EFTA00090036

5/4/2021 9:05 AM UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK x • • • • X Date: Time: Participants: EFTA00090036 1 1 [II]: [II]: Hey there. 2 .]: - you- he's four and a half months. Say hi, come on, say hi 3 to her. [U/I) 4 [II]: Hi, hello. Hello. 5 [II]: Say hi, get your baby. 6 [II]: Hello. [II]: On (U/I) 7 [II]: Hello. 8 [II]: Say hi. Say hi. Get your baby. (U/I) baby. 9 [II]: Oh, look at you guys. 10 [II]: Say hi. Okay. Okay. Would you like some water? 11 [UM1): No thanks. III): I'm good, thank you. 12 [II]: Happy to help in any way I possibly can. 13 [II]: No, you're- you've been more than gracious already, and I thank 14 you for your time. 15 [II]: Oh, you're welcome. 16 [II]: Do you mind if we sit down? [II]: No, please that's- do you want one of those? I could get another 17 chair if you want to sit there. 18 (UM1): [U/I) 19 [II]: They are good lookin' dogs. That's nice. 20 [II]: Yeah, they're sweet. 21 [II]: Good for them. Okay, um, you're probably under some time constraints. 22 [II]: I have an hour. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Yeah. But I have a little less than an hour because I have to 25 walk my dogs. EFTA00090037 2 1 CUM1): Okay. [II]: (U/I) not coming until 4:45. 2 [II]: Well then, we will try to get this done as- 3 [II]: Okay. 4 - quickly as we can and then if not, we can always reschedule. 5 I'll (U/I1 6 [II]: Are you recording this? [II]: I am, is that okay? 7 [II]: Yes, go for it. 8 [II]: Okay. Alright, let me get this all set up. So, I'm Special Agent 9 This ism. 10 [II]: Okay. 11 [II]: Uh, you can call me III): Okay. 12 III): You're fine as far as that goes. Um, you are not in any trouble, 13 uh- 14 (II]: No, I know. 15 [II]: You- I'm sure you already kinda have an idea in terms of what 16 we're looking, uh, into and things like that, but just, uh, for clarity's sake, we are looking into some things that went on at 17 Zorro Ranch, here in New Mexico. Uh, we've been given some 18 information that you might be familiar with the ranch and with 19 Jeff Epstein- Epstein. Uh- 20 [II]: (U/I1 starting to watch (U/I) 21 [II]: - and maybe some of the other people, so, we wanted to talk to you about it. Um, you're under no obligation to talk to us. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: Uh, you can kick us out if you want to kick us out. Uh, we don't 24 plan on yelling or whatever it is that they do on TV, we plan on 25 being incredibly nice. EFTA00090038 3 II): Okay. II): So, uh, as long as you don't try to hit one of us, I think we'll 2 all- 3 [II): You won't have a problem. 4 [II]: - I think we'll all just be okay. 5 [II]: Not at all. 6 [II]: Okay, so- [II]: Happy to help. 7 [II]: We'll start off with the easy questions, and I know you're 8 pressed for time, so we'll probably segue into some pretty direct 9 questions after that. 10 [II]: Okay. 11 [II]: Usually it- we spend more time, uh, but don't take offense to it if we just kinda jump forward. 12 [II]: That's fine. 13 [II]: Uh- 14 [II]: I'll do my best to answer it however I can. 15 [II]: Okay. So, what is your full name? 16 [M]: I don't need to (U/I] [II]: And what's your date of birth? 17 [M]: 18 [II]: And how old are you right now, if you don't mind me asking? 19 [III: Oh, III 20 [II]: Okay. And where do you live? 21 [U] I live in [II]: What's your address? 22 [a]: excuse me. 23 [II]: Okay. And I've got a phone number for you: 24 [II]: That's business, yes. 25 [II]: Okay. Is that a good number to contact you at? EFTA00090039 4 II): Yeah, or my cell that I called you at. II): Okay. And, despite the fact that we're sitting here, how are you 2 employed? 3 [II]: I'm a therapist. So, I've been a therapist for twenty-four years 4 and do reflexology very rarely, but that's what I did at Zorro 5 Ranch since, uh- for thirty-five years. Since 1984. 6 [II]: So, reflexology for thirty-four years? [II]: Thirty-five. 7 [II]: Thirty-five years. 8 [II]: Twenty-four years as a psychotherapist. 9 [II]: Okay. Well, you seem to be a jack of all trades. You can fix my 10 mind and my body. 11 (III: Well, I mostly do this. I do this very rarely, but sure, people who have neuropathy, recently, otherwise it's a storage table. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: Yeah. 14 [II]: And just so you know, we'll take notes while you're talking. 15 [II]: That's fine. 16 [II]: It always looks really rude, `cause I'm not looking at you while you're talking but- 17 (III: I do that with my- 18 [II]: Yeah. 19 [II]: - with my counseling clients- 20 [II]: Okay. 21 [II]: - I get it. [II]: I just- 22 [II]: No, no, I understand completely. 23 [II]: - I don't want to come across that way, so. Okay, uh, so, 24 therapist for twenty-four years, reflexology for thirty-four 25 years. EFTA00090040 5 1 [II]: Thirty-five. [II]: Thirty-five. Sorry. 2 [II]: So, 1985- or 84, uh, started reflexology back in and 3 then, um, I've been out here since and then I've been a 4 therapist since 5 [II]: What part of 6 [II]: Uh, [II]: I was born in 7 [II]: You were? 8 [II]: I was. 9 [II]: My family moved to 10 [II]: Nice. My family moved to 11 [II]: Did they? [III: Yeah. Okay, uh, what- what qualifications do you have to be a 12 therapist and to be a reflexologist? 13 [II]: Well, I got cer- as a reflexologist, I got certified through the 14 National Institute of Reflexology and then, uh, through, uh, 15 and then I went over to England and 16 started (U/I] with (U/I]. Um, he founded the College of Reflexology in London, or n- outside of London. And then I kinda 17 (U/I] him for about three weeks- 18 [II - 5:04]: Okay. 19 [II]: - while I was getting license certification. 20 [II]: Okay. 21 [II]: And here, I've a masters in, uh, excuse me- I'm an LPCC, which is a licensed professional clinical counselor. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: And that makes you a psychotherapist. I can't, um, diagnose. 24 Excuse me, I can diagnose, but I can't prescribe meds. 25 (II): Okay. EFTA00090041 1 [II]: Yeah. And this is my passion. [II]: Is it? 2 [II]: Yeah. Oh, I love it. 3 [II]: Good. Good for you. I may come see you at some point. 4 [II]: Yeah, solution, focus-based therapist. 5 III]: Good. Alright, um, for the most part, that's the background that 6 I wanna go over, so now we'll kinda jump into some of the other stuff, again, just `cause you're kinda pressed for time. Um, you 7 know that we're looking into Zorro Ranch and Jeff Epstein. Can 8 you tell us how you're familiar- how you're familiar with, uh, 9 Jeff and what the- and what the ranch- 10 [II]: I was introduced to go over there as a reflexologist by a woman 11 namedI , you probably have her information, too. III): Yeah. 12 [III: She was, I think, a massage therapist for them. She was also a 13 peer, she's a colleague, she's, uh, also a psychotherapist. I 14 think she's recently retired, but I'm not sure, so I can't speak 15 for her. I haven't talked to her ear-to-ear, but she's the one 16 who said, "would you like to do reflexology? I [U/I] clients that- if you'd like that." 17 [II): Okay. 18 [II]: So, that's how I originally was introduced to Zorro Ranch. 19 [II]: Okay. Was she employed there? 20 III]: She- I mean, she worked for them whenever they hired her for a 21 massage. [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: I don't- I can't really speak, `cause I don't know. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 III]: I mean, she was working for them and then she- they want- 25 Ghislaine Maxwell wanted her feet worked on and so, I'm the EFTA00090042 7 1 reflexologist that they hired. [II]: Okay. 2 [II]: Yeah. 3 [II]: Ghislaine Maxwell? 4 [II]: Right. 5 [II]: What year was that? 6 [II]: I think the first, uh, first treatment was probably in 1999. And the last one was in 2008 when I- 7 [II]: Hey, sweetheart. 8 [II]: Irvin come on sweetie, go lie down. Sorry. I don't want him to 9 g- 10 IUM1): No, no. 11 III): Goof your pants up. III): No, you're okay. 12 [III: I'll put him on a leash. 13 [II]: You're okay. I have dogs. I'm pretty sure you- do you- 14 IUM1]: I do. 15 (II]: Yes. 16 [II]: Yeah. [II]: Yeah, we'll be okay. We'll survive it. 17 [II]: Good. 18 [II]: Okay, so, I'm sorry, in 1999? 19 (II]: I think was the very first treatment, I mean, I- I didn't do it 20 regularly, but I- whenever they came into town, or I'd- actually, 21 it was Ghislaine that I worked on mostly. [II]: Okay. 22 III]: So, Jeffrey, I think I, I'd have to look at my records, but 23 Jeffrey, I worked probably three times on from `99 to 2008. 24 [II]: Okay. 25 [II]: I hardly ever saw the man. Okay. EFTA00090043 8 1 [II]: Okay, so we're lookin' on and off from '99 to '08. [II]: Correct. 2 [II]: Okay. And you worked in- on Ghislaine mostly- 3 [III: A 1- 4 ICW): - uh, but Jeff sometimes? 5 III): It's- no, I'm talking- I mean, like, Jeff, maybe three times in 6 all those years. I don't know if it's two times, three times, but that was it. He was hardly ever there. 7 [II]: Okay. 8 [Il] : Yeah. 9 [II]: And you said- 10 [II]: If he was there, then I- I didn't see him. 11 [II]: Okay. And you said that you have records for all of that stuff? [II]: I mean, in my invoice. When I say- 12 [II]: Invoicing- 13 [II]: Invoices, yeah. 14 [II]: Okay. Who would you invoice? 15 [II]: Zorro Ranch. 16 [II]: Zorro Ranch. [II]: And I don't remember the name of the c- the housekeepers at the 17 time. But then, so- I don't know what you want me- I'm just going 18 to wait until you ask me questions versus just telling you my 19 experience. Would that be better? 20 [II]: If y- if you feel like there's something important that you need 21 to say, you say it, what- I'm really linear, so, I'll- I'll make sure that, if we start to get off track, we'll come back on 22 track. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 And again, I don't mean it in a rude way, we're just pressed for 25 time. EFTA00090044 9 1 [II]: No, that's fine. [II]: So, go ahead, please. 2 [II]: So, all I was gonna say is, I would go there and since I live in 3 they would- um, she would want a treatment at 4 nighttime, so I would drive- I would do that work at night after 5 I finished my work here. Then I would go and I would wait in the 6 kitchen until the housekeepers, and again, I don't remember their names, but, they would- I'd wait in the kitchen and then they 7 would call me into the- into the library, whatever you call it, 8 and then Ghislaine would come in and I'd work on her feet there. 9 [II]: Okay. H- how were Jeff and Ghislaine related, if at all? 10 [II]: Companions, or- 11 [II]: Companions. [II]: I don't really know the intimacy details but my understanding, 12 back then, I think that they'd been together for thirteen years, 13 or whatever, and I think she sort of presented that she- she 14 would manage his properties, but I think that they had a 15 relationship, but I don't really know the details because that's 16 not a part of my business. [II]: Okay. So- 17 [II]: I mean, I never saw them where they were in any- 18 III]: Together-together. 19 [II]: Yeah, together. 20 [II]: In any sort of- 21 [II]: Yeah, obvious way. [II]: I guess romantic way- 22 [III]: Right, exactly. 23 [II]: Or obvious way. Sure. How many times would you say, and it 24 doesn't have to be exact, how many times would you say you were 25 out at the ranch between '99 and '08? EFTA00090045 10 1 [II]: Uh, I'm guessing. (U/I] um- [II]: Sure. 2 [II]: Maybe thirty? In nine years. 3 (II]: As far as that invoicing goes, `cause that might help us narrow 4 that down a little bit or get a little bit more exact, would you 5 have any problem turning that stuff over to us at some point? 6 [II]: No, I mean, I- [II]: Not the originals, obviously. 7 [II]: Right. 8 [II]: Like, copies. 9 [II]: I mean, I can give you information from it. 10 [II]: Yeah. 11 [II]: Yeah. (II): Okay. Would you- would you do that? 12 (II- 10:001: But what I would do- what I would do in an invoice, is 13 would- would say, "reflexology session- Ghislaine," and so if 14 went back and looked, I would see Jeffrey was in there. Like- 15 III): Okay. 16 [II]: -like, it'd be, "reflexology for thirty-five min- uh, forty-five minutes," to Jeffrey, and Ghislaine it could have been two hours. 17 (II]: Okay. 18 Yeah. 19 (II]: Would you put something like that together for us? I mean, it 20 doesn't have to be today or anything, but maybe just like a- 21 [II]: I'll write something up. [II]: - like a list or a spreadsheet- 22 [II]: Sure, yeah. 23 [II]: - or something like that. 24 [II]: I can write it up and just give you the dates or how many times I 25 worked on them. EFTA00090046 11 1 [II]: Okay. [II]: Is that what you'd like? Like- 2 [.]: Yeah. 3 [II]: - how many times I worked on Jeffrey, and how many times- 4 III]: Yeah. That w- yeah- 5 [II]: - I worked on Ghislaine. That's fine? 6 [II]: - yeah, dates, dates and how many- and- and who it was that you saw that day. 7 [II]: Okay. Sure. 8 [II]: Did you ever, uh, do any other work out there? 9 [II]: No. 10 [II]: Did you ever work on anybody else while you were out there? 11 [II]: No. No. III): Okay. 12 III]: The only thing that I remember doing, and you have to bear with 13 me because I had a car accident, but it was back in 2000, but so, 14 it affects my memory a little bit, but, that's why I have to 15 refer to- to, like, looking at invoices, but, um, there was one- 16 one time when I worked on Jeffrey, he asked one of his massage therapists to come down and have me teach him- her how to do 17 reflexology. 18 [II]: Do you remember who that was? 19 [II]: So, she would sit- no, no idea. Who the name was or anything. So 20 she came down and pulled up a chair and I'm telling her how to 21 do- it- do a session, which isn't really teaching very much in that- 22 [II]: (Laughter] 23 [II]: - He liked my work. When I did it, again, I only worked on him a 24 few times, but it was very professional. 25 (II]: Okay. EFTA00090047 12 II): Yeah. II): And you said that your sessions typically lasted an hour? Is that 2 right? 3 [II]: Oh, I mean, it's whatever they- however people want it, but 4 usually it's an hour, but sometimes she'd want extra time, 5 Ghislaine would want extra time, so, like, an hour, hour and a 6 half. [II]: Okay. Would you say on average it's about an hour? 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: Okay. 9 [II]: I mean, that's normally what my treatments are in general, but 10 when people want, like, I have people coming in in a few weeks 11 here, so, (U/II when they say, "can we have an hour and a half," it's (U/I). 12 tll): Okay. 13 [II]: But that's pretty rare. 14 [II]: Okay. And you said that you would drive yourself there? Is that 15 right? 16 [II]: Yes. [II]: And you would drive yourself back? 17 [II]: Oh, yeah. 18 [II): And it was typically during the evening hours? 19 [II]: Evening. Late at night. 20 [II): What time are we talkin'? 21 [II]: It could be- I mean, `cause I work here usually `till seven, so- [II]: Sure. 22 [II]: - I may not get there `till eight or nine. Wasn't like I was 23 there `till midnight, but I would work- it would depend, and 24 sometimes, if I was asked to (U/I) I would. 25 (III: Okay. What- and I know it's a big house, uh- uh- EFTA00090048 13 1 III]: And I never saw- all I saw was the kitchen and the- the, I saw the kitchen and then the, I guess, for lack of better words, the, 2 uh, off the kitchen, like a, not a maid's quarters, but I'd be 3 asked to sit there and wait, `cause I wasn't allowed in the rest 4 of the house. 5 Okay. 6 So, I'm sorry, I'm looking mostly at You're fine. 7 You're okay. 8 Um, so, I would be- I'd have to sit and wait until she was ready, 9 when she was finished dinner or if they had guests or whatever, I 10 would have to wait. I would- sometimes it would be a long wait, 11 but not often, they were pretty respect- she was pretty respectful. But I would wait there and then the housekeepers 12 would just ask me if- "do you want some water," and then they 13 would lead me into the room. I always worked- maybe there was one 14 time I worked on her in her- in her bedroom, not one time that I 15 work on her in her bedroom, but I mostly worked in the library or 16 whatever you want to call it, right off the kitchen. So I never saw the rest of the fifty-thousand square-foot house. 17 [II]: Well, you- we- we may have never seen you again. 18 [II]: Yeah. 19 [II]: You may have got lost. 20 [II]: I know. They needed a walkie-talkie. 21 [II]: Okay, so- [II]: But the housekeepers were lovely and everybody was nice to me. 22 [II]: Okay. So we're lookin' at the library off of the kitchen and 23 maybe one time in the bedroom? 24 [II]: More- probably more- more than one time, it was dependent upon 25 how she was feeling. So that was it. So, I would be escorted EFTA00090049 14 1 upstairs to her bedroom, never saw him, and then- but most of the time it was downstairs right off the kitchen going into this 2 library-study area, and then I- she got on- on a couch and I 3 would sit on the couch and work on her feet. 4 [II): Okay. 5 III): Yeah. So I can't say- it was definitely more than once in her 6 bedroom, but- okay. 7 [Ilj: It was mostly in that library. 8 [II): And you're referring to it as her bedroom, was it only her 9 bedroom? 10 [II): I mean, that's all- 11 [III: As far as you know? [III: - I know. Yeah. 12 [II): Yeah. 13 [II): That's all I know. I don't know what else happens. 14 [II): Okay. The times that you were there, it sounds like there was one 15 time where you were kind of training a massage therapist. Uh, did 16 anybody else ever sit in in the sessions, talk to Ghislaine or to Jeff while they were being worked on, or anything like that? 17 (II): No. 18 [II): Okay. So, for the most part- 19 [III: (U/I) 20 [II): You guys had a fairly exclusive relationship. 21 [II): That's right. [II): Okay. Um, just between gettin' your hair cut or gettin' 22 reflexology done, or something like that, typically, uh, at least 23 for me, like, I end up engaging in quite a bit of conversation. I 24 imagine that you engaged in quite a bit of conversation over '99 25 to '08. What were those conversations like? EFTA00090050 15 1 [IV Uh, I mean, they- they would talk to me about my work, to talk about, uh, she had a place in New York. Um, there was nothing- I 2 know what you're- I think I know what you're leading up to, I 3 don't- I never witnessed- I can just jump in, I never witnessed 4 any of the things that Jeffrey is being accused of. 5 [II - 15:15): Sure. 6 [II]: That I never saw. There was only one time that I was there when his other- they were being driven from the airport or a 7 helicopter and I was waiting in that room off the kitchen, where 8 then they arrived as I'm waiting for Ghislaine, to work on 9 Ghislaine, and there were, uh, several young women, that were 10 girls, that would be there, and I was only- I don't know if 11 told me or- or, uh, Ghislaine told me that they were, uh, working for the Limited or Victoria's Secret or they were just younger 12 girls of who they- that they- I never talked to them, like, they 13 never- I was never introduced to them, like, "this is the 14 reflexologist," except for that one woman who was his massage 15 therapist. But that's the only time I saw- saw, um, young women. 16 [II]: Okay. And you said [II]: I never know where- what they did or where they went or anything. 17 [II]: Okay. 18 [II]: I just was sitting there, they arrived in the space I was in, 19 then they walked- then they were escorted somewhere else that 20 I'm- waiting to be called back to work on Ghislaine's feet. 21 [II]: Okay. You said who's-? [II]: The- the woman who introduced me to- 22 [II]: Oh, 23 [II]: - (U/I) yeah, yeah. 24 [II]: Okay. 25 [II]: So, I really didn't know the- there's not a lot of questions EFTA00090051 16 1 because of her- who she is, I mean, `cause you obviously know who she- 2 [II]: Sure. 3 [II]: - is in the background. I just did my work and I left. Some- 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II]: I wasn't- I'm very professional, so, I went in, worked on her 6 feet and she- and she might chat about- she always wanted me to tell her stories about my counseling clients. Not, like, any 7 breaking any confidentiality- 8 [II]: Sure. 9 [II]: - but she would just be sorta fascinated, like, "tell me a story 10 of what you work on," or- 11 (II): Okay. (ll): - "what kind of- what kind of work you do with couples," or- 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: - that's s- that's about it. 14 [II]: Okay. This time where, uh, these people arrived from this plane 15 or helicopter- 16 [III]: Right. [II]: Um, you said that they were driven in. Do you know who drove 17 them? 18 [II]: Oh, I don't know if it was driven. I just know- I remember that 19 Ghislaine, I think, had a helicopter license, so I don't know if 20 they came in a helicopter, but I don't think that many people can 21 fit in a helicopter, but I'm guessing that it's- I'd say- I still have no idea what airport they came from. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: Yeah. 24 [II]: Okay. Do you know- 25 [II]: Again, I never spoke to them. I just looked up, saw these people EFTA00090052 17 1 and some other- what- it- it- it was a chauffeur or a driver- the housekeeper, `cause there were- again, I can't remember, it was 2 so long ago. But whoever the housekeepers were, who had managed 3 their world, somebody went and picked them- picked them all up. 4 So, it wasn't like they arrived and I saw Jeffrey come in. It was 5 the- these young women and then other- adult- 6 [II): Okay. [II]: - who had brought them, who I think was the driver or who worked 7 for- who was one of their staff. 8 [III: Okay. When you say, "young," so, we've kinda gone back and forth 9 between young women and girls. What would you estimate their age 10 to be? And again- 11 (II): So, this is a guesstimate. (II): - it doesn't have to be specific. Sure. 12 (II): So, I mean, certainly, uh, I'm looking at- I'm- again, it's hard 13 as you get older to judge, but- 14 [III: Sure. 15 [II]: - I'm saying probably, uh, like, eighteen or under. 16 [II]: Eighteen and under. [II]: But I never saw- I- `cause I've been watching the news, I never 17 saw someone who looked fourteen or fifteen. But again, I don't- 18 back then, I didn't- but they were just young, attractive girls. 19 [II]: Sure. How were they dressed? 20 [II]: Like, I mean, I didn't really, like- it wasn't, like, in any 21 suggestive way, they were just dressed, like, in a normal- [II]: Like, normal way? 22 [II]: Like I'm dressed right now. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 III]: Yeah. But I really didn't- again, I didn't notice (U/I) not 25 like I saw them for long, they literally came in the space, look EFTA00090053 18 1 up, see them, and then they're moved- so, they're walked on through- 2 [II): Okay. 3 III): - and then I'm still waiting there to be called back for 4 Ghislaine. 5 III): Okay. I know it was a very short time, like, they're basically 6 just moving from left to right, essentially. [II]: Right. 7 [II]: Did you ever see anyone, uh, mis- or hear, maybe, anyone mistreat 8 them, or? 9 [II]: No. 10 [II]: `Cause I know they're kinda being guided through the house. 11 [II]: Yeah, no, I never saw or heard any mistreatment. [III: And you said the housekeepers kinda managed- managed them? Or 12 managed the whole house? 13 [II]: Managed the whole- I mean, there were- I mean, it was such a 14 large home, so I- 15 [II): Yeah. 16 [II): - I guess, like, they were the staff that would manage- I don't know what- all the things they managed, whether it was people- 17 guests coming, what they needed. So, like, they would come in and 18 say, "would you like some water," and I would get it on a silver 19 tray with a white laced [U/I] and a glass of [U/I1 something like 20 that. So, they're very gracious to me, but, so, I- they just 21 managed the house, so I guess you'd call them caretakers, maybe? [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: Right. I don't know. 23 [III: How many? 24 [II]: Two. 25 [II]: Male or f- EFTA00090054 19 1 [II]: That I saw, but I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there were staff, like, gardeners or- 2 [II]: Sure. 3 Uh, just the people who were- who I met, um, were just, uh- I 4 think actually they were a couple, but I'm not sure if that's 5 6 [II]: Okay. [III: But they were- 7 [I : So, a male and a female? 8 [II]: Yes, but they were lovely. 9 [II]: Okay. 10 [II]: To me they were lovely. Yeah. 11 [II]: Okay. [II - 20:00]: And now I'm blanking on, like, who would call me up- 12 again, I apologize for the memory, but I think it was- Ghislaine 13 would never call me directly, but it was- one of the housekeepers 14 would say, "they're coming into town," or, "she's coming into 15 town early, and who- are you- when are you available `cause she 16 wants her feet worked on." So, sometimes when she would be there, let's say she was there for five days, I might go for three- two 17 or three of the nights and go give her a treatment and then go 18 home. 19 [II]: Okay. So you think it was the housekeepers? And you mentioned 20 I'm sorry. 21 [II]: I didn't- I didn't say_. [II]: Oh, I thought you said or something. No? 22 [II]: No. No. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Just the house- I'm just saying they would call- it wasn't 25 Ghislaine who would ever call me directly, ever. It was someone- EFTA00090055 20 1 whoever managed her world, um, they would call and say, "can you come- this is when they're coming." Uh, I keep saying "they" and 2 I don't mean it, because I really, I- I think it's, like, three 3 times I saw Jeffrey that- 4 [Il]: Okay. 5 [II]: Yeah. 6 [II]: And definitely more Ghislaine? [II]: Oh, I mean, completely. It was all Ghislaine, most of the time, 7 yeah. 8 (II): Okay. Um, you're obviously a professional, you've mentioned that 9 already. Uh, how about Ghislaine's con- conduct? 10 [II]: Her conduct was complete- completely normal. 11 [II]: Okay. (II): I mean, really, you have to remember- and I think, and I'm just 12 saying this, it's not off the record `cause you're recording it, 13 but it's- I'm- I'm not the young girls that have been violated. 14 So- 15 (II): Sure. 16 (II): - I was just- all- the only that said is that if- actually, they wanted, `cause Ghislaine worked in- had a home, I guess, or 17 I don't know who's home, uh, if it was Jeffrey's home or 18 Ghislaine's home, but, um, she w- wanted to notify if I 19 knew anyone to refer- ref- a reflexologist to in Manhattan. 20 III]: Okay. 21 [II]: They had- but she- they always said, "but you have to be attractive." So, that was the one thing that disturbed me. You 22 know, that you can't really be on the property unless you're 23 attractive. 24 [II]: Whose rule was that? 25 [II]: I don't know. EFTA00090056 21 1 It's okay. [II]: It's hot here. 2 [II]: That's 3 [II]: Hey, baby. How are you? 4 [II]: [U/II thanks. 5 [II]: How are you sweetheart? Yeah. You are beautifully groomed. 6 [II]: They help my- [II]: I know. 7 [III: - counseling clients a lot. 8 [UM1): Yeah. 9 [II]: You are beautifully groomed. Yes, you are, ma'am. That's 10 [II]: St- that's- 11 [III: Oh, nd 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: They are [U/I) particularly [U/I). 14 [II]: That's not a bad thing. 15 [II]: Okay, so, get back, sweetie pie. But all- go lie down. 16 [II]: And who was the person that relayed that to you? [II]: Uh, 17 [II]: Okay. 18 [II]: I think it was yeah. It wasn't any staff- it wasn't that 19 couple. 20 [II]: Okay. How long had worked for them- 21 [II]: I don't know. [II]: - before you? 22 [II]: I- I would be a guest, so- 23 [II]: Sure. 24 [II]: I mean, I don't know if it was six months, I really- it's- I'm- 25 I'm literally guessing. But- EFTA00090057 22 1 (II): Okay. (II): - I have no idea. I don't speak with I mean, she's off in 2 her world and we're not- she- like I said, we're both 3 but she- 4 ll.]: Yeah. When is the last time you spoke to her? 5 III]: A 1- I mean, I saw her in the store probably three years ago or 6 something. [II]: Okay. 7 [II]: I really- again, I don't remember. She did send me an email 8 saying, "look at- look what's going on with Jeffrey." So, I got 9 that probably within the past month, but I haven't spoken to her 10 ear-to-ear. 11 (..): Did you guys have any sort of discussion after that email? (II): No, I have not yet. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: But I was- I'm going to. 14 [U]: I imagine you will. 15 [..]: Yeah. Have you- you haven't contacted her obviously yet or no, 16 you can't tell me? Uh, so we went by her, uh- no, it's fine. So, we went by her 17 house in uh, but it looks like somebody is renting it 18 now. It doesn't look like she's there and I guess, and you might 19 be able to clear it up, I guess she lives in 20 [II]: She- she worked in I don't know where she lives. 21 [II]: Okay. [II]: I knew she had a house in off, I think, (U/I) or 22 something- 23 [II]: Yeah. 24 [II]: Yeah. But she worked in 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090058 23 1 [II] : Yeah. So we would refer people to each other, counseling clients, but- 2 [II]: Okay. 3 [II]: Yeah. 4 [II]: Do you know if she- 5 III]: But I don't even know if she- how long she- if she's doing this 6 massage- I don't think she does that at all anymore. She's very successful- 7 [] : Good. 8 [Ill]: - 9 [II]: Good for her. 10 [II]: Yeah. 11 [II]: Do you know if she referred any people to the- to- to Ghislaine or Jeff? 12 [II]: I don't know. 13 [II]: Okay. Was there- 14 [II]: `Cause really, the- the- so, I was the reflexologist and then, I 15 don't know how often went there but she just- the reason 16 why she originally got in touch with me is because Ghislaine wanted her feet work- worked on. 17 [II]: Okay. 18 [II]: And I'm a good so she then said, you know, "would 19 you like me to refer you to them." And I said, "sure." And I 20 didn't know anything more. 21 III): Okay. Was there any sort of incentive or anything like that that you're aware of for referrals? So- 22 [II): No. 23 [II): No. 24 [II): You mean, like, if they were- if she was getting a commission? 25 Or- EFTA00090059 24 1 [Ili: N- so, uh, let's imagine that you- that approached you and she said, "hey, you know, if you know somebody in New York, if 2 you'll refer them, as long as they're attractive, obviously, um, 3 and there's incentive in it for you, which is-" 4 [II]: Oh, no. 5 [II]: Okay. 6 [II]: You mean, like, if she said to me, "there's the incentive for you- would be-" for me? 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: No. 9 [II]: Okay. 10 [II - 25:001: No, no. She just asked for- if there was a name. And 11 Ghislaine would say, "if you ever come to New York, let me know. I'd love you to work on my feet." 12 [III: Okay. 13 [II]: She really like- I mean, she really liked my work. She's just- 14 who she- she was very relaxed and very, um- but she was not, um- 15 I would never ask a client questions or- 16 [II): Sure. [II): - anything like that, she just wanted to know about, like, "tell 17 me- tell me a story, tell me what you work on," that's all she 18 really did. 19 [II]: Okay. Did you ever travel? 20 [II]: No. To- to work on her feet? 21 [II]: Uh, in general. Either- [II]: Oh, I travel- 22 [II]: - either to work- 23 [] : - all my life. 24 [II]: Well, sure. 25 [II]: But not to work- yeah. EFTA00090060 25 1 [II]: Either to work with her or with Jeff or with Ghislaine. [II]: Oh, no. I know he had, um, people who fl- who he flew to 2 wherever- either one of his homes, so I knew that, like a massage 3 therapist or a cook, or- and all I ever heard was little things, 4 like, I don't know if I heard that from or Ghislaine, but 5 that every time they would have a guest, that they would, um, you 6 had to do everything specifically, like, if they were at the dinner table, you would- they had to be served a certain way from 7 a certain- like, "come to the left," or, I can't remember who 8 told me that but I was sorta fascinated, it had to be that exact. 9 And I'll sh- I'll also share that, um, this is probably 10 significant, that they, um, at- wanted me to- this is sort of 11 when I stopped working for them, but they wanted me to sign a contract that anything I saw- so, that's good for you, right? 12 [II): Yeah. 13 [II): Um, anything I saw that I- and that was towards the end `cause I 14 was getting burnt out because I would go late at night after 15 working on stuff, I mean, treating- uh, counseling people here. 16 [II): Sure. [II]: And then at night it got exhausting for me. And driving- 17 [II]: Yeah. 18 [II): -late at night. So, but they s- wanted me to sign a contract 19 saying, like, a celebrity contract, like, "if you know anybody- 20 if you see anything going on here you have to keep it private." 21 And I refused to sign it. [II]: Sure. Who- who approached you with that? 22 [II]: That's what I'm trying to remember. It wasn't, uh, Ghislaine, it 23 might've been the housekeeper. One of the housekeepers, I wish I 24 could remember, who it was. 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090061 26 1 [II): But it was something that was kind of floating around, like, it's about to happen where you need to, like, there's gonna be a 2 contract and- what sits- remains in my mind, whether it's true or 3 not, is if I did violate that contract, I'd be sued for two 4 hundred and fifty thousand dollars. And I was like, uh, "no way. 5 I'm-" 6 [II]: Yeah. [II]: "- not doing that. I'm coming innocently giving you a treatment, 7 I'm not getting involved- I don't even know what goes on, I don't 8 have any idea, but I'm whatever-" `cause they would say- and then 9 I was- it was kind of inferred that there could be celebrities 10 there. And to respect their privacy. 11 [II]: Okay. [II]: And obviously everything that's coming up in the news now, the 12 people who could have been there. 13 [II]: Sure. 14 [II]: Or, the relationships with- with Jeffrey. 15 [II]: Sure. 16 [III: That they knew him. I mean, it's making me sick actually. The whole thing- 17 (II): It's, uh- 18 [II]: - is- I don't want to cry right now, but the stuff that I'm 19 hearing- 20 [II]: I don't want to make you cry. 21 [II]: Oh no, it's okay, but I just- I saw something, I think- on the other day of a woman who said he raped her and, um, it make- it 22 was- made me feel sick that that was going on. `Cause that was 23 never anything that I wit- like, I even sensed, being in their 24 home. Just that they were big- all I- all I could say is, all- 25 from my sort of innocent place is that, I knew I- I'm in the EFTA00090062 27 1 house of fifty- fifty thousand square foot house, I knew Ghislaine's background, right? And all I knew is that Jeffrey was 2 a person who, I mean, who would only take accounts that had to 3 be, like, a billion dollars or more, and that's all and so, I 4 just did my work- and did my work and left. So I didn't- but 5 there wasn't things that I saw or I'd tell you in a second `cause 6 I want this man to be prosecuted appropriately. [II]: Sure. 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: Uh, as far as your treatments for Jeffrey went, what- what would 9 you treat for him? So, for Ghislaine, it was her feet. 10 [II]: Well, I only did reflex- that's all I've been trained in. 11 [II]: Okay. [II): I'm not a massage therapist. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: So, I would just work on his feet. 14 [III: Okay. 15 [II]: And sometimes he- sometimes Ghislaine would come in, like, 1- I'm 16 thinking of the time- so, she- I worked on her mostly, like 98% of the time, 99% of the time, and the times that I worked on 17 Jeffrey, s- like, maybe one or two times it would be a full 18 treatment, and I can look at my invoices for you, but, um, 19 sometimes he'd want to just come in and have, like, a thirty 20 minute treatment and then- so, she'd have half of it and- or d- 21 no, that's when I- she would ask for extra time. So, I'd work on her for an hour, he'd come in, maybe took forty-five minutes and 22 then he would leave. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Yeah. 25 [II]: Did anything odd or inappropriate ever happen during your EFTA00090063 28 1 sessions with Jeff? [II]: The only thing that happened that I did not appreciate is that he 2 came down in his bathrobe and so- and he was not dressed 3 underneath it and so, it- it seemed that- I mean, he didn't 4 expose himself to me in any way or I would have left the house. 5 [II]: Sure. 6 [II]: And I would have said something, but it was just, uh- you could tell that he was, sort of- he was there, loving the treatment, 7 and then the massage therapist that he wanted me to train was 8 there but then the bathrobe would be there and you can tell that, 9 like, even if something started to open up in the bathrobe, I 10 never saw his body literally, but it was- he wasn't being mindful 11 about covering himself. [II]: Okay. 12 [II]: But again, I never saw his penis or anything. I'm being graphic, 13 sorry. 14 [II - 30:03]: No, no, no, you're fine. 15 [II]: Yeah. 16 [II]: We've- we've heard- [II]: Yeah, true, you've heard- 17 [II]: - significantly worse, obviously. 18 [II]: - you've heard a lot worse, right. 19 [II]: Um- 20 [II]: So, I never- I never- he was never, ever inappropriate with me. 21 He was very respectful to me, was fascinated about my work, he wanted to know about my work, my training, and he was like, "can 22 you train," you know, "can you help," and I said, "I can help in 23 an- like, have her watch me, but it took me a long time to learn 24 what I'm doing but I can help her." 25 [II]: Yeah. EFTA00090064 29 1 (II): So, I would- that was it. But he was never inappropriate to me, always respectful. 2 (II): Okay. Uh, this robe thing, was that every time or was it just the 3 one time? 4 (III: No. I don't rem- uh, I think it- I think it was just one time. 5 But I- but I think that, you know, because I work from the feet 6 up to the knee- [II]: Yeah. 7 [II]: - so I don't remember, as you're asking that question, if he had 8 jeans on so, he might- might have been in his bathrobe all the 9 time, I don't- but I don't recall. I definitely remember one time 10 he came down in a white bathrobe. 11 (III: And the way that you described it, that was the same time that the massage therapist- 12 [III: No. 13 [II): - was there? 14 [II]: No. No, that was another time. 15 [II): Or that was a different time. 16 [II]: Right. [II]: Okay. 17 [II]: I really- and again, I'm trying, to do my best to 18 remember- 19 [II]: No, you're fine. 20 [II]: - (U/I) back then. 21 [II]: You're fine. This was, if we're looking at . that's what, 22 Or cl- or- 23 No, years ago. 24 yeah. 25 Ah. EFTA00090065 30 1 [II]: It's just hard to remember the details, I'm doing my best. [II]: Yeah. No, no, no, you're fine. 2 [II]: And when- when if I work on Ghislaine, she would be there whether 3 she was in, you know, shorts or whatever, she would, obviously, 4 have her bare legs or if I worked at- often I would work on her, 5 if it was in the library then she would, I don't know what she 6 did after the treatment `cause I'd get up and leave `cause she'd often fall asleep, but if she was upstairs and she wanted me to 7 work on her up in her bedroom, I would just tiptoe out, wash my 8 hands in the bathroom, and esc- take myself out, no one escorted 9 me out. 10 [II]: Okay. 11 [II]: Right. [II]: Were there any sorts of, uh, parties or large gatherings that you 12 remember- 13 [II]: Not that I ever saw. 14 [II]: - during your time there? 15 [II]: I never was there with any kind of- anything that I would've 16 heard or saw, other than those young girls, um, coming in that time. 17 (III: Do you remember when that was? 18 [II]: I don't. I mean, I can't s- all those years, I can't remember 19 what year it was if that's what you're asking. 20 [II]: Sure. Do you know how long you had been there by that time? 21 [II]: No. [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: I wish I could tell you that. 23 [II]: Summer or winter? 24 [II]: Uh, if I had to guess, I don't remember them being- 25 [II]: Nah d- EFTA00090066 31 1 [II]: - heavily-clothed. [II]: -don't guess. 2 [II]: Yeah. 3 [II]: But- okay. 4 [II]: I really don't remember when it was. 5 [II]: Okay. 6 [II]: `Cause you have to remember, it was pretty much of a fleeting moment. 7 [II]: Sure. 8 [II]: It's literally like you coming in, me sitting here waiting to be 9 called back, they come to the door and I see them for a moment 10 and say hi, and then they walk out the other door. 11 [III: How- [II]: And that's how fast it was. 12 [II]: How many would you estimate? 13 [II]: That time when I saw them, I'd say four? 14 [II]: Four? 15 [II]: Yeah. 16 And I'm pretty naive a- so, I don't- so, it's not like I thought, "I wonder what they're doing here," except that all I knew is 17 that I thought he worked for the Limited or was invested in the 18 Limited, but maybe it was Victoria's Se- Secret, but that I 19 thought they all seemed like they were in awe and kind of the un- 20 young models that wanted- that here they are in awe of this 21 billionaire- [U ]: Sure. 22 [II]: - who's flying them in. And then- so, that's what makes- breaks 23 my heart is that you're- they're so impressionable, right? 24 [II]: Yeah. 25 [II]: And seeing this, uh, tycoon or whatever, wealthy person and being EFTA00090067 32 1 flown wherever and so, their- the innocence of them just breaks my heart, that that's- 2 [II]: Yeah. 3 [III: And so, maybe they were saying, like, get- like that woman on the 4 TV who said he would get- she would get paid three hundred 5 dollars and prom- be promised to become a model. 6 [II]: Yeah. [II]: So, I bet they were, at that age, and they don't say- they get- 7 they get in awe of it. 8 [II]: Yeah. 9 [II]: The wealth. 10 [II]: Yeah. 11 [III: Yeah. [III: Did you ever see the plane or the helicopter? Okay. And you- 12 [II]: I never saw a landing strip. I just saw a massive home. 13 [II]: Okay. And you said you think- you think Ghislaine had her own, 14 uh, pilot's license? 15 [III: Helicopter license- I think so. 16 [II]: Helicopter license. See, look, now I'm out of paper. (U/I] [II]: And it always seemed that she was the, um, like she managed his 17 world in the sense of their home, so she would go to Zorro Ranch 18 but I don't- but he- but then she would manage the staff, and 19 that's what I would hear, like, that they would train- that she 20 had a s- again, I don't remember if it was from Ghislaine, it 21 could've been, but that they- she'd be there to be- do trainings, and to also be at Zorro ranch but she would be there to, like, 22 train if there were new staff and whoever- whoever they were 23 entertaining, let's say it was a celebrity or, uh, I don't know, 24 I'm just naming names, like, Trump or Clinton or- 25 [II): Sure. EFTA00090068 33 1 [Il]: And I didn't see or know any of them, that I'm just hearing now, that's where she'd come in and she'd say n- she had to train the 2 staff to make sure that they- these guests were being served 3 appropriately and not, you know, that it was very private and 4 personal. I mean- 5 [II- 35:03]: Sure. 6 [II]: - if you have a celebrity come in, you don't want someone gossiping and- 7 [II]: Right. 8 [II]: So, they had to do it just that way, so, that's what I- and all I 9 know is that he- that they had the New York home, the, um, Zorro 10 Ranch, and I think an island that he own- uh, he either owned an 11 island or he had a big home in the Caribbean. And I don't- and I don't know if- I think there might- is there one in New York? I- 12 [II]: I don't know. 13 [II]: I don't know. 14 [II]: Who knows? 15 [II]: Exactly, yeah. 16 [II]: Um, did you see Ghislaine training these people- [] : No. 17 [II]: - or do you just know about it? 18 [II]: I just know about it. 19 [II]: Okay. 20 [II]: I- I- literally, I literally just went in, was- waited to be 21 called back until we'd [U/I] each other at the library or bedroom, worked on her feet, and left. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [Il]: And then if Jeffrey wanted the treatment a few times, that's when 24 it- it was always f- down in the d- in the, uh, den. 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090069 34 1 [II]: Library. [II]: Okay. How did you get paid? 2 [II]: I invoiced them. 3 [II]: Okay. 4 [II]: Right. 5 [II]: And then- 6 [II]: And then Zorro Ranch would pay me. [II]: By check? 7 [II]: Yes. Or cash. 8 [II]: Do you still have copies of those checks? 9 [II]: It should be in my Quicken- 10 [II]: Okay. 11 [II]: - oh, the checks? No, I mean, I'd have to go- [II): Okay. 12 [III: -through my- yeah. 13 [II]: Okay. 14 [II]: But I can find out the invoices or, does that matter? Like- 15 [] : Nell, would the invoices- would the invoices or would your 16 Quicken have things like the check numbers or the account numbers or anything like that? 17 (II): No. 18 [II]: Okay. 19 (III: It would just say, you know, "foot reflexology session, in 20 parentheses Ghislaine, 1 and a- 1.5 hours." And then- 21 (II): Okay. But the- it sounds like the- the account was the Zorro ranch account? 22 [II]: Yes. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: It wasn't- there wasn't any personal name on it. 25 [II]: Okay. Did you ever see or interact with any of the other guests? EFTA00090070 35 II]: No. I never saw another guest except those girls, again, I- II]: Okay. I want to talk for a little bit about this massage 2 therapist. What can you tell me about her? 3 [II]: About 4 [II]: No, no, no, no. The- the girl that he had you train. S [II]: Oh, I mean, I literally don't remember what she looked like. It 6 was just a young girl who came in, she pulled up a chair and I'm working on his feet and- and so, I was just talking to her about- 7 about, uh, how to do reflexology, but she was young and I think 8 she traveled with them. 9 [II]: Okay. 10 [II]: But I don't know how many different massage therapists they had 11 in different- wherever their different homes were, but I got the impression that she flew with them, that they brought her with- 12 her with him. 13 [II]: What gave you that impression? 14 [II]: Just from hearing, like, the two- that- "she comes with me." 15 [II]: Okay. Okay. You said, "young girl," how- how old would you 16 estimate she was? II]: I wanna say, again, like, `cause I'm much older, `cause I wanna 17 say maybe eighteen. If they were older than that, maybe. But she 18 was not, like, fifteen years old, I (U/I) girl was, but I- she 19 was not, like, a young, young girl. 20 [II]: Okay. 21 [II]: But she was y- I mean, what am I saying, she was young. [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: Right. 23 [II]: Any idea how long she had been working for them? 24 [II]: No. So I- I just have to say, I know nothing about the rest of 25 their staff except those two c- that couple that ran them- the EFTA00090071 36 1 ranch. (II): Okay. 2 (II): Yeah. I don't know anything about, uh, those girls that came in, 3 what they were doing there, why they were there, how long they 4 worked- how long they were around, I have no idea. 5 (II): Okay. As far as the ranch itself went, how would you get in, were 6 there any sorts of gates, was there security? [II]: I got there (U/I1 there was a gate. 7 [II]: Okay, can you describe that? 8 [II]: So, I would come down whatever, heading towards Stanley, turn 9 into the dr- entrance and then there was a gate code, I can't 10 rem- don't ask me the gate code. 11 [II]: No, I won't. [II]: And then I would push something and then they would- the gate 12 would be open- open- it would automatically open and I would 13 drive, like, quite a distance- 14 (II]: Sure. 15 [II]: - in, to get to the main house. 16 [III]: Okay. And what would happen when you would get there? [II]: And I actually, now I'm thinking of it, back in the beginning I 17 worked, it's just coming to me now, is that originally, I think 18 while that house- home was being built, the big one- 19 [II]: Okay. 20 [II]: - that they had another home that was almost like a, uh, uh, 21 like, a log cabin or, like, uh, an RV, you know what I'm- like a, what do you call it, a- not an RV, uh, help me, like a mobile 22 home. 23 [III: Okay. Mobile home? 24 [II]: Like a double mot- but it was a b- you know, obviously they- it 25 was made to be very nice, so, that was while the house was being EFTA00090072 37 1 built and then I worked over at the main house when they- when that was finished. 2 [II]: Okay, so you actually started off in the mobile home? 3 [II]: I think so. Yeah, that was my memory of it, yeah. 4 [II]: Okay. 5 [II]: But it wasn't a mobile home that was- it was, like, a nice- they- 6 whatever they did. [II]: Right. 7 [II]: I think it was a mobile home- that's my impression because- but 8 it looked like a log cabin design on the outside. 9 [It: Okay. 10 [Il]: And then so, anyway, going back to the main house, what made me 11 think of- what- just remember that is because that was over this way as I'm driving and then I would go around to the main house 12 eventually and then just- when I'd have to park in the back, not- 13 never in the front. So, in fact, I would be parked in the back 14 but what- I would enter through the kitchen. Not the kitchen, 15 excuse me, the quarters that are next to the kitchen if that 16 makes sense. Like a mud- [II - 40:15]: Okay- 17 [II]: - like a mudroom. Like a- 18 [II]: - so, there's a- so, it had its own- so, it had its own entryway? 19 [II]: Yeah, like, about, like- 20 From the outside? 21 [II]: (U/I) yeah. [II]: Okay. Okay. When you would park back there, were there other cars 22 that were back there as well? 23 [II]: Uh, maybe one, or t- I mean, I didn't really note that. (U/I] 24 [II]: Never, like, a bunch of `em or- 25 [II]: -Yeah, no (U/I) EFTA00090073 38 1 [II]: - anything like that. [II]: It was probably the housekeepers' cars or the staff but- 2 [II]: Do you remember what kind of car it was? 3 [II]: Nope. That would be good if I could. 4 [II]: Going back to the- to this girl you trained, um- 5 III]: Well, you have to remember, you know, we're talkin' 6 training for maybe- [II]: For forty-five minutes max- 7 [II]: L- less 8 [II]: - probably. 9 [II]: I mean- 10 [II]: Yeah. 11 [II]: - really, so- someone's sitting there saying, "oh, let me see what you do," like, "come in, show me- please show so- 12 and-so," don't remember her name, "how you do this." 13 [II]: That actually brings up a good point. How- um, so, `cause it is a 14 billion square foot house, um, did they- do you know if Jeff, uh, 15 like, made a phone call to her or asked her to come down or, do 16 you know how she ended up- (III: She was already in the home- 17 [II]: Okay. 18 - that's all I know. 19 [II]: She was already there. 20 [II]: Yup. 21 [II]: Okay. [It: So, if- if it was her- if it was his hired- hired masseuse, she 22 just came down. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 Ill]: Right. And I don't know if it was one, like, I don't know if it 25 was, like, if she was trained as a massage therapist. I mean, she EFTA00090074 39 1 must, I mean, I don't if any of the- these girls who gave him massages who are- have been so violated, if they were trained, 2 `cause I don't think that's the case. 3 [II]: Sure. 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II]: Is there anything about her that you do remember? 6 [II]: About this y- girl? [II]: About the girl, yeah. 7 [II]: I mean, I don't- other than she was a young, attractive girl that 8 sat next to me and I, `cause I'm focused on working on the feet- 9 [II]: Sure. 10 [II]: I'm telling her, you know, "this is where your adrenals are and 11 the pancreas and this is how you do this and," so, she was just watching, fascinated, and she was very sweet. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: But I don't remember anything else. 14 [II]: Okay. Did she and Jeff interact at all? 15 [II]: Not other than just her sitting next to me and him- 16 [II]: Okay. [II]: - saying, like, you know, "memorize what she's doing," or I 17 didn't- she- that's not his exact words, but that's what- 18 [II]: No, I get it. 19 [II]: - he wanted her to learn how to work on the feet better. Yeah. 20 [II]: Okay. 21 [II]: That was my impression. (U/II he had never had, `cause I don't do- I was never trained as a massage therapist, I was only 22 trained as a reflexologist, so, he- that's all I did- did then 23 and so that's, um, that's what he wanted me to teach her. 24 [II]: Okay. Did either of them ever approach you or did anybody, I 25 guess, approach you about doing counseling out there? EFTA00090075 10 1 [II]: Never. [II]: Did they know that you did that? 2 [II]: Yes, that's why she asked about was- she wanted to hear stories. 3 Yeah. 4 [II]: Oh, yeah, I guess so. 5 [II]: Yeah. And again, I want to say on the record that I would never 6 violate confidentiality for my clients. She just wanted to know, like, "what kind of work- what kind of things couple- what coup- 7 issues do couples have? Or what- individuals, what kind of work 8 do you do? And tell me something, a story," or she always wanted 9 to hear, like, a- an interesting story and sometimes I'd say, "I 10 don't have one," or that I would never say names or infer, 11 anyway. [II]: Sure. Was there anything particular that she was interested in? 12 So, uh, some people, so, like, in our line of work, typically 13 what they- what people ask you is, "what's the worst thing you've 14 ever seen," right? 15 [II]: Yeah. 16 [II): Or, things like that. Was- was there any sort of, like, specific thing that she wanted- that- that type of story that she was 17 looking for? 18 [II]: It was more like, uh, just more of a fascination about 19 counseling, more like, "how can you do that," as, like, how, 20 like, "how can you work with couples," or, "that must be hard," 21 or, "tell me, like, what's the most difficult situation that- you might've had," or, you know, they- she just wanted to know 22 something interesting, like, "what's- what's the typical conflict 23 that couples have" or- 24 III]: Okay. 25 [II]: - "an individual have," but she wouldn't be specific, like, "have EFTA00090076 41 1 you ever worked on somebody who's- had been violated or raped," or something like- nothing, she was never specific other than, 2 "tell me a story." 3 [II): Okay. 4 (III: That was more, like, a, like, a curious sort of fascinated. Like, 5 how is it- let's say I hadn't seen her for a month, you know, 6 like, "did you have any- any- you know, "any- any interesting stories to tell about- of a certain circumstance," but again, 7 would never violate anybody's privacy ever. 8 [II]: Yeah. No I- 9 [II]: It was more like an overarching, she wanted to know, like, from 10 what, "what's that like," or, "oh my gosh, how can you do that, 11 isn't that hard," or- I- [II]: Sure. And it sounded like Jeff was more interested in how you 12 were doing what you were doing physically. Did you ever have 13 those types of interactions with him? 14 [II]: About counseling? 15 [II]: About counseling? 16 [II]: Never. [Il]: Okay. 17 [Il]: He literally, like, would sorta stroll in, lie down on the- lie 18 down on the couch in the- in the library, and I would work on his 19 feet. But because of my impression of their- their status, or 20 their- I was very private myself but I also respected their- 21 [II - 45:02]: respected their privacy. [II]: - I didn't really know who this person was or what he did other 22 than hearing snippets from or- again, just, it's not that 23 she was telling me secrets or anything, it was more, I'm- I'm not 24 a person who goes and starts googling until recently. 25 [II]: Yeah. EFTA00090077 42 1 [Il]: I will tell you something, I- it- the- so- a client, a counseling client here, googled me and said, "you should google yourself," 2 actually I saw him this morning, but he- he was saying, um, so I 3 went and googled myself like he said, "just look," and some- two 4 people were saying, "oh, must have become- become 5 after working," for whatever, I don't know if it said 6 Zorro Ranch or he said- he- "she's in- she's in Jeffrey's little black book," that's what it was and I was mortified. Because it's 7 like one, how did they even tie it together, how'd they know all 8 that, but with the internet. So, I was mortified that my name, if 9 someone, because I'm very proud of my work- 10 [II]: Sure 11 [II]: - would google me and then wonder, like, now- I didn't want it to, like, taint anything. 12 [II]: Sure. 13 [II]: But they said something like, "she's in - he- 14 in little black book," but I'm- they didn't seem like 15 professionals, it was like, so, who are these people? And I 16 didn't- I never really pursued it or anything and I- you can't erase anything that's on Google. 17 [II]: Yeah. 18 [II]: Right? 19 [II]: Yeah, it's just gonna be there. 20 [II]: But it was like, "she must've become a therapist- she must have 21 become a therapist," or something like that, "because of- because of whatever she had to deal with, 22 " or, it was just some absurd- 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: (U/I] 25 [II]: Nothing like that happened, though? EFTA00090078 43 II]: What? II]: Uh, them sending you to some sort o or you having 2 to do that for yourself- 3 ,II]: Oh- 4 [II]: - because of the things you saw? 5 [II]: Oh, no, no, no, no. 6 [II]: Okay. Ill]: I didn't see anything. 7 [II]: Right. 8 [II]: Yeah. 9 [II]: I'm just- 10 [II]: Yeah, no. 11 [II]: - just making sure. I went to 12 graduated in■ and graduated in ■ and I love my work, you know, there's not- no- there wasn't 13 any counseling going on there, they never asked me to counsel 14 anybody. 15 (UI: Okay. Outside of the pay that you received for the reflexology, 16 were you ever given any other money? 17 [II]: No. No. [II]: Were you ever involved in- 18 : What- 19 [] : - I'm sorry, go ahead. 20 [II]: What would they pay me, other than reflexology? I guess, you just 21 have to ask? 22 [II]: Just have to ask. Uh, were you ever involved in any lawsuits that, uh, were also associated with them? 23 [II]: Never. 24 [II]: Has anybody interviewed you about any of this before? 25 [II]: No. That's why when you came to the door and I was happy to help EFTA00090079 44 1 you, but I don't- `cause I've had people come for counseling reasons, for other, you know, if somebody had to be, uh, had 2 [U/I1 had records, whatever- 3 [II]: Sure. 4 [II]: - so, I didn't know who you were, so, I didn't mean to be rude- 5 [II]: No, no, no. 6 [II]: - who are you, how do I know who are? [II]: I- we- we've dealt with rude before- 7 [] : Okay. 8 [Ill]: - you weren't rude. I wouldn't worry about that. Um, let's see. 9 Do you know who any of the other staff were? 10 (II): Just the housekeepers, I don't remember their name. I didn't see 11 their cook. So, again, all I- all I was- was delivered was some water and then I never saw anybody, never saw a guest. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [Il]: Never saw any, I mean, then I- you know, you wonder who was 14 there. And I don't remember who told me who- who could've been 15 there but I thought it was- they were saying that it could be 16 somebody like Bill- Bill Clinton or, uh, I'm trying to remember who else is, I don't remember who told me but, um, but actors. 17 [II): Okay. 18 [■]: I didn't know about Trump until recently, in the news. Yeah. 19 (II): Is there anything that stands out in your mind that we haven't 20 talked about yet that might be important to what we're doing? 21 [II]: I'm trying to give you everything I can- [II]: Sure. 22 [II]: - to help you get him where he needs to be. 23 [II]: Sure. 24 [II]: It makes me sick. 25 [II]: Yeah. EFTA00090080 45 1 [II]: Sorry, I- [II]: No, no, no, you're- you're fine. 2 [II]: Yeah. I'll do anything to help you. 3 [II]: Sure. 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II]: Um, do you think- would s- or, sorry, do you think 6 would speak with us? [II]: I'm sure, I imagine- I can't speak for her, but I don't know why 7 she wouldn't. 8 [II]: During your- 9 [II]: Did you try to cont- did you- you just went to her home? 10 [II]: Yeah, we just went to the Sante Fe house just `cause we're up 11 here. (III: Okay. 12 [II]: We're both based out of 13 [II]: Okay. 14 [III: So, we have an office (U/I) 15 Did she ever talk to you about maybe feeling uncomfortable at 16 being out at the ranch or anything like that? II]: No. And I don't remember how long she was their massage 17 therapist. I don't know who she worked on, I don't know any of 18 that but I think it was pretty m- we're both really professional 19 people, so, I don't really know when she stopped or anything like 20 that. 21 (III: Okay. I know you, obviously, have her email, do you have a contact number for 22 [II]: I do. 23 [II]: May I? 24 [II]: Am I- am I being inappropriate giving that number? 25 [II - 50:011: That is entirely up to you, ma'am. EFTA00090081 46 1 [III: I think- []: If you're- 2 [II]: - I'd rather do- 3 [II]: - if you're uncomfortable with it- 4 [II]: What I think that I- I mean, just because I'd rather ask her and 5 then give her- 6 [II]: Yeah. [II]: - your information. 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: Can I do that? Yeah. 9 [II]: No, no, that's perfectly acceptable. 10 [II]: Let me do that. I'd feel more appropriate. 11 [II]: No, no, no, absolutely. Um, can you think of anybody else, `cause I know the- your field of expertise is probably relatively small, 12 the same way that law enforcement is, it's big but it's also 13 small, um, can you think of anybody else, uh, that it might be 14 beneficial for us to talk to? 15 (II): I don't- I don't kn- I didn't know anybody else involved with 16 them so, I don't know. (II): Okay. 17 (II): I mean, did you talk to the housekeepers? I'm sure that- if 18 they're- whoever's still there- my impression too is that when 19 everything started going down with the first arrest- 20 [II]: Yeah. 21 [II]: - they, basically, everybody stopped work- going there. [II]: Yeah. 22 [II]: And working there. So, that's- that's- and I don't know what year 23 that was. Do y- maybe you do. 24 [II]: Yeah. 25 [II]: Sure. Yup. EFTA00090082 17 1 [II]: Yeah. (III: So, it was kinda shut down so I nev- I never went back. I wasn't 2 gonna go back anyway, but... I never heard from anybody. Not a 3 word. 4 [III: And you stopped going once they asked you to sign the- that 5 disclosure- 6 [II]: Yeah, I wasn't gonna- [] : - that non-disclosure form? 7 [II]: - but I probably went a few more times, again, I don't remember, 8 but I- I thought, "if they're gonna keep asking me this-" so they 9 brought it up that there was gonna be this document- 10 [II]: Right. 11 [II]: - and then I thought, "I'm not doing it," and then it- and then so I kept going, however many times, but I thought, "if they 12 actually say, `here it is,' I'm gonna leave." So, I was pretty 13 close. It wasn't like they said, "you're gonna have to sign 14 something," and I left and never went back. 15 (II): Okay. 16 III): I went back. I know of X amount of times and I knew that if they were gonna ask me to sign it, there's no way I'm signing 17 anything. 18 III]: Okay. 19 [II]: That felt really in- not good. 20 [II]: Yeah. 21 [II]: Yeah. [II]: What- 22 [II]: Oh, well, I do know that, I guess, celebrities can do that- 23 [] : Yeah. 24 [II]: - and ask people, `cause of the confidentiality, but I still 25 didn't even want to be a part of it. EFTA00090083 48 1 [II]: Yeah. [II]: Yeah. 2 [II]: What did eventually make you stop going out there? 3 (II]: Pretty much the fact that- when I found that- out what was going 4 on, like, the first arrest, whatever. 5 [II]: Okay. 6 [II]: Yeah. And it was also exhausting. [II]: Ha. 7 [II]: Yeah. It really was. I mean, I- if it was something I had to do 8 ev- you know, several nights a week, every week, I wouldn't- 9 couldn't have done it. But because she came in, you know, 10 whenever she did, it could be- she could come in in Jan- I'm 11 making this up, I'd have to look, she could come January and not come again until April or- 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: - or then she could- again, I- I don't remember that far back, 14 but- 15 [II]: Okay. 16 [II]: Yeah. [II]: Okay. Did you have anything else for her? 17 [UM1]: Uh, yes and please stop me if I- 18 (U): No, no, no, please. 19 [UM1]: So, you said that the housekeepers made a very good impression 20 upon you with their kindness- 21 [I: Yup. [UM1]: - and generosity- 22 (II): Yeah. 23 [UM1]: - if you were to see a picture of them, do you think you would 24 be able recognize them? 25 [II]: Uh, you could try me, but I don't- right now, I can't remember EFTA00090084 19 1 their faces for the life of me, no. [II): Is that it? 2 (UM1): Yeah, I have a [U/I]- 3 (II): You have a picture? 4 [UM1): - (U/I) a hotspot- 5 (II): Oh, do you? 6 [UM1): If you wanna (U/I) [III: Yeah, absolutely. But what time- what time is it? Let's start 7 there. We've got about seven minutes. 8 [UM1): It might- yeah, and I can text my next s- uh, client is a phone 9 session, so I can tell them I'm running five minutes behind if 10 you need, no rush, but. 11 [UM1): May I get your keys so I can grab them [U/I] [III: Yeah, no, absolutely. 12 [III: Are you [U/I) picture? 13 [UM1): I'm great, let's see if I [U/I] 14 [II): Oh my [U/I) uh, let me put that behind you because 15 it's locked. I think it's locked. 16 (UM1): Okay. [II]: Just c- crack it. 17 Is it pronunciation? 18 yeah. No, that's you're fine. 19 [III: Okay. 20 [II): Yeah, this, uh, it's pretty ugly. 21 [II]: [U/I) [II]: Yeah and I'm sorry you're wrapped up in it, that's uh- 22 [II]: Do I need to- is there any reason that I would have to do- do 23 anything past this where I should get an- an attorney or, : 24 don't- 25 III): I, so- EFTA00090085 50 II): - I haven't done anything. II): - I- I can't give you legal advice. Like, I'm just not allowed to 2 give you- 3 II): Okay. 4 [II]: - legal advice. If you feel like you should at least contact 5 somebody, you should absolutely just contact somebody. Even if 6 you just want to run it by `em. [II]: Okay. 7 [II]: If you feel that you don't need to, don't. But I c- I can't- 8 [] : I understand. 9 [II]: -I'm just not allowed to either way. 10 [II]: I just didn't think that because of what I'm telling you, I, 11 like, wasn't involved in anything- [II): Yeah. 12 III): -other than going in, doing my work, and leaving, that- that 13 there- that I'm- 14 [II]: Yeah. 15 [II]: - kind of a benign, um- 16 [II]: Yeah. [II]: - whatever, involved person. 17 [II]: Yeah. Obviously, you know, you watch the news- 18 [1.]: stop, it's 19 [II]: It's just 20 [1.]: get your baby. 21 [II]: We're all friends here now. [II]: Come on, get your baby, say hi to Get your baby, come on, 22 just... 23 LUM1): God, that guy on the ropes, I'm gonna take him out. 24 [II]: I'm going to, um, text my client and see if she- 25 [II]: Yeah, no, absolutely, and we appreciate it. EFTA00090086 51 1 (UM1): And we'll do this as quickly as I can. [II]: Sure. 2 [II]: Yeah. What's the matter, Stella? Come here, baby. Want some 3 waters? Huh? I know. Have all these strangers walking into your 4 house. I know. 5 III - 55:04): I'm gonna say, "ten minutes later," let's see, do you 6 think that you- how much time do you think you need? [II]: Uh, however long it takes to boot up. 7 [II]: Okay. Uh, let's see. 8 [UM1): Ten minutes is pretty safe. 9 [UM1): Please. 10 [II]: [WI]. Okay. Okay. 11 [II]: Thank you for doing that, we really appreciate it. [II]: (U/I1 12 [II]: Are you familiar, with, uh, 13 [II]: No. 14 [II]: - at all? 15 [II]: Never heard of her. 16 [II]: Okay. [II]: I know you can't say anything, I'm just saying it out loud, and 17 that's why I was going to call but I was thinking because 18 of Ghislaine and the whole involvement, if she's gonna go to jail 19 but that's- that's not- 20 [II]: Yeah, we can't. Yeah. 21 [II]: No, I know you can't say a word. I'm not asking you to, but I just- 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: I- I just want- obviously, it's a very disturbing- 24 [II]: Yeah, I mean, you- 25 [II]: - collaboration. EFTA00090087 52 1 [U] : -you know, you watch the news the same as I do- [E] : Yup. 2 - so, I mean, it's- it's- it's a pretty broad scope of issues. 3 [M] : Oh, oh yeah. 4 Uh, and all of it's, you know, ugly at best - 5 [U] : Oh, yeah. 6 [U] : - unfortunately. : But it seems like, I know you can't say anything, but it seems 7 like he's not gonna get away with, uh- obviously, he's going- 8 [: Well, the- 9 [U] : - he's gonna to jail. 10 [U] : I know- I know the, uh, the feds are holding him. They didn't - 11 they denied him bail, uh, so they're holding him there in New York, you know? However, we're just doing our part at this- 12 tEj : Yeah. 13 [U] : - you know? Just trying to be part of the solution, I guess. You 14 know? 15 [M] : Do you have the staffs' names? I mean, do you- the housekeeper's 16 name? 17 (MI: So, we can't - [U] : You can't say that. 18 [1.] : Yeah. 19 [E ] : Okay. 20 : If you recognized them, then- 21 [U] : Okay. 22 [U] : - great, if you don't, that's okay too. But yeah, we [U]: Okay. 23 [E ] : - we can't give you anything any further than that- 24 : I- I understand. 25 [U] : - that might push you in one direction or another- EFTA00090088 53 1 (II): That's fine. (II): - obviously. 2 (UM1): Before I have to view the picture that I have to make sure 3 there's no identifiers associated with it. 4 (II): So, my client said, "not at all, not a problem. I just picked up 5 my son." Okay. 6 (II): Okay. And thank you, again, so much for doing that, you don't have to. 7 [III: So, I'll have `til five of. 8 [III: Okay. That should put us right on time. Give you a little bit of 9 a break before you have to start with your client. 10 Woah. 11 (III: What did you say I mean, about the- (UM1): I- I have to view the picture to make sure that there is no i- 12 f.): Oh, I get it. Can you cover it with your finger? 13 (UM1): There's- there's a little issue here. I just wanna- 14 (II): And there's something I'm remember- I, again, don't quote me 15 because I don't remember that well, `cause I kind of went in my- 16 in my way and just did my work and left, but I- there might have been two sets of housekeepers, for some reason that's coming up 17 for me now, I don't know- 18 III]: Okay. 19 [III: - if one of them had to leave and go back somewhere, wherever 20 they lived. Like, if they were in another state or another- from 21 another- I don't think they were from another country, but, then- but they were- so, but I definitely- they were lovely people. 22 [II]: Okay. Okay. 23 [II]: They're obviously holding a lot of, you know, in- information in 24 their... (U/I). 25 (III: I would imagine. EFTA00090089 54 1 [II]: [U/I] good for them. [II]: Yeah. 2 [II]: [U/I] for everybody involved. 3 [U]: Yeah. No, that's just not a good- that's just not a good 4 situation, period. And it's unfortunate. 5 (UM1): So, I'm just gonna [U/I] 6 [II): Yeah, take your time. [UM1]: (U/I] right there. 7 (II): So, am I (U/I] have. Yeah, I think that- I think that was her. 8 One of the housekeepers- I- at this point, I won't swear my life, 9 to- 10 [UM1]: Based on- based on your description of how you interacted and 11 how she presented herself to you, that is my guess. And tell me if the... 12 [II): I think that, yeah. Was that what you're saying, based on my 13 interaction with her, do I think that that was one of the 14 housekeepers? 15 [UM1]: I'm just asking you if that's who you interacted with. 16 [II): I think so, yes. That's- she looked- but she had a husband, too, I think. 17 [UM1): Do you- did you see both of them? 18 [II]: Uh-huh. 19 [II]: Okay, let's try again. 20 III - 1:00:01): If you have a set of another- another set of 21 Housekeepers I- or, just those, okay. See, though, I'm just trying to remember too, who was that other- 22 there was another woman that I don't remember. She was never in 23 the main house, but they had horses. 24 III]: Okay. 25 [II]: At the ranch, right? EFTA00090090 55 :UM1): I had that picture readily available. II]: So, they had, like, there were all sorts of different, um, uh, 2 homes, like, little cabins or guesthouses or- 3 II]: Okay. 4 [II]: - whatever you call- call them, where different staff would live, 5 but I remember interacting with one nice woman, but it- there was 6 nothing substantial to tell you about that. [II]: Okay. So, the staff lived on the property? 7 [II]: Yes. That's what [U/I] 8 [UM1): Here is the other female. 9 (II): No, I don't know that one. 10 [UM1): Nope? 11 [II): Okay. [UM1): The other one- 12 (II): Maybe that was after I 1- I don't know. 13 [UM1): Let me, um. Feel free to continue talking (U/I) 14 (II]: Okay. 15 [II]: So, you said, uh, there was at least one person who took care of 16 horses. Do you know about the other staff or? (II): I mean, I don't know- you mean, about what they did? 17 [II]: Well, like, how many, things like that. 18 [II]: I would j- I'd be guessing too. So, there's the housekeepers, 19 then there was, like, a groundskeeper, there was, like, people 20 who was in charge of the horses, and that's- and then I think 21 that there maybe was another person who was an assistant, but : don't remember, or- but maybe she was the one who was in that 22 house- one of the houses when I first drove in? 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Yeah. 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090091 56 1 (UM1): Sorry, sir. [II]: No, no, no, you're fine. Outside of this how are you doing? 2 [II]: Good. 3 [II]: Good. 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II): Good to hear. 6 [II]: Well, yeah. [II]: Good. 7 [II]: Except for the heat. 8 [II]: Yeah, my, uh, my air conditioner- 9 [II]: What's it like i. can't imagine. 10 [II]: - my air conditioner went out yes- some time yesterday. So, it 11 was, uh, it was not pleasant last night in my house. [III: Well- 12 [II): But- 13 [II]: It must be awful, I mean, `cause it's like ten degrees hotter 14 easily in 15 [II]: Yeah. Yeah, it was. So, when I woke up, so, when I woke up it was 16 about seventy outside, but it was eighty-five- (II): Ugh. 17 [II]: - inside the house. It was awful. 18 [II]: I've never- 19 [II]: Just awful, awful. 20 [II]: - I've lived here since I've never wanted an air 21 conditioning ever except in here but, um, now I- now I I think I wish I had one, but I don't really like AC that much. 22 [II]: Really? 23 [II]: No. But it would be nice to have it. 24 [II]: Yeah. 25 [II]: Yeah. It seems like it's getting hot- EFTA00090092 57 1 [II]: Yeah, when you want it, you definitely want it. [II]: Yeah, that's right. 2 [II]: Yeah. Yeah, it's been awful and today it's hot again. 3 [II]: It's supposed to be hot this weekend, I think, right? 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II]: Yeah. 6 [II]: Yeah. Something tells me my AC's probably not going to get fixed by then, so I contacted, uh, people yesterday, um, and they were 7 like, "well, we'll check the schedule and see when we can come 8 out." I was just like- I just hung my head, there's nothing else 9 I can do. So, I can beat on it with a hammer but that ain't gonna 10 do no good, so- 11 [II]: No. (II): I'm pretty much stuck. 12 (UM1): It's not (U/I] 13 [II]: No? Okay. Okay, well, if it's not, it's not, so. 14 [II]: I mean, I'll see you, I'll come to- anytime you want to ask me 15 more, or, I mean, I don't think there's anything more I have, but 16 if you want to show me pictures- [II]: Yeah. 17 [II]: - another time. 18 [II]: Yeah, as long as that's okay with- 19 [] : Yeah. 20 [II]: - you, then. Yeah. 21 [II]: That's fine, yeah. The only thing wouldn't be fine is if I- like today when you just came, I'd rather have (U/I)- 22 [II]: Yeah, no, we'll definitely call ahead of time- 23 [II]: Yeah. 24 [II]: - uh, text you or whatever- 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090093 58 1 [II]: - the case may be and yeah, we'll make- we'll make better arrangements next time- 2 [II]: Okay. 3 - for certain. Are you all good? 4 (UM1): I'm just trying one more thing since we're here, sir. 5 [II]: Absolutely. Yeah, it's- 6 [II]: Do you feel like you've covered up everything that you can think of? 7 [II]: I think so, yeah. Is- oh- feel free, if you don't think I have. 8 [II]: I know, I'm try- no, I'm trying to tell you as things pop in, 9 `cause they- you know how you- when you start talking about 10 something and then you remember, like, "oh," um_ Yeah, no, never 11 saw any guests ever, except for the girls that came in that time. [II]: Okay. 12 [II]: Um. And ag- and, you understand, because of their privacy- 13 [II]: Yeah. 14 [II]: - that I was just always- I wasn't up- supposed to go in any 15 other part of the house. Although I never- but I would walk 16 upstairs as- like, whoever that other woman was, or, I wish I could remember the- see a picture of the man, but, they were 17 lovely and they would just say, um, "okay, you can go upstairs 18 now to Ghislaine's bedroom if she's up there," or they'll, "wait 19 down here in the kitchen," off, you know, the mudroom, whatever 20 and- and then, "you're gonna be going into the library today." 21 [II]: Okay. [II]: And that's just it. So, then I would just sit there, set up. 22 [II]: Just hang out and wait. 23 [II]: Then she'd come in and she'd plop down, and then sometimes she'd 24 call and ask for something to eat, but... I don't remember him. But 25 who knows? If that was his- but I'm pretty sure the first woman EFTA00090094 59 1 had a husband. Or I believe that they were together. (II): Okay. Alright. 2 (UM1): We have, like, one picture that's resisting my- 3 [II - 1:05:02): It's probably her husband or something. 4 [II]: All set? 5 (UM1): (U/I) 6 [II]: Alright, well, we are gonna get out of here. Thank you- [II]: You're welcome. 7 [II]: -again for talking to us, we really appreciate it. 8 [II]: You're welcome. 9 [II]: Um, if you'll give a call, uh, and see if she's- if she 10 would be willing to speak to us, that would also be incredibly- 11 (II): Okay. (II): - helpful. Um, and that's it. If you remember anything, uh, that 12 we haven't covered, or if you remember anything better, or 13 anything like that, feel free to contact, uh- get with me, 14 specifically- 15 [] : Okay. 16 [II]: - um, and then we'll just go from there. [II]: Okay. And so wait and talk to you ear-to-ear, don't leave it on 17 your voicemail, right? 18 [II]: Um, yeah, I would- 19 [II]: Okay, yeah (U/I)- 20 III]: - yeah, I would wait. Just- just let me know that you need to 21 talk to me. [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: Um, I don't always answer the work phone, uh, so you can either 23 leave me a text message or just leave me a voicemail- 24 [II]: Okay. 25 [II]: - and just let me know that you need to talk to me. EFTA00090095 60 1 [II]: Perfect. That'd be great. [II]: Okay? Alright, well, we're going to get out of here. 2 [II]: [U/I] 3 [II]: Yeah, no, absolutely. 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II]: Thank you so much. 6 [UM1): Thank you very much for your time. [II]: (U/I1 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: [U/I] 9 [II]: It seems like an awful lot, but- 10 [II]: It's really, like, with what I've- I almost can't watch it, the- 11 and I'm not a big news person, but s- I have- other people will come in and just, like, talk about re- recent news or something, 12 and it's like unbelievable what they've discovered. 13 [II]: Yeah. 14 [II]: The money and everything. 15 [II]: Yeah. 16 [II]: It's really disturbing. [II]: Yeah. 17 [UM1]: Yeah but what you might hear might jog your memory and- 18 (II): Yeah. 19 [UM1): [U/I] should have- 20 [II]: That's right. 21 [II]: Thank you so much. [II]: Thank you. Have a good weekend. 22 [UM1]: You too. 23 [II]: You too. 24 [II]: Smells like somebody's bakin' bread. Is it pizza? 25 (UM1): (U/I) that right. (U/I) EFTA00090096 61 1 [III: What's the- no, I don't think so. I think this place next door is a pizza place. 2 [END OF RECORDING] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00090097 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00090098