10 nothin 11 Yes. 11 I can't. 12 MR. Okay. And you said you 12 MR. • -- that indicated that he 13 removed it from the cell? 13 was strangled by anything other than the noose 14 : Yeah. We took the CPAP 14 that the found in there? 15 machine. 15 to. 16 MR. : Okay. And the CPAP machine 16 MR. : Nothing indicated that 17 only extends to right there? 17 the CPAP machine or cord was used? 18 : I can't remember where it was 18 : No. Hmm-mm. 19 located at. I just know she went, you know, 19 MR. No. Okay. 20 took it out. 20 MR. What happened to the CPAP 21 MR. : So, what -. 21 machine? 22 MR. . Was there - on the CPAP 22 : It's in the SIS shop. In the 23 machine and that cord specifically - was there 23 inventory. 24 any indication that he may have used that to 24 MR. Oh, it's still there? 25 strangle, to attempt to harm himself, or 25 : It should be still there. EFTA00064300 141 142 1 I've bend" for a while. But yes. 1 MR. : Now, this picture - sorry, I 2 MR. : Okay. But that was taken as 2 had to flip it a couple of times - it looks 3 a -- 3 like it's from the corner -- 4 : Yes. 4 : Right. 5 MR. : -- evidence? Okay. Now, 5 MR. -- looking into the cell. 6 we've seen a lot of the orange. What is that? 6 What are these things that's tied up on? 7 Is that sheets? 7 : This, and like these? 8 : They look like sheets. 8 MR. : Yeah. Is that just to hang 9 MR. : And if you notice, there's a 9 clothes? 10 mattress on the floor. 10 : They're clothes lines. They 11 : Yeah. 11 use them normally. Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Is that where Epstein slept? 12 MR. : Well, what about this? 13 : I don't know. 13 : I don't know. 14 MR. : Okay. Do you know if that's 14 MR. : So, there's a ladder here 15 where the found his body? 15 that goes uo to the second floor. 16 : I don't know. 16 : Right. 17 MR. : Okay. Okay. So, this might 17 MR. : Okay. And it looks like 18 be upside 18 there's a whole bunch of items on top. And 19 MR. • So, they were 19 between the materials that's on the floor, and 20 MR. I'll just -. 20 the materials on the bed, you said there was an 21 MR. -- were all the lines and 21 excessive amount of linen and -- 22 sheets, were they, then, if they weren't 22 : Linen. 23 inventoried were they all discarded? 23 MR. -- linen. Okay. 24 : I don't know. I don't know. 24 MR. Who would be responsible 25 MR. You don't know. Okay. 25 for providing a linen, or removing a linen? 143 144 1 : That would be the SHU 1 : I don't want to say the word 2 officers. 2 noose, but, you know, that's what it looks like 3 MR. Okay. So, people in the 3 to me. 4 SHU? 4 MR. : Okay. And where exactly on 5 E•es. 5 it, is this on the floor? Is that on the 6 MR. : And was that at all 6 7 questioned, like, hey, why was there someone's 7 I don't know from the angle. 8 linen in there? 8 MR. But you know of, would 9 : I don't. I didn't question 9 you know if this was the noose that was 10 them. 10 actuall 11 MR. Okay. 11 This was -. 12 : So, I can't -. I don't know 12 MR. • -- used -? 13 if anybodiiiiiiiiii. 13 don't know. I don't know. 14 MR. : Okay. And if the cell 14 MR. : Do you know if there were 15 searches were being conducted, would that be 15 multi le 16 the time that they would actually take -- 16 : I don't know. I don't recall 17 : Take everything. 17 seeing. No. I don't recall. No. 18 MR. -- the linen out? 18 MR. : And where is -? What 19 Yes. 19 happened to the noose? 20 MR. Okay. 20 : It's in the SIS shop. 21 MR. So, what are we looking at, 21 MR. : Okay. 22 at this picture? Is that the AED (Phonetic Sp. 22 Yeah. The SIS. 23 *01:41:43) machine? 23 MR. • Still to this day? 24 : Yes. 24 : It should be. 25 MR. : And what is this right here? 25 MR. : When was the last time you EFTA00064301 145 146 1 saw it there? 1 would be the erson to talk to about that? 2 : It's been a while. I've been 2 The responders. 3 out of work for some time. 3 MR. : Like, the first 4 MR. ..okay. 4 responders? 5 MR. : What is your 5 Yeah. 6 understanding of how the noose -? How they got 6 MR. As in, like, Noel and 7 Epstein down? Do you know if it was ripped, or 7 Thomas? 8 if it was cut? Or do you know anything about 8 : Yeah. The responders would 9 that? 9 have seen the condition of the cell. 10 : I don't know. Nobody never 10 MR. Okay. 11 said. 11 MR. : Now, this is a picture. It 12 MR. Okay. So, you never 12 looks like -- 13 looked at it. 13 The bottom of that. 14 MR. : Because no one said it to 14 MR. -- what is this right here? 15 you? 15 This is a 16 Right. 16 A mattress. 17 MR. Okay. 17 MR. -- is that another mattress? 18 MR. : But not when you were 18 Yeah. It look like it. 19 collecting this evidence, though, wasn't 19 Yeah. 20 clearly, you know? Do you know if anything was 20 MR. : So, there is two mattresses 21 still hanging from where he was hung from, or 21 on to of each other? 22 do you know if it was taken off of him after 22 Mm-hmm. 23 they -? 23 MR. : Okay. Let's go back 24 I don't know. 24 (Indiscernible *01:43:26). Another mattress on 25 MR. : You don't know. And who 25 the floor? Because I don't see two mattresses 147 148 1 here. Ri ht? 1 The inmates, I think, are 2 : No. That's only one. 2 allowed to have their medications. 3 MR. : Oh, that's the -- 3 MR. : It's not something where the 4 : Again -- 4 medical comes by? It's because they're in the 5 MR. • -- bottom one here. Okay. 5 SHU, medical comes by daily and gives them the 6 -- I don't know who took the 6 medication? 7 pictures. I know she took a set of pictures, 7 : They normally do, do a pill 8 and then when the FBI came in, they were 8 line dail . I don't know why he had -. 9 searching the cell, and they took a set of 9 MR. : Well, it's dependent on 10 pictures. So, I really don't know whose 10 the medication. 11 pictures those are. 11 : It is. 12 MR. : Is that two mattresses, or 12 MR. Correct? Some -- 13 just one mattress? 13 Yeah. 14 : It looks like one. 14 MR. -- some medication can be 15 One. Okay. But so, I 15 provided -- 16 thought this picture taken, another mattress 16 Because I've seen -- 17 was 17 MR. -- through self-care. 18 : Right. This look like two. 18 -- yes. Yes. 19 Of course well, it is two. So, I don't know. 19 MR. Right. 20 MR. 'I'll': And look at this pill 20 Yes. 21 bottles. There's different medications sitting 21 MR. Some needs to be provided 22 on the to bunk? 22 by the medical staff. 23 : Yeah. 23 MR. : And that's the picture of the 24 MR. : Are those things allowed in 24 noose. Something you guys took, or -? 25 the SHU? 25 : The one that we took. Yeah. EFTA00064302 149 150 1 MR. ..)kay. 1 MR. Okay. So, but IIII is 2 MR. : Do you know if this is 2 the one who took these pictures? 3 the same -- 3 : I don't know if these are her 4 Let me see. 4 set of pictures because the FBI took pictures, 5 MR. -- one that we looked in 5 as well. So, I don't know -- 6 the other picture, though? 6 MR. Okay. 7 : Not that. I don't know. 7 - if you have hers or 8 MR. : It looks like that. There's 8 theirs. 9 different pictures of the noose. 9 MR. I gotcha. 10 : Yeah. 10 MR. : Before the FBI got in, was 11 MR. : All right. And we've got a 11 anything moved in the cell? 12 picture of bed. With all the linen on it. 12 No. 13 Okay. 13 MR. : Okay. So, yeah. This is 14 MR. : And that's all the materials 14 the kind of overall picture, and this is where 15 that was on the top bunk. 15 it kind of, you know, looks like there's 16 : Okay. 16 definitely an excessive amount of linens. 17 MR. : Did you -. 17 Correct? 18 MR. : You didn't take these 18 On these pictures, yes. 19 pictures, h. Correct? 19 MR. : And is that a security 20 No. 20 issue if there is an excessive -- 21 MR. : Did you even go into the 21 Yes. 22 cell, at the time, to see all of this? 22 MR. : -- amount of linen? And 23 : No. They -. When the other 23 what is that reason that that would be a 24 agencies was there, and we were out. On the 24 security issue? 25 outside. 25 : Excessive. The inmates been 151 152 1 known, you know, and to start fires. Suicide 1 MR. : Okay. 2 inmates, that's excessive for them. 2 -- that's what you mean. 3 Definitel. 3 Yeah. 4 MR. : So, inmates that came off of 4 MR. : And she's still an -- 5 suicide watch, or is, like, an observation, 5 SIS. 6 they shouldn't have -? 6 MR. -- an SIS? 7 : No. They shouldn't have that 7 Yes. 8 much linen. 8 MR. Okay. So, she would be 9 MR. : Okay. You would - I know 9 really the person - she took photos - she would 10 you've been speaking - but you don't know where 10 be the person to ask about -- 11 exactly he hung himself, or where the body was 11 Yes. She did take photos. 12 found or an thing like that? 12 MR. -- these things? 13 No. I don't know. 13 Yes. 14 MR. SM : Do you know if - for 14 MR. • Okay. Thank you. 15 instance, this, this looks like potentially 15 Mm-hmm. No problem. 16 where he hung himself around - do you know if 16 MR. : Did she have any 17 this was placed back up there, or if that 17 involvement with investigation? Was she here 18 remained there undisturbed? 18 prior to our arrival? 19 : I don't know. 19 : I don't know if she was here. 20 MR. You don't know. Okay. 20 MR. Was that -? 21 So, where is now? 21 No. She wasn't here. No. 22 I'm assuming she's here. 22 She wasn't here. 23 MR. : Okay. So, she still 23 MR. • So, she came after -- 24 works here? 24 Yes. 25 Yes. Oh -- 25 MR. . -- you arrived. And did EFTA00064303 153 154 1 you immediately say, go take photographs, or 1 any videos. 2 what did ou tell her to do? 2 MR. : Okay. Nothing? 3 : We went up to do the photo -. 3 MR. : Oh, no. Okay. It sounds 4 Tape the door up. We went up to tape the door 4 like the FBI is the people to talk about, with 5 up. I don't remember at what point she took 5 the - as far as who went in there first, to -- 6 photographs of the cell. 6 Yeah. They went in -- 7 MR. : But it wasn't that day? 7 MR. • -- to take pictures. 8 : No. I don't think she went 8 -- we just escorted them up. 9 inside -. Because it was blocked off. So, 9 I escorted them and -. 10 nobody went inside that day. We just took the 10 MR. : Do you know if anything - 11 angle you see of the door. Just so we could 11 after they removed Epstein's body from the cell 12 show that we off. 12 - do you know if they anybody went back into 13 MR. : Did the FBI go in that 13 that cell? 14 day? 14 I don't know. 15 When they came, yes. 15 MR. : You don't know? 16 MR. : Okay. SIS did not go in 16 I don't know. 17 that day? 17 MR. Prior to the FBI going 18 No. 18 i n? 19 MR. : Just the FBI? 19 : Yeah. 20 Yes. 20 MR. : When Epstein was brought up 21 MR. : Okay. 21 to the hospital, do you know what he was 22 : Yes. 22 wearing? Do you know if there was an inventory 23 MR. : Was there video taken, or 23 stuff on the -? You know, the clothes that was 24 just..ict es? 24 on him. What happened to the stuff that was 25 : I don't know. We didn't take 25 inventoried? 155 156 1 : I don't know. 1 also. 2 : Was anything brought back? 2 MR. Did he also take a video, 3 : No. Nothing was brought 3 or just camera pictures? 4 back. But the disk with the pictures they took 4 Just pictures. 5 out there. 5 MR. : Do you know where those 6 MR. : Do you know, did you hear of 6 pictures are? 7 when R&D, was any R&D officers sent to the 7 On my home drive. 8 hospital? 8 MR. Okay. Is that another 9 : I don't know if the officers 9 thing that we can ask you to send to us, as 10 was there. The supervisor, Mr. 10 well -- 11 (Phonetic Sp. *01:48:57) went out to the 11 Okay. 12 hospital. 12 MR. : -- to make it a little 13 MR. : And when they go out on a 13 less, and then we'll send in an email out. 14 situation like this, do they go to the hospital 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 with an thin Keith them? Like cameras. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : Yeah. You took the pictures. 16 MR. : Is there a reason -? 17 And he - I think he did the fingerprints. 17 : (Indiscernible *01:49:37). 18 MR. : So, he did take pictures? 18 Oh, it's (Indiscernible *01:49:39). I was -. 19 : Yes. 19 Because I had a binder, too. I was -. I'm 20 MR. : It's on a camera provided by 20 just trying to brainstorm, see if I could get 21 MCC? 21 it to you guys while you're here. That's what 22 Yes. 22 23 MR. : And he took fingerprints 23 MR. : Is there a reason why 24 also? 24 - sorry - that went to the hospital, 25 : I think he did fingerprints 25 took pictures on his personal phone, and texted EFTA00064304 157 158 1 that over to the AW? 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 : I didn't even know he went to 2 : No. 3 the hospital. This is the first I'm hearing he 3 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 4 went to the hospital. 4 questions in re ards to that topic? 5 MR. : He said he was under the 5 MR. • Nope. 6 impression that the R&D did come in with the 6 MR. : Have you heard - did you hear 7 camera, but they left without taking any 7 anything about doors in the SHU being left 8 picturliaLthey took the camera with them. 8 unlocked? 9 IIIIIIIIII: I don't know why he was under 9 : No. 10 the impression because he brought the camera 10 MR. : Was there ever any issues 11 back, and I downloaded the pictures off of it. 11 about C.O.s possibly leaving the SHU doors 12 MR. : Is there any policy about 12 unlocked, the tiers doors unlocked, so it's 13 just anyone, you know, C.O.s, any BOP employees 13 easier to walk in and out? 14 taking pictures on their personal phone, for 14 : I don't know. 15 suicide or anyone like that? 15 !ill Okay. What about cell doors? 16 : You shouldn't be taking any. 16 Did you ever hear any rumors about possibly 17 MR. : Are you familiar -- 17 that cell doors in Epstein's tier was left 18 : Any pictures. 18 unlocked? 19 MR. : -- if there's any policy like 19 : No. I never heard it. 20 that? 20 MR. : What is your 21 : I don't know if it's a 21 understanding of how Epstein -? Of what 22 policy. I don't know. 22 happened with Epstein? 23 MR. : But as far as you know, you 23 : My understanding was, they 24 never of pictures? 24 found him, I guess sitting on the floor, with a 25 : From Mr. 25 rope around his neck. And I don't know who 159 160 1 went in the cell first. But I did hear was 1 : No interaction. I just seen 2 Mr. Thomas, Ms. Noel. I heard Lieutenant IIII, 2 him in attorney area because he did his 3 and I don't remember who it was from medical. 3 attorney visits pretty much all day. So, if I 4 MR. : As far as when he was 4 would walk by and see him, I will step in and 5 found, though, was it your understanding that 5 ask him was he okay. Normally, he will just 6 he did whatever happened to him, to himself? 6 give the thumbs up, and you know, I will walk 7 : That's what my understanding 7 away. But if I see him, I definitely will ask. 8 was. 8 You know, you okay, anything you need? And he 9 MR. Do you have any 9 will just throw the thumbs up. 10 information at all that would suggest that 10 MR. : Was he given any special 11 Epstein did not harm himself, and that someone 11 privileges here at the MCC? 12 else harmed him? 12 : Not that I know of. 13 No. 13 MR. : Being that -. What is your 14 MR. • No. 14 understanding about him having attorney 15 MR. Did he have any threats from 15 conference every day? Did you know that he was 16 other inmates? 16 in attorney conference pretty much every day, 17 I don't know. 17 from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.? 18 19 20 MR. MR. MR. Okay. Anything else? : Nope. : Did you ever interact with 18 19 MI Yes. : Was that something that was 20 afforded to other inmates? 21 Epstein while he was at the -? 21 : I've seen it done before. 22 : When I did the first suicide 22 MR. : Okay. 23 attempt, iiiiiidly. 23 : Yes. 24 MR. : After that. Have there been 24 MR. : So, it's happened in the 25 any interactions? 25 past? EFTA00064305 161 162 1 : Yes. 1 • No. I don't know what the 2 MR. : Okay. So, it's not just him? 2 plus one stands for. 3 : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : No. Do you know anything 4 MR. : Okay. Do you know which 4 about, like, ghost counting, or anything of 5 other inmates? 5 that nature? 6 MR. . No. We don't need to -. 6 : I've heard them ghost count 7 MR. Okay. 7 before. If an inmate was in medical during a 8 I don't know. 8 count. 9 MR. I got nothing else on the -. 9 MR. Would they put, like -- 10 MR. : So, these are - when we 10 One. 11 were talking about count slips previously - 11 MR. -- a plus one on the slip 12 this is what I was talking about. So, do you 12 if thiiiiiiiiiit counting? 13 see, all these other counts, this was the 10:00 13 : I've never seen. I've never 14 p.m. count on August 9th. All these other 14 seen a plus one when I've taken a count. 15 count slips have crosses all over them. 15 MR. Okay. 16 They're checking, you know, say, from our 16 : To be honest with you. I've 17 understanding, it says as one, d ft things come 17 never seeiliiiiiiiine. 18 in, the check them off. 18 MR. : And when you said that 19 20 21 22 SIM MR. Mm-hmm. : Well, these two that one 20 19 is from R&D, and one is from the SHU, one) they 21 don't have the check marks coming off of; and 22 you were handling the count slips, or collecting them, did you remember seeing anything like that, with the NS+1, or the -? I don't remember. 23 two) they ZA one, which is the SHU, says 73+1. 23 MR. You don't remember? 24 And the R&D says 9S+1. Do you know anything 24 I don't remember. 25 about that? 25 MR. Is that very abnormal to 163 164 1 you, that those things are on there? 1 MR. : And what do they teach you? 2 Yes. 2 Like, if you see something. If you see 3 MR. • Okay. 3 possible suicide. What is the C.O. supposed to 4 : Yes. I would have sent this 4 do? count sli back because plus one -- 5 : First, you're going to yell 6 MR. Or it -- 6 for help, or for a supervisor, but when you 7 -- doesn't tell me -. 7 have another staff member with you, you could 8 MR. -- it may have been the 8 open the door and attempt to free that person, 9 people that were doing the count, that wrote 9 if - for instance - if it's a noose or 10 it, is actually where the thought is. 10 something to that effect. 11 : Oh, I don't know. 11 MR. : They don't have to wait for 12 MR. But you don't know. 12 other C.O.s to respond? 13 I've never seen a plus one. 13 : Well, it is recommended that 14 MR. • Okay. 14 you have somebody with you. 15 MR. : In terms of, if there is 15 MR. : Okay. 16 possibly a suicide, is there, during training, 16 : It is recommended that you 17 are C.O.s taught what actions to take if they 17 have somebod with you. 18 think that there's a possible suicide attempt 18 MR. : Recommended, not 19 in a cell? 19 required? 20 : Yes. 20 : I don't think it's required. 21 MR. : What is the training? 21 MR. : Is there part of the 22 : We get suicide prevention 22 security part where it could be a rouse to get 23 training yearly, during annual refresher 23 you in and then they could overthrow you? 24 training, the psychology conduct mock 24 : Absolutely. Absolutely. 25 exercises. 25 MR. So, is that why -? So, EFTA00064306 165 166 1 our understanding was that it was actually a 1 watching him a little bit better, I think. 2 requirement that you're not supposed to go in - 2 MR. : So, do you think the main 3 3 reasons would be, if counts and rounds weren't 4 : By yourself. 4 being conducted, would that be a big factor 5 MR. : -- by yourself. 5 into lvi1 1 eas able to kill himself? 6 : lust in case there is a fake 6 : Yes. I would say so, because 7 attempt or something to get in you. 7 if you know nobod is walking around. 8 MR. : Anything else? 8 MR. : What about the fact that 9 MR. : Nope. 9 he didn't have a cellmate, and he was supposed 10 MR. : I got nothing else in my line 10 to have a cellmate? 11 of questiosmiii 11 That, as well. 12 MR. : Great. Yeah, no. So, 12 MR. Do you think one of them 13 there is no, nothing for you to believe that 13 is more important than the other? Or do they 14 Epstein did anything other than take his own 14 go hand in hand? 15 life? 15 : I think they go hand in hand. 16 E.o. 16 MR. Okay. So, they're both 17 MR. : Okay. And then, that 17 as e uall 18 these other things were just systematic 18 Yes. 19 failures. What do you think overall led to 19 MR. : -- as important. Is 20 Epstegiiiiiiiiible to take his own life? 20 there anything else, aside from those two main 21 : I want to say the systematic 21 issueiiiiiiiiiiu think led to Epstein's death? 22 failures, the breakdown with, you know, 22 : I really can't say. I don't 23 although we don't know the previous attempt, we 23 know. 24 don't know the logistics, right? So, if we 24 MR. : Okay. Anything that we 25 know we had this inmate, we should have been 25 didn't ask you, that we should know about? 167 168 1 No. You guys pretty much -- 1 MR. -- initialing and dating. 2 MR. Yeah. 2 And toda 's date is -- 3 -- much asked -- 3 • The 23rd. Correct? 4 MR. No. I know we 4 MR. -- correct. So, 9/23/21. 5 -- everything. 5 Oh, I feel special. I got a 6 MR. -- we covered a lot. 6 new pen. Oh. 7 Great. 7 MR. • Oh. There goes that. I just 8 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 8 had the other en. Okay, there you go, sir. 9 the time to talk to us today. 9 Yeah. 10 : Yeah. 10 MR. I apologize. 11 MR. : Can we just have -- 11 Okay. 12 No problem. 12 MR. And it goes government pens. 13 MR. -- her initial? 13 MR. Anything else? 14 MR. Yeah. 14 MR. No. 15 MR. Okay. So, the thing 15 (Indiscernible *01:59:01). 16 that, we just - so that we know we talked, that 16 MR. (Indiscernible *01:59:15). 17 all these have to get attached to the 17 MR. Okay. Thank you very 18 recording. If you could just initial. For 18 much. 19 instance, this pack. Just initial the top 19 E•eah. No problem. 20 photograph, because there's anything -- 20 MR. : Is that all of it? The 21 : Okay. 21 things we covered. 22 MR. : -- so you don't have to 22 MR. : I'm just looking for -- 23 go through none of them. But the things that 23 MR. You have the most -- 24 we discussed, if you don't mind just -- 24 MR. : -- oh, that's everything. 25 : No problem. 25 MR. . -- beautiful handwriting EFTA00064307 169 170 1 I think I've ever seen. It's like calligraphy. CERTIFICATE 2 : Oh, really? I thought it I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 was, like, chicken scratch and all over the represent an accurate transcript of the 4 place. electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 MR. No. And once I saw it, I before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 was, like, wow. That is pretty impressive. Inspector General in the matter of: 7 : Okay. 8 MR. Okay. You want to end Interview of 9 it? 10 MR. : Yeah. So, we've going to end 11 the interview. The time is 11:19 a.m. on 12 Se tember 23rd, 2021. This is Special Agent Transcriber 13 . I'm ending the interview. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00064308

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