EFTA00064311

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED LAMINE N'DIAYE SWORN STATEMENT OF LAMINE N'DIAYE OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 MR. The recorder is on. My 1 As well as -- 2 name is , and I am a Senior 2 UNKNOWN MALE: 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 3 MR. -- Mr. N'Diaye's 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? 5 York Field Office, and these are my 5 MR. 6 credentials. 6 First name 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. Mm-hmm. 7 MR. Thank you, sir. Who is 8 MR. : This interview with 8 representing Mr. N'Diaye. This interview will 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - is it 9 be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 10 Lamine? 10 . could everyone please identify 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Lamine N'Diaye. 11 themselves for the record, and spell your last 12 MR. : Is being conducted as 12 name? To start a ain I am DOJ/OIG Senior 13 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 13 Special Agent, . M-A-T-U-L-E- 14 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 14 W-I-C-Z. 15 Today's date is October 27th, 2021, and the 15 MR. : This is DOJ Special Agent 16 time is 1:53 p.m. This interview is being 16 . And these are my 17 conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? 17 credentials. 18 MR. M.15. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. And I am -- 19 MR. : 515? 19 MR. : I can't -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Lamine -- 21 UNKNOWN MALE: Madison Avenue. 31st 21 MR. : I can't show you any 22 floor. 22 credentials. 23 MR. : Okay. 515 Madison 23 MR. N'DIAYE: N'Diaye. First name 24 Avenue, 31st floor. New York, New York. Also 24 MR. : Okay. 25 present is DOJ/OIC Special Agent 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Lamine, L-A-M-I-N-E. And EFTA00064311 6 1 last name N'Diaye, N-, as in Nathan, 1 MR. : -- as I say -- 2 apostrophe D- as in , I-A-Y-E. 2 MR. : But ou are -- 3 MR. • Thank you, sir. Do you 3 MR. : . I'm his 4 happen to one -- 4 lawyer. 5 MR. : I still don't know how he 5 MR. -- perfect, and we're in 6 pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm 6 your office. 7 so arrogant that I don't carry identification. 7 MR. : Right. 8 You know what I mean? 8 MR. This is an official 9 MR. : No. That's fine. 9 DOJ/OIC investigation into the death of inmate 10 MR. : Yeah. But you are sitting 10 Jeffrey Epstein and the circumstances 11 down here, you are willing to pay the fee. 11 surrounding it, and you are being asked to 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 12 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 13 MR. : You know who I am. 13 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 14 MR. : So, I am looking at Mr. 14 the DOJ/OIG? 15 N'Diaye's law enforcement officer credentials. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes, I will. 16 And it has a picture. And a signature of the 16 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 17 gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you, 17 the form that we have to do all interviews, 18 sir. And his attorney, do you mind - and 18 interviewees. 19 again, it's 19 MR. • Is that form B? 20 MR. 20 MR. This is the OIG form III- 21 MR. 21 226/2. 22 MR. : . And I'm sorry, I 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 don't have -. I really -- 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 24 MR. No. That's quite all 24 MR. : But it says is - I'm 25 right. 25 going to read it for you - United States 7 8 1 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 1 to make a statement and answer questions. No 2 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 2 promises or threats have been made to me, and 3 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 3 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 4 Basis. It says, "You are being asked to 4 used against me." If you would like to take a 5 provide information as part of an investigation 5 look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if 6 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 6 you want your attorney to look at it, he may, 7 General. This investigation is being conducted 7 as well. 8 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 9 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 9 MR. : You can sign where it 10 performance failure, and security failure." 10 says "Employee Signature." And then, also 11 And this is what we are writing for everyone 11 write your name. I did read it verbatim. 12 that we speak to, just because we're looking at 12 MR. : I'm sure you did. Okay. 13 it as a -- 13 There is no lace that said attorneys -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 MR. • No, no, no. 15 MR. : -- whole of what 15 MR. -- signatures. 16 happened. "This is a voluntary interview. 16 MR. • It's not for you to sign. 17 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 17 It's for him, myself, and the witness. It's 18 questions. No disciplinary action will be 18 just if you wanted to review it, or ask any -- 19 taken against you if you chose not to answer 19 MR. : No, that's all right. 20 questions. Any statements you furnish may be 20 MR. : -- questions about it. 21 used as evidence in any future criminal 21 MR. . That's all right. I do have a 22 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 22 question. 23 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Where do you want me to 24 section. It says, "I understand the Warnings 24 sign? 25 and Assurances stated above, and I am willing 25 MR. : In other words, if you say to EFTA00064312 9 10 1 him -- 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the 2 MR. : Oh, so, where it says -- 2 Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing 3 MR. : Right side. 3 my name. 4 MR. -- "Employee Signature." 4 MR. : Oh, one thing. So, 5 MR. : Do you have sex with ducks? 5 ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at 6 And so, I'm not going to answer that question. 6 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, 7 That's the - he can't get in trouble for that? 7 as you saw, to which my body is falling apart. 8 MR. : I won't be asking that 8 I had severe arthritis in my neck, and it's 9 question. 9 radiated down to my hands. I can't really 10 MR. : I mean, (Indiscernible 10 basically write. So, that's why -- 11 *00:04:18 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:04:20). 12 MR. : I'm not taking notes. But 13 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:04:22). 13 I have a War d memory, so, yeah. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *00:04:21). 14 MR. : All right. Great. 15 Okay. 15 , can ou just sign as the witness? 16 MR. : Under the interview that 16 MR. : Oh. 17 we are doing right now, for voluntary 17 MR. : Put your name and take 18 interviews, he doesn't have to answer our 18 care of the rest of the form. 19 questions. 19 MR. : This is Special Agent 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. Great. 20 . I'm signing as the witness, and dating 21 MR. : All right. So, thank you 21 it. 22 for signing that, sir. Did you have any 22 MR. : All right. Before 23 questions on the form? 23 starting the interview, I would like to place 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I don't. 24 you under oath. Mr. N'Diaye, can you please 25 MR. : All right. So, I'm 25 raise your right hand? 11 12 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Ym-hmm. 1 August. 2 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 2 MR. Correct. Okay. How long 3 truth and nothing but the truth during this 3 have you worked for the BOP? 4 interview? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: 30 years. And August, 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I do. 5 September, October, November. 30 years and 6 MR. Thank you, sir. What is 6 three months. 7 your current home address? 7 MR. : All right. And what is 8 MR. N'DIAYE: 8 your current position with the BOP? 9 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm the Warden at FCI Fort 10 MR. And what is your date of 10 Dix. 11 birth? 11 MR. : Okay. And what are your 12 MR. N'DIAYE: 12 -. You are the warden, you said? 13 MR. And what -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 14 MR. Jesus Christ. 14 MR. : Were you previously a 15 MR. -- what is the -- 15 regional director? 16 MR. I'm old. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: I was the deputy regional 17 MR. -- what are the last four 17 director in Philadelphia. 18 of your social securit number? 18 MR. : And how long have you 19 MR. N'DIAYE: 19 been the warden at FCI Fort Dix? 20 MR. Is it correct that you 20 MR. N'DIAYE: About two or three weeks. 21 were interviewed regarding the Epstein matter 21 Two weeks. 22 on August 19th, 2019? 22 MR. Oh, so -- 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 24 MR. : Or in August of 2019. 24 MR. -- it's a brand -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I know it was some time in 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. EFTA00064313 13 14 1 MR. -- new position? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: In New York. MCC. The 2 MR. N'DIAYE: It just got there. Yeah. 2 Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York. 3 MR. : Okay. How long were you 3 MR. : And how long were you a 4 the deputy regional director? 4 warden there? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I got it in February. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I came from May of - '17, 6 MR. : Okay. 6 '18 - May of '18 until, I forget the date, in 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Of 2021. 7 2020. I for it was. 8 MR. : Okay. And as the deputy 8 MR. : Okay. So, May 2018 to 9 regional director, what were your duties and 9 some time in 2020 -- 10 responsivities? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Monitoring he activities of 11 MR. : -- when you became the 12 the 20 institutions in the region, and, you 12 regional director? 13 know, managing the administratives within the 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No. The position 14 northeast region, and, you know, showing that 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 institutions were running in an orderly 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- prior to that, I was 16 fashion. 16 given -- 17 MR. : Now, did you supervise 17 MR. Okay. 18 the various wardens at those institutions? 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was a liaison to the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. I was over there. I 19 regional director. And then, I went into the 20 was the rating official on some of the 20 deputy position. 21 evaluations. 21 MR. Okay. Sounds good. And 22 MR. : And were you a warden 22 August of 2019, though, were you a warden at 23 prior to that position? 23 the MCC New York? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes, I was. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes, I was. 25 MR. Where were you a warden? 25 MR. Thank you, sir. And are 15 16 1 you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who 1 and at least about, like, providing the 2 was housed within the MCC in July and August of 2 information that they utilized to this report? 3 2019? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 4 MR. : No. Okay. Fair enough. 5 MR. : Yes. Okay. Great. What 5 After the incident occurred, what was your role 6 I have here is an after-action report that was 6 with determining what happened and what didn't 7 written by the BOP. 7 happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Nn-hmm. 8 2019? 9 MR. : Have you seen this? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I responded to the 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I have not seen that. 10 institution. At the time, when I got there, he 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 11 was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the 12 not something that you are actually familiar 12 unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, 13 with? 13 and I've always been trained, if it was a crime 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I am not. 14 scene, if you weren't particularly there, the 15 MR. : No one discussed any 15 least amount of people that, you know, that go 16 findings or anything like that with you? 16 through that crime scene, just don't go into 17 MR. N'DIAYE: No one. 17 it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, 18 MR. : All right. I'm going to 18 basically gathering information on what 19 set this aside just in case we need to, you 19 happened, notifying the region, notifying the 20 know, reference it. So, no role in the after- 20 FBI. The IG. 21 action report? 21 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Nothing. I wasn't 22 He's already got that phone call. 23 interviewed. I wasn't spoken to. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 24 MR. : All right. Do you know 24 MR. : Oh, yeah, you know what I 25 of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to 25 mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00064314 17 18 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: It was at the 2 MR. like, fuck it, I'm going to 2 time. 3 sell. Oh, okay. 3 MR. : Okay. And then, who was 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4 your executive assistant? 5 MR. : That's why we do it for the 5 MR. N'DIAYE: (Phonetic Sp. 6 next six months. 6 *00:10:21 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So, there was a lot of 7 MR. Oka 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 8 MR. 7 9 out the status of inmate Epstein. And things 9 MR. N'DIAYE: 10 more alon those lines. 10 MR. : Now, as part of our 11 MR. : Now, did you help with 11 investigation, we have to review everyone's 12 gathering information, up until a certain 12 emails, with regard to the incident. 13 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 or did you continue to gather -? 14 MR. : So, you mentioned that 15 MR. N'DIAYE: No, like, my boss was 15 you provided Mr. with timelines -- 16 calling me the regional director. They needed 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 17 information. You know, starting a timeline on 17 MR. : -- and things like that. 18 what happened. So, I had my executive 18 So, these are just some timelines from - again, 19 assistant there, and, you know, we would just 19 Mr. Epstein, I believe, was found around 6:33 20 gather any information, and just, you know, 20 a.m. 21 making sure that, you know, things that were 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 requested were being provided to them, any 22 MR. : In the Special Housing 23 information. 23 Unit. This is a timeline starting with, it 24 MR. : And who was the regional 24 looks like, August 10th, 2019, at 11:04 a.m. 25 director at the time? 25 So, a few hours after the fact. It just says, 19 20 1 it says, "See below. Just to ensure you know 1 So, I doniiiiiiiiiirecall the specifics. 2 what is being relayed to DOJ." Now, is this -. 2 MR. : All right. Well, rather 3 And then, what I have behind it is, these are 3 than get into each one of these, because it 4 different timelines that are all updated 4 will take too long, I'll just do the very first 5 throughout the day. 5 one. It says, it just says, "7/23/2019, at 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in 7 MR. : Here is one that was at 7 cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge 8 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one 8 staff initially." So, that is referring to the 9 was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 9 first initial attempt that Epstein may have had 10 12th. And then, the final one that we have is 10 on his life? 11 the August 13th. So, do these look like the 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Let me see which one. Are 12 timelines that you would have beeiliiiiering 12 we talkiniiiiiiiiilof, or -? 13 information and providing to Mr. 13 MR. : No. This is -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. It looks like it. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: This is July. 15 MR. : Now, where were you 15 MR. : -- yeah, July, 16 actuaiiiiiiiiining this information from? You 16 (Indiscernible '00:12:40) 27. 17 said was obtaining it for you? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, no. This is July. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: He was the exec, we recall, 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: This is the -- 20 specifics on how we get it, because there was 20 MR. : So, this is the -- 21 so much goin on. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, the -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- timeline. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: That, you know, I don't 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- this would -. We would 24 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you 24 have probably got this from the SIS 25 know, calling around and trying to find out. 25 investigation. EFTA00064315 21 22 1 MR. Okay. 1 MR. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: From that. I thought you 2 MR. N'DIAYE: This is not -- 3 were referring to the actual suicide. This is 3 MR. -- sent this to you. So, 4 4 he is saying -- 5 MR. No. What I meant was -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah, this thing. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- this is -. 6 MR. : -- "see below -- 7 MR. -- just the information 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 that was all ut in there, as far as -- 8 MR. : -- just ensure you know." 9 MR. : This was his first attempt. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: so, this is compiled off of 10 MR. -- well, it's everything. 10 several different documents -- 11 So, so, it starts July 23rd. The next one is 11 MR. : Okay. 12 July 29th. And it goes 8/9/2019. And then, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- which he condensed. 13 and then, until -. So, it's only - there is 13 MR. : So -- 14 only a few. That's why I was going to read it, 14 MR. N'DIAYE: From -. 15 just because there is only, like, three 15 MR. : -- he sent it to you. 16 paragraphs, four or five, four or five 16 I'm sorry. I read that incorrectly. So, 17 paragraphs. 17 looking at this, then, let's just review it and 18 MR. N'DIAYE: So, this looks to me like we 18 make each point, just make sure that it's what 19 send the information to the regional director - 19 you understand. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, 20 20 Epstein was found in a fetal position in cell, 21 MR. Mm-hmm. 21 breathing, but would not acknowledge staff 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and what he did was, 22 initially." 23 compile this information to send to DOJ. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 MR. : Okay. Oh, you're right. 24 MR. : "After removed, he 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 25 interacted with staff and speaking to staff. 23 24 1 Neck was red. Placed on suicide watch, and 1 2019. It starts with, "8:00 a.m., inmate 2 medical evaluation. Epstein receive daily 2 reg number 85993-054 departs for 3 psychological evaluations while on suicide 3 court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. is Epstein's 4 watch." Was that your recollection, too? 4 cellmate." 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. That is what is in 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 6 the report. But I want to -- 6 MR. : So, just starting with 7 MR. : Sure. 7 that, then, I do have, we're going to get into 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- clarify what we went -. 8 that later, but what does that tell you, if it 9 You know, when I, when you first read it to me 9 says inmate is departing for court, but 10 10 it also says WAB-USMS-SDNY? 11 MR. Mm-hmm. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that would mean With All 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I thought you meant the 12 Belongings. 13 day of. 13 MR. : So, that means he's not 14 MR. Yup, yup. 14 returning. Correct? 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 16 MR. Well, we have that, too. 16 MR. : All right. So, at 8:00 17 That's -- 17 a.m., is actually leaving, not 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 coming back to the MCC. 19 MR. : -- that one is here. And 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 this one is from you, and this is what I 20 MR. : All right. Great. And 21 thought it was starting with, as well. 21 then, it just goes on from there, what happens 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 22 throughout that day. And we're going to get 23 MR. : Because it said timeline 23 into these things more in detail, so I don't 24 on it. From you to Mr. . This initial 24 want to go through each thing, because we're 25 one actually talks about Friday, August 9th, 25 going to have to get into it later. But so, EFTA00064316 25 26 1 this information is stuff that you guys were 1 MR. N'DIAYE: This can't be -. This 2 ing, and you were providing to Mr. 2 doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it 3 4 ailMR. N'DIAYE: That would probably be 3 says, "PIO notified of incident by the warden." 4 I was off that day, on Friday. I wasn't at 5 information that we sent up to him. 5 work. 6 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 6 MR. : Yeah. So, that's why I 7 this is all the updates that occurred 7 think that they -. So, the next one I'm 8 afterwards. Let's see. Why is that 8 looking at shows that that point is now under 9 highlighted? So, here is something. Do you 9 Saturday, August 10th. 10 know why in this one, it would be updated? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I don't know why it 11 This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, 11 would be -- 12 "7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the 12 MR. So -- 13 warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- under Friday, because I 14 place or something, and it says, "Inmate IIIII 14 wasn't -- 15 released from court." 15 MR. -- yeah. Okay. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *00:16:27). 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I wasn't working. 17 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) 17 MR. So, you were actually off 18 just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 18 19 10th. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I was off -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible 20 MR. -- off on August 9th? 21 *00:16:34). 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- on Friday. Yes. 22 MR. Yeah. Okay. So, the 22 MR. All right. You and 23 next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It 23 everyone else. 24 just shows the next update, you have that under 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Huh? 25 August - or Saturday - August 10th. 25 MR. Everybody was off that 27 28 1 day. 1 MR. And yeah. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I didn't come back to 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- of whether it was 3 work until, when I got called, there was a 3 accurate, but typically, the last one that you 4 suicide aiiiiiiiiiiiscernible *00:17:28). 4 send usually, you know, if you have to make 5 MR. : Okay. So, all of this. 5 corrections, you make the corrections. And 6 So, if I can have that back, if you don't mind. 6 information if ou have to. 7 So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to 7 MR. : Sure. Okay. Great. 8 assume that, as this went on, and specifically, 8 When I show you things, it's not attesting to 9 the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 9 it, but -- 10 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 would be the most accurate timeline? 11 MR. : I'm going to ask you 12 MR. N'DIAYE: It should be, but I don't 12 just to initial and date, and that's just to 13 want to attest to it. I mean -- 13 say, specifically, that this is the document we 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 14 looked at, and when we spoke. It is absolutely 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. 15 not attesting to it. 16 MR. : I'm just saying, based - 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 is there any reason for you to believe that the 17 MR. It's not saying that this 18 timelines that were provided, or in any way, it 18 stuff is accurate. 19 was determined that, you know, we should add a 19 MR. N'DIAYE: And so, I write the date -- 20 point that actually didn't occur? Or is it 20 MR. If you could -- 21 safe to assume that, the last one that was sent 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and put reviewed on it, 22 would be the most accurate one? 22 or -? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: That's how it typically 23 MR. nope. lust your 24 works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't 24 initial and date. I'm just going to do this 25 attest to it -- 25 last one, just the top of it. I'm not going to EFTA00064317 29 30 1 have you do every single one. And I'm going to 1 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt 2 put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and 2 at suicide. 3 I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. 3 MR. : All right. So -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: What's the date? The 18th? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 5 MR. : 27th. 5 MR. : -- so, something happened 6 MR. N'DIAYE: 27th. 6 on the July 23rd -- 7 MR. 10/27/21. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Something happened -- 8 MR. : Thank you, sir, for 8 MR. : -- where Mr. -- 9 initialing and dating that. All right. I'm 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- in his cell. 10 going to just actually, because it's the 10 MR. : -- Epstein was found 11 timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me 11 with, like, a - was it a noose around his neck? 12 because we might have to reference it. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: It wasn't determined. It 13 MR. : I can tell -- 13 was, you know, that he was laying in his cell, 14 MR. : All right. 14 but I don't recall the specifics of the report. 15 MR. -- this is going to be a long- 15 But I know it went back and forth where there 16 ass interview. 16 was a suicide attempt, or an issue with inmate 17 MR. : It's going to be pretty 17 18 long. That's where I was trying to -- 18 MR. 19 MR. : Yeah. Just -. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- with - yeah - 20 MR. : -- you know? All right. 20 Yeah. 21 So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you 21 MR. : All right. So, these are 22 recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate 22 emails that we reviewed with regard -- 23 and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: I recall the investigation 24 MR. : -- to that incident. 25 that couldn't determine if they had an 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 31 32 1 MR. So, this one is 1 "From the memo attached, the information I 2 lacifically from, it says 2 received is not what I was told happened." 3 IIIII. Was that -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4 MR. : So, what I wanted to know 5 MR. : -- your AW? 5 is, and I guess, would you like me just to 6 MR. N'DIAYE: That is the AW. 6 refresh your memory, to really quickly read 7 MR. : Send it to you? 7 what she said happened, so we can figure out 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 what it is that didn't happen? 9 MR. And this is a memo from, 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. Yeah. 10 it says Mr. is the 10 MR. : All right. So, this is 11 operations lieutenant. 11 subject, "Possible suicide attempt." Again, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Lieutenant. She's a 12 July 23rd, 2019. It says, "On July -". Let me 13 female. 13 just sit back so you can just kind of read 14 MR. : Right. This is where I 14 along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to 15 wanted to ask you if you knew -- 15 you? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No problem. 17 MR. : -- about this. It 17 MR. : I'm vaccinated, just so 18 specifically says, so, it was original.. 18 you know. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, at 19 uess, sent from Captain to AW 19 approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance 20 20 on the Special Housing Unit was announced by 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 the control center. Upon my arrival, I was 22 MR. -- from to 22 informed that an inmate had attempted suicide 23 you. 23 and proceeded to cell ZOS-124LAD. I observed 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 24 inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, 25 MR. And her note to you says, 25 lying in the fetal position on the floor of his EFTA00064318 33 34 1 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. 1 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his 2 He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. 2 action or he would be placed in restraints for 3 I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him 3 his safety. 4 flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His 4 At that moment, he stated, 'Okay. I won't 5 neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no 5 do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because 6 further injuries to his person. An attempt was 6 of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was 7 made to get the inmate to stand on his own, 7 made to have the staff member observe inmate 8 with negative results. The inmate was placed 8 Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make 9 in hand restraints, and staff was directed to 9 staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke 10 retrieve the stretcher. 10 with Officer , who stated that Inmate 11 As inmate Epstein was being placed on the 11 Epstein was alert and had indicated that his 12 stretcher by responding staff, he would open 12 cellmate, , number 78514- 13 his eyes and observe staff. When staff made 13 054, had attempted to kill him, and had been 14 eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut 14 harassing him. 15 his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit." 15 He stated that the inmate had indicated 16 Was it that? The health care? 16 that he had informed his attorney of this 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Health. Health Services. 17 matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate 18 MR. : "Dressed in a suicide 18 , who stated that he was 19 smock, and placed on suicide watch. While 19 asleep with his headphones on when he felt 20 awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, 20 something hit his legs, and said, 'IIII. What 21 inmate Epstein sat on the IIII of the bed and 21 are you doing?' He didn't answer. So, he got 22 began moving forward, as if was attempting to 22 up, turned on the light," or - so, yeah - "He 23 fall over, head first. When I looked away, he 23 got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a 24 straightened up. As I turned to look at him 24 string around his neck. 25 again, he attempted the same act. I laid him 25 He stated that he then called the guards, 35 36 1 and the ran down. Upon further questioning, 1 Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit 2 inmate stated that he sleeps on the 2 motherfucker.' He then turned to a page in the 3 bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein 3 daily news that had his picture on it, and 4 because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on 4 stated that Epstein was worth 77 million 5 the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when 5 dollars. 6 he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or 6 Epstein then stated that he took his 7 stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that 7 picture, balled it up, and threw it in the 8 Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to 8 garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened 9 the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't 9 prior to staffs arrival. He stated that at 10 responding. 10 approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to 11 He stated that the last time he saw him, 11 get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 12 he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein 12 minutes. He remembered walking back to his 13 stated that he comes in from a legal visit at 13 bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his 14 approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a 14 cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen 15 copy of the daily news. was on the floor 15 staff, why didn't he respond when we were 16 reading the daily news. He stated that he had 16 calling out to him. 17 given it to him. He stated that 17 He stated that he only remembered hearing 18 mentioned that he had been in court all day, in 18 himself making a noise like snoring. When 19 Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was 19 asked about the allegations against his 20 carrying on. 20 cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt 21 At that point, inmate paused, 21 him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical doctor 22 as if he was making the stor u as he went 22 -" how do you pronounce that name? 23 along, and stated that stated, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: 24 'These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is 24 MR. . "Was 25 inhumane. I wish I could report it. 25 notified and briefed. It was determined that EFTA00064319 37 38 1 no further medical attention was needed. A 1 Epstein and having an issue in his 2 medical assessment was not conducted at the 2 cell. 3 time of this incident, due to the fact there 3 MR. And what, and my 4 was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. 4 understanding is that SIS came up with 5 Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate 5 inconclusive findings. 6 Epstein was examined and treated by M-L-P-Y." 6 MR. N'DIAYE: In the investigation. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: 7 MR. What is your belief that 8 MR. 8 happened? 9 "For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't speculate. 10 of his neck. One section on the front, with 10 MR. : You don't -. 11 marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his 11 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't want -. I mean, I 12 left knee." So, sorry that that was so 12 don't know, you know, with the injuries on the 13 lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, 13 neck, I don't know if it was a suicide, and I 14 is this, does anything in here strike you as 14 don't know, based on Epstein's statement, that 15 inaccurate? 15 was something done to him. So, couldn't prove 16 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 16 what it was. 17 MR. : So, when 17 MR. : Okay. And is it, is 18 says that in the attached memo, "The 18 there any reason for us to know or believe that 19 information I received is not what I was told 19 it was one or the other, though? I know you 20 happened." Do you know what she is referring 20 are trying not to speculate, but -. 21 to? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, I would, you know, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: I think she - if I recall - 22 you have there be the medical department, who 23 that she told, that said that it was an 23 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 24 attempted suicide, but then she got any 24 you could say you come to a conclusion from 25 additional information that it might have been 25 injuries, from physical injuries, but we 39 40 1 weren't even able to do that. 1 other -- 2 MR. : So, according to the 2 MR. Sure. 3 medical assessment, your understanding is that 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- conclusions could have 4 they weren't able to tell if someone -? 4 been drawn from it. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: That, from what I - if I can 5 MR. : And what happened with 6 - and I don't know - I read it - but I don't 6 inmate Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July 7 know -. I remember on the report, they were 7 23rd. 8 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 8 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't specifically 9 what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he 9 remember what happened. I know we separated 10 assaulted? 10 the both of them. He wasn't - and then, I know 11 MR. : And were you satisfied 11 he was on suicide watch. They placed him on a 12 with that response, or did you think that they 12 watch. And then had psychology talk to him. 13 missed something? 13 MR. : Okay. So, just so, that 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I think they looked into it. 14 is just so you know, if you don't mind just 15 And I think it was, you know, you couldn't look 15 initialing and dating that one, that we just 16 into it an further. I mean, either -- 16 read. Ok2y, So, this next one is from 17 MR. : Okay. 17 Charisma IIII to a 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it was a suicide, or it 18 (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:05). 19 was assault_i)slie separated them. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: She's a psychologist. 20 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. But there is -. 20 MR. : Okay. And then, with 21 So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or you 21 UCC. 22 weren't, you know -? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, they interviewed 23 MR. : It says, "SW, 24 them. They asked the questions. You had the 24 chronological log, re: Epstein." It says, 25 medical assessment. So, I don't know what 25 "C.O. was assigned to staff watch. EFTA00064320 41 42 1 However, the wrong book was used. I am 1 he would have been - his title is material 2 companion log, in lieu of staff suicide watch 2 handler. 3 log." 3 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 believe it was actually Michael Thomas? 5 MR. : Was that something 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I think it was the 6 normal? Was that an easy mistake? 6 officer. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: yeah, I could see it 7 MR. It was Mr. Michael 8 happening because we have a log that the 8 Thomas. Just from our records and from 9 inmate, you have an inmate companions that 9 speaking 10 watch inmates. So, they use the log. And 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 11 then, you have, if staff are going to sit on 11 MR. -- with Mr. Thomas. 12 someone, then they use a certain log. But the 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Can I see the log 13 fact that, you know, the documentation took 13 MR. Sure. 14 place, it was just, you know, it was just an 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- how he opened the log? 15 error. 15 MR. That is correct, right, 16 MR. : Okay. 16 17 MR. N'DIAYE: But they did document, so. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Where does it show that he 18 MR. : Now, C.O. . Is 18 started his shift? Because usually, when you 19 this Michael Thomas that you, are aware? 19 come on stifl,_ypy_write -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I had two . I don't 20 MR. IIIIIIIIII: This is what -- 21 know which one it was. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the name. 22 MR. : Okay. So, if I tell you 22 MR. : -- was attached to that 23 it was -- 23 email. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No, no, no. It had to be 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Typically, when you 25 Officer , because if it was C.O. 25 start your shift, your start off, you know, 43 44 1 you're putting your name, if you are relieved, 1 MR. N'DIAYE: They didn't fill it out 2 or you assume suicide watch. 2 correctly. 3 MR. : So, here is the next 3 MR. : And so, our investigation 4 email, so you might be able to show me an 4 shows that it was Michael Thomas -- 5 example of what you are referring to. It's 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 6 this email, is it the same thing you were CC'd, 6 MR. -- that was on him on the 7 and this is, like, maybe this is the real log 7 23rd. 8 that maybe he should have been using. But 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 here, it shows all the other logs. 9 MR. : And that wasn't an "I 10 MR. N'DIAYE: So, this is -. 10 gotcha," whatsoever. My question was actually, 11 MR. : Hmm. 11 Michael Thomas is the one that actually found 12 MR. N'DIAYE: See, this is what I mean by 12 him on August 10th. Correct? 13 when someone comes on duty, but this is what 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 14 they leave -- 14 MR. : And is that suspicious at 15 MR. : This is the -. 15 all to you, that he was the one that was 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they mix the book up. 16 watching him on suicide watch, and then that he 17 But they must have wrote it in the suicide log. 17 is the one that found him on the 10th? 18 But typically, when you come on, let's say the 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, typically, we 19 shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full 19 had so much overtime in the institution, that - 20 name, as assumin the duties. 20 and we go by when you sign up for it. So, 21 MR. : Okay. 21 there is a program that you sign up for, and I 22 MR. N'DIAYE: And you typically say who 22 don't know how the lieutenant did. They might 23 you relieved on there. 23 have called them, then he signed up for it. 24 MR. : All right. So, it looks 24 So, I don't know. I can't say if it was 25 like they maybe didn't fill it out correctly. 25 suspicious or not. EFTA00064321 45 46 1 MR. Sure. And then, all 1 is from MI to you. Also dated August 10th, 2 these documents that we're reviewing right 2 2019. It says, "Psych ops is discontinued on 3 here, on these two emails, what are they? 3 7/30/2018." I think she means 2019. Correct? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Which one? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Both of them. 5 MR. : At 8:15 a.m. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: The suicide watch log? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Yeah. So, is this 7 MR. : So, is this also part of 8 suicide watch log, as well as this? 8 the suicide watch log? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. The suicide 9 MR. N'DIAYE: That is a log you would also 10 observation log, and this is appears to be the 10 use. 11 cover of ::)gLoctc for suicide watch. 11 MR. : Okay. Great. And does 12 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Perfect. 12 it say in there, I guess right here, "8:15 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 13 a.m., psych observation is being 14 MR. : All right. Do you mind 14 discontinued."? 15 just initial and dating this? And again, these 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 16 aren't trick questions -- 16 MR. : Okay. Awesome. Dia 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 17 mind just initial and dating this? And 18 MR. : I just don't want to, 18 as I am giving these to you, can you try to 19 like, put answers in your -. If I think it is 19 keep these in order with regard to -- 20 something, but maybe it's not, you might be 20 MR. just been stacking them. 21 able to tell me what it actually is. 21 MR. : -- making a note. Don't 22 MR. N'DIAYE: This one, too? 22 stack them on tip, though, keep them, like, 23 MR. : Yes, please. Thank you, 23 bundled together, so we know this is psych. 24 sir. And this is, this says psych ops. So, 24 This is, like, the psych observation logbook. 25 this is another one of those emails. This one 25 MR. : Okay. 47 48 1 MR. So, if you can keep them, 1 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. It might be 2 and then write a note on them. 2 an entrance -- 3 MR. • Okay. 3 MR. : Or is it to the attorney 4 MR. So that when we are -. 4 visits or something? 5 After this thing is transcribed, we can keep 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it might be attorney 6 things in order. This one is regarding the 6 visits. Let me see. 7/30. G tall (Phonetic 7 first attem t and the one we read from 7 Sp. *00:36:57). Signature. Inmate name. 8 . And can you tell me, sir, what 8 Name. This might be an attorney log. Name. 9 this is? This is July 30th. So, it is that 9 Fall. Signature. Yeah. This might. This is 10 same date that he came off of -. What am I 10 probably an attorney -- 11 looking at here? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So, this is -. Date, name, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the log into the attorney 13 signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is 13 room. I think that's probably it. 14 -. Is this a entrance log to the Special 14 MR. : Here is Epstein again. 15 Housing Unit? 15 It shows 7/30, 7/30, 7/30. 16 MR. I'm not sure. That's 16 MR. N'DIAYE: The different attorneys. 17 what I'm saying. 17 He, you know, he could have had one attorney 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm just, I don't know. It 18 that comeiliiiiiiiii in the morning -- 19 might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : These are all dates, but 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and then, any time a new 21 at least up until 7/30, that he was in the 21 one comes in, they have to sign in, saying who 22 Special Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein. 22 you came to see. 23 So, I don't know if he would sign himself in. 23 MR. Okay. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No, no. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So, he had multiple -- 25 MR. So -. 25 MR. So, this is -- EFTA00064322 49 so 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- (Indiscernible 1 again, it says, "Inmate companion assumed 2 *00:37:46)________ 2 duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 3 MR. IIIIIIIIII: -- an attorney log. 3 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred 4 MR. N'DIAYE: This is an attorney log. He 4 to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. 5 usually had multi le attorneys. 5 until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion 6 MR. : So, it wasn't Epstein 6 was utilized." 7 signing his name. They are -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No, no. 8 MR. : So, this one says July 9 MR. : -- saying they were 9 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch 10 visiting this person. 10 chronological log. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever comes and visits has 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 12 to put who -- 12 MR. : Inmate companion logs. 13 MR. Okay. 13 Does this tell you anything more about Michael 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they are visiting. 14 Thomas, or anything different? What is this? 15 MR. So, the visitor logs were 15 This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? 16 for attorneys. 16 That's just he's on it? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Attorneys. Yeah. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. It just says, you 18 MR. : All right. Yousilqjust 18 know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. 19 initial and dating that? And again, IIIIII, if 19 You got category. I don't know what the MDS 20 you want to write on here, just -- 20 is, but typically, it's an assignment. Like, I 21 MR. Okay. 21 could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he 22 MR. : -- attorney logbook 22 was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, 23 visit. So, again, so that we can keep track of 23 this must be a medical term. Concerning his 24 what it is these things are. Now, is this the 24 medical status. 25 same thing we just looked at? This looks like, 25 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 51 52 1 this is the first page, it looks like, of the 1 right there. 2 logbook. Does this tell you -- 2 MR. Okay. Great. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Assumed responsibility for 4 MR. : -- anything different 4 inmate Epstein on -. 5 than what we looked at before, or is this the 5 MR. : Perfect. 6 same thing? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that's why I was telling 7 MR. N'DIAYE: It's the same. It's an 7 you, the staff one should read just like that, 8 inmate suicide watch -- 8 too. 9 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : All right. So, this one 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- log. 10 is 7/23 is the actual inmate that was -- 11 MR. : So, it doesn't say 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 12 Michael Thomas on it, it just -- 12 MR. : Epstein's companion on 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No. It says inmate 13 7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and 14 companion was watching him. 14 dating that? 15 MR. : Okay. You said inmate -. 15 MR. : And this is right after the 16 Oh, so, this is an inmate companion instead of 16 incident. The first incident, right? 17 17 MR. : This is - so, July 23rd 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, yeah. 18 or the 24th - yes, this is when he was on 19 MR. : -- the actual. Okay. 19 suicide watch, not on observation. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: You have -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : I got you. So, whatever, 21 MR. : And this is that, it 22 does it tell us which, who the inmate was, that 22 looks like this one is, again, it's from you to 23 was his companion? 23 Mr. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Inmate companion 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:51), and it has his number 25 MR. It says psych ops/suicide EFTA00064323 53 54 1 watch. And it looks like it's the difference 1 MR. -- same procedures? 2 between the two. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 MR. : Okay. The one thing that 4 MR. : In laymen's terms, what 4 I've learned more recently is, though, during 5 is the difference between suicide watch and 5 psychological observation, or I guess I should 6 psychological observation at the MCC, during 6 ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as 7 this time period when Epstein was on it? 7 psychological observation, is the inmate 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So, suicide watch is when we 8 allowed to have attorney visits? 9 have determined, or there is a possibility, 9 MR. N'DIAYE: If they are on that watch, 10 through what an individual is saying, that they 10 no. 11 might cause self-harm to themselves. Psych ops 11 MR. : What about during 12 is, that person might not admit it, and we 12 psychological observation? 13 might not have anything to say to put them on 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I think it would be the same 14 suicide watch, so we just put them on what we 14 thing, that they are not allowed to have. And 15 call psyciiiiiiiiilobservation. 15 I'm not sure. Don't quote me to it. Because 16 MR. : And now, it was my 16 typically, when they are on that, we don't have 17 understanding -- 17 it. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *00:41:11). 18 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if 19 MR. : -- it's basically the 19 either yourself or anyone at the institution 20 same thing, aside from what the inmate is 20 was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or 21 allowed to have, such as clothes. 21 Epstein's attorneys, asking that he be removed 22 MR. N'DIAYE: That, too. 22 from either psychological observation or 23 MR. : Okay. So, is it same 23 suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? 24 unit, same room, same -- 24 MR. N'DIAYE: They will always call. I 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Same. 25 mean, they would. There was always a number 55 56 1 subject, whether it was to place him in general 1 on either suicide watch or psychological 2 populatioL__aLIdon't, you know, recall -. 2 observations? 3 MR. 1111111111: Do you remember ever 3 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't recall that. 4 being called by a judge? 4 MR. : You don't recall. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I don't. I don't 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 6 recall. 6 MR. : Sure. That's fine. 7 MR. Okay. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Speaking with a judge. 8 MR. : Do you know - I know you 9 MR. All right. Because that 9 said that, and you didn't think that inmates 10 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 10 typically could - but do you know if Mr. 11 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 11 Epstein visited with his attorneys during that 12 from one or the other. 12 time, between the 23rd and the 30th of -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Judges wouldn't 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know -- 14 typically call for that. 14 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 15 MR. : But the attorneys 15 *00:43:28)? 16 frequently would? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- if he was on that status, 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, frequently, they 17 then he would not have been -- 18 would, you know, call our legal department, 18 MR. : You don't believe so? 19 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I don't believe so. 20 population. Why is he, you know, being housed 20 MR. : Okay. 21 here? And just not him, if there was any type 21 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I don't believe so. 22 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 22 MR. : No problem. All right. 23 type of re uests ou get from the attorney. 23 So, this, this one again. Oh, do you mind 24 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 24 initial and dating that? 25 those attorneys were made, though, when he was 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. EFTA00064324 57 58 1 MR. : Okay, , you can 1 seeing an attorney. He didn't go until after 2 file that accordingly. This one just goes back 2 he got off. 3 to that first initial timeline, that looked 3 MR. : Well, it says that he had 4 like it may have been a little messed up. The 4 an attorney visit -- 5 initial email from you, it looks like it's a 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 6 psych ops. "The logbook shows he was released 6 MR. : -- starting at 8:20 a.m., 7 on July 30th. He had an attorney visit, 7 but it doesn't say if he had any prior to that 8 starting at 8:20 a.m. 8 time. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Oh, because he was 10 MR. : He was there all day. I 10 released on Jul 30th. 11 will send the attorney log next." And then, 11 MR. : Right. 12 Mr. response was, "The timeline we 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 13 sent DO] says 7/29. Where did we get that 13 MR. : So, just saying, like, 14 date?" So, are we confident that he stayed 14 yeah, he was released and -- 15 until the 30th? 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: He stayed until the 30th. 16 MR. : -- he was visiting with 17 MR. : Okay. So, was this just 17 his attorneys. 18 an incorrect -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I think that was a typo. 19 MR. : And that's something 20 MR. : -- okay. Oh, sorry. Do 20 we've had a little bit of a conflicting 21 you mind initial and dating? 21 information. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, this answers your 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 23 previous gLiesvni. 23 MR. : We've heard that he 24 MR. IIIIIIIIII: What's that? 24 actually did have attorney visits during that 25 MR. N'DIAYE: About being on psych ops and 25 time. And we've heard that he didn't. So, 59 60 1 that's why I was wondering if you would be able 1 How do you think it's -? 2 to clear that up at all, but you're not -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. is Okay. 4 MR. -- to your recollection - 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 5 5 MR. Okay. So, did ou have 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 6 any involvement with selecting as 7 MR. -- he wouldn't have? 7 Epstein's cellmate? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Typically, if you are 8 MR. N'DIAYE: We did. 9 on that, you're not going to have an attorney 9 MR. : Okay. And how was that 10 visit. 10 selection made? 11 MR. And just talking to 11 MR. N'DIAYE: So, we weren't able to get a 12 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 12 whole lot of people, you know, think that how 13 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 13 we could house him to be safe. was 14 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 14 a white male. Another high-profile case. So, 15 that right. But do you think that maybe they 15 and he is not, you know, there is this 16 were mistaken? 16 misconception that he was a big hulking 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm just going from my 17 bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something 18 experience, like any other of the inmates that 18 pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and 19 we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an 19 frame. So, we said that would have been an 20 attorney visit. 20 appropriate cellmate for him. 21 MR. : Okay. Now, this, 21 MR. And who made the 22 speaking of psychology, that's the next point. 22 decision? 23 Let me just make sure that all the information 23 MR. N'DIAYE: To put them together? 24 is on that incident. So, as far as 24 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 , or , however it is -. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I did. EFTA00064325 61 62 1 MR. : Okay. Was it in 1 to see the names. So, I don't know who they 2 coordination with both the captain, as well as 2 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 3 Mr. ? 3 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Everyone - yeah - would 4 the two inmates to the director's office. 5 discuss it, like, you know, I, obviously, I 5 (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And 6 sent it up the chain, to say, look who we're 6 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 7 going to make him his cellmate, and what was 7 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 8 the reasciiiiiiiiii 8 about as far as if we had to choose between who 9 MR. : So -- 9 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 11 MR. : -- in talking with the 11 12 captain, his recollection was that he brought 12 MR. • 13 the three names, you discussed it with Mr. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: M I , that would 14 he was present for that discussion, and 14 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 15 Mr. is the only one who said, I want 15 find anybod . 16 , put him with . Do you 16 MR. : Okay. So -- 17 recall it to be that way, or do you recall it 17 MR. N'DIAYE: And then, they went ge_i_,Ind 18 to be -? 18 then, I got word back that, to go with IIIII 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Which -? Well, are we 19 MR. : Okay. So, was when 20 talking about 20 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 21 MR. : Oh, did that happen with 21 selection, but for -- 22 22 MR. N'DIAYE: 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, and - what do 23 MR. , that was 24 you call it? - and, there were two names. 24 you? 25 So, I talked to my boss about it. They wanted 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it was in 63 64 1 conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, 1 into the cell upon them. So, was, 2 the powers that be that this is who we're going 2 you know, the best -- 3 to be, and it came back and said, you know, 3 MR. : The other inmates -- 4 we're good for that. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- inmates -. 5 MR. : Okay. Do you know what 5 MR. : -- would not accept Epstein, 6 was in for? 6 nor would not accept a pedophile. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: He had - I know it was a big 7 MR. N'DIAYE: They weren't going to -. 8 drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff 8 They just weren't going to stab Epstein 9 like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible 9 *00:49:29). I don't know the reasons. But I 10 *00:48:452_::_ 10 mean, I can't make the decisions and say, all 11 MR. IIIII: Some kind of narcotics. 11 right, I'm going to force you to take this, and 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- huh? 12 then somethin ha ens to him, and then -. 13 MR. : Some kind of narcotics. 13 MR. So, someone actually 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Some kind of narcotics. So, 14 spoke with and he said he was 15 he - and then, I don't - and I recall there was 15 willing to do it? 16 murder involved, too. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: And I'm not sure on there - 17 MR. : Yeah. 17 who spoke to him, but I don't know. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: But he was a high-profile 18 MR. : Okay. 19 case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there 19 MR. N'DIAYE: It might have been. But I 20 that were trying to get in there, but you know, 20 know we said we were going to put him in, and 21 they would have probably harmed him. I had 21 this is, this is what -. And he didn't have 22 another pedophile in there, and everybody in 22 any issues. 23 the unit, they know who's in the unit, I'm not 23 MR. : Okay. And if someone did 24 taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we 24 speak with him, who would that have been? 25 can't just arbitrarily force another inmate 25 Would that have been captain? EFTA00064326 65 66 1 MR. N'DIAYE: It might have been the 1 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean -. 2 captain. Shoot, (Indiscernible *00:50:02). 2 MR. : -- it would be pure 3 But it probably would have been the captain, 3 speculation, if you did? 4 but - 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. It would be. I would 5 MR. : Okay. S be speculiiiiiiiiiihat. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, typically, you 6 MR. : Okay. 7 know, we're going to make a move, and we're 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't -. 8 putting somebody in there, we're not going to, 8 MR. : Okay. 9 you know, sit down and consult with an inmate, 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 if that's oka , with you. I mean -- 10 MR. And you just prefer not 11 MR. : Sure. 11 to do that? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- we just have a feel of 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I don't want to 13 the unit -- 13 speculate. 14 MR. No. 14 MR. Okay. Now, so, our 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that, who is appropriate 15 assessment from other people has been that 16 to go in there, okay, I'm not going to put a 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 drug dealer in there with him. So, you know, 17 MR. was trying 18 typically, another high-profile inmate would be 18 to beat his case -- 19 appropriate. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Okay. Now do ou have 20 MR. : -- and that he had every 21 any reason to believe that did, in 21 reason in the world not to harm Epstein. And 22 fact, try to harm Epstein on July 23rd? 22 that was actually the person who 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Again=, I can't speculate on 23 notified the guards that Epstein was in need of 24 that. 24 help. Is that what you -? Is that a correct 25 MR. Sure. lust because - 25 assessment? 67 68 1 MR. wasn't in the cell 1 psychological observation, was he placed back 2 at the time. 2 in the SHU? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 4 MR. On July 23rd, he was. 4 MR. : Okay. So, and I 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he was. So, he -- 5 apologize to read all these, but this is just - 6 MR. : He was. Oh, I -- 6 again - we're not going to through them one by 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. 7 one, but just to show what it is that we have 8 MR. : -- yeah, right. 8 here. So, this one says it's from an 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. So, here's how I'm 9 to Did I get this from you? 10 going to put this. As far as , we 10 I think this is something that forwarded on. 11 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn't 11 MR. : She say even gave your own 12 a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you 12 drinking -- 13 know, with a cellphone. You know, making 13 MR. This one says, "Can you 14 calls, you know, and circumventing his case, 14 send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide 15 and whatever. But so, I don't, I can't 15 attem t. Thanks." That was from 16 speculate on, you know, whether he would do 16 , it looks like, sent it up. So, 17 something, or he wouldn't do something. So, 17 said, "I need this ASAP." And it 18 that was ou know, my dealings with 18 says, "Here are his notes." 19 , when I was aware of him. Plus, 19 MR. N'DIAYE: So, he said (Phonetic 20 you know, his case. 20 Sp. *00:52:59). I guess the regional is 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 requesting_ii_____ 22 MR. N'DIAYE: And the request from his 22 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. So, the region 23 attorneys. 23 wanted this? 24 MR. : Okay. So, following 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 25 Epstein's time on suicide watch and 25 MR. So, this, is this what EFTA00064327 69 70 1 this is? Is this the psychology file of 1 8th, 2019. 2 Epstein? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Those are clinical notes. 3 MR. : To July 31st, 2019. 4 MR. So, these are all 4 MR. N'DIAYE: It's any encounter you have 5 clinical notes -- 5 with him.__ALlyintgical -- 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 6 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, did they not -- 7 MR. -- here? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- (Indiscernible 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 *00:53:53). 9 MR. Would this have been, 9 MR. : -- have any encounters 10 like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July 10 after Jul 31st, 2019? 11 31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it 11 MR. IIIII: Do you know? 12 looks like these are clinical notes from the 12 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I am not aware of that 13 day he got there -- 13 because it would only - they would only 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 annotate if the encounters with him. 15 MR. : -- up until July 31st. 15 MR. : Okay. So, you are 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 unaware of, after July 31st, if anyone had any 17 MR. : I wonder why. Why would 17 kind of, any psychology had any interactions 18 they only send until July 31st? Do you know? 18 with him? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: You said -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. If it's not in the BEMR 20 MR. : Not August. 20 notes, and that I guess they didn't have any. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they sent from where? 21 MR. So, you would assume that 22 MR. : Well, it -- 22 23 MR. N'DIAYE: From -? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 24 MR. : -- started from the day 24 MR. : -- there wouldn't be? 25 that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July 25 Okay. Do you mind initialing? And do you know 71 72 1 why that would be? 1 been writing clinical notes? Or do you -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Hold on. If an inmate is 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I think they -- 3 cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them 3 MR. : -- or -? 4 about it - but most inmates didn't, once you 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- did everything. Because 5 are cleared off of suicide watch, they have 5 they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on 6 other things that they do. You can come down 6 the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive 7 and they give you some (Indiscernible 7 whether he committed, you know, tried to -- 8 *00:54:42) courses to take. So, they have 8 MR. : Sure. 9 other types of therapy, but it doesn't 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- attempted to commit 10 necessarily have to be entered in as a medical 10 suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but 11 encounter. 11 if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I 12 MR. : Okay. So, this is, so, 12 wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do 13 psychology could have been still meeting with 13 it, that's their assessment of it. 14 them, just not noted as a medical encounter? 14 MR. : Right. No. I guess what 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You - I mean - you 15 I'm saying is that, I know you're not a 16 see them, and you can just, like, if you have 16 psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that 17 patients, you will go, how is everything going? 17 they cleared him to go back to the SHU -- 18 You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a 19 MR. : -- do you think that they 20 medical encounter. 20 should have continued at least checking with 21 MR. : Okay. So, your 21 him, or no? 22 involvement with this, being that he came off 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, they probably did. I 23 of psychological observation on July 30th, 23 mean, when -- 24 should psychology had interacted with him more 24 MR. Okay. 25 in that type of setting, where they would have 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you make your SHU rounds. EFTA00064328 73 74 1 You know, seeing him in other parts of the 1 the Northeast Region. So, do you know if that 2 institution. So, and you would have to ask 2 was ever completed? The actual suicide 3 them. But there were probably encounters with 3 reconstruction. 4 him. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: They might have, but nobody 5 MR. : Okay. 5 talked to me. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: But that didn't require -- 6 MR. Okay. They didn't talk 7 MR. : A report. 7 to you? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- a report, and a medical 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Nah. 9 annotation in there. 9 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. And 10 MR. : Okay. So, this next 10 then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks 11 email, it talks about, it siiiiiiWarden 11 like a template is attached here. 12 N'Diaye," and this is from , and 12 "(Indiscernible *00:57:00 national suicide 13 again -- 13 prevention program, suicide reconstruction 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 materials." 15 MR. -- is he the coordinator? 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 Or, who is he? 16 MR. : Would have you been the 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 17 one that would have gathered these things for 18 MR. : Oh, here it is. National 18 him? 19 suicide prevention coordinator for the BOP. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. You probably -. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 Typically, when this happens, this comes from, 21 MR. : It says, "Thank you for 21 when I used to do them, I would make contact 22 supporting our scheduling of the psychological 22 with someone in the institution, to get it. 23 reconstructive for inmate E stein. I will be 23 So, you -- 24 joined by , (Phonetic Sp. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 *00:56:44) Correction Service Administration of 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- have the executive 75 76 1 assistant -- 1 MR. . So, you -- 2 MR. Yeah. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I was removed from the 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- get the information. 3 institution. 4 MR. : So, it says, "I am 4 MR. : -- when were you removed 5 attaching a list of materials we use to 5 from the institution? 6 complete the reconstruction. We routinely take 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Monday. 7 these documents with us, so please ensure that 7 MR. : Monday, August 12th? 8 a copy of any documents you also need." 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 MR. : Okay. That's what I was 10 MR. : It says, "Your assistance 10 kind of asking you before. Maybe I wasn't 11 in gathering these documents, appreciate it, 11 clear with my question. I was wondering if 12 will be helpful." So, you would ist you 12 something happened to you after this, that you 13 would provide that to, like, or 13 were removed and no longer -- 14 someone? 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No. They just told me, go 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. We tell the exec, 15 report to the 16 hey, I need you iiat, this information, and 16 MR. : -- all right. So, as of 17 it might not be . It could be the 17 Monday, August 12th, 2019, you were no longer 18 chief psychologist. Whoever is assigned to do 18 at the MCC? 19 it. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I was no longer at the MCC. 20 MR. : Okay. But as far as you 20 MR. And did you ever go back 21 know, was that completed? Did he show up and 21 afte that? 22 do that? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I didn't. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I wasn't at the institution. 23 MR. : Okay. So, that was -. 24 MR. : Oh, okay. 24 Okay. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I did today, to go EFTA00064329 77 78 1 park. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. DRD (Phonetic Sp. 2 MR. Okay. But after this 2 *00:59:14) came. I did my - when was it? - I 3 instance, and you were not really involved 3 had an interview at the U.S. Attorney's Office. 4 after that, then? 4 And then, my boss came and said, hey, I'm, you 5 MR. N'DIAYE: That was it. I didn't have 5 know, we're signing you up to the regional 6 any -. 6 office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why 7 MR. : Yeah. You check in today. 7 I was being removed. And I was just told to go 8 Did you just say? 8 up there.__2s_that's what transpired. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I had to park a vehicle, 9 MR. Was there another warden in 10 because I had to -. I had the government 10 place? 11 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so I 11 MR. N'DIAYE: They brought another one in. 12 parked there, and took the train out, 12 MR. : So, there was two people with 13 (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 13 the title of warden, at that point? 14 MR. : I think when we started, and 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, they had Mr. Partruchi 15 Dennis asked when you started at the regional 15 (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:52), and Lacome Vitale 16 office, I think you mentioned 2020. 16 (Phonetic S . *01:00:01). She is. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So, the problem is, and he 17 MR. : Okay. 18 was talking about job title. My job title 18 MR. : All right. So, if you 19 still remained the same. 19 don't mind, just initialing and dating that. 20 MR. : As warden? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: As the warden in New York, 21 MR. : We'll get that out of 22 and it wasn't removed until 2020. 22 your way. So, this looks like this answers our 23 MR. : Okay. Well, now, but as of 23 question. 24 August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 region? 25 MR. So, this is an email from 79 80 1 AW MI to yourself. 1 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 thoughts or intention. He was asking the 3 MR. : And it just says, "FYI, 3 writer to go to general population and was 4 from Dr. , regarding her last interaction 4 making requests for various leads he had at the 5 with Epstein, prior to her departure on 5 time. He wanted social calls without them 6 Thursday." 6 being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 had left in the suicide watch area. 8 MR. : Dr. was the 8 His mood was not depressed or anxious. 9 psychologist at MCC? 9 There were no signs of stress. He had planned 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 10 on meeting with his attorneys to work on his 11 MR. : Correct? 11 legal situation." So, there is that. And 12 MR. N'DIAYE: She was the chief 12 then, there is also, I don't know if this was 13 psychologist. 13 attached. , I don't know how this was 14 MR. : Okay. Great. And it 14 printed, but it also looks like all the 15 says that, "I visited inmate Epstein in SHU on 15 contacts. It says, "15 contacts in one month. 16 Thursday." Thursday, meaning August 8th -- 16 Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 And after the -". It does say that there was a 18 MR. : 2019. "He was getting 18 contact that looks like, on the 31st. 19 ready to meet with his attorneys for the day, 19 MR. : What does he mean by 20 so I had gone to visit him, right after the SHU 20 "contact"? 21 meeting. 21 MR. A psychology contact. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. Okay. 23 MR. : He had a cellmate at the 23 MR. And then, here's one, 24 time, with whom I saw him interact with. He 24 8/1/2019, Dr. , SRA, was -- 25 did not report any medical, or any mental 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. EFTA00064330 81 82 1 MR. : -- being conducted. What 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 is SRA? Do you know? 2 MR. : -- read. And on 3 MR. N'DIAYE: It's a seg group. 3 8/10/2019. So, I guess they did (Indiscernible 4 Segregation review. 4 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible 5 MR. Oh. 5 *01:02:40). 6 MR. So, it says 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You don't have to 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 7 always. 8 MR. : -- it says, "Court sent a 8 MR. : So, yeah, then maybe 9 form. Suicidal tendencies." 9 those weren't required. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: No. That must be a 10 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 11 psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. 11 MR. : Yeah, do you mind, maybe 12 If it SRA must be for SHU. 12 the bottom on this one? 13 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. And it says, "On 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 August 1st, 2019, he denied any suicide ally, 14 MR. : That wasn't attached to the 15 friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive 15 email. Tiiiiiiiiiist a separate document. 16 Jewish against his religion, still denied 16 MR. : Oh, that's a separate 17 knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when 17 document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to 18 he was discovered with a string loosely tied 18 psychology? All right. And this is the last 19 around his neck. Said his incident report for 19 one to cover what psychology. This was an 20 self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is 20 email that was sent out by a 21 talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in 21 To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation 22 SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going 22 update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it 23 back to his normal life." iiiiiiain, it say 23 says, "Inmate Epstein is being taken off of 24 that the 2019 was with Dr. , what I just 24 psych observation and needs to housed with an 25 25 appropriate cellmate." 83 84 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 it's just - if there's nothing in policy that 2 MR. , and it just 2 sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional 3 says everyone who is attached to this sent, 3 setting, if somebody has been on, you know, 4 this was sent to. 4 attempted suicide, or attempted to self- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 mutilation, you usually put them in with 6 MR. : Is this something that 6 someone. 7 they normally do, after someone comes off of 7 MR. : Okay. So, were you or 8 psych observation or suicide watch? Do they 8 your staff involved with the decision to have 9 send this out to everyone? Or was it a special 9 Epstein removed from suicide watch or 10 case for this? 10 psychological observation? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: No. It's typical. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Psychology makes the 12 MR. : That's typical? 12 determination that the individual is, you know, 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Typical. Because you have 13 no longer suicide. This is for any inmate. 14 to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, 14 MR. : Sure. 15 everyone know, you know, the person is coming 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Is no longer suicidal. And 16 off. And where to house them. Some go back to 16 there is no reason for him to be on suicide 17 their units. In his case, he was going back to 17 watch. So, they either get released wherever 18 the Special Housin Unit. 18 they came from, whether it was the general 19 MR. : Okay. Great. Do you 19 populationaitaa the Special Housing Unit. 20 mind just initial and dating that? And that 20 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, on background on 21 was - is it their job to determine if a 21 that. So, one of the individuals in psychology 22 cellmate has to be housed with another 22 department -- 23 cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 24 with another inmate. 24 MR. : -- who would meet with 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, typically, I mean, 25 Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, EFTA00064331 85 86 1 one of the ste s down with Dr. , as well 1 matter experts. They are the doctors. They 2 as AW 2 release someone off of suicide watch. I can't 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Am-hmm. 3 - if an individual is on suicide watch - I 4 MR. : And I was informed that 4 can't turn around and come in there, and say, 5 that is kind of pretty routine, that that is 5 take him off. 6 conducted in coordination with executive staff 6 MR. : Sure. 7 members. Is that -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm not a trained 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That is. 8 psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on 9 MR. : -- so, that's where I 9 there. But then, you know, after hours, or if 10 want to make sure that I'm understanding -- 10 it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, 11 MR. N'DIAYE: We do. 11 any staff member could put him on there. 12 MR. : -- what you are saying. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: But we also do, we have what 13 MR. N'DIAYE: But as far as taking him 14 we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in 14 off, you have to have a medical reason, as far 15 our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly 15 as them cicmiiiiiiii 16 meeting, and if there are any issues, that's 16 MR. : So, in that interview 17 brought uiliiiiiiiieeting. 17 with that individual, the said the decision 18 MR. : Okay. So, is it solely, 18 was discussed with AW and that 19 though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes 19 individual concurred with that decision. If 20 from, say, suicide watch to psych observation, 20 they didn't concur, though, would that matter 21 and again, psych observation back to a housing 21 to them? 22 unit? Is that their call, or does the 22 MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean, if the AW 23 executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside 23 didn't concur with it? 24 of psychology, have an influence on that? 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Psychology are the subject 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, I don't want to use 87 88 1 the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're 1 if we hadaltions. 2 keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to 2 MR. IIIII: Guys, I want to go for a 3 take him off of suicide watch. Now, let's say 3 second. All right? 4 I come in and interject and say, no, I want him 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 5 on there. What is my reasoning for putting him 5 MR...got to go pee. 6 on there? 6 MR. : Do you want us to 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 continue or wait? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: What medical degree do I 8 MR. : No, just stay by me. Oh, 9 have to justify keeping an individual on 9 don't continue. I'll be right back. 10 suicide watch? Because now, it could go the 10 MR. : Absolutely. I'm going to 11 other way. I decide to turn around and do 11 pause this recording then. It is currently 12 something like that, I would be having a 12 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday October 27th 2021. 13 conversation with about something else. 13 This is Special Agent , and I 14 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Sure. 14 am pausing the recording. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 16 MR. : Okay. 16 off the record and back on the record). 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. The recorder 18 MR. : So, is it more to keep 18 is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, 19 you apprise -- 19 short break. Mr. N'Diaye, just reminding you 20 MR. N'DIAYE: To keep us apprised -- 20 that you are under oath. 21 MR. : -- if anything else? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, and saying, 22 MR. All right. Sorry. 23 hey, this is the way we're removing an 23 Address these. 24 individual, and we move forward. I mean, 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 25 obviously, we will have questions. You know, 25 MR. All right. So, the last EFTA00064332 89 90 1 that we discussed was that psychology said that 1 again? 2 Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 3 is where we talked a little bit about it. It 3 MR. : Okay. Great. But it was 4 sounded like the decision to have 4 based upon a list that you provided? 5 placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. There were some 6 at a higher level than yourself? 6 names. Because I - fast forward - I got a 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 7 call, and we were gearing towards getting him 8 MR. : Okay. And who made that 8 out to 9 decision? 9 MR. : Oh, so, you wanted 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Listen. I 10 Epstein to actually be in general pop? 11 know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually, 11 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't want -. That's 12 the two inmates that would kind of figured out 12 what typiiiiiiiiiiiens. You know -- 13 there might be a cellmate, we sent those names 13 MR. : Sure. 14 to the director's office. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you don't want an inmate 15 MR. : Okay. 15 in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot 16 MR. N'DIAYE: And it was was 16 of high-profile individuals that come in the 17 the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss 17 institution. You know, we do our intelligence 18 told me that they had to run it up to the 18 gathering, to see, okay, what would be an 19 department. So, I don't know who was spoken to 19 appropriate unit for them to be in? And we 20 in the department. And it got back, and my 20 place them. And then, we monitor them. If, 21 boss said that, too, you know, that's a good 21 you know, and that is how we move them into 22 choice. 22 general population. I get a call saying, hold 23 MR. Okay. 23 up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 24 MR. And who called you? 25 MR. And that's Mr. 25 MR. : Did he qualify as a pedophile? 91 92 1 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't -. I didn't -. 1 MR. Oh, I see. 2 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- to get him out to general 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Read. But that's -. We 3 population. 4 didn't -- 4 MR. : I gotcha. So, back, you 5 MR. : Yeah. 5 are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, so that's not 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, we're talking about -- 7 feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So, 7 MR. : -- that timeframe. 8 get a call, and they said hold up on that. He 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the whole thing, and 9 needs to', ere he's at. 9 then, even, you know, coming out of psych 10 MR. : Okay. 10 observations when he got in, the plan was still 11 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 11 to get hiiiiiiiiiiieral population. 12 MR. : And I'm sorry. Who was 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 it that called you to siiiiiiy? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, we had the attorneys 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mr. . And then, 14 contacting our legal, why can't he be in 15 that's when I had to send up the names. I 15 general 16 guess he had gotten some from the department. 16 MR. : Sure. 17 I don't know who he talked to in the 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So, and then, that is when I 18 department. 18 got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't 19 MR. : Oh, so, coming out of 19 know who he talked to in the department - but 20 psych observation, you were looking to send him 20 it was, like, hold on. 21 back to general pop. 21 MR. : And on that note, I guess 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 22 this would be a good time to talk about this. 23 MR. : Or not back to. Into. 23 Being that it was ultimately decided that he go 24 MR. N'DIAYE: When he first came in, the 24 into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit, 25 whole process was -- 25 was it discussed at all that he be placed on EFTA00064333 93 94 1 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs 1 or no? 2 inmates? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: They did, but it wasn't to 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So, here's the problems with 3 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 4 Ten South. It's the terrorist unit, and 4 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 5 there's SAMS things in there. The amount of 5 couple hours, they left. As it got close to 6 attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn't 6 trial, then they would - you would see them 7 have those attorneys coming up to that unit 7 more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one at 8 every day, and, you know, breaching the 8 attorneys, they were in there from the 9 security of it, and then, tying up the movement 9 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 10 in there, because when an attorney comes in 10 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 11 there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it's 11 the rooms. 12 planned, and they are in there. Epstein's 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. So -- 13 attorneys were coming in early in the morning, 13 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 14 and weren't leaving until late at night. And 14 MR. : -- the primary reason why 15 it was about four or five of them. So -- 15 he was placed in Nine South was because of the 16 MR. : And guess who's paying his 16 attorney visits? 17 bill? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, not the attorney 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. That's not an 18 visits, but that is the SAMS unit. 19 appropriate unit, and that's not what that unit 19 MR. : Okay. 20 is for. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: And he's not a SAMs inmate. 21 MR. : Now, what about, like, 21 And then -. 22 if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. 22 MR. : What's a SAMs unit? 23 *01:11:SS), or some of the other high levels 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Special Administrative 24 that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with 24 Measures. That means, you know, strict 25 that, or did they have attorneys visiting them 25 communication. And there's a lot that goes on 95 96 1 with that unit. So, he wasn't appropriate to 1 MR. I see. 2 be up there. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: was in general 3 MR. : Now, were some of those 3 population, and a SAMs was placed on him by his 4 other high-profile inmates, though, such as El 4 attorney -- 5 Chapo, and who were some of the people that 5 MR. : What was the other name again? 6 were in there? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: . And he was 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. The terrorists up 7 placed up there. 8 there. 8 MR. : Can I ask you -- 9 MR. : But the non-terrorists. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 Meaning, the people that -. There was a few -- 10 MR. : -- a totally irrelevant 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, you had 11 question? 12 (Phonetic Sp. *01:13:05), but he was in for 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 espionage, and had a SAMs on him. So, he -- 13 MR. : What was El Chapo like? 14 MR. : Now, did El Chapo have a 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Just like any other inmate. 15 SAMs on him? 15 MR. : Is that right? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he had -. No. His 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Just like any other 17 status was based on, and I know there was 17 inmate. 18 (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status -- 18 MR. : Polite? 19 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Polite. You know, no 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and stuff. So, he was a 20 problems. But that wasn't the appropriate unit 21 high profile person that had escaped from 21 to be houiiiiiiiiiie Epstein. 22 another prison before -- 22 MR. : Now, did you even have 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 the authority to place him in Ten South, if you 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- so, that was an 24 wanted to? 25 appropriate place to place him. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, I could have, but I EFTA00064334 97 98 1 would have had to have, you know, some 1 MR. -- do you stand by the 2 justification as to why I'm putting him up 2 decision that he would be in Nine South, or do 3 there. And there would have been push back 3 you think he should have been in Ten South, or 4 from his attor es. 4 what are your thoughts on that? 5 MR. : Okay. Because some 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I think he was appropriately 6 people had mentioned that, saying the warden 6 placed. 7 doesn't even have the ability to do that. That 7 MR. Okay. So, Nine South -- 8 comes from a higher level. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean -- 9 MR. -- was the -- 10 MR. : Is that -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: That was the appropriate -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- in essence -- 11 MR. -- appropriate place for 12 MR. : -- accurate, or -? 12 him? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- in essence, it does 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- place for him. 14 because I would have had to explain and justify 14 MR. : Okay. 15 why, you know, certain inmates with certain 15 MR. question. 16 crimes are placed up there. Why am I placing 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 him? 17 MR. : Do you recall if there were 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 inmates in Ten South during that time? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: And then, the fact that, you 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Where? 20 know, he is a pre-trial individual, and needs 20 MR. : In -- 21 access to his attorneys, that unit is just too 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes, there were. 22 restrictive for that. 22 MR. : -- yeah. Do you know who 23 MR. : Now - and this is a total 23 those inmates were? 24 Monday morning quarterback -- 24 MR. N'DIAYE: El Chapo had left. I got 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 the one that ran the call with people in 99 100 1 Brooklyn. He was there. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 MR. : What was his name? 2 MR. : What does this CLC stand 3 MR. N'DIAYE: I forget. 3 for? 4 MR. : What did he do? What was he 4 MR. N'DIAYE: It's the Combined -. He's 5 in there for? 5 the supervisory attorney for Brooklyn and New 6 MR. N'DIAYE: That's the one that killed 6 York. 7 the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Oh, yeah. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: At the time. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the vehicle into them. 9 MR. : So, he's kind of, like, 10 MR. : Yeah, and then the guy kicked 10 the general counsel for Brooklyn and New York? 11 the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He was the 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 12 supervisor attorney. So -- 13 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: He was there. I remember 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he was in charge. 15 15 MR. : All right. So, this was 16 16 to you, and it was on Saturday, August 10th, 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 2019. It says, "Warden, per our conversation, 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Who else? We had 18 I spoke to two of his attorneys yesterday, 19 19 August 9th, 2019, primarily in relation to his 20 20 request for access to water in attorney 21 21 conference." 22 MR. All right. So, this is 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 11 23 along what we were just discussin . It says 23 MR. : "Attorne 24 that, this is from an , who's just 24 so, . Next word, . "With 25 a supervisory staff attorney. 25 whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had EFTA00064335 101 102 1 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 1 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 2 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 2 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Cadre is the camp. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4 MR. : Is that low level? 4 MR. : Since they're probably 5 MR. N'DIAYE: It's like our lower security 5 charging him 42,000 an hour. 6 inmates. Yeah. 6 MR. : "He acknowledged that he 7 MR. So, you have an actual 7 understood. To my recollection, neither 8 camp at the MCC? 8 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 9 MR. N'DIAYE: It's low security inmates. 9 watch or psychological observation during 10 But remember, they are designated. So, we 10 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 11 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 11 if you need any further information." Now, was 12 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 12 this just a request to any contact that he had 13 inmates to ether. 13 with his attorneys? 14 MR. : Okay. It says, "I 14 MR. N'DIAYE: He was just keeping me 15 advised we could not," since he was a pre- 15 informed because the attorneys were calling 16 inmate. 16 every days_witislifferent types of requests. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 MR. IIIIIIIIII: But this was the day, 18 MR. : "Later that day, but 18 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 19 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 19 would -- 20 attorney Michael on the phone. He had 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 21 MR. : -- he's talking about 22 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 22 context, just literally the previous day -- 23 not, based on his prior suicide 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 attempt/gesture." 24 MR. : -- that he was looking 25 MR. : It's just, I've never heard of 25 for different housing type arrangements. 103 104 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 MR. : Yeah. I'm looking at the 2 MR. . But all right. If -. 2 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 3 MR. That was 41,000 a phone call. 3 MR. : We're coming to - hey - 4 MR. . Excuse me? 4 we're almost halfway through. 5 MR. : That was 41,000 a phone call. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 (Indiscernible 01:18:2S) charging. 6 MR. : Well, that's the way you're 7 MR. Oh. Now, this answers 7 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 8 our question from before. So, this actually 8 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 9 says, it's from you to Mr. , it says 9 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 10 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 10 tomorrows. 11 were looking at. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Well. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 12 MR. : Now, you've already 13 MR. : So, it looks like July 13 answered this, but did you work at the MCC on 14 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 14 August 9th? 15 again, all these -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: For that -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: These are the attorney 16 MR. : 2019. 17 assignment. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was Friday. Friday, I 18 MR. -- (Indiscernible 18 was off. 19 *01:18:43). 19 MR. What about on August 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 20 10th, 2019? 21 MR. : Yeah. So, that does now 21 MR. N'DIAYE: 10th was a Saturday -- 22 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 22 MR. Correct. 23 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I was, I worked on 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 24 Saturday. 25 MR. Or the body. Okay. 25 MR. All right. But did you EFTA00064336 105 106 1 work in response to this? 1 showing who was -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I had to respond, if 2 MR. : This is a correctional 3 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 3 roster. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. -- correct. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah, I had to respond if 5 MR. Okay. 6 I came in. 6 MR. Correct. This is a 7 MR. : Okay. So, but you 7 correctional roster. Right. 8 weren't scheduled to work? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I wasn't scheduled to 9 MR. : So, who was, basically I 10 work. 10 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 11 MR. All right. This is just 11 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 12 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 12 aside from correctional? 13 case you need to reference it - these are 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the correctional 14 emails that were from you to Mr. , with 14 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 15 the staff roster. 15 roster. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 MR. : Like, R&D wouldn't do 17 MR. : And the reason I'm using 17 anything like that? 18 these is because these were literally sent on 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Because their staff are 19 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 19 already assigned to where they are working at. 20 rely on these -- 20 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. And they have rosters 22 MR. : -- based upon being so 22 that show where everyone is working at. But 23 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 23 not, likes_th2_cgfrectional officer roster. 24 It's showing who was working that day. And 24 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. So, I'm going to 25 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, 25 have you just initial and date. I'm going to 107 108 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need 1 MR. So, how -. So, Dr. 2 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 2 or Mrs. sent out that email, saying -- 3 need to look at who was working, and what 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 position -- 4 MR. : -- Epstein is required to 5 MR. N'DIAYE: There's two on there. 5 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 6 MR. : -- and what. Yes, 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 7 MR. : Who was required to make 8 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 8 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 9 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 9 aware of that requirement? 10 not attached to your email. Right? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the captain passes it 11 MR. : Yeah. You are right. 11 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 12 MR. : So, the August 9th one 12 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 13 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 13 if they are re uired a cellmate -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. Yeah. So, we had to pull 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that, you know, that he - 16 that from -- 16 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 17 leaves or oes out. 18 MR. : -- just for full 18 MR. : Now, someone such as an 19 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 19 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 21 prior, should all staff know that that person 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 23 MR. N'DIAYE: In the Special Housing Unit, 24 this requirement? 24 anybody working in there would know that he was 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That they were notified? 25 supposed to have a cellmate. EFTA00064337 109 110 1 MR. : Do you believe that there 1 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 2 was any anybody - especially anybody that's got 2 would have been on there, it would have been on 3 a quarterly bit of post there -- 3 there, too. So. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Would it have also been 5 MR. : -- but anybody that's 5 on the hot list, though? 6 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 6 MR. : Guys. I need an interpreter. 7 you believe that there could be a reason why 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 8 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 8 MR. ../hat does the hot list mean? 9 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 9 MR. : It's just -- 10 an acceptable excuse? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: That's -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Because you had the staff 11 MR. : -- sorry. 12 that usually work up there, were up there. It 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. I guess the high 13 should be, it should have been annotated on his 13 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 14 - what do ou call it? - it's called a 292. 14 MR. : Whether it's suicide, or high 15 MR. : The hot list, you are 15 risk for some other kind of problem? 16 referring to, or -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: It could be -. It's mainly 17 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Not the hot list. 17 for, like, suicide, just to -- 18 MR. : -- or what? Oh, you 18 MR. : Medical. 19 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- to watch out for. Yeah. 20 SHU -- 20 Medical. Okay. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 21 MR. IIIII: Seizures. You know, stuff 22 MR. : -- file. 22 like that? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: The SHU file. It should be 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. So. 24 annotated on the SHU file because, when you 24 MR. : So, point being is, do 25 come in, you have to annotate on there his 25 you think that, if any staff that is working in 111 112 1 that, you know, as we know, Mr. left - - 1 to bother2222±2_ 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 MR. IIIIIIIIII: No. No. 3 MR. : -- in the morning of 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. 4 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 4 MR. No, no, no, no. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- the morning of August 6 MR. I'm sorry, I thought you 7 10th. 7 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 situation of if we were in the MCC or 9 MR. : SHU staff that is working 9 something. 10 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 11 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 11 MR. : Oh, no. No. This is just a - 12 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 12 13 for them to say that we didn't know he was 13 MR. You're just wanting to 14 required to have a cellmate? 14 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 15 MR. N'DIAYE: No, because they did know, 15 fine. 16 because I - from what I understand - someone 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 17 MR. I guess we should wait 18 they knew. 18 until he gets -- 19 MR. : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 20 MR. -- back again. If we 21 MR. : One other question. I want to 21 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 22 open a box. 22 questions? 23 MR. Absolutely. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : That means I'm going to have 24 MR. : All right. We're going 25 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going 25 to continue, then. The answer was yes. EFTA00064338 113 114 1 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know if that was 1 it. 2 somebody. 2 MR. . That's super cool. 3 MR. : There might be clients in the 3 MR. : So. 4 office. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. Oh. 5 MR. : Sorry. I'll ask a few 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Huh? 6 more questions before we get into these 7 MR. Okay. 7 documents. Were any plans made on how to 8 MR. That's why. 8 address this situation for if was removed 9 MR. Then we will wait. 9 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 10 MR. : He wasn't kidding about the 10 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 11 knife. 11 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, the plan would 13 MR. : You know why I got this? This 13 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 14 movie called Gan s of New York. 14 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 15 MR. : That's a great movie. 15 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 16 MR. : And he - and a good movie - 16 leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 17 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 17 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 18 Diaz. 18 assessment would have been made. 19 MR. • Sure. 19 MR. : Okay. Now, what is your 20 MR. : And I had a wild eyed crush on 20 understanding of what happened with inmate 21 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 21 on August 9th, 2019? 22 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 22 MR. N'DIAYE: When I got back after the 23 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 23 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 24 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How 24 from the institution. 25 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is 25 MR. Okay. So, there is a lot 115 116 1 of people we've talked to thought he went to 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 court, and that at court, it was determined he 2 MR. -- from Charisma to 3 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 3 you. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: That's what I heard, too. I 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 5 MR. With inmate Epstein as 6 guess word got back that he wasn't coming back. 6 the subject. 7 That's what I heard. So, I never got 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 8 MR. : And it says, "So far, 9 MR. : It's either a good day in 9 this is the documentation I have in my 10 court, or a bad day in court. 10 possession." 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I never got the 11 MR. : Wow. 12 actual stiiiiiiiiiie I was, I was removed. So. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : Okay. And again, what 13 MR. : And if you see, you know, 14 does WAB mean? 14 here, it talks about all the documentation 15 MR. N'DIAYE: It means With All 15 pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP 16 Belongings. 16 database -- 17 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: But I don't know, and I 18 MR. : -- things. Then down 19 don't know if people will say that he left, and 19 here, it says, "Documentation re: 20 then they went and got him from the office. 20 21 So, I am not sure. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. Okay. So, this is -- 22 MR. reg number 85993-054. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 Cellmate." 24 MR. -- one of those documents 24 MR. : Right. 25 that says -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. EFTA00064339 117 118 1 MR. It says, "Court 1 something, or whatever -? 2 documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I think, and I'm speculating 3 MR. N'DIAYE: '19. 3 now, it was probably the court list, and it 4 MR. : -- '19. 4 probably said, we're sending him off to court. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 And it was a possibility that he might be 6 MR. : And then, also SHU file. 6 getting released. 7 So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 7 MR. : Because the document that 8 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring 8 has been alluding me -- 9 to there? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I guess whatever came 10 MR. : -- is that court 11 through R&D. 11 production list. Do you know if that was ever 12 MR. Mm-hmm. 12 obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Our Receiving and Discharge. 13 R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - 14 They might have gotten -. They must have 14 15 gotten information to release him, and that he 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, the court -- 16 was being transferred. 16 MR. -- different housing 17 MR. : So, would it be at all- I 17 units. 18 know R&D creates something called, like, a 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- list. I don't. I don't 19 court production list, or -- 19 know whatiiiiiiiiiiwith it. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 MR. : They just, they all say 21 MR. : -- would that be what 21 they -- 22 she's talking about, the court production list, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Now -- 23 or would she be, do you think -- 23 MR. -- destroy it after that 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 24 time. 25 MR. -- or, like, a PP-38, or 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, they do, but -- 119 120 1 MR. But -- 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- with him -- 2 MR. : -- and hand to 3 MR. : -- but that's what would 3 different, the ops lieutenant has one, every 4 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to 4 housing unit has one. Internal goes around and produce to the R&D. 5 collects people, based upon it or something. I 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Not necessarily. What 6 think. And then -- 7 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 8 up to SHU, and say, hey, I need down. He 8 MR. : -- then they basically 9 has court. Or he's being released. So, there 9 destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing 10 wouldn't have been a document sent up. 10 is maintained in the system. They just use a 11 MR. : So, everyone that we 11 template, and create a new one for every day. 12 talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that must have been the 13 document. 13 early court movement. So, I was under the 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 impression that he was, he left in the 15 MR. : And the SHU staff, 15 afternoon. So, when typically in the 16 including the OIC, said, yes, we had 16 afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, 17 documentation showing that he was WAB. So 17 we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he 18 then, and they all said it was because it was 18 had left that afternoon. 19 this court production list that you sent out 19 MR. : Okay. So, is it, then, 20 emails to -. 20 are you not - then to answer that question - 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Unless it's sent in the 21 are you not sure exactly what she's referring 22 early moriiiiiiiii, 22 to when she says "court documentation regarding 23 MR. : And it's not something 23 WAB"? 24 that's sent electronically. It's something 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Like, the way you explained 25 they said that they generate, print out -- 25 it, then that means they were talking about EFTA00064340 121 122 1 morning courts. 1 MR. : -- this might help 2 MR. Well, that's what they 2 explain this. So, this is an email that was 3 were -- 3 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4 named III (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50). 5 MR. -- I'm just talking about 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 6 MR. : On Thursday, August 8th, 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 7 2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of 8 MR. -- specifically, what 8 prisoners from NYM -- 9 she's talking about in this email to you. Do 9 MR. N'DIAYE: To GEO. 10 you -? 10 MR. : -- to GEO. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: But when you say WAB, With 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 12 All Belongings, it depends on the time of day 12 MR. : The following prisoners 13 they left. 13 are to be transferred." The seconiiiiiion 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 listed out of the two is, ' , 15 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? You could have 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 afternoon court, and you don't have that list 16 MR. : "85993-054." 17 generated, and say -- 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : But if -- 18 MR. : "Please schedule the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- we need all his 19 transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include 20 belongings. 20 seven days medication with the medical summary. 21 MR. : -- this might help -- 21 Thank you." 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 MR. : -- and then, we will keep 23 MR. : So, this obviously was 24 this in front of you -- 24 sent to R&D. Correct? 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 123 124 1 MR. : Do we know what kind of 1 And -- 2 medication he was taking? 2 MR. You're looking at the second 3 MR. : Well, that's 3 one. 4 . We're not talking about -. 4 MR. -- so, for the MCC -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: That's 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. . We're not -. 6 MR. : -- it shows rigtt_here, 7 MR. I know. I just am curious. 7 the second person listed as 8 MR. It's not -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : We don't know? 9 MR. : And it just says, "TF, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 transfer within. MCC New York." And right 11 MR. . -- relevant. 11 here, it says, Judge MCC III, . GEO. 12 MR. • Yeah. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. Okay. 13 MR. : What I was told, that 14 MR. • I don't think it's 14 means that he's transferring from the MCC to 15 relevant. Here is another email that the U.S. 15 GEO. Is that -- 16 Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 17 MR. : -- your understanding? 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 19 MR. 19 MR. : And then, on this one, 20 . It says, "Prisoner production." It 20 this is the PP-38. On the third - for 21 looks like it was sent to custody. 21 8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows , 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 from Z06-22. And that means the SHU. Correct? 23 MR. : On Thursday, August 8th, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. SHU. 24 2019, at 3:36 p.m. And then, this, this 24 MR. : To pre-remove. 25 document, prisoner schedule report is attached. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. EFTA00064341 125 126 1 MR. At 8:38 a.m. 1 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 they -- 3 MR. : So, this was 8:38 a.m. 3 MR. : Prosecutors. Marshals. 4 He's keyed out of our system. We got these two 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 5 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 5 MR. • Judge. 6 he's being_ILysferred. 6 MR. Okay. 7 MR. IIIII: So, wait. Let me get this 7 MR. : All in coordination, make 8 clear. He's being transferred to what place to 8 those determinations. But, and then, here is 9 what place? 9 an email from you to Mr. 10 MR. IIIIIIIIII: From the MCC to GEO. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : And what is GEO? 11 MR. : With what you are talking 12 MR. N'DIAYE: A contract facility. 12 about, that memo. 13 MR. : And what is a contract 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 facility? 14 MR. : It says, "On Friday, 15 MR. N'DIAYE: A private prison. 15 August 9th, 2019," but before we even get into 16 MR. : Okay. And you had nothing to 16 that, now that you have seen this, you have 17 do with -? In other words, somebody else 17 seen these two emails. 18 decides to go from one place to another -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 19 MR. : From the Marshal Service 20 MR. : -- you (Indiscernible 20 on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D 21 *01:33:11). Oka . 21 actually keys him out. 22 MR. : The Marshals -. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 MR. : And would that be the judge or 23 MR. : All of them say pre- 24 the Marshals? 24 removed or transferred. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: The Marshals, I guess. The 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 127 128 1 MR. Does that now tell you 1 from the Marshal Service -- 2 anything about this, court documentation 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 regarding WAB? 3 MR. -- and the fact that 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Now, it explains that 4 , whom -. Is it -? I've been told 5 they had gotten a court order to have him go 5 that everyone at the MCC knew who was 6 out. 6 because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate. 7 MR. : So, what do you think is 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 referred to that court documentation? 8 MR. : But at the very least, 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I guess it must be all of 9 ever one in the SHU should have known who 10 these documents right here. 10 was. 11 MR. IIIIIIIIII: This? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 12 MR. : Because he was Epstein's 13 MR. : So, what we're actually 13 cellmate. What should have happened once, on 14 looking at, you think she's referring to? 14 August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late 15 MR. N'DIAYE: That's, I think, that's what 15 as 3:33 p.m., the day before is 16 she was referrin to. 16 transferred, what should have happened? 17 MR. : All right. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: As far as Epstein getting a 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 18 cellmate? 19 MR. : So, court documentation 19 MR. : Correct. 20 meaning, documentation from the Marshal 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 Service, saying that he was going to be 21 MR. : The notification is being 22 transferred? 22 made that this person is being transferred, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 everyone gathers him up. And so, what this, 24 MR. : All right. Now, based 24 I'm going to read this just to give you more 25 upon what you are looking at here, specifically 25 information -- EFTA00064342 129 130 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 1 to R&D -- 2 MR. : -- on his backtrack. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th, 3 MR. -- with all belongings. 4 2019, to the warden - yourself. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 MR. Spoke with both Epstein 6 MR. : From , who, my 6 and Mr. , and stated to Mr. - I think 7 understanding is he was the OIC of the SHU at 7 stated to - make sure you get 8 the time. 8 him a cellmate. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : It says, "Subject passed 10 MR. I'm not coming back. And 11 information from Special Housing Unit." So, 11 responding to Mr. Epstein, saying, 12 "On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 12 "Don't worry. We're going to get you a new 13 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 13 cellmate." 14 p2.1 0 onto oncoming staff member, Officer 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 15 IIIII, aiiiiiisent shift staff, SOS and 15 MR. : Now, with all that 16 Officer , that inmate was going 16 information, being that he is the OIC, he's 17 WAB, and possibly may not return. 17 working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Also, that inmate Epstein 19 MR. : We've got all this stuff 20 will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from 20 going on. 21 his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 state is that Officer , or SOS 22 MR. : This is the real big 23 , walked, I mean, both Epstein -- 23 reason why I want to talk to you -- 24 MR. : I'll go get that. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 MR. -- as well as , down 25 MR. -- as the warden. 131 132 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 MR. : Which means - WAB means what? 2 MR. : This is kind of our 2 MR. : With All Belongings, 3 primary purpose -- 3 neans they:E_not coming back. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. IIIII: But Epstein is not coming 5 MR. : -- for us being here. 5 back? 6 So, I apologize if you're going into that, but 6 MR. No. 7 I want you to have all the information -- 7 MR. : His cellmate. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 MR. 9 MR. : -- before I answer. What 9 MR. 10 should have happened here? So, R&D is 10 MR. His cellmate. 11 contacted the day before, or two days before 11 MR. : So, the theory is, if you are 12 fplIgin, or Epstein is found. One day before 12 investigating, somebody says that you're not 13 IIIII is, you know, gone. They contacted both 13 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 14 custody, as well as R&D. 14 conversation, or present during that 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 conversation, is E stein? 16 MR. R&D pre-removes him at 16 MR. : Epstein is present. Yes. 17 8:38 on 8/09. 17 MR. : Okay. So, Epstein knows that 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 he's not going to have a cellmate for the 19 MR. The SHU OIC walks him 19 immediate future? 20 down, to R&D -- 20 MR. : No. Epstein is going to 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 attorney conference. So, he's going to be -- 22 MR. -- and actually has this 22 MR. : No, no, but I'm saying -- 23 conversation with Epstein and , saying, I 23 MR. : -- in attorney conference 24 know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new 24 until about 7:00 p.m.. 25 staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate. 25 MR. : -- that Epstein knows that, EFTA00064343 133 134 1 over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- typically, it would come 2 have a cellee. 2 up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up 3 MR. : No. , the OIC, 3 to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the 4 tells Epstein, as well as , that they are 4 lieutenants should have been notified. 5 going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes 5 MR. : Okay. And which 6 back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. 6 lieutenant? 7 MR. : Okay. So, Epstein would know 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever was the SHU 8 that he hiiiiiiiiiiing to have a cellmate. 8 lieutenant, whoever was the operations 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah. So, this 9 lieutenant. 10 isn't part of the theory. What my question to 10 MR. : Now, on this case -- 11 your client is, what should have happened based 11 MR. N'DIAYE: If the -. 12 upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The 12 MR. : -- the SHU lieutenant is 13 contact with the Marshal Service, telling him 13 also on leave. 14 that he's being transferred. The fact that 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, 15 MR. : So, we've got the chief 16 and R&D actually logged him out of our system. 16 psychologist on leave, the warden on leave, the 17 What should have happened? 17 SHU lieutenant on leave. But we do have an ops 18 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what should have 18 lieutenant, we do have an activities 19 happened was, this information should have been 19 lieutenant. And we do have a captain. 20 passed up to the supervisors. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: So, you should have let the 21 MR. : At what point? 21 operations lieutenant know, if you didn't have 22 MR. N'DIAYE: See, with the, this 22 a SHU lieutenant. They, in turn, would let the 23 information coming in, as far as, you know, 23 captain know, and the captain would push it up 24 when R&D -- 24 to the execs then. Then, we would have to come 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 to a determination on who we were going to 135 136 1 house with E stein. 1 who was Cannata (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59). 2 MR. : Now if the operations 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 lieutenant, his name is 3 MR. : However, as our 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 investigation has revealed, the ops lieutenant 5 MR. 5 also has one of these court production lists, 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 6 that lists 7 MR. -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 MR. : -- as WAB. 9 MR. : If he says, yes, I know 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at 10 MR. : With that knowledge, is 11 court -- 11 that a reason that he thinks that he went to 12 MR. N'DIAYE: No. You mean -- 12 court, and might be coming back? 13 MR. -- and he might be 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't interpret what his 14 returning back. 14 thought process was, but if it said, you know, 15 MR. N'DIAYE: is gone. 15 he was leaving, and I don't know what he was 16 MR...es. 16 reading at the time. 17 MR. : So, knows 17 MR. : Right. 18 that -. Sorry, did I say Epstein? 18 MR. N'DIAYE: He could have been reading, 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You said fipitlin. 19 because sometimes the inmates do go out to 20 Yes. IIIII knows 20 court and come back. So, I don't know. I 21 that is gone. 21 can't speak to what he read. Or why he made 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Am-hmm. 22 that determination. 23 MR. : But I think he's at 23 MR. : So, listen, wouldn't have most 24 court, and then, he might not be coming back. 24 inmates, when the go to court, come back? 25 I didn't pass this information onto my relief, 25 MR. : The point being here -- EFTA00064344 137 138 1 MR. N'DIAYE: What I'm saying -- 1 or it happens quite often? 2 MR. : -- he didn't go to court. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I wouldn't say. I 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 3 would say that it's probably unique. But 4 MR. : He was transferred. 4 usually, WAB they're gone. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: He was transferred. 5 MR. IIIIII: So, as the operations 6 MR. : And I know you might have 6 lieutenant, if you see somebody listed as WAR, 7 covered this, in your understanding, in your 7 should he have understood that that person is 8 experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed 8 gone, and not coming back? 9 as WAB -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Should have. But then, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 you're talking off the document. I don't know 11 MR. : -- With All Belongings -- 11 what document they read. So, I don't want to 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 12 speculate what, you know, was it, you know, 13 MR. : -- what is your 13 send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't 14 understanding? Are they coming back or are 14 know what document. But I'm saying, if it is 15 they gone? 15 this document, that clearly stated WAB. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: That means he's 16 MR. : Okay. But as far as your 17 transferrer 17 concern, it doesn't sound like what you were 18 MR. : Has there been situations 18 saying is, , who was the OIC at the 19 where they come back? 19 time, should have he notified the ops 20 MR. N'DIAYE: There have been -- 20 lieutenant? 21 MR. : After WAB? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. Whoever is - yeah - in 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- situations that, you 22 there should have notified the operations 23 know, they go out and they have to have them 23 lieutenant hey, left, and -- 24 sending them back, if there was an issue. 24 MR. IIIII: He needs a cellmate. 25 MR. : Is that a unique situation, 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he needs a cellmate, 139 140 1 MR. Okay. So, would it fall 1 himself. Until the end of the day. 2 solely on the shoulders of 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. But the information 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, okay, so, 3 is passed onto each other. You know, when you 4 here's the other checks and balance. So, what 4 5 about the other on the other shift? 5 MR. And they are supposed to 6 MR. IIIIIIIIII: That's my question. 6 be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 7 notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. 8 MR. : So, or -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Had zero inmates in it. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- or the people that are 10 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I mean -- 11 working on his same shift. 11 MR. : And that's what brings us all 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. On his own same, 12 to 13 shift -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 MR. : So, who -- 14 MR. : -- here today. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- if it was the 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 16 notification should have been made to the 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 operations lieutenant. Or the captain. And 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I mean, that's how it 18 said, hey cellmate left. He needs a cellmate. 18 would have made, and when that got pushed up, 19 MR. : Okay. 19 we would have said, okay, we would have to 20 MR. : And that cellmate would now, 20 formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, 21 at some point, he goes back to the cell, but 21 for Epstein? 22 that's at the end of the day. 22 MR. : And I apologize to ask 23 MR. N'DIAYE: At the end of the day. 23 this because, but, like, so, on each shift 24 MR. : Okay. So, nobody is in a 24 would be the OIC, that would beliiiiiiiible for 25 position to say, hey, he's in a cell by 25 that. So, for instance, would be on EFTA00064345 141 142 1 the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he 1 going on. So, it's kind of everyone's 2 would be the one to responsible to provide the 2 responsibilit . You know? 3 ops lieutenant, but then, the following shift, 3 MR. : So, is everyone kind of 4 would it be -- 4 equally responsible, then, for this? That was 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever is the -- 5 working there and didn't pass the information 6 MR. : -- the next OIC -- 6 on. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. 7 MR. : Can you say? Don't guess. 8 MR. : -- or would also the 8 MR. N'DIAYE: You know what? 9 people that are working in that unit, the other 9 MR. : No, as the warden, he 10 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 10 would be able to say. 11 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 11 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it should have been, 12 OIC is really the person making that 12 it should have been passed on. So, I don't 13 notification. 13 know the dynamics to, as far as what was going 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Everybody has a 14 on that day, who was working up there. What 15 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. I 15 rounds were been made -- 16 mean -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Sure. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- up there. You know, was 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I might be the OIC, but I 18 the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain? 19 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 19 How busy tl ieiv ie. 20 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 20 MR. : So, the lieutenant was 21 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 21 not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not 22 assigned to that post, and they're just filling 22 on. However, we do have records that the 23 in for somebody that, the regular person that's 23 activities lieutenant at least visited -- 24 up there. And then, I have the regular people 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 25 working up there, who are familiar with what's 25 MR. -- the SHU -- 143 144 1 MR. N'DIAYE: You have -- 1 brought this today - but there was even signs 2 MR. : -- at that point. 2 up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you have two other 3 minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or 4 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 4 something, you know, along the lines. Not, you 5 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 5 know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like 6 is a very bus unit. 6 7 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No, that was me. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, you're giving out 8 MR. : Is that right? 9 showers. You're giving out recreation. You're 9 MR. N'DIAYE: That was me. No. I mean, I 10 doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know, 10 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 11 running around all day, and, you know, 11 so, no one could say that they didn't know. 12 sometimes_Ihing2jappen. 12 MR. : So, point being, there 13 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Understood. But in this 13 was, like, signs specific to even Epstein, 14 case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile 14 check on this guy every 30 minutes. 15 inmate? At that time. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, besides 16 MR. : You know, orange signs 17 17 that are posted up there. 18 MR. Well, I guess, at least 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 19 the Nine South. 19 MR. So, point being, with 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I would say he was a high- 20 this -- 21 profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: It should have been passed 22 MR. : Is it, I mean, on that 22 up. 23 note, don't you think that they would have, you 23 MR. -- and that is where 24 know, found it pretty important to notify? 24 So, for us, I guess -- 25 Especially they - and I don't know that we 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. EFTA00064346 145 146 1 MR. -- again, and I know that 1 look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There 2 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate 2 is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's 3 on maybe saying, like, this person did 3 schedule literall y means prisoner's schedule. 4 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 4 MR. : Well, yeah. So, the 5 ball here? Knowing, though, that you could 5 prisoner's schedule report is something like 6 take a look, the day before, all these people 6 this, but it will tell you that they are either 7 are the ones who received the email -- 7 going to, like, transfer, or they are going to 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 go to court. Whereas this other document that 9 MR. : -- in custody. And so, I 9 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 10 know we see Lieutenant IIII. I'm sure - I'm 10 transfer. 11 assuming would be on there. 11 MR. : Okay. But there is nothing 12 MR. : I think is on there. 12 that says recreation, personnel care. It's 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Who? 13 mostly going to and from court, or leaving the 14 MR. : Is on there? 14 institution. 15 MR. : It's just -- 15 MR. : Yeah. Because it's a 16 MR. : I didn't see 16 prisoner's schedule. 17 MR. -- maybe. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : But again, this one, that 18 MR. Report. 19 one is not even as clear. This one 19 MR. Okay. 20 specificall s ells out -- 20 MR. So, it's, like, what they 21 MR. : Yeah. 21 are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's 22 MR. : -- this one, you would 22 not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like, 23 actually have to go in and look at this 23 in the institution. 24 prisoner's schedule report. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Okay. Let me just take a 25 MR. It's a U.S. Marshal 147 148 1 Service report that they just provided to the 1 dropped the ball? 2 BOP, so that they know which inmates -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, if we're looking at 3 MR. : Right. 3 it like this, if you're saying going by an 4 MR. : -- they need to produce, 4 email beiiiiiiiiiiiound. 5 and for what reason. 5 MR. : Well, not only the email, 6 MR. : Okay. Got it. 6 but I mean, the email, I can understand if 7 MR. : Now, is that correct? 7 people are busy and they don't always, you 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 8 know, this one -- 9 MR. : So, yeah. Based upon 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and 10 MR. : -- it would be hard to - 11 then again, what we know about at the 11 that one would be hard to -- 12 very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 13 WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. 13 MR. : -- you know, say that you 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you 15 MR. : What should have happened 15 know, the prisoner's schedule -- 16 there? Like, who, in your opinion here, 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, this one, I don't -- 17 dropped the ball? 17 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I think at all levels, it 18 *01:48:52). 19 was the checks and balance. If it went to the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I mean, I don't know what 20 lieutenant's office, somebody should have 20 gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I 21 picked it up. Working in the unit. It should 21 don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. I 22 have been passed up to the lieutenant's office. 22 think more -- 23 So, there were a couple of safety nets that 23 MR. : Well, this is -- 24 could haviiiiiiiiiit. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- of a condensed version. 25 MR. : So, pretty much everybody 25 MR. -- this is with this. EFTA00064347 149 'so 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 1 they actually look at that list and saying, or 2 MR. : So, this was what was 2 that's just based upon the busyness of their 3 sent with this. This was sent specifically, 3 day? 4 just that. It's not a document. That's the 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I wouldn't speculate. 5 body. 5 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That was sent. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But that is, again, R&D. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- lieutenant is looking at 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 stuff. I_Tals_itLs, like, the documents. 9 MR. : But, which again, R&D - 9 MR. IIIIIIIIII: No. I mean, but should 10 we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of 10 have they, I guess is the question? 11 custody. Correct? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: As far as what? Emails that 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 are comin throu h on who's leaving? 13 MR. : But speaking with R&D, 13 MR. : No, no, no. This would 14 they said they would have produced this list, 14 be a physical paper that they were provided. 15 which SHU would have had, as well as ops 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 lieutenant -- 16 MR. : Internal would go around 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 and provide everybody with this physical paper 18 MR. : -- the lieutenant's 18 that they create, and then, they apparently 19 office, all the housing units, which it listed 19 destroy it at the end of the day. 20 as WAB. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, I don't know if 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 22 MR. : Do you know if they are 22 go, they are dropping it off at different 23 actually looking - like, the lieutenant's 23 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 24 office, people in the lieutenant's office, or 24 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I 25 the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are 25 guess this probably be the only document -- 151 152 1 MR. No, no, no. 1 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they tear up. 2 list. 3 MR. : We are being told, by the 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 lieutenants, as well as -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: In the morning. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 MR. : Exactly. 6 MR. : -- by R&D, they all have 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, yeah, that's not 7 it, and they all, and it would all - and it 7 anything on record. 8 would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven't 8 MR. : Right. So, I guess the 9 found that document to show you this is what 9 question, though, being that they had these 10 I'm referring to. But it's a document they 10 court lists, is another one of these checks and 11 apparently create, which they call the court 11 balances? Or is that really just for the 12 production list. Are you -- 12 Special Housing Unit? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: The court list. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I think they -. You mean as 14 MR. -- yeah. 14 far as the court list, I don't understand your 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I've heard of the court 15 question, but -- 16 list. 16 MR. : Yeah. It's just getting 17 MR. But it's like a -- 17 back to the point of, like, left. We 18 MR. N'DIAYE: And it -. 18 were notified on the 8th. He left on the 19 MR. : -- from my understanding, 19 morning of the 9th. 20 it is an informal document that they are just 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 providing so that, you know, these are the 21 MR. : Epstein was found on the 22 people that we need to produce today. 22 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and 23 MR. N'DIAYE: For internal, yeah. The 23 we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have 24 internal officer goes around and drops them off 24 happened, and who didn't do their job? Is 25 at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I 25 really the question. EFTA00064348 153 154 1 MR. N'DIAYE: And like I said before, when 1 during the night shift - he would have come 2 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 2 back -- 3 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 up to hisiiiiiiiiiir. 4 MR. : -- and again, if they 5 MR. : All right. 5 were doing rounds, they would have noticed that 6 MR. N'DIAYE: This guy is leaving. But 6 wasn't there in the first place. But 7 then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is 7 also, certainly, when they brought -- 8 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Epstein back. 9 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 9 MR. : -- Epstein back to his 10 needs a cellmate. And notified the lieutenant 10 cell. There would have been no cellmate in 11 that he needs a cellmate. 11 there. 12 MR. : And that goes back to my, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: You should have known he was 13 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 13 a cellmate. 14 made that notification. 14 MR. : And would it be the same 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Should have said it. It 15 thing for the morning shift? That they would 16 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 16 know that Epstein was in there alone? 17 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Because if the morning shift 18 you. It's everybody's job up there to say, 18 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 19 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 19 realized he was in there by himself. 20 we need to do. 20 MR. : So, should have every 21 MR. : And would that be the 21 single shift reported it to the ops lieutenant, 22 case for, when he left during the day shift -- 22 that there is no one -? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever caught it should 24 MR. : -- the next shift is the 24 have, you know, let's say one shift missed it, 25 night shift, when he would have - I believe 25 the next shift should have picked up and said, 155 156 1 you know, called and said, lieutenant, we got a 1 working - said, what happened up there? 2 - this guy needs a -- 2 MR. : Now, when you say 3 MR. IIIII: A cellmate. 3 because he was the ops lieutenant, or are you 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- a cellmate. 4 talking about IIII, who was the SHU lieutenant? 5 MR. : And again, I know we're 5 MR. N'DIAYE: , who was the 6 Monday morning quarterback because of the 6 operations -. Because first, I know when I got 7 result here, but what is your - as the warden 7 back, somebody told me IIII wasn't at work, 8 of the institution, on these days - how do you 8 because that was my first question. Who was 9 interpret this? Is this a really significant 9 the SHU lieutenant? Where they are at. And 10 failure on their part, the not have caught this 10 then, I think I did reach out to , and 11 and passed that information up? 11 said, whaiiiiiiiiii up there? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: It's not following the 12 MR. : Okay. 13 directive. I mean, and then, look at result. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: And that's when I found that 14 MR. : Right. 14 out. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I mean, the result is 15 MR. And did you ever speak 16 what, you know, caused it to be a serious 16 with either or about this? 17 matter. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 18 MR. Okay. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Because by the time I had 20 MR. Now, as far Si back 20 gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the 21 to this memo, do you know why Mr. 21 day of, when I had to go up to, I think the 22 wrote this memo/ 22 U.S. Attoiiiiiiiiiiice. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I forgot. I might have 23 MR. : Okay. To speak with them 24 called -. I might have called Lieutenant 24 about this? 25 , and said - and I don't know if he was 25 MR. N'DIAYE: When I speak up to them, and EFTA00064349 157 158 1 them the iier Sadthe memorandum. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Because we had told him that 2 MR. : He already had it on him? 2 they knew that the were supposed to -. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: He had it on him. Because 3 MR. : So, not including when 4 he was during the interrogation, he presented 4 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 5 it to the U.S. Attorney that was there. 5 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 6 MR. : And was that the first 6 BOP, such as or 7 time you had seen it? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I just got the 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I think I -. I don't 8 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 9 recall when I first saw it, but I know I had 9 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 10 gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten 10 The, you know, the directives were given. What 11 it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then, 11 happened? 12 given it to the IC. I forgot. I forget his 12 MR. : And when you asked what 13 name, and who was handling the case. 13 happened, was there a verbal response? 14 MR. : For the IG? 14 MR. N'DIAYE: It was a verbal response. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 15 MR. : And what did you -? What 16 MR. 16 were you told? 17 MR. If you weren't giving it 17 MR. N'DIAYE: ThIIt!yknew he was 18 to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have 18 supposed to -. That had passed it on 19 been 19 to other individuals about it. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Because he sat in there with 20 MR. : Now, do you think that 21 us. 21 that -. What is your thought process of 22 MR. 22 , who is the one who actually presented 23 MR. N'DIAYE: So, he - I remember - he had 23 - excuse me - to R&D and WAR, what is 24 a copy of it. 24 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior 25 MR. Okay. 25 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed 159 160 1 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got 1 the one that brought him down to the - 2 to do it. 2 down to R&D. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Now -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Then that would make sense. 4 MR. : Do you think he should 4 Because if is internal, internal takes 5 have done it, passed the infraction on during 5 him to court. 6 his shift? 6 MR. Okay. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Absolutely. It 7 MR. N'DIAYE: And then, if somebody is 8 should have been letting the lieutenant know. 8 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 9 MR. : Uh-huh. 9 it would be SHU staff taking him. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: That, hey, this is - we got 10 MR. : All right. So, if 11 a guy that needs to be -- 11 is the one who is actually providing him to 12 MR. : A cellmate. 12 R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that needs a cellmate. 13 was WAB, to make any notifications? 14 MR. : I should clarify that. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know if internal -. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: What? 15 You know, was internal, and I don't know 16 MR. : I think on the elevator was 16 if he kneiiiiiiiiiiiw, the situation. 17 17 MR. : And typically, would it 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Ri ht. 18 be internals job - if they come and collect 19 MR. was escorting 19 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 20 down to R&D. And was escorting 20 control, or the ops lieutenant, to say this guy 21 Epstein over to attorney conference. They just 21 is off our books, or anything, or -? 22 happened toct ss2aths, I think -- 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Because we have a lot 23 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Yeah, they were together, 23 of inmates that move in and out. 24 though. lit? 24 MR. : Sure. 25 MR. : -- yeah, but I think is 25 MR. N'DIAYE: So, he wouldn't be able to EFTA00064350 161 162 1 keep track of every particular inmate that is 1 MR. Transferred. 2 going andlcomin iiiiiiiii 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- removed. That he was 3 MR. : Okay. Basically, 3 transferred. 4 everyone had a share of responsibility? 4 MR. Okay. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *01:57:54). 5 MR. N'DIAYE: When I came in on Saturday. 6 MR. : All right. Before we 6 MR. : Were you required - or I 7 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 7 mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service 8 initial and date these both documents. We can 8 had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019? 9 get them out of your way and move on. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I was not aware. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: All of them? 10 MR. : No? Well, did anyone 11 MR. Oh, yeah. Top of this, 11 ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever 12 top of this. 12 make you aware that was transferred from 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 13 the institution? 14 MR. This guy. You know, this 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Prior to October 10th? 15 one. All ri ht 15 MR. : August 10th. 2019. 16 MR. : Let me take this. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: I found out when I came in 17 MR. Thank you, sir. Now, 17 that I -- 18 prior to this meeting, did you know that 18 MR. : Okay. 19 was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was, like, where is his 20 to court? 20 cellmate? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Wait, prior to when? 21 MR. : Okay. So, you didn't 22 MR. : This meeting. 22 know that he didn't have a cellmate on August 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, no. I knew he -. I 23 9th? 24 heard that. You know? After his death, that 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I did not. 25 he was -- 25 MR. Now, who was ultimately 163 164 1 responsible to make sure that Epstein has a 1 to talk about counts. 2 cellmate? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, if it's the 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is 4 MR. Wait, wait. The notification. 5 working decide - passes it up, and then, that 5 Would that go up as high as you? If someone 6 ensures, you know, to make sure he has a 6 would say? 7 cellmate. So -. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: They would send it up to the 8 MR. So, SHU staff. 8 lieutenants, then they would tell the captain. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever was working up 9 And the captain would let the associate warden 10 there. 10 know, and then it would get up to me. 11 MR. Okay. When you say 11 MR. : Especially an instance 12 working up there, does that include, like, 12 since you have a say in who -- 13 lieutenants doing lieutenant rounds and things 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 like that? Or -? 14 MR. : gotcha. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, yeah, from what 15 MR. N'DIAYE: We would have to sit down 16 transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants 16 and say, okay, of all the available individuals 17 didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based 17 that are on the unit now, who can we house 18 on the email that, you know, they knew he was 18 Epstein with? 19 leaving, but as far as when the finality of it 19 MR. : Now, what about in the 20 was, when you realize, okay, is gone. 20 this case, where as you actually weren't 21 You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his 21 working that day, would that -- 22 cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 23 something should have went off on somebody to 23 MR. : -- should have they 24 make some notifications. 24 called you -- 25 MR. Okay. I know we're going 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Whoever is -- EFTA00064351 165 166 1 MR. -- on the -? 1 MR. Okay. So, they are not - 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- whoever was the acting 2 3 warden. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 4 MR. That would make the 4 MR. : -- but what, is that 5 determination? 5 executive assistant just mainly to assist you 6 MR. N'DIAYE: She would have made the 6 in your functions? 7 determination to. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: He assists in the functions. 8 MR. Who was the acting warden 8 I had also given him some other departments to 9 that day, do you know? 9 monitor. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know if I left 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 in -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: So, they manage, also, those 12 MR. Okay. 12 other departments. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- as the acting. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. One of those two. 14 MR. : I just got a question. I 15 MR. N'DIAYE: It would be one of those 15 don't know if you may be asked him about the 16 two. 16 backup list. Was there a backup list of names? 17 MR. And it wouldn't be the 17 MR. N'DIAYE: For? 18 18 MR. : I think, I think we did 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. He's the executive 19 talk about it, but if - we did -- 20 assistance. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. Now, what is the 21 MR. -- but -- 22 difference between, like, an executive 22 MR. : Sorry. 23 assistance and an AW? 23 MR. -- when we talked about 24 MR. N'DIAYE: The associate warden is a 24 if was removed because the institution 25 GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13. 25 always has people coming and going -- 167 168 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed 2 MR. : -- so frequently, was 2 by M. and Ms. Noel. 3 there, like, a list that was set in place, that 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 we would now consider these people, or would it 4 MR. : And it says, that count 5 be just the whole new -? 5 was done, it looks like, at -- 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Because we would have 6 MR. N'DIAYE: 12:01 a.m. 7 to base it on who was there. 7 MR. : 12:01 a.m. And then, 8 MR. Okay. 8 we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Because of the turnover in 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 the unit. 10 MR. : It goes down to 72. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : All right. Now, we're 12 MR. : At 5:00 a.m., there is 13 going to get into counts. 13 72. And here is the count, the institutional 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m. 15 MR. So, this is an email sent 15 Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m. 16 from you to Mr. . It's the count slips 16 MR. N'DIAYE: 3:00 a.m. 17 for -- 17 MR. : I don't know why this is 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 all out of order. 5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00 19 MR. -- it was sent on 19 a.m., this says 72. 72. 20 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 20 MR. : I think that was just an -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : 72. 22 MR. : This shows, ZA is the 22 MR. -- attachment to that email 23 SHU. Correct? 23 that you sent. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 MR. So, but as you know, as 25 MR. So, this says, at 8:10, 25 you notice, one of them said -. So, the count EFTA00064352 169 170 1 slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the 1 units call in the count to control center. 2 institutional count. And as you see here, for 2 MR. : And how do they get that 3 12:00 a.m. it said 72. 3 count number? 4 MR. IIIII: By the institution, you mean 4 MR. N'DIAYE: From counting. They have to 5 the SHU? 5 go around and count. 6 MR. No. The institution. 6 MR. Physically counting an 7 MR. N'DIAYE: It means the whole. 7 inmate? 8 MR. MCC does a count -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: You have to -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 MR. : Correct? 10 MR. -- and -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- physically count the 11 MR. Right. 11 bodies. 12 MR. -- its' what the official 12 MR. And then, they take that 13 13 total amount of inmates, and they call that 14 MR. The count. 14 into the control center? 15 MR. • -- number show -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: They call that into the 16 MR. Yeah. Okay. 16 control. 17 MR. • -- the SHU, these count 17 MR. : And where does the 18 slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let 18 control center get their numbers from? 19 you, you can answer my question. What is 19 MR. N'DIAYE: This is what is called an 20 supposed to be the difference between what 20 El. Which is a print out of the number of 21 happens with the count slip, and what happens 21 inmates in each unit. 22 with the institutional count? So, I'm not 22 MR. : Right. 23 answering your question. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: So, if an instance, for 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what happens is, on the 24 example, we look at BA unit. So, there is 25 shift, you call the count, and the different 25 supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls 171 172 1 it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me 1 sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on 2 it's a bad count. 2 August 10th. It says, "Why did the count 3 MR. Mm-hmm. 3 change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and 4 MR. N'DIAYE: So, they have to go back and 4 3:00 a.m.?" 5 count again. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. So, the El is created 6 MR. : Do you remember what your 7 based upon what inmates are listed within your 7 response was to that? 8 system. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 MR. : And then, this one is 10 MR. : The count slips are based 10 another one from to yourself. 11 upon how many inmates they actually count. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: What they count. 12 MR. : It says, "The 12:00 a.m. 13 MR. : And the purpose of that 13 count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. -- 14 is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates, 14 MR. N'DIAYE: El. 15 and why are they providing that number to 15 MR. : -- El says 72." 16 control? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So, we make sure every 17 MR. : So, those kind of go 18 inmate is in the institution. 18 together. Do you remember what your findings 19 MR. : The countability of the 19 were there? 20 inmates. Correct? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't remember. Because 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 21 typically what happens on the count, you are 22 MR. : Great. So, the - so, 22 supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to 23 does that answer your question? 23 take one count at night, and then review 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 documentation. So, I don't know what happened 25 MR. So, the next email is 25 with the discrepancy. EFTA00064353 173 174 1 MR. : I mean, this isn't really that 1 what, howiiiiiiiiiied to them on that day. 2 relevant, because we noted Epstein was there. 2 MR. : Do you remember learning 3 MR. : No. It's relevant for 3 anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of 4 our investigation. 4 the counts, on the 9th and 10th? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean the 6 MR. : All right. So, if you 6 accuracy and inaccuracy? 7 don't mind, just initialing and dating that, 7 MR. : Like, if the counts were 8 and then, we can explain to you why that is 8 actually accurate or not. 9 relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't recall that. 10 didn't find out what actually happened? 10 MR. : You don't recall -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't recall what the 11 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I can't think of that. 12 response.1, 12 MR. -- finding out about 13 MR. : No? And do you remember 13 that? 14 looking into it at all? 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: When was that sent? 15 MR. : Did you recall, did you 16 MR. That was the day -- 16 find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not 17 MR. N'DIAYE: When did he send it? 17 conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 18 MR. -- that was the day of. 18 2019? By the SHU staff. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: The day of. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: If they did rounds or not? 20 MR. The day Epstein was 20 MR. : Correct. Did you find 21 found. 21 out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- 22 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't because it was just 22 minutes rounds, as well as the institution 23 so much goin on. 23 counts on August 9th and 10th? 24 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know if it was after 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That I can't really remember 25 the fact that I was told that the Officer did 175 176 1 make their rounds. And I don't recall if it 1 MR. N'DIAYE: That they didn't? 2 was, they put it in the logbook, that they made 2 MR. : That they did not. 3 rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't 3 MR. N'DIAYE: It was - and I don't want to 4 done. 4 use the word that it was just, you know, an 5 MR. : Okay. 5 assumption, you know, like, because one of 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that might have been 6 them, I had asked to come up and speak with, 7 something that came up afterwards. 7 but it was Thomas he wouldn't come up. 8 MR. : But you are not super -. 8 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And this was on the 10th 9 You know, this, you don't really know what 9 in the morning? 10 happened or didn't happen? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: This was on the 10th, when 11 MR. N'DIAYE: That day. Because I mean, 11 we got him up, because I wanted to speak with 12 it happened that weekend, everything was 12 him because people were telling me he was 13 moving, and then, by Monday -- 13 distraught. 14 MR. : Right. So -- 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- everything lese just 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I wanted to make sure he 16 changed. So -- 16 was all right. You know? And he just, he 17 MR. : -- but on the 10th or 17 didn't want to come up and talk. 18 11th, you didn't hear -- 18 MR. : What are your thoughts of 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I didn't -- 19 Thomas as an employee? 20 MR. : -- find out? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I've known Thomas a couple 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- hear anything about, 21 years. I never had any issues with him. You 22 recall an thin that. 22 know, it was any, you know, like any other 23 MR. : But had you heard that 23 employee, you do something, I correct you on 24 they didn't at least conduct some of their 24 the spot, and that's it. But I have never 25 rounds and counts? 25 encountered him to do anything, known him not EFTA00064354 177 178 1 to count,iiiiiiiiib, you know? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *02:09:34). 2 MR. : What about Ms. Tova Noel? 2 MR. : -- one of her excuses, 3 MR. N'DIAYE: She was new. So, she had 3 saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them, 4 just gotten there. You know, she got the same 4 they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it. Is 5 spiel from me that everybody else does. You 5 that something you clearly entrust -- 6 know? You are new. You can't do the things 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, here's my speech -- 7 that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it. 7 MR. : -- to her? 8 They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- my spiel I used to tell 9 following it. 9 people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20 10 MR. And did you 10 year guy, and you are on probation, guess what 11 MR. N'DIAYE: So -. 11 happens? He might get some time in the street. 12 MR. -- actually speak with 12 You're gettin fired. 13 her about that? 13 MR. : And are you confident 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, I do that in my 14 that Ms. Noel would have heard that speech from 15 (Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they 15 you? 16 first come in. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: She heard the speech from 17 MR. Okay. So, that is 17 me. 18 something -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: And I had -. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I'm confident. 20 MR. -- you would have said to 20 That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing 21 everyone? 21 in the ART. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, I said it clear as day. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 And same thing I would say in my ART class. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 24 Annual Refresher Training. 24 MR. : Good enough. 25 MR. Because this is -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 179 180 1 MR. All right. So, this is 1 MR. ..1o, no. This is afternoon. 2 going to go back. This is just my little list 2 MR. Yeah. So, this is 3 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 3 Friday. 4 I'll read to you, but -- 4 MR. : I'd say (Indiscernible 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 *02:10:40)-- 6 MR. : I just want just for 6 MR. All right. Friday. Is 7 our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and 7 that a -- 8 you can refer to them. On this one, at first, 8 MR. -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41) 9 going to be the count on the 9th, that was 9 MR. • -- 4:00 p.m. -- 10 conducted at -- 10 MR. You told him about overnight. 11 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 11 MR. • -- count? 12 MR. -- is this 4:00 p.m. Is 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count. 13 this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here? 13 MR. : It's a 4:00 p.m. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No. This? 14 MR. • Yeah. 15 MR. ..:00 p.m. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 16 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count. There's 16 MR. Then 4:00 p.m. Then 17 just signed off -- 17 there is the 8:00 p.m. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. There's no 4:00 p.m. 18 MR. : No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00. 19 count. 19 MR. • 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 20 MR. -- yeah, it's the 5:00. 20 Sorry. 21 MR. : 5:00. Sorry. 21 MR. : And midnight. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. It's -- 22 MR. 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 23 MR. : Yeah. 23 Midnight. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- 12:00. 12:00. 3:00. 24 MR. and 5:00. 25 And 5:00. 25 MR. : 3:00. And 5:00. So, EFTA00064355 181 182 1 these are basically the time period in 1 MR. So, where would this -? 2 question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through 2 This is just out of order. This should have 3 the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th 3 been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 4 and 10th. 4 sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 5 question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 6 MR. : Here are the lieutenant 6 sends one at 5:11 a.m. 7 logs. And these are the emails that, again, 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 I'm going, just going over these just because, 8 MR. : And Saturday, she sends 9 so I'm not blowing things out of thin air. 9 it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. 10 These are the -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : And on Sunday, August 12 MR. : -- yeah, emails that we 12 11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. 13 were able to obtain. So, this was from a 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 . Who was the ops 14 MR. : Now, reviewing all of the 15 lieutenant at that time. 15 lieutenant logs that came out prior to that 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 time, they are all sent out pretty much between 17 MR. : Fairly regularly. 17 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : And during the morning 19 MR. : -- by all the various -- 20 watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It 21 MR. : ops lieutenants. Do 22 says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily 22 you find it odd that she didn't send this one 23 activity report. And then, we got the daily 23 out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein 24 lieutenant's log here. 24 was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 were sent out much earlier than that. 183 184 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 the institution around then. 2 MR. : Is that -? I know she 2 MR. : She - after Epstein was 3 sent it out after the incident, and after, you 3 found - she actually went into the SHU. She 4 know, everything happened, but do you think it 4 helped with feeding. And then, she went back, 5 was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26 5 and she did some things on the computer. 6 a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her 6 MR. N'DIAYE: I thought -- 7 shift ends at 6:00 a.m.? 7 MR. : And she sent it. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean -. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I thought IIII relieved 9 MR. : She was relieved at S:30 a.m. 9 her, and she left. 10 by Lieutenant 10 MR. : At 5:30 a.m., she was 11 MR. N'DIAYE: That's what I'm saying. She 11 relieved. She stuck around because she said 12 wasn't at the -. When I got there, Lieutenant 12 she had work to do. After Epstein was found, 13 was the lieutenant -- 13 she came to the SHU, and assisted 14 MR. : Correct. 14 who also wasn't working in the SHU, but 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- who contacted me 15 was there because he was the Comtech guy. And, 16 regarding -. 16 at the time, was gone. Noel was there. 17 MR. She was supposed to be 17 But at some point, Noel left. 18 gone by 5:30 a.m. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: And I'm looking_at this, but 19 MR. N'DIAYE: So, yeah. I don't know. If 19 I was under the impression, when MI had told 20 she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know 20 me he had relieved her, and she left. 21 how they (Indiscernible 02:13:07). 21 MR. : So, do you find that odd, 22 MR. : Well, that's when she was 22 then, that she was still there until -- 23 relieved. She didn't leave until after this 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Until 9:30. 24 was sent out at 9:26 a.m. 24 MR. : -- at least 9:30 a.m.? 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't recall her being in 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I didn't, I didn't -. EFTA00064356 185 186 1 Yeah. 1 you at all? 2 MR. : This is the first you're 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Kind of. Yeah. But I'm 3 hearing of this? 3 curious as to why you didn't log it down 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Because when I was 4 something. 5 told she aic,e. So, unless -- 5 MR. : Now wh -? What kind of 6 MR. : Because you wanted to 6 employee is 7 talk with her? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Had some issues with her. I 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no. I mean, he relieved 8 mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything 9 her. So, I guess, technically, when you 9 that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't 10 relieve somebody, then it becomel_y2ur issue. 10 want to go speaking on allegations that I have 11 So, I was talking to Lieutenant IIII. But I 11 sent up. 12 didn't want, you know, I assumed she was the 12 MR. : Was she a problem 13 one that -. But I heard she had left. I 13 employee, then? 14 didn't know she had come back. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I had some issues. Yeah. 15 MR. : She allegedly did not 15 MR. : Any reason why she 16 come back. She allegedly was there -- 16 believed that she might be involved with 17 MR. N'DIAYE: There. 17 Epstein and his death? 18 MR. : -- the entire time. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, no. I wouldn't put it 19 MR. N'DIAYE: So then, that is kind of 19 as far as that. I mean, but it is just, I 20 odd, because usually, your log is completed 20 wouldn't. And I don't know -- 21 before you leave. 21 MR. : She's (Indiscernible 22 MR. : Right. 22 *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- 23 MR. N'DIAYE: On your log, you will write 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I mean -- 24 on there, relieved by such and such. 24 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). 25 MR. : So, is that suspicious to 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's why I went over -. 187 188 1 Can you rephrase your question, like, what are 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- she has the allegations 2 we saying? 2 up. I know you guys were seeing the 3 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I'm going 3 allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go 4 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 4 that far. But I can't -. 5 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 5 MR. : Well, is she in a position to 6 6 do something like that? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: What? 8 MR. : -- to probably, could you 8 MR. : To leave the door open, or 9 -. Was there any reason to believe that she 9 somethingliiiiiiiiiregious? 10 could be potentially involved with this? 10 MR. : She does lieutenant 11 MR. N'DIAYE: As far as doing harm to him? 11 rounds. 12 MR. : Keeping his cell door 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 13 open. And letting another cell door open for 13 MR. : She's the ops lieutenant. 14 someone else. You know -- 14 MR. : She is in position to do that. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I wouldn't -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: But remember, when you are 16 MR. : -- anything like that. 16 going down range and the range door keys, you 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I wouldn't see that. 17 can't have both. Somebody would have to let 18 MR. : No? 18 her down there. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I couldn't see that. No. 19 MR. Okay. 20 MR. : No reason to believe it 20 MR. N'DIAYE: And those keys. Those keys 21 would go that far, just maybe insubordination 21 go down. 22 is the highest that she goes? 22 MR. Do you know if she was 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I would, you know, I 23 particularly friendly with either Noel or 24 24 Thomas? 25 MR. She -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know what their EFTA00064357 189 190 1 relationship was. She was the shift 1 Sorry. 2 lieutenant. So, I don't know what 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Can I see the time 3 relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible 3 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? 4 *02:16:48. 4 MR. : Just, I just want to confirm 5 MR. : For the 8th, I just realized 5 with that. 6 we might not have the daily log for it. 6 MR. : Of course. Yeah, yeah. 7 MR. : Fortunately, I brought 7 Okay. That's the August 9th. 8 backups of different things. So, I think I got 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 9 MR. Okay. Great. 10 MR. Jesus Christ. 10 MR. So, those two. 11 MR. : The 9th and the 10th is in 11 MR. Yeah. 12 there. 12 MR. : That's the previous date we 13 MR. : I keep looking at this pile. 13 don't have. 14 I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are 14 MR. All right. 15 working hard. 15 (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All 16 MR. I don't think the 9th is 16 right. So, what did you want to see? 17 in there. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I wanted to see that 9:26 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 18 one. 19 MR. lust the 10th. 19 MR. Yeah. So, that is -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. No, no. It's the second set. 21 MR. : -- and this is what we 22 MR. No, that's the 10th. 22 were going to show you, is the count numbers, 23 MR. : No, the dates are -- 23 that's what we are getting at next. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Can I say -? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Wait. Which is the one -? 25 MR. : -- the following dates. 25 MR. So, this is from Friday, 191 192 1 August 9th. 1 MR. -- Saturday, August 10th. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. This is at what time? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, I get that. So, she 3 MR. : This just, that says morning 3 started. Her shift was morning watch on 4 watch. 4 Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she 5 MR. Ish. 5 is relievILLLieutenant 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, but why is it saying 6 MR. 'I'll': So, no, no. 7 the 10th? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No, this is -. This should 8 MR. : So, it was, the email was 8 be Thursd,ii_into Friday. 9 sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when 9 MR. 'I'll': Yes. 10 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. No. I -- 11 MR. : So, she was -. Her -- 11 MR. : So then, it goes -- 12 MR. M.- she included everything - 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. See. I thought 13 13 this was -- 14 MR. • -- shift -- 14 MR. : -- into day watch. 15 MR. -- everything from the 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the day of. Then you go 16 previous day. 16 to day watch, and it goes to evening watch. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, but this is August 17 Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the 18 9th. 18 day of? 19 MR. They sent it out the day 19 MR. : So, this is the day of. 20 after. 20 MR. I i Mn-hmm. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Epstein is back. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 22 MR. So, see this one? This 22 MR. : And this is, we are going 23 one is sent out on Sunday, August 11th, for the 23 to get into. So, this one is the day before, 24 day prior, starting -- 24 August 9th, when left, and we can look to 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So -- 25 see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if EFTA00064358 193 194 1 we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it 1 MR. : The 10th morning. Saturday 2 sayl_Ihat is pre-removed. Right here. 2 morning. 3 "IIIII to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m." 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- this is when she sent it 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So -- 4 out. 5 MR. : That is August 9th, 2019. 5 MR. : Correct. Like, three 6 So, we're going to go all the way down to -. 6 hours after Epstein was found. 7 The one thin I guess -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: And this is -- 8 MR. : So, the count -- 8 MR. : (Indiscernible 9 MR. : -- we want to look at is, 9 *02:20:03). 10 here, we got this individual, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- Friday's log. 11 (Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell 11 MR. : Correct. 12 with staff in R&D watch. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: That that's -. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 13 MR. : But they - the same 14 MR. : From the SHU. So, if you 14 thing, though - they all seem to sending it out 15 look at the count -. Where the heck is the -? 15 the day before. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So, I just want to go 16 MR. N'DIAYE: The day before. And then, 17 back to ciiiiiiiiiiething with -- 17 she sent the day before logs out on Saturday. 18 MR. : Yup. 18 Yeah. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- with Lieutenant 19 MR. : She combined it. If you look 20 So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it. 20 through it, it has everything combined. 21 Right? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 22 MR. : 9:26. 22 MR. : It goes from morning watch, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: So - 9:26 -- 23 day watch, evening watch, into -- 24 MR. : She did it. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. But I'm just -. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- this was on -- 25 That should have been done the day before. 195 196 1 Okay. 1 MR. -- 6:00 a.m., but got 2 MR. I don't think you're 2 relieved at 5:30. So -- 3 right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: That's right. 4 The next day does the 10th. 4 MR. : -- yeah. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. That's right. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: The lieutenants were working 6 MR. MiYeah. Okay. 6 from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00. 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:20:41) 7 MR. : Correct. Because the, we 8 combined. 8 were told because of traffic issues -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. That's what -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- or something else. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's why I'm a little 11 MR. N'DIAYE: And short -. Yeah. 12 confused about. 12 MR. : So, what we want to, and 13 MR. Yeah. No. She's not -- 13 I want to kind of reference here is, III 14 MR. Because when she came -- 14 on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&O. 15 MR. -- she does the day 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 before. 16 MR. And the end of this shows 17 MR. : -- she came on shift at 10:00 17 72. 18 p.m. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. She started her shift at 19 MR. So, on August 9th, 2019, 20 10:00 -- 20 at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 21 MR. 10:00 p.m. 21 a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates, 22 MR. : -- p.m. 22 according to this log that sent 23 MR. Of the 9th -- 23 out. 24 MR. And worked until -- 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 25 MR. -- evening. 25 MR. There is supposed to only EFTA00064359 197 198 1 be 72 inmates there. 1 Although, the institutional count says 72. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 Now, not , but the next one 3 MR. : Now, look at the shift 3 shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that 4 for August 10th, when this person started their 4 73 is what is written in this. She went back 5 shift, there was 73. 5 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 6 because it was determined -- 7 MR. : And the institutional 7 MR. N'DIAYE: That he was on the outcount, 8 logs -- 8 and on -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. 9 MR. : -- oh, yeah. 10 MR. : -- show at 12:00 a.m., 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- (Indiscernible 11 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there 11 *02:22:57iiIIIIIIII 12 is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at 12 MR. : And so, was 13 the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count, 13 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 14 there shows 73. And then, at the midnight 14 on this. "One SHU correction. dry 15 count, there it says 72. However, the count 15 cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have 16 slips, if ou recall -- 16 ri ht here. 17 MR. : 73. 17 MR. : Looking back. 18 MR. -- where are the count 18 MR. : Okay. So, this just 19 slips? So, it is -- 19 says, this is what happened with him. He was 20 MR. : The counts. 20 found to have contraband, that he was providing 21 MR. -- it says the SHU 21 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 22 submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m. 22 like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was 23 Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh, 23 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 24 yeah. There. So see? 12:00 a.m., they 24 never -- 25 submit it. Noel submitted 73. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Keyed in. 199 200 1 MR. -- keyed out. 1 MR. Right. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: What - yeah - what they 2 MR. N'DIAYE: There should have been a 3 should -- 3 count slip for him over there. So, what should 4 MR. : Keyed out of the SHU. 4 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 5 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 5 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 6 MR. N'DIAYE: 73. 6 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 7 MR. : 73. That is what the 7 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 8 SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is 8 him should have did a count slip on him. And 9 what - that's what, according to the system, 9 then, whoever his back up was should have done 10 was supposed to be in there. But if they had 10 a count sli 11 physically -- 11 MR. : And this is, from my 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Counted. 12 review of everything -- 13 MR. : -- counted -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: They would have known -- 14 MR. : -- this is what I found. 15 MR. -- it would have -- 15 I don't want to put my words into 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he wasn't there. 16 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to 17 MR. -- been 72. Correct? 17 you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 19 MR. : So, with this 19 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 20 information, and I guess as the warden, would 20 lieutenant log from August 9th, 2019." So, 21 that suggest to you that they were not actually 21 that's what we are looking at here. 22 conducting their counts? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: They weren't counting. And 23 MR. : "The day began with 77 24 then, there is no count slip here for the 24 inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The 25 inmate that was on dry cell in R&D. 25 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA EFTA00064360 201 202 1 SHU count slips, a es on count shows 77. At 1 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to 2 8:38 a.m., inmate is pre-removed from ZA 2 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate (Phonetic Sp. 3 for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. 3 *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it 4 The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. 4 down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. 5 was removed from the institution and does 5 *02:26:15) and William is moved to ZA, to 6 not - and should not - appear on any counts at 6 suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down 7 this time. 7 to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina 8 At 3:15 p.m., inmate was placed 8 (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into 9 on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the 9 ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. 10 accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant 10 The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 11 log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 11 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates 12 inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney 12 assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 13 conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates 13 shows 73." Oh, this is another one. I don't 14 that was not keyed out of the SHU, 14 think we brought this. "One of the counts 15 and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 15 actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that 16 shows 75. Inaccurate. 16 in there? 17 It should have reflected 74 because, 17 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. 18 although there were 75 inmates assigned to the 18 MR. : Okay. 19 SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There 19 MR. : I admire your guys' 20 were no inmates assigned to RA on the El 20 (Indiscernible *02:26:48). 21 institutional count, and there was no count 21 MR. Yeah. You would also -. 22 slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the 22 This is all robably -- 23 problem begins. 23 MR. 7.3 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. -- all Chinese to you. 25 MR. "At 6:34 p.m., inmate 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That's how our count slips - 203 204 1 1 is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are 2 MR. -- now, I did foreign 2 supposed to have the accurate count. You can't 3 language -- 3 do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have 4 MR. : I don't understand -- 4 74 on there. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- should be done. 5 MR. : Or, in this case, it 6 MR. : -- the fuck are you talking 6 should be 73 minus one because the accurate 7 about. 7 count was actually 72. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No, but you wouldn't write 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Huh. 9 minus one on there. You would write the actual 10 MR. : This is -- 10 count on there. 11 MR....I these initials, and this, 11 MR. Right. 12 and that. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but the count -- 13 MR. Okay. 14 MR. : So, which is interesting 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- either it was 72 or 74. 15 is all of these are, as you notice, crossed 15 MR. Right. 16 off. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: But there is no -- 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. 17 MR. : All right. Guys, I'm going to 18 MR. : These two are not crossed 18 19 off. This one says 9S + 1. This one says 73 + 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- such thing as -- 20 1. The question had been, when did this 20 MR. : -- splash water on my face 21 happen? 21 again. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- okay. There is no such 23 MR. : When did they put these 23 thing -- 24 plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out? 24 MR. : You guys are getting ready to 25 MR. N'DIAYE: But you can't do a -. This 25 kill me. EFTA00064361 205 206 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- there is no such thing as 1 MR. -- you check it off. 2 plus one on the -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that's what I want to 3 MR. : Right. 3 know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- on that. 4 I'm lookipg_A_-. 5 MR. : You're not allowed to MR. So, basically, I think it's 6 ghost count. Correct? 6 standard practice, as a control officer? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. There should have 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, I've worked 8 been an outcount done. So, and this should 8 control, and what I would do is, I would do the 9 have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant 9 check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -. 10 was, because they have to, you know, on each 10 And that's eo le's style. 11 shift, conduct a count, and review the count 11 MR. : Okay. 12 slips. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: That might be their style. 13 MR. : Does this tell you 13 So, I just want to know -. 14 anything, though, that these were crossed off, 14 MR. : This one is IIII 15 and these weren't? 15 (Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Unless, I don't know 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Huh? 17 why -- 17 MR. : 18 MR. : Do you think that they 18 MR. N'DIAYE: So then -- 19 were replaced at a later date, or -? 19 MR. : This one. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it gives the 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- then that's how does 21 appearance. Because at first, I would want to 21 it. So, my question is then, why isn't this 22 know, why ou cross out. Why these -- 22 done -- 23 MR. : They cross out because, 23 MR. Right. 24 as things come in -- 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- like that. I mean, 25 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 25 this, if IIII does it like that, then that's 207 208 1 his consistent way of checking it out. But if 1 MR. : Do you want to ask about the 2 this is all on that shift -. 2 3 MR. : But point being, you will 3 MR. : What about it? 4 agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on, 4 MR. : Who's reiiiiiiiii? 5 the counts were not conducted. Correct? 5 MR. : So, -. Oh, can 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. They weren't done 6 you just - sorry - would you min.", 7 right. 7 initialing and just dating? If was 8 MR. : The SHU counts? 8 actually removed from the SHU -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Okay. Then we don't need 10 MR. : -- and placed onto R, you 11 to really go into too much -- 11 know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 12 R&D are interchangeable. Correct? 13 MR. : -- detail with that. Is 13 MR. N'DIAYE: RA -- 14 this the first that you are seeing this? 14 MR. : Because RA for - RA, I 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I haven't seen that 15 believe, is what it shows in the count slip, 16 before. 16 but it stands for the R&D -- 17 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: That's the R&D -- 18 MR. : This was still on the counts? 18 MR. : -- right? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- area. I believe. Yeah. 20 MR. : Now, we're going to move 20 MR. : So, if he's actually 21 on because the warden agrees that there is not 21 moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August 22 really reason to really dig further, because he 22 9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for 23 agrees this clearly shows that the counts were 23 keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into 24 not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time 24 the RA, so that the count would be accurately 25 on. 25 reflected? EFTA00064362 209 210 1 MR. N'DIAYE: SHU would have notified 1 MR. : And it looks like he 2 control center, that we are moving one over to 2 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified 3 R&D. 3 control -- 4 MR. : And by that notification, 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 5 do they also say, can you please key him out, 5 MR. : -- that an inmate was being 6 and into? Or is that just automatically done 6 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 7 by control? 7 *02:31:20iiIIIIIIII 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the notification is 8 MR. : Well, no, no, no, no. I 9 made to control that inmate such and such is 9 wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 10 being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you 10 MR. Ed doesn't recall -- 11 key the inmate to that area. 11 MR. : I wouldn't -. 12 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: But then, while the counts 13 MR. ro, I'll ive ou a quick 13 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 14 background. It looks like 14 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 15 MR. : Who is that? 15 need to do a count slip because I have an 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 inmate down there. 17 MR. - witnessed this. 17 MR. : Is this where somebody 18 MR. : (Indiscernible 18 disappears, that we're looking for? 19 *02:31:02). 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Uh-huh. 20 MR. : Again, I told you, this 21 MR. : And he wrote up the shot. 21 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 22 say what does the warden, you know, and the 23 MR. : And he called the lieutenant. 23 boss of this place, what is his take on these 24 He requested the lieutenant. 24 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 25 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to 211 212 1 figure out why these things went wrong. So, 1 around. Evening shift, you can see what's 2 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we 2 going on. The midnight shift, they're 3 move on, that I got everything. All right? 3 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 4 So, first, before we get into rounds, when a 4 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 5 lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- 5 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 documentation. 7 MR. : -- are they required to 7 MR. : Now, as the warden, did 8 conduct a round of the inmates going up and 8 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 9 down the different tiers, or does the round 9 range when they were doing their lieutenant 10 consist of just checking in with the officers 10 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 11 to make sure everything is okay? 11 specifically when they are, like, signing off 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, you check the officer 12 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 13 to make sure they are all right, and you check 13 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 14 the documentation. So, you check, you know, 14 These are round sheets that -- 15 you edit, you would have to review the post 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 orders also. To state what their duties are. 16 MR. : -- you sent to Mr. 17 I mean, all of us had different, you know, I 17 where it shows the different 18 was a lieutenant, so it was different things 18 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 19 you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make 19 round. 20 sure, you know, the officers checked off, you 20 MR. N'DIAYE: But what does -- 21 know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. 21 MR. : So, what does that -? 22 I would check to see if medical came up. So, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- what the lieutenants are 23 it would factor and depend on what shift you 23 checking for is accuracy of the officer's 24 went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates 24 rounds. 25 are up, so you're going, you know, you can go 25 MR. Okay. This is -. EFTA00064363 213 214 1 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what they are checking 1 8/8. 2 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Wait. Did you print these 3 done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are 3 off the lo book or -? 4 not being done, you know, so, you know, then it 4 MR. : This is what you sent to 5 needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is 5 Mr. 6 what the issue was. But if they are signing 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 7 it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you 7 MR. : On Saturday, August 10th, 8 know, that the time that the round will put 8 at 6:21 p.m. 9 down, thaiiiiiiiiiie down. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Now, the only other thing I 10 MR. : Now, what would be -? 10 can think of, and when I had gathered 11 This is the round, it looks lie for 8/8. Can 11 something, I might have said, because the 12 you think of a reason why these wouldn't be 12 checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30- 13 done? But they would be signed off on right 13 minute checks so -- 14 here? 14 MR. IIIIIIIIII: This is also -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Let me see. So, if a 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, these are -- 16 lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was 16 MR. : -- this is the day, this 17 empty like this, then it is a problem. 17 is two days before Epstein was found. 18 MR. : Because you have this 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, this is -. No. I 19 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing 19 was thinking of the log. The log did it 20 that they were conducted, but this lieutenant 20 electronic. But this, no. This -- 21 signed it. 21 MR. : We have the electronic 22 MR. N'DIAYE: That's a problem. 22 version. 23 MR. : The same thing. We go, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. This is -- 24 this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks 24 MR. : Which one? 25 like they didn't even sign it until here. On 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, this is -. That 215 216 1 means -- 1 MR. For the same date. 2 MR. So, this is just wrong? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: So, this looks - hey, I 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. This is wrong. 3 don't know who it was - but this looks 4 MR. : Should have this 4 (Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it. 5 lieutenant signed that? MR. : Okay. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. He should have signed 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Let me see how those 30- 7 it. They should have put something -- 7 minute. That's the same one. I don't know who 8 MR. : Okay. 8 it was. Who it was. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- listed as some 9 MR. : Okay. So, that was 10 discrepant A the checks weren't done. 10 (Indiscernible 02:36:19). Certainly go look, 11 MR. : And on these, whereas it 11 but whomever it was during those shift. And 12 looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it 12 then, we get into, it looks like, 13 looks like probably because these are done. Do 13 (Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these. 14 you think that is the reason why this 14 Here is the 8/9. Where -- 15 individual hadn't signed these? Because these 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 weren't correct? 16 MR. : -- it's signed off, 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Probably. I can't speculate 17 signed off, until 2:00 p.m. 18 on that. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: That's a problem. 19 MR. Because it says -- 19 MR. : After that, no sign off. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't. 20 Same thing. 21 MR. : -- reviewed by morning 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 watch lieutenant. Where they do that, well, 22 MR. That's just when I think 23 that lieutenant does start signing it here, 23 left his shift, or somewhere around 24 where they are now filled out. 24 that time. So -. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 25 MR. : The point of this, if I may EFTA00064364 217 218 1 ask, is we got a miscount, right? 1 finished was counts - we have shown that the 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 staff members were not conducting their counts. 3 MR. • We're not -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 MR. This is -- 4 MR. : Right. Because that is why 5 MR. -- we've moved on from 5 you have 72 when it should be -- 6 counts. Now we're on rounds. 6 MR. • Now we are doing rounds. 7 MR. : Okay. Now, counts. The 7 MR. (Indiscernible *02:37:41). 8 significance of the counts is, at some point, 8 MR. : To find out were the 9 9 staff members conducting their rounds. 10 MR. disiiiiiiiill: No. The significance of 10 MR. : Got it. 11 the counts is that, if inmates - or if the 11 MR. : And again, we have, in 12 staff members aren't conducting counts and - 12 this case, a very high-profile inmate that was 13 counts are to the accountability of the 13 deceased. Became deceased at some point. 14 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 14 MR. : And they think -- 15 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : And -- 16 MR. • Rounds -- 16 MR. -- plus it's whether they -- 17 MR. Mm-hmm. 17 MR. • -- yeah, it -- 18 MR. -- are basically to make 18 MR. . -- noticed on their rounds 19 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 19 that the iiiiiiiiiiceased. 20 correct, sir? 20 MR. : -- if they were 21 MR. N'DIAYE: You are right. Counts are 21 conductin 22 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 22 MR. • Or -. 23 are basiciiiiiiiiiiy checks. 23 MR. -- rounds at all. And if 24 MR. : So, the point of these 24 they were conducting rounds, would that be - 25 questioning is, it looks like at - what we just 25 and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask 219 220 1 you now, since I'm making that explanation - if 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. And then, you kind 2 they were conducting their rounds, would that 2 of figure out the timing of the route. But the 3 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 3 fact remains, if you are not showing on the 4 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 4 form that you did your rounds, then that's a 5 know it's not going to prevent it in every 5 problem. 6 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 6 MR. : So, when you are looking 7 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 7 at these rounds that you sent Mr. , are 8 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 8 you finding problems because they are not 9 are breathing. 9 completed correctly? You know, what we just 10 MR. N'DIAYE: It is true, but I mean, and 10 looked through. In fact, you know, these are 11 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 11 August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09), 12 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 12 they're not signed off. There's blocks that 13 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 13 are not filled in. 14 to do it. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Looking at them now? 15 MR. : Right. And that goes 15 MR. : Right. 16 into play with why -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: What is the question? 17 MR. : They just -- 17 MR. : Well, does it show you 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to 19 MR. : -- they just look, they do 19 be filled out correctly? 20 rounds by looking in their cell. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 MR. : And that is for the 8th, 22 MR. : So, if you want to -- 22 as well? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: To check. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 MR. : -- do harm, you just wait 24 MR. Okay. So, that was -- 25 until they go passed your cell. 25 MR. : And that is something, it was EFTA00064365 221 222 1 your job to pass that on to 1 was also attached. What is that right there, 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. He requested -- 2 that we are looking at? 3 MR. No, no, no, no. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the information. 4 MR. : TruScope logs? 5 MR. This is just to show that 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. This looks like 6 6 TruScope. This looks like the log. And so, 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 7 like, if tl edoing what areas they search. 8 MR. : -- what the round sheets 8 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And these are searches? 9 that the warden sent to the regional director 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. These looks like 10 were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of, 10 searches. 11 hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It 11 MR. : Okay. 12 has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Let me see that. Search. 13 it right or not. It's, what his staff members 13 Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. 14 14 Recreation area. Yeah. These are -- 15 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. -- doing it right. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- these are search areas. 17 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Does it show anywhere in 18 MR. . And who was responsible 18 there that there was any cells that were 19 to make sure the round sheets are done 19 searched, or are they just all, like, common 20 correctly? 20 areas? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the staff working up 21 MR. N'DIAYE: No. They searched it. Look 22 there are responsible. And then, the 22 how -. What is this? Nine South. SHU. 23 supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are 23 Completed all. These are, these looks like 24 doing it. 24 everything they have done in there. The fire 25 MR. And what is this? This 25 and safety checks. This is - it looks like the 223 224 1 log. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you have to look at the 2 MR. Okay. So, this goes with 2 post orders - but they state, I think five a 3 you. 3 shift. A minimum of five. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Am-hmm. 4 MR. : It's five, I believe -- 5 MR. : So, all to this. This is 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 6 something else that we asked for the BOP to 6 MR. : -- for the night watch. 7 print out for us, and this one specifically one 7 The day watch, I believe, is more. And the 8 we asked. When you send us the cell searches 8 morning -- 9 that were conducted on 8/9/2019 -- 9 MR. Malhey're supposed to do five -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- watch is just 11 MR. : -- we got back one. By 11 (Indiscernible *02:41:59). 12 Mr. 12 MR. : -- cell searches? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No, no. Each shift is a 14 MR. : It say that it was 14 minimum of five. 15 conducted at 12:36 p.m. 15 MR. I don't think -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: And then -- 17 MR. : On 8/9/2019. 17 MR. -- that includes that 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 morning watch, though -- 19 MR. : Is that a problem? That 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the morning watch is -- 20 only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? 20 MR. -- because there's -- 21 According to, at least according to TruScope. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- area. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Because I believe the post 22 MR. -- right. 23 orders state it is supposed to be - and don't 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You are -- 24 quote me on it -- 24 MR. Common areas. 25 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- picking the common area. EFTA00064366 225 226 1 MR. : So, let me get this clear. 1 working that day, you're going to have to ask 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 2 them. I mean -- 3 MR. : You are supposed to do five 3 MR. : And we have. 4 cell shifts, five cell searches per shift? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- looking at -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. That is -. S MR. : And it was just -- 6 MR. : All right. And in this case, 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- looking on paper, I mean, 7 there is only an indication that they did one? 7 it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your 8 MR. N'DIAYE: One. Right? 8 searches. 9 MR. : One the whole day. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: One the day whole. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, now, there might 11 MR. : Not per shift. The whole 11 have been a reason where the person said, okay, 12 day. 12 the computers were down or whatever, but it is 13 MR. : Okay. Now, whose job is it -- 13 highly unlikely for -. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 14 MR. : So, but you are literally 15 MR. : -- to say why aren't you doing 15 going into a cell and search it? Does that 16 those? I was going to use the F word. Why 16 mean -- 17 aren't you doin all the cell shifts? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, yeah. 18 MR. : Well, this is, this is my 18 MR. : -- you throw over the 19 question to the warden is, is that a problem, 19 mattresses, the whole thing? 20 that there was only one logged into TruScope? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: No. You pull them out. You 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 21 look at -- 22 MR. : Does that indicate that 22 MR. : Okay. 23 the cells were not being searched, to you? Or 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- look and check the 24 that they just weren't logging them in? 24 lockers. You check under their stuff. You 25 MR. N'DIAYE: And again, whoever was 25 know, and you typically do it, like on certain 227 228 1 days when the guys are going out to take a 1 I just can't see them. 2 shower, you mi ht o out and do that. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 3 MR. : So, with your suggestion 3 This is a search one. This is the log. 4 that computers could be down and things like 4 MR. Okay. So, problematic, 5 that, as you can see from the email attachment 5 in your opinion? 6 that you said, there are certainly plenty of 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. It is. 7 searches that were entered in there -- 7 MR. : All right. So, not only 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 8 searching them, but is it equally as important 9 MR. : -- but there is only one 9 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 10 cell search. 10 whether things are being searched? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. You should log it. 12 MR. : And so, I would assume, 12 MR. : All right. Now, this, 13 would that indicate that the computers are 13 this comes to the kind of question on this. 14 actually up and running? 14 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. So, this one, this is 15 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 16 the same 16 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 17 MR. : What are you looking -- 17 database said, where he should have been? He 18 MR. N'DIAYE: That could be (Indiscernible 18 was in the wrong cell. 19 *02:43:422,________ 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I did hear, afterwards, that 20 MR. 1111111111: -- yeah, this should be 20 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 21 8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10. 21 they keyed into the cells. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: 8/9 -- 22 MR. : All right. And what did 23 MR. : I would think. 23 you hear? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: reg number. Reg number. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: I think, just that the cell, 25 MR. It shows the dates here. 25 the way the inmates were being keyed in was EFTA00064367 229 230 1 off, it didn't match this cell. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: And then -. 2 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : So, who should have made 3 MR. N'DIAYE: That. 3 sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database, 4 MR. : So, yeah, his assigned 4 matched where he was physically located? 5 cell within the BOP database was not where he 5 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 6 was located -- 6 information that he wasn't in his assigned 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 8 MR. : -- in person. At least 8 people not trusting the government. So, we are 9 when he was found on August 10th, 2019. 9 just trying to figure out -. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, and this is not a 11 MR. : Now, is that something that is 11 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 12 - I should sh right? 12 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 13 MR. : No, no. I'm good. 13 far as specific keying in cells. I don't think 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Go ahead. 14 this was done in a malicious -. 15 MR. : Now, is that something that 15 MR. : So, what happened here, 16 goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility 16 our investigation shows is that when he came 17 to see where guys are being celled? 17 back from -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. But I mean -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 19 MR. : Yeah. Most of my 19 MR. : -- from suicide, or 20 questions to him isn't that -- 20 psychological observation, he was placed into 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 22 MR. : -- it's his 22 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 23 responsibility, it's whose responsibility was 23 (Phonetic S . *02:46:24)? 24 it? 24 MR. : CPAP. 25 MR. : Okay. Got it. 25 MR. : His CPAP machine, the 231 232 1 cord didn't reach the plug. 1 CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : What is a CPAP machine? 3 MR. : So, they had to move him 3 MR. : It's the snore -. It's 4 to a different cell. 4 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : So, from July 30th to 6 MR. : And he needed a CPAP machine? 7 August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned 7 MR. : Yes, sir. 8 cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, 8 MR. N'DIAYE: For the snoring. 9 you know, and my thought being is, well, if 9 MR. : So -- 10 they are doing their cell searches -- 10 MR. : Don't call me sir. Please. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, I thought you meant -- 11 I'm old. S lk?i You're reminding me. 12 MR. : -- wouldn't -. 12 MR. : And so, no one ever went 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the cell didn't match up 13 back into the system from, all the way from the 14 with -- 14 30th up to August 10th, and made that 15 MR. No, no, they -- 15 correction. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- (Indiscernible 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 *02:46:52). 17 MR. Who was responsible for 18 MR. -- they logged him into 18 that? 19 the cell that he was placed in, coming out of 19 MR. N'DIAYE: So, whoever made the cell 20 psychological observation. 20 change should have contacted control center. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 MR. : And is the control center 22 MR. : On the 30th. Then, they 22 that actually made the change, not the 23 physically moved him to a different cell. 23 individuals in SHU, or the SHU lieutenant? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. The -- 25 MR. On the 30th. Because his 25 MR. Because my understanding EFTA00064368 233 234 1 it would have been the SHU lieutenant or the 1 MR. Okay. 2 OIC. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: So, a call should have been 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Bed changes? 3 made down to control, saying, hey, this is 4 MR. To verify their cellmates 4 where he's.ii keyed to, and this is what -. 5 where were the -. Wherever the BOP databases 5 MR. : And who should have made 6 said they are. 6 that call? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So, you have to, you would 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever made the change. 8 have to call control center to make that 8 Whoever switched him. 9 change. 9 MR. : And my understanding is 10 MR. : Okay. So, who should 10 that the OIC and the SHU lieutenant were 11 have called the control center? 11 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Whoever made the change in 12 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 13 Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me 13 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 14 if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You do a, what we 15 staff have control over keying where an inmate 15 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 16 is in. 16 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 17 MR. : Yeah. No. I thought the 17 you have a board up there, and you just match 18 OIC might, or the that the SHU -- 18 where ever one is at. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No, because -- 19 MR. : And how often should that 20 MR. : -- lieutenant would. 20 happen? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- in that case, beds would 21 MR. N'DIAYE: There is no set policy, but 22 be really messed u . 22 as a good practice, you know, you kind of want 23 MR. : Right, right, right. 23 to check what your open cells are, where, you 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So, the control center is a 24 know, where individuals are. And should it 25 centralized area. 25 also be checked if they were doing cell 235 236 1 searches? Would that be caught, if they were 1 call down to control center. 2 doing searches? 2 MR. . And if that didn't -. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, if you are doing a 3 MR. : Can I speak to my client for a 4 cell search, all you are going to do is put 4 second? 5 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 6 It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be 6 MR. Sure. 7 able to find out if it is the correct room. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. Okay. 8 MR. Do you want me 9 MR. N'DIAYE: And the correct bed in 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 Sentry. 10 MR. -- do you want me to push 11 MR. All right. 11 pause? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: But, you know -. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 13 MR. So, in this instance, 13 MR. : Yeah, no. I'll take him to 14 then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let 14 the other 15 you answer who -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : I have the same problem. 16 MR. Sure. Okay. It's 4:46 17 MR. : -- who is it that should 17 iiiiiiiiiithis is Senior Special Agent 18 have notified control center to make this 18 , and I'm pushing pause. 19 change? It sounds like you said whoever 19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 20 physically moved him, at the time? 20 off the record and back on the record). 21 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what happens is, whoever 21 MR. : The recorder is back on. 22 physically moved him should have said, okay, 22 It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I 23 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 23 remind you, sir, you are still under oath. 24 we are moving him. And then, you let the - 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will 25 MR. All right. So, we EFTA00064369 237 238 1 stopped with the, we were talking about who was 1 something that we should probably -. 2 responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was 2 MR. : Well, and my question is, does 3 logged into the correct cell within the -- 3 that have any effect on count? I mean, they 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Question. 4 still should be able to look in the cells if 5 MR. : BOP database system. 5 there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Were there other cells that 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, when -- 7 were wron ? 7 MR. : Well, the problem comes 8 MR. : Do you know that, 7 8 in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, 9 MR. : Not -. We don't know if -. 9 now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, 10 This, we know only because we checked this. 10 and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just, 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So, I mean, 11 you know -- 12 everything else could have been right, and that 12 MR. : But I'm saying -- 13 could have been a -- 13 MR. -- the media says all of 14 MR. : No. Well, we found out, 14 these thin that went wrong. 15 this is the reason was because, again, he was 15 MR. • -- yeah. 16 placed into that cell, and then moved because 16 MR. • One being -- 17 of the CPAP machine. 17 MR. I've had that. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I was -- 18 MR. . -- wait, he's not even in 19 MR. : Well, our question was -- 19 the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, wondering if it 20 who was res 21 is a systematic, or an individual problem. 21 MR. IIIII: Okay. Now, so, my question 22 MR. : Correct. 22 is, does it make any difference? I mean, if 23 MR. N'DIAYE: That's why I was just 23 they are supposed to do the count, the count is 24 curious. 24 you look in the cell, and see -- 25 MR. Yeah. And that's 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 239 240 1 MR. : -- whether there's a guy in 1 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong 2 there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's 2 number of risoners. 3 not in, he's still in his cell. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. . No. Correct. 4 MR. That's a lot of mistakes. 5 MR. You know? 5 MR. : Right. And we haven't 6 MR. But because we are doing 6 even gotten involved. 7 this deep dive review -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Okay. I gotcha. 8 MR. As I'm sure you know. 9 MR. -- it's showing these 9 But -- 10 different ou know -- 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Got it. Okay. 11 MR. -- so, after the person 12 MR. -- and again, this is, 12 who moved him didn't contact and have this 13 this is one of those things -- 13 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 14 MR. : You're just being extra 14 then, how would have anyone found out that he 15 careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible 15 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 16 *02:52:14). 16 place to ensure that where they are matches up 17 MR. : -- and not like 17 with the actual database? 18 (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I guess if they were 19 to, we have to address the fact that -- 19 doing -- 20 MR. : He wasn't in the right cell. 20 MR. : You said bed book counts? 21 MR. : -- Mr. Epstein wasn't in 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. Usually, you could 22 the cell that he was assigned to. 22 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 23 MR. : Okay. I mean, it's not just 23 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 24 that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that 24 they are supposed to be. When you are updating 25 he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, 25 your accountability board, you would look and EFTA00064370 241 242 1 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 And then, match it up with, you know, with 2 MR. : Okay. And then, somebody 3 Sentry. 3 would have dropped the ball as to either, 4 MR. : And who would be doing 4 dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't 5 those things? 5 find out that he wasn't on the count. They had 6 MR. N'DIAYE: The staff working up there 6 said we did a count, but they didn't notice 7 in SHU. 7 that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you 8 MR. : Is the lieutenant, the 8 know what I mean? 9 SHU lieutenant, at all involved, as far as you 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 know, in making sure that this is all accurate? 10 MR. : Okay. That starts to be a 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, he was spearheading it 11 problem. 12 to make sure everything was -- 12 MR. : So, just pointed 13 MR. : He was the supervisor. 13 out to me. On the after-action review -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was right. Yeah. He was 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 15 the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, 15 MR. : -- they did review this. 16 let's, did this happen? Have we done this? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 And have we done that? 17 MR. : And it says that, 18 MR. : Okay. 18 according to their review -- 19 MR. : And -. Okay. Just to make me 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 20 MR. : -- this is not my review. 21 or not he should have a, he had a roommate. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 22 MR. : Or review. 23 MR. : Okay. And somebody dropped 23 "Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry 24 the ball as to whether he was in the right 24 regarding cell quarters assignments." QRT. 25 cell. 25 QTR. "Although it is well documented, inmate 243 244 1 Epstein was housed with two other inmates 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He did it right there 2 during his assignment in SHU. Sentry does not 2 3 reflect this information accurately. Inmate 3 MR. -- the inmates are in 4 Epstein was found within cell 220, that Sentry 4 their assigned -? 5 never reflects him being housed within that 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and then, whoever is 6 cell at any time." But to answer your 6 moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you 7 question, the first sentence says that there is 7 make the notification. 8 significant -- 8 MR. : And is it surprising to 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 9 you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't 10 MR. : -- discrepancies. 10 caught? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: At two weeks later from 12 MR. : The way that I read that 12 where? 13 is, overall, whether they are referring to 13 MR. From -. He was placed 14 specifically Epstein -- 14 into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Epstein. 15 August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was 16 MR. : -- that, I am not able to 16 never caught that he was not -- 17 determine -- 17 MR. N'DIAYE: In the right cell. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 MR. -- locked in the right 19 MR. : -- based upon that 19 cell. 20 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 21 the had some discrepancies. So, Lieutenant 21 MR. : Is that a significant 22 would have supervised it, but it's really 22 amount of time that went by without catching 23 the staff that would be responsible for doing 23 that? 24 these bed book counts, and making sure 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Without catching it. It is. 25 assignments are -- 25 MR. Now, is that, you know, EFTA00064371 245 246 1 all staff that was in there, or is it, like, 1 those, when you do it. And they are usually 2 really -? 2 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 3 MR. N'DIAYE: And again, and you probably 3 things are going on in that department of 4 have to speak to the captain who was 4 correctional services, we have what we call 5 responsible for doing the checks, and doing the 5 perpetual audits, which he maintained the 6 count. 6 records of, and that is another checks and 7 MR. : So, would the captain 7 balance where you would find out if something 8 have some responsibility on this, too? 8 is wrong. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, did the captain is in 9 MR. And how often are those 10 charge of correctional services. So, that is 10 done? 11 the unit he is over. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Those are done quarterly. 12 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. Quarterly? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: So, he has overall 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 14 responsibility to make sure, you know, in 14 MR. All right. So, the fact 15 conjunction with the lieutenant, that the unit 15 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 16 is runniniiiiiiiiiiit is supposed to run. 16 or 11 days, there is a good chance that they 17 MR. : And what should have the 17 weren't done during that time period? Or do 18 captain done in order to make sure that that 18 you know when they would be done? Are they 19 was accurate? 19 done, like, on a certain date? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, now, there is 20 MR. N'DIAYE: What, the quarterly? 21 different ways of finding out if stuff is 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit 22 MR. N'DIAYE: It's - and I don't know when 23 system. Where they are responsible - the 23 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 24 lieutenants - are responsible to conduct 24 to your checks and balance. You know -- 25 perpetual audits. So, you can find out through 25 MR. Right. 247 248 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you do your perpetual 1 the OIC. You know, everybody has different 2 audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh, 2 duties, and -- 3 wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And 3 MR. : So, it is not like -- 4 then, you come up with the corrective action to 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- different ways that work. 5 fix it. 5 MR. : -- not like morning watch 6 MR. : So, that's how the 6 does this, or it's just based upon what passed 7 captain could have determined, I guess -- 7 down from lieutenant to the OIC -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Like, what -- 9 MR. : -- but how, in those -- 9 MR. : -- to whoever. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: The captain would find out. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, but basically, when 11 MR. : -- ten or 11 days, how 11 you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't 12 would have that been caught? 12 see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Again, you would have to see 13 accountability check like that, because the 14 your inmate accountability board. 14 guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 looking for a living, breathing body, but you 16 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, are you matching 16 can't phyiiiiiiiiiie them. 17 Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 matching it with what is on the board. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, so, what shift was 19 MR. : But - and I apologize 19 picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure 20 that I'm beating -- 20 our cell, the accountability in the cell. So, 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 I can't -- 22 MR. : -- a dead horse here, 22 MR. You can't really answer 23 but, like, who does that? 23 the question. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Again, I don't know who, you 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I can't really speak -. 25 know, who the lieutenant assigned it to, who 25 MR. Sure. That's fine. EFTA00064372 249 250 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? 2 MR. : All right. Let's get 2 MR. : Okay. 3 this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind, 3 MR. : And then, we touched on 4 this -- 4 this before, but this is an email that the 5 MR. : Am I right that we are getting 5 captain sent to you. 6 close to the bottom of the pile? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 7 MR. We are. We are getting 7 MR. : Regarding the lieutenant 8 close. 8 rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent 9 MR. : Because Jesus Christ, I can't 9 this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, 10 take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). 10 "Warden, here are the lieutenant rounds for 8/9 11 MR. : We are -. (Indiscernible 11 to 8/10. Below are the workstations logged on 12 *02:58:31 with this. 12 to complete rounds." 13 MR. IIIII: Yeah. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : But again, for you, a 15 MR. : So, this is the email 15 lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever 16 with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. 16 came to that conclusion, or that we may have 17 And these were separate. 17 got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round 18 MR. : Now, let me ask the question 18 is used primarily to check in, and it's not 19 (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. 19 necessarily to go down the different ranges? 20 Your job is the prison. It's your job to look 20 MR. N'DIAYE: On the midnight shift. So, 21 down into the prison, as far as these counts 21 they typically not, you know, unless they have 22 and, you know, accountability boards, and so 22 an issue, but like you said, you as a 23 forth. 23 lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, that is what 24 see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the 25 you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. 25 other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see 251 252 1 what's goin on. 1 (Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there, 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 making rounds, checking the books, to see if 3 MR. : All right. So, should 3 you got a problem on the range. You would call 4 they, though, be walking down the ranges on 4 that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just 5 both the morning, or the day watch and the 5 walk the iiiiiiiiiiust to see what is going on. 6 night watch? Evening watch. 6 MR. : Because most lieutenants 7 MR. N'DIAYE: This is what I will say. 7 that we talked to -- 8 You probably got to look at the post orders and 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 see -- 9 MR. : -- said that they were 10 MR. Yeah. The post orders -- 10 absolutely required to do -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the post orders. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 MR. -- aren't clear with 12 MR. -- a round, just like a 13 that. 13 SHU staff member -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 MR. We haven't -- 15 MR. -- was to do a round. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: So, it's not -. 16 Some lieutenants -- 17 MR. -- we haven't been able 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 to -- 18 MR. : -- specifically, 19 MR. N'DIAYE: It's not -- 19 lieutenants that worked that day -- 20 MR. -- specifically 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 determine. 21 MR. : -- said, nope, there's no 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's what I mean, it's 22 requirement to do that. 23 not a re.uiriiiii, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: But -- 24 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. So, that's where I'm, as 25 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, for the 25 the warden -- EFTA00064373 253 254 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Well -- 1 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure 2 MR. : -- who is right? 2 you are doing this. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. The expectation is, 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 4 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 4 MR. : So, there is no -- 5 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 6 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 6 MR. : -- so, if someone wasn't 7 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 7 doing it, it's not like something they would be 8 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 8 disciplined for? 9 we are talking about the post orders, were they 9 MR. N'DIAYE: See, that's hard. I mean, 10 required to? The post, you know, the post 10 to say you would discipline. There is a 11 orders, I don't believe had the requirement 11 difference between what is written down, and 12 that they have to, you know -- 12 what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are 13 MR. : Okay. 13 coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- physically go in the 14 want to see what's going around the unit. I 15 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 15 might ask the officer, all right, do we have 16 MR. : So, does that - if I 16 any problems. The inmates, when you come on, 17 understand you correctly - the expectation was 17 hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, 18 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 18 lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are 19 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 19 going down the ranges. You know, so, when you 20 so? 20 are going down the range, you are seeing 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You should be walking 21 something. You get to another range. The 22 around. 22 inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, 23 MR. All right. 23 it is something you should be doing as part of 24 MR. N'DIAYE: To see if everything -. 24 your rounds, and going up into SHU. lust 25 MR. But it's not like you 25 walking around, to make sure everything is -. 255 256 1 MR. But if you were still the 1 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the 2 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 2 word "sound correctional judgement"? You know, 3 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 3 just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. 4 doing rounds -- 4 I mean, you have some people that go above and 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 6 MR. : -- and you found out that 6 some people that want to do the bear minimum. 7 they were only checking in with the staff 7 But that is something -- 8 members, and they were not actually walking 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 down the ranges, is that something that you 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- from a rounds point of 10 would find problematic? 10 view, I would say you need to make those 11 MR. N'DIAYE: I would correct it. 11 rounds. 12 MR. : And when you say correct 12 MR. : Okay. Let me ask you a 13 it, what do you mean by that? 13 question. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I would tell, you know, get 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 15 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 15 MR. : You do the rounds. Does that 16 they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, 16 mean literally walk up and down this, what we, 17 they need to walk the ranges. 17 what I would call the cell block? 18 MR. : So, they should be 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You walk around the 19 walking the ranges, then? 19 unit. You know, you are interacting with 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Off of the post orders, it's 20 inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same 21 not in thiiiiiiiiiinow -- 21 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 22 MR. : I know. I -- 22 are walkiiiar d. Hey, what's going on? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- any place saying that you 23 MR. : So, what you are not 24 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like 24 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. 25 any unit you walk on, you want to see what is 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. EFTA00064374 257 258 1 MR. There is different 1 it. Some have it right there, the log, you 2 levels, and there is different -- 2 know, take the logbook and they just sign it. 3 MR. : Yeah, I've been to the SHU. 3 So -. 4 MR. -- hallways. 4 MR. : So, the individuals, the 5 MR. : Know what I remember about the 5 ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that 6 SHU, it's fucking cold. 6 we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 7 August 10th -- 8 MR. : Yeah. So, like, if you 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 are just, you can simply go in and go to the 9 MR. : -- a majority of them 10 officer's station, and check in with the staff 10 said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all I 11 and say -- 11 needed to do was go to that officer's station, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 check in with my officers, make sure their 13 MR. : -- everything good? You 13 paperwork is done, and then I left. Every 14 got all your paperwork in order? All your 14 other lieutenant that we talked to said, no. 15 paperwork is actually right here on the desk. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 Did you find it problematic that they are 16 MR. : When you sign that paper, 17 keeping all of their round sheets on the desk 17 you are signing it just like you conducted a 18 versus on the ranges themselves? 18 round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Different places do it 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 differentliiiiiiiii 20 MR. : You had to go down every 21 MR. : Okay. 21 range -- 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Some -- 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 MR. : So -. 23 MR. : -- make sure everything 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- some places have it, they 24 was good to go. You are not just checking on. 25 keep it at the end of the range, and you sign 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 259 260 1 MR. So, what we are trying to 1 around? 2 say is, which one is right? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, now, for the ones that 3 MR. : Okay. 4 are saying that I don't have to go down and 4 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 5 check every range, they are going off the post 5 MR. : So, no one technically 6 office. 6 did anything wrong. They should just really do 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 it? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: The ones that are doing 8 MR. N'DIAYE: They should. They should 9 their job, they are going around and checking 9 just do it. 10 every time. 10 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 11 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. rhe term used was "sound 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Making sure the wellbeing of 12 correctional judgment. 13 the inmates, and you are checking on the 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 14 wellbeing of 14 MR. : All ri ht. So, that 15 MR. : All right. So, it kind 15 again - was that email from to you, with 16 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 16 the lieutenant rounds. 17 wrong? They need to change the post orders? 17 MR. : Damn. That pile is a lot 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, they would, they would 18 lower. 19 have - should put in -- 19 MR. : Unless you want to go right 20 MR. : Yeah. 20 back on it. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- their post orders, but 21 MR. • Now, this says -- 22 they should be going around, and -- 22 MR. • Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 23 MR. : So, they should have a rule -- 23 I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the wellness check. 24 pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to 25 MR. : -- that says, you got to go 25 give you some of that money back, but I can't EFTA00064375 261 262 1 take this shit no more. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 2 MR. So, this one says it's 2 MR. : So, that is not in SHU? 3 from 3 Or is it? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Huh? No. That's not in 5 MR. : To you. SHU. Thaiiiiiiiiiiarate unit all together. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : So, why was this 7 MR. : Who is 7 provided? For any reason? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: He aws a unit manager there 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Because I like to -. I used 9 for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23). 9 to like to track who was making their rounds 10 MR. : Okay. At the MCC? 10 and not makin their rounds. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 11 MR. : All right. 12 MR. : It says, subject, "Weekly 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So, they had to send it to 13 rounds -- 13 me every week. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : So, was this just 15 MR. : -- as requested." 15 coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. This had nothing to 17 MR. : So, these are weekly 17 do with him. 18 rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 for? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: This was probably what he 20 MR. N'DIAYE: That was for our Wood sec 20 had to seiiiiiiiiii week. 21 unit (Phon2IifiL_*03:06:34). 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Oh, okay. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: It was the end of the week. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, you actually had your 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that's what he sent. 25 own separate wood sec unit? 25 So, that had nothing to do with him. 263 264 1 MR. So, this has nothing to 1 MR. Now, is there some kind 2 do with Epstein. 2 of a requirement that you conduct rounds? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. The warden is 4 MR. All right. I'm not even 4 supposed to o u and go -. 5 going to -- 5 MR. : So, you are supposed to 6 MR. : Yeah. 6 conduct rounds in the SHU? 7 MR. • -- you can keep that over 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. About once -- 8 here, so we don't get that confused. 8 MR. : Or is this -- 9 MR...(eah. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- a week. Like, you can go 10 MR. : All right. So, this one. 10 up as many times, but, you know, the warden is 11 As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr. 11 supposed to be oing. 12 It says SHU rounds. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : Now, that means you are 14 MR. : What SHU rounds are we 14 supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? 15 looking at here? This is a new document here. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I go in the SHU. I 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. This is on This 16 walk around and do rounds in every area of the 17 is eight, for the -- 17 institution. So. 18 MR. : This is for executive 18 MR. : And is everyone on here 19 staff -- 19 supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the week starting at 20 never seen this round sheet until reviewing 21 eight -- 21 your emails. 22 MR. or-? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. This is every Bureau 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- this is starting for 8/4 23 institution has this. This is where you sign 24 rounds. So, this is, these are my rounds that 24 into the Special Housing Unit. This is the 25 I'm doing. 25 log. And this is showing that they made their EFTA00064376 265 266 1 rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right 1 MR. : So, the fact that AW 2 here, showing that they made their rounds. So, 2 operations has nothing in there, is that 3 at the end of the week, when they send me the 3 problematic? 4 round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, 4 MR. N'DIAYE: And here is the other thing 5 my question would be, okay, did they make 5 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 6 rounds, or did the forget to make rounds? 6 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial 7 MR. : Is this and this the same 7 and sign it. 8 thing? 8 MR. : All right. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: For the lieutenants, it 9 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what I would do is, I 10 would be. 10 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 11 MR. : Just the lieutenants? 11 the end of the week, what happened? How come 12 And no one else? 12 you didn't make rounds? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. No one else. This is 13 MR. : So, all of these blank 14 computer services. The duty officer has to go 14 spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 15 up there. 15 rounds in SHU? 16 MR. : Now, so -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Not everybody is required. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right there. 17 They should have been up there, but they are 18 MR. : -- this shows that you 18 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 19 did two rounds. 19 MR. : The correctional judgement -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- food services. 21 MR. : And you are only required 21 MR. : -- would be they could go up 22 to do one. Correct? 22 to that. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: But health services has to 24 MR. : AW programs. 24 make rounds. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That, she did it on Friday. 25 MR. • : You're getting it. 267 268 1 MR. N'DIAYE: The PA's. 1 MR. -- is that what you do? 2 MR. : By the end of the day, man, 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- what I do is, I walk 3 I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated 3 around and I go to every cell, and I talk to 4 going to prison. 4 the guy, got any issues, any problems? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Psychology. You know? 5 They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have 6 MR. : So, which ones on here 6 some that say, hey, I'm up here for an 7 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 7 investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up 8 MR. N'DIAYE: You have the unit team 8 here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. 9 that's suiiiiiiiiiigo up. The lieutenants. 9 Fine. Some of it I can address right there, 10 MR. : Well, SIS, it doesn't 10 some of it I can't. But I would typically walk 11 appear that they did any rounds. 11 around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: That's -. 12 that is the reason why you are up there. Why 13 MR. : But I'm assuming they 13 am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, 14 certainly should have. Correct? 14 you go by_iLit says -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: SIS should have been up 15 MR. IIIII: It's because you are a fucking 16 there, to go around. So, and again, I would 16 mass murderer, that's why you're up here. 17 look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and, like, you know why 18 might have been on leave, not on leave. 18 you are locked up. And then, they would say, 19 MR. : And what are - so, when 19 well, how come the investigation is taking so 20 these type of individuals, it looks like more 20 long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, 21 high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are 21 if it was an OIG investigation. It would 22 the highest level, what is a warden round look 22 depend. So, you know, I would usually tell 23 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, 23 them, like, you know, it's an outside agency 24 or -- 24 handling. We are in contact with them. And 25 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what I -- 25 somebody will come see. EFTA00064377 269 270 1 MR. Okay. 1 the staff, but it's -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Some could be up for 2 MR. : It's a surprise. In other 3 administrative an incident report. 3 words, you are not telling them you are coming, 4 MR. So, you went through and 4 you are just going. 5 talked to everybody, but were you required to 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm 6 do that, or is it just because you just were a 6 making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to 7 good employee? 7 staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more 8 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, that's what you 8 the issue of work. I mean -. 9 should 9 MR. : So, when you say there's 10 MR. : That's what you should 10 nothing in writing, saying that you should do 11 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 11 it, or is there something in writing saying 12 well, the post orders don't say that. 12 these people that didn't do it, that they 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I don't have post 13 should have done it? 14 orders. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No. And there could be 15 MR. : Right. 15 reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. So, I mean -- 16 get the report and look into - like, there are 17 MR. : But you are -. But 17 people that make the rounds, they come up to 18 something does say that you are required to do 18 SHU but the for et to sign in. 19 it once a week? 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: There's nothing in writing 20 MR. N'DIAYE: So, when I get the report, I 21 to tell me you have to do it. But just like I 21 would, you know, talk to the captain, that this 22 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area 22 the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such 23 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 23 and such make a round? Now, that AW might have 24 every employee going there on the off shifts. 24 been out that week, and I had this one covering 25 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see 25 both. So, they came up with the AW. 271 272 1 MR. Now, is there any way to 1 MR. So, it wouldn't -- 2 determine, like, these people that, for 2 MR. N'DIAYE: So -. 3 instance, visited on Friday, what time the 3 MR. : -- it wouldn't caused a 4 visited? Because this is the day that 4 red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like, 5 was gone. So, it says the captain was in there 5 Epstein's cell empty? 6 on Friday. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, if empty cell is 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down 8 MR. : Should have he noticed 8 on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made 9 that wasn't there? 9 during the da time. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Not necessarily. If he 10 MR. : And in that note, would 11 didn't go down range. And he could have come 11 thgy_say, though, because it says 12 up, and remember, we have Ten South that's 12 IIIII, and it looks like was there, too -- 13 connected. So, I don't know if he came up 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 there, yoki_Enarl_fgr an issue for Ten South. 14 MR. : -- should have those two 15 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Mm-hmm. 15 people, if they actually did a roundlis 16 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't know. And then, 16 Epstein is down there, but where is IIIII? 17 him making his rounds, even if he's making his 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, they could have. I 18 rounds, you are going to have empty cells on 18 mean, but could have been in the shower. 19 the range. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Oh, you will? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? I mean -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Well, somebody -- 21 MR. : But it wouldn't be 22 MR. : Even if - 22 something that would be normally asked? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- somebody could be at 23 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 24 medical. Somebody could be on an attorney 24 MR. : It was, like, oh -- 25 visit. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm-mm. EFTA00064378 273 274 1 MR. : -- Epstein, high-profile 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be - 2 MR. : -- to get you to say 3 ? 3 that. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean -- 4 MR. : How many days a week can you 5 MR. : No. take a shower when you're in -? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you're just saying, okay, 6 MR. N'DIAYE: The entire of three times. 7 Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe 7 Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and 8 his cellmate was in attorney visit, it could 8 Friday. 9 have been on a shower day. He could have been 9 MR. : And what about this one? 10 in rec. 10 This one is from IIII to you. Weekly 11 MR. : Okay. 11 rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this -- 12 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean -. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: The PCU. 13 MR. : So, you are more 13 MR. : -- is this -? So, this 14 concerned about the people that are there, as 14 is the same thing? 15 opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like 15 MR. N'DIAYE: That's the PCU unit. Wood 16 that? To check in with them. 16 sec unit. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: That, I mean, you want to 17 MR. : The wood sec unit. 18 see, making sure you are around, making rounds, 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 talking to everyone. So, I don't know what, 19 MR. : All right. So, this 20 you know, what the thought process is, or, you 20 might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this 21 know, if EITI2aly_tas in the shower or not. 21 is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). 22 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Mm-hmm. 22 Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you 23 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 23 mind just initialing and dating that? 24 MR. : Sure. No. And I'm not 24 MR. : Now, we are getting close to 25 trying -- 25 the end. 275 276 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm. 1 MR N'DIAYE: But they already knew that. 2 MR. , you had two 2 MR If the word of mouth -. 3 follow up questions before we move on. Why 3 MR So, the claim is -- 4 don't you ask those? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : If the counts and the rounds 5 MR. miiiiiiiihat 6 were done -- 6 stuff in the memo. And says 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 never told me that. 8 MR. : -- as they were supposed to 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU 9 MR. : That they say that's 10 C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that 10 bullshit, and he's lying. 11 Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate was 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 actually not where he was supposed to be? In 12 MR. : The people that he said 13 terms of that, if he was assigned, iffptein 13 were present say the same thing. 14 was required to have a cellmate, and IIIII was 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 transferred, would they have caught onto the 15 MR. : He didn't say that. 16 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't understand what -. 17 MR. : So, point being is, well, 18 MR. : Let's say was 18 if didn't pass that information on, if 19 transferred, right? 19 they were actually conducting their rounds, 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 should they have noticed that he wasn't there? 21 MR. : If the counts and the rounds 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. If they knew that he 22 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 22 didn't -. If they knew, they knew that - 23 count, the rounds in between, if they were 23 what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to 24 done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the 24 have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on 25 fact that was missing from the cell? 25 there, that I guess, and on the outside of the EFTA00064379 277 278 1 cell, they would have his name and the other 1 lieutenant or the captain? 2 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where 2 MR. N'DIAYE: On the shift, it is the 3 is the cellmate? We know he's not in the 3 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 4 attorney room. 4 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 5 MR. : Okay. 5 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 6 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 7 MR. : I got it. 7 then you find out people didn't make their 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So, you know he's down in 8 rounds. 9 the attorney room. So, you would have said, 9 MR. : And I think what 10 okay, som±olly's got to be in that cell. 10 question to you was, does this suggest to you 11 MR. IIIII: Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a 11 that they were not actuiiiiiconducting their 12 way to fuck with the other guys. 12 rounds? The fact that was gone for 24 13 MR. : Meaning, if they actually did 13 hours, and the notifications weren't made? 14 the rounds and the counts like they were 14 MR. N'DIAYE: It would appear that that is 15 supposed to, there was more than enough time 15 the appearance. 16 for them to turn around and assign another 16 MR. : (Indiscernible *03:18:07). 17 cellmate, if needed. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I mean. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Or to say, of course, to 18 MR. : I just have one other 19 your point, where they are saying that nobody 19 question. 20 ever told them, if you were making your rounds, 20 MR. : When I do cross examinations, 21 you would have saw that there was nobody in 21 and it says, it would appear that, yeah, 22 that cell, and then ask you a question, where 22 that's, yeah _2omebody found. 23 he's at. 23 MR. IIIIII: Have you ever heard of C.O.s 24 MR. : And the person whose job it is 24 pre-fillip 25 to make sure they are doing their rounds is the 25 MR. : When he says pre-filling, 279 280 1 what he is saying is that, the beginning of 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 2 their shift, they are going in and they are 2 MR. : -- what is your response 3 just writing, they are initialing and putting 3 to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that? 4 in the time. At the very beginning, for the 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, that is a referral. I 5 rest of their shift. 5 would have to do a referral for you guys to 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, let me put it to you 6 look into it. 7 this way. If I -- 7 MR. : And then, if they are 8 MR. : I saw you smile -- 8 actually pre-filling those out, does that also 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, no. 9 suggest to you that they didn't do their counts 10 MR. : -- when he asked that. 10 or their rounds? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Because if I become aware 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I mean, if they're 12 and know that somebody is doing something like 12 telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's 13 that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going 13 obvious that they did not, they are not 14 to report that. So, if somebody came to me and 14 counting. 15 said, well, this person is pre-filling out 15 MR. : Right. 16 count slips, that would be something that I 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Because if somebody is pre- 17 would say, okay, you know, I have to do a 17 filling out a sheet, that means -- 18 referral, or if I don't have enough evidence 18 MR. : They're not counting. 19 for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they have no intention of 20 put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count 20 counting. 21 slips. 21 MR. : And does that indicate to 22 MR. : So, if we have people 22 you, as the warden, that they are falsely 23 confessing, admitting that they are not only 23 certifying rounds and counts that they did not 24 pre-filling out their count slips, but also 24 conduct? 25 doing it with their round sheets -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: If they come to you, and EFTA00064380 281 282 1 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't 1 MR. And that is why I asked 2 done our count slip, that is an admission of 2 you specifically -- 3 misconduct. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 MR. : Right. But a false 4 MR. : -- with Tova Noel. Are 5 certification, as well. Correct? 5 you confident that you gave her that spiel? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. That is falsifying the 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Talk to whoever was in her 7 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 7 class, and you talk to any, any new class that 8 to you. But as far as -- 8 came throiiiiiiiiiihey will tell you my spiel. 9 MR. : Now, what if you -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- me -. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay? You can go into our 11 MR. : -- what if they are 11 annual training, when we have it, talk to 12 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 12 people, and the will tell you about my spiel. 13 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 13 MR. : Do you say that always at 14 watched a 20-year guy do it. That's how I 14 annual training? 15 learned. He didn't tell me to do it. But I 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I cover everything. Because 16 watched him do it. 16 I have -- 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 17 MR. : Yeah, but do you always say 18 MR. : So, I did that. 18 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I would -. So, I would 19 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 20 say to you, when did that person come in? 20 that. 21 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 21 MR. N'DIAYE: I do. I tell people about 22 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 22 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 23 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 23 to use of force. I tell staff all the time. 24 always, always tell people, you got to know 24 Use enough force necessary to control the 25 what's near and dear to you. 25 situation. 283 284 1 MR. But specifically about 1 followers. 2 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that 2 MR. Now, we're going to move 3 you tell them? 3 on. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what I tell them is, I 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 come in -- 5 MR. : We talked about the phone 6 MR. : Because it sounds like it 6 call. 7 is the same thing you tell them every time. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. So, what I 8 MR. : On August 9th. What is 9 basically tell them, I said, you got some good 9 your understanding of what transpired with 10 people that work in the institution. And then, 10 Epstein being provided a phone call on the 11 I had, you got some people with time, that just 11 night of August 9th, 2019? 12 want to do what they want to do. And I tell 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So, from what I understand, 13 them, don't follow them around. I said, you've 13 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 14 got one. If you are on probation coming in, 14 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 15 you need to be doing your job. I said, if 15 all that. So, from what I understand 16 someone comes in, and they're not doing their 16 afterwards, Epstein was never available for 17 job, or they're telling you not to do 17 that to be done. Because he went down to the 18 something, you make sure you let your 18 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 19 supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you 19 So, from what I understand, he was given an 20 can talk to me. 20 unmonitored call. 21 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And what do you mean by 22 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? So, the 22 an "unmonitored call"? 23 expectation was clear. But with any other 23 MR. N'DIAYE: An unmonitored call is a 24 agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - 24 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone 25 there are people that come in and they become 25 system. EFTA00064381 285 286 1 MR. : Is it your -- 1 the phone to E stein. And then, left 2 MR. : In other words, they don't 2 for the day. MI stayed -". Oh, sorry. 3 listen to what you say? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. They don't. 4 MR. : "Then we found out that 5 MR. : -- is it your 5 the SHU C.O.s here around. 6 understanding that anyone physically monitored 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 the call, or did you -? 7 MR. : And did not 8 MR. N'DIAYE: From what I understand, the 8 specifically instruct any one of them to 9 individual was standing right there when he 9 monitor their phone call. Instead, he called 10 made the call. 10 the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make 11 MR. : All right. So, it is our 11 sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein underst ing 12 and t, "On August 9th, 2019, 12 after his allotted time." Had you heard that 13 quest to MCC unit manager, 13 before? 14 , to provide him with a phone 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I have -. What I heard was 15 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 15 he was there and did the monitoring. 16 mother. 16 MR. So, your understanding 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 was that, was there the entire time of 18 MR. checked Epstein's 18 his call? 19 pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set 19 MR. N'DIAYE: That, at the entire time of 20 up. 20 his call. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. So, a number of questions 22 MR. : Therefore, took 22 off of that. The fact that dialed the 23 Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and 23 number that he gave him, and a man called. A 24 plugged a phone into a legal line. 24 man answered. Who, he said he was calling his 25 dialed the number. A man answered. He handed 25 mother. A man answered and he gave him the 287 288 1 phone. Is that problematic to you? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't hear that it was a 2 MR. : So, he calls, looking for his 3 -. Who did I -? They said it was his -. 3 mother. 4 MR. : So, that information might 4 MR. He said he wanted to talk 5 have come out after. 5 to his mother. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: It came out after. I didn't 6 MR. : But his mother was already 7 - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't 7 dead. 8 hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. I 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 forgot who they said it was that called, but 9 MR. : And the person who 10 then afterwards, they said, whoever they said 10 answered the phone was a male. But he still 11 it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that 11 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 12 talk. 12 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 13 MR. : I think it was his 13 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 14 mother. 14 phone to Mr. Epstein. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I think it might 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, remember, I am hearing 16 So, and that, that is what I heard. 16 this, that it was a call that all along said 17 MR. : His -- 17 I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 18 about a man answering the phone. 19 MR. : -- his mother died during the 19 MR. : No, no, no, no, no. I'm 20 time of this investigation. 20 providing this information as in, like, you are 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm. 21 the warden, what is your take on this? Did he 22 MR. : She was previously deceased. 22 do something wrong there? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Deceased. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, as far as, you know, 24 MR. : So, wait, wait, wait, wait, 24 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, 25 wait. 25 and the -- EFTA00064382 289 290 1 MR. And a man answers the 1 any lines that Mr. could have plugged 2 phone. 2 the phone into, that were monitored, versus if 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and then, a man answers 3 they didn't have a pack and PIN? 4 the phone. Yeah. It might have been some 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Not on the ranges, I 5 questions he should have been asking. 5 believe. I'm not sure. 6 MR. : Should have he verified 6 MR. : No? 7 who it was he was providing -? If he is giving 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't think there was 8 him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored 8 anything on there. 9 line, should have he verified who it was that 9 MR. : Because, yeah, we had 10 was on that other line? 10 been told by someone that many, if not most, 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. If a male picked up 11 BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and 12 the phone. 12 PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are 13 MR. : Why do you know it's an 13 lines that you could plug it into, that are 14 unmonitored line? 14 monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case 15 MR. Because the legal line 15 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 16 isn't recorded? 16 MR. : -- in SHU? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Not on the ranges. 18 MR. : So, that means unmonitored, 18 MR. : Okay. 19 that it's -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. That you can't -. 20 MR. : You said not on the ranges? 21 MR. : -- it's not recorded. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 22 MR. : Where would it be? 23 MR. Correct. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm not sure. I think 24 MR. Okay. 24 religious services might have a line. The 25 MR. On that note, were there 25 Chaplin. 291 292 1 MR. But not in the SHU? 1 anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Not in the SHU. 2 fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the 3 MR. : Okay. So, not only did 3 fact that the other people are in the unit, 4 he do that, but he then left the SHU for the 4 should have they then, at some point, also 5 day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there 5 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 6 and listen to the call. Correct? 6 let's go monitoritsizr should have that been 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 7 something that -- 8 MR. : Should have he put it on 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, you couldn't -- 9 speaker phone? 9 MR. : -- would have directed? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Either listen to the call, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you couldn't -. But 11 or if he had somebody else take over the call. 11 that's what I'm saying. I don't know the 12 MR. : Okay. 12 conversation that took place between them. If 13 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, so, somebody 13 the call was made, and somebody was told to go 14 should have been monitoring the call. 14 monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not 15 MR. : Right. 15 go over it? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Just to stand there and 16 MR. No. 17 listen. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't -. 18 MR. : All riglisz Now, the fact 18 MR. So, Mr. told the 19 that, you know, obviously, dropped the 19 people -- 20 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a 21 MR. -- he's on a phone call. 22 male answered. 22 Get it back after - whenever it was - 15 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 minutes. 24 MR. : Second, he didn't stay to 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell 25 MR. They were giving him an EFTA00064383 293 294 1 unmonitored call. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Right. 2 MR. : The significance of this is 2 MR. : I'm a young lawyer. And I 3 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, 3 know it's hard to believe I was ever young. 4 they might have found out that he was very 4 But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - 5 depressed, or he was -? 5 and I go to the interview, and he says, this 6 MR. : Well, there is -. Can 6 person is the main rat against, and I said, no, 7 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 7 he's not. I said, that person has got no - 8 that what inmates are talking about on their 8 fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say 9 phone calls? 9 nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, just for the safety 10 oh, man, I better make a phone call. 11 and the securit of the institution. 11 MR. : So, is it standard 12 MR. : Is it true that they 12 practice to allow inmates to make personal 13 could potentially operate their businesses, 13 calls, as had done? 14 their illegal businesses, from there? 14 MR. N'DIAYE: You do I, sometimes if they 15 MR. N'DIAYE: You could. 15 come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, 16 MR. : Or they call a hit on 16 you could have a family member that has passed 17 someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of 17 away, and, you know, you allow them to make a 18 different illegal activities, if we are not 18 call under that circumstance. You know, I have 19 monitoring those calls -- 19 a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That's -- 20 but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, 21 MR. : -- that we wouldn't know 21 you make a call to another agency. And the 22 22 inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- why we monitor them. 23 such and such. But you stay and you listen to 24 MR. : All right. I have one more 24 the conversation. 25 story. 25 MR. : Was there ever an 295 296 1 instance that you wouldn't listen to the 1 attorney. 2 conversation? 2 MR. So, he is an attorney? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: On an unmonitored line? 3 Oh, okay. That's the same guy. 4 MR. Mm-hmm. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Somebody should be 5 MR. : Supervisory staff 6 standing there. 6 attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey 7 MR. All right. And what are 7 Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find 8 your thoughts on this specific matter from what 8 complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you 9 we just, from what I just told you? 9 check to see if he has toilet paper, and that 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Like I said, if it's 10 his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned 11 problematic, if you said, if it's the way you 11 regarding his complaint of having had two 12 said it, eal l 12 calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, 13 MR. : And is it a serious 13 there is no recording of them. His phone 14 concern and safety violation? 14 account is set up, so we could get a call on 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, yeah. I mean, it's a 15 the ITS, when 30 days has -- 16 breach. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : And why? 17 MR. : -- elapsed." 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Because we don't know what 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 the conversation was. 19 MR. : So, it looks like this 20 MR. : Okay. You said -. Okay. 20 was actually discussed, and this again, was on 21 You answered that. These are just on this 21 August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It 22 note, there is just a couple of these. There 22 looks like this was the whole, to the whole 23 •• onecall. This one says it's from an 23 executive staff -- 24 . Do you know who that is? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He's the supervisory 25 MR. -- team. Was this talked EFTA00064384 297 298 1 about at all? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I had to. Because 2 MR. N'DIAYE: It was sent out, and that's 2 there was some other things to get set up, and 3 when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said 3 I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can 4 he needs to stuff set up. Anything -- 4 get his stuff going. If that's the date, if I 5 MR. : Okay. 5 remember, where everyone went up and talked to 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that he needs, needs to 6 him at th2a_tii2/2_he was in the attorney room. 7 get it set up. So, I believe that was the day 7 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. Now, this is one 8 when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney 8 that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were 9 room area, and said, get his stuff set up. 9 you able iiiiiint out that attachment? 10 MR. : Now, di', the 10 MR. : No. That's just our screen. 11 captain, I believe, informed that he 11 It's not what the see. 12 would give him this call, just make sure it's 12 MR. : I was just hoping -. 13 monitored. 13 Okay. So this is one we got. It's something 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 from 15 MR. : Prior to that, did the 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hrrim. 16 captain talk to you about this at all? 16 MR. And who is that? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: About what? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: That's the communication 18 MR. : Well, affording this un, 18 guy. 19 you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but 19 MR. Correct. And he is in 20 just making sure it was monitored? 20 charge of, like, the phones -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: The phones. 22 MR. : No? 22 MR. : -- the cameras. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm-mm. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 MR. : But what you had said, 24 MR. : Correct? 25 make sure his pack and PIN is set up? 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 299 300 1 MR. And he's to you, and it 1 information with regards to the call? 2 says, "Phone record 104." 2 MR. N'DIAYE: We might have called him 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 about the line, and what was the number that 4 MR. : Sent on Saturday, August 4 was called. 5 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an 5 MR. : Okay. 6 attachment here, titled 8.19.19.cap. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: And could they have pulled 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 it up. So we mi ht have asked him that. 8 MR. : That we are unable to 8 MR. : But it definitely wasn't 9 open. Do you know what that would have been? 9 an actual recording on the phone? 10 It appears that it is related to the phone call 10 MR. N'DIAYE: No. It was -- 11 that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you 11 MR. : Okay. 12 ever received a recording of that phone call? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I think it might have 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I didn't get any 13 been the number that, you know, I think wanting 14 recordings. 14 to pass on to the FBI. 15 MR. : Would it have -- 15 MR. : Great. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Nuh-uh. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Uh-huh. 17 MR. -- been, maybe, then, the 17 MR. Do you mind just 18 number that he dialed? 18 initialing -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I think it might -. And it 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 might have been the number. I'm not sure. I 20 MR. -- and dating that? 21 can't -. I don't recall. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. I just didn't know what 23 MR. N'DIAYE: What that is. 23 that .cap was. 24 MR. Do you remember asking 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 25 Mr. to provide you with any specific 25 MR. So, we didn't know, oh my EFTA00064385 301 302 1 gosh, do we have a recording of this thing? 1 to me. 2 MR. : The second one, too. 2 MR. : Do you have any 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 3 information, with regard to anyone else taking 4 MR. : All right. Now, we are 4 Epstein's life? 5 going to 921:into the actual incident. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 6 MR. IIIII: Oh my God. Now, 6 MR. : No. Have you heard that 7 (Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get 7 Epstein's cell door was left opened on the 8 into. 8 night of August 9th, 2019, and/or the morning 9 MR. : We don't have much more. 9 of August 10th, 2019? 10 I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't hear that. 11 MR. .Yeah. 11 MR. : You have never heard 12 MR. : -- yeah. What is your 12 that? 13 understanding of what occurred in Epstein's 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 14 cell on August 10th, 2019? 14 MR. : Have you heard that any 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. 15 cellmate's in the SHU - any cells within the 16 MR. : You don't know? 16 SHU, any of their doors were left opened on the 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't go up there. 17 night of August 9th, 2019 in the morning? 18 MR. : Do you -. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I did not hear that. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I never saw the cell. 19 MR. : On August 9th. No? 20 MR. : Do you believe if -. Do 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm-mm. 21 you know if Epstein took his own life? 21 MR. : Do you know if anyone 22 MR. N'DIAYE: That's what I've been told. 22 harmed Epstein? 23 MR. : Is that your 23 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I would have reported 24 understanding of what happened? 24 it. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That was what was conveyed 25 MR. : All right. So, these are 303 304 1 the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons 1 continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment 2 Health Services Clinical Encounter. 2 room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going 4 MR. : Did you get to review 4 to read the rest of this. It just talks about 5 this one at all? 5 continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 6 after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, 7 MR. : It talks about responding 7 at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show 8 to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency. 8 any signs of life? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I think I might have saw the 9 MR. N'DIAYE: I never I wasn't up 10 memorandums, but I don't -. I don't recall 10 there. 11 seeing this. 11 MR. Yeah. I just didn't know 12 MR. : All right. So, let me 12 if you had heard 13 just read this, for the record -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: No. When I -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. -- (Indiscernible 15 MR. : -- because it is a very 15 *03:36:34). 16 quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- when I got there, he was 17 at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. 17 already out. 18 Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor 18 MR. Because they said that, 19 of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress 19 you know, he was declared deceased at the 20 by correctional officers. The inmate was cold 20 hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like, 21 with circumferential bruising around the neck 21 from this erson's report -- 22 and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) 23 MR. • -- he was -- 24 pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. 24 MR. : Right. 25 ED placed. No shock advised. CPR 25 MR. . -- there was no signs of EFTA00064386 305 306 1 life. 1 to look at the response, the staff responding 2 MR. N'DIAYE: And that's -- 2 memorandums on what -. 3 MR. : And I was just wondering, 3 MR. : So, up until this date, 4 had you heard anything from staff? Was there 4 did you think that he was alive when he had 5 ever any signs of life, that you are aware of, 5 left the institution? 6 while after - from the point he was found, on. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: That's what I believed. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the impression that I 7 That was the impression I had. 8 was given was, he was alive when he left the 8 MR. : Can I ask a question? Right. 9 institution. 9 If he was dead when they came, and somebody 10 MR. So, you believed he was 10 found him, or even if he was close to death, 11 actually alive? 11 how long would it have been that he tried to 12 MR. N'DIAYE: That's what was conveyed. 12 kill himself, and the time that they found him? 13 MR. It was conveyed to you 13 In other words, does that mean he tried to kill 14 that -? 14 himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I think he was still alive, 15 tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You 16 if I remember right. I think he was -. They 16 understaniiiiiiiiiition I'm asking? 17 did the CPR. And then, they got him out. 17 MR. : Sure. I mean, that is 18 MR. : And who -. So, according 18 something that the medical examiner, you know, 19 to this, again, this person arrived at 6:35 -- 19 makes that determination. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Because obviously, if he was, 21 MR. : -- they're saying the 21 had done whatever he did, during the time that 22 inmate was cold. You know, "Pupils fixed and 22 there was supposed to be a round, and somebody 23 dilated. No palpus pulses." Meaning, I'm 23 fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are 24 assuming, that means no pulse. You know? 24 there, with a towel around your throat, that's 25 MR. N'DIAYE: So, you would probably have 25 a hint that you are not exactly in the best of 307 308 1 moods. 1 Yeah. That was 2 MR. Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Okay. Does that have 3 MR. N'DIAYE: But the other thing is, you 3 anything to do with the fact that the medical 4 know, I don't know, like you just said, the 4 examiner is the only one who can declare him 5 medical examiner determines, you know, if he's 5 dead? 6 alive or -. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: It does, too. 7 MR. : Well, and that was going 7 MR. All right. And also -- 8 to become my follow up. First of all, who - 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 this person. It says provider, 9 MR. -- I have heard that 10 RN. Is that someone who worked at -? 10 inmates don't die at prisons. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: He was one of the nurses 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I mean, people say 12 that worked. 12 that, but again, in reality, we - no one in the 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 prison can declare an inmate dead. 14 MR. : All right. And is it 14 MR. Right, right, right. 15 your understanding, by saying provider, this is 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Even if -. 16 the person who wrote this report? 16 MR. But is that what you mean 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Typically, who has 17 by that statement, though? Did you -. I mean, 18 the encounter fills it, writes it in the 18 had you heard that he showed signs from life? 19 system. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: From what -- 20 MR. : Okay. So, up until me 20 MR. Because we have heard 21 reading these out, you actually were under the 21 this -- 22 assumption that he was alive? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- from -- 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. -- type of thing -- 24 MR. : When he left. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah, from what I -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I thought he was alive. 25 MR. -- before. EFTA00064387 309 310 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- hear, they were still 1 nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been 2 performing life-saving measures on him, even 2 declared dead. 3 when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming 3 MR. : Sure. 4 in there. So, when you say to me that we are 4 MR. N'DIAYE: But they still -. 5 performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming 5 MR. : Right. 6 that he is still alive. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: But from what I gather, they 7 MR. : Right. Like, there is -- 7 were still working on them. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: so -. 8 MR. : When you say nobody dies in 9 MR. : -- always a chance you 9 prison, you are being facetious? 10 could bring him back. 10 MR. It's just one of those 11 MR. N'DIAYE: That, you know -- 11 things that -- 12 MR. : Or you are hoping that 12 MR. : Yeah. It doesn't -. 13 you are going to resuscitate him. But do you 13 MR. -- it happens at the -- 14 know of an indication of -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : That he was successful -- 15 MR. -- at the hospital. 16 MR. • -- signs of life? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- yeah. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't. Again, I'm going 18 MR. That's where they are 19 off of, assuming that he was still alive 19 declared dead. 20 because the were still working on him. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: So, and if somebody start, 22 MR. : Right. Okay. 23 now, I've been in situations where the 23 MR. N'DIAYE: And that's not, you know, 24 paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on 24 necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are - 25 them, and they say, you know what? There is 25 like, sometimes -- 311 312 1 MR. : It's sort of a joke. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Uh-huh. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. 2 MR. : But just, I just want to 3 MR. : To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). 3 be clear, because with that statement, without 4 MR. N'DIAYE: It's a joke. Because 4 me getting a little more clarification, people 5 sometimes, the bodies are still there, and -- 5 are going to read, wait a second, the warden 6 MR. : Right. 6 said that he was still, he thought he was still 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and we know he is 7 alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 8 deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical 8 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 9 examiner -- 9 to bring him back, or based upon the 10 MR. : Yeah. 10 conversation with someone - and my follow would 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- declares -- 11 be that, who? - did you believe that he was 12 MR. : At the hospital -- 12 still alive? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- (Indiscernible 13 MR. N'DIAYE: My assumption, from when I 14 *03:40:57 14 was called, was they were working on him, and 15 MR. -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57) 15 he was - the were being taken to the hospital. 16 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : The guy's got a big 17 MR. N'DIAYE: That's -- 18 (Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know -- 18 MR. : That was -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Uh-huh. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's the term. 20 MR. : whatever they call them, 20 MR. : -- that -. Wait. You were 21 knives in his chest. 21 called at a certain time. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. When the lieutenant 23 MR. : You know, you can tell he's 23 called. 24 not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm 24 MR. : Okay. Now, the lieutenant 25 saying, (Indiscernible *03:41:04). 25 says -. EFTA00064388 313 314 1 MR. So, when you came back 1 MR. : -- meant he was still alive? 2 and found out, did you ever find out that he 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. I assumed that, you 3 wasn't showing signs of life, when you came in 3 know, they were still working on him, and he 4 and talked to people? 4 was still alive. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Because I - first of 5 MR. : And after that 6 all, when it happened, I wasn't going around 6 conversation, though, and speaking with other 7 questioniiiiiiiiiiiabout -- 7 people, you never gathered that, oh, he was, 8 MR. : Okay. 8 they were working on him, attempting to bring 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- okay, what's going on 9 him back, but he was not alive? 10 with this, because then, I knew that it was a 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't -. 11 criminal case. But not criminal, but there was 11 MR. : From -. 12 going to be an investigation into it. And so, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: The assumption, my 13 I didn't want to give the appearance of 13 assumption, was that he was deceased at the 14 anything, that I was interfering with any 14 hospital. 15 investigation. But when I did call, they said 15 MR. Okay. 16 they were working on him, and that, you know, 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. So. 17 he was being transported to the outside 17 MR. : All right. Do you want 18 hospital. 18 to followsgull that at all, anymore? 19 MR. : And who was it that 19 MR. 'I'll': No. 20 provided you with that information? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: The lieutenant. Lieutenant 21 MR. • Okay. 22 22 MR. : That kind of covers it. 23 MR. : So, you drew the inference 23 MR. : Are we through now? 24 that that -- 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Uh-huh. 25 MR. No. 315 316 1 MR. Oh, god. 1 Because I think worked -- 2 MR. : We only have, really, 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I think this -- 3 very brief conversations left. All gi ll"), 3 MR. : -- until midnight, and 4 this was an email sent from you, to 4 only worked until 10:00. 5 It just says, subject, "Names." 5 MR. N'DIAYE: No. For - and I don't - 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6 correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know if he 7 MR. It says Michael Thomas. 7 wanted to know who was on the midnight shift. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 And then, I included who was on Ten South. I'm 9 MR. Tova Noel, and 9 not sure. 10 10 MR. : I think was 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 the OIC of the shift previous. And then, just 12 MR. Who were -? Why were 12 Tova, 13 those people listed? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Tova would have -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Because he wanted to know 14 MR. -- and Tova were the ones 15 who was wor•iithere that night. 15 from -- 16 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- been two up there. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Who was the staff working 17 MR. -- midnight afterwards. 18 there thaiiiiiiiiii 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 19 MR. : So wh did you write 19 MR. • And then -. 20 versus, like , or who else was 20 MR. : I think that Ten South was 21 up there? Was (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25) 21 22 still there? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. So, I don't know, 23 MR. : No. 23 remember it. But I know it had to do with the 24 MR. : At least and 24 question about who was working. 25 . Was left off for any reason? 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00064389 317 318 1 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't know the 1 this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? 2 specifics and wh it listed those three. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I did. 3 MR. : And you don't know if, 3 MR. : Do you know what the 4 like, because these were, who we considered the 4 purpose of this was? 5 subjects. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Let me read it again. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, these two would 6 "(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this 7 have been obvious because they were working up 7 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 8 there on the midnight shift. But I don't know 8 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 9 why of thrown in there. 9 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. I 10 MR. : Okay. 10 explained that lieutenants were to conduct 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 12 MR. : Mind just initial and 12 (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I 13 dating that? SC And this one is an email 13 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 14 from Captain to you, dated Sunday, 14 *03:45:15)." Oh, no. I just was asking him 15 August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A 15 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 16 memorandum, Epstein." 16 he provided? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : So, what did he provide 18 MR. : And it says that this was 18 to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant? 19 dated August 10th, 2019. 19 Because -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 21 MR. : It's from Captain 21 MR. : -- at least the last 22 It says, subject is, "Security expectations 22 little point on this first page -- 23 involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey." 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- so, it says, "In 25 MR. : Are you familiar with 25 detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant, 319 320 1 he was informed of my expectations regarding 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- on what he sent out. 2 the supervision of inmate Epstein, 2 MR. Okay. So, there is no 3 specifically, he was reminded on several 3 other information, aside from what he's telling 4 occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed 4 you? 5 with a cellmate." 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Yeah. He told me 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 6 that. 7 MR. : So, is this all, like, 7 MR. So, this one is - I want 8 the expectations surrounding -- 8 to get your take on this matter - so, this is 9 MR. N'DIAYE: The expectations. 9 back to , who was relieved 10 MR. : -- Epstein? 10 at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Mm-hmm. 11 least until 9:30, and sent out that email, 12 MR. : And when he says, "During 12 detailing, you know, what day, and the 13 the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to 13 lieutenant's1221 and the daily activity log. 14 address management concerns with inmate 14 So, Captain sent her an email on 15 Epstein," do you know what he is talking about 15 8/12/2019, stating, "Lieutenant , I am 16 there? With management concerns. 16 reminding you to submit your supervisory 17 MR. N'DIAYE: The housing of them. And in 17 memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that 18 the Special Housin Unit. 18 occurred on 8/10/2019. 19 MR. : Okay. And do you know 19 Please have it complete and ready for 20 if, according to this, it looks like he is 20 submission on 8/13/2019." She responded with 21 saying that he did perform an informal training 21 no, addressing nothing, just saying, just 22 sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in 22 responded simply, "In your email, you state, 23 fact, did that, or is it just based upon -- 23 quote, 'I am reminding you.' End quote. I 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Just based upon -- 24 haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding 25 MR. -- what he wrote here? 25 the incident involving inmate Epstein or EFTA00064390 321 322 1 anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. 1 MR. Yes? 2 So, how is it possible for you to be reminding 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, she said she 3 me? Second, I have been properly relieved, 3 responded to the incident? 4 prior to the incident involving inmate 4 MR. : She didn't respond to the 5 Epstein." What is your take on that email? 5 incident. She responded after the incident, to 6 MR. N'DIAYE: First of all, any major 6 help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with 7 incident that takes place in the institution, 7 the inmates. 8 we have to do what is called a report of 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So, she -. Well -. 9 incident. 9 MR. : So, somebody told her that the 10 MR. : Sure. 10 fucking guy hung himself, should she have -. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: He is well within the scope 11 Right? 12 of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Again, from what I gather, I 13 where is -. And I don't know if he was asking 13 am under the impression, when the lieutenant 14 her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the 14 relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you 15 shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident 15 know, and I can't speculate on what was there. 16 took place. So, technically, you should have 16 So, if we -. 17 been doing the packet. So, he is probably 17 MR. She said she stuck 18 contactiniiiiiiiiiithat. 18 around, working on matters that she needed to 19 MR. : Well, she was relieved at 19 catch up on. 20 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So -- 21 incident happened at 6:30. And again, she aws 21 MR. : But it sounds like 22 there at least until 9:30. And she did respond 22 manipulating those numbers on the counts and 23 to the SHU afterwards, helping with the 23 stuff. 24 feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 25 MR. Right? 323 324 1 MR. N'DIAYE: So, let me ask you this 1 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? 2 question. I have, I have a medical emergency. 2 MR. : In other words -- 3 A suicide, right? That is an emergency 3 MR. • I wish we had -- 4 everyone in the institution has to respond to. 4 MR. : -- they're saying it sounds 5 Why didn'iolond to it? 5 fishy. 6 MR. : So, you think that she 6 MR. -- I wish we had thought 7 maybe came back after? 7 of that. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: It doesn't make sense to say 8 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, so, and then, if you 9 9 10 MR. Well, she never sent out 10 MR. And if she didn't, why? 11 her required logs, though. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and if you didn't 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, that, but -- 12 respond, iwh c Sn't you respond? 13 MR. : So, you reviewed her 13 MR. : If she -. Is it a claim 14 emails. And I would think that she would have 14 at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't 15 sent that out, if she had left, I would think 15 technically working? 16 she would have sent that out before she left. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: If you are in the building, 17 Right? As required. 17 you have 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, did you leave 18 MR. : Is that right? 19 and come back? I mean, because if you are 19 MR. N'DIAYE: It's an emergency. 20 saying that you were there, you would have been 20 MR. Okay. 21 one of the first responders up to the unit. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, as a lieutenant -- 22 MR. : Yeah, 22 MR. Okay. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: For the emergency. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I would want to respond, 24 MR. That's a really good 24 and say -- 25 point. 25 MR. And so, the fact that she EFTA00064391 325 326 1 states that she was there, and she was working 1 building. The captain is asking you, it 2 on her administrative responsibilities -- 2 happened on your shift, you are responsible for 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 conductiniiiiiiiiiirt of incident. 4 MR. : -- so, is that a problem, 4 MR. : So, that answer is yes, 5 then, as the warden? What do you mean you are 5 she should have written a memorandum? 6 working on the administrative? You should have 6 MR. N'DIAYE: She should have written one. 7 responded to that emergency. 7 I don't understand why she didn't, you know? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No. But - and I don't want 8 MR. : And is that at all - 9 to speculate on when you are there - but I 9 reading how she responded - is that 10 just, there is just some questions -- 10 insubordination at all, to you? 11 MR. : Wait, and I think -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Listen. I will put it this 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they just don't -- 12 way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how 13 MR. : -- that is a yes or a no -- 13 they tolerate, but if you had given me a 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 memorandum like this, we would be having a 15 MR. : -- you know, question. 15 conversation. You know? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I mean, it's a 16 MR. : Is that, at the very 17 problem. If you are saying I am working on it, 17 least, inappropriate -- 18 okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I think -- 19 need to, because once they had said, hey, I 19 MR. : I think it's 20 have a suicide or something going on, which is 20 inappropriate. I mean, that's the way -- 21 probably over, you know, a real medical 21 MR. : I mean, I read it. I 22 emergency, and you hear the transmission on the 22 thought it was inappropriate. 23 radio, you are going to go up there. So then, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. 24 you say, oh, I went up there later, to help 24 MR. : I just didn't know how -- 25 with the feeding. Either way, you were in the 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I would have gone to have a 327 328 1 conversation, like, you know, first, are you 1 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I didn't hear anything. 2 all right? And then, secondly, what is this? 2 MR. ..would hate to -- 3 But yeah. 3 MR. : You never heard it. 4 MR. : Fair enough. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 MR. : Okay, listen, one last 5 MR. : I would hate to give my own 6 question. 6 client a hard time. 7 MR. : Sure. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 MR. : Does that give the implication 8 MR. : But, but it sounds to me like 9 that she is covering up for somebody, or she 9 she's got three hours where she knows this guy 10 just didn't do her job? 10 is dead. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 MR. : We don't know. That's -. 12 MR. : You know? And she don't say 13 Had you heard anything about her covering up 13 much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would 14 for someone? Because -. 14 be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I haven't heard anything, 15 is going on? Excuse my language, by the way. 16 but, you know -- 16 I have a filthy mouth. 17 MR. : Did you hear about 17 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, I understand 18 inmates saying that she was making statements 18 what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my 19 that she was going to cover for other people? 19 point of view is - and my concern - is -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Again, I don't want to make 20 MR. : Yup. 21 any statements -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- if you were there -- 22 MR. : No, no, I'm asking you -- 22 MR. : Your concern is, you would 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that are not factual. 23 have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked 24 MR. : (Indiscernible *03:51:56). 24 her a question first -- 25 MR. . -- did you ever hear -? 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. EFTA00064392 329 330 1 MR. : -- rather than jumping into, 1 happen. We're not saying she did. We don't 2 which is -- 2 know. If she went in and she altered the 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Because I was -- 3 lieutenant logs, for the previous shift, did 4 MR. : -- which is what I did. 4 she do somethin wrong? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- under the impression, 5 MR. : Well, and again, we are 6 because when Lieutenant IIII called me, he was 6 knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m. 7 the operations lieutenant, and he had relieved 7 So, that is still her shift. 8 her. 8 MR. : Yeah. But -- 9 MR. : Right. 9 MR. We've had this 10 MR. N'DIAYE: She had gone home already. 10 conversation -- 11 MR. : Well, he had certainly 11 MR. -- no, no, but -- 12 relieved her, but -- 12 MR. -- before. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 13 MR. : -- let's just say, you know, 14 MR. -- according to her, she 14 the fact that the inmate wasn't moved until 15 hadn't gone home. 15 midnight, and then the clarification, and the 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 16 count, the count numbers being changed in 17 MR. : Do you mind just 17 there. Now, so, the lieutenant log count 18 initialing and dating that? 18 numbers are accurate, except the count, the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 19 actual count slips, were completely off. So, 20 MR. : Maybe you asked this 20 somewhere along the way, someone altered those 21 question. And I just want to clarify. Being 21 numbers to -- 22 that she started this shift 10:00 p.m. the 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Well -- 23 night before, right? 23 MR. : -- correct it. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the lieutenant is 25 MR. : Let's say this incident did 25 required to take a count on each shift. So -- 331 332 1 MR. : So, see, wait. 1 that, at sc itpoint, the count was altered? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you got the -- 2 MR. IIIIII: The count was wrong. 3 MR. : -- the lieutenant is supposed 3 MR. N'DIAYE: The count was wrong. 4 to take in a count. Right? 4 MR. : Okay. Okay. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. lust to take one 5 MR. : Well, no -- 6 count -- 6 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 7 MR. : He's supposed to -- 7 *03:54:142_::______ 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- on shift. 8 MR. IIIIIIIIII: -- what he's saying is it 9 MR. : An institutional count. 9 was altered. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Institutional count. 10 MR. -- (Indiscernible *03:54:15). 11 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : I'm talking about the numbers 12 MR. Not a physical, in the 12 13 SHU count. 13 MR. : So, if you recall -- 14 MR. : Okay. So, now -- 14 MR. : -- on the paperwork. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: But now, if you 15 MR. : -- on August 9th, 2019, 16 (Indiscernible *03:53:53). 16 the lieutenant's log says, at midnight, there 17 MR. : I got to shut up. 17 was 72 in the SHU. The count slip says 73. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Go ahead. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : He's supposed to take a count. 19 MR. : And the lieutenant's log 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 for the next day at midnight says there was 73. 21 MR. : Right? And he's supposed to 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 22 enter the count. 22 MR. : So, what Agent is 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 asking is, well, that obviously goes to show 24 MR. : Right? Okay. And there was a 24 that she went back and changed those numbers to 25 count entered, right? And there is no question 25 72, because -- EFTA00064393 333 334 1 MR. : But what is her motive -- 1 MR. : So, really, with this -- 2 MR. -- that midnight -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? 3 MR. -- to do that? 3 MR. : -- to show a malicious intent 4 MR. -- she says she was just 4 in her part, there's got to be something that 5 trying to make things accurate. 5 influences her to protect one of the people 6 MR. : But what would be an ulterior 6 that were - no question - were fucking around. 7 motive that would create the idea that she was 7 Right? The two guys that were fucking around 8 doing somethin wrong? 8 ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one 9 MR. : It goes back to when you 9 of them is her friend, then she's got a 10 asked -- 10 malicious motive to go try and cover for that 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Ym-hmm. 11 guy. Like, did 58,000 (Indiscernible 12 MR. : -- is there something to 12 *03:55:58) police officer, he says, well, I 13 do with a cover up? 13 thought he drew a gun on me. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: So, if - and granted, 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 mistakes are made in the log - but you also 15 MR. : And I shot him. 16 annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 17 okay, late entry. Because typically, if you 17 MR. : Oh, okay. Nobody else saw 18 say the log is done already, when you go back 18 that. 19 and make changes, you make changes for this 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 20 reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks 20 MR. : But you are not aware of 21 at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks 21 her involvement at all, you said, or -- 22 like you've been playing, you went back and 22 MR. N'DIAYE: As far as what? 23 just changed the numbers. So, you can put in 23 MR. : -- covering up for them, 24 there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain 24 or involvement in Epstein's death? 25 what your change was, and what the mistake was. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: No. She wouldn't have had 335 336 1 that conversation with them. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't physically go check 2 MR. : And you weren't - until 2 to see if the were, were recording or not. 3 now, it sounds like - even aware that she was 3 MR. : Did you learn that they 4 at the institution after 5:30 a.m.? 4 were not recording? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I was told she left. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. We found out 6 MR. Okay. 6 afterwards that they weren't recording. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 7 MR. IIIII: Wait. Wait. We had this 8 MR. And again, who told you 8 conversation. 9 that? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: The operations lieutenant. 10 MR. : The cameras don't work in a 11 Because he called me and he says, hey, I 11 lot of these institutions. Right? 12 relieved -- 12 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 13 14 15 16 MR. MR. N'DIAYE: MR. So, Sorry. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 13 MR. : All right. And that's because 14 they didn't spend the fucking money to make 15 sure the cameras work. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, it's -- 17 MR. Okay. And did you have - 17 MR. : And I got to stop saying 18 before we move on to the next subject - do you 18 "fuck." 19 have any more on that? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's the issue, too, 20 MR. 20 funding, and, you know, so, since that 21 MR. : So now, we are going to 21 incident, I guess there was some audits done by 22 talk about the cameras. 22 the agency, and they realized that it was kind 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 23 of a system Indiscernible *03:57:15). 24 MR. : Were the SHU cameras 24 MR. IIIII: But you see, the issue is, 25 recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 25 should you have checked why weren't the cameras EFTA00064394 337 338 1 working? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: This was a -- 2 MR. Well, that's my question 2 MR. : -- Ten South. 3 is, do you know why they were not working? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that says camera angle 4 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know the specific 4 out of Ten South. 5 language that was used, and what was wrong with 5 MR. Right. Were you ever 6 it, because I guess, after I left, they kind of 6 provided with that, as far as -- 7 made a determination on what was why -. What 7 MR. N'DIAYE: It looks -- 8 was the reason. I know we were going through 8 MR. -- I think from -- 9 the process of auditing and fixing some 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it looks familiar, but I 10 cameras. But those specific SHU cameras, I 10 don't -- 11 wasn't aware of the extent. 11 MR. -- from 12 MR. : Okay. Let's just really 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he might have. 13 quickly review -- 13 MR. Okay. But you don't 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 remember specifically? 15 MR. : -- the SHU camera 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I don't specific. 16 documentation. Were you ever provided any 16 MR. : Okay. And then, just 17 documents of a camera that actually was working 17 while we are here, I guess, what are these 18 in the SHU? 18 doors right to the right of this picture? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: You mean, the day of the 19 MR. N'DIAYE: This door goes into Ten 20 Epstein thin ? 20 South. 21 MR. : Right, right. At any 21 MR. : Okay. 22 time. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: And then, this one, I think 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't recall. 23 is a utilit r odoor. I'm not sure. 24 MR. : So, were you provided 24 MR. : Okay. So, the door that 25 with this? This is right outside of -- 25 says "46" goes into Ten South? 339 340 1 MR. N'DIAYE: That looks like the Ten 1 this picture -- 2 South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 is -. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like 3 MR. -- would be L. And is 4 Ten South. 4 that where Epstein was housed? 5 MR. : And what are we looking 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I believe he was on the L 6 at down here? 6 tier. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So, this is the, right here 7 MR. Okay. Do you mind just 8 is the officer's station area. 8 initialing and dating that? 9 MR. : And do you - based upon 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 that - do you know what tier that would be 10 MR. : So, here is a map that we 11 right there? 11 were previously provided. Does this look like, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, man. You got 12 then -? So, this is where we were that this 13 (Indiscernible *03:59:02) stopped. Let me see. 13 camera angle is focusing down here on the 14 Is that G and H tier, I think, if I remember. 14 officer's station. This is L tier. 15 MR. : And what would be right 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 to the right of the officer's station? 16 MR. : On the second level. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. Wait. G. H. I. J. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 A. I don't remember if that was I and J. That 18 MR. : And this is where Epstein 19 -- 19 would have been housed. 20 MR. Would this be L tier up 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 here? 21 MR. : Does that look right? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. L and M tier. That's 22 MR. N'DIAYE: That looks right. 23 what -. 23 MR. : Okay. Is this L tier 24 MR. So, right up, right to 24 here? 25 the right of the officer's station, looking at 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That's L tier. EFTA00064395 341 342 1 MR. Does this look like what 1 camera that I'm actually looking at right 2 would have been Epstein's door? I know you 2 there? 3 can't really see because of the police 3 MR. N'DIAYE: That is a camera. 4 crossings -- 4 MR. : Was that camera recording? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 5 MR. : Sir, do you know if the 6 MR. -- on it. 6 camera was recording? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I noticed it. The crime 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't see. After I left, 8 scene tape. 8 I guess they said there were camera issues, but 9 MR. Okay. Do you have any 9 I don't know what, I wasn't provided 10 reason to believe that that wouldn't be 10 information on what specific cameras were 11 Epstein's door? 11 working or not. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean? 12 MR. : So, they didn't tell you 13 MR. As far as, I know we 13 if they were working or not? 14 can't see the number -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, remember, I was 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I don't know the 15 removed. 16 number, but I'm taking your word for it, that 16 MR. : I just didn't know if you 17 that is. 17 found out on the 10th or 11th. 18 MR. : Okay. Now, if you see, 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I was removed on the, 19 this is L tier range. And at the very end, you 19 you know, they said there were some camera 20 see this camera. 20 issues, and then, what they were doing, they 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and 22 MR. Should that camera have 22 I guess they were working to see what was 23 been recording? 23 working and what wasn't working? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 24 MR. : Can you initial and date 25 MR. Okay. And is that a 25 that? 343 344 1 MR. I'm not going to get into 1 MR. N'DIAYE: He's the facilities manager. 2 this since he wasn't aware that they weren't 2 MR. : Okay. So, is this what I 3 recording. 3 wanted to show you? Hold on. Now, did you 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 print out the one that I sent you this morning? 5 MR. : Boy, I'm impressed by your 5 MR. : Is that -. That should be 6 thoroughness I'll tell you that much. 6 the last thin on the 7 MR. That's why they put me on 7 MR. : Okay. I'm not going to 8 it. I'm -- 8 get into those. So, you weren't aware that the 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 cameras were not - or you are not aware if the 10 MR. : You're very thorough? 10 cameras were or were not recording -- 11 MR. . -- yes. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: We had camera -- 12 MR. : You know, if you, if you are a 12 MR. : -- in the SHU? 13 good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no. We had camera issues 14 trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not 14 throughout the institution. 15 supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to 15 MR. : Okay. 16 put an idea in the jury's head, right? Where 16 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't know which 17 you can see they're invulnerable, stay on that 17 specific one, because we had Mr. working 18 fucking idea, because if you are going to be 18 on a project some money for it. 19 thorough, you have to bring out something that 19 MR. : Okay. 20 you don't want to bring out. You know, so you 20 MR. N'DIAYE: But when it came to that 21 to speak to the things, but you know you got 21 specific night, I didn't know if they were 22 them. 22 working or not. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. : Were you ever told that, 24 MR. So, this is an email that 24 either on August 8th or August 9th, that the 25 was received. Who's 25 cameras were not recording in the SHU? EFTA00064396 345 346 1 MR. N'DIAYE: I heard - yes - I was told 1 MR. : -- became aware on August 2 that there were some issues with the cameras -- 2 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC 3 MR. : On either the 8th or the 3 cameras were not recording. They contacted 4 9th, prior to Epstein? 4 comtech , anclay_have also 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no. I'm talking about 5 notified Captain Jermaine IIIIII. Did you ever 6 afterwards -- 6 hear anything about that? 7 MR. Yeah, yeah, no -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I knew prior that there was 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- when it happened. 8 some cameras in the institution that needed to 9 MR. -- I'm saying -. So -- 9 be fixed, but not specifically the SHU, no. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. -- August 10th is the day 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 12 he is found. 12 MR. : And would have that been 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 13 based upon what they found? The AW and 14 MR. : On August 9th or August 14 SIS Lieutenant Doctor? 15 8th, even, leading up to Epstein being found, 15 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Because we had had some 16 were you ever informed that cameras were not 16 issues with cameras, and we were trying to seek 17 recording? 17 funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I wasn't told about 18 what was working and what to get fixed. But 19 cameras. 19 specificallyl_i2_2U, no. 20 MR. : All right. So, based on 20 MR. IIIIIIIIII: All right. So, only 21 our investigation, we learned that MCC, SIS 21 because, you said that you were trying to get 22 Lieutenant Doctor -- 22 funded. Did you know that there were already 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 23 cameras at the institution, and that's what 24 MR. : -- and that AW -- 24 they were able to replace when the FBI took the 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 25 cameras on the 10th, they were able to 347 348 1 immediately replace them with the cameras that 1 request. So, this is a memorandum for -- 2 were onsite? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So, cameras all -. 3 MR. from, it 4 Institutions always have, like, backup cameras 4 looks like a (Phonetic Sp. 5 to fix what is there. But I was talking about 5 *04:05:31). 6 funding tiiiiiiiiiithe whole system. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : So, this was from fiscal 7 MR. The assistant director 8 year 2018 -- 8 for administration. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. -- back in September. 10 MR. : It says, request to 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 exceed the spending limit of 450,000 on a work 12 MR. This is a memorandum for 12 request number 8158, replace camera system at 13 you, from a , acting facilities 13 MCC New York. This work request is to replace 14 manager. 14 the current degraded camera system. The total 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 cost of this work is not to exceed 4800,000." 16 MR. : And these are all the 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 different documents that go with it, regarding 17 MR. : Then, at the bottom, it 18 a new camera system that was purchased. 18 says, "If you have any questions, please call 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 19 me or have your staff contact," and how do you 20 MR. : It was, it looks like 20 say that name? Do you know? 21 there was $800,000. 21 (Phonetic Sp. *04:05:57)? 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Nn-hmm. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: 23 MR. : For this total. These 23 MR. the Third 24 are all the documents that - here you go - this 24 (Phonetic Sp. *04:06:00). Chief facility 25 is an approval of your September 11th, 2018 25 manager branch." EFTA00064397 349 350 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 MR. Uh-huh. 2 MR. : And it says, "At the 2 MR. N'DIAYE: In order, because you needed 3 phone number." And then, here are the, you 3 the comtechs, and I forget the wording that 4 know, the work orders for that. So, we have 4 they used, is to run the cables, to get the new 5 spoken with SigNet, who was the camera provider 5 camera system in. So. 6 6 MR. : And do you know how long 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 that typically takes to run the new wires and 8 MR. : -- they said that on or 8 all that? 9 around October or November of 2018, they were 9 MR. N'DIAYE: You would have to have the 10 delivered. 10 staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 have the 12 MR. And then, talking with 12 MR. : So, were there two people 13 , the (Indiscernible 13 TDY'd, though, in order to do that? 14 *04:06:22) -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: They started TDY'ing people 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 15 in, to come in. 16 MR. : -- city manager, he said 16 MR. : Wait a minute. Can the staff 17 that they started working on the infrastructure 17 run the new wires, or you have to get an 18 of the camera project on or around March 2019. 18 electrician to run the wires? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. We have staff that are 20 MR. : To get everything ready 20 qualified to do it, but then, some of them were 21 for the new camera system that was onsite to be 21 new and rfltily didn't know how to do it. So -- 22 installed, and said that -. 22 MR. IIIII: Okay. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: They had to run wires. But 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, it was -. 24 the old system was there. So, they had to run 24 MR. : So, according to Mr. 25 wires. And they had to get a contract done. 25 it says, "The camera system was 351 352 1 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it 1 looking for funding. 2 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. I misspoke. What 3 February 2019, we only had one communication 3 I'm saying is, I meant that the project 4 technician -- 4 started, but the cameras hadn't been replaced. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 Because they were still running wires for the, 6 MR. : -- therefore, after 6 to get the new s stem started. 7 talking to the regional office, they started a 7 MR. : Okay. 8 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that unit still had the 9 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 9 old cameras. 10 for the camera system, and all other 10 MR. : Right. But then, the 11 infrastructure throughout the institution. 11 camera system was actually onsite, and they 12 MR. : St. Patrick's Day. 12 were working on it? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, yeah, but they weren't 14 MR. : Below is the email sent 14 - you didn't have enough staff to install, to, 15 to all the institution from • 16 (Phonetic Sp. *04:07:49), the northeast 15 16 you know, to rewire the whole place, because we had, we wanted to put one, some on the ranges 17 regional -- 17 that never had cameras. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- facilities 19 MR. N'DIAYE: So, it was a tedious 20 administrator." But point being, it looks like 20 project. 21 that project had started. Correct? 21 MR. : I see. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: It has started, but -- 22 MR. N'DIAYE: That required us to TDY 23 MR. : And I only say that 23 staff from other institutions. And then, you 24 because I wanted to make sure you weren't 24 know -. 25 confused, because you were saying we were 25 MR. Yeah. And were you kept EFTA00064398 353 354 1 apprise of where they were on that? On the 1 MR. And they never provided 2 camera project. 2 you with an update as far as, like, when it 3 MR. N'DIAYE: I would acquire about it, 3 would actually be completed? 4 like, where we were with it. But we were to 4 MR. N'DIAYE: It was still ongoing. 5 the point where we were bringing people in from 5 MR. : Okay. 6 other institutions. To get it done. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Now -- 7 MR. : Okay. And do you know 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:09:27). 8 when the camera system was scheduled to 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but after I left, they 9 actually be installed, or was it ever 9 got people in there and completed it. 10 scheduled? 10 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. Because I 11 MR. N'DIAYE: From - and if I remember 11 think, I think that whole week, they were able 12 right - it was a matter of before you even 12 to complete the whole thing. Correct? 13 installediiiiiiiiiiad to run the wiring for it. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know when. 14 MR. : Right. And that's what - 14 MR. : You don't know? 15 15 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, because they had 16 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *04:09:13). 16 people come in from different institutions. 17 MR. -- I think was -- 17 MR. : Now, is that, did they 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 18 ever, did the facilities manager, Captain 19 MR. -- what they were saying 19 Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the 20 in March of 2019. 20 system was, and that it kept on shutting down, 21 MR. N'DIAYE: But that had -- 21 and stopping, you know, cameras weren't 22 MR. : That -. 22 recording? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- been completed. Because 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, we would have 24 you had to TDY people there. And to get it 24 incidents where, you know, something would 25 done. 25 happen, and we tried to go back and find the 355 356 1 tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break 1 MR. -- we have all these 2 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 2 cameras already onsite, and they had already 3 have issues like that before. But it was the 3 done the wiring for, you know, at least six 4 age of the cameras. The -- 4 months prior to this -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, not all the wiring -- 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, we had 6 MR. : -- they -. 7 infrastructure issues. So. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was done. 8 MR. Because, yeah, the 8 MR. : Yeah. He just, he didn't say 9 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 9 the wiring was done. 10 been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 11 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 11 MR. : No, no, no. I'm just 12 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 12 saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a 13 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 13 feel for what was the plan here, and who was 14 continual problem. 14 responsible. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So, here is what it is. We 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the plan was to get 16 don't have money readily available at an 16 the manpower to get it installed, but at the 17 institution to fix it. That money comes from 17 time, we only had one person. Which was 18 what we call buildings and funds. 18 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. Mm-hmm. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Which is funded by Congress. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: So, one person can't -- 21 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 21 MR. : Well, and the TDY staff. 22 region about what the regional budget is, but 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right, but even the TDY 23 other institutions have issues going on. 23 staff came, they did help. You know, but then, 24 MR. : But being that -- 24 we also had other TDY staff that were coming in 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 25 for, because of our staffing issues. EFTA00064399 357 358 1 MR. Mm-hmm. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. It's not. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: But -. 2 MR. : Yeah. That -- 3 MR. : Well, that's what 3 MR. N'DIAYE: It's not. 4 told us. That the TDY staff that was assigned 4 MR. : -- that can't be true. 5 for him sometimes were getting put on the 5 Captains don't know how to install it. 6 custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He doesn't -- 7 or not? 7 MR. Indiscernible *04:12:11). 8 MR. N'DIAYE: We might have had to do it a 8 MR. : No, no, no. Not to 9 time or two because we wanted to staff. 9 install them. But to make sure that they are 10 MR. : Okay. 10 operational, and get the right people to 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Yeah. 11 actually get it done. 12 MR. : And whose responsibility 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I -- 13 were the cameras? To make sure that those 13 MR. : That can't be right, either. 14 things were going to be operational and working 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- well, I -- 15 properly. 15 MR. : Because how the fuck would you 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, it's not a matter of 16 know what -- 17 who was responsible. It's, like, working on 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. I -- 18 getting it installed. 18 MR. . Well, because -- 19 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -- who the right people is. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: So, there was no deadline as 20 MR. -- because what we were 21 far as, you know, okay, when they had to be up. 21 told is that this was constantly happening, 22 You know, the lust had to be installed. 22 whereas the cameras would stop working. And 23 MR. : Okay. Because we were 23 then, nothing would be recorded. 24 told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So -. 25 that accurate? 25 MR. The only way you find out 359 360 1 that that is happening is to physically check 1 stated. 2 the DVR recording to see if there has a light 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 3 on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and 3 MR. : Like, the fact that the only 4 you are unable to. 4 way we would know if the hard drives were not 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 working is by going in -- 6 MR. : Because everything is 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 7 still live monitored feed, showing, so you 7 MR. : -- to check the video. And 8 can't tell just by looking at the cameras. 8 the video, there is no videos that they can 9 It's only when you try to rewind them, that you 9 pull back. 10 can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. But that, it wasn't 11 MR. : That's when they know the 12 just as simple as that. I mean, there were 12 hard drives stopped recording. 13 technical aspects of it that you had to check 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Stopped recording. And 14 to see if the cameras are working or not. 14 then, and look at them. But then, this is, you 15 MR. : Oh. Absolutely. 15 know, there was other technical aspects of it 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. And the captain 16 that, you know -- 17 basically looking to see if, okay, is the 17 MR. : I can't imagine that -- 18 screen up? And then, is it recording? But 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah -- 19 there was some instances where the hard drives 19 MR. : -- the captain would know. I 20 weren't working, and you don't know that until 20 sure as hell wouldn't. 21 you get deep into it, into the system. So, I 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. 22 wouldn't,Iiiiiinow -- 22 MR. : So, I guess, knowing, 23 MR. : That's -- 23 though, that this was, like, a reoccurring 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- put that -. 24 problem, and the fact that, well, what we 25 MR. : -- that's what he just 25 didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the EFTA00064400 361 362 1 cameras actually stopped recording all the back 1 MR. Not the control room. 2 in July, and for half of the institution. 2 But it's back around where, it's a locked door 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 within the SIS locked room, where the actual 4 MR. : Who should have made sure 4 DVR recording and rack is, and everything. 5 that that camera system was replaced, and that 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 6 we had an operational camera system in there? 6 MR. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the centralized area, 7 8 and I don't know where the break down was. So, 8 MR. N'DIAYE: But -- 9 if it's a centralized area, then it would be, 9 MR. -- is that what you are 10 you know, within our facility department has 10 talking about? 11 access to -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that, but there is also 12 MR. Well, the camera -- 12 another, should be another area in the 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the comm -- 13 institution, just for the communications. 14 MR. : -- you are asking where 14 Where everything comes into. So, I don't know 15 the cameras are? 15 if it was back there or whatever, but our 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, the comm room. 16 facilities department, you know, their 17 MR. : Yeah. The comm room. 17 communication guys check that, too, if there is 18 Where these recorders were, were all in the SIS 18 something intricate with it. 19 secured area. 19 MR. • Now, so, was either Mr. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. The actual cameras. 20 or how do you pronounce his 21 But where - if you go out - where -? And I 21 name? 22 don't know the word, what's the word? Where 22 MR. N'DIAYE: 23 your centralized main area is for the whole 23 MR. Was , or Captain 24 system. Yeah. That SIS areas has the cameras. 24 were either of them expressing the need 25 But that's fine. 25 to you at all, to, hey, we need to get these 363 364 1 things fixed? 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it comes out of our 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, the request had been 2 budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out 3 sent up. 3 of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top 4 MR. Yeah, yeah. No. 4 of that, we were for TDY to come to our 5 MR. N'DIAYE: So, yeah. 5 correctioiiiiiiiiiibecause we were so short. 6 MR. And these were all 6 MR. : All right. So, what 7 onsite. 7 would you say is the main reason, then, that 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, yeah. IU mean, 8 the cameras were onsite, but not installed? 9 we were giiiiiiiiiigh -- 9 Lack of manpower and funding? 10 MR. : And again -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, manpower to get it in. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the process of getting 11 And then, it kind of boiled down to funding. 12 the systeiliiiiiiiiunning. 12 You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done. 13 MR. : But there was no set 13 MR. : But do you have money, you can 14 schedule for when it was actually going to be 14 really keep the TDY people. You don't have 15 completed? 15 money -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Because we had to TDY 16 MR. • Yeah. 17 people. Sometimes we got them in, sometimes we 17 MR. : -- you can't keep them. You 18 couldn't get them. And then, towards the end, 18 know? 19 you know, boil down to money, with getting 19 MR. But again, there is no, 20 people in to come fix them. 20 there was no actual set schedule of it will be 21 MR. : And when people are TDY, 21 operational by the end of this calendar year -- 22 do you - when you say boil down to money - does 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 23 that come out of -- 23 MR. : -- or anything like that? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: It comes out of our -- 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 25 MR. -- MCC's pocket? 25 MR. That wasn't discussed? EFTA00064401 365 366 1 MR. N'DIAYE: That wasn't discussed. We 1 system. 2 were trying, you know, doing the best we can 2 MR. : Right, right, right. 3 with the hand we were dealt. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So, when you go down, yeah, 4 MR. : Okay. And Monday morning 4 obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew 5 quarterbacking that. Should it have been 5 until after the fact that you, you know, that 6 discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras 6 you had a system that was out for two weeks. 7 be installed? 7 You know, I mean, you go to any other, any 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Would -? I don't understand 8 institution, the cameras go down. 9 the question. 9 MR. : Sure, sure. 10 MR. : Well, being that there 10 MR. N'DIAYE: And when the system breaks, 11 is, it seems that there was potentially around 11 somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as 12 two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no 12 far as getting the new system up, we were 13 cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten 13 working on it. 14 South. 14 MR. : Okay. You want to follow 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 up with aiiiiiithat? 16 MR. : That were recording. 16 MR. : You mentioned no one knew. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: But that wasn't known -- 17 But the problem was, according to the comtech, 18 MR. : But it was, according to 18 the system failed, the motherboard had to be 19 the, you know, according to the facilities, as 19 replaced on the 29th -- 20 well as the comtech, they said it was very well 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 known that this continually happened, and that 21 MR. : -- they had a failure. 22 the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 drives because they kept on crapping out and 23 MR. : And then, of course, no one 24 not recording. 24 checked it until the 8th. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it is an antiquated 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 367 368 1 MR. : August 8th. When the AW and 1 is at, it could be in California, or whatever. 2 the Lieutenant Doctor went in and they tried to 2 So, you got to see how long it takes to get 3 3 that part. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- review video. Now, being MR. N'DIAYE: Over to repair. 6 that they identified the system wasn't working 6 MR. : And the key part for my 7 that day -- 7 heating system -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 MR. : -- how soon should it have 9 MR. : -- is in fucking Belarus. 10 been fixed? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean? When they 11 MR. : My understanding is they, it 12 12 was the hard drive that they needed. Right? 13 MR. : On the 8th. 13 And the hard drive was sitting with the 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 computer services. 15 MR. : This is two days before that 15 MR. : Yeah. On the 8th. They 16 Epstein was found. If they identified on the 16 weren't able to get it. 17 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. 18 working. It's technically not recording. How 18 MR...eah. 19 much of a priority is it to make sure that 19 MR. : And on the 9th, they got 20 those cameras are up and running immediately? 20 it. But then, he claims that he wasn't able to 21 MR. N'DIAYE: It's a priority. So, what 21 gain access to the room because it was an SIS 22 happens is, and we have run into this before, 22 shop, and he needed to go until later in the 23 the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily 23 day, and they were gone. 24 available. So, you have to go somewhere and 24 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean -- 25 call for the parts, and depending on where it 25 MR. And on the 10th -. EFTA00064402 369 370 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- we have an emergency keys 1 working on getting the parts, but then got the 2 to get into any area of the institution. So, 2 parts again on the, some time on the 9th, 3 if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS 3 claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't 4 office -- 4 get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 going to work on it on the 10th, on that 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you got the captain, you 6 Saturday. 7 know, we got the techs that work in there. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So, the question -- 8 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 8 MR. : -- and what is your -? 9 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the question I would pose 10 can get that box o en. 10 to you is, did he notify anybody that he 11 MR. : So, he said that the only 11 couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt 12 way to be able to get into it is if he broke 12 to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, 13 the glass -- 13 I need to get into that office to get a part to 14 MR. N'DIAYE: He can break the glass. 14 do it, because if he had told the captain that, 15 MR. : mm-hmm. It's okay 15 the captain would have got that office open for 16 that he would have done that? And then, should 16 him. 17 have he? 17 MR. : Yeah. I agree with you. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. If you couldn't 18 It's a he says that the MCC was a different -. 19 reach, you could just -. Well, he should have 19 So, at any other BOP institution, in the 20 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 20 country, that would have happened with, his 21 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 21 experience taught him that, at the MCC, 22 MR. : Do you think it's at all 22 basically it could wait until tomorrow. 23 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 23 MR. : They wait until tomorrow. 24 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that's his opinion. But 25 working on it, or at least, I guess he was 25 again, I'm going to pose a question. Who did 371 372 1 he bring up the issue to? Because my thing is, 1 needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being 2 if you know it's an emergency, and it's a 2 looked at as the fall guy. 3 situation to is the MCC, is a cop-out. 3 MR. : You know, it sounds like he 4 MR. : And is it, would that be 4 could, you know -. 5 classified as an emergency? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't -. This is not an 6 MR. N'DIAYE: If the cameras are down, 6 issue of bei n the fall guy. 7 yeah. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. That is an emergency. So 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So, let's take every issue 9 9 we just talked about. We talked about the 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Let's get them back. 10 camera project that we were working on. 11 MR. -- he should have 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 absolutely gotten into that room -- 12 MR. N'DIAYE: We were getting the people 13 MR. N'DIAYE: He should have gotten -- 13 in there to working. So now, let's talk about 14 MR. -- one way or another? 14 the specific issue that you were talking about. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- in there, and he knows he 15 He did not notify anybody to get into that 16 could have gotten into the room, because you 16 room, to get to that part. That part was to 17 can, we can break - if he said that stuff was 17 fix the current system. It had nothing to do 18 sitting in there, whatever room he said it in 18 with the new system coming in. This is, he is 19 there, guess what? You can break glass. You 19 saying that this was a part that we needed to 20 can break glass after hours, if you need to, 20 fix, get put in, to deal with the current 21 and it's to get in, into an area. 21 system . 22 MR. : So, his claim is that, he 22 MR. : Now, what about the fact 23 has rebuilt these things so many times. And 23 that Lieutenant is saying both she and 24 every knew that these cameras needed to be 24 the AW knew that the cameras were down on 25 reinstalled, and he had been saying that they 25 August 8th. They told to fix them. And EFTA00064403 373 374 1 they also notified Lieutenant so that 1 he was told, informed, learned. 2 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 3 MR. : So, we have all Friday on 4 being down on the 8th. 4 the 9th to make sure it's done. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 6 MR. : So, at that point, what 6 MR. : On the 10th, 7 are the responsibility of the captain and the 7 unfortunately, is when -- 8 AW? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: But -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what th2ilptain does is 9 MR. -- we know the severity 10 he notifies facilities where works for, 10 of the issue. 11 and says, hey, the cameras are broken, you need 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but that's my point. You 12 to fix them. 12 knew that, okay, you were made aware that the 13 MR. : So, should the captain 13 cameras needed to be fixed. Okay. So, your 14 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 14 answers, what you are saying is, I couldn't get 15 were fixed? 15 into a certain area, so -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I don't know what 16 MR. : Well, that's what 17 conversation he had with facilities to say we 17 is saying. Yeah. 18 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but that, okay, but -- 19 not. 19 MR. : But my question is, 20 MR. : Well, do you know 20 should the AW or the captain have followed up 21 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 21 with that, to make sure that it was actually 22 somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it 22 being done. 23 on the 9th? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: And to them, I don't, you 24 MR. : Well, the 9th is a 24 know, I don't want to make the assumption 25 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that 25 because I don't know. There could have been 375 376 1 some follow up. I don't want to speak on it, 1 MR. . Right. 2 but you know, if he had told him something on 2 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. He could have 3 the 8th, you know, I don't know the 3 said -- 4 conversations that were taking place between 4 MR. : Well, we do -- 5 them. Like, where is that, and what is he 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- oh, well, I'm not going 6 saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he 6 7 is sayingsalit_Takes no sense. 7 MR. -- we know. But yeah. 8 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Yeah. No. I would just 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- huh? 9 think that, you know, being a captain or an AW 9 MR. And we know. 10 would be -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 11 MR. Yeah. 12 MR. : -- whoa. The cameras are 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't know. I don't 13 down in the institution? 13 want to that part. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah, no. That's 15 MR. : Well, let's make sure 15 what we are trying to tell you. Is, like -- 16 that those things are back up -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So, and -- 17 MR. : -- we know he was there. 18 MR. : -- so they would at least 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 19 check back in on the 9th, and say -- 19 MR. : On the 8th, he couldn't 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and then -- 20 get the parts. On the 9th, he got the parts. 21 MR. : -- where are we at on 21 But then, he said, he tried to get into the SIS 22 this thing? 22 office. He was told by the - it wasn't an SIS 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but then, I don't know, 23 tech, because there were only two people there. 24 you know, what that conversation was. I don't 24 It was so, that -- 25 know if, on the 9th, even came to work. 25 MR. : Monitored. EFTA00064404 377 378 1 MR. -- monitored the 1 office said -- 2 telephones. I think he's now retired. IIII 2 MR. N'DIAYE: So, the -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 3 MR. : -- they said that -. 4 MR. : Was there. And he said, 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the phone monitor is, 5 I'm getting ready to leave, and he can't come 5 he's in the SIS, but he draws keys to get into 6 in here without me. And then, he said, I 6 that room. So, that room is all -. And you 7 didn't have access to the room after that. So, 7 can draw ke s to et into that room. 8 my plan was to come in on the 10th, the 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 Saturday, because I was coming in anyway. And 9 MR. : When you saw draw keys, what 10 that's what I was going to work on. 10 do you mean? 11 MR. N'DIAYE: He's the com shop. He can 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, you get them from 12 go anywheitid2/2there are computers. 12 control center. 13 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, that is not an 13 MR. ..kay. 14 acceptable answer that he provided? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't understand that 15 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? 16 answer. 16 MR. : Well, we were told by 17 MR. Okay. 17 Lieutenant the only way he could have 18 MR. N'DIAYE: It's because that room is 18 gotten them is to break the glass, which he 19 not in where the SIS shop is. That's the phone 19 could have done. But -. 20 monitor room. That's the camera room. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: You could have broken the 21 MR. : And the key for the camera 21 glass. And that time of time it was 8:00. The 22 room is how, I think it's only the SIS 22 captain is there. The security officer who 23 lieutenant, and the SIA that has the keys for 23 controls all the keys in the institution is 24 it. 24 there. 25 MR. That's what the SIS 25 MR. Right. 379 380 1 MR. N'DIAYE: You can go to them and say, 1 MR. And who - I'm sorry - can 2 hey, I need -- 2 you remind me, who was acting in your stead on 3 MR. MThe key. 3 Friday? 4 MR. : Now -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: I believe it was 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I need the key. 5 , I think. 6 MR. : -- now, did either the 6 MR. Okay. 7 captain or the AW inform you of this issue? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I don't -- 8 MR. : Now -- 9 MR. : So, you didn't know -- 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I don't -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 11 MR. : -- anything about this? 11 MR. So, you weren't even 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- recall anything about 12 there. 13 that issue. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 14 MR. : Should have they? 14 MR.illilli: Our understanding is, I think 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So, if -- 15 Captain was in the institution, too, 16 MR. : If it was a Thursday, 16 about 8:00 p.m. 17 they found out, and it was all -. You weren't 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 there for that. 18 MR. : On the 9th. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I weren't there on Friday. 19 MR. the 9th. 20 MR. Okay. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: I wasn't there on Friday. 21 MR. : So -- 22 MR. You weren't even -- 22 MR. On Fri' 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. -- could have been to 24 MR. -- there on Friday. 24 any time during that period? 25 MR. N'DIAYE: So, you know -. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: He could have seen him. I EFTA00064405 381 382 1 mean, just, you can't -. If it's an emergency 1 MR. : All right. 2 to get something for, I don't understand. That 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- gets the people in there, 3 is not -. 3 but we're allocating things. But again, I want 4 MR. : No. That's great to 4 to say, tiiiiiiiiliou know, with manpower. 5 know. 5 MR. : Okay. Now, you've pretty 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 6 much answered this, and you can say it's the 7 MR. : About this. So, you say 7 same answer, but I just want to read you the 8 that's not acceptable. 8 question. What are your thoughts on the fact 9 MR. N'DIAYE: No. You can, you can get in 9 that the new camera system was there since 10 there. Sli_i_don't know -. 10 October 2018, but it wasn't installed after the 11 MR. 'I'll': Well, one of the things is, is 11 Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 12 in prisoniiiiiiiiiii a camera. Yeah. 12 2019? 13 MR. : Right. Especially in the 13 MR. N'DIAYE: It's the manpower. 14 SHU. 14 MR. : Manpower. 15 MR. : Right. Especially in the SHU. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You know, getting 16 MR. : Now, who was responsible 16 people, qualified people in there to do it. I 17 to have the new camera system installed? 17 mean, one person couldn't do that. It was, and 18 MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean as far as 18 we were putting in new cameras in new areas. 19 responsible? 19 So, he needed more people. One person couldn't 20 MR. : Like, who had overall 20 do it. 21 oversight on that? 21 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 22 MR. N'DIAYE: The facilities manager. 22 initialing? And don't have to go through this, 23 MR. : Mr. 23 just the top is fine. Anything more on the 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Mr. . Yeah. So, he - 24 camera issue? 25 25 MR. : Oh, Christ. You got more 383 384 1 issues? 1 MR. -- yeah. It says, 2 MR. No. I think the -. We 2 "Please ensure this information is given to the 3 have one more issue, and then just a couple of 3 OIG FBI. Thanks." 4 questions based upon the BOP's findings. It 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 does say that there's leaks information. Where 5 MR. : And then, this next one, 6 are those emails? 6 like you said, is from to the director. 7 MR. : It was in -. Did we mix that 7 Subject, "Prison guards skip mandatory checks 8 up? 8 before Epstein's death." This, the body says, 9 MR. Here it is. So, here is 9 "Couldn't see the entire article on my phone, 10 two emails that were sent both from 10 but I wouldn't be surprised there are staff 11 One to you, and one to (Phonetic 11 that are paid contacts for local media outlets. 12 Sp. *04:29:13). 12 This has also been discussed at the department 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He was the acting 13 level, all the way to the White House. And who 14 director at the time. 14 knows who may have overheard those 15 MR. : Director of the BOP? 15 discussions." 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Okay. So, the first one 17 MR. : Do you know anything 18 was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. to you. 18 about leaks in the media from the MCC? 19 And the subject is, "Urgent request. Potential 19 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what happened was, when 20 leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death." 20 (Phonetic Sp. *04:30:17) came to see me, 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 21 the issue we had was - and I told him about it 22 MR. It looks like -- 22 - was there was a article in the Post that took 23 MR. You mean -- 23 a picture of our staff, and our staff rode with 24 MR. • -- where is the -- 24 Epstein on it. So, I told about it, and 25 MR. -- media leak? 25 I guess they said one of the paramedics had EFTA00064406 385 386 1 leaked the information. 1 been leaked out to the media, and you are, 2 MR. : Like, took a picture of 2 like, where is this coming from? 3 them, like -- 3 MR. : Do you have any 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Took a picture -- 4 suspicions, though? 5 MR. : -- posing with him? MR. N'DIAYE: I can't speculate. I mean 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- took a picture of them 6 7 coming in the room, when they got to the 7 MR. : That's my boy. I mean, I 8 emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein 8 don't know nothing. 9 being rolled in. And our - what do you call 9 MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *04:31:48). 10 it? - and our staff. So, I talked to 10 MR. : You're talking like an 11 about that, and then, I had also told him that, 11 attorney. 12 you know, there might be some staff, you know, 12 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I mean -- 13 because, and I didn't know where it was coming 13 MR. : But like that, I don't know 14 from, because the information was just coming 14 nothing, but what I do know, I don't know. 15 out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, I can't speculate. 16 where is this, you know, cooing from? So, I 16 I mean, the half of it was towards me. I mean, 17 called and made him aware, you know, told him 17 so 18 about it when he came on Sunday. But the main 18 MR. Did you leak the 19 one was because of the picture in the Post. 19 information, you mean? 20 MR. : Now, who is it that you 20 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I said it was towards 21 suspect would have been leaking information to 21 me. 22 him? 22 MR. Oh, you mean the 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I couldn't, I couldn't even 23 information -- 24 tell. But I just was, you know, with this 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Like, the negative press -- 25 whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had 25 MR. -- and the negative to 387 388 1 you? 1 know, put on me. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. It reverted back 2 MR. Mm-hmm. 3 to me. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: And then, you know, the 4 MR. Uh-huh. 4 other part of it was, I don't know if it came 5 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I mean, that's, you 5 from the department. I don't know if it came 6 know, and it was .ust, it was fast and furious. 6 from the institution. 7 MR. : So, like, negative things 7 MR. : Okay. 8 to people, you believe someone in the BOP was 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Because all that information 9 leaking negative information about you? 9 was goingiiiiiiiiii -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't -. I mean, I, you 10 MR. : But did anybody -- 11 know -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- up on different levels. 12 MR. : Can you give me, like, an 12 MR. : -- did anyone tell you 13 example of what was leaked about you? 13 that they believed that a certain person was 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I mean, you know, 14 leaking information? 15 stuff thaLti2ppened, you know -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I didn't hear if it was 16 MR. IIIII: Listen, the -- 16 a certainiiiiiiiiIII didn't, you know? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and I'm not saying -- 17 MR. : Okay. And did you leak 18 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *04:32:26) 18 any information to the media? 19 investigation was going on. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Absolutely not. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- specifically -- 20 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 21 MR. : I mean, you know -- 21 initialing and dating that? Do you believe, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- specifically -- 22 though, somebody in the BOP was leaking 23 MR. : -- whose fault is it? 23 information? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. Towards me. But 24 MR. N'DIAYE: And I'm not -- 25 it was just automatically the blame was, you 25 MR. And I don't mean that EFTA00064407 389 390 1 personally. I just mean -- 1 MR. N'DIAYE: It could have been anybody. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: no. But -- 2 So, I don't want to -- 3 MR. -- you know, you could 3 MR. : Gotcha. 4 always get -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- kind of put it 5 MR. N'DIAYE: - I don't -- 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. -- the second one under 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- on one person. 7 there. 7 MR. : All right. The last 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it could have been up to 8 actual topic, before we ask a couple about the, 9 the department, because the information was 9 a couple about the findings. Epstein's will. 10 going up to them. I mean -- 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : But I just mean, like, 11 MR. : Do you know anything 12 based upon what information was being leaked, 12 about Epstein changing his will just prior to 13 do you believe that someone in the BOP - not 13 his death? 14 necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Mo. 15 leaking the information? 15 MR. : Had you ever heard that? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: I will put it this way. The 16 MR. N'DIAYE: After the fact. 17 Department of Justice might -- 17 MR. : Right. And when you say 18 MR. Yeah. 18 after the fact, how did you learn about it 19 MR. N'DIAYE: because all the 19 after the fact? 20 information -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Reading it. 21 MR. Because it could be -- 21 Or hearing_ji_sELIte news. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was -. Yeah. 22 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Did you ever hear about 23 MR. OIG. FBI. 23 it in an official capacity? 24 MR. Initial. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 25 MR. Anybody. 25 MR. All right. Do you know 391 392 1 if it's true? 1 the BOP created in response. So, just a few 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Don't know. 2 quick questions on it. It says, "On August 3 MR. : Okay. 3 1st, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented 4 MR. He left this all to his 4 they were notified by correctional systems of a 5 brother. 5 form received from the United States Marshal 6 MR. I -- 6 Service, the previous day, stating inmate 7 MR. Is that true? 7 Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies." 8 MR. -- I can't comment on 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 that kind of stuff. But what actions should 9 MR. : Do you know anything 10 have been taken, or you don't know if it was. 10 about that, and what transpired? 11 If it was learned that Epstein's will had been 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Wait. Read that again. 12 changed just prior to his death, do you believe 12 MR. : So, "On August." So, 13 any specific actions should have been taken? 13 just to refresh your memory of a time, 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know anything. I 14 timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of 15 mean, I can't comment on that. 15 psychological -- 16 MR. : Okay. So, that's the 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Psychological observation. 17 last of the topics. Now, we have - 17 MR. : -- observation. 18 (Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don't 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 19 think we have to refer to anything other than 19 MR. : And goes to the SHU. 20 the - where is that? 20 "Two days later" - so, there's July 31st and 21 MR. Millie after action? 21 August 1st - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented 22 MR. : Yeah. Do you have it? 22 they were notified by correctional systems of a 23 And I don't know what we actually need to cite 23 form received from the United States Marshal 24 (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This 24 Service, the previous day." So, I guess on 25 is the after action report. Is that -? That 25 July 30th. EFTA00064408 393 394 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : The 31st, I mean. 2 MR. : And after coming off of 3 "Stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal 3 psychological observation. "1:00 p.m. 4 tendencies." This was the BOP's finding. Do 4 Psychology conducts a suicide risk assessment 5 you know anything about that? 5 noting watch is not indicated, with a 6 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know anything about 6 recommendation for follow up in one week. The 7 that. And that's before, when he first came in 7 delay in conducting this assessment is not 8 the systeg or s_2f_:?__ 8 justified in the report." Did you learn 9 MR. IIIIIIIIII: No. That was after he 9 anything about that? 10 came off of psychological observation. So, 10 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I don't. 11 after his actual first attempt at suicide. 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: I -- 13 MR. : Or potential harm from 13 MR. : And again -- 14 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it's psychological. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I didn't. 15 MR. -- this is just some of 16 MR. You don't know anything 16 the 17 about that? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Nuh-uh. 18 MR. . -- the negative findings. 19 MR. : Okay. And do you know 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 20 anything about the suicidal tendencies that he 20 MR. We just want to know your 21 was showing? 21 take on it. I don't expect you to know any, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 22 all of this, or anything. 23 MR. : No. All right. And 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 then, on the same date, Au ust 1st 2019, 24 MR. : It's just asking because 25 again, this is after the incident. 25 there's some negative findings. Okay. The 395 396 1 next one. It says, "Significant -- 1 deficiency." 2 MR. : Don't bring this guy in on 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, that statement is 3 another case. All right? If the next time 3 incorrect. I know the regional office looked 4 this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring 4 into it and said that a pre-trial institution 5 this guy, don't fucking do it. 5 can outcount an inmate to go into court. So, 6 MR. : It says, "Significant 6 he doesn't have to be keyed out on the ARS. 7 discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding 7 MR. : Okay. 8 admission/release status, ARS." 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So, the way they were doing 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 it, they looked at it after the fact, and said 10 MR. : Sentry does not reflect 10 there wasiiiiiiiiiirong with that. 11 inmate Epstein being escorted from the 11 MR. : So, they did re-review 12 institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on Julyl 12 this matter, and -- 13 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 14 form is on file, documenting -- 14 MR. : -- said that there was -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: They were fine -- 16 MR. : having received him 16 MR. : -- they were doing it -- 17 from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- with it. 18 review revealed inmate Epstein departed the 18 MR. : Okay. 19 institution for a total of four court 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Because they kept 20 appearances, and only one of these occasions 20 thinking, when they were looking out, same 21 was an ARS change made within Sentry. It 21 thing like you said, he was going out to court, 22 appears there is a culture of foregoing this 22 but they can outcount him in that area. 23 vital function, due to the likelihood of the 23 MR. : All right. And what are 24 inmate returning from court. This lapse in 24 they talking about, like, pre-removing him or 25 procedure is a severe inmate accountability 25 something like that, when he goes to court? EFTA00064409 397 398 1 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Going to court. 1 MR. -- an issue. 2 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- an issue. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: And if anyone is going to 3 MR. : All right. The next one, 4 court, because you have so much court movement 4 it says, "No notations concerning a requirement 5 that you can outcount them. And then, when the 5 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 6 Marshals say, hey, he's not going out, then you 6 program, and subsequently available for SHU 7 release him out of -- 7 officers to reference." Who would have been 8 MR. : So, this is -- 8 responsible for noting that in the SHU program? 9 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: So -. 10 MR. : -- this means, on the El, he 10 MR. First of all, what is the 11 would be listed on the outcount? 11 SHU program? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: As court. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: The SHU program is -- 13 MR. : As court. 13 MR. : Is that the 292? 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- with the 292s. So, I 15 MR. : Okay. 15 don't know, from what I understand, and was 16 MR. And that's what they were 16 told after the fact, that they couldn't find 17 actually doing? 17 the information on Epstein in the SHU program. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: That's what they were doing. 18 So, I don't know how you came to that 19 MR. Okay. 19 conclusion. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: They had him on the El. 20 MR. : By the way, let the record 21 MR. So -- 21 indicate that he is not sweating under his 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 armpits.',sign. 23 MR. -- so, this is no longer 23 MR. : We didn't. BOP came to 24 24 these conclusions. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That's not -- 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, I don't know 399 400 1 where that conclusion came from because from 1 check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't 2 what I gather, they couldn't get - they 2 know. 3 couldn't find the -. Because usually -- 3 MR. : That's after they found out 4 MR. : Well, they found the 4 the 5 292s, but they were just very limited. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. The 292s usually had 6 MR. : -- came down and had them 7 to have eiiiiiiiiiiindicated on it. So -. 7 (Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain 8 MR. : And on that note, we were 8 (Indiscernible *04:40:45). 9 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 and it should have been larger. Had you heard 10 MR. : But back to the original 11 anything about people removing documents from 11 question, whether it was there or not. 12 files? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: From what I understand, and 13 MR. : If it, the cellmate 14 was told, that there was no file. They 14 requirement was not entered in the SHU program, 15 couldn't -. They had every other inmates file, 15 who should have made sure that it was? 16 but not his. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: On the, in the 292? And I 17 MR. : They couldn't even find 17 don't know who was doing it. It should have 18 it. You didn't think they could find his file 18 been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it's all 19 at all? 19 in there. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: No. That's what was told to 20 MR. : So, the SHU lieutenant? 21 me. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: When they - yeah - when they 22 MR. And who told you that? 22 deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain 23 MR. N'DIAYE: I think I heard that after 23 conveyed the information to him, that should 24 the fact. I don't know if the regional 24 have beenliiiiiiiiie 292. 25 director told me after they came in and did the 25 MR. : So, either -- EFTA00064410 401 402 1 MR. N'DIAYE: By the lieutenant. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That would have been 2 MR. : -- the SHU lieutenant or 2 3 the OIC. 3 MR. -- on July 30th. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- put out, and then, when - 5 MR. : Now, when you say the 5 6 OIC, does one OIC of one shift take more 6 MR. So, who, at that time, 7 responsibility than another? 7 should have noted that in his file? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No. They are all on the 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, you would probably 9 same shift. So, it would depend on -- 9 have to find out from the captain who he 10 MR. So, like, for instance, 10 directed to -- 11 was the OIC on the day watch, but -- 11 MR. : Well, the captain -- 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- to doing that. 13 MR. : I think was the 13 MR. : -- according to his, you 14 OIC on the night watch. 14 know, his memo that he sent to you -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, would one of them had 16 MR. : -- it says that he 17 more of a responsibility to do this than 17 specifically had these conversations on 18 another? 18 multiple occasions, with -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: No. But that should have 19 MR. N'DIAYE: The SHU -- 20 been done on the initial, when the directive 20 MR. : -- Lieutenant IIII. 21 was put out. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. So, it would have 22 MR. : So, from Doctor, or Ms. 22 been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one he had. 23 saying that here's coming off of 23 If El was the one, then IIII would have been 24 psychological observation, he needs to be 24 the one. But -- 25 housed with a cellmate -- 25 MR. Okay. "August 9th, 2019. 403 404 1 8:00 a.m. Inmate the cellmate, departs 1 MR. Because then it says -- 2 for court." 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- when you look at the 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 3 document 4 MR. : Again, this claims court, 4 MR. 5 but if they are seeing WAB. Actually, you know 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- go ahead. 6 what? I heard WAB was specific to MCC. Is 6 MR. : -- yeah, and then, it 7 that correct? 7 says, "Inmate does not return to the 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Other institutions will tell 8 institution." 9 you pack up your inmates with all belongings 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 That's, you know -- 10 MR. : So, and this was when a 11 MR. : Because even -- 11 lot of things, when we were first starting this 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- what it is. 12 investigation, we heard was court, court, 13 MR. : -- on their findings, 13 didn't return from court. 14 they are showing that he departed for court. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 15 MR. : And then, when we 16 MR. : Although, all the 16 actually looked through the record, we were, 17 documentation we showed says WAB. 17 like -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: WAB. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 19 MR. : And transferred. 19 MR. : -- court. It's -. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. And it says -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I think people thought, 21 MR. : So, even on here, they 21 without looking at the documentation, that he 22 are getting this wrong? 22 went to ciiiiiiiiliot released from court. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: And that's what the whole 23 MR. : Okay. 24 confusion is, is the assumption that he was 24 MR. N'DIAYE: So. 25 going to court -- 25 MR. So then, I'm just going EFTA00064411 405 406 1 to read the question. If the documents list 1 institution? 2 as being WAR, and if they had the 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Kind of. I wouldn't say the 3 transfer list, why did they say he went to 3 OIC, but ou know senior staff around. 4 court and did not return? 4 MR. : Okay. "This call was 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't answer that. 5 done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely 6 MR. : Okay. "7:00 p.m. 6 concerning why this call would have been 7 Epstein was provided a social call by the 7 placed, and why it would be done on an 8 institutional duty officer." Does that mean 8 unmonitored line. Without further interviews, 9 IIIIIII? 9 it is not possible to determine the reason for 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He was the duty 10 this call." lust, why does it say, "extremely 11 officer at that time, I believe. 11 concerning"? 12 MR. : And what does the 12 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Both are 13 institutional duty officer mean? 13 report -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: So, what the duty officer 14 MR. : But I mean, do you also 15 is, is after hours, they walk around and, you 15 find it extremely concerning? Would you 16 know, repiiiiiiiiiiincies, you know -. 16 classify it as extremely concerning? 17 MR. : Is that, like, the 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it would be -. I 18 highest ranking official there? 18 mean, that the choice of words that they use. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: That comes on at night. You 19 So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use 20 know, there with the lieutenants. But they 20 the word extremely concerning. But I would 21 just make sure that if we had any issues, you 21 think, I would -- 22 know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like 22 MR. : It's certainly wrong. 23 that. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it would be -- 24 MR. : So, they are kind of, 24 MR. : But -. 25 like, the, basically the 0IC for the 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it was an issue. But 407 408 1 extremely concerning. 1 authorized to come in and interview people? 2 MR. : Okay. "On August 9th, 2 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I've done after actions. 3 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU 3 And there is a point where you come to it, 4 number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer 4 where you, if it's an OIG or FBI investigation, 5 briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the 5 that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain 6 other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 m. officers, 6 people because it might impede an 7 with the likelihood inmate IIIII would not be 7 investigation. Like, if you are going to look 8 returning, and inmate Epstein would require a 8 at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you 9 cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. 9 can't because most of the time, it's been 10 Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate 10 taken. know -. 11 upon his return to SHU." My question to you 11 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, possibly from that 12 is, just, how did they know this information? 12 memo, though, that was created? If they are 13 How would they have obtained that information? 13 not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm 14 Do you know? 14 assuming they are not really supposed to be 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Like I said, 15 doing interviews. 16 I don't know who they spoke to during this 16 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, I don't know who 17 after action. 17 authorized them to come in and do the 18 MR. : Were they doing 18 investigation. I don't know. It was, you 19 interviews, though? 19 know, who set the parameters on it. I can't 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I wasn't there. 20 speak on that. 21 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And is it a normal for 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 them to do something like this, when there is 23 MR. : Were they authorized, 23 an actual FBI and OIG investigation? 24 though, if OIG and FBI are doing an 24 MR. N'DIAYE: We do after actions. So, I 25 investigation, is the after action team 25 don't know -. EFTA00064412 409 410 1 MR. But I mean, do they do 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2 after actions typically, when there is an open, 2 MR. : Upon finding Epstein. 3 criminal investigation, though? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Not typically. 4 MR. : Was it appropriate for 5 MR. : No? 5 him to immediately go into the cell? Or should 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't know. And 6 have he waited for staff to arrive on site? 7 again, I don't want to speculate. I don't know 7 MR. N'DIAYE: You should be -- 8 who authorized it. I don't know if they got 8 MR. : What? 9 permission from the department to come down and 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you're trained -- 10 do it. I don't want to -. 10 MR. : To go into the cell, I would 11 MR. : Sure. "August 10th, 11 think. 12 2019." So, this is the day of. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, you wait for enough 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 13 staff to get there, and a lieutenant, before 14 MR. : "6:33 a.m. A body alarm 14 you open that door. 15 is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU 15 MR. : Is that right? 16 staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 cell Z06-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this 17 MR. : In other words, suppose the 18 accurately. Staff entered the cell and 18 fucking guy is in seizure. 19 attempted to wake Epstein. Control center 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the flip side of it 20 announced a medical emergency, and 20 is, he coiiiiiiiiiiing -- 21 cardiopulmonary resuscitation," or CPR, "was 21 MR. : Remember -- 22 initiated." So, the question here is, I guess 22 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he could be feigning it. 23 I'll start with. Well, the information that we 23 MR. : -- we're in a prison. 24 have is Michael Thomas and Noel were there. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He could be feigning 25 Michael Thomas immediately went into the cell. 25 the suicide, and then come on and attack you. 411 412 1 And guess what? You're the only person there. 1 physician. And we've already addressed this. 2 Now, he has the keys for every range door on 2 My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he 3 that door. 3 show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. 4 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: And you can lose -- 5 MR. : "On August 10th, 2019, 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 the two assigned morning watch SHU officers 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you can lose the unit. 7 failed to make their designated rounds, or 8 MR. : Okay. Okay. 8 count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 9 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 9 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive 10 MR. : Yeah. Okay. I made a 10 in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his 11 mistake. 11 neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that wasn't -- 12 a call for assistance. The medical response to 13 MR. : That's the first time -- 13 the incident was timely, efficient, and 14 MR. : So, he did not. 14 exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as 15 MR. -- you make a notation, 15 a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS 16 (Indiscernible *04:48:23). 16 personnel." Are you aware of how - what 17 MR. : So, he didn't 17 information they obtained to say that the SHU 18 appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48:25)? 18 officers failed to make their designated rounds 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He didn't 19 or counts? 20 appropriate) 20 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. 21 MR. : And should have he known 21 MR. : No? And I just say this 22 that from his training experience? 22 because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Yeah. 23 of this information was provided from you to 24 MR. : "7:36 a.m., inmate 24 III, and III was providing it to whomever, that 25 Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room 25 were -- EFTA00064413 413 414 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 1 Additionally, the IDO reports consistently 2 MR. -- was doing this, 2 document the condition of SHU as satisfactory, 3 though. 3 when observations have shown the SHU to be less 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 than satisfactory." Do you have any comment on 5 MR. : So, I was assuming, in 5 that? Do you agree with that assessment? 6 drafting these questions, that a lot of this 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, I don't know what day 7 information came from you. 7 they went in there. Again, when these 8 MR. N'DIAYE: But I wasn't here when this 8 observations were done, I wasn't the warden in 9 was. 9 the institution. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 10 MR. : Okay. But prior to, when 11 think a lot of this stuff, though, was 11 you were the warden, do you know about the 12 provided, you know -- 12 institution duty officers not routinely 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 13 visiting the SHU each day as required? 14 MR. : -- during the email 14 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I didn't know about 15 review, those first couple of days. 15 that. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 16 MR. You didn't know about 17 MR. : So, that's why I'm asking 17 that. 18 these questions, is, like, do you know where 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't. I ensured 19 this information came from? 19 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 20 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I don't. 20 made sure the areas were clean. So. 21 MR. : No? 21 MR. : Okay. And what was their 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm-mm. 22 ultimate responsibility when they would visit 23 MR. : Okay. "Institution duty 23 the SHU? 24 officers do not routinely visit SHU each day, 24 MR. N'DIAYE: I guess same thing, to make 25 as required by the institution supplement. 25 rounds in the unit. Check on the inmates. 415 416 1 Make sure there are no issues. 1 at. 2 MR. : And is that, like you 2 MR. Now, why would, was 3 said, the idea was the guy that's on at night? 3 a reoccurring -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: That's the duty officer. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: What? 5 The institution duty officer. 5 MR. : -- 6 MR. : Always at night, though? 6 Was he a reoccurring -? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: They use - they typically 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No. The duty officers. 8 work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 12:00 to 9:00. 8 Like, sometimes can get it twice a year. 9 They cover the evening shift. 9 MR. : Oh, okay. 10 MR. : Because I thought it was 10 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't -. 11 explained to me, it was kind of, like, the 11 MR. But is it, like, a 12 person in charge when you are not here. 12 quarterly -- 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, yeah. But then, the 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, remember -- 14 other flip side of it go to the other shifts, 14 MR. -- submitted post type of 15 you know, the operations lieutenant is the CEO 15 thing? 16 in the absence of a warden. So -- 16 MR. N'DIAYE: -- remember, he is also, he 17 MR. : Okay. 17 is the duty officer, but he is also his unit 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the duty officer is just 18 manager. 19 the bridge to the executive staff. 19 MR. But was he -- 20 MR. : But they were actually 20 MR. N'DIAYE: So -. 21 supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds 21 MR. -- the consistent duty 22 every day? 22 officer? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: And then, again, I don't 23 MR. N'DIAYE: No, no, no, no. They 24 know if they were or were not. I don't know 24 rotate. 25 what they were, you know, what he was looking 25 MR. Every day? EFTA00064414 417 418 1 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Every week. 1 equivalent to. 2 MR. : Every week. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You have other ones, 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 every week. So -. 4 MR. : So, if you're looking at MR. : So, it goes between other 5 the military equivalent -- 6 unit managers? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Other unit managers. Other 7 MR. : Hey, man. 8 department heads. So, it kind of goes, you 8 MR. • -- it would be -- 9 know? 9 MR. I can't be too -- 10 MR. What is the grade -- 10 MR. : -- the general. 11 MR. : And do they -. 11 MR. : -- cheap. 12 MR. • -- level requirement? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. No. I can't 13 MR. N'DIAYE: The department heads. It's 13 afford that. I got kids. 14 usually ]Lathighgr. 14 MR. : Well, fuck. Why didn't -- 15 MR. IIIIIIIIII: 12 or higher. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: And some, like, maybe some 16 MR. : -- why didn't somebody tell me 17 GS-11s. Our trust fund supervisors. 17 that before? 18 MR. : What grade level are you? 18 MR. N'DIAYE: No, no, no. I got -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Huh? 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:52:52). 20 MR. : What level are you? 20 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: SES. 21 .ah.Yeah. 22 .RME Which means? 22 MR. : So, the highest level you 23 MR. : It's like a general. 23 can go to in the GS level is 15. And that is 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. A staff. 24 basically a full (Indiscernible *04:53:00) 25 MR. No. It's what it's 25 colonel in the military. SES is the general 419 420 1 level. So, don't -. He's being modest. 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Yeah. 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:53:45). 3 MR. .6always liked him anyway. 3 You know how, I always give law enforcement 4 MR. : I did not know. I 4 guys a big, you know, a discount. But I 5 thought, I assumed you were 15 since your AWs 5 didn't, he's fuck - he's a fucking 6 are 14s, though. 6 (Indiscernible *04:53:52) -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: No. But certain 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm (Indiscernible 8 institutions SESs. 8 *04:53:52) a discount. 9 MR. IIIIIIIIII: And MCC was one of those 9 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *04:53:54) 10 institutions? 10 couldn't afford him to pay. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: MCC is one. Your pre-trials 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Remember, I'm a federal 12 are 15s. Your penitentiaries. Your big lows. 12 employee. 13 Like, Fort Dix. Certain mediums. 13 MR. : Federal boys. It doesn't 14 MR. : And have you maintained? 14 matter if you're a general or not. 15 Are you still an SES now? 15 MR. N'DIAYE: We don't make any money. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 16 MR. : You're not making a lot 17 MR. : Okay. Since this time, 17 of money. 18 have you ever been demoted or anything like 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 that? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: But -. 20 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 20 MR. : Remember, I think the 21 MR. IIIIIIIIII: No. 21 president makes, what? 22 MR. : You know, man, I really -- 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: No. Just got -- 23 MR. : 250, and he's the 24 MR. : I really got (Indiscernible 24 MR. N'DIAYE: 400. 25 *04:53:45) for this guy. 25 MR. -- 400. EFTA00064415 421 422 1 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 1 whoever wiiiiiiiiiihat review. 2 MR. : Is it 400 now? 2 MR. : All right. "SHU has 3 MR. N'DIAYE: And the Vice President makes 3 multiple cells equipped with video recording 4 two somethin iiiiiiiiii 4 capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in 5 MR. : Yeah, yeah. No. That's S one of these cells. And there appears to be no 6 6 set guidance on when to utilize these cells." 7 MR. N'DIAYE: And never disciplined. When 7 So, you already said you didn't believe, like, 8 I was moved, never given a reason why I was 8 he should have been. 9 moved. Iiiiiiiiiiimoved. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: So -- 10 MR. : Okay. So, is the report 10 MR. : Is that correct? 11 also says that, "Psychology intake screening of 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- let me correct that. 12 Epstein contained errors in identifying 12 None of the cells, none of the cells that we 13 details, including that Epstein was referred to 13 had in SHU had cameras in the cells that were 14 as a black inmate, and by different inmate 14 being, working and being used. The only ones 15 names." 15 up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is Ten 16 MR. : Oh, no. You're kidding me. 16 South. 17 They said he was black? Hell, that was a 17 MR. Okay. So, no -- 18 mistake. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: So, they -- 19 MR. Do you know anything 19 MR. -- where else in the 20 about that? 20 institution -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know anything about 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- nowhere else in there had 22 that. 22 cameras in the cell. 23 MR. Would that be a 23 MR. : Hmm. 24 psychology issue? 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Ten South, we have it in the 25 MR. N'DIAYE: That is a psychology, 25 cells where you can see -- 423 424 1 MR. : That -- 1 MR. : -- this statement might 2 MR. : How about, like, Nine 2 actually associate Ten South as part of the 3 South lower, or something like that? Would 3 SHU. 4 they? Isn't that, like, the mini Ten South? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Because a lot of 5 MR. N'DIAYE: That's the - yeah that's 5 people that come in, when they first come in, 6 the -- 6 Ten South is part of there, actually part of 7 MR. Or G tier. 7 Nine South. We call it -. It's part of an 8 MR. N'DIAYE: G tier. 8 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 9 MR. That's not 9 have never been there, they don't 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 differentiate. 11 MR. -- what this is. 11 MR. : So, being that these are 12 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that -- 12 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 13 MR. Did they have cameras? 13 your response to them saying that there appears 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that did have recording 14 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 15 cameras in -- 15 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 16 MR. lust live cameras? 16 Was there guidance on that? 17 MR. N'DIAYE: -- in South, yeah. lust 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Ten South, like I 18 Nope. But then, we had no cameras on there 18 said, was_miiii2lly for the SAMs inmates. 19 that had live cameras in the South. 19 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, do you -- 20 MR. : Okay. So, only -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Ten South. 21 MR. : -- also believe that that 22 MR. : -- Ten South. 22 is an incorrect statement, then? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Only Ten South. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: If that's what they are 24 MR. : So -- 24 referring to, I do believe it is. 25 MR. So -. 25 MR. And you believe there was EFTA00064416 425 426 1 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? 1 brought out during the time, after 9/11, to 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Ten South is -- 2 house terrorists inmates. 3 MR. : For a single cell. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- is the one where we had 4 MR. : Have you ever heard anything 5 our cameras. 5 about the fact that no one was supposed to be 6 MR. : Okay. 6 housed up there anymore (Indiscernible 7 MR. Ekay. 7 *04:57:12)? 8 MR. : Because we had also been 8 MR. N'DIAYE: No. It's not -. It's not 9 informed that there were cells outside of Ten 9 to house terrorists' inmates. It's to house 10 South that had cameras in them, specifically I 10 inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, 11 think G tier. That's inaccurate? 11 the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them 12 MR. N'DIAYE: G tier. There is no 12 are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an 13 recording of inmates in those cells. 13 inmate housed for espionage. You know? And 14 MR. : Just live? 14 then -- 15 MR. N'DIAYE: And I don't even believe 15 MR. : Was it supposed to have been 16 live. I know the only ones we had was Ten 16 phased out due to PREA concerns? 17 South. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't -. I don't know 18 MR. : Okay. 18 anything about that. 19 MR. : We also heard that Ten South 19 MR. : Okay. 20 wasn't supped to be utilized anymore. It was 20 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 21 actually supposed to be phased out. 21 MR. : Okay. The next one is, 22 MR. N'DIAYE: It was supposed to be what? 22 the report also shows that, "A review was done 23 MR. : Phased out. 23 regarding the overtime conducted by the C.D.s 24 MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean phased out? 24 at the MCC, and the shortage of staff." It 25 MR. : He was actually brought up, 25 doesn't say much about it. Do you know what 427 428 1 the overall team's finding was? Do you agree 1 that? 2 that there was a shortage of staff? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: We all knew it was an abuse. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, there was. I mean -- 3 I mean, we -. We had even had conversations 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 with the IG about, you know, you're going to 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I'll give you an example. 5 the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So 6 We were short staffed. I was relieving 6 7 officers on their posts, and on some weekends, 7 MR. : So -- 8 I would come in and work a post. I mean -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- every -. 9 MR. : You, as the warden? 9 MR. : -- they were all using the 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- as the warden. I mean, 10 same doctor? 11 we had -. We were short. I mean -. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: The same doctor. But again, 12 MR. : Now, is there a -. Was 12 I understiiiiiiiiii agency is short. 13 there a way to rectify that issue? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: We could. I mean, hiring. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, so, we just had that 15 We had, I mean, 40 or 50 staff on OWCP 15 constant mitem. 16 (Phoneticiiiiiiiiii8:23). 16 MR. IIIII: That's, like -- 17 MR. : And can you explain what 17 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? 18 that is? 18 MR. : -- they use some of these -. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Workers compensation. 19 Some things, they use the same expert witnesses 20 MR. : Oh. And what was the 20 all the time. 21 percentage there, you said? 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. The hiring. We had 22 MR. N'DIAYE: About 40 or 50 staff on it. 22 a lot of department heads that we would use to 23 MR. : 40 or 50 staff. 23 cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. On there -. 24 would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to 25 MR. Did they seem to abuse 25 make do with what we had. EFTA00064417 429 430 1 MR. Now, was there, like, a 1 and it said, this is what you are getting, you 2 plan in place to try to get you guys up to 2 don't -. We need to work with what we've got. 3 proper staffing levels? 3 MR. : No, and I understand 4 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, we were working on 4 that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. 5 hiring. You know, and getting people in. But 5 But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, 6 it's a process. You know? To get somebody 6 covering Epstein in a lie *05:00:18), and 7 hired, it takes between six and eight months. 7 having such high-profile inmates. Was there - 8 MR. : And were there a number 8 do you think that there could have been 9 of people in the pipeline? 9 anything done better, though, by the BOP, to 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Not really. I mean, we went 10 make sure that your institution, specifically 11 out and did recruiting, because we were 11 MCC, was better staffed? 12 competing with other agencies. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: You could - so, let's go TDY 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 - we couldn't really, couldn't TDY to a point, 14 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? Other agencies 14 but then, there are other institutions around 15 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 15 the agency that were, you know, the staffing 16 You know? To get people on. So, it was just a 16 was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out 17 matter of, ou know, getting people on board. I 17 to help, you know? And then, it just brought 18 MR. : And do you think it could 18 down the finding. I mean, and getting people 19 have been handled better by some, in some way, 19 to clear your background. Not everybody can 20 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 20 clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we 21 MR. N'DIAYE: There's certain things we 21 can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a 22 don't control. Staffing. You know, the 22 job for y21._Flat an you pass the guidelines? 23 budget. We don't -. I don't -. We don't 23 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Mm-hmm. 24 control that. I mean, we can turn around and 24 MR. N'DIAYE: And a lot of time, do we 25 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, 25 know. 431 432 1 MR. All right. So, we're 1 apparent some SHU officers were aware. 2 literally less than half of a page left. 2 Although many people acknowledge this is an 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 important fact, ultimately, the final staff 4 MR. : But this next one is just 4 responsible for not - or did not ensure the 5 going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of 5 requirement was met, including vital 6 read it -- 6 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 7 a mass email does not ensure -." (Indiscernible 8 MR. : -- along with me because 8 *05:02:20) -- 9 it's so long. "He was also an inmate who had 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 risk factors for assault by other inmates, and 10 MR. : -- including vital 11 did require careful selection for appropriate 11 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 12 cellmates. Although these issues were noted, 12 a mass email does not ensure those who truly 13 well documented, and communicated, a failure 13 need that information do, in fact, receive it 14 still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be 14 timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was 15 placed in the cell alone. Although feasible 15 actually placed with a cellmate when removed 16 for an inmate to effectuate suicide while 16 from psychological -- 17 housed with a cellmate, the odds of this 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 18 occurring are significantly lowered when housed 18 MR. : -- observation. After 19 with another inmate." 19 that moment, it is clear there was no 20 The report continues. "It is apparent 20 additional written directive, or a fail safe 21 various staff at the institution made a point 21 system established, to ensure inmate Epstein -- 22 of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned 22 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 23 cellmate. The captain personally instructed 23 MR. : -- would have had a 24 the lieutenants, individually. A mass email 24 cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first 25 was distributed by psychology, and it is 25 and foremost, do you believe, probably the EFTA00064418 433 434 1 primary reason why Epstein was able to take his 1 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe 2 own life was because he didn't have a cellmate? 2 would have helped keep him alive today, if, you 3 On top of the fact that they weren't conducting 3 know, from the government perspective? 4 rounds in SHU? And counts. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, again, I'm going to 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't speak to the 5 just say, I can't say what would have kept him 6 mindset. Only I can speak to is, he killed 6 alive, but I will say, you know, if people made 7 himself. 7 their rounds, did their job, followed 8 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 8 instructions that they were given, then it 9 would it have certainly helped prevent his 9 might have -. Could have minimized what, you 10 death by one) having an inmate; and two) having 10 know -- 11 rounds and counts conducted? 11 MR. : The risk. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, if people did their job. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, what happened. 13 MR. : Right. 13 The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he 14 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? And -. 14 would have done it or not done it. If that 15 MR. : Like, obviously, if he 15 would haviiiiiiiiiihim. 16 killed himself, he did it. 16 MR. : Now, as far as this last 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment, 18 MR. : But the way that the 18 it is clear there was no additional written 19 government can better ensure that that doesn't 19 directive, or fail safe system established to 20 happen is by ensuring that, when it is mandated 20 ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate 21 that someone has a cellmate, they have a 21 going forward." What do you think could have 22 cellmate. 22 been done, and who should have done it? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: So, directives and the 24 MR. : And when they do their 24 information was conveyed to people verbally, 25 job, like you just said, they conduct rounds 25 documented on forms, on what you are supposed 435 436 1 to do. There was signs up. 1 done. 2 MR. : Now, what signs do you 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's somebody's 3 know that were up? 3 opinion. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: No, I mean, the one you read 4 MR. : Right. 5 to me, about the sign about doing the 30-minute 5 MR. N'DIAYE: You know? That's a Monday 6 checks. 6 morning quarterback that came in and make an 7 MR. : Oh, I think this is -- 7 opinion. I don't know what their ulterior 8 MR. N'DIAYE: So -. 8 motive is -- 9 MR. : -- specifically talking 9 MR. : Can you think of any -- 10 about the cellmate requirement. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- for making it. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, (Indiscernible 11 MR. : -- anything that wasn't 12 *05:05:02) cellmate requirement. It was put 12 done? Can you think of anything, like, oh, if 13 out by the captain. Directives were given. 13 this could have helped, or maybe he should have 14 Staff was spoken to. You know, it's kind of 14 done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. 15 boiled down to people not doing their job. I 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't think of anything 16 mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, 16 they should have done. 17 it's given to you in writing, what more do we 17 MR. : No. Okay. 18 have to do? 18 MR. ran I ask? 19 MR. : Well, that's kind of my 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 20 question, because the BOP is the one who wrote 20 MR. : I know it's bound to - based 21 that finding. So, I'm curious myself -- 21 on once everything comes up, these are 22 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, that's -- 22 questions that they're going to have. So, I 23 MR. : -- what you think -- 23 got to ask. I know you mentioned that you 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I mean -- 24 couldn't have secondary selection. Like, 25 MR. -- that could have been 25 another replacement for because inmates EFTA00064419 437 438 1 keep moving. But is it possible that a list 1 they went to court, they didn't come back, they 2 should have been created? That, you know, 2 were transferred, things like this. 3 should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, 3 MR. : Like, that's what they list 4 if ever gets removed, here is a list of 4 as a fail safe. Like -- 5 maybe possible five inmates that you could 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. I mean -- 6 choose from? 6 MR. : -- as a precautionary 7 MR. N'DIAYE: But I mean, under, you know, 7 measure. 8 different inmates, we can do that, but he was a 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it could have been, but 9 high-profile inmate that -- 9 then it would have still been based on who was 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 there that da at the time. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I would have had to get 11 MR. : And that's why I think 12 that name and run it up to the department, to 12 he's saying, like, a list of five people versus 13 see if it was okay. it wasn't just him. I was 13 one or two. So, if this person is not -- 14 going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you 14 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't -- 15 to, you know, we're going to put this guy -. I 15 MR. : -- there, what about this 16 was, just like with the other ones, sent up to 16 one? That one is not there, either. But maybe 17 the department. So, again, it would have been 17 this guy. You know, that type of thing. Or 18 based on who was there. 18 did you -- 19 MR. : And because -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I just -- 20 MR. N'DIAYE: If that. 20 MR. : -- just stand by a hunch? 21 MR. : -- because of that 21 MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. I just, I just 22 extreme detail that had to go into selection, I 22 feel, liqs_y_gu know -- 23 think what is asking you is, should have 23 MR. IIIII: Don't know. 24 there been a list of names that the higher ups 24 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it was, I can't, no. I 25 signed off on, in case someone was removed, 25 mean -- 439 440 1 MR. Mm-hmm. 1 mean by this? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- again, I'm operating in 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. But -- 3 hindsight III22fla at the time -- 3 MR. : And what are some things 4 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. 4 that could have been done? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, that's what was 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but those are individuals 6 done. 6 that are coming in, looking at a situation, 7 MR...eah, we know you do. 7 that wereiiiiiiiiii involved in it. 8 MR. : Yeah. And we are 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 absolutely asking you to operate in hindsight. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, they weren't the 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 10 ones that were told, hey, okay, I'm talking to 11 MR. : Saying, like -- 11 my boss, and it's going all the way up to the 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 12 department. That wasn't -. That wasn't privy 13 MR. : -- Monday morning 13 to them. 14 quarterbacking -- 14 MR. Mm-hmm. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: That was a need to know 16 MR. : -- yourself and your own 16 basis. 17 institution, I get it. But, like, Monday 17 MR. : But unfortunately, everyone 18 morning quarterbacking this situation -- 18 is who going to eventually look at this case -- 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 20 MR. : -- what do you think 20 MR. : -- is going to be doing the 21 they, you know, they are referring to this as 21 same exact thing as they are. 22 the BOP, and we are not the experts. 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. But what I'm saying is, 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 23 if we're looking at assessing the situation on 24 MR. : We're coming in. But BOP 24 what happened in real time, that's what I'm 25 is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they 25 talking about. So, in real time, now, if they EFTA00064420 441 442 1 had known that, hey, you know what? These 1 Just because the warden is not there doesn't 2 names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at 2 mean the institution doesn't run. That's why 3 the same time, maybe it would have been a 3 you have, you know, people acting on your 4 different thou process. 4 behalf. You know? That could make -- 5 MR. : And was it possible - and 5 MR. : So, maybe -- 6 maybe you discussed this - was it possible 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- those decisions. 7 that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have 7 MR. : -- maybe, what 8 replaced -? Did they have the ability to 8 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 9 replace , if they wanted to, or did they 9 it sounds like you would have to go over your 10 have to come up the chain of command, for the 10 head to even make that decision, has to go to 11 chain of command to tell them who the new 11 the regional director level, would the 12 inmate -? 12 associate warden have the ability to go to the 13 MR. N'DIAYE: They were instructed, hey, 13 regional director, or would have they known to 14 let us know when - where he's to have a 14 go to the regional director? 15 cellmate at all time - and to notify, let 15 MR. N'DIAYE: So, let's say that did 16 someone know. Because again, due to the 16 happen, rigtql__Ity would have -- 17 individual that he was, you just don't want to 17 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Well, it did happen. 18 throw any, 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, I'm saying, as far as 19 MR. : Okay. But doesn't that kind 19 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 20 of hinder them from taking action? Let's say, 20 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 21 at that point on thatiiiiiiyou are not in the 21 working. 22 institution, Captain was there, I 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 understand. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Because I got the government 24 MR. N'DIAYE: There was an acting warden 24 phone. And they're going to call me and tell 25 there. You had the executive staff there. 25 me, hey, this is what we got going on. He 443 444 1 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, 1 me. 2 okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it 2 MR. : Okay. 3 up. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So, it was not, like, I'm 4 MR. : So, basically, you were 4 off on paper. Because I am using my leave. 5 always available. Someone was always 5 But I'm still on duty because you can call me 6 available, that if the proper notification was 6 on my phone. 7 being made, up the chain of command -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 MR. : -- a newer inmate could have 9 MR. My last two questions. 10 been assigned. 10 Based on our conversation, and after this -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: That's why I carried it. 11 MR. : Thank God. 12 That's why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23). 12 MR. -- based on your 13 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, 13 conversations, and this after-action report 14 even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an 14 that we just reviewed those topics, what are 15 issue, anioiiiency, I'm called. Yeah. 15 the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to 16 MR. : Okay. And if someone does 16 die? 17 ask, should the SHU officers have been given 17 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm not -. I mean, that's - 18 the ability? Your answer to that would have 18 . I think -. I can't -. That's -. You know, 19 been, you have that phone with you, someone 19 like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm 20 should have made that notification. So -- 20 giving personal o inions. I'm not -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 21 MR. : Again, and I'm not asking 22 MR. : -- someone in the higher -- 22 you to say why he killed himself. 23 MR. N'DIAYE: And they -- 23 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 24 MR. : -- of command. 24 MR. : Or if he could have. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and they would contact 25 What I'm saying is, what are the failures of EFTA00064421 445 446 1 the BOP? 1 there's still an investigation going on. So, I 2 MR. : He killed himself because he 2 don't want to sit here and speculate -- 3 ain't stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, 3 MR. : No, but we are the ones - 4 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in 4 5 prison. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and say -- 6 MR. : Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - 6 MR. : -- doing the 7 7 investigation, and -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- right. 9 MR. : -- and I'm not, 9 MR. : -- you are the leader of 10 absolutel not asking -- 10 the organization that, you know, of the place. 11 MR. : No. 11 That's why this is a very relevant question for 12 MR. : -- as far as what is his 12 you to answer because -- 13 mental state, and could have he had the ability 13 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 14 14 MR. : -- you know, this was the 15 MR. N'DIAYE: But I can't -- 15 facility that you oversaw. 16 MR. : -- but are the failures, 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So -- 17 as you see them, after we reviewed all this, 17 MR. : So, we're just -. All 18 that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, 18 I'm simply asking is, what do you think the 19 in this instance? Unless you don't think that 19 problems are, as you see them? After you just 20 they did anything wrong. 20 heard everything we just talked about for, it 21 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I'm not saying they did 21 seems like the last five hours. 22 anything wrong. But again, these are things 22 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, if we would 23 that you are going to find. I mean, right now, 23 talk - I mean, you're not counting. You didn't 24 I can look at it and say, we're looking at 24 make your rounds in that unit, to check on an 25 people not making rounds and all that. But 25 inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics 447 448 1 right there. 1 MR. -- do your job. Get 2 MR. Okay. 2 3 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, we can talk about 3 MR. 99 times out of a 100, it 4 all the other stuff, but the basic is, you did 4 wouldn't have ha ened. 5 not go and make those rounds. 5 MR. Right. So -- 6 MR. : And would you also, 6 MR. : You know, it's -. 7 though, add to that the fact that they didn't 7 MR. -- but in this case, it 8 replace 8 does seem, like, a lot of this was a result of 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 9 - like you keep on saying - people not doing 10 MR. -- like they wer supposed 10 their jobs. 11 to? 11 MR. : lobs. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: But I mean 13 MR. : Okay. What actions could 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 the BOP have taken to possibly prevent 14 MR. N'DIAYE: -- but in all fairness, 15 Epstein's death? 15 we've had, since Epstein died, and before, 16 MR. : It doesn't sound like -- 16 we've had almost 60 suicides. So, it's the 17 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 same reociiiiiiiiiieme. 18 MR. -- still, you were nervous. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Totally. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, people not making 20 MR. : That's all. I mean, you could 20 their rounds and doing what they're supposed to 21 have -- 21 do. 22 MR. It just, it sounds like 22 MR. : And is that the same 23 they quote, the answer would be, conduct your 23 thing that's happening with them, they're not 24 rounds, conduct your counts. Get a -- 24 doing their rounds or counts? 25 MR. N'DIAYE: Do your job. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, and nine times out EFTA00064422 449 450 1 of ten, every time you look into something, it 1 MR. N'DIAYE: As far as what? This 2 is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not 2 situation? 3 counting, you know? So, it's the normal 3 MR. : Yeah. lust anything that 4 things. 4 you feel, like, oh, you know, like, I should 5 MR. : Are these other 5 have done this better, or I could have done 6 instances, where we find out that they didn't 6 this better. That type of thing. 7 have cellmates? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Single cell. You know, I 8 MR. : Just for the record, let 9 mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you 9 me just -- 10 look at it, and you look at the numbers of 10 MR. N'DIAYE: I can't think of anything 11 single cell inmates. But there is instances 11 for that. 12 where, you know, sometimes you do have to put 12 MR. -- okay. Anything else 13 somebody in a cell single. 13 you have? 14 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: But, you know, there is 15 MR. That's it? 16 other suicides, and they don't stop. You know? 16 MR. : Anything that -- 17 Some of it is, you know, staff had no control 17 MR. Jesus Christ. 18 over it, and some staff had control over it. 18 MR. -- you wanted to add to 19 MR. : And I do apologize. I 19 anything, Warden, anything that -- 20 said that was the last question, but I guess I 20 MR. : I didn't know if you said -- 21 should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking 21 MR. -- we missed, or you want 22 yourself, is there anything that you should 22 to -? 23 have done differently? 23 MR. : -- generally. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: Hmm. 24 MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. That's it. 25 MR. : As the MCC warden? 25 MR. : Is there anything you think 451 452 1 we missed asking about? 1 MR. -- the recording is 2 MR. : Don't ask him that. 2 showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Not that I can think of. 3 So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is 4 MR. : You have a right to remain 4 currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 5 silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, S 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 6 listen, you know? 6 , and I am turning off the recorder. 7 MR. : Yeah. No. We got you. 7 8 MR. : Like, I was impressed that you 8 9 did that. He couldn't go through this. I 9 10 would have been to the bathroom, like, I got to 10 11 do this, I got to do this. I mean, I got to 11 12 make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He 12 13 just sat there and answered all the questions. 13 14 I mean, he's not -- 14 15 MR. Yeah. 15 16 MR. • -- even sweating under his 16 17 armpits. 17 18 MR. And thank you very much - 18 19 19 20 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 20 21 MR. -- for your cooperation - 21 22 22 23 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I appreciate -- 23 24 MR. Especially -- 24 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you guys. 25 EFTA00064423 4) 3 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of LAMINE N'DIAYE , Transcriber EFTA00064424