EFTA00111830

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 MR. All right. The recorder 1 name? To start, a ain, I am DO] OIG Senior 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, lune 15, 2021 and 2 if, Agent, • 3 the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is 3 4 , and I am a Senior Special Agent 4 MR. This is DOJ Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 5 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 6 : This is BOP employee, 7 And these are my credentials. 7 8 MR. Okay. 8 MR. : All right. Thank you, 9 MR. : This interview with 9 everyone. And this is an official DO] 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 10 investigation surrounding the circumstances of 11 - is it Jermaine? 11 Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being 12 MR. : Yes. 12 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 13 MR. , is being 13 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 14 interview with the DOJ OIG? 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 15 MR...es. 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 16 MR. : Great. We're just going 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 17 to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 18 I'm going to read it for the record. It says, 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 19 United States Department of Justice Office of 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jeri. 20 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 21 Also resent is DOJ OIG Special Agent 21 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 22 and Mr. . This interview will be 22 a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 23 provide information as part of an investigation 24 . Could everyone please identify 24 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00111830 6 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 1 mind just printing your name where it says 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 2 Employee's Name? Sorry. 3 performance failure and security failure. This 3 MR. : All right. 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 4 MR. • Right below it. 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary MR. Thank you, sir. And 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 6 Special Agent , can you sign that as the 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 7 witness? 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 8 MR. : Yes. This is Special Agent 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 9 iiiiiiiiiined as a witness. 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 10 MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you 11 It says, "I understand the Warnings and 11 hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 12 form? 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 13 MR...es. 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 14 MR. : Great. Before starting, 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 15 I would like you place you under oath. Can you 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 16 just raise your right hand? Mr. , do you 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 17 swear to tell the truth and nothing but the 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 18 truth durino this interview? 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 19 MR. : I do. 20 copy of this. 20 MR. Thank you, sir. Can you 21 MR. : This isn't what I wanted. 21 just show me your credentials, for the record, 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 22 to make sure that -- 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 23 MR. : Here you go, sir. 24 of the Inspector General Specialliiiii. And I 24 MR. -- all right. For the 25 am going to print my name. Mr. , do you 25 record, I am looking at the U.S. Department of 7 8 1 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials 1 Natchitoches, Louisiana. 2 of Mr. . It says that he is the 2 MR. : Great. And what was that 3 Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in 3 Associate's decree in? 4 New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. 4 MR. It was in Social Work. 5 Thank you, sir. 5 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 6 MR...kay. 6 what year? 7 MR. : All right. And what is 7 MR. I believe it was 2012 or '13. 8 your current home address? 8 MR. Great. Thanks. Did you 9 MR. 9 have any employment prior to the BOP? 10 10 MR. : Yes. I had worked almost two 11 MR. Thank you. And what is 11 years for the Colorado Department of 12 your current cell phone number? 12 Corrections. 13 MR. : It is 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. And what is your highest 14 MR. rAs a Correctional Officer. 15 level of education? 15 And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten 16 MR. : I have three years of 16 years - well, nine years, 11 months in the 17 college. 17 United States Arm . 18 MR. And where did you go to 18 MR. : Awesome. Thanks for your 19 college? 19 service. 20 MR. : I went to - I actually have 20 MR. InMn-hmm. 21 my Associates Degree at Northwestern State 21 MR. : When did you work as a 22 UniversitiiIIIIIIII 22 Correctional Officer for two years? 23 MR. : And where is that 23 MR. : In Colorado? 24 located? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. : That's going to be in 25 MR. : I believe the dates were from EFTA00111831 9 10 1 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 1 MR. Okay. Perfect. And 2 2005. 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-S? 3 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 3 MR. E-5. 4 you said you were in the - did you say the 4 MR. E-5. All right. When 5 Army? 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 MR. Mies. 6 Prisons? 7 MR. : And what was your rank in 7 MR. : 09/27/2005. No. I'm sorry. 8 the Army? 8 11/27/2005. 9 MR. I was a Sergeant. 9 MR. Great. And when did you 10 MR. • Honorable discharge? 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 MR. Yes. 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 MR. • When you left, what was 12 MR. : I believe it was March of 13 your primiiiiiisponsibility? 13 2006. 14 MR. : Basically, at that time, I 14 MR. Okay. We don't have to 15 was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 surveyor. 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 MR. Okay. And what was that? 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 Where did ou say? 18 institution. Just, like -. 19 MR. : Sir? 19 MR. : Right. I started as a five, 20 MR. . The topographical? 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - I 21 MR. . It's a topographical surveyor 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 MR. : Oh, a surveyor. 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 MR. E.- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 surveyor. Right. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline 11 12 1 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. 1 stand for? 2 MR. : All right. Great. And 2 MR. : The Metropolitan Correctional 3 is it correct that you used to work at the MCC 3 Center. 4 in New York City? 4 MR. Perfect. And located at 5 MR. : That is correct. 5 150 Park Row, New York, New York? 6 MR. : All right. And what were 6 MR. : That is correct. 7 your positions when you were at the MCC? 7 MR. Thank you, sir. As a 8 MR. : 'ACC, I was the Captain. 8 Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor 9 MR. : Okay. And from what 9 when you were at the MCC? 10 dates weriiiiiithe Captain? 10 MR. : It would be, at that point, 11 MR. : I was the Captain from 11 at that time we was transitioning. 12 September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all 12 MR. Okay. 13 the way until June 25 of 2020. 13 MR. : So, I would, normally, I 14 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 14 would answer to two people, which would be the 15 was that our first assignment as a Captain? 15 AW of Custody, which, at that time, was 16 MR. : No. That was my second. 16 17 MR. What was your first 17 MR. Okay. 18 assignment as a Captain? 18 MR. : However, we was transitioning 19 MR. : My first assignment as a 19 when that incident happened. It was 20 Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC 20 was the AW over Custody at that time. 21 Brooklyn. 21 MR. : All right. So, when you 22 MR. : Okay. And then you got 22 are talking about that time, are you talking 23 promoted, and went to MCC? 23 about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? 24 MR. : Yes. Yes. 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. And what does the MCC 25 MR. Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00111832 13 14 1 of was still the AW in 1 Custody, and also, I would have conversations 2 charge of Custody at that time? 2 3 MR. : No. 3 Okay. 4 MR. . She was not? Okay. 4 : So, it would just depends on 5 MR. : No. Basically, what it was - 5 what the situation may be. So, if there was 6 again - with the areas of responsibility had 6 instances where I would run things through the 7 changed, p rifor -- 7 chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was 8 MR. Okay. 8 times that I would take direction directly from 9 MR. -- to this incident. So, 9 the Warden. 10 that week, Ms. was going to be - 10 MR. : Okay. As far as, though, 11 even though hers responsibilities had changed 11 in this instance, if, you know, being that 12 as the AW over Custody, and Warden 12 August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the 13 N'DiayeN'Dia had appointed - or instructed - 13 first person ou contacted when ou were -- 14 that Ms. IIIII would then take over the 14 MR. : Was 15 responsibilities. But however, she was 15 MR. : -- correct. And that was 16 supposed to o on annual leave. 16 because the other AW was out. Is that what you 17 MR. Okay. 17 were sayik. 18 MR. : So, at that time, Ms. 18 MR. : My belief is that she was on 19 was actually there, as far as, 19 annual leave which was stated -- 20 she was still in that capacity when the 20 MR. : Okay. 21 incident ha ened. 21 MR. : -- that we had closed out on 22 MR. : Okay. 22 that Friday, that she would be starting annual 23 MR. : However, again, the previous 23 leave. 24 question that you asked, normally, as my 24 MR. : Okay. But the other AW 25 responsibilities, I would notify the AW over 25 was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? 15 16 1 MR...es. 1 MR. Great. I'm just going to 2 MR. : Oka . Which ou 'ust 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 said was - you went with 3 to their conversations with you. 4 because she was on? 4 MR. Ed -hmm. 5 MR. . That's right. 5 MR. : We want to just go over 6 MR. : Okay. Have you since 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 correct? 8 clarification on. 9 MR. : Well, what I realized is 9 MR. ..bsolutely. 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 10 MR. : So, I'm just going to 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 13 MR. ..orrect. 14 the AW 14 MR. : All right. So, " 15 MR. : All right. How do you 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 spell her last name? 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 MR. : Ms. M? 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. . Yes. 18 MR. : "In 2014, he was 19 MR. : A-D-G-E. 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 MR. Perfect. Thank you. All 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DO] 22 sorry. 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 23 MR. : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 of 2019? 24 in between there. 25 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Yeah, yeah. EFTA00111833 17 18 1 MR. M Yeah. Right. 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 MR. : So, it says, "In 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 5 MR. ..orrect. 6 his current position, where he oversees 6 MR. : Okay. "And it has 7 security for the entire building." 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 MR. : Well, yeah. There was a 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 And that's when I went to Pollock. FCC 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 Pollock. 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 MR. : Okay. 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 MR. rnd then, from FCC Pollock, 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 16 Lieutenants. 17 '14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 17 MR. : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 MCC. 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. " also sits on 20 MR. : Okay. So, they have - 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 MR. : That is correct. 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 MR. Okay. It says, " 25 the BOP." 19 20 1 MR. : Correct. 1 MR. : All security protocols are 2 MR. . "Among others, is 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 responsible for the Special Housing 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant IIII." Is that 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 correct? 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 MR. Correct. 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 MR. : "As an Administrative 7 accountabiiiiiiiiiihe inmates in the unit. 8 Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining 8 MR. : So, I guess what I was 9 paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an 9 etting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying 10 IIII. Was there a specific person that was the 11 whoever was Acting in the Administrative 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 Lieutenant -- 12 MR. : Yes. The Administrative 13 MR. : Capacity? 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 MR. • -- position? 14 MR. : And do you happen to know 15 MR. : No, I wasn't. Basically, 15 how to spell that last name? 16 Administrative duties. The Administrative 16 MR. . It's 17 duties falls under the appointed SHU 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to 19 was that? 20 be done daily, within the unit. Not just the 20 MR. : Which was the Lieutenant 21 supervision of the line staff that work the 21 (Phonetic Siiiiii:17:10). 22 unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. 22 MR. And , common 23 Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is 23 spelling? 24 done. 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. Okay. 25 MR. : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00111834 21 22 1 Activities Lieutenants". 1 MR. -- for the interview, 2 MR. : Which are on the day of the 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 incident? 3 people - jiff" can reference the two. 4 MR. Yeah. And would you like 4 MR. : Right. All right. So it 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 5 iir shere, it would have been la 6 August 10th? 6 ivould have been the 7 MR. Hmm-mm. 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 MR. No? Okay. Do you know 8 2019. 9 who it was? 9 MR. And is it ME? 10 MR. : So, I believe the morning 10 MR. 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I 12 . Perfect. And what times did she work 13 just said her name. 13 from? 14 MR. I can show you this. 14 MR. : At that time, the shift they 15 MR. : Yeah. 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 MR. So, I'm showing you a 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 17 MR. : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 -- 19 MR. That is correct. 20 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : And then, I'm assuming 21 MR. -- 2019. 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 MR. : Right. 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 MR. And you can keep them in 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. 24 front of ou for the -- 24 Correct? 25 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : That is - yeah - that was the 23 24 1 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 was IIII. Lieutenant IIII. He informed me - 2 MR. . Okay. 3 or I guess he became aware of the incident, I 3 MR. : They worked Monday through 4 believe, at 6:30 that morning. 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 MR. : Okay. And so, I already 5 MR. : Okay. 6 asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The 6 MR. ro, Lieutenant was on 7 Operations Lieutenant and the Activities 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 Lieutenant are responsible for day to day 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 operations and maintaining order for three 9 drill -- 10 shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness 10 MR. • Okay. 11 Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility 11 MR. -- that he would attend. 12 in the event of an emergency incident, such as 12 MR. : Do you know if he was on 13 fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 a - during these instances - was there an 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 Emergency Pre aredness Lieutenant? 15 But was on the 9th? 16 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. Mat me see here. 17 MR. Who was that? 17 MR. : And you can just say, was 18 MR. : I believe it was Lieutenant 18 he on the schedule? 19 19 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 MR. . Lieutenant IIII? Okay. 20 here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, 21 MR. Mm-hmm. 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 MR. Was Lieutenant El off 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 that day, thou 23 Friday. 24 MR. : Lieutenant IIII was, I 24 MR. : All right. So, that 25 believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00111835 25 26 1 Correct? 1 MR. : All right. " 2 MR. : That is correct. He was not 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 there, no. 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 MR. : Great. And would his 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 he's gones_gf_is -? 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 MR. 'I'll': Normally, due to our staffing 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 11 criteria, a ropriate housing varies." 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 12 MR. : Correct. 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 13 MR. : All right. " 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 17 MR. M Correct. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 18 MR. : "Dunn the first 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 assigned. 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 MR. : And that post, like you 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 MR. : No. 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 MR. : So, Saturday. Great. 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 MR. : No, it's not. 25 accommodated with water, visits to the 27 28 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 1 MR. : Now, as far as food, I know - 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 2 and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 3 inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. 4 MR. : Yes. So, most days, from the 4 MR. : Okay. 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 5 MR. : They're provided water. 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 6 They're provided to go to the bathroom. The 7 until it closed. 7 inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. 8 MR. : All right. And that's 8 However, I believe that he was offered meals 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 9 from the vendin machine. I'm not sure. 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 10 MR. : Okay. 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 11 MR. : I can't remember as far as - 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 12 because I didn't remember there was an issue 13 Monday -- 13 with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, 14 MR. No. That's -- 14 or to address it. I just can't remember -- 15 MR. : -- that's seven days a 15 MR. Sure. 16 week? 16 MR. -- what was done. 17 MR. that's seven days a week. 17 MR. Would the Attorneys be 18 MR. : All right. So, was it 18 allowed to bring him in food? 19 almost ever day? 19 MR. : No. No, no, no, no, no. 20 MR. : Every day. 20 MR. No? 21 MR. : Okay. And was his food 21 MR. No. 22 brought to him there, then? 22 MR. Okay. 23 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No. No. No. No. Outside 24 MR. Okay. How would he 24 food would not have been allowed. 25 obtain food? 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00111836 29 30 1 MR. : So, I can't tell you if he 1 Unit Manager. 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 2 MR. . Okay. And who was that? 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 3 MR. : Which that was, I believe, 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 4 Mr. Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 5 MR. • Right. 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 6 MR. : At which time, I, you know, I 7 I can't remember. 7 said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he 8 MR. : Sure. All right. That's 8 was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 9 said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 10 call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed 11 that you made with Epstein? 11 that when the inmate - we would reasonably 12 MR. : The third one. So, that 12 attempt to always facilitate a phone call for 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 13 the inmate, especially while him being housed 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 14 in the Special Housin Unit. So, I said to the 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 15 Unit Manager, Mr. , I said, Mr. 16 MR. 8:00 p.m. on August 9? 16 are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, 17 MR. : 8:00 p.m. 17 well, are you going to be able to monitor the 18 MR. Okay. 18 call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I 19 MR. : Correct. So, I was actually 19 got no problem with that. I said, well, I 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 20 don't have a problem. Just make sure that you 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 21 follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 22 when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 23 it has to be monitored by staff, and the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 24 number, and who they're talking to has to be 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his 25 placed in a log. 31 32 1 MR. : Okay. 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. ro, I said, make sure that 2 MR. : Out line. 3 takes place. I'm good with it. So, that's 3 MR. : Sure. 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 institution. 5 MR. : And they're not recorded 6 MR. : All riiiiiiiSo, this 6 7 conversation happened with , in front of 7 MR. : Right. 8 Mr. Epstein? 8 MR. • -- and that's why you 9 MR...es, it did. 9 said make sure that it's -- 10 MR. : Okay. And that's the 10 MR. : Yes. 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 11 MR. • -- and did you -- 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR...es. 13 MR. : -- did you tell him, at 14 MR. : Was there a certain line 14 all, to document what was -? 15 that they should have used? 15 MR. : Yes. I told him to ensure 16 MR. : Yes. It's a secure line. 16 that he is present, that - the protocol is, 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 17 because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 18 sure that you're present at the phone call. I 19 that's just for inside of the institution 19 said, make sure that it's logged. And when you 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 20 dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 21 stay on the line and said, he says, well, I 22 MR. Would that be called a 22 want to call my Attorney. Who was your 23 legal line? 23 Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. 24 MR. : Yeah. It would be just an 24 When they answer the phone, I said, this is 25 out. This would be a out, out. 25 MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00111837 33 34 1 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what 1 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. 2 is your can log it. 2 MR. : That phone call? 3 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. rnd the time that it's 4 MR. Or that log? 5 logged. And then, you give the phone to the 5 MR. : Like, after he documented 6 inmate, and then you sit there while they're on 6 it. 7 the phone. 7 MR. : It would be maintained, just 8 MR. And do you know if that 8 in a log. 9 was done? 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. Again, I don't know. 10 MR. : It wouldn't be brought for 11 MR. : You don't know? 11 anyone's review. You know? It would just be, 12 MR. : I just ensured. That's it. 12 hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I 13 If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, I 13 could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And 14 said, are you going to SHU? And are you going 14 then, I can tell you, and look, when he was 15 to be able to monitor phone calls? 15 given a call. 16 MR. But you don't know if -- 16 MR. : So, it goes into a 17 MR. He didn't say yes. 17 specific E stein file? 18 MR. -- he wrote up anything? 18 MR. : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It 19 MR. I don't know what he did. 19 doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It 20 MR. Okay. 20 goes into a book for monitored calls, for all 21 MR. I just ensured that I told 21 the inmates, and legal calls. 22 him. 22 MR. : For all inmates. So, not 23 MR. IIIIII::: Sure. 23 just Epstein. It would be all -- 24 MR. What needed to be done. 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : And what would typically 25 MR. . -- inmates? Okay. 35 36 1 MR. : It would be a green logbook. 1 man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I 2 You know, and it would have the name of the 2 said, did you have a good visit? And he said, 3 inmate, and who they called, the number, the 3 yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all 4 time. I don't know if the duration is on 4 right, man. 5 there. But it will the person who also 5 MR. : Okay. 6 monitored the call. So, you know, all that 6 MR. You know? 7 information. But it wasn't something, like, a 7 MR. : No cause for concern? 8 form that was filled out, and then it was 8 MR. : No, because every time we had 9 placed in the inmate's file. 9 that interaction, it was always pleasant. It 10 MR. : Sure. 10 was neverliiiiiiiii 11 MR. Or central file. 11 MR. : Okay. It says, " 12 MR. : Sure. 12 was made aware of the possibility that Epstein 13 MR. No. It wasn't like that. 13 would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's 14 MR. : And do you know if that 14 arrival. was not present when inmate 15 log in the book was filled out? 15 Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein 16 MR. M. don't know. 16 was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was 17 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 17 fit for general population, and was ultimately 18 When you met with Epstein on that night, how 18 placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places 19 was his demeanor? 19 inmates under three categories of close 20 MR. : It was fine. He was 20 supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk 21 cheerful. 21 for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological 22 MR. He was cheerful. 22 observation. And three: suicide watch." 23 MR. : You know, he didn't look 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I 24 MR. Is that all correct? 25 said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, 25 MR. : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00111838 37 38 1 MR. Okay. So, who made the 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 decision to place him in the Special Housing 2 MCC? 3 Unit, specifically, and why? 3 MR. : There is only one secured 4 MR. : Okay. So, basically, the 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 rationale for placement of the inmate in the 5 MR. Okay. Not -- 6 Special Housing Unit would have been a decision 6 MR. But however, we do have -- 7 ultimately made by the Warden. They would have 7 MR. -- Ten South (Phonetic 8 took the criteria of the inmate. They would 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? 9 MR. • -- Ten South. 10 You know, what would be the likelihood of him 10 MR. Okay. 11 being endangered if he would be placed in 11 MR. : And Ten South is for, I 12 general population? His culpability. Can he 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 cope while being inside of a general housing 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 unit? So, the determinations was made between 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 MR. And who was the Warden at 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 that time? 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 MR. : It was Mr. 19 MR. Okay. And what is SAMS 20 MR. And do you know how to 20 stand for? 21 spell that last name? 21 MR. : I believe - I can't remember. 22 MR. : It would bell- 22 MR. Okay. But is it, like, 23 MR. • Apostrophe. 23 S-A-M-S? 24 MR. -- apostrophe, 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Thank you, sir. Are 25 MR. : Okay. Like, an acronym, 39 40 1 though? 1 MCC. 2 MR. : It is an acronym. 2 MR. Okay. And then, that's 3 MR. : Okay. And that is not 3 where I meant by, is, so the executive staff 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 4 wasn't able to -- 5 Attorney General -- 5 MR. • I don't believe so. 6 MR. W Yeah. 6 MR. • -- independently -? 7 MR. : -- is that -? Okay. 7 MR. No. We were not. 8 MR. : That's going to be - yeah. 8 MR. Okay. Were there many 9 That's - 9 inmates housed within Ten South at that time? 10 MR. 1111111111: All right. Was there any 10 MR. : No. I believe, at that time, 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 11 we may have had a total of four to five. Of 12 units? 12 course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin 13 MR. : No. 13 Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff 14 MR. : Could he have been placed 14 (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also 15 in one of those units? 15 had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't 16 MR. : I'm sure he could have. 16 remember his name. But basically, these are 17 MR. : But I mean, by executive 17 inmates that have made crimes against the 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 18 United States, which it was deemed that those 19 the -? 19 inmates would be in that Special Management 20 MR. : I believe they would have had 20 Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the 21 to make a s ecial concessions for the inmate. 21 general 22 MR. . Okay. 22 MR. : Was this, like, a 23 MR. : They would have to, you know, 23 terroristiiiiilof people? 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 24 MR. : I would say some of them were 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at 25 terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00111839 41 42 1 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 general po ulation unit. 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 MR. : Sure. 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 MR. : He would go - normally, guys 5 there. 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 before, yijigigilliike Florence. 7 MR. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 MR. : Okay. 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 MR. re would be at the ADX 9 MR. : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 11 MR. : Yes. 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 12 MR. : And video monitored at 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 13 all times? 14 threats against the United States, or there was 14 MR. Yes. 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 15 MR. : Okay. So, it's like your 16 found in cooperation with outside Agencies that 16 maximum security type? 17 was trying to determent of (Indiscernible 17 MR. : That would be the highest 18 *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United 18 security that an inmate at MCC would be placed 19 States. These kind of guys was put in that 19 in. 20 unit. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : Yeah. Could be placed in. 22 MR. ruys you wouldn't want in the 22 Yeah. 23 general po ulation because -- 23 MR. : But the executive team 24 MR. : Yeah. 24 never discussed that? 25 MR. : -- of their recruitment 25 MR. : No. 43 44 1 MR. Okay. ' advised 1 MR. : Remember that, no. 2 that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate 2 MR. : Sure. "At Epstein's 3 and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid 3 request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist." 4 having one." What type of behavior did he -? 4 Do you know who he made that request to? Would 5 MR. : I believe that Epstein and - 5 it have been SHU staff? 6 when he first came in - he was doing self- 6 MR. : He probably would have made 7 manipulative behavior. You know, he was 7 those requests to any of the staff that may 8 showing passive resistant activity, as far as, 8 have been monitoring him at that time. Because 9 you know, when they're taking meals, or 9 if he was placed on psychological observation 10 wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when 10 at that time, psychological observation, you 11 they're giving him direction. You know, he 11 would have had to have a staff person that sat 12 would sit in his cell, and he wouldn't talk. 12 there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate 13 You know, I believe he wasn't taking meals at 13 couldn't have monitored him. 14 one point. He was refusing to take showers. 14 MR. Okay. And that, is that, 15 Things of those that nature. 15 like, 24/7? 16 MR. : And the sentence 16 MR. : That would have been 24 hours 17 continues, including requesting to see a 17 of that. a week. 18 Psychologist. 18 MR. : So, a staff member is 19 MR. : Yeah. 19 just -- 20 MR. Is that part of it? 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. Yes. 21 MR. -- would just sit there 22 MR. Okay. Did he say why he 22 and watch 23 wanted to see a Psychologist? 23 MR. Correct. 24 MR. : I don't know. 24 MR. Communicate with him, or 25 MR. No? 25 no? EFTA00111840 45 46 1 MR. : Yeah, of course. 1 providing his medication or whatever it is. 2 MR. . Okay. 2 So, you just don't want to just sit there and 3 MR. : I mean, and that's, you know, 3 allow this inmate just, you know, if he's going 4 encouraged. I mean, you know, and not have - 4 to be detrimentally could be harm to staff, or 5 you want it to - even though the inmate is 5 himself, you want to ensure that you notify 6 placed in that situation, again, we're talking 6 someone. 7 about humanit here. 7 MR. : Okay. "So, following 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 this assessment, Epstein was initially placed 9 MR. : You know, you want to gage 9 on suicide watch. He was later interviewed 10 this guy's mental acuity. Meaning that, the 10 again, and downgraded to psychological 11 inmate, you want to know how he's feeling, how 11 observation." 12 he's doin . 12 MR. Min-hmm. 13 MR. . Sure. 13 MR. : Now, just for the suicide 14 MR. : Is he improving? Or is he 14 watch and psychological observation, where are 15 declining? Because if he's declining, and you 15 they located? 16 can actually see it, you want to contact 16 MR. : Those would be conducted 17 somebody. You know, if this guy is in there 17 downstairs, on the second floor, in the Health 18 being very, you know, belligerent, he's being 18 Services area. 19 passive aggressive, or active resistant, or 19 MR. And that's outside of the 20 displaying signs of violence. You want to make 20 SHU. Correct? 21 sure you notify someone. You're not just going 21 MR. That is correct. 22 to sit there and allow this guy to do self-harm 22 MR. . And that was prior to any 23 to himself and/or a staff when they come to the 23 attempt on his life or anything like that? 24 door, to provide his services. You know? Such 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 as taking him to shower; providing his meals; 25 MR. Okay. Was that - ah, 47 48 1 that's okay. "After some time, he was returned 1 staff is - oh, I'm sorry - every 30 minutes, I 2 to the SHU. began hearing talk that 2 believe, I can't remember. It's been a while. 3 Epstein was trying to get back on suicide 3 But, you know, a staff member - it's every 30 4 watch." 4 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the 5 MR. Min-hmm. 5 inmate is doin inside of his cell. 6 MR. : "Information like this is 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 usually generated from rounds, kites -", and 7 MR. : You know? So, you know, what 8 kites are notes, correct? 8 is he doing? The inmate is facing to the right. 9 MR. . Correct. 9 The inmate is facing away from staff. The 10 MR. : And notes from inmates, 10 inmate is, you know, doing what, or he makes 11 specificaiiiiiorrect? 11 statements, those statements will be written in 12 MR. : It could be - yes - that 12 the log. 13 would be inmate correspondence. 13 MR. : Okay. It says, "On or 14 MR. : Yeah. "And monitoring of 14 about July 23, 2019, Epstein was found 15 phone calls and letters." 15 unresponsive, on the floor of his cell, with a 16 MR. M Correct. l 16 homemade piece of fabric on his chest." When 17 MR. : So, the hearing of talk, 17 you say a "homemade piece of fabric," can you 18 that's all based upon inmate talk? 18 explain that a little bit? 19 MR. : That would have been - all 19 MR. : Okay. Basically, a homemade 20 that staff. 20 piece of fabric. It could be anything. 21 MR. Okay. Staff, as well? 21 Because it's out of the Special Housing, that's 22 MR. : You know, staffing sitting 22 what we'riiiiiiiiilabout. Right? 23 there, and, you know, especially when he's on 23 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I'm 24 suicide watch. You know, staff are taking 24 talking about specifically in this instance. 25 notes. So, it's every 1S minutes, you know, 25 Do you know what is meant by "found on the EFTA00111841 49 50 1 floor, with a homemade piece of fabric on his 1 MR. Okay. Great. And did 2 chest"? 2 you - aiiiiiirt. We talk about him in a little 3 MR. : It could have been fragments 3 bit. " heard from his staff that Epstein 4 from a t-shirt. It could have been fragments 4 may have been faking unconsciousness." Do you 5 from sheets. It could have been fragment -- 5 know who told that? 6 MR. : So, like, pieces of cloth 6 MR. : Well, basically, in 7 7 memorandum, I remember when it was reported to 8 MR. cloth -- 8 me, and I made my report, I believe it was in 9 MR. -- that they could tie 9 the report of incident by Lieutenant 10 together. 10 MR. Oka 11 MR. : It was tied together, or -- 11 MR. And I 12 MR. : Sure. 12 believe that she had put out an e-mail, which 13 MR. -- you know, (Indiscernible 13 concluded that the inmate was showing 14 *00:41:14), to make some type of homemade 14 manipulative behavior through his statements, 15 fashioned -- 15 and what was observed by Medical staff. 16 MR. Did you see it at all, 16 MR. : Okay. 17 though, yourself? 17 MR. ro, basically, they were 18 MR. : I can't remember. 18 saying that the incident didn't occur as the 19 MR. : Okay. Sure. "Epstein's 19 inmate ma have to make it look or occur. 20 cell mate had flagged the attention of a staff 20 MR. : Okay. And we're going to 21 member, who handcuffed the cell mate, and 21 get into in a second. 22 removed Epstein, to bring him to the Medical 22 MR. M.o. 23 Unit." Do you recall, at that time, who his 23 MR. : "Because he was not 24 cell mate was? 24 observed opening his eyes and making other 25 MR. : Tartaglione. 25 suspicious movements not consistent with an 51 52 1 unconscious state." Or sorry. "Because he was 1 then, they write a brief synopsis, and then, 2 observed opening his eyes and making other 2 it's put in a packet, and then, ultimately, SIS 3 suspicious movements not consistent with an 3 Department will investigate it, especially if 4 unconscious state. Epstein was medically 4 we're having an assault, which would have been 5 assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed 5 a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of 6 that his cell mate, Nicholas Tartaglione -", T- 6 another. So, pictures would have been taken. 7 A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-N-E -- 7 Clinical assessments of both inmates would have 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 been taken. Witness statements would have been 9 MR. • -- tried to take his 9 taken. All of these things would have been 10 life." Was that investigated? 10 done, and it oes into an investiiiiiiiiiacket. 11 MR. : I believe - no, I mean -- 11 MR. Sure. So, 12 MR. : Sure. 12 - Lieutenant - would have -? 13 MR. -- I can't remember, but I 13 MR. : Would have been -- 14 believe a report of incident may have been 14 MR. Created it and provided 15 done. 15 it to SIS? 16 MR. • Okay. 16 MR. : -- and would have created it, 17 MR. : And primarily, when a report 17 and for it to move on. 18 of incident is generated - so, any time that an 18 MR. : And do you know if there 19 incident happens in the institution, I'm going 19 was any credibility found to the claim that 20 to walk you through this. The Lieutenant 20 Epstein made, that this other - his cellmate - 21 that's on shift is supposed to do the initial 21 had tried to take his life? 22 fact finding. The gathering of evidence. 22 MR. : I don't believe there was any 23 Okay? 23 credibilit that was ever concluded -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. rnd all of these things. And 25 MR. : -- that that incident EFTA00111842 53 54 1 happened. 1 MR. : I don't know exactly. So, 2 MR. And do you know anything 2 I can't really determine or give you that type 3 about when he was initially found, if the 3 of, you know I don't have expertise -- 4 homemade rope or whatever it was, was found 4 MR. Sure. 5 around his neck, or it says in this, "On his 5 MR. -- in that area. So -. 6 chest," anything with that, with, you know, do 6 MR. But the information that 7 you know what I mean? Like, if someone was 7 was provided to you suggested that he tried to 8 trying to hang themself, if it came on their 8 take his own life, not that the cell mate tried 9 chest, do you know anything about how that may 9 to take is life? 10 have happened? 10 MR. : Correct. That it was 11 MR. : I mean, forensically, I 11 inconclusive that the inmate had - inmate 12 wouldn't know. I'm not a -- 12 Tartaglione - had tried to kill this guy. Or 13 MR. : Sure. 13 tried to do any self-harm to this guy. So, you 14 MR. : -- an investigator on that 14 have to - so, like, you have to take an 15 level. So, I can't really tell you the 15 advantage because it's one inmates' word 16 position of any type of homemade fashioned item 16 against another. 17 that would be used to facilitate a suicide 17 MR. : Sure. 18 attempt, or -- 18 MR. : So, when the investigation 19 MR. • Sure. 19 comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would 20 MR. -- an assault attempt. 20 have been interviewed; inmate Tartaglione would 21 That's not m level. 21 have been interviewed, at which time, you would 22 MR. Sure. 22 have took those statements, you would have 23 MR. : Again, I'm trying to remember 23 waived, and then you would have took into 24 what it was, or what was used, but again -- 24 consideration any witness statements, or 25 MR. • Mm-hmm. 25 anything that was observed during the clinical 55 56 1 assessment. So, that's why Health Services 1 killed four people, and then he buried them, 2 helps us out, because the inmates don't want 2 buried the victims somewhere up near Otisville 3 understand that everything they're doing, or 3 Prison. I think that's what it was. Back in 4 anything they're saying, is being entered on 4 the day. 5 that clinical assessment. 5 MR. • Okay. 6 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. : Yeah. Something like that. 7 MR. ro, that's where they were 7 MR. • So, he was actually in 8 saying that he wasn't - his actions may not 8 for murder though? 9 have been what they should have been for a 9 MR. : Yeah. It was murder. He was 10 person that was quasi supposed to had been 10 in for murder and whatever other stuff he was 11 assaulted. 11 doing. 12 MR. • Sure. 12 MR. • Okay. 13 MR. : Or if he was supposed to have 13 MR. : Doing in his capacity as a 14 been unconscious, you was displaying this type 14 Police Officer. 15 of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn't 15 MR. And who selected him and 16 there. So, I don't know what occurred. I'm 16 why? To be E stein's -- 17 just going by what was - the information that 17 MR. : Who selected him? 18 was relayed back to me. 18 MR. -- who selected him to be 19 MR. Absolutely. So, as far 19 Epstein's roommate, and why? 20 as Tartaglione -- 20 MR. : I don't remember who vetted 21 MR. : Correct. 21 Tartaglione. But what I will tell you is that, 22 MR. : -- what was he in for? 22 even though Tartaglione had a murder on his 23 MR. : I believe that Tartaglione 23 jacket, Tartaglione also was an inmate that had 24 was responsible for - he was a former Police 24 issues being in general population. You 25 Officer, I believe - and I believe he had 25 understand what I'm saying? EFTA00111843 57 58 1 MR. Mm-hmm. Former Police 1 type of units. You know? So, he would have to 2 Officer? 2 go in general population, or he would go to 3 MR. : Former Police Officer. He 3 SHU. So, if the inmate fails the program and 4 had issues - because I've dealt with 4 said I'm not going to population, you can't 5 Tartaglione at Brooklyn - so, he was up on one 5 force me. So, when you do his assessment, his 6 of the Units in Brooklyn, and he had issues 6 Unit Team does the assessment, Psychology does 7 with those inmates in those blocks, where 7 their assessment, Health Services does that 8 they're made for people who are sex offenders. 8 assessment, and say, well, hey, this guy is 9 For inmates that have issues with - when they 9 clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded 10 go to population - general, they can't cope. 10 him to go. But the inmate said, well, you 11 Formal law enforcement. These type of guys are 11 know, I'm a 306. 306 is refusal of programs. 12 in that unit. So, you don't really have that 12 I'm not going. So, put me in SHU. So, that's 13 much issues in those type of units because 13 how he eniciiiiiiiISHU. 14 these guys are going to do their time, or await 14 MR. : Sure. So, he was in SHU 15 their sentencing, and then move on. So, you 15 already? 16 don't really have a lot of violence. But this 16 MR...eah. 17 guy was alwa s, always in the mix of something. 17 MR. : And do you believe he was 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 a good placement for Epstein? 19 MR. : But we couldn't put him on 19 MR. : Well, at the time, again, you 20 the general population unit, and you just can't 20 would have to be mindful, we don't - how could 21 throw him in SHU. You know what I'm saying? 21 I put this? - inmates are not placed in cells 22 Just because. You just can't. So, in 22 based on race, or - but however - or gang 23 Brooklyn, we had the ability to put him in - I 23 affiliations, all of these things that, you 24 think it was in K82. I can't remember. When 24 know, but however, you vet inmates. So, you 25 he goes to MCC, you know, they don't have those 25 say, okay, well, you have guys up there that - 59 60 1 at MCC - that were facing murder charges. 1 MR. : Again, what I will say is, is 2 There's a lot of them. 2 that I will tell you, like you said, my 3 MR. : Sure. 3 statements before, that it was brought to my 4 MR. : Hey, I mean, if they're in 4 attention that inmate Epstein was doing 5 SHU, that means they can't cope on the outside. 5 manipulative behavior, kind of testing the 6 They can't cope in the general population unit. 6 water to see what he could get away with. 7 So, we would look at him just like another 7 MR. : Sure. 8 inmate. 8 MR. : Being his initial 9 MR. Mm-hmm. 9 incarceration. Probably not too familiar with 10 MR. He never hurt another inmate. 10 being in jail, but however, he's a smart guy. 11 MR. And that was going to be 11 He kind of figured out what he could do, in 12 my next question. So, he wasn't known to 12 order for him, one) not to go to GP; two) try 13 assault a• 13 to get in SHU and try to get a cell by himself. 14 MR. : Bro, he never assaulted 14 That's kind of where he wanted it to go. 15 another inmate. 15 MR. : So then, he wanted to be 16 MR. Okay. 16 in SHU by himself -- 17 MR. : Yeah, he got a murder beef, 17 MR. Of course. 18 okay, that's fine. But guess what? He never 18 MR. -- and that may have been 19 hurt any other inmates while incarcerated. 19 why he -- 20 MR. : Sure. So, taking, 20 MR. Yes. 21 though, that he was incarcerated due to murder, 21 MR. • -- said that -? Okay. 22 though, and that Epstein claimed that he tried 22 So, you believe that he made the claim against 23 to murder him, do you think that - do you 23 Tartaglione because he wanted a cell by 24 believe that there was any credibility to that 24 himself. 25 claim? 25 MR. : That's in my belief, after EFTA00111844 61 62 1 looking at everything, and everything that was 1 MR. : That wouldn't be a 2 done, I believe so. I think that would be 2 Lieutenant's urview. 3 accurate. 3 MR. • Sure. 4 MR. : Okay. It says, "He was 4 MR. : A Lieutenant, most of the 5 placed back on suicide watch for approximately 5 people - and then, I will tell you, I didn't 6 one week." So, that happened the 23rd, and it 6 understand SAMS placement until I became a 7 brought him up to about July 30th. Is that 7 Deputy Ca tain. 8 correct? 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. Miii-hmm. Correct. 9 MR. : All right? And I understood 10 MR. : Of 2019. "Unlike his 10 that, you know, these guys, you just can't put 11 first and previous placement on suicide watch, 11 a guy as a SAMS. That identifier, that's an 12 Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies 12 identifier that has to come from Central 13 reported in his incarceration history. The 13 Office. 14 staff was tasked with determining whether 14 MR. • Okay. 15 Epstein was in fact suicidal, or using 15 MR. BOP Central Office. 16 manipulative tactics to avoid assignment of a 16 MR. • So, if a Lieutenant - so, 17 cell mate. After suicide watch, Epstein was 17 if we're talking Lieutenants, and they're 18 placed on psychological observation, and 18 saying, he should have been in Ten South -- 19 eventually returned to the SHU." Now, again, 19 MR. : Well -- 20 and just to go back, this Ten South thing, that 20 MR. : -- but they don't know 21 didn't never - were Lieutenants bringing it to 21 what they're talking about, basically? 22 you? Like he he should be on Ten South? 22 MR. : No. Because that identifier 23 MR. : No. 23 - because I believe you know this - it's an 24 MR. : You don't recall any 24 identifier. 25 Lieutenants saying that? 25 MR. Mm-hmm. 63 64 1 MR. : That's put on an inmate just 1 billionaire, or whatever, or due to his issues 2 like - I will give you an example - sentencing 2 of his proclivity to sexual deviances, and all 3 designations. Oka ? 3 of these things, he wouldn't be a good 4 MR. Sure. 4 candidate to go to GP. But guess what? That 5 MR. : That's their job. 5 responsibility, that identifier, that moniker 6 MR. Mm-hmm. 6 should have been put on Epstein before he even 7 MR. : They're going to do, say, 7 came to MCC. 8 what Security level inmates, what type of 8 MR. : Sure. So, do you know if 9 prisons they go to, if they're a transgender, 9 this is something - obviously, it sounds like 10 you know, all of these different things, all 10 it would have been out of your hands - would 11 that stuff is going to come from that Central 11 that be something that the Warden would discuss 12 Office, to say, okay, we looked at this 12 with, what? The Regional Director? 13 particular inmate's history, or PSI, and we 13 MR. : That's right. The Warden 14 feel that this identifier needs to be placed on 14 would have had that discussion between SIA, the 15 this inmate. So, a SAMS identification, or 15 Regional staff, and also, it goes to the 16 moniker, put on an inmate, executive staff 16 Region, the Central Office staff over 17 can't put that on there. 17 Correctioiiiiiiiiiiming. 18 MR. . Sure. 18 MR. : Okay. And you were never 19 MR. That's going to come from 19 20 Central Office. 20 MR. And designations. 21 MR. Okay. So, although a 21 MR. • -- involved with any of 22 Lieutenants have thought -. 22 that? 23 MR. : They may have - yeah - they 23 MR. : I would never be in any of 24 may have thought and said, yeah, due to, yeah, 24 those conversations. 25 his situation, of him being a multi- 25 MR. Okay. Fair enough. So, EFTA00111845 65 66 1 who would be the two to - I guess the Warden 1 and Mr. , we had this discussion. 2 would be the right person to go back to and 2 MR. Okay. 3 just say, hey, did this ever come up in 3 MR. Because like I said earlier 4 conversation? 4 in my statement, even though the AW would have 5 MR. Right. 5 been my next in succession, as far as my 6 MR. : Okay. Okay. It says, 6 Supervisor, however, I did have conversations 7 "At the direction of the Warden, 7 directly with the Warden, as far as for 8 initiated the process of compiling possible 8 security situations (Indiscernible *00:57:32) 9 cell mates for Epstein, vetting them and 9 in the institution. 10 submittingi2E4idates to the Warden for his 10 MR. : Sure. 11 review. and his staff fully screened 11 MR. : So, we sat there, and he 12 potential cell mates, and reported their 12 wanted me to compile names, and vet inmates 13 determinations up to the Warden. Efrain Reyes 13 that would be possible good candidates as a 14 -", E-F-R-A-I-N, R-E-Y-E-S, "- was selected and 14 cell mate for E stein moving forward. 15 housed in a cell with Epstein." 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR...hat's right. 16 MR. : So, I brought a compiled, I 17 MR. : And it says, "The 17 believe I had ten names, and he and I went 18 Assistant Warden," but I'm assuming they mean 18 through those names, we brought it down to 19 the Associate Warden, "Warden and Regional 19 three. Then those three names, Mr. 20 Director were notified." 20 because I sat there - when he called the 21 MR. ...Okay. This is how that went 21 Regional Director, on the phone, and he and the 22 down. Mr. sat with me - not with the 22 Regional Director vetted those three names. 23 AW present - and we wanted to - we started 23 MR. : Sure. 24 talking about security protocols, moving 24 MR. rnd then, I sat there, and I 25 forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That's with me 25 was privy to that conversation. I sat there, 67 68 1 and he gave them, and he faxed him the whole 1 MR. : -- as Epstein, I believe, or 2 makeup of all three of them, and the Regional 2 I can't remember. 3 Director said, no I want this guy. 3 MR. : Okay. Was he - when he 4 MR. So, the Regional Director 4 was being vetted - was he close to, like, a 5 5 release date or anything like that? An 6 MR. EYes. 6 anticipated release date? 7 MR. : -- ultimately made the 7 MR. : No one knew that. Because 8 decision? 8 this is what you need to understand about MCC. 9 MR. : Yes. 9 MCC and MDC are basically jails. They're not 10 MR. So, give me a little 10 prisons. 11 background on Reyes. What was he in for? 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : I believe Reyes was a 12 MR. rt's a jail. So, that means 13 Hispanic, older male. I believe that 13 if a guy goes to court, you know, you get 14 particular inmate was in for - I think he was 14 locked up, and then, the next day, you might go 15 in for child - some type of sexual stuff. I 15 to court, the Judge might say, no, I'm 16 can't remember. 16 releasing ou. We don't know. 17 MR. Some kind of a charge 17 MR. : Sure. 18 with -- 18 MR. : The only time we'll know is 19 MR. Charge, dealing with -- 19 when the inmates come back from court, where is 20 MR. -- sexual -- 20 this guy at? He was released. 21 MR. -- with, you know, those type 21 MR. : Gotcha. 22 of charges sexual -- 22 MR. rkay. Now, we got this guy 23 MR. • So, a similar type of -- 23 still in our count. So, if they don't bring a 24 MR. similar type of charges -- 24 transfer order, our count is bad. So, they're 25 MR. . -- charge. 25 going to bring the transfer order back with EFTA00111846 69 70 1 them for court line. These guys got released. 1 Epstein is that orange tag guy. He's supposed 2 So, normally, court line is over before 4:00. 2 to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU 3 So, we try to get these guys up. Do some 3 Lieutenant wasn't there. But he would have 4 inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do. 4 called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don't 5 But however, we don't know if an inmate goes 5 have a cell. 6 out to court if they're coming back. 6 MR. : Yeah. So, how long did 7 MR. : Sure. 7 it take to vet? You know, I know you said you 8 MR. : However, there is times when 8 started it with ten, and then it brought down 9 they put out a roster, and it's given to - as 9 to three, and then the Regional Director 10 far as all Correctional Officers that work the 10 ultimately decided the one. But how long does 11 units, and it will say, court line, inmate 11 that process take? 12 Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That 12 MR. : I believe it took - I'm 13 means that he has to come downstairs with all 13 thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took 14 belongings. So, if they say it, that means 14 a day. 15 he's not coming back. That's either he's 15 MR. : Okay. 16 transferring to another BOP facility, or he's 16 MR. : I mean, we actually went - 17 going to be released to the street. 17 and, you know, I don't know - I know either the 18 MR. : Okay. 18 Warden and I was having a lengthy 19 MR. : But I can guarantee you that 19 conversations, because the Warden wanted to 20 that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes 20 ensure - Warden philosophy when 21 was on that day, it didn't say WAR. Because it 21 dealing with Mr. Epstein was this: he's another 22 would have said WAB, the first thing that that 22 inmate. 23 OIC should have said, that's my orange tag guy. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, 24 MR. rnd what he tried to try to 25 and I made them put them up on the board. 25 get across to exec staff, and what he tried to 71 72 1 get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to 1 situations with Epstein where it showed that 2 when I disseminated down to the subordinate 2 his behavior was manipulative, when it shows 3 staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about 3 that he was trying to get things for 4 what his char es are? 4 unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to 5 MR. : Sure. 5 get anything that would benefit him, we had to 6 MR. : Or since he's sensationalized 6 take some different protocols. We had to take 7 in the media. Nobody cares. 7 a different - the had to take a different -- 8 MR. : Of course. 8 MR. : Approach. 9 MR. : We're going to manage him 9 MR. : mindset with this guy, or 10 appropriately. Because if you know anything 10 the way we managed him had to change. Because 11 about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn 11 we already had this guy saying that he was 12 and MCC, we don't run those jails. The court 12 going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or 13 runs those ails. 13 whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, 14 MR. : Right. 14 moving forward, we put protocols in place that 15 MR. : So, and that's the truth, the 15 will prot2is_1,L25 an Agency. 16 court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says 16 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, speaking of 17 goes. So, and that's unfortunate, but that's 17 protocols, was it discussed, then, when you 18 neither here nor there. So, Mr. wanted 18 were vetting these, hey, we have inmates 19 the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, 19 constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is 20 he has certain charges, but we're going to make 20 moved, one of these other two that were down to 21 sure he gets everything that all the inmates 21 the three would be moved in with him? Was that 22 get when they come to MCC. The inmates are 22 discussed? 23 going to get proper care. The inmate is going 23 MR. : No. He would just basically 24 to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. 24 - because like I said, again, at MCC, you 25 Whatever it may be. But however, after those 25 wouldn't know how long the duration on the EFTA00111847 73 74 1 inmates sta 1 was meant for - it was, like, a stepdown from 2 MR. Sure. 2 Ten South, that only had one man cell 3 MR. You wouldn't know. 3 occupancy which on G-range. 4 MR. So, you just have to 4 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. Was that part of 5 start the vetting process -- 5 the Special Housing Unit? 6 MR. : Press it -- 6 MR. Mit-hmm. 7 MR. -- over again? 7 MR. : So, there is a part of 8 MR. -- all over again. 8 the Special Housing Unit that is a one-man 9 MR. Okay. 9 occupancy, and -- 10 MR. : Whoever is available in the 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 unit, that may be single-celled, because as you 11 MR. -- another part that has 12 know, our policy and protocols in the Bureau of 12 two-man occu ancy? 13 Prisons are dealing with restricted inmates, 13 MR. : That is correct. 14 and Special Housing Units, they cannot be 14 MR. Okay. And Epstein was 15 celled alone. 15 housed in the two-man occupancy? 16 MR. • And -- 16 MR. 17 MR. They must have a cell mate. 17 MR. : Was it ever discussed to 18 MR. • -- in the Special Housing 18 put him in one of the one-man occupancies? 19 Unit, ever one must have a cell mate? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. Mm-hmm. 20 MR. No? 21 MR. : Oh, I didn't know that. 21 MR. : Because all of those cells 22 So, every sin one needs to have a cell mate? 22 were filled with inmates that were vetted, that 23 MR. : Except - except, because it's 23 needed that t e of supervision. 24 one of the areas that we didn't discuss, 24 MR. : Okay. 25 outside of Ten South - there was a range that 25 MR. : You had inmates in there 75 76 1 that, if they was put with another inmate, 1 visited the SHU on multiple occasions, and 2 inside of the Special Housing Unit, they would 2 directed staff to be very alert and attentive 3 die. 3 about Epstein's special accommodations." So, 4 MR. And was part of that -- 4 when you say that about the SHU staff, did you 5 MR. Whey would be assaulted. So, 5 also inform the SHU staff that Epstein needed 6 we would have to make those considerations. 6 to have a cell mate? 7 So, the protocols of how we dealt with inmates, 7 MR. : Yes. 8 according to their situation -- 8 MR. Oh, so, they all were -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. Yes. 10 MR. M.- I believe it was sound. 10 MR. -- were aware? 11 But guess what? You can only - you're like the 11 MR. Yes. 12 coach - I can make the game plan, but if the 12 MR. Can you look at the - so, 13 players are not executing the game plan, whose 13 the SHU staff for both of August 9th and the 14 fault is that? Is it the coach? Or the player? 14 very early morning hours of August 10th - can 15 MR. : And exactly, and that's 15 you just list the people and let me know if you 16 what we're doing here, we're Monday morning 16 informed those people? 17 quarterbacking. We're just saying, like, all 17 MR. : So, basically, my hours of 18 right, this is - and that's why we're going 18 work were normally from - let's just say 7:30 19 back through it. So, "The Warden directed 19 to 4:00. 20 on multiple occasions that Epstein 20 MR. : Sure. 21 needed a cell mate at all times, and 21 MR. : So, I ensured that it wasn't 22 verbally informed his Lieutenants the same. 22 within one week, but it was a process of doing 23 repeatedly directed his SHU Lieutenant - 23 rounds. So I tr to hit every shift. 24 Lieutenant - that Epstein needed a cell 24 MR. : Sure. 25 mate at all times. Additionally, 25 MR. : So, I hit the day watch EFTA00111848 77 78 1 because that's the one I work. Evening watch, 1 MR. Absolutely. Can you just 2 I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys, 2 name the other people for the shifts after him? 3 this is the situation. Let's make sure that, 3 I think tiiiiiist 4 you know, we're paying attention. And then, 4 MR. : You got - now, M. Thomas. M. 5 morning watch, of course. 5 Thomas, what you need to understand is, that he 6 MR. : Okay. 6 would have been - because, you know, like I 7 MR. Eo 7 said - overtime. Non-custody. He's non- 8 MR. : So, beginning at 8:00 8 custody staff. I don't have conversations with 9 a.m., then, on August 9th, can you just look to 9 him. 10 who - and name the people - can you just name 10 MR. Okay. So, Michael Thomas 11 who was in the SHU, and if you've ever had a 11 12 conversation with them, if they were aware. 12 MR. So, that mean -- 13 MR. I. Okay. Let me see here. 13 MR. • -- may not have known? 14 Well, we had . I've talked to 14 MR. -- right, because 15 Perry Joiner Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was 15 realistically, the morning watch and evening 16 in there. was one of the guys 16 watch shift, eo le don't like to come to work. 17 that was u there as a Rec Officer. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. So, all -- 18 MR. : So, they - if you sign up for 19 MR. : Him. 19 overtime, you say, oh, SHU two is open. Okay. 20 MR. -- all of those people 20 I'll take it. But you're non-custody. So, 21 were, you had conversations -- 21 that means anybody can work it. A teacher. A 22 MR. Mies. 22 Food Service foreman. 23 MR. : -- specifically with 23 MR. : Is the SHU easier to work 24 them, and the 24 than the other units? 25 MR. 'I'll': I've talked with these guys. 25 MR. : I wouldn't say it's easier, 79 80 1 but it's less labor intensive. 1 MR. : The windows or putting a 2 MR. : Okay. 2 towel over their beds, and blocking the light 3 MR. recause, in my opinion, from 3 from you being able to observe them. 4 when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing 4 MR. . But then, how -- 5 was always hard work because I'm going to tell 5 MR. And what I said about -- 6 you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I 6 MR. but how -. 7 mean vigilant, you have to understand, when 7 MR. -- but I want to go back 8 you're working that Unit, anything can happen. 8 because I know about the statement, about the 9 It could be quiet. But guess what? If you're 9 doors being left open. I'm talking about more 10 not walking, looking in those cells, testing 10 in general population, as far as when you're 11 the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure 11 making rounds, those type of things, you test. 12 the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors 12 Making sure the door is secure. Making sure 13 are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, 13 the food slots are secure. 14 sometimes doors was unlocked. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. . Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : As an Officer coming up, even 16 MR. Or flaps opened. To chase 16 as a Lieutenant, do you know that I've actually 17 doors, those 17 walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that's 18 MR. What is a flap? 18 supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide 19 MR. -- the Food Service flap. 19 open? 20 MR. Okay. Sure. 20 MR. : Wow. Ever at the MCC? 21 MR. : You know? Making rounds. 21 MR. : No. Because that wasn't my 22 Making sure the inmates are not - have 22 capacity. 23 coverings up when you open up the - what do you 23 MR. : Sure. 24 call it? 24 MR. What wasn't my job. But as a 25 MR. The window? 25 Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a EFTA00111849 81 82 1 Lieutenant making rounds, that's what I would 1 would have just been on there. Mr. Washington. 2 do. When I hit a unit, it wasn't just to talk 2 Yeah. I've talked to Mr. Washington because 3 to staff. I would walk in and look at the 3 Mr. Washington would go between evening watch, 4 Security protocols in the Unit. Is their fire 4 because I would talk to him. Clyde would work 5 extinguisher there? Good. Your phone work? 5 evening watch, so I've talked to him on evening 6 Computers work? Hey, let's walk the block. 6 watch. He was working morning watch because 7 Pulling on doors. Pulling on food slots. 7 these guys, it was such short of staff, that 8 Showing - tr in to train the Officers. 8 these SHU guys was working back to back shifts. 9 MR. : Sure. 9 Or staff. It didn't matter. People who wanted 10 MR. That's what I used to do. 10 money, or wanted to, you know, they would sign 11 MR. : Lead by example. 11 up for overtime. So, Clyde Washington was one 12 MR. : And guess what happens? You 12 of the regular SHU staff on the evening watch. 13 would find stuff, because people in hurry 13 Yeah, so, I talked to him. IIIIIIiiiPercy 14 enough to go home on that evening watch, them 14 Joiner. I talked with him. 15 inmates know their doors are locked. But they 15 would go between the three, and also 16 know they're not going to come out. Because if 16 the OIC, because he had the most knowledge out 17 they come out, there's a situation. But 17 of those guys. So, sometimes, he - even though 18 they'll situ there and leave it open. 18 he was the three - he was the one with OIC 19 MR. : So, back to this, though. 19 duties. 20 Can you look at the other SHU on, you know, the 20 MR. : And OIC stands for 21 subsequent shifts, if you had conversations 21 Officer-in-Charge? 22 with them? 22 MR. : Officer-in-Charge. 23 MR. Wo -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, Thomas, no. 24 MR. : So, he was doing all the 25 MR. : -- so, Thomas, because he 25 rosters. When it was time to move inmates 83 84 1 inside of the Unit, you know, he was in charge 1 MR. : The Warden -- 2 of ensuring those Sentry rosters was updated, 2 MR. Okay. 3 to ensure that the accountability of the unit 3 MR. : we sat down, he said, 4 was correct, to make sure that the inmates were 4 these are the things that I want to happen. 5 placed in their proper cells. Who was this? 5 First, I want you to make sure, walk through, 6 I'm sorry. Hold on. 6 talk about, make sure the staff is aware, 7 MR. : And so, in the SHU, we 7 (Indiscernible *01:13:53) are doing this, this, 8 want to be focusing on? 8 and this. And also, I know that you have - 9 MR. : T. Noel. T. Noel was one of 9 that I put out an e-mail. So, I just didn't 10 the -- 10 tell them - what do you call that? - by -- 11 MR. And that's Tova? 11 MR. So, you sent an e-mail to 12 MR. -- now, I know Tova. 12 all the SHU? 13 MR. Yeah. 13 MR. : Yes, I did. To all 14 MR. : Now, Tova, I can't remember 14 Correctional Services staff. And I think I 15 if I spoke to Tova. Tova - exactly. 15 still got it. 16 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. To all Correctional? 17 MR. rut I know that I had hit all 17 MR. Yeah. I still got -- 18 three shifts. Meaning that, day watch. I was 18 MR. Did you ever provide 19 always up there on day watch. Evening watch. 19 MR. -- that e-mail. 20 I stayed over because that's what the Warden 20 MR. : -- that to anyone? 21 wanted. He told me. Hey, make sure you go and 21 MR. Huh? 22 hit all three shifts. The Warden told me to do 22 MR. Did you ever provide that 23 it . So, if the Warden told me to do it, why 23 to anyone? 24 wouldn't Ili? 24 MR. No. And they never asked for 25 MR. : Sure. 25 it. EFTA00111850 85 86 1 MR. Can you absolutely 1 everyone, when you came in the BOP, everyone 2 provide that to us? 2 was given the opportunity, that when you went 3 MR. : Yeah. I think I have one, 3 through Correctional - those tactics that you 4 and we can go to my office, so I can show you. 4 learned in Glynco, it was about being a 5 I don't want you to think I - I will bring it 5 Correctional Officer. It wasn't about being a 6 up for you. 6 Dentist, or being a Chaplin, or whatever. It's 7 MR. : So, would have this 7 about Correctional principals. 8 Michael Thomas and Tova Noel been on that e- 8 MR. Okay. 9 mail? 9 MR. : Introduction to Correctional 10 MR. : Tova would have been, because 10 principals. 11 he's a Correctional Officer. But not Thomas. 11 MR. : But as far as there is an 12 MR. • Okay. 12 e-mail that just the people that are working in 13 MR. You understand? 13 the Correctional Officer -- 14 MR. • Okay. 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : But however, what we did was 15 MR. • -- okay. 16 16 MR. And I can show that to you. 17 MR. I thought everyone was 17 MR. Perfect. 18 considered a Correctional Officer. That's not 18 MR. have that. 19 the case? 19 MR. Awesome. 20 MR. : As far as when emergencies 20 MR. : Because it wasn't just me 21 happen. 21 just talking to them. I put out guidance, and 22 MR. Okay. 22 I kept putting out guidance. It wasn't like it 23 MR. : When emergencies happen, 23 was one time. I talked about inmates being 24 regardless of what your discipline is, we all 24 placed on suicide watch. I talked about 25 come together, it means you going to - 25 inmates putting on there - what is the 87 88 1 difference between close supervision - what is 1 me, or you can give it to me. 2 it? - suicide watch. 2 MR. : I can give it to you. I'm 3 MR. Psychological 3 going to ive ou a copy. 4 observation. 4 MR. . Perfect. 5 MR. : And psychological. There's 5 MR. NO-hmm. 6 no such thing as psychological - and that you 6 MR. All right. Then just -- 7 know now - there's no such thing. It's called 7 MR. And so -- 8 close supervision. There's no such as 8 MR. -- I think there's a few 9 psychological. That was an MCC thing. 9 more. Like, I don't know how to spell his 10 MR. Okay. 10 name, pronounce his name, but -- 11 MR. What they made up. So, it's 11 MR. : So -- 12 a close and/or suicide watch. 12 MR. 13 MR. : So, you have at least one 13 MR. 14 e-mail, though, that you sent to Correctional 14 MR. 15 Officers saying that Epstein needed a cell 15 MR. : was another non- 16 mate? 16 custody guy. So, , I believe worked in 17 MR. : It wasn't saying Epstein, but 17 - he was a Material Handler. I think 18 I do have two. I think I gave one e-mail and 18 was a Material Handler. So, he's not 19 one memorandum that I wrote for the 583 packet 19 Correctional Services anymore. However, did 20 for Epstein. I think you may have that. I 20 the have a background - no, I'm sorry. 21 don't know if you have it. And then, I have 21 went to R and D. So, he was Receiving 22 wrote another one about the important of doing 22 and Discharge. So, these staff members worked 23 30-minute rounds in the Special Housing Unit. 23 as Correctional Officers, came up as 24 MR. : Okay. Yeah, if you can - 24 Correctional Officers. But their daily 25 after we're done - either you can send it to 25 assignment, their job descriptions changed. EFTA00111851 89 90 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 1 MR. : -- observed. When you're 2 MR. : Their whatever, their non- 2 doing your rounds. 3 custody. 3 MR. : Anything, though, about 4 MR. : So, the people that 4 the actual cell mate requirement, though? Do 5 worked in the SHU, and the Correctional 5 you know if there was any kind of, like, sticky 6 Officers, they were aware of it, but people 6 note, or any kind of post-it about saying, hey, 7 that had different functions in the facility, 7 make sure that Epstein -? 8 they may not have been? 8 MR. : I can't remember. 9 MR. : May not have been because I 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 10 wouldn't talk to them on a daily basis. 10 MR. : But like I said, I was 11 MR. : And what about, do you 11 putting out a lot of guidance -- 12 know if there were any kind of, like, post-it 12 MR. : Absolutely. 13 notes, or sticky notes, or any -? 13 MR. you know, coming from - 14 MR. : Yes. I had created - it was 14 and, you know - coming from the Warden, and 15 one, one, because I said orange card inmates - 15 things that I would have thought that was 16 I said, make sure these particular inmates, 16 beneficial to the Correctional Officers. I was 17 inmates high visibility inmates, and I think I 17 just putting that guidance out. I kept putting 18 talked about that, that the inmates, their 18 out. You know, like I said, you know, I'm 19 cards should be orange. And those would be our 19 talking to them, I'm putting out the guidance, 20 high visibility inmates that you - and I think 20 but if they don't open their e-mail and don't 21 I got an e-mail about that, too - about the 21 read it. 22 high visibility inmates inside the unit, you 22 MR. : What about some of the 23 should take special care to ensure these 23 people who were Actin Lieutenants? Somebody 24 inmates are -- 24 like an SOS 25 MR. : Observed. 25 MR. : Ms. ? 91 92 1 MR. . Sorry. So, Ms. 1 MR. Okay. So, you're saying, 2 Ys. , she would work 2 make sure you're doing rounds, but it's also 3 Correctional 3 understood, if it's a high-visibility inmate, 4 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, should have he known 4 they need a cell mate at all times? 5 that -- 5 MR...(es. 6 MR. She would have known. 6 MR. : Okay. And did they all 7 MR. : -- should have she known 7 understand that? 8 that Epstein had -? 8 MR. Mies. 9 MR. : It's common knowledge that 9 MR. : All right. And to 10 you're su osed to do 30-minute rounds. 10 include Thomas and -- 11 MR. . Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : I don't know. 12 MR. : And be vigilant. But 12 MR. -- Noel? 13 however, would she know, necessarily, that 13 MR. Because they are not custody. 14 those protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein, 14 MR. . Okay. 15 that he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, 15 MR. : And I don't believe I had 16 you see an orange card, if you see the 16 that conversation with them. I'm not going to 17 guidance. I believe I had put something 17 lie. I didn't have that conversation with 18 together, that was on the OIC's desk, on the 18 them. 19 desk, talked about the high visibility inmates, 19 MR. What about some of these 20 and Jeffrey Epstein was a high visibility 20 Lieutenants, like the Acting Lieutenants, like 21 inmate. 21 22 MR. : But is it understood that 22 MR. : Ms. ? Oh, Ms. 23 a high visibility inmate like that needs a cell 23 was in Correctional Services. And she - I 24 mate? 24 believe - during that time, was working an 25 MR. : Yes. 25 Attorney conference. EFTA00111852 93 94 1 MR. : Yes. 1 MR. : Okay. What about 2 MR. rhe was in Correctional 2 3 Service. She was working an Attorney 3 MR. I had 4 conference during that time. So, Ms. , I 4 conversations - well, I don't believe I had a 5 actually promoted her to Acting Lieutenant. 5 conversation with her. 6 She was getting paid as a Lieutenant. So, yes. 6 MR. : Should have she known, 7 She would have known. 7 based upon the orange card? 8 MR. : So, she should have - or 8 MR. : Yes. She would have known 9 would have, or should have? 9 because I put the guidance out through the e- 10 MR. 10 mail. 11 MR. : How about some of these 11 MR. : Now, the guidance, 12 other ones that we're on? You said IIII, 12 though, said about - you said it talked about 13 obviously, ou already said you -- 13 rounds as opposed to actual cell mate 14 MR. : Yeah. 14 requirement though, correct? 15 MR. : -- specifically directed 15 MR. : I can't remember. 16 him. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. : If he - yeah - I brought him 17 MR. : You know, I don't know, 18 in the office, and we spoke. Yes. 18 because like I said, again, I put out a lot of 19 MR. : Do you know how - and I 19 guidance. 20 think you said that you spoke to him on 20 MR. r: Yeah. 21 multiple occasions -- 21 MR. : But I know the people who I 22 MR. Yes. 22 actually spoke to as far as, like, hey, you the 23 MR. : -- is that correct, and 23 OIC, I mean, you're the Lieutenant of SHU, that 24 made sure, make sure he has a cell mate? 24 means you working day watch, that means any 25 MR. : Yes. 25 movement happens on day watch, it don't happen 95 96 1 on morning watch. Inmates are locked in their 1 out through emails, and the conversations that 2 cells. 2 I would have just encountering Lieutenants, 3 MR. • Right. 3 yes, but however, I can tell you for sure, I 4 MR. : So, anything, day watch, 4 had a conversation with IIII. 5 evening watch, that SHU Lieutenant should be 5 MR. : And would have IIII made 6 aware. 6 sure that those people working in the SHU knew 7 MR. • Okay. 7 this information? 8 MR. So, that's why 8 MR. : He would have - as the 9 MR. And we'll get in -- 9 Lieutenaniiiiiiiiiie, yes. 10 MR. : So, that's why we would have 10 MR. : Should have he made sure 11 that conversation. When he and I had that 11 somebody like - somebody that's not in there. 12 conversation. 12 Although, Tova Noel, I think that was her 13 MR. : And do you remember - so, 13 quarterly post. Or at least she was in there a 14 you recall specifically talking with him - do 14 lot of times -- 15 you - and this is, I want to know about - aside 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 from what they should have known - specific 16 MR. • -- leading up to it. So, 17 17 should have he made sure that she -- 18 I can't 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 remember about . I believe it's as 19 MR. -- what about -- 20 internal. I came into the Lieutenant's Office 20 MR. : Because she worked evening 21 and we spoke about it. So, as a collective, 21 watch. 22 the Lieutenants were made aware. I can't say I 22 MR. -- what about Michael 23 remember that I would come into the 23 Thomas? 24 Lieutenants, and we would talk about Epstein. 24 MR. : Michael Thomas, probably not. 25 So, again, between the guidance that was put 25 But by him working in the unit, he would know. EFTA00111853 97 98 1 I mean, you would say, okay, if he's working on 1 disseminate the information and the guidance 2 evening watching or morning watch, there was no 2 out to him, and he's supposed to take that 3 need to move inmates. There was no showers 3 guidance -- 4 that should have been taking place. There was 4 MR. Mm-hmm. 5 no hearings. No medical. Nothing that we had 5 MR. -- and push it forward -- 6 to open u a cell door for, for those inmates. 6 MR. For the unit. So, he's 7 MR. : Okay. 7 in the charge of the unit. You went to the guy 8 MR. : So, most of those inmates was 8 in charge of the unit and you said, hey, you're 9 done on day watch, there was no reason for them 9 in charge of the unit. Make sure he's got a 10 to move these u s. 10 cell mate at all times. 11 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. . Yes. 12 MR. : You understand what I'm 12 MR. : And he, then, is supposed 13 saying? 13 to take that, and anybody that works within his 14 MR. : Sure. And then, as far 14 unit should know? 15 as conversations with 15 MR. . Yeah. 16 MR. was one of the 16 MR. : Okay. What about these 17 Lieutenants. As far as - again - speaking to 17 Lieutenants, though, especially the ones that 18 as Lieutenants as a forum, you know, hey, got 18 are Acting as, like, Ops Lieutenants and 19 to make sure that you guys are doing it, you 19 Activities Lieutenants -- 20 know, like that. But I know for a fact, the 20 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 21 only person that I spoke to, that I pulled in 21 MR. • -- pestle like , 22 my office, was the SHU OIC. 22 Durant. I think IIII. 23 MR. : So -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Was the SHU Lieutenant. 24 MR. : Should have they known, 25 Because they're in charge of that unit. So, I 25 during these shifts, specifically on the 9th 99 100 1 and 10th -- 1 that. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. • -- should have they known 3 MR. not going to be that guy 4 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 4 to say whatever, whatever. Because I'm going 5 MR. : I believe so. 5 to tell you what, sir, to be real with you, it 6 MR. : Okay. 6 was so much oin on -- 7 MR. : But, like again, I would have 7 MR. : Sure. 8 to go back through my emails, you know, because 8 MR. : -- through that timeframe, 9 a lot of the communication that me and the 9 that I don't want to put my statement to 10 Lieutenants had were through e-mail, because 10 something like that, that could detrimentally 11 you can't catch them all on shift. 11 harm one of these Lieutenants. 12 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. Mm-hmm. 13 MR. rou know, you catch them 13 MR. Ir'm not going to say that, 14 passing and coming. So, I would put out 14 hey, I talked to -- 15 guidance that wa . 15 MR. EN: Itigtt. 16 MR. : But as far as - you said 16 MR. : on this day. I'm 17 - that everyone knew that he had an orange card 17 not going to do that. 18 and that he was a high visibility inmate, and 18 MR. : And I'm not saying about 19 therefore, he was required to have a cell mate. 19 speaking. I'm saying just the fact that there 20 So, should have they known through that? 20 was an - and again, you're saying that you 21 MR. M Yeah. 21 don't recall specific conversations about the 22 MR. : And is there any excuse 22 cell mate re uirements -- 23 for any of them to say, I didn't know? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : I'm not going to put that on 24 MR. : -- aside from IIII. But 25 the Lieutenant. You know, I'm not going to do 25 the fact that, if there was an orange -- EFTA00111854 101 102 1 MR. : Yes. 1 report any, you know, I went into detail with 2 MR. : -- card -- 2 that. 3 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. So, maybe not, if 4 MR. : -- is that something that 4 it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily 5 just is common knowledge, if someone has an 5 mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they 6 orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he's got 6 just require -- 7 an orange card he needs a cell mate? 7 MR. : Higher - or higher 8 MR. Right. But then again, also, 8 supervision. 9 it was high visibility guys on - what do you 9 MR. Okay. So, you just need 10 call that? - on -- 10 to know what they're doing at all times, and 11 MR. Ten South? 11 make sure that they're okay? 12 MR. -- no. On G. 12 MR. Illifeah. 13 MR. Oh, okay. The -- 13 MR. : All right. So, in this 14 MR. On that -- 14 instance, it wouldn't be, necessarily, cell 15 MR. -- the one inmate. 15 mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye 16 MR. -- that one occupancy. So, 16 on Epstein, make sure that he's -- 17 with the guidance I had put out, I got to give 17 MR. That is correct. 18 you that e-mail. 18 MR. : -- all right. So, 19 MR. : Okay. 19 is the only one that you can specifically 20 MR. : That e-mail was saying that, 20 recall -- 21 hey, these guys with these orange cards, you 21 MR. Yes. 22 need to ensure hi h visibility vigilance. 22 MR. : -- and again, what you 23 MR. : So - all right - so -- 23 said -? 24 MR. : Ensure that these guys, you 24 MR. : And then, again, when I went 25 know, are alive, and all of this, you know, 25 on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, 103 104 1 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would 1 SHU staff? 2 talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute 2 MR. : I can't remember, sir. 3 rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure 3 MR. No problem. 4 that is done. 4 MR. : I don't remember. Because 5 MR. • Okay. 5 like I said, that guidance came out between the 6 MR. : Making sure this guy -. You 6 time of him being upon his release from suicide 7 know, that's what I did. 7 watch from that last time, to the time during 8 MR. Okay. 8 the time that we was doing the vetting for the 9 MR. : Because that's what Mr. 9 cell mate. 10 wanted. So, I did it. 10 MR. So -? 11 MR. All right. And then, 11 MR. : So, it was, you know, it was 12 again, just to make sure that I'm not 12 a short period of time that this guidance and 13 misunderstanding you. You said you talked to 13 these conversations took place. 14 specifically about it, but when you did 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 visit the SHU, not only were you telling them 15 MR. : And then, the reinforcement 16 to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you 16 was when we would walk through the unit and 17 also telling them, the people that you did 17 just do rounds. And then, I'm, like, hey, this 18 interact with, that he needed to have a cell 18 is a high visibility guy, why this guy got 19 mate? 19 trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. 20 MR. Yes. 20 Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you 21 MR. • Okay. 21 know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like 22 MR. Yes. 22 me because I was trying to hold people 23 MR. On Friday, August 9th - 23 accountable. But I didn't always write people 24 or sorry - when is the last time, can you 24 up. 25 recall, that you had that conversation with the 25 MR. Mm-hmm. EFTA00111855 105 106 1 MR. : That's how I did, I came up 1 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, 2 like that. I'm trying to help you. People 2 Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to 3 thought me trying to just talk to them about 3 staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out 4 Correctional Services, or trying, giving them 4 emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, 5 little, you know, helping them out, talking to 5 and I know that staff is going to blow you off. 6 them, you know, that I was trying to be the 6 I mean, like, yeah, whatever. I'm glad he out 7 know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You 7 the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to 8 know, you're not sociable, but now you're down 8 whatever we was doing. It's what it is. 9 here, telling us what to do. You're not one of 9 MR. : Sure. And just so you 10 those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, 10 know, just to give you a little bit of peace of 11 again, I can give you the playbook to success. 11 mind, we're asking you the questions directly. 12 But if you don't read it, it's just words. 12 You're not placing blame on anybody. 13 MR. Sure. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. rt's just words. And then, I 14 MR. : So, if we ask you 15 had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, 16 MR. -- like -- 17 even though, in my previous statement, I would 17 MR. Okay. 18 never say anything statements to hurt them. 18 MR. : -- if they were 19 I'm not doing that. But what I'll tell you 19 responsible or something, that's not on you. 20 was, the relationship between me and the 20 MR. : Oh, okay. Well, I just 21 Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we 21 wanted to -- 22 move forward through today, you know, the 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 statements that I make is not to try to put 23 MR. -- because I didn't 24 blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing 24 understand that. 25 I'm doing is, is telling you that, when the 25 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 107 108 1 MR. : Because like I said, I'm not 1 MR. You know? 2 here - I mean -- 2 MR. : -- who did drop the ball 3 MR. I mean, we might say who 3 here. 4 was responsible -- 4 MR. . Yeah. 5 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : But that's not - you're 6 MR. -- or did they drop the 6 not comin to us. We're coming to you. 7 ball? 7 MR. : Right. I understand. 8 MR. Right. 8 MR. So, "On Friday, August 9, 9 MR. But that's us asking you 9 2019, Lieutenant was on leave, and thus, 10 a direct question. Not you coming to us, 10 there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to 11 saying, it was this guy's fault. 11 the SHU." 12 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : That is correct. 13 MR. You know, we're 13 MR. "In this event, the 14 specificall asking you. So, just -- 14 Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant 15 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. 15 MR. Man-hmrn. 16 MR. -- you know? 16 MR. : -- had oversight that 17 MR. : That's what I didn't 17 day, and took over the responsibilities of the 18 understand. 18 SHU Lieutenant." 19 MR. But -. 19 MR. Ma-hmm. 20 MR. : And that's not what I'm - I 20 MR. : So, what time did - can 21 mean, I'm not here for that. I'm just -- 21 you look at the - oiliiiist 9th - what times 22 MR. Right. 22 that he worked on? 23 MR. -- I'm just here -- 23 MR. : The periods that - this is 24 MR. I mean, we do have to 24 Friday, ri ht? 25 figure out -- 25 MR. : Correct. August 9th. EFTA00111856 109 110 1 MR. : I got so, basically, I have 1 MR. ..eah. 2 was not there. 2 MR. : And then, underneath 3 MR. r: Oh. 3 them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been 4 MR. : He was there on that 4 Durant, and then, 5 Saturday, which was evening watch on that 5 MR. 6 Saturday. 6 MR. IIIIIIIIIiight. : Correct. All right. All 7 MR. Did he not work 4:00 p.m. 7 right. So, they must have got this wrong 8 to midnight? 8 somehow. So, it said - so, this is not 9 MR. : He worked 4:00 p.m. - 9 accurate, when it says in this report - "In 10 midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. 10 this event, the Operations Lieutenant, 11 MR. : Okay. You can speak. Do 11 Lieutenant , had oversight that day and 12 you know something different? 12 took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who 13 MR. : No, no, no. I was just 13 actually had oversight, then, since El was 14 clarifyin . 14 out? 15 MR. : Oops, sorry. Can I see 15 MR. : That would have been the day 16 the August 9th? 16 watch Operations Lieutenant. 17 MR. : So, who was working on August 17 MR. And who was that? 18 9th? 18 MR. : The day watch Operations 19 MR. Au ust 9th, it appears I 19 Lieutenant for Auoust 9th would have been - it 20 think you 20 appears it was 21 MR. All right. So, 21 MR. So, would have been 22 would have been the Ops Lieutenant? 22 responsible? 23 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. Well, and then 24 MR. And is it your 25 11111111? 25 understanding that knew that he needed a 111 112 1 cell mate? 1 MR. Okay. 2 MR. : I believe so, yes. 2 MR. I believe I did. Yeah. 3 MR. • Okay. All right. So, 3 MR. : All right. Inmates, cell 4 that was incorrect, all this stuff about the 4 mates, and are typically the people that are 5 thing. And then, it goes on to say, 5 assigned to the SHU, are they in those three 6 informally advised his Lieutenants that 6 shifts, or you would have hit the people that 7 Epstein was not to be housed alone, and 7 are assigned between that time period? So, 8 emphasized the need to be vigilant about 30- 8 point being, maybe you don't remember 9 minute checks and unannounced rounds." And 9 specifically, I had a conversation with that 10 that's - you said there was emails about that, 10 person, or that person, or that person, but if 11 as well as when you spoke with your 11 they're assigned to SHU, not a temporary duty 12 Lieutenants, and when you went to the SHU, 12 assignment like an OT -- 13 specificall ? 13 MR. Right. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- type of assignment, 15 MR. : Correct? All right. And 15 but the peo le that were assigned there 16 you don't remember the last time you did that, 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 but between Auoust -- 17 MR. : -- that was their duty, 18 MR. : No. 18 too -. 19 MR. -- between July 30th and 19 MR. : So, like, I remember 20 August 9th, at least did it a few times? 20 specificall I hit day watch. 21 MR. : Right. 21 MR. Ri ht. 22 MR. Okay. And you think you 22 MR. 23 hit at least all three shifts between that 23 remember Mr. Perry. Percy or Perry. Whatever 24 time? 24 his name. I remember those guys. 25 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. Mm-hmm. EFTA00111857 113 114 1 MR. : I know I spoke to . I 1 - it looks like Reyes was moved - I think his 2 know I spoke to different guys. The SHU staff 2 appointment with court was at, like, 8:30, and 3 that was ... there. 3 I think -- 4 MR. : But you just don't 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 specificall remember talking to Noel? 5 MR. • -- he was gone from the 6 MR. : No. 6 institution b -- 7 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : She might have been in the 8 MR. • -- like, 1:SO p.m. 9 background somewhere. 9 MR. Mm-hmm. 10 MR. • Right. 10 MR. : Does that sound right? 11 MR. : She could have been there. I 11 MR. : Something like that. It 12 don't know. But I don't remember -- 12 could have been. 13 MR. But IIII should have 13 MR. So, who was in the SHU at 14 spoken -- 14 that time? If he's gone from the institution 15 MR. -- actually -. 15 by, like, 1:50 p.m., who would have -- 16 MR. -- with her? 16 MR. : So, that would have been -- 17 MR. Of course. 17 MR. • -- who would have -? 18 MR. Okay. 18 MR. : -- all of your 6:00 to 2:00, 19 MR. : Because that's part of - 19 and your 8:00 to 4:00 staff. 20 that's part of the expectations of the unit. 20 MR. Okay. 21 If I give you a guidance, your guidance should 21 MR. So, that would have been -. 22 have been disseminated down to the Officers. 22 MR. : So, I guess let's go from 23 MR. : Okay. How about the 23 the top. Who would have been the person in 24 people - so, we were going to get into this 24 charge at the top level? 25 later, but since we're conversing about it now 25 MR. : That, I mean, as far as - 115 116 1 that would have been SHU one, because he would 1 two hours out. So, for them to come from 2 have got the notice that he was supposed to 2 various parts of New Jersey, or Long Island, 3 move the u s. 3 you know, as a consensus, we said, hey, I will 4 MR. : And who was that? 4 continue - because that was the previous 5 MR. And move the inmate. 5 Administration, the previous Captain put that 6 MR. And who was that? 6 in for those u s. 7 MR. It was 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. . And what time 8 MR. : So, you know, with those 9 was he woiiiiilfrom? 9 conversations, you know, with the Lieutenants, 10 MR. : He was working from 8:00 to 10 I said, I will keep that. I said, you know, 11 4:00. 11 you try to do things - where I came from, we 12 MR. : So, he was 8:00 to 4:00. 12 didn't do those things. 13 And those times are accurate on there, and if 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 some Lieutenants said, oh, we, you know, it 14 MR. : You know, as far as that, you 15 says zero to 8:00 -- 15 know, the Captain ran his shifts, whatever the 16 MR. : Right. 16 shift was, you did it. But when I came to 17 MR. • -- but we're actually 17 Brooklyn, that was a common practice in 18 10:00 p.m. -- 18 Brooklyn. You know, the Captain would allow 19 R. : And that's true, but the 19 them - when I was the Lieutenant - would allow 20 Officers worked those prescribed shifts. 20 us to, you know, to work those shifts. And due 21 MR. : Okay. 21 to, we've got staff that commute far out. So, 22 MR. : The Lieutenants was given 22 that was just an incentive to get these guys to 23 those shifts because of their commutes. 23 come to work. 24 MR. Okay. 24 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Some of them were commuting 25 MR. : You know? EFTA00111858 117 118 1 MR. Sure. 1 have been on Au ust 9th. 2 MR. : So, yes. 2 MR. Right. But just -- 3 MR. : But the times for these, 3 MR. : It would have been on -- 4 the SHU staff, that's the actual hours that's 4 MR. -- but they would have 5 listed on that. 5 known the need to -. 6 MR. : But for the Line staff -- 6 MR. : They was in the unit. 7 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. Okay. 8 MR. : -- the Line staff, that 8 MR. : For thatiiiiiiir. So, once I 9 roster correctl imitates their schedule. 9 got the guidance from Mr. , of what he 10 MR. : Perfect. So, who, then - 10 wanted me to do, I moved on and did it. So, I 11 I guess you said they would be working until 11 can't tell you, but I know I spoke to the day 12 4:00 p.m.? 12 watch SHU staff. 13 MR. Right. 13 MR. Sure. 14 MR. : So, they would have at 14 MR. : They was the first ones I 15 least two hours to be able to do something. 15 spoke to. 16 MR. : Right. 16 MR. So, who, then - out of 17 MR. And who was it that was 17 there - who would have the SHU staff reported 18 on that da 18 the matter to? 19 MR. : So I had . I had 19 MR. • The what now? 20 Joiner. I had . And I had 20 MR. So, the SHU staff that's 21 MR. And did you speak with 21 in there 22 all of those individuals about the need for a 22 MR. Mm-hmm. 23 cell mate? 23 MR. • -- they now know that he 24 MR. : I believe I did because they 24 doesn't have a cell mate, and the cell mate is 25 were day watch, but like I said, it wouldn't 25 not coming back. 119 120 1 MR. : Okay. So, they would have 1 instance, he did know. 2 known that he wasn't coming back until probably 2 MR. : So, if he knew? 3 evening watch. 3 MR. : He knew that he needed a cell 4 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 4 mate, and he knew that the cell mate wasn't 5 think thoiiiiiis would have known? 5 coming back. 6 MR. : No. They wouldn't have 6 MR. : He probably wouldn't - but 7 known. Because I don't know when the inmate 7 what I'm trying to tell you, sir - he probably 8 left the institution, but what happens is, when 8 wouldn't have never known. 9 that court line comes out, I believe that the 9 MR. I know, but in this 10 inmates leave the institution - supposed to - 10 instance, I'm .ust saying, let's -- 11 between 6:00 and 8:00, or 7:00, you know, let's 11 MR. : Oh, oh, okay. 12 say 7:00 to 9:00. So, between that time, those 12 MR. -- let's say that he did. 13 inmates are - they're picked up, and then, 13 MR. : Okay. So, the instance of 14 they're trans orted to a court. 14 what would have happen. What would happen was 15 MR. : Okay. So, what time did 15 16 work? What was his shift? 16 MR. What should have he done? 17 MR. : was 8:00 to 4:00. 17 MR. • -- he should have - okay, 18 MR. : So, if we can - let's 18 this guy is not coming - he should have 19 assume, for this instance, that knows 19 notified me. 20 that he needs a cell mate. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Right. 21 MR. rnd should have been, like, 22 MR. What should have he done? 22 hey, Cap, hey, Reyes, Epstein's cell mate, hey, 23 MR. probably wouldn't have 23 he went out to court, he's not coming back. 24 known. 24 MR. And he did not? 25 MR. But let's say, for this 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111859 121 122 1 MR. : Okay. 1 MR. : So, evening watch, well, 2 MR. : No one later informed me that 2 well, well, well, well, well let's see here. 3 that inmate had even went to court. I didn't 3 You're talkin about as the OIC? 4 even know he went with the court. Because 4 MR. In the SHU. 5 guess what? During the time this inmate is in 5 MR. Yeah. 6 court, Epstein is in Attorney visiting all day. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Sure. 7 MR. : That would have been 8 MR. : So, nobody would have even 8 9 thought about it because, oh, Epstein is in 9 MR. Okay. So, 10 Attorney visiting, his cell mate is not in 10 MR. Mm-hmm. 11 there. Okay, his cell mate went to court. 11 MR. And who should have he 12 Nobody would have even been made aware that he 12 reported the matter to? 13 didn't have a cellie until when they went to 13 MR. : He would have reported it to 14 put him ph sicall in the cell. 14 the Operations Lieutenant. 15 MR. : Okay. So, when do you 15 MR. : And who was the 16 think it would have been - in this instance - 16 Operations Lieutenant at that time? 17 when do you think it would have come up? 17 MR. : I believe the Lieutenant 18 MR. : As far as knowing he didn't 18 would hav2_22na_ttat would have been 19 have a cellie? 19 MR. IIIIIIIIII: All right. And ■ 20 MR. Correct. 20 iiiiii you, no one told you, so, obviously, 21 MR. : Somebody should have known 21 didn't tell you. 22 when he didn't come. That should have been on 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 evening watch. 23 MR. So and would 24 MR. So, who was on evening 24 iiiiiiirectly to 25 watch? 25 MR. : Yeah. He would have called 123 124 1 . But guess what? I was there. I 1 with, with regard to the need for a cell mate. 2 didn't leave that night until, like, 8:00 2 Correct? 3 something. I as there until 8:00 that night. 3 MR. : I don't know if I - again, 4 MR. : Right. And you did not 4 talking to eo le in all three shifts, do I 5 visit the SHU that night, though. Correct? 5 remember ? Working in the unit? Yeah. 6 MR. : I can't remember. 6 But as you're talking to people, I don't 7 MR. All right. 7 remember that, hey, I talked - there's certain 8 MR. : I'm not going to say did I 8 people that I can't remember that I spoke 9 make rounds that day or didn't I. I don't 9 specificall to. 10 know. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : As opposed to some people, 12 MR. rut I know I didn't leave 12 you know, could have been in the area. That's 13 that institution until late that night. 13 why I can't - I know I talked to the day watch 14 MR. : And you know, though, 14 SHU staff for sure. 15 that Reyes, you were never aware - on that day, 15 MR. : Okay. 16 August 9th - that Reyes -- 16 MR. rid I mentioned those names. 17 MR. Had went to court. No. 17 I talked iiiiiiiiiiuys. 18 MR. : -- you didn't even know 18 MR. : So, but should have 19 he went to court, let alone wasn't coming back. 19 certainly have told them? 20 MR. : Correct. 20 MR. El Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. So, 21 MR. : So, he's the Officer-in- 22 should have went direct to ? 22 Charge. Who else was on that day? 23 MR. . Correct. 23 MR. : You had Tova Noel. And she 24 MR. : All right. And 24 was the number two. And then, you had M. 25 is somebody that you did have a conversation 25 EFTA00111860 125 126 1 MR. : Tova Noel. Correct? 1 means the Lieutenant would have been notified 2 MR. -- yeah. 2 because you can't clear the count. Where is 3 MR. : Okay. 3 the inmate at? 4 MR. : Noel. And then, you had M. 4 MR. : Right. 5 , was SHU three that day. And then, you 5 MR. WI, if you can't clear the 6 had the SHU four not assigned. 6 count, where is the inmate? The inmate went 7 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. So, those three 7 out. But it's now 4:00. But I did say that 8 people were in SHU. So, was it ultimately the 8 sometimes inmates don't come back on the 4:00. 9 Officer-in-Charge responsibility, or should 9 So, they call that "ghosting." Supposedly, 10 have these other two - and Noel - have 10 he's supposed to be at court. But did you get 11 taken any action? Should have they contacted 11 a count slip from court? No. When he leaves 12 anyone? 12 out of the institution, that's on them. So, 13 MR. : Well, if you're walking, and 13 that means the institution number should have 14 you're doing rounds in the unit, you would see 14 came down minus one. 15 - especially at the 4:00 count, because you 15 MR. : So, you believe that the 16 need to know where all of your inmates are - 16 SHU should have known by 4:00 p.m., during the 17 so, at that 4:00 count, and where is Epstein? 17 4:00 p.m. count? 18 Epstein is at - he's in Attorney visiting, 18 MR. M.'eah. 19 because I'm going to get a count slip from 19 MR. : All right. And let's - 20 Attorney visitin right? 20 in this case - if they didn't do a count at 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 4:00 p.m., should have they somehow known 22 MR. : Where is Reyes? Reyes is out 22 otherwise, after that? So, would someone have 23 at court. Then somebody should have called R&D 23 contacted them and said, by the way, this guy 24 (Phonetic Sp. *01:45:06). Where is this guy 24 is not cciiiiiiack? 25 at? Somebody should have called R&D. That 25 MR. : Right. So, that means that, 127 128' 1 that the 4:00 count, when you going through the 1 only time you're going to know is when these 2 unit -. 2 guys always come back from the court line by 3 MR. But if they didn't do a 3 4:00. 4 4:00 p.m. count. So, let's say, in this 4 MR. : Okay. 5 instance, that they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. 5 MR. : But sometimes they don't come 6 count. 6 back at 4:00. 7 MR. Nobody would know. 7 MR. : Now, what time was their 8 MR. • Would R&D have -- 8 shift? Was it 4:00 to midnight? 9 MR. Nope. 9 MR. : Who? 10 MR. -- called them? 10 MR. : The people we were just 11 MR. No. 11 talking about the evening watch. 12 MR. So, unless they do the 12 MR. : Yes. Their - yes. 4:00 to 13 count, they don't even know that the guy is not 13 midnight. 14 coming back? 14 MR. So, 4:00 p.m. to 15 MR. : That's right. 15 midnight. At that point, if it was recognized 16 MR. Okay. 16 that there was no cell mate and he needed a 17 MR. : So, normally -. 17 cell mate, could have a - if they did contact 18 MR. : So, no one is calling 18 the Ops Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant did contact 19 them and saying, by the way, your guy that went 19 you - could have an inmate been assigned at 20 to court, he's not coming back? 20 that time, or would have had to have wait the 21 MR. : Right. 21 next day? 22 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Well, what I would have done, 23 MR. : Because you would know. 23 if I would have known right then and there that 24 Because like I told you before, sometimes 24 he didn't have a cell mate, he's already in 25 inmates go to court and don't come back. The 25 Attorney visiting, right? EFTA00111861 129 130 1 MR. : Yup. 1 Put him on Fox One. Put a staff member down 2 MR. ro, I would have went on 2 there. Let me call the Warden. 3 ahead. All right. Keep him in Attorney 3 MR. : What does Fox One mean? 4 visiting. I would have called - guess who I 4 MR. That means - that's R&D. 5 would have called? I would have let the AW 5 MR. : Okay. 6 know. Ms. IIII. Well, Ms. , and 6 MR. That's that cell assignment, 7 I would have called the Warden. I would have 7 I believe. 8 said, hey, look, this guy went out the WAB 8 MR. : Okay. 9 today. Or Reyes didn't come back from court. 9 MR. It would have been Fox One. 10 We got to vet another guy. 10 MR. : And are those -. 11 MR. Okay. 11 MR. : Just, I can't just put him on 12 MR. What's what would happen. 12 suicide watch. 13 And plus, I was there at 8:00. So, let's say 13 MR. : Right. And in Fox One, 14 he got released from Attorney visiting, and he 14 people monitored at all times? 15 didn't go back, and when they went to the - 15 MR. : No. But I would have had 16 let's say, hey, this dude - he don't have a 16 somebody monitored -- 17 cell mate. I would have been, like, hold up. 17 MR. : Oh, I gotcha. 18 I would have said, because I got R&D staff down 18 MR. M.- I would have had, hey, put 19 there. Ri ht? 19 a staff member down there, and watch this guy, 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 until we et him a cell mate. 21 MR. : Because I can't put him on 21 MR. : Okay. And you think that 22 suicide watch. I can't put him on close 22 that same day, August 9th, he would have had a 23 supervision. So, I would have said, hey, 23 cell mate if were made aware? 24 quarter this guy right now in R&D, put a staff 24 MR. : Yes. If I was made aware, he 25 member on it, which would have been Fox One. 25 would have got a cell mate. 131 132 1 MR. Okay. Now, let's go back 1 MR. So, if the 4:00 p.m. 2 and say, if did know, and didn't tell 2 count, the 10:00 p.m. count were both 3 anybody, he didn't tell you, he didn't tell 3 conducted, there would have been notice, hey, 4 4 no cell mate -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. .Correct. 6 MR. -- is he the one that -- 6 MR. : -- bring it up to 7 MR. : He dropped the ball. 7 8 MR. -- right. 8 MR. : Correct. 9 MR. : Because, again, like I told 9 MR. All right. So, if 10 you about count, and you made a good statement, 10 didn't know, didn't tell him. 11 then how did 'au clear the count? 11 So, dropped the ball, the SHU staff 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. So, the two 12 dropped the ball, it looks like. 13 people that - so, if knew, and he didn't 13 MR. Right. 14 tell anybody he dropped the ball, but at the 14 MR. : Okay. Before we move on 15 same time, if the 4:00 p.m. count was 15 from that, do you want to talk to anything 16 conducted, they would have, then, raised the 16 specific to that notion? 17 issue with 17 MR. No. 18 MR. : Right. 18 MR. . Okay. 19 MR. : So, there would have been 19 MR. : Can we take a break? 20 two checks there. 20 MR. . Absolutely. All right. 21 MR. Milight. 21 It is currentl 11:58 .m. This is Senior 22 MR. : And if not that, it would 22 Special Agent , and I am 23 have also happened at the 10:00 p.m. count, as 23 pausing the recording. 24 well. 24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 MR. : Right. 25 off the record and back on the record). EFTA00111862 133 134 1 MR. Okay. The recorder is 1 which, the Control Center would have updated 2 on. It is currently Tuesday, June 15, 2021, at 2 the count in Sentry, to reflect if the inmate 3 12:06 p.m. We just took a short eight-minute 3 was physically in the institution, or was still 4 break. And Mr. , I remind you that you 4 out in court. So, it would be contingent to 5 are under oath. Thank you very much for your 5 look at that Sentry roster, which would be the 6 cooperation with this matter, and it is 6 E-1, that the Control Center had created for 7 voluntary, and you can choose not to answer, or 7 those counts, to find out if Reyes was still on 8 leave at an time. 8 the count, as physically being in the 9 MR. : Okay. 9 institution, or out the court. 10 MR. : All right. So, what we 10 MR. : Okay. And if R&D and Control 11 are talking about before, before we move oris _i_ 11 did get that notification, did they have to 12 just want to go back to, so, you said, if IIIII 12 notify the SHU? 13 knew he dropped the ball, if the SHU staff 13 MR. : Yes. Because then the count 14 didn't do their counts at 4:00 p.m., and at 14 would be off. 15 10:00 p.m., that's when they would have next 15 MR. : If, let's just say that that 16 found out that Epstein was without a cell mate, 16 notification came between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 17 and they would have, then, reported it up. 17 p.m., who in the SHU would have got notified? 18 MR. Mn-hmm. 18 MR. : The OIC. Which would have 19 MR. : Correct? What did we want 19 been - for day watch - it would have been 20 to followiiiiiith on that? 20 either or 21 MR. : If a notification came from 21 MR. : And what should they have 22 court that Reyes wasn't coming back, who would 22 done? 23 have got that notification? 23 MR. : And with that one time, they 24 MR. : That notification would have 24 would have reflected on - inside of Sentry, and 25 came though R&D and through the Control Center, 25 also, they would have known that the inmate was 135 136 1 not physically there, and they would have had 1 MR. Even though the SHU that 2 notified the Operations Lieutenant, that this 2 replaced them already made the notification 3 guy didn't come back. So, that means somebody 3 that Epstein was without a cell mate and needed 4 would have had to make sure that the 4 a new one? 5 institutional count was right or wrong. 5 MR. : Because their count would 6 MR. : So, in this instance, if 6 have been off. 7 knew, who would have been the one that 7 MR. • Well -. 8 would have informed him? 8 MR. : And then, they wouldn't have 9 MR. : That would have one of the - 9 known that, you know, when they brought him 10 that would have been either 10 back from Attorney visiting, that the cell was 11 would have notified him, but then, I also said 11 empty. 12 that worked in the capacity of OIC 12 MR. : Right. And I'm not 13 because a lot of those Officers would say, oh, 13 specifically talking about the count right now. 14 I don't have the ability to log on, into the 14 What I'm saying is, like, if the SHU did notify 15 program. So, he would do double duties. 15 , hey, Epstein is required to have a cell 16 MR. : Okay. So, let's say that 16 mate and his cell mate is gone, we need to get 17 the SHU staff that time did notify 17 him a new one. 18 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. Let's say now 19 MR. now never takes any 20 didn't take an action. 20 action. Should the SHU, later that day, made 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 the same notification to the - in this case - 22 MR. Okay? Now, let's say the 22 to ? Hey, Epstein still hasn't been re- 23 next SHU staff comes on board, should they 23 assigned a cell mate. 24 continue iiiiiiort the matter up the chain? 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. Okay. So, the SHU may EFTA00111863 137 138 1 have done it right at day watch, and got 1 MR. : They would have been in the 2 the notification, but the SHU on night watch -- 2 unit, with the assumption that all of the 3 MR. : Didn't do it. 3 inmates have been accounted for by the previous 4 MR. . -- didn't do it, and they 4 shifts because the count didn't go - wasn't 5 should have. 5 bad. 6 MR. : Because he was in Attorney 6 MR. : So, that's the 12:00 7 visiting. So, they said, oh, it was an empty 7 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 8 cell. We said, okay, yeah. Epstein is still 8 MR. ..orrect. 9 at Attorney visiting. Nobody would have cared 9 MR. : Are you saying they don't 10 about the cellie because they would have 10 really need to do those counts? 11 thought he was still out at court. 11 MR. : No, no, no. I'm not saying 12 MR. : Okay. 12 that. What I'm saying is, they would have not 13 MR. r3ut if he didn't come back by 13 known that that inmate didn't come back from 14 8:00 that night, somebody should have said 14 court, if it wasn't addressed on either at day 15 something. 15 watch or evenin watch. 16 MR. : Now, let's go even 16 MR. : Okay. 17 further from, now we go from evening watch to 17 MR. : They wouldn't know. They 18 now morning watch, we're on August 10th, where 18 would just - can't be responsible for counting 19 Noel and Thomas are now in there. 19 what inmates was housed in that unit, between 20 MR. : Correct. 20 the hours of 12:00 to 5:00 a.m. Because those 21 MR. Should have they made the 21 are the three counts. 22 notification 22 MR. These. 23 MR. They wouldn't have known. 23 MR. : So, yeah, let's see - so, 24 MR. All right. So, they 24 these are the counts - let's look. 25 should have -. 25 MR. : So, the 5:00 p.m. one? 139 140 1 MR. : All right. So, I got the 1 MR. MOkay. So -- 2 2 MR. : Now, is there a way to 3 MR. : 5:00. 3 look at that, if there is someone, let's say, 4 MR. -- it looks like we got 4 because at the 12:00 a.m. count, you'll notice 5 the 5:00, the 10:00, the midnight, the 3:00 5 there is a discrepancy. There is one inmate 6 a.m., the 5:00 a.m., and then, is this the 6 they're off by. Control says, hey, you're off 7 rounds? 7 by one. 8 MR. : Yeah. That's the control. 8 MR. IIIIIIiiiiight. 9 MR. The control. 9 MR. : Is there a way to kind of 10 MR. : Yeah, we don't want this. 10 look at these counts and notice, all right, 11 I'll take this. 11 this would have been picked up then, or a way 12 MR. Okay. So, here are the 12 to kind of tell that these weren't conducted by 13 counts from August 9th, from 4:00 p.m. through 13 just looking at those documents, or noticing 14 August 10th through 5:00 a.m. 14 if, you know, if Reyes is gone by 1:50, you 15 MR. II.kay. 15 know -- 16 MR. : Now, we have reason to 16 MR. Yeah. 17 believe that the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m., the 17 MR. : -- he's released. Is 18 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 p.m., 18 there a wiiiiiitell that on there? 19 none of them were conducted. 19 MR. : Because you've got it right 20 MR. : Okay. So, you're saying that 20 here. 21 the 4:00 count for August 9th was not done, and 21 MR. Okay. 22 the 10:00 wasn't done? 22 MR. : This is the form right there. 23 MR. : And the 10:00. And nor 23 This will tell you who the inmates are, out of 24 was the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., or the 5:00 24 count 25 a.m. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111864 141 142 1 MR. : And that's from Small. He 1 went down to 86. But guess what? Reyes drops 2 was one of the receiving and discharged 2 off the count. How? He got released. Where is 3 employees that was probably working on August 3 the -- 4 9th. 4 MR. : So, if he was released -- 5 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. M.- form that should have came 6 MR. ro, she would know who was 6 from the Marshals back to us, saying that he 7 still out at count. So, that means, Operations 7 got released. 8 Lieutenant didn't even sign it. That's a 8 MR. : So, between the 10:00 9 violation. 9 a.m. count and the 4:00 p.m. count, would there 10 MR. : So, this document that 10 be a form in there showing that he was 11 you're looking at, it looks like - what is it? 11 released? 12 - like, the third page on there? 12 MR. : There should have been. 13 MR. : Yeah. That they should have 13 MR. : Okay. 14 - because you've got right here. Clark. 14 MR. : That should have been 15 Unassigned work assignments. So, this inmate 15 generated from the Marshals because it's a 16 Clark. This saving he's out at court. 16 transfer order. You heard of a transfer order? 17 MR. Okay. 17 Every time an inmate goes off, if you've got 18 MR. So, he -- 18 ten that went out to court that day, that's 19 MR. • Okay. 19 that transfer order. Whatever the disposition 20 MR. : -- so now, our count is minus 20 of those inmates are, okay, boom, ten went out 21 one. But we know where he is because he's 21 to count, eight coming back. Okay, where are 22 still out at court. So, Reyes, that count - 22 the other two? Okay. I got this guy that's 23 so, if he went out to court, let's say we was 23 still out of counted, and he's at court. He's 24 at 88, let's just say. When he went out to 24 still at whatever, at this timeframe. Where is 25 court, him and Clark went out, we would have 25 Reyes? There should have been a transfer 143 144 1 receipt signed by the Marshals by the staff 1 evening watch guy would take that 10:00 count. 2 that was at the New York court over there, the 2 Right? Or somebody would take the 4:00 count. 3 people that handle the inmates, that transfer 3 So, the Operations Lieutenant or the Activities 4 order should have been sent back with whoever 4 would normally go down and take the 4:00. They 5 was transporting the inmates, and brought back 5 would go through the paperwork for that day, up 6 to the institution to say that this guy never 6 to 4:00, and you would sign all of the forms. 7 came back. 7 Like, if somebody checked out keys, restricted 8 MR. : So, that third page that 8 key forms 0 erations is supposed to sign it. 9 you're saying, though, that that was a 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 violation that the Operations Lieutenant didn't 10 MR. : If a transfer order receipts 11 sign? 11 comes back, you're supposed to sign it. 12 MR. : Right. 12 Whatever happens on that shift, you're supposed 13 MR. : Would have that been 13 to sign the count slips. That form, right 14 or , at that time? 14 here? That should have been signed by the 15 MR. : Because all of this stuff, 15 Lieutenant. 16 it's called a 30-day file. 16 MR. : Okay. So, these forms 17 MR. : Okay. 17 that we're looking at 4:00 p.m., there is a 18 MR. : So, what the Lieutenants are 18 number of si natures that are missing? 19 supposed to do on their shift, is supposed to, 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 when they make rounds in Control, they're 20 MR. : And should have that been 21 suppose - because we're supposed to take a 21 the Lieutenant, as in - it looks like 22 count on every shift. Especially in the off- 22 or -? 23 hours. So, before Epstein, that was a 23 MR. : Official preparing count, 24 responsibility. On the off-hours, you will be 24 official taking count. Those are going to be - 25 responsible for taking the count. So, that 25 so, the person that was taking that count would EFTA00111865 145 146 1 have been the OIC, then the person who actually 1 MR. : All right. And then -. 2 was there as a Lieutenant that was taking the 2 MR. reah, because I got a - look 3 count, normall we would sign it in red. 3 - I got a signature for this one, that was 4 MR. : Now, the Lieutenant, when 4 approved by the Operations Lieutenant right 5 you say they're there, aren't they in the 5 here. 6 Control Center? 6 MR. : And who was that? 7 MR. : They're in the Control Center 7 MR. What's - I don't know who 8 8 that signature is. 9 MR. And then, the SHU calls - 9 MR. All right. It looks like 10 10 would have been on duty, is that what 11 MR. -- while the Officers are 11 time? 12 doing the count. 12 MR. : That's going to be 4:00 p.m., 13 MR. Okay. So, the SHU calls 13 whoever took the 4:00 .m., that Lieutenant 14 in, says, we got the count, 72, 73, 74, 14 would have been 15 whatever it is. 15 MR. : Okay. Can we go to the 16 MR. Ed -hmm. 16 SHU count slips themselves? And that should be 17 MR. : And in this case, when 17 the last, like, page or two. 18 you look at the 4:00 p.m. though, you're seeing 18 MR. : See, yup. Those are the 19 that there was no Lieutenant that signed off on 19 inmates that went to the Attorney visiting. 20 that? 20 So, those three would have been on the count -- 21 MR. : No. 21 MR. • Mm-hmm. 22 MR. So, on the first page, as 22 MR. -- slip. Now, you said 23 well as the third page, was where they should 23 where? 24 have signed? 24 MR. The very last page. 25 MR. : Right. 25 It's, like, the actual slips. 147 148 1 MR. These? 1 Ten South is considered SHU, but I'm just 2 MR. : Yup. So, these are the 2 talking specific to, like, where Epstein was, 3 slips that the actual SHU - for the ones that 3 in the SHU. Like, who, you know, the -- 4 are in the SHU. Can you just put an initial by 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 it, or circle it, or whatever, which ones it is 5 MR. • -- I'm assuming the 72, 6 that would have been conducted at the SHU? 6 73 count. 7 MR. : Okay. I think it's Zulu 7 MR. : Yeah. Right here. That 8 Bravo. Zulu Al ha. 8 would have been the Zulu Bravo and the Zulu 9 MR. : So, ZA and ZB are the two 9 Alpha. 10 SHUs? 10 MR. All right. Great. And 11 MR. Miles. 11 are you able to tell me who all are on those 12 MR. : Are there any more than 12 slips? 13 that? 13 MR. : It says S. and Tova 14 MR. : You have - so, that's - 14 Noel, and 15 you've got Food Service. GS, (Indiscernible 15 MR. . Okay. 16 *00:12:11) Attorney visiting. That's Kilo 16 MR. And that would have been for 17 India. That's court. Kilo Zulu. Yes. So, 17 the 4:00. 18 Zulu Alpha would have been that, and then, that 18 MR. . All _fight. 19 would have been Ten South. 19 MR. : For M. IIIII, and Tova Noel, 20 MR. All right. So, Ten 20 for the 4:00 count. 21 South. 21 MR. Okay. And now, what is 22 MR. : Charlie Alpha. Charlie 22 the difference between the ZB and ZA? 23 Alpha. 23 MR. : I believe that ZA is the 24 MR. But no, just specific to 24 total SHU. 25 the SHU. Like, where? Not - I don't know if 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00111866 149 150 1 MR. : And then, then you had the 1 of. 2 inmates that were up on Ten South. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Okay. So, the ZB, is 3 MR. : You know what I'm saying? So, 4 that Ten South, then? 4 they feed us, they feed the ranges. They 5 MR. : Yes. 5 monitor the ranges by doing the 30-minute 6 MR. : So, we're focused on ZA? 6 rounds. So, the OIC has the key. So, those 7 MR. Yes. 7 other three staff - the number two, the three, 8 MR. : All right. So, ZA, and 8 and the four, I believe - they're supposed to 9 that one was signed by who? 9 do rounds, feed, do - issue cosmetics - do 10 MR. : It looks like Noel and 10 whatever they need to do as far as the normal 11 M. 11 operations inside the unit. So, if nobody 12 MR. : Now, if that count wasn't 12 counted, that means who count, who help assist 13 actually conducted, are they the only two that 13 in countin in Ten South? For the five guys. 14 are responsible for falsifying that, or would 14 MR. : Right. 15 the other_g9p1e -? 15 MR. : Because I believe the 16 MR. IIIIII: This would be the whole Unit. 16 Lieutenant is supposed to come up. Normally, 17 It would be -- 17 the Activities will go up, I believe, and do 18 MR. The whole Unit. 18 the count in Zulu Bravo. So, that means that 19 MR. -- the OIC, everybody that 19 one of the Lieutenants would be up in the unit 20 was in the Unit. 20 when the count was going on. 21 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, in this case, a 22 MR. : Because that means, on 22 Lieutenant should have actually been present? 23 evening watch, I believe you have one, two, 23 MR. 24 three, four staff, and they all have a 24 MR. : Which Lieutenant on that 25 different range that they have a responsibility 25 date would that have been? 151 152 1 MR. : So, that would have been -- 1 MR. : So, S. 2 MR. That was the August 9th. 2 MR. : So, who is S. ? 3 MR. -- that would have been -- 3 MR. : S. is one of the 4 MR. Are we looking at August 4 Officers. 5 9th? 5 MR. : What is the first name on 6 MR. : -- so, probably took 6 that? 7 the count. And then, R. - or Ms. 7 MR. : S. . And then, I'm 8 would have been in Ten South, 8 looking in here, so, Ten South number two is II 9 doing the count in Ten South, I believe. If I 9 , which is the Property Officer. So, 10 could remember. It's been a while. 10 during that time, I was hiring to go 11 MR. All right. So -. 11 up here and get the property situated on the 12 MR. recause it's only per - 12 evening watch. 13 there's only one staff member inside of Ten 13 MR. : So, is S. even 14 South. 14 working in the SHU at that point? I think he 15 MR. : So. Ms. should 15 would have had the first -- 16 have been resent for the count at 4:00 p.m.? 16 MR. : Because, you know, that - 17 MR. : Yeah. Because I'm looking, 17 because that would have been S. . Let 18 and you have Ten South number one was Mason. 18 me look at the day of, because I don't think he 19 And then, you had Ten South number two was II 19 would work that, because it said is 20 . So, probably was up there 20 the number one. 21 doing proiiiiiiiiii 21 MR. : And that's where I'm 22 MR. : Now, is this only for the 22 confused, by looking at some of these counts, 23 four, or should there have been a Lieutenant, 23 why would the even have -? 24 as well as in the 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 24 MR. : S. was on overtime. 25 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 25 So, was day watch. So, that means EFTA00111867 153 154 1 Mason probabl came in late. 1 Zulu Alpha. 2 MR. . 2 MR. Yeah, and who was on 3 MR. : So, probably did the 3 that? That's where I'm -. 4 count because Mason didn't get there. And now, 4 MR. Noel and 5 he was notorious for that. 5 MR. : So, and 6 MR. : Okay. 6 Noel would have been the one that did the 7 MR. Mason a good guy, but he 7 overall, but what you're saying is everyone 8 had some health problemsialTaybe he didn't 8 if the overall count was not conducted - 9 get there on time. So, went on ahead, 9 everyone was responsible? 10 and since the count started at 4:00, he 10 MR. : Yes. 11 probably went ahead and did the count. 11 MR. : For falsifying that? 12 MR. : All right. And are you 12 MR. Yup. 13 able to tell on that, does this have a time for 13 MR. : Because everyone would 14 when the count was supposedly conducted? 14 have known. 15 MR. : It's all of them going to 15 MR. They would have known -- 16 reflect 4:00. 16 MR. • That it wasn't conducted. 17 MR. Just 4:00. 17 MR. -- that it wasn't conducted. 18 MR. : 4:00. It's not going to say 18 MR. : Now, is there any kind 19 4:05, 4:04. The count is 4:00 p.m. 19 of, like, hey, we fed them, that's how we did 20 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 20 our count? 21 though, the one for the overall SHU, that would 21 MR. : No. Count - because I put 22 have been - you said - is that a (Indiscernible 22 this guidance out -- 23 *00:17:15), or are you just telling that's for 23 MR. : Yup. 24 the Ten South? 24 MR. : -- the difference between 25 MR. : Overall SHU would have been 25 doing rounds and accurate rounds, you know, we 155 156 1 talked about the timeframe that goes between 1 there. Okay, I'll feed the range, it took me 2 the 30-minute rounds. So, like, let's say it's 2 seven minutes, 7.9 seconds to feed a round. 3 11:00. You should do a round somewhere between 3 And so, that's telling me that you did a 4 11:00 and 11:30. You understand? 4 regular round for a hour, one hour, because you 5 MR. : Yup. 5 was up there for 4S minutes? No. Did you do a 6 MR. rf it's done at 11:29, that's 6 round? 7 fine. But you should be doing it within that 7 MR. • Right. 8 30-minutes because it has to be irregular. So, 8 MR. : Did you - can I physically 9 you can't put on there and said, I did rounds 9 watch youliiiiiiiiiell to cell? That's a round. 10 at 11:00, 11:30. 10 MR. : But what about - so, can 11 MR. r: 12:00. 11 a round can't be a count - but can a count be a 12 MR. : 12:00, 12:30. You know, you 12 round? 13 can't do it like that. So, let's say, you 13 MR. : No. 14 know, you're feeding up there, you're up t here 14 MR. : So, every 30 minutes, if 15 feeding, but that round is not going to be - 15 you're doing a count at 4:00, you also have to 16 because you're not monitoring, you're doing a 16 do a round at 4:00? 17 service. Just because you're on the range, 17 MR...up. 18 that means you did a round. A round is 18 MR. : Okay. 19 physically stopping what you're doing. So, if 19 MR. : Because if I go up there at 20 I'm feeding during the time it's supposed to, 20 4:00, if I go - let's say I start 4:00. At 21 I'm supposed to do a round, secure the slot, I 21 4:00, that's going to be that round. You 22 go to the beginning of the range. One, two, 22 understand what I'm saying? Because count, I'm 23 five, seven, nine, 11, whatever, whatever, 23 taking accountability of the unit, so, if it 24 whatever. Document the time I did the round. 24 takes probably two or three minutes a count, 25 Then go back to feeding. It's not while I'm up 25 that would be 4:03 that I count in that range. EFTA00111868 157 1581 1 I go to the next range. I'm done at 4:09. 1 until after the Epstein thing, we had to 2 4:16. 4:20. 4:27. Guess what? Between that 2 monitor the camera footage of what the SHU 3 30 to 5:00, I got to go do another round, in 3 staff did, and I was appalled to what they were 4 between that timeframe, not to exceed 40 4 doing on the off-hours. 5 minutes. That's the policy. 5 MR. : So now, after the fact, 6 MR. : Okay. Do you know 6 are you aware if any of these counts were 7 anything about the SHU not conducting rounds? 7 conducted or not conducted? 8 MR. : Do I know of SHU not 8 MR. : I was not made aware that no 9 conductiniiiiiiii 9 count was conducted because I do not monitor 10 MR. : If the personnel in the 10 camera footage of the staff -- 11 SHU. Do you know of anything about that, of 11 MR. No, I'm saying after -- 12 them -? 12 MR. -- so, I wouldn't know. 13 MR. : I would have never known that 13 MR. -- no, I'm saying after 14 those staff were not - because again, that's 14 the fact. So now. 15 not my purview. 15 MR. : Now, I know, and I was - and 16 MR. Sure. 16 again, when I had to monitor the footage per 17 MR. To sit down there and monitor 17 the new directive that was put out for the 18 18 Central Office, and the Captain would have to 19 MR. So -- 19 monitor X amount of hours of SHU footage per 20 MR. rounds. 20 week? Even after we had the situation with 21 MR. -- I just mean, like, had 21 Epstein, staff wasn't still doing it right. 22 anybody told -- 22 MR. : But in the - what I'm 23 MR. W N o. 23 asking is - in those instances, do you know if 24 MR. : -- told you this? 24 the 4:00, the 10:00, the 5:00, on these August 25 MR. : No. I would have never known 25 9th and August 10th, do you -- 159 160 1 MR. : I would have thought they 1 ever -- 2 would have been done. 2 MR. No. 3 MR. : -- but do you - now - do 3 MR. -- oh. Yeah. So, what 4 you know if they were or they weren't? 4 I'm sayin is -- 5 MR. : I was told that they were not 5 MR. : So, this is all new to me. 6 conducted. 6 MR. : -- okay. So, you didn't 7 MR. 4:00 p.m., as well? 7 - you had never heard, up until this date, that 8 MR. : I was told that the Officers 8 it's possible that the 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 9 that were assigned to the morning watch shift 9 p.m. were not conducted? 10 did not do rounds from the time they walked 10 MR. That is correct. 11 into that Unit until the time that they found 11 MR. : All right. And no one 12 inmate Epstein deceased in the cell. 12 ever brow ht that to your attention? 13 MR. : That, I think what you're 13 MR. : That is correct. 14 referring to is the August 10th -- 14 MR. : Okay. You can just 15 MR. : Yes. 15 speak. 16 MR. -- I'm saying August 9th. 16 MR. : Did you - what if I told you 17 MR. : August 9th. I would have not 17 there was a memo written by Officer 18 known that. 18 stating that he told Officers 19 MR. No, no, no, no. Now. 19 and Joiner that at 1:50 p.m., on August 9th, 20 I'm talkiiiiiiiut. 20 that inmate Reyes was going WAB, and possibly 21 MR. : Now, I'm aware of it. 21 not retur, 22 Because if the inmate didn't come back from 22 MR. : Hmm. Didn't know anything 23 court, hoiiiiiiiiiiclear court? 23 about that. 24 MR. : And did you know that 24 MR. : So, no one made you aware 25 prior to this conversation, though? Have you 25 about it? EFTA00111869 161 162 1 MR. : Nope. So, 1:50. If they 1 MR. -- he would be made aware by 2 knew that he was - like, I remember, I told you 2 who? 3 - that it comes out automatically, from R&D. 3 MR. : He would have been made by 4 It says, the X, Y, Z inmate won't be returning, 4 R&D staff. 5 so he needs to bring his belongings to court 5 MR. : Who was the R&D staff that 6 line. So, if they knew he was WAR, who 6 day? 7 informed him? Because I bet you, I can 7 MR. : Well, the only one I could - 8 guarantee, on that Sentry paperwork, that was 8 because he's not on our roster, he's not 9 generated that morning, that night - so, that 9 Correctional Services - I can only go by this. 10 would have been the 7th, because it's generated 10 MR. : And who is that? 11 on the 7th for the 8th - no, the 8th for the 11 MR. : Ms. Small. 12 9th, I know it didn't have WAB on it. 12 MR. : Ms. Small. Okay. 13 MR. : Okay. So, my question -- 13 MR. : But I can tell you Ms. Small, 14 MR. • What does WAB stand for? 14 she works from - I think her end shift is 15 MR. -- With All Belongings. 15 10:00. So, that means she would have been 16 MR. • Oh. 16 there around 2:00, because I think she worked 17 MR. : That's what you would -- 17 2:00 to 10:00. I don't think - on the weekends 18 MR. : Huh? 18 - I don't think the R&D staff stayed past 19 MR. WAB stands for With All 19 10:00, past 10:00. You understand what I'm 20 Belongings. Right? 20 saying? 21 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, and here's my question 22 MR. : So, they didn't stay past 23 for you. If Officer was aware of that 23 10:00. 24 24 MR. : So, my question is, if R&D 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 knew, should that Control document - on the 163 164 1 first page - should that have been updated by 1 column. 2 then? 2 MR. : Okay. Let's see. 3 MR. : Yup. This E-1 -- 3 MR. : Is there one that says ATTY? 4 MR. : So, is that -- 4 MR. : Okay. No, sir. I don't see 5 MR. : -- this E-1 should have - 5 ATTY on it. 6 this is not a correct E-1. 6 MR. : Can I see that for a second? 7 MR. : So, the E-1 is wrong? So, at 7 This one ri ht here. 8 that point, that 4:00 p.m. count, that out - 8 MR. : Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 9 what is that? The last column, what does that 9 MR. : I pointed to the first column 10 say? 10 that said it. 11 MR. : Which one, sir? 11 MR. : Okay. I'm sorry. Yes. It 12 MR. : The out count. The out count 12 shows that there was a total on the - a total 13 shouldn't have shown 1:00 for the SHU. 13 of three inmates that was out at Attorney, and 14 MR. : Right. Because it would have 14 out at Attorney visiting, during the 4:00 p.m. 15 said 2:00. You know what I'm saying? Because 15 count. 16 that means that out count from the SHU was 16 MR. : And one of them, did one of 17 Jeffrey E stein. 17 those inmates belong to the SHU? 18 MR. : If you look at it, is the 18 MR. : One of those was Zulu Alpha. 19 Epstein popping up on another column over 19 MR. : Okay. 20 there? Under attorney visit. 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : It should have been on -- 21 MR. : And then, at that point, they 22 MR. : Is there an Attorney -? 22 also - for Zulu Alpha - they're showing that 23 MR. : -- Attorney visiting. 23 one inmate was for - is still on out count, 24 MR. : Is he on there? On Attorney 24 which means possibly, that it's mentioning 25 visiting. At - check the first or second 25 Efrain Reyes, then? EFTA00111870 165 166 1 MR. : Okay. Now -- 1 of time, what we talked about before is, that 2 MR. : The last column. 2 means they would notify by me that he needed a 3 MR. : -- the last column, it says 3 cell mate? 4 out counts_ititill says 1:00 for Zulu Alpha. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. IIIIII: So, it should have been 5 MR. : They knew. They knew the 6 updated by then, being the fact that this is 6 expectation. So, that means - if you know 7 the 4:00 .m. count? 7 that, at 1:50 p.m. he wasn't coming back - that 8 MR. : Right. 8 means you should have got on the phone and 9 MR. : They should have been updated 9 contactediiiiiiiiiitions Lieutenant. 10 by then, because they got a notification at 10 MR. : And we discussed this. 11 1:50 that he's not coming back. 11 And -- 12 MR. : Correct. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : So, that E-1 document is 13 MR. -- and this is -- 14 wrong. 14 MR. Right. 15 MR. : Right. 15 MR. -- this is where we 16 MR. : I,ow L if told 16 talked about, if they did that, they let 17 Officers IIIIII, and Joiner that inmate 17 know, is the one who dropped the ball. 18 Reyes wasn't going WAB, and that Epstein would 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 need to be assigned a cell mate upon arrival 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 from his Attorney visit -- 20 MR. The next people that 21 MR. : Yes, sir. 21 would have done it would have been at the 4:00 22 MR. : -- Reyes has to communicate 22 p.m., the 10:00 p.m. type of count. They 23 where - who dropped the ball, and at that 23 should have then, notified the Operations -- 24 point? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. I mean, for the sake 25 MR. . -- Lieutenant at the same 167 168 1 time. 1 MR. : If you look at - yeah, the 2 MR. : Yes. 2 count. 3 MR. Correct. All right. And 3 MR. : So, if you go 8:00, 9:00, to 4 what you're saying, though, is - I think what 4 - we're goin to 08/10 now -- 5 you said, though, is during the morning shift, 5 MR. : What? 6 the zero dark hundred to 8:00 a.m., or I think 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:28:37). 7 it was 8:00 a.m., right? 7 MR. -- so, 08/10. 8 MR. Yes, sir. 8 MR. And she worked 10:00 p.m. 9 MR. : It's 8:00 a.m.? They 9 10 wouldn't have known. 10 MR. At -- 11 MR. : They wouldn't have known. 11 MR. : -- and she worked from 12 MR. Right. Because they -- 12 4:00 p.m. through. 13 MR. They wouldn't have known. 13 MR. : So, she wasn't (Indiscernible 14 MR. • -- because if the counts 14 *00:28:41 15 weren't done at 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., they 15 MR. : This is it right here. 16 wouldn't have necessarily known. 16 MR. : Oh, okay. 17 MR. : They wouldn't necessarily 17 MR. : Okay. 18 know. 18 MR. : So, this is it right here. 19 MR. : But what about, like, if 19 So, we're talking about 08/10/2019, that's 20 they had a conversation at 12:00 a.m. with the 20 going to be - so, this E-1 was generated at 21 Ops Lieutenant about the fact that the counts 21 003517 hours. 22 are off, re-do - or was it 10:00 p.m.? 22 MR. : On August 10th? 23 MR...t's midnight. 23 MR. rn August 10th. And this 24 MR. : The midnight one was the 24 shows that there's 72 inmates in SHU. 25 one where the count is -- 25 MR. : Can you look at the counts EFTA00111871 169 170 1 for that da 1 MR. • All right. This is what 2 MR. . The very last page. 2 happened. So, if I'm the Officers, I count, I 3 MR. : Yeah. 3 count the Unit, and they say 73. The Control 4 MR. Or it could be the second 4 Center would have been, like, no, bad count. 5 to last. So, I'm assuming you're looking for 5 They're not going to tell you what you counted. 6 ZA. 6 They're going to make you count again. So, the 7 MR. : Correct. 7 procedure is, once that bad count has been made 8 MR. And then, if you could 8 notified, the Control Center notifies the 9 just circle ZA, so we know what we're looking 9 Lieutenant, and the Lieutenant is supposed to 10 at. 10 go up to the Unit, to observe the count. 11 MR. : ZA. 11 MR. All right. So -- 12 MR. : What is the count on that? 12 MR. For -. 13 MR. : That is - it appears - it 13 MR. -- so, if the 14 says that the count on that day was 73. 14 Lieutenant i n this case, 15 MR. And that cleared count 15 MR. : Right. 16 was 72, correct? 16 MR. -- should have gone -- 17 MR. That is correct. 17 MR. Should have went to the -- 18 MR. Okay. Do you want to 18 MR. -- and observed. 19 follow up? 19 MR. -- went to SHU, to observe 20 MR. : If there was a mistake with 20 the count. 21 the count, and the Lieutenant caught onto the 21 MR. So, if there is a bad 22 mistake, what was the -- 22 count, that's -- 23 MR. : And the quota was the 23 MR. That's right. 24 protocols? 24 MR. • -- that's the protocol. 25 MR. : -- yeah. 25 MR. That's the policy. 171 172 1 MR. : Okay. 1 MR. : -- besides the inmate - it's 2 MR. ro, you go upstairs -. Well, 2 three things - an inmate died, your count being 3 I'm sorry. That's the expectation. 3 off, or an inmate escaping. Those are the big 4 MR. So, expectation, not 4 things right there. If your count is bad - 5 policy. 5 because that's what we get paid to do - we're 6 MR. : I can't - I'm not going to 6 the masters of count, that's what we do, 7 sit up here and quote policy when I don't know 7 accountability of inmates, in a Correctional 8 it verbatim. 8 setting. That's what you do. That's what 9 MR. : Absolutely. 9 you're paid for. So, you call me, as a 10 MR. rut I will tell you the 10 Lieutenant, and you tell me, hey, LT., we keep 11 expectation is that Supervisor - Correctional 11 counting the unit, and the unit, and the count 12 Services - a Lieutenant, on an announcement of 12 is bad. So, the next thing I'm going to tell 13 a bad count will go to the area of the count, 13 you, give me some staff up there. I want a 14 and will observe the said count. 14 standup bed book. 15 MR. : What if the Supervisor 15 MR. : So, if they say that -- 16 claims that, when they called in the count, and 16 MR. : -- so then, I'm going to 17 they said 73, they said, hey, we're calling in 17 identify each inmate by their face, and their 18 73, but we know we're off by one? Does that 18 cell assii,tine get the count. 19 make any sense? 19 MR. : So, what if they say, 20 MR. : That doesn't. That means the 20 we're off by one, but we know where that one 21 institutions count is going to be bad, which -- 21 is? That one is over there. And then, the 22 MR. And then, then that -- 22 Lieutenant res onds -- 23 MR. -- that is the worst thing 23 MR. : But they know -- 24 that you can -- 24 MR. : -- all right, I'm going 25 MR. And -. 25 to go verify where that one staff is, you redo EFTA00111872 173 174 1 the count. Would that make sense? 1 So, the policy is, the Lieutenant is on there, 2 MR. : No. What I'm telling you is 2 I'm going to watch you do it, and so, that's 3 when it was su osed to have been done. 3 the second count. The third count is the 4 MR. Okay. 4 standing bed book count. That I used the bed 5 MR. : Because -. 5 book cards, and I go cell by cell, and I make 6 MR. So, even if they said, 6 the inmates say their name and number, and I 7 like, hey, vie wrote down 73, but that - so, 7 physicall identif them by their face. 8 let's say Thomas, who is not a typical SHU guy- 8 MR. : All right. 9 he's the one that calls this in. He says, I 9 MR. : If that don't work, all of 10 wrote down 73 on the count slip, but that's 10 this stuff is supposed to be annotated in the 11 because one our guys that we're counting for is 11 log, that bad count one, bad count two, SHU 12 over at -- 12 reports bad count three. Bed book count was 13 MR. R&D. 13 identified. The next thing would have been, 14 MR. -- let's say R&D. And -- 14 was to go back through the prior counts to see 15 MR. Okay. So -- 15 of the movement, of who was in or out, because 16 MR. -- and then, the 16 if your count cleared here, at 10:00, you only 17 Lieutenant then says, I'm going to go verify 17 had one out of the unit, which was Epstein. 18 that that person is there, you reconduct the 18 When he came back, that means your count should 19 count, and create a new count slip. 19 have went from - if it was 72 here - that's 20 MR. : Okay. So, it was one RA - I 20 telling me that it must have been 71. At - 21 believe that's R&D. RA, I believe, is R&D. 21 boom. So, it was 76 -- 22 Right? No. So, in R&D, there was nobody in 22 MR. : Is that the 4:00 p.m. count? 23 R&D. There's no one -- 23 MR. : -- yeah. It was 76. Then, 24 MR. : So, what if the -. 24 at the 10:00 count, on the 9:30 count, it was 25 MR. : -- there's no one in R&D. 25 73. So, where did those three inmates go? 175 176 1 Where did those inmates go? So, somebody was in 1 done inside of a unit, like SHU, the OIC is 2 there messing with the numbers in order for the 2 supposed to do it. If a Case Manager and Unit 3 count to clear. 3 Manager, or a Counselor, moves the inmate on 4 MR. : In order to find out 4 the unit, guess what? They're supposed to make 5 where they went is it, we have to go into 5 that Sentry - (Indiscernible *00:35:49) PP-34 6 TRUSCOPE (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:52)? Is that 6 transaction in Sentry to make the appropriate 7 where we would have to find -- 7 move. 8 MR. : You would - you could go in 8 MR. So, looking at these, do 9 the TRU - most - Sentry is supposed to be full- 9 you believe that they're all -- 10 proof, all- roof 10 MR. These all bad. 11 MR. Okay. So, Sentry. 11 MR. -- they're all bad? 12 MR. : But it's only as good as the 12 MR. Mm-hmm. All. 13 people that's utting the information in there. 13 MR. . All of them? 14 MR. : Sure. Sure. 14 MR. They're all bad. All bogus. 15 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. All right. So, 4:00 p.m. 16 MR. And are the SHU the 16 through -. 17 people that are putting the information in, or 17 MR. : The Control Center, R&D. 18 is it the Control Center? 18 It's bad. 19 MR. : So, this is what happens. In 19 MR. • Okay. 20 theory, you've got - when inmates come back 20 MR. : lust a clarifying question. 21 from court, and they do the transfer orders, 21 Can a person do a count - let's just say they 22 and it goes down to Control, R&D is supposed to 22 know someone is in a different unit - can they 23 update those inmates coming back in. Control 23 say, oh, I know the person is out of the unit, 24 Center gets the transfer order, and they're 24 and I'm going to count them as part of my unit, 25 verifying. Any time any internal movement is 25 and just give the count number. Are they EFTA00111873 177 178 1 allowed to do that, or -- 1 that Reyes was released from court." And 2 MR. : No. 2 again, on that note, would have been the Ops 3 MR. : -- do they have to physically 3 Lieutenant that would have been responsible to 4 have to g2x2m_2il them? 4 tell you, for instance -- 5 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, it's only - who - the 5 MR. : Yes. 6 amount of inmates that are in their unit at 6 MR. -- if someone heard -- 7 that time. 7 MR. : If you would recall, he 8 MR. Correct. 8 should have - because he know the - he knew the 9 MR. Okay. 9 expectation. 10 MR. That's it. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : All right. Let's keep 11 MR. : So, by our previous 12 going on this. Thank you for that. That's 12 conversation, they knew the expectation. But 13 hugely helpful. So, "Inmates' cell mates are 13 again, thiiiiiiiiiiot to follow the playbook. 14 moved for various reasons, including but not 14 MR. : Okay. "Typically, if an 15 limited to an incident in the cell, visits to 15 inmate is likely to be discharged or 16 court, legal library, medical, and recreation. 16 transferred following court, their property was 17 On Friday, August 9, 2019, Epstein's cell mate, 17 retrieved from their cell, boxed and secured 18 Reyes, had court. It would not be uncommon for 18 with a property form, by receiving and 19 Reyes to be out of his cell for an extended 19 discharged staff. All items are normally 20 period. Epstein had an Attorney session that 20 accounted for, and inventoried. In order to 21 day. Epstein's Attorney was processed into the 21 enter the SHU, all staff not assigned there 22 facility in the morning, and Epstein was 22 must identify themselves and sign a logbook, 23 brought down to the Attorney room." And you 23 and then be physically escorted by a 24 said that that was preiiiiiich seven days a 24 Correctional Officer. Alternatively, the staff 25 week? With Epstein. " was not notified 25 can pick up inmate property at the Unit door. 179 180 1 A Correctional Officer assigned to the SHU 1 hired anybody. I'll pay you overtime to sit on 2 would have been aware that Reyes' - or any 2 this guy until I got him - I would have kept 3 inmates - belongings were removed. At this 3 him in Attorney conference, right there - until 4 time, the Correctional Officer should notify a 4 I got him a cell mate. I wouldn't have had to 5 Lieutenant, who would in turn brief 5 put him on psych - you're not - that's not - I 6 was not notified that Reyes' belongings 6 apologize - I can't do that. 7 were removed. advised that if he had 7 MR. : All right. So, this line 8 known that Epstein was without a cell mate, he 8 where you said you would have likely put him -- 9 would have likely put Epstein on psychological 9 MR. : No. 10 observation." But now you're saying you 10 MR. : -- that's not correct? 11 probably would have put him off -- 11 MR. : No, I wouldn't have done 12 MR. : I would have not put him on 12 that. 13 psych obs, because I can't. 13 MR. . Okay. 14 MR. : Right. You would have 14 MR. : That's - because like I said 15 put him in Fox -? 15 in my earlier statement - if it would have been 16 MR. : I would have probably put him 16 after the hours of operation, let's say 17 - if he was already - if I would have known, 17 everybody - at 8:00, when he went back to the 18 between those hours of 1:50 to 4:00, I would 18 cell in SHU, and because I was still there, I 19 say, keep him in the Attorney conference, 19 would have said, no, put him in R&O. Because I 20 because guess what? I've got a staff member 20 got R&D staff there until 10:00 21 right there. And where he was, there's a room 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 here, so we normally kept him in these first 22 MR. M. would have called the AW. 23 two rooms. So, you could see him. So, I would 23 I would have called the Warden. And 24 just say, hey, just have somebody stay there, 24 unfortunately, we would have the - somebody 25 and I would have hired somebody. I would have 25 would have to come in - and we would have been EFTA00111874 181 182 1 there later than vetting a cell mate for him. 1 But it was who called you? 2 MR. : Right. And it says, 2 MR. : Yes, it was. 3 is not aware of any Lieutenants knowing 3 MR. Okay. " inquired 4 that Reyes' roperty was moved." 4 about E stein's cell mate, and was surprised to 5 MR. : We didn't know. 5 hear respond that Epstein did not a cell 6 MR. Okay. Well, that you 6 mate." 7 know of. may have. 7 MR. Ildat is correct. 8 MR. : He may have. 8 MR. : So, you immediately said, 9 MR. But he didn't tell you. 9 where is the cell mate? 10 MR. Of course. 10 MR. ..es. 11 MR. Right. 11 MR. : Okay. Yeah. Now, this 12 MR. He didn't tell me. 12 is, again, where I'm getting confused because 13 MR. "On Saturday, August 10, 13 in the report, they - again - say, " 14 2019, received a phone call from 14 worked a 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. shift on 15 Lieutenant around 7:00 a.m." 15 August 9, 2019 -- 16 MR. : No, that's not accurate. 16 MR. Right. 17 MR. Okay. 17 MR. -- and you're saying 18 MR. : I received the phone call 18 that's noslight? 19 from Lieutenant IIII, I believe it was between 19 MR. IIIIII: No. He would have worked 20 the hours - approximately - 6:35, between 6:35 20 2:00 to 10:00. 21 and 6:45-50. 21 MR. And did he work on August 22 MR. Okay. 22 9th, 2:00 to 10:00? 23 MR. Somewhere in there. 23 MR. August 9th, on -- 24 MR. "And was told that 24 MR. I thought we -- 25 Epstein was found unresponsive in his cell." 25 MR. -- Right here? 183 184 1 MR. -- I thought we said on 1 don't look like this back on the day the roster 2 August 9tLit_didn't work. 2 was printed initially inputted. 3 MR. IIIIII: He wasn't there. On August 3 MR. So, someone would have 4 9th, he wasn't there. 4 changed it? 5 MR. . All right. 5 MR. Somebody went in here and 6 MR. So, it's supposedly -- 6 changed it. 7 MR. : So, from 4:00 p.m. to 7 MR. But does that mean that - 8 10:00 p.m. who was there? 7 8 9 MR. : Yeah. But, like, this thing, 9 MR. ..nd I can tell you -- 10 like, wheniii. saying he's non-custody, 10 MR. : -- this is inaccurate, or 11 because you can see these rosters -- 11 the other was inaccurate? 12 MR. : So, was - so, the 12 MR. : -- this is inaccurate. I can 13 two - and the Activities Lieutenant was 13 tell you why because , one, this is how 14 correct? 14 - because I was, like, , non-custody? 15 MR. : See, let me - can I school 15 Why would he make sure that said non-custody? 16 you on somethin ? 16 Now, , I temp prompted him to 11. I 17 MR. : Absolutely. Please. 17 temp promote him to 11. 18 MR. : Let me just school you on 18 MR. : Can you circle that? 19 something. 19 MR. : Because he couldn't have been 20 MR. Please. That's why we're 20 in the institution by himself. 21 here. 21 MR. : So, you think that he 22 MR. : These rosters, you see when 22 went in there and put in that (Indiscernible 23 you printed this roster? You printed this 23 *00:42:09 24 roster here. That says, 06/02/2021. That's 24 MR. : I'm not going to say that. 25 this year. I can guarantee you the roster 25 MR. But that's not what -- EFTA00111875 185 186 1 MR. But what I will -- 1 MR. So, was sick 2 MR. : -- what it normally would 2 leave. 3 say? 3 MR. : changed him 4 MR. : No. Because he become non- 4 on the roster on 08 09 at 8:58 a.m., on 5 custody until, I think it was when he got out 5 Friday, August 9. was relieving an 6 of non-custody and became a Counselor, I 6 Officer on 08/09, 09, but as you see, where you 7 believe that wasn't until 2020. Not 2020. I 7 see N.C. at? 8 think it was the last part of '19, going into 8 MR. What are we looking for? 9 '20, or something like that. He was still on 9 MR. : N.C. Non-custody. It's not 10 Correctional Services. But the thing about 10 there. 11 this roster, all of these pages right here, any 11 MR. Oh, and it would have. 12 time you make a change, it tells you the date 12 So, somebody went in, at some point, and put - 13 and time of the change. So, let's go here. 13 and if he put non-custody, was that somebody 14 Time change. Activities Lieutenant R. 14 trying to cover up, like, hey, I had nothing to 15 That was done on 08/09, C.P., who - you've got 15 do with that? 16 to find out who C.P. was. 16 MR. : I wasn't in custody at that 17 MR. But 08/09. That was 17 time. He put me in there because, you know, 18 prior to the incident. 18 why would I do that? You're a Lieutenant. 19 MR. : 08/09, 09. 08/09. That was 19 MR. : So, it's somebody trying 20 done in 9:09 a.m. 20 to say, like hey -- 21 MR. (Indiscernible 21 MR. : I don't know. I got -- 22 *00:43:13 22 MR. • -- I got -. 23 MR. : The Ops Lieutenant. It was 23 MR. • -- I would have to -- 24 So, took sick leave on that 24 MR. Look into it. 25 day, and -- 25 MR. -- go through it. 187 188 1 MR. But that's something that 1 MR. : -- Epstein's -- 2 we should address with 2 MR. Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : That's something you've got 3 MR. • -- incident. 4 to do, from the time you printed one - look, 4 MR. Okay. 5 when you printed one of these rosters, right? I S MR. Those two copies of that 6 can guarantee you, if you go back to the S83 6 roster should be in there. 7 packet, and print out the roster for 08/09 and 7 MR. : Okay. Good point. We'll 8 08/10 of 2019, it's not going to mirror the 8 go back and look at that. 9 same. It's going to be changed. It's not 9 MR. : But you printed a couple 10 going to be the same. 10 weeks ago, it's not going to say the - it 11 MR. : And do we have the 11 should. 12 ability to do that? 12 MR. : So, up to - so, just to 13 MR. : Sure. 13 clarify - up to 08/09 that morniiiiii8:58 14 MR. To go -. 14 a.m., before that time, it was 15 MR. It should be in the S83. 15 schedule? 16 MR. So, we -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. The 583 for the incident 17 MR. : That means he called in and 18 MR. Yup. 18 - C.P. - at 8:58 a.m. on 19 MR. -- that occurred? 19 August 9th changed it over to 20 MR. Mm-hmm. 20 MR. InCorrect. 21 MR. You understand? 21 MR. : So, I wonder why - okay. 22 MR. And that will have that 22 All right. So that is inaccurate. 23 roster in 23 MR. : One more question. Sorry. 24 MR. For Jeffrey -- 24 MR. So, go ahead. 25 MR. Yup. 25 MR. : That C.P., can anyone enter EFTA00111876 189 190 1 C.P., or it's what it was in the system? 1 aware because he had informed his Lieutenants 2 MR. And we did know that. 2 repeatedly, and instructed them to pass this 3 This is on this. 3 message along, and convey the information among 4 MR. : Okay. 4 themselves." Is that correct? 5 MR. : Okay. 5 MR...es. 6 MR. : Okay. Anyone enter C.P., or 6 MR. did not hold a 7 7 formal all Lieutenants meeting regarding 8 MR. No. 8 Epstein, or send an all staff e-mail with the 9 MR. -- or is it -? 9 Warden's directive." 10 MR. : Because when you log-in the 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 roster pro ram -- 11 MR. However, you did send 12 MR. : Okay. It's a system. 12 emails with re and to -- 13 MR. : -- it's done by your PIV card 13 MR. : Yes. 14 number. 14 MR. -- the way that they were 15 MR. : Okay. No problem. That's 15 supposed to act, and their duties and 16 it. 16 responsibilities. 17 MR. Okay. 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. Thank you. 18 MR. : And you'll send me that? 19 MR. • All right. And it says 19 MR. Yeah. 20 that, Lieutenant is the one who did 20 MR. : Okay. "He verbally 21 the 10:00 .m. to 6:00 a.m. shift. 21 instructed his Lieutenants on an informal and 22 MR. : Correct. 22 individual basis, as many as possible with whom 23 MR. : It says, " did not 23 he had the opportunit . On Saturday morning, 24 personally tell that Epstein required 24 Au 10, 2019, was relived early by 25 a cell mate at all times. He believed she was 25 IIII." Now, as far as goes - 191 192 1 - her claiming she didn't - if 1 MR. : They was working 10:00 to 2 she's claiming she didn't know, and if you 2 6:00. 3 didn't specifically tell her, who should have 3 MR. Yup. 4 told her? Or how should have she known? 4 MR. : So, by the time I walked in 5 MR. : How she would have known is, 5 the door, she would be gone. 6 is that, when she did rounds, she would have 6 MR. But what I'm saying is, 7 saw those cards. 7 if she's leaving before 6:00, is that -? 8 MR. : No, no, no. Okay. So -- 8 MR. : Now, before 6:00, that would 9 MR. : She would have known that 9 be a problem. 10 these inmates are high visibility. And the 10 MR. So, even, like, ten 11 guidance was already out, so, it was 11 minutes before is that a problem? 12 disseminating throughout the Unit. So, the 12 MR. : Not really. 13 staff was aware. So, of course, probably in, 13 MR. Okay. 14 you know, with her, we didn't have a good 14 MR. : Not really. Because if the 15 relationship, but regardless of the fact is, is 15 relieving person gets there, because knowing 16 that I made the Lieutenants aware of my 16 the Lieutenants, some Lieutenants come an hour 17 expectations. 17 early. Some Lieutenants come ten, 15 minutes 18 MR. . Mm-hmm. 18 early. It's List whatever -- 19 MR. : So, even though I might not 19 MR. : Okay. 20 have told her because she worked the morning 20 MR. : -- happens. Sometimes the 21 watch shift, and by 6:00, she would be gone. I 21 Lieutenant has to work late, because they have 22 wouldn't see her. 22 an incident, or they have administrative duties 23 MR. : Now, was that abnormal 23 they have to finish after their shift, which is 24 for her to leave before 6:00, before her shift 24 fine, but they for that. 25 is done? 25 MR. : Right. Okay. "In the EFTA00111877 193 194 1 SHU, 30-minute rounds need to be completed 1 morning watch, at midnight. SHU One and SHU 2 consistently, at non-uniform intervals, within 2 Two. SHU Two is responsible for completing 3 a 40-minute timeframe. The purpose of these 3 rounds." They're both technically responsible. 4 rounds is to ensure that good order is being 4 Correct? 5 maintained, there is no suspicious activity, 5 MR. Right. 6 and all inmates are accounted for and MR. : And so, is the SHU Two 7 responsive. 30-minute rounds are documenting 7 usually the Officer-in-Charge? 8 in TRUSCOPE, which serves as an electronic 8 MR. : Right. So, basically what 9 logbook. After a round is physically done, the 9 would have happened is, they're supposed to, 10 Correctional Officer can log into TRUSCOPE and 10 you know, because one has the key. So, I do a 11 press a button, certifying that the round was 11 round, I come back, then you do a round. Same 12 completed. Unfortunately, sometimes Officers 12 thing wheiliiiiiiiithe count. 13 do not complete a 30-minute round or exceed the 13 MR. : Now, is it the same thing 14 40-minute threshold. TRUSCOPE also documents 14 with counts and rounds, like -- 15 from what location, terminal the rounds are 15 MR. : No, no, I'm sorry, with the 16 logged." 16 count. 17 MR. That'iliiiit. 17 MR. -- so, with a round, if 18 MR. is aware of at 18 rounds aren't being conducted, does that also 19 least two terminals located in the SHU. The 19 mean that everybody in the Unit is to blame? 20 only way to determine if a 30-minute round was 20 Not just -- 21 physically completed is to check the video 21 MR. : Yes. 22 surveillance footage." 22 MR. -- okay. 23 MR. That is correct. 23 MR. Right, because -- 24 MR. : "There are two 24 MR. So, it would be -- 25 Correctional Officers assigned to the SHU on 25 MR. -- because it, in essence, 195 196 1 afterhours, that Lieutenant should go up there 1 be responsible because you didn't sign it. But 2 and observe the count. 2 if I said, if I didn't sign it, then I'm going 3 MR. : No, but what I'm saying 3 to tell you why. I said, we didn't do the 4 is, like, if a round is signed off on, by one 4 count. I'm oin to put a memo in. 5 person, but everybody in the Unit, nobody in 5 MR. : So, what I'm -- 6 the Unit did it, and not just the person who 6 MR. : I'm going to let the 7 signed the round, but also everyone else is 7 Lieutenant know. It's a big -- 8 also responsible for that falsified round? 8 MR. 9 MR. : Right. 9 MR. -- that's going to be a big 10 MR. • Okay. 10 situation. 11 MR. : Everybody -- 11 MR. I guess what I'm saying 12 MR. : It's the same thing for 12 is, like, all right, so, in these count slips 13 counts? 13 specificall ., there's two -- 14 MR. : -- yeah, it don't matter. If 14 MR. : Two signatures. 15 you're on the roster, and you're assigned to 15 MR. -- two signatures. 16 that Unit, and a falsified document goes up, 16 MR. Correct. 17 and you said, like, me and you count, I know we 17 MR. But there's four people 18 didn't count, but I sign that, and you sign it 18 working. 19 19 MR. Right. So, whoever -- 20 MR. No, what I'm saying is -- 20 MR. • So, are the other two 21 MR. -- then we both -- 21 people that aren't working, if they didn't 22 MR. -- what I'm saying is, if 22 report it -- 23 you sign it, I don't sign it, but we're both 23 MR. : Right. 24 responsible? 24 MR. • -- they're also 25 MR. : Right. No. You're going to 25 responsible? EFTA00111878 197 198 1 MR. : Yes. 1 MR. 2 MR. : All right. Okay. 2 MR. : -- they were simply 3 MR. And then, on the morning 3 taking the count 4 watch, there's onl two people in the unit. 4 MR. : Counting in Control. 5 MR. • Right. 5 MR. -- in the Control Room. 6 MR. : So, they're both complicit. 6 Okay. 7 MR. : And I know you said bad 7 MR. : That is Control. That is 8 count, Officer should come down. How often 8 correct. 9 should - I mean, a Lieutenant should come down 9 MR. Okay. ' was aware 10 - how often should Lieutenants be observing 10 that the camera system in the SHU was down. He 11 counts? 11 left early on Thursday, when the discussion 12 MR. : Okay. Okay. 12 about the camera system would have occurred. 13 MR. • In the SHU. Let's talk 13 Mr. -", what is Mr. first 14 about specifically for the SHU. 14 name? 15 MR. : Well, in the SHU? In the SHU, 15 MR. : I can't remember his first 16 a Lieutenant should have been monitoring that - 16 name. 17 I believe that Ten South count. 17 MR. Now, is he, like, a C.O., 18 MR. : Ten South. What about, 18 though? Or like -- 19 like, wheiiiiiitein was, in regular SHU? 19 MR. • No. He would be -- 20 MR. : Well, no, but we didn't 20 MR. • -- a BOP employee? 21 implement that until after the Epstein 21 MR. : -- he's COMTECH (Phonetic Sp. 22 incident. 22 *00:52:39iiIIIIIIII 23 MR. : All right. So, up to 23 MR. : COMTECH, but a BOP 24 August 10th, Lieutenants were not observing 24 employee? 25 counts -- 25 MR. : Yes. 199 200 1 MR. r: "The camera technician 1 MR. M.o. 2 notified that he was worliigon the 2 MR. : All right. And would 3 system earlier that week, but did not 3 anyone else have known that a SHU camera was 4 know specifics and was not informed that the 4 down? 5 cameras were not functioning. Since the -", 5 MR. (Phonetic Sp. 6 so, you didn't know that any of the TRU cameras 6 *00:53:26iiIIIIIIII 7 may have been out? 7 MR. • ? And who is 8 MR. M No. 8 9 MR. : Okay. "Since the -", and 9 R. : He would be the General 10 who would have been - was he the one 10 Foreman. 11 responsible for that? 11 MR. • Okay. 12 MR. : Yes. So -. 12 MR. Over Facilities. 13 MR. So, if he's notified that 13 MR. : So, those two people 14 the camera is now out, how soon thereafter 14 would have been the ones that knew this camera 15 should heliiiiihat up and running? 15 is out, and they should have notified you? 16 MR. : No. If he was aware that the 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 camera system was down and was not working, he 17 MR. And they did not? 18 should have contacted me, and then, I would 18 MR. No. 19 immediately contact the AW and the Warden 19 MR. Okay. Do you know, at 20 because -- 20 this point - and I'm not talking about at the 21 MR. • And in this instance -- 21 time, but now - do you know what was down and 22 MR. -- that's a Security 22 for how lon ? 23 situation. 23 MR. : I don't know. 24 MR. -- so, in this instance, 24 MR. No? Okay. 25 he didn't do that? 25 MR. : I can't remember. I don't EFTA00111879 201 202 1 even - that's - I don't remember. 1 MR. : That, I don't know that for - 2 MR. : Do you know if a camera 2 3 in the SHU was ever down? 3 MR. • You're not sure? 4 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. -- yeah, no. 5 MR. Okay. What camera? 5 MR. : Oka . But again, if it 6 MR. : I know that there were issues 6 was, it would have been and - what did 7 with the cameras because we had done a program 7 you say the last name was? ? 8 review before then, and there was cameras down 8 MR. Christopher 9 in Ten South. So, we had got those fixed. You 9 MR. And how do you spell that 10 know, in the 10 last name? 11 MR. Mm-hmm. 11 MR. 12 MR. -- in the individual cells. 12 MR. Can you say that one more 13 MR. Yup. 13 time? 14 MR. : And then, there was a camera 14 MR. 15 system that was down because I believe they was 15 MR. Perfect. 16 doing some type of maintenance on the ranges, 16 MR. 17 or something like that, that everyone was aware 17 MR. Okay. Thank you. 18 of. That's all I can remember. 18 MR. : lust had a quick question. 19 MR. : Okay. 19 Who was that conversation about, the 20 MR. : And I don't remember 20 discussion? You mentioned there was a 21 specifics and timeframes, but -. 21 discussion -- 22 MR. : All right. But you don't 22 MR. : Mr. 23 know specifically if, like, for instance, the 23 MR. : -- no, you -- 24 range that Epstein was on, that camera was out 24 MR. : You say -. 25 or not? 25 MR. : -- when that discussion would 203 204 1 have happened. 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. . Oh. 2 MR. : To go to my medical 3 MR. : Right? I think that's the 3 appointments. So, if there was a meeting that 4 date of (Indiscernible *00:55:07). 4 was convened about the camera systems, I wasn't 5 MR. : Well, no, it says, "Mr. 5 present at that meeting. 6 , the Camera Technician, notified 6 MR. : But whatever -- 7 that he was working on the system earlier that 7 MR. : However, I know that a camera 8 week." He's saying that he left early 8 project was going on during that time, which 9 Thursday, when the discussion about the camera 9 Mr. was responsible for installing the 10 system would have occurred. 10 new - I don't know what - I can't remembering 11 MR. : Would have. So, he should 11 what you call it - but it's a system, because 12 known -- 12 our system was antiquated, so they was doing 13 MR. If there was a 13 camera re airs. So -- 14 conversation. But you don't know that there 14 MR. • Okay. 15 was? 15 MR. • -- there was certain cameras 16 MR. : No. 16 down, in certain areas of the institution. But 17 MR. : Okay. Sorry. 17 he was actively working on that. 18 MR. : Because, like, in close out, 18 MR. Okay. 19 or if there was something with the Warden that 19 MR. : So. 20 day, normally on Thursdays, at times, you know, 20 MR. So, if there was a 21 it was for my - I have a disease. So, I would 21 meeting, that you are not aware of, on 22 go for blood work on Thursdays, when I could, 22 Thursday, who would have been present for it? 23 if an institution emergency, you know, but 23 MR. : For a meeting with the 24 normally, on Thursday, I would leave early on 24 Warden? 25 Thursdays. I would take a half a day. 25 MR. It would have been with EFTA00111880 2os 206 1 the Warden? 1 MR. But you weren't involved 2 MR. : Yeah. It would have been - I 2 with a meetin like that? 3 mean, the Warden would have known if someone 3 MR. : No. 4 had a meeting about the camera system being 4 MR. : And you don't know of a 5 down, and then, probably the Facilities 5 meeting talon place? 6 Manager, which is IIIIII. It would have been 6 MR. : No. 7 the AW of Custod at that time, which would 7 MR. • Okay. Would it have 8 have been Ms. . And of course, it 8 taken place every day that the camera was down, 9 would have been the Warden. 9 or just the first day? 10 MR. : Didn't ou sa it was 10 MR. : There would have been an 11 actually somebody else? was no 11 update because the person that falls under 12 longer the custody? 12 that, the contact, is . So, the AW over 13 MR. : Ms. IIII. Ms. was 13 Facilities would have wanted an update, weekly 14 there, but she had just got there. So -- 14 report, as well as the Captain. 15 MR. Okay. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. -- she was over another 16 MR. : Because that's a Security 17 discipline. So, that would have been the 17 issue. So, we would have wanted - but the 18 meeting with the executive staff. 18 camera system was down because of - I think it 19 MR. Okay. So, it was the 19 was some routine maintenance that they was 20 executive staff meeting. Would that meeting 20 doing anywa 21 also have taken place if the cameras are still 21 MR. • Okay. 22 down on Friday? Would it have taken place on 22 MR. So -. 23 Friday, as well? 23 MR. • Now, would any 24 MR. : That would have been Friday, 24 Lieutenants or SHU staff have known that the 25 as well. 25 camera was down? 207 208 1 MR. : Some - I mean, they don't 1 receiving the phone call from IIII on the 2 have the abilit to monitor. 2 morning of Saturday, August 10 2019 3 MR. • Right. 3 notified Associate Warden , who 4 MR. : But, you know, of course, the 4 informed the Warden. also attempted to 5 ones in Ten South, you know -- 5 call Institution Duty Officer, Nathaniel 6 MR. Yeah, where they are live 6 7 monitorin, 7 MR. Yup. 8 MR. : Yeah. The live monitoring. 8 MR. To Chaplin, and in the 9 So, of course. 9 building, to get more information." What does 10 MR. And do you know - and you 10 that meaniiiiiiIn the building"? Do you know? 11 don't know, though, even to this date, if a 11 MR. : So, basically, you know, it 12 camera was, in fact, down? 12 was just -- 13 MR. : I can't remember. 13 MR. : Like, the main number? 14 MR. In fact? 14 MR. M.- it was just a bunch of, 15 MR. : I don't know. 15 you know, people that we tried to notify, I 16 MR. Okay. No. That's fine. 16 tried to notify. So, I think I notified Ms. 17 I was just goi ng to ask, even if it wasn't 17 of course. She notifies the 18 recording, do you know if it was, like, being a 18 Warden. I notified the IDO. I said, hey, 19 live monitor or anything like that -- 19 because inmate death, they needed me coming 20 MR. : Right. 20 into the institution, because that's one of 21 MR. -- or it could have been. 21 their off times, so they needed to be making a 22 MR. : Yeah. 22 - because they're going to be responsible for 23 MR. • But you're unaware? 23 making certain calls to the Region. I notified 24 MR. : I'm unaware. 24 the Chaplin, because Chaplin made sure, 25 MR. Okay. Okay. So, "After 25 (Indiscernible *00:59:19) also, I believe I EFTA00111881 209 210 1 informed them to call (Phonetic Sp. 1 because what happens is, these things will come 2 *00:59:2i t ie.ch was the Executive Assistant. 2 up missin then ou have no evidence. 3 I think or I may have called Mr. 3 MR. Okay. 4 Johnson, the Attorney, for MCC. 4 MR. So, I secured count slips, 5 MR. • Okay. 5 the E-ls. I went to SHU. I got all of the 6 MR. And I'm trying to think who 6 logbooks that I knew where Epstein had been. I 7 else. 7 grabbed those logbooks. I went to SHU. I took 8 MR. No, that's fine. 8 his inmate SHU file from the Special Housing, 9 MR. Was there. 9 plus all of the round sheets (Indiscernible 10 MR. : And it says that, "He 10 *01:00:34iiIIIIIIII 11 went to the MCC, arriving before 8:00 a.m., 11 MR. : This actually says "He 12 approximatel ." 12 could not locate Epstein's inmate file." Do 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 you remember that? 14 MR. : "Upon arrival, 14 MR. : It was a file, but it had 15 screened in and retrieved his gear from the 15 limited stuff in there. 16 third floor. He went to the SHU and signed the 16 MR. : Okay. 17 logbook. He gathered any records pertaining to 17 MR. ro, his actual file, yeah, it 18 Epstein, including the 30-minute round logbook, 18 had his picture, had a couple things on there, 19 the Attorney conference logbook, count slips, 19 but it wasn't an in it. 20 and E-ls." What are E-ls? 20 MR. : So, when this says, "Not 21 MR. : So, all this stuff right 21 locate a file," you located the file, it was 22 here. 22 just a -- 23 MR. • Okay. 23 MR. : It was empty. 24 MR. : So, you basically, I walk 24 MR. -- it was empty. And is 25 through the building, I know the protocol, 25 that abnormal? 211 212 1 MR. : No. It is not normal. 1 MR. And where is that file 2 MR. . Oh, it's not normal? 2 located? 3 MR. It's not normal. No. 3 MR. : It's supposed to be located 4 MR. . And do you think that 4 in the OIC, ri ht there -- 5 somebody removed things from it? 5 MR. Okay. 6 MR. : No, I'm not going to make 6 MR. -- in the OIC. 7 that accusation. I don't know. I would just 7 MR. When you say "The OIC," 8 say, that's not a normal instances, that being 8 is that the SHU, where the OIC sits? 9 working as a former OIC, being a Correctional 9 MR...(es. 10 Officer, and all of that stuff, that's not 10 MR. : And so, anyone could have 11 normal. 11 had access to that? 12 MR. What stuff is usually in 12 MR. Yes. 13 there? 13 MR. And had you ever seen the 14 MR. : I can tell you, it would be 14 file before that time? 15 his - all of the intake screening stuff that we 15 MR. : I would - no. 16 do on the inmates, the expectations, the cell 16 MR. Did you ever locate it 17 assignment things that the inmate is supposed 17 after that time? 18 to sign, the clothing issue forms. It would be 18 MR. : No. 19 292s in there. It would be a - the SROs. It 19 MR. So, it's likely that 20 would also be the Psychology, where Psychology 20 someone took documents out? If they should have 21 comes to see these guys, that those notes 21 been in there and they're not in there, is that 22 should be laced in there. 22 23 MR. : And none of that was in 23 MR. ..orrect. 24 there? 24 MR. : -- so, someone likely - 25 MR. : None of that was in there. 25 I'm not saying -- EFTA00111882 213 214 1 MR. Yeah. 1 that would have audited those files. 2 MR. : -- who did it, but 2 MR. Okay. 3 someone likel y did? 3 MR. Because they do the SROs. 4 MR. : In my belief, yes, those 4 MR. And did you ask him where 5 documents were taken. 5 the file 6 MR. : And can you think of a 6 MR. Of course. I called him. 7 reason wh the would have been taken? 7 MR. And what did he say? 8 MR. : I don't know, sir. 8 MR. : He didn't know. He had no 9 MR. : All right. But you had 9 knowledge. 10 never seen them before? 10 MR. All right. So, he 11 MR. . No, sir. That was 11 claimed he doesn't know -- 12 MR. And who would be the -. 12 MR. Right. 13 MR. . -- that wouldn't be my 13 MR. -- anything about it. 14 purview to through, to audit those files. 14 MR. Because -. 15 MR. : Who would be -- 15 MR. Did he ever say he looked 16 MR. That's the -. 16 at the file before? 17 MR. -- the person to ask 17 MR. : No. No. I don't remember 18 about that? 18 him saying that. But when I called him that 19 MR. : That would have been the 19 Saturday, because I had conversations with 20 Lieutenant. 20 Lieutenant on that Saturday and that 21 MR. • So, Lieutenant M? 21 Sunday, because he was supposed to come to work 22 MR. Lieutenant IIII. Or the 22 that Sunday. So, once he found out about the 23 Lieutenant 23 situation with Epstein, because I had called 24 MR. Okay. 24 him, and I said, hey, man, where is his inmate 25 MR. -- he would have been the one 25 file? What are you talking about? I said, his 215 216 1 SHU file is not up there. X, Y, Z. So, I 1 training. So, he tells me they're doing the PT 2 informed him of what happened. Sunday, I get a 2 that next day, which was Sunday, he broke his 3 call that he broke his leg. And then, 3 leg. 4 Lieutenant was out for, like, six months. 4 MR. : Did he ever provide any 5 MR. • And did he really break 5 kind of -- 6 his leg? 6 MR. Or he injured his leg. 7 MR. I wouldn't know. 7 MR. : -- did he ever provide 8 MR. . Is there any reason to 8 any documentation? 9 believe, or had you heard that he actually 9 MR. : Hmm-mm. 10 didn't? 10 MR. : No? 11 MR. : Again, he was supposed to be 11 MR. : Hmm. He did provide 12 in that training, like I said, right? That - 12 something, but it was from a doctor. I mean, 13 what do you call it? -- 13 and that was sent through - he provided 14 MR. • I can look it up. 14 documentaiiiiilliii-- 15 MR. -- when you go for reserves 15 MR. : Okay. 16 training 16 MR. I can't - I don't - I'm 17 MR. Oh, yeah. 17 not a doctor - so, I can't tell you what it is, 18 MR. What you do -- 18 and I'm not going to call the doctor to verify 19 MR. • Correct. 19 if that was the situation, but basically, it 20 MR. -- you do it every month. 20 said that he had a substantial leg injury that 21 MR. • Yup. He was in military 21 prevented him from coming to work. 22 22 MR. : So, have you had any 23 MR. ight? 23 conversations with him since? 24 25 MR. MR.W -- training. : Because of his military 24 25 MR. : Oh, he came back - so then, so IIII went out in August - September, EFTA00111883 217 218 1 October, November, December - I think he came 1 And he would talk, and he was saying that he 2 back either December or January. 2 was having difficulties with the staff, and his 3 MR. Of 2019? 3 other peers, because he, you know, the 4 MR. Of 2020. 4 appearance was that he faked the injury, and -- 5 MR. Or 2020. 5 MR. : Oh, so there was rumor -- 6 MR. Of 2020. 6 MR. and not to be a part of 7 MR. Okay. 7 what everybody else was going through, during 8 MR. Somewhere in that timeframe. 8 that Epstein situation. So, he was getting it 9 MR. Okay. 9 from the Lieutenants, and he was also getting 10 MR. : So, he came back. And he 10 it from the line staff. 11 went back u to SHU as the OIC. 11 MR. : Okay. So, on him, is 12 MR. : And ever any 12 there anything that you know - I know he wasn't 13 conversations about this matter? 13 there those days - but if there's anything 14 MR. : I had discussed it with him 14 there that he did wrong? 15 on the phone twice. 15 MR. : Hmm. What - being 16 MR. And tell me about those 16 wrong, I'm not going to say he did something 17 discussions. 17 wrong or purposeful, you know, to say that, you 18 MR. : Those discussion. So, 18 know, to cause the death of inmate Epstein. Of 19 basically, I asked him about the inmate file. 19 course not. I'm not going to say that. 20 I had talked to him about, that Sunday, he 20 MR. Yeah, and I'm not saying 21 alerted me that he was injured. When he came 21 that. I'm just saying -- 22 back, we had discussions that the staff, when 22 MR. : But I'm saying -- 23 he would - me and were -190-I would 23 MR. -- it's, like -. 24 say out of all the Lieutenants - me and IIII, 24 MR. -- this is, in my opinion, ifl 25 we spoke a lot. I thought very highly of him. 25 I'm a third party, if I'm a third party - and 219 220 1 I'm going to be honest - if I'm a third party, 1 that you thinking that, you know, your staff 2 looking at this, somebody would say, I'm wrong. 2 are doing the right thing, and now you finding 3 They would say, you failed to supervise your 3 out that people are fudging documents, and 4 staff. You should have been auditing all of 4 creating documents that - or counting inmates 5 the paperwork. You should have been more 5 that wasn't in the institution. 6 responsive, or you should have been more 6 MR. : Well, in this instance, 7 responsible, and been in the unit more. You 7 it sounds like somebody removed -- 8 should have done more rounds. You should have 8 MR. : And removed -- 9 did more training. You understand what I'm 9 MR. : -- files. 10 saying? 10 MR. : -- for doing all of these 11 MR. : Sure. 11 things that, after the fact, you're, like, I 12 MR. : But guess what? That's not my 12 can't believe this is happening. 13 purview. As the Captain, Security, I did this, 13 MR. : So, if someone removed 14 this, that, and the third. But everybody has a 14 files, though, I'm assuming if they're trying 15 job to do in a rison. 15 to cover something up, it would have happened 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 on, like, the 10th, the 9th or the 10th. 17 MR. : The Officers have a job, to 17 MR. : It would have b been -- 18 count, maintain accountability, for the inmate 18 MR. Correct? 19 population. The Lieutenants all oversee the 19 MR. -- the 10th, as soon as they 20 staff, and make sure they're doing their jobs 20 found outlining,away. 21 right. And then, ultimately, me as the 21 MR. : And well, did a lot of 22 Captain, over the Lieutenants, I have to 22 people have access to that room, at that time? 23 reassure that they're doing their jobs right. 23 MR. : It was - at that time - it 24 But when you go back and you start going 24 would have been - and it's not a room. You're 25 through fine tooth combingthrough documents 25 talking about for -- EFTA00111884 221 222 1 MR. : Wherever these -- 1 MR. : Right. All right. 2 MR. : -- Epstein? 2 MR. Aside from video. 3 MR. : -- wherever this file was 3 MR. : So, the office. Bird cage. 4 located. 4 Office. I'm trying to figure out which one is 5 MR. That file. It's, like -- 5 the entrance into the unit. 6 MR. : (Indiscernible 6 MR. : Speaking of entrance into 7 *01:08:42iiiiii 7 the Unit, my understanding is that there are 8 MR. : -- when you come into the 8 two ways - two doors that you've got to go 9 unit, you walk into the unit. 9 through. One is the Control -- 10 MR. All right. This is a 10 MR. Yeah. 11 good transition. 11 MR. : -- accesses, and then, 12 MR. All right. 12 the interior is what the SHU staff -- 13 MR. I believe that this is a 13 MR. Yes. 14 map of the SHU. 14 MR. : -- and how do they open 15 MR. Right. 15 it from the SHU staff? Is it -- 16 MR. Can you tell me what 16 MR. : By a key. 17 we're looking at here? Where are the staff 17 MR. -- by a key? 18 located, and where would this file be? And 18 MR. By a key. 19 then, where would Epstein's cell be, if you 19 MR. And what is the key 20 know? My understanding is that his cell was the 20 called? Is it a gate key? 21 closest to them, and approximately 15 feet 21 MR. . It's a prison key. 22 away. 22 MR. : Oh, just a prison key. 23 MR. ..hit. 23 It's not 2_1pLial name? 24 MR. : But that's without ever 24 MR. 'I'll': Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. 25 putting eyes on it. 25 *01:09:52). 223 224 1 MR. Excuse me? 1 L. Then you've got I. So, he was on L-tier, 2 MR. : It's a Folger Adams key. 2 right? 3 MR. • Okay. 3 MR. Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : It's a prison key. 4 MR. : So, L-tier, it wouldn't be 5 MR. But it's not, like, a 5 like this. And then, you would have had the 6 special name that you call it in the SHU? 6 Officer Station, which, this would have been 7 MR. : No. It's the OIA number 7 the Officer Station. And that's going to the 8 one's keys. 8 Officer Station. There would have been a file 9 MR. Okay. But so, they 9 cabinet because the desks go around like so. 10 physically have to open the - in order to get 10 MR. : Have you ever seen the video 11 anyone in or out of the SHU - they physically 11 of the SHU? Where the Officer Station is. 12 have to o en the -- 12 MR. : You're talking about when the 13 MR. : After they open it. 13 staff -- 14 MR. • -- and there's only one 14 MR. : The camera. The camera. 15 way in and out? 15 MR. : -- so, that camera is by the 16 MR. : Right. 16 27 door, I believe. And that shines from where 17 MR. Okay. 17 the entrance of ZB, of -- 18 MR. : No, but I mean, yeah. Yes. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 Precisely. I'm trying to figure out - even 19 MR. : -- that shines down like 20 this is orientation of me looking at this - is 20 that. 21 I'm trying to figure out because I know this is 21 MR. : Is that -- 22 - this is the floor. 22 MR. : And then, L-tier is right 23 MR. : I'm assuming there's a -- 23 here. 24 MR. : There's your stairs. So, I'm 24 MR. : -- yeah. Is that pointed 25 trying to figure out, this is L. Yeah, that's 25 right behind the desk, to the left of the desk? EFTA00111885 225 226 1 MR. : Yeah. 1 MR. He was in a different 2 MR. : Okay. That's what you 2 cell than assigned? 3 pointed at? 3 MR. You didn't know that? 4 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. . No. Well, tell me about 5 MR. : Okay. 5 this. So, where -? So, is this the first time 6 MR. : So, that's what I was showing 6 that he was ever not in the right cell? 7 you. So, that camera - in essence - that 7 MR. : He was not in the right cell, 8 camera would be right there. 8 sir. After we went back and we started looking 9 MR. : So, it would be clearly 9 at the Sentry paperwork and all that stuff, 10 showing that file cabinet, if we reviewed that 10 that inmate was not in the right cell for six 11 camera? 11 days. So that mean -- 12 MR. : Yup. 12 MR. • For six days, he was in 13 MR. : Okay. 13 the wrong -- 14 MR. : So, that file cabinet sat 14 MR. : -- so, basically, he was 15 right behind the desk. So, hopefully that's 15 assigned to this cell, he died in this cell. 16 better orientation. And then, the cell, I 16 MR. : But for six days, he was 17 think is L-tier, that Jeffrey Epstein was 17 going to the wrong cell? So, it wasn't, like, 18 assigned to was 16. 18 just the one day he was found dead? 19 MR. : When you say "assigned to 19 MR. : Right. So, they had him 20 20 quartered over here, but it was inmates already 21 MR. Or something like that. 21 over there. And then, you understand what I'm 22 MR. : -- it sounds like, was he 22 saying? But he was found in this cell. 23 not in that cell? 23 MR. I don't understand when 24 MR. : He wasn't in the right cell. 24 you say -- 25 He was not there. 25 MR. : Wait. Let's point to the 227 228 1 cell. Because I just want to get an idea. 1 MR. : They may have moved the 2 MR. : But I think it's L-. I think 2 inmates, but they weren't changing the PP-34 3 he was found on L-tier. Right? Do you know 3 transaction in Sentry. 4 that? 4 MR. All right. So, what -. 5 MR. : That's my understanding. 5 MR. ro, the inmates were moved, 6 MR. reah. That's my 6 right? Physically, but the Sentry paperwork 7 understanding. too. 7 would never be done. 8 MR. • -- is L-tier. 8 MR. : So, he was supposed to be 9 MR. : L-tier. 9 moved, they just didn't follow with what their 10 MR. • Again, I don't know the 10 necessaryliiiiiwork? 11 layout. There's got to be somewhere where it 11 MR. : No. He was in this cell. 12 says it on this. 12 They must have moved him in Sentry. They must 13 MR. : I think it -. 13 have moved him, right? But he - when the Sentry 14 MR. : Because that's G. Yeah. 14 assignment came up - it showed that he was 15 That, it should be J and L. So, when you come 15 still remained assigned to that cell, instead 16 up the steps, I think this was supposed to be - 16 of him bein h sically found in this cell. 17 that's his assignment, this cell over here, but 17 MR. : But what I'm saying is, 18 he was found in one of these cells over here. 18 like, it sounds, like, they were supposed to 19 MR. : Now, do you know why? Did 19 move him, they just never did the paperwork to 20 you ask tiiiiiiestion? 20 say that he was moved? 21 MR. : Because what they were doing 21 MR. ..orrect. 22 consistently is, is that when we do cell 22 MR. : Okay. So, it's not, 23 rotations, which is supposed to be done between 23 like, I mean, I guess they technically put him 24 every 30 1.. ay? 24 in the wrong cell because he wasn't technically 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 assigned to that, but the move was supposed to EFTA00111886 229 230 1 happen, they just didn't follow with the 1 MR. : Who was responsible? 2 administrative part of it. 2 MR. : But you know what? That 3 MR. : Right. 3 happens all the time, sir. Because I will tell 4 MR. : Okay. So -- 4 you, I could clean out SHU. I've done it. And 5 MR. : So, you -. 5 they could say, I've went up there physically, 6 MR. : -- so, aside from the 6 supervisors going in there, cleaning out the 7 administrative failure, is there any other 7 SHU. I think I did it three or four times. 8 suspicion about the fact that he wasn't in the 8 Well, and then, less than a week, I could go do 9 assigned cell? 9 rounds, and inmates got all the stuff back. 10 MR. : It was, and also, the 10 MR. : Who was responsible for 11 suspicion was, why did he have so much linen? 11 giving it to them? 12 And so many t-shirts, and so many blankets. 12 MR. : The staff because staff have 13 No. We're taught you get one blanket, maybe 13 the keys. 14 two. 14 MR. And they just say, you 15 MR. And what -. 15 need more here you go? 16 MR. : You get one, two, until you 16 MR. 1.1ere you go. 17 get two t-shirts, two boxers, two pairs of 17 MR. : Well, would the staff do 18 socks. 18 it, or would the Lieutenant do it, or -? 19 MR. Was that question asked? 19 MR. : I don't think Lieutenants 20 I mean, did you ask, like, IIII, or any of the 20 would do it. 21 SHU staff since then? 21 MR. • So, the -- 22 MR. : Of course. 22 MR. It's more of a staff. 23 MR. : And what did they say? 23 MR. • -- okay. 24 MR. : I mean, they're going to be, 24 MR. : Because they don't want to 25 like, I don't - how would I know? 25 hear an inmate crying. 231 232 1 MR. Now, is -. 1 saying people that had access to this room, was 2 MR. : Kicking on the door. 2 it just a flood of people at that point, coming 3 MR. : Is having those extra 3 out? 4 linens, and those extra, you know, boxers or 4 MR. : Anybody that - the people who 5 whatever, is that a security issue? 5 would be most would know about those files 6 MR. Yes. 6 would be the SHU staff. 7 MR. • And why is that a 7 MR. • The SHU staff. 8 security issue? 8 MR. And the Lieutenants. 9 MR. : Because ultimately, that 9 MR. Okay. 10 gives the inmates the materials to be able to 10 MR. Of course. 11 make homemade fashioned and improvised nooses. 11 MR. And what would be in 12 MR. : Okay. 12 those files that possibly people wouldn't want 13 MR. air they'll build a TT, and 13 people to see? 14 use it as escape paraphernalia, just like they 14 MR. : I mean, the only thing, I 15 did in Chicago. Tie that stuff together, they 15 mean, that would be in there, like I said, 16 broke out the window, and the inmate had a 16 292s, because you're supposed to do them every 17 rope. That's why we don't give inmates excess 17 day. 18 clothing. 18 MR. : And what are 292s? 19 MR. : Okay. Now, as far as 19 MR...92s basically are, it shows 20 this file, though, you never found out where 20 the inmates activities in the unit, daily. It 21 those -- 21 talks about if the inmate - any time the inmate 22 MR. : No. 22 is out of the SHU time, out of cell time, it's 23 MR. : -- documents went? 23 annotated on the 292. When the inmate showers, 24 MR. : I couldn't find them. 24 when the inmate exercises, when the inmate 25 MR. : Okay. And when we were 25 eats. Every meal. EFTA00111887 233 234 1 MR. Now, in your opinion, 1 MR. And who would be updating 2 would it be -- 2 the files? Just anybody in SHU? 3 MR. For a 24-hour period. 3 MR. : That would be the OIC. Every 4 MR. -- would these documents 4 Sunday. You're printing out all the 292s, then 5 be missing because they were potentially 5 you put them in the file. 6 falsified, or because they might show something 6 MR. : So, on Sundays. Is it 7 about the death of Epstein? 7 one person that typically -? 8 MR. : It would show if he wasn't 8 MR. : The OICs. Normally, the OIC 9 taking meals. And they didn't report it. It 9 on morning watch would do that. They would 10 would show if the inmate wasn't afforded any 10 print out all of the 292s, and they would put 11 outside recreation time. Or any out of cell 11 them all in each file. 12 time. But we know he wasn't getting that 12 MR. : Do you know, at this 13 because he was oing to Attorney conference. 13 time, around the August 9th and August 10th, 14 MR. : Okay. 14 who would have been responsible for those 15 MR. : But those forms, no, they 15 files, and printing those out, and putting them 16 wouldn't show that the inmate, you know, all of 16 in? 17 that stuff is just administrative stuff that we 17 MR. : That would have been either 18 track for ever 18 the - that would have probably been the SHU 19 MR. : That's why I'm just 19 staff - it would have been either, it would 20 trying to figure out what would be the purpose 20 probably be Tova Noel. 21 of taking those files? 21 MR. : Noel would have been? 22 MR. : Is there a possibility the 22 MR. she was assigned as 23 file was never updated? 23 the - that would have been one of the 24 MR. : I don't believe that. 24 responsibilities of the SHU One. But that 25 MR. : Okay. 25 would have been on Sunday. 235 236 1 MR. Yeah. Sunday. That's 1 to psychology, and the copy is supposed to go 2 what I'm saying. Do you know, up until this 2 back to Correctional Services, to put in his 3 point, though? Like, so, if the file is gone, 3 file, to be maintained that, yeah, he was on 4 he's now there for, what? Almost two months. 4 suicide watch. This would happen. You know, 5 MR. M(Indiscernible *01:19:43). 5 you tell the story. So, yeah. Yeah. It would 6 MR. : Would it be one person 6 - all of that information would be in there. 7 responsible or -- 7 MR. : No. But I'm just asking, is 8 MR. Right. 8 it possible it went to psych observation or 9 MR. • -- whoever is there on 9 wherever that unit is, and never made it back? 10 Sunday? 10 MR. . It's a possibility. 11 MR. : She wouldn't have known. So, 11 MR. : But then, he's made there 12 I mean, she wouldn't have - that's something, 12 since - but it should - like you were saying - 13 unless you're the full-time SHU OIC, that you 13 it should have been constantly updated. So, 14 would be co nizant of. 14 from July 30th through August 9th or 10th, 15 MR. : Okay. 15 there should still be extra stuff in there. 16 MR. She wouldn't know that. 16 Correct? 17 MR. So, there's that. 17 MR. Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Question for you. If he was 18 MR. Okay. 19 put on suicide watch, or psych observation, 19 MR. All right. So, let's 20 would that file be moved with him? 20 keep going here. " expressed to 21 MR. : When the inmate goes on 21 that the staff admitted to her they did not 22 suicide watch, they create another 292 because 22 complete rounds, the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 23 he's not in the unit. So, that 292 goes down 23 counts." And that, so, and that's all they 24 with - and is put on the door. Right? So, that 24 admitted to, was those two? Not the ones prior 25 copy of that 292, yeah, that's supposed to go 25 to that? EFTA00111888 237 238 1 MR. : Right. So, when I talked to 1 by the time he comes down the tier, and he 2 on the phone, that's what he told me on 2 comes through - so, that means he didn't do a 3 the phone. 3 round, because he would have saw him. Right? 4 MR. Okay. 4 So, that means he's going around, because 5 MR. : He said, hey, Cap, the staff 5 that's how feed, as soon as we come on, we 6 told me the didn't do the rounds. 6 don't go this way. We go this way. So, that 7 MR. • All right. 7 cell that Epstein was found in, I think it's, 8 MR. : And I said, okay. 8 like, the second from the in. And so, it's, 9 MR. And that, "Officer Thomas 9 like, the last cell, and then he was in that 10 entered Epstein's cell without supervision." 10 next cell. Right? So, they come around the 11 Now, what does that mean? 11 whole area, and when he get to his cell, you 12 MR. : That means that any time - 12 observe the inmate unresponsive. So, what 13 especially in the Special Housing Unit - any 13 you're supposed to do is, you call Control. 14 time that cell, it should have been - 14 Control, hey, I've got an unresponsive inmate. 15 especially after hours - a Supervisor should 15 Send staff to SHU. Or I've got an unresponsive 16 have beeniiiiiiiiii 16 inmate, please state the medical emergency, 17 MR. : When he went in to do the 17 send someone to SHU. to Ops, hey, I 18 life-savin measures, right? 18 need you come to the Special Housing Unit. 19 MR. : Yup. 19 Boom. You come up there. You've got a staff 20 MR. : Now, do you know if - was 20 because you don't know if it's a rouse. You 21 Thomas and Noel, were they together, and he 21 just popped down the door and just go in there. 22 walked ins_gf_as she, like, down the range? 22 You're puiiiiiiiiiiself in jeopardy. 23 MR. IIIIII: I believe she was on the 23 MR. : Now, does this create 24 down, she was off the tier, and he probably 24 suspicion for you, the fact that he went in 25 went to go do - doing the breakfast carts, and 25 there by himself? 239 240 1 MR. : I've seen a lot of stuff at 1 reported. 2 MCC, as far as with security protocols. I've 2 MR. Okay. It says, "Epstein 3 written staff up for violation of security 3 was placed on the floor to administer life- 4 protocols. That instance right there, what he 4 saving efforts," and that's why I asked, I 5 did, wouldn't be uncommon. 5 didn't know if he was still hanging -- 6 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : I don't know. 7 MR. : Because you try to tell 7 MR. • -- he took them off. All 8 people how to react in an emergency situation, 8 ri ht. " informed Associate Warden 9 and guess what? Everybody is not going to say 9 about what Officers Noel and 10 how they're going to react. But we do tell 10 Thomas admitted to IIII. had concerns 11 them, if you're in the Special Housing Unit, 11 about the whereabouts of Epstein's cell mate. 12 you need to wait until a Supervisor comes on 12 Some of his staff were under the impression 13 the scene before ou pop a door in SHU. 13 that Reyes was released from the SHU, which 14 MR. • Now, do you know how -- 14 later confirmed was not true." Was not 15 MR. Period. 15 true or was true? You confirmed that -? 16 MR. • -- he was found? Was he 16 MR. : He wasn't released from SHU. 17 hanging? -- 17 He wasn't released from SHU. 18 MR. : I don't know how he was 18 MR. He was released? 19 found. 19 MR. He was released from court. 20 MR. -- was he on the floor? 20 MR. Oh, okay. 21 No? 21 MR. He wasn't released from the 22 MR. : Don't know. I didn't read 22 institution. Usually, it's from court. 23 the autops re ort. I don't know. 23 MR. : Oh, okay. So, what 24 MR. : Okay. 24 they're trying to say here is that you guys 25 MR. : I only know what the news had 25 didn't release him. He went to court, and they EFTA00111889 241 242 1 released him, he never -- 1 say, oh, I don't have access to TRUSCOPE, but 2 MR. : That's right. 2 however, they are given hard copies of the 3 MR. • -- he never came back. 3 count slip, which continues for the 24-hour 4 MR. : He never came back. 4 period. 5 MR. : Okay. But he was 5 MR. Right. Yeah. 6 released from custody? 6 MR. : So, you're continuing to do 7 MR. : Yes. He was released in 7 your rounds. And then, at the end of the 8 custody when he went to court -- 8 rounds, at the end of the week, this is how 9 MR. : Gotcha. 9 it's supposed to happen. Because I actually 10 MR. : -- that day. 10 put this in place, because that was one of the 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 11 vitals that we had during our program review, 12 worded weird. "The purpose of the 3:00 and the 12 which we got a hit on. At the end of the week, 13 5:00 a.m. count is to physically count and 13 the Lieutenant is supposed to get them, and he 14 confirm each person is in their cell. There 14 will audit them, to make every sure all of your 15 were no entries of counts in TRUSCOPE the 15 rounds was conducted in the 40-minutes 16 entire night. If technology is down, the 16 irregular. If it's not, that staff member is 17 Correctional Officers also have the option to 17 identified, and then, they're given counseling. 18 document the count on a hard copy form. 18 So, we're trying to stop staff, you know, we 19 Although there are no electronic records of 19 try to encourage staff to do the right thing, 20 counts, hard copies must have been retained." 20 but if they're not, we're trying to catch it on 21 MR. That is correct. 21 our level, before it gets reported out. So, 22 MR. : Is it odd that they 22 even then, you know, the Lieutenants there was 23 didn't enter it into the TRUSCOPE that night? 23 sign put up there that it wasn't getting done 24 MR. : No, it's not odd. Because I 24 on a regular basis. 25 told you, on occasion, the staff member would 25 MR. Mm-hmm. 243 244 1 MR. : When I input, when I - and 1 a monitored logbook. In the SHU, Correctional 2 then, I have to counsel them, where is my stuff 2 Officers are not permitted to give inmate phone 3 weekly? So, I've counseled them. I've got 3 calls, but a Unit Task Team member, or the 4 counseliniiiiiiiiiiat. 4 Chaplin can take the inmate to the Lieutenant's 5 MR. : Did you ever counsel 5 Office and make a call. is not briefed 6 either Thomas or Noel? 6 on phone calls in the SHU generally." But in 7 MR. : No. I don't know if I have a 7 this case, you said that you did advise 8 counselin on them. 8 that he could. And where did the call take 9 MR. : Okay. 9 place? 10 MR. : No, but before this incident, 10 MR. : Well, because I know between 11 but no. 11 that timeilli ikillinstalled a jack. 12 MR. : It says, "All inmate 12 MR. : Okay. 13 phone calls in the SHU are monitored, and 13 MR. rn SHU, in order to do the 14 inmates have limited access to "walls. 14 outgoing calls. So, they could actually do 15 All calls should be recorded. was not 15 those calls in SHU. Though, before the 16 aware of any issues or complaints with Epstein, 16 Chaplin, of course. So, if you had a SHU 17 related to hone calls. On Saturday, August 17 inmate, he didn't have to bring the inmate all 18 10, 2019, was told that Epstein made a 18 the way down to the Lieutenant's Office to do a 19 phone call at approximately 7:00 p.m. on the 19 call. 20 evening of Friday, August 9, 2019. It is 20 MR. Okay. 21 uncommon to make an unrecorded phone call in 21 MR. So, there was a jack up there 22 the SHU, and would advise against it 22 in the - I can't remember where it is. I'm 23 because calls should be surveilled. Inmates 23 sorry. 24 can make a recorded phone call in the 24 MR. It's near the shower 25 Lieutenant's Office, where it is documented in 25 room? EFTA00111890 245 246 1 MR. : Yeah. Something like that. 1 would be the Institutional - or 14s - would be 2 But so, we actually had the ability to have 2 the Institutional Duty Officer. Right? So, 3 that outgoing call capability for those inmates 3 that means they go around, and they check all 4 in SHU. Because you can't bring them down to 4 of the institutional - that they're taking 5 the Lieutenant's Office. 5 calls after hours, from Correctional Services. 6 MR. : Okay. 6 They're reporting certain stuff to the Region. 7 MR. ro, you could do an outgoing 7 They're doing rounds in SHU. They're doing 8 call capaiiiiiiiiiithe SHU. 8 rounds throughout the institution, in all the 9 MR. : Okay. And so, you did 9 areas of the institution, and the accumulated 10 approve that call, and then, just log it? 10 report, which is given to the Warden for their 11 MR. : Yes. 11 review, about the daily operations of the 12 MR. : Okay. And take care of 12 institution during that week. Also, a part of 13 all that? 13 that is SHU rounds. You know, they make sure 14 MR. : Yes I did. And that was 14 that SHU rounds, everybody that's supposed to 15 something that Mr. said, and Mr. 15 do rounds within a week, you have to do them, 16 was, actually, I believe he was the 16 or you get notified, and then you notify that 17 IDO. 17 Thursday or Friday, and you're supposed to go 18 MR. : And again, what is the 18 do your rounds. By the close out. You only 19 IDO? 19 have to do it there once a week. So, that's 20 MR. The Institutional Duty 20 just part of the duties. But they bring the 21 Officer. 21 report, they create a report of the total 22 MR. : And what does that mean? 22 operations. Any incidents that occurred. The 23 MR. : That means is that every 23 counts in SHU, if they was bad. Anything that 24 week, for a seven-day period, normally, people 24 was going on in Food Service, or if they 25 with a grades of just 12 and above, 12, 13s, 25 observed certain instances during the - in 247 248 1 general population that should be addressed by 1 this within the time that I got to the 2 the Unit Team or Correctional Services, and 2 institution, I pulled up TRUSCOPE, and I can 3 stuff like that. And so, that's what they do. 3 actually go in, and I get to see where they're 4 MR. : Okay. And then, this 4 logging in and doing rounds because once I pull 5 concludes, " wholeheartedly emphasized 5 up those reports, because the two I verify off 6 that he and his staff at MCC did their best to 6 of, I pull those reports up, I can show where 7 supervise, safeguard, and ensure the protection 7 the computer terminals are. And all of her 8 of Epstein and all inmates effectively. His 8 rounds was done from the Lieutenant's Office. 9 staff is aware of the seriousness of the 9 MR. Okay. I thought - so -- 10 investigation into Epstein's death." 10 MR. Because you 11 MR. 11Right. 11 MR. - aside from 12 MR. : Now, as far as what I 12 the bad count, where she should have went - she 13 just read you, I know it was over the course of 13 should have, even with the bad count, she 14 two hours, but - I mean, four hours - but is 14 should have been there, observing an actual 15 there anything else you told the FBI or the OIG 15 count? 16 that wasn't included in this report? 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. In the SHU? 18 MR. And what was that 18 MR. Yeah. 19 regarding? 19 MR. And what count? 20 MR. : I talked about that, when I, 20 MR. : No. No, no, no. What she 21 it was brief in there, but I talked about 21 should have done is then done rounds. 22 Lieutenant actions. Talked about 22 MR. r: Oh. 23 that, one) she didn't do physical rounds in the 23 MR. : In the SHU that night. So, 24 unit because, as I said, I went into TRUSCOPE, 24 between 10:00 and 6:00, she should have done a 25 because I wanted to know, because I did all 25 round in SHU. Well, any time after 12:00 a.m. EFTA00111891 249 250 1 to 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. 1 (Indiscernible *01:32:56). 2 There was no rounds. All of the rounds were 2 MR. : -- and she never - she 3 done from the Lieutenant's Office. 3 was supposed to go to the Control Center, and 4 MR. : Well, if she did - I 4 actually do the counts from there, right? 5 think we do believe that she did conduct a 5 MR. : Well, you're supposed to take 6 round at 4:00 a.m. 6 - yeah - one of the counts. So, normally, we 7 MR. : Okay. 7 would take the 3:45 count or the 5:00. Either 8 MR. So, she actually 8 one. You could take one of the counts. It 9 physicall went into the SHU at 4:00 a.m. -- 9 don't matter which one you take. You've just 10 MR. : Okay. 10 got to take one. The 12:00, the 3:00, or the 11 MR. -- and spoke with them. 11 5:00. Right? You've got to take a count. 12 And then, potentially even came back, and 12 You've got to go through, go do a round in SHU. 13 checked in a little while later. 13 A round in SHU. So, you have to go, actually, 14 UNKNOWN MALE: Dude, it's been a while. I 14 go physically to the unit. And then, you're 15 got a little bus . 15 supposed to do rounds throughout the entire 16 MR. : Thank you, sir. And so, 16 institution. So, if I'm at the Lieutenant's 17 if she did that one time, at the 4:00 a.m., 17 desk, and I say that all my rounds was done 18 possibly another check-in ten or 15 minutes 18 from this one terminal, because you're actually 19 later, would that be sufficed for whatever her 19 supposed to go in, I provide it in card 20 duty and responsibility was? 20 readers. 21 MR. : Well, that means, if you sat 21 MR. : So, they're supposed to - 22 there and you did all your rounds, so, I did 22 when they do a round there - so, they're 23 all of my rounds at the computer office. 23 supposed to lo it in from the unit? 24 MR. And never went -- 24 MR. : From that terminal. 25 MR. : In the computer 25 MR. : Okay. 251 252 1 MR. : So, that means they can go on 1 by door, just like I explained to you before. 2 a floor, and they don't have to go log into 2 You're supposed to go in the unit, go on the 3 both computers on the floor, as long as you log 3 tier, and you're supposed to walk and look at 4 into one on the floor, you're good. That's the 4 every cell. 5 policy. 5 MR. : And what'd he saying, he 6 MR. : And is that just to show 6 just - to clarify - he wants to make sure it's 7 that they are physically there, and they're not 7 the Lieutenants that are also supposed to do 8 8 that. 9 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR...es. 10 MR. • -- falsifying the rounds? 10 MR. : Not just the staff. And 11 MR. There is. 11 is that - and again, for clarification, I 12 MR. : Okay. 12 apologize, but it's so much, we've got to 13 MR. : So, you just can't just sit 13 dissect, you know, we're going to have to 14 at the desk aLid say, I did all the rounds. 14 digest what you told us, and listen to it again 15 MR. 'I'll': I'm going to investigate the 15 - but is it every shift, a Lieutenant should do 16 (Indiscernible *01:34:05) of what the 16 that? 17 Lieutenant rounds entails. 17 MR. : Yes. Every shift, in the 24- 18 MR. : You can ask again, if you 18 hour period, rounds have to be conducted by a 19 want. Co ahead. (Indiscernible *01:34:09). 19 Lieutenant. In SHU. 20 MR. : I don't remember if you did. 20 MR. : And so, if Lieutenants 21 I apologize if you answered it already. When a 21 are telling us that they don't think that 22 Lieutenant has to do a round in a - let's say 22 that's part of their duties, they're supposed 23 any tier - and let's say the SHU, what does 23 to do just rounds -- 24 that entail? What (Indiscernible *01:34:19)? 24 MR. : They're wrong. 25 MR. : They're supposed to go door 25 MR. . -- of staff, and is that EFTA00111892 253 254 1 policy that sa s -- 1 roster, on both August 9th and August 10th - 2 MR. : Yeah. 2 which Lieutenant should have conducted rounds? 3 MR. : -- that they need to do 3 MR. : Okay. So, on -- 4 that? 4 MR. With the inmates. 5 MR. Mileah. 5 MR. • -- on August 9th, 6 MR. : So, and if they're 6 shoul d have done a round in SHU. 7 telling us that, are they lying to us, or are 7 MR. . But what, approximately 8 they just -? 8 what time? 9 MR. : I think just think they're 9 MR. : It's going to be from 1000 10 unaware or confused. 10 hours, onl 2200 hours, to 06. 11 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. So, the day before - - 12 MR. M. really do. If it says that 12 MR. Right. 13 a Lieutenant will perform a round in the 13 MR. -- for August 8th -- 14 Special Housin Um t, once on their shift. 14 MR. So, that means -- 15 MR. : And then, and that means 15 MR. -- 2200. 16 an actual, not a round to check in with the 16 MR. -- she would have done 17 staff, but a round -- 17 anything after 12:00. 18 MR. : No. That's a -- 18 MR. r Okay. 19 MR. -- to actually looking at 19 MR. : or Durant would have 20 the -? 20 done them. So, I don't know who would have 21 MR. -- round to walk around the 21 done them on that day, and especially since we 22 unit. 22 didn't have a SHU Lieutenant, they should have 23 MR. So, in this matter, when 23 done a round in SHU. 24 you're looking at these 4:00, 10:00 p.m., 12:00 24 MR. Okay. 25 a.m., 3:00, and 5:00, which - on our duty 25 MR. : Because just like we had the 255 256 1 PC unit, that was on the third floor -- 1 the rounds? It could have been any round, 2 MR. : Okay. 2 because rounds are 30, it would be 30-minutes 3 MR. : -- you was responsible for 3 or so -- 4 doing a round in the PC unit. 4 MR. Right. 5 MR. : And are you aware if 5 MR. : -- are you talking about 6 or Durant, they were there? Do you know 6 one of the main counts? 7 if either of them are aware that they needed to 7 MR. : So, just like a Correctional 8 do rounds of inmates in the SHU? 8 Supervisor, a Lieutenant, is supposed to make a 9 MR. : Yeah, they knew. 9 round in SHU. 10 MR. Okay. 10 MR. : I know, but what - I just 11 MR. Either one of them would have 11 want to make sure we're clarifying the 12 done it. 12 difference between the 30-minute round and the 13 MR. Okay. 13 - because you said they should have conducted 14 MR. : So, I would say, normally, 14 one of the 4:00, 10:00, 12:00 -- 15 when I was the Operations Lieutenant, I would 15 MR. .That's a count. 16 have sent the Activity, hey, go to SHU, go 16 MR. : -- that's a count? So, 17 knock out the round. 17 are they supposed to conduct a count, or just 18 MR. : So, Durant, probably, 18 one of thiliiiilar 30-minute rounds? 19 would have been the one there? 19 MR. : No. On every shift, within a 20 MR. : And then, for ,I 20 24-hour period, a Lieutenant is supposed to 21 would have sent up there. 21 make a round in SHU. 22 MR. All right. So, 22 MR. : A round. So, not -- 23 or should have done a round. Okay. And 23 MR. M. Lieutenant. That's why I 24 it doesn't have to be - so, when you're saying 24 would say a Lieutenant. 25 a round, are you talking about the counts or 25 MR. Yup. EFTA00111893 257 258 1 MR. : It specifies to a - because I 1 MR. : And when she made that round, 2 can't say the Operations, the Activities, the 2 she just sees the person, she doesn't have to 3 Admin. No. A Lieutenant. So, that's why we 3 talk to them? 4 get by on day watch because you have the 4 MR. : You walk around, and if it's 5 assigned Lieutenant in the unit, that's going 5 at night, you're going to take and shine your 6 to make the said round. 6 light in there, because you're not doing a 7 MR. : Okay. And so, when -- 7 count. So, as Correctional Officers, you know, 8 MR. : Or day watch. 8 over the years, you're taught to look at 9 MR. -- so, when went 9 certain things in a cell. When I shine that 10 to - at 4:00 - to the SHU, she should have 10 light in there, I'm shining, I make sure, 11 conducted a round of the inmate -- 11 because normally inmates will move their foot 12 MR. : Of the entire Unit. 12 or move their leg, or arm, or leg, so I would 13 MR. -- not just checked in 13 count flesh when I see flesh. I could check 14 with the staff? 14 the windows real quick, or if they got stuff in 15 MR. : No. She should have made a 15 hanging, that's restricting my view, I could 16 round. 16 correct it at that time, hey, take that down, 17 MR. : Okay. And then, that's 17 hey you, so and so, get up, take the covering 18 what I wanted to clarify a round versus count. 18 down. That's doing an effective round. And 19 Because that could have happened any time in 19 you do that for every cell in the block. 20 between - you know, for these people - any time 20 MR. : What about when the SHU 21 in between any of the counts, at any time they 21 Lieutenant is on duty, is he the one 22 could have showed up and said, let's do a 22 that's doiiiiiie rounds? 23 round. 23 MR. : Yeah. No. No, no. Officers 24 MR. Ed-hmm. 24 are doing the rounds. So, when he does his 25 MR. : Real quick. Okay. 25 rounds, it's normally with a status report. 259 260 1 You understand? 1 MR. ..orrect. 2 MR. So, not only -- 2 MR. : Okay. And then, 3 MR. : So, he'll do -- 3 obviously, he's only there in the day, right? 4 MR. -- is he doing it, but 4 He's not there at night? 5 also one of the Activities or Ops Lieutenant is 5 MR. Right. 6 also one? 6 MR. : So, whoever the Ops 7 MR. 'I'll': No. If is in there, 7 Lieutenant is at night, always needs to go do 8 he's the one to do that round. 8 it. 9 MR. And then -. 9 MR. : Got to do go a round. Yup. 10 MR. : He's going to do the round, 10 Yeah. 11 because he's in the Unit all day. 11 MR. And that's what you meant 12 MR. Right. And he's actually 12 when you said didn't conduct a 13 physicalliiiiiihe Unit, when he's there? 13 round, you're talking about, she didn't 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. That's his 14 actually do the inmate round? 15 place of dot ,. 15 MR. : Right, because then, she 16 MR. : All right. So then, the, 16 probably would have probably seen the inmate in 17 you know, the Ops or the Activities 17 distress, or -- 18 Lieutenants, they don't need to then go to the 18 MR. Right. 19 SHU -- 19 MR. -- something like that. 20 MR. No. 20 MR. And do you know anything 21 MR. : -- and do rounds on that 21 about when Epstein actually died versus when he 22 day? 22 was found? 23 MR. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : It's only when he's not 24 MR. : Okay. 25 there? 25 MR. : I heard it was hours before. EFTA00111894 261 262 1 MR. : Okay. Where the SHU 1 MR. : Okay. And they're always 2 staff are located in the map that you just drew 2 open? 3 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : There's nothing that 5 MR. • -- could they see into 5 covers them, or -? 6 Epstein's cell from there? 6 MR. : We do have the ability to 7 MR. : No. But you could see, like, 7 close, like, when we have an incident on the 8 if the lights was on, you know, so, if I'm 8 tier, we have an unresponsive inmate, or 9 standing down by the Officer's Station, I could 9 MR. : Yup. 10 look up on the tier, and I could look down, and 10 MR. : we were giving medical, 11 if the lights are on, I could definitely see if 11 you know, if we're doing anything that deals 12 the light was on in the cell or not. 12 with the inmate specifically, we'll block those 13 MR. : About how big are the 13 other observation windows off, so the inmates 14 windows of the doors? 14 can't see. 15 MR. : I would say they are probably 15 MR. : Now, when the staff are 16 like this. 16 doing an overnight, the early morning watch, 17 MR. : About that? Okay. So -- 17 from zero, from 12:00 a.m. and through 8:00 18 MR. : But -- 18 a.m., are the allowed to sleep? 19 MR. • -- about, like -- 19 MR. : No. You can't sleep. 20 MR. -- and then -. 20 MR. : So, if the SHU, if 21 MR. • -- 24 inches by, like, 21 they're in the SHU, can one sleep while the 22 ten inches? 22 other sta s awake? 23 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Or something. 24 MR. : So, no one is allowed to 25 MR. : Something like that. 25 sleep? 263 264 1 MR. M No. 1 rounds. I would just stay walking in the unit. 2 MR. : Have you heard that they 2 You know? It's nothing wrong to get on the 3 were slee in on this shift? 3 internet. But between that time you're on the 4 MR. : I heard that, and what camera 4 internet, you need to shut it off, and go do 5 footage I saw, I could physically observe them 5 rounds. If that's the way you stay awake at 6 sleeping. 6 night, or do your OIC duties. Audit the - what 7 MR. So, did you see them both 7 they're told to do - audit the bed book. Audit 8 sleeping? 8 the - make sure all the 292s is done for the 9 MR. Yeah. 9 previous shift. You know, do all the stuff 10 MR. : So, you did actually 10 that's mandated on your watch as you're 11 review the video? 11 supposed to do, then do those functions. That 12 MR..6 saw - I did see that video. 12 will keep ou awake. 13 MR. : Okay. You did. And you 13 MR. Yeah. 14 saw both of them asleep? Do you know about how 14 MR. If you're doing the work. 15 long they were sleeping? 15 MR. Were they allowed -- 16 MR. : I can't remember that. 16 MR. Do you -- 17 MR. Sure. And is that a big 17 MR. -- yeah. 18 problem? 18 MR. -- do you know if either 19 MR. That is a very big problem. 19 of these individuals, in this instance - Noel 20 MR. Okay. 20 or Thomas - were on mandatory overtime? 21 MR. : I mean, my thing is, is that 21 MR. : Noel was. I believe she was 22 I understand that, you know, you worked 22 going from evening watch to morning watch, and 23 overtime, or you was mandated to work another 23 I believe that Thomas came into work that as 24 time. When I was a Correctional Officer, guess 24 overtime. 25 what? I'll go get on the tier, I'll go do 25 MR. Now, Noel was mandatory EFTA00111895 265 266 1 overtime, thou She didn't -- 1 taken off psych observation, and needs to be 2 MR. : Yeah. She was a mandated. I 2 housed with an appropriate cell mate. Do you 3 think she was mandated because if you see here, 3 recall geiiiiiithat at all? 4 she was - her shift was 4:00 to 12:00. Right? 4 MR. : So, "At 07/30, inmate Epstein 5 And then, if you see here, as TO - Noel 5 is going to be taken off of psychological, and 6 overtime. So, if you go here, it's going to 6 needs to be housed with an appropriate inmate." 7 show, go to SHU One. Yeah. So, basically, if 7 I probablne cli ah. 8 iii eah, it says, yeah - if she was SHU One, 8 MR. : Now, can you flip over - 9 had hired her on 05/19. So, it doesn't 9 you're going to see all, like, the Lieutenants 10 show if she was mandatory, or whatever. 10 and everybody in there. If your Lieutenants 11 MR. : So, it could have 11 received this -- 12 voluntary? 12 MR. It would have said "Read." 13 MR. : It could have been voluntary. 13 MR. : -- so, do they have to 14 MR. : Okay. Okay. Great. And 14 click on a - do they have, like, for me, I can 15 the last thing I want to ask you about, and 15 say, like do I want to send a response or not? 16 then I'll turn it over to Lyeson. Here's an e- 16 MR. : No, they have to click on it. 17 mail that was sent out on 07/30/2019, from a 17 MR. : Right. So, if they don't 18 . Do you know who that is? 18 click on it they could still have read it? 19 19 MR. • Mm-hmm. 20 MR. . That sounds -- 20 MR. : And it wouldn't say "Read 21 MR. : I think it's -- 21 response"? 22 MR. • -- I think Ms. - hold 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. You would have to 23 on - she works in Psychology. 23 click on it to read it. 24 MR. : Yeah. And it says, 24 MR. : Do you know what I'm 25 "Inmate Epstein, number 76318-054, is being 25 saying? So, like, if I open an e-mail, it gives 267 268 1 me the -- 1 on there, you believe that some of these 2 MR. MMn-hmm. 2 Lieutenants actually may not have seen that e- 3 MR. : -- it gives me an option 3 mail? 4 - in my e-mail at least - do you want to send a 4 MR. ..1-hmm. 5 read response? 5 MR. : Okay. That's fair 6 MR. : No, it's different -- 6 enough. 7 MR. : Or not. 7 MR. : And that's fair. Because I 8 MR. : -- like, on mine, how I got 8 know, if you look at mine, like, I can actually 9 mine set up, I could see the e-mail message. 9 monitor emails, so you don't know if I read, if 10 You know you can do that, right? Like, on my 10 I seen it. 11 mine, like when m emails come up -- 11 MR. Well, that's kind of my 12 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 12 point. 13 MR. : I can read what it is 13 MR. Yeah. 14 without actuall clicking on it. 14 MR. Is that, like -- 15 MR. : So, there's a ton of 15 MR. Yeah. I have. Yeah. 16 people on there that it doesn't say "Read." 16 MR. . -- you can read it 17 MR. IIIIIIiiiiight. 17 without actually it showing that it was read. 18 MR. : Do you think that they 18 MR. : Yes. I can do it. 19 actually didn't see this e-mail, or didn't 19 MR. So, that's what I'm 20 actually read it? 20 saying. So, in this case -- 21 MR. El mean, I believe it. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, are a lot of BOP 22 MR. -- do you think that, 23 employees then, not reading their emails? 23 just because it says -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah, because, like, 25 MR. So, if it doesn't "Read" 25 read it. read it. read it. SHU EFTA00111896 269 270 1 staff. The AW read it. I'm just looking at 1 MR. Oh. 2 all of the Lieutenants. Lieutenant Durant read 2 MR. . 06/15/21. 3 it. The Warden read it. (Indiscernible 3 MR. 06/1S? 4 *01:47:41) read it. So, yeah, there was a few 4 MR. . Yeah. 06/15/21. 5 Lieutenants that actually read it. 5 MR. 06/15/21. Sorry about that. 6 MR. : Okay. But just because 6 MR. And just for all the 7 it says that they didn't read it, doesn't mean 7 counts and stuff, too. It was the sheet -- 8 they necessarily - like you - they could have 8 MR. : So, I got to do it -- 9 had somethin -- 9 MR. : No, no. Just -- 10 MR. : Right. 10 MR. • -- no, no, no, no 11 MR. : -- set up where it 11 MR. -- for all of these? 12 doesn't even show that they read it. 12 MR. • -- just the top of each, 13 MR. Right. 13 like, so, there's the staple. lust on each one 14 MR. : All right. Before I turn 14 that's still", 15 it over, can you just - just so we know what 15 MR. : All right. 06/15/21? 16 documents - can you just initial and date the 16 MR. : Yeah. This is just the 17 top of each of these sets of documents that I 17 way we keep records of what we actually talked 18 gave you? 18 about. 19 MR...eah. Right here? 19 MR. : I'm sorry. You know, it's 20 MR. : Yeah. lust all on top. 20 taking 21 Yup. Just your initial and date. Today's date 21 MR. : No. We really - it's 22 is -- 22 super helpful. There's a lot of stuff that you 23 MR. : What is today? 23 told us that we didn't know about, so. 24 MR. : 06/1S. 24 MR. : I was surprised you didn't 25 MR. : 06/15/21. 25 know about him being in the wrong cell. 271 272 1 MR. Yeah. No. That's - did 1 inmates, they have that right, to seek the 2 you know an thing about that? 2 legal counsel. 3 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. But again, that's an 4 MR. : So, it's up to the legal 5 administrative error, as opposed to any kind of 5 counsel when they want to go see them. If they 6 suspicion related to his death. Correct? 6 don't want to go see them every 90 days, 7 MR. alight. 7 that's, you know, but his legal counsel came 8 MR. : And then, just the duty 8 quite often. 9 Agent rosters, or the schedules. Thank you, 9 MR. : Oka fhe phone call. The 10 sir. 10 instruction you gave . You told him 11 MR. You're welcome. 11 that had made the phone call, record it. Now, 12 MR. • All right. Lyeson. 12 if Epstein mentioned that he wants to make the 13 MR. : lust a couple of follow up 13 phone call to a certain person, and if 14 questions. 14 dialed that number, is he supposed to identify 15 MR. : Sure. 15 that that's the person who answered the phone? 16 MR. : Was Epstein given special 16 MR. : Yeah. Like I told you 17 privileges, an thing like that? 17 before, that's part of the process. So, 18 MR. : No. I don't believe so. No. 18 that's, like, if I call you, and you say, well, 19 MR. : You mentioned that he was 19 I'm so and so, and I'm his Attorney. Okay. 20 meeting with his Attorneys seven days a week? 20 Fine. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Now, if that person wasn't 22 MR. : And was that allowed for any 22 the erson who answered the phone, what was 23 other the inmates? 23 supposed to do? 24 MR. : I mean, all the inmates are 24 MR. : Then he was supposed to not 25 afforded that because while they're pre-trial 25 give and allow him to - like, if he was trying EFTA00111897 273 274 1 to call a male and a female answered the phone, 1 try to call, it's only going to allow them to 2 if that meant, is so and so available? No. 2 call those numbers off of the phone list. 3 Then he wouldn't have gotten - been able to 3 MR. : Okay. 4 speak to the female person that answered the 4 MR. : You know what I'm saying? The 5 phone. No. 5 proof form is the green form. But over here, 6 MR. : According to the records, I 6 they say, well, I need to speak to my Attorney. 7 think Epstein mentioned he wanted to speak to 7 Okay, I'll give you the Attorney call. But if 8 his mother. 8 that was the case, he could have been afforded 9 MR. : Okay. I don't know. 9 or given, if he was calling his mother, if he 10 MR. : Is there, like, a list that 10 had time on the books, because he went back to 11 they need to go by, or just Epstein would 11 his cell prior to - I think the cell, the SHU, 12 provide the number, and that was it? 12 the cell, the phones in SHU cut off at 9:00 13 MR. : Basically, inmates are 13 p.m. I'm not certain. I can't remember. He 14 supposed to supply certain people their 14 could have called his mother at that time. And 15 supposed to call. So, like, on their phone 15 we wouldn't have had to facilitate the call. 16 list, there's certain people that we vet, that 16 He could have called her right from the thing. 17 the inmates can call. So, normally, it's, 17 MR. : So, I just want to - should 18 like, over in - a religious person, your 18 have checked that list before he made 19 immediate family members, a girlfriend, a wife, 19 that phone call? 20 a spouse, children, stuff like that, past or 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 whatever. But then, legally, if your legal 21 MR. : Okay. And the last question 22 contact or your Attorney, it's different. You 22 is, if the order came from Psych, right? - It 23 know, you can - that's a totally different type 23 was just a question - if the order came from 24 of call. Outside of what the inmates get. 24 Psych, that Epstein needed a cell mate, should 25 Like, if they pick up the commissary phone, and 25 they have come down to the Unit and made sure 275 276 1 that everyone else knew about it, that 1 would be made for any suicide watch inmate 2 requirement? 2 coming off of suicide watch. 3 MR. : No. Well, what do you mean? 3 MR. : Oh so, she sent that e-mail? 4 MR. : Let's say, at Psych, that 4 MR. : That's it, if you pull up any 5 5 other e-mail dealing with an e-mail coming from 6 MR. : Yeah. 6 suicide watch, back to SHU, that would be for 7 MR. -- e-mail came out saying 7 any inmate. But however, with him, you 8 that, Epstein required a cell mate. 8 couldn't necessarily do that because he would 9 MR. : Okay. So, what would have 9 have to have a vetted cell mate. He would have 10 happened is, if he would have been released - 10 to have somebody appropriate for him. Not just 11 because she would put that out. So, if the 11 any cell that was open. That, you know, if it 12 inmate was being released from suicide watch, 12 was a -- 13 prior for him being released from suicide 13 MR. : I see. 14 watch, that would have went to the exec staff, 14 MR. : -- single occupancy, then you 15 that would have went to the SHU OIC, the 15 could put him in there. But no, he had to be 16 Operations Lieutenant, to inform him that he 16 vetted before he could go in with anybody. 17 needs - before place him in SHU - he needs to 17 MR. That's all I had. 18 have an appropriate cell mate. Not a vetted 18 MR. : Is there anything we're 19 one. Just someone because of what the SHU 19 missing? An thing we didn't cover? 20 policy says, that an inmate must have a cell 20 MR. : That's it. 21 mate. 21 MR. : Let me see this form 22 MR. : Okay, but it's on -- 22 right here. Yeah, we covered that. All right. 23 MR. : But it doesn't say a vetted 23 So, yeah. If there's nothing else on your end, 24 cell mate. It doesn't say all these protocols. 24 then just we'll wrap it up. 25 But with her, that's a general statement that 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111898 277 278 1 MR. And there's - again - 1 MR. : -- the daily log. 2 there's nothing that you discussed with the 2 MR. The daily log. 3 FBI, or the OIG, previous, that we didn't 3 MR. : The Lieutenant's log. So, 4 cover? On this. 4 there was two different logs, and then, one of 5 MR. : No. That's pretty much 5 the logs wasn't right. And then, when I went 6 everything,________ 6 back, it had been deleted. And then, I see her 7 MR. IIIIIIIIII: That's it. Perfect. It 7 leaving out the building at 9:15 a.m. 8 sounds like you were with -IIIII. Was 8 MR. Okay. 9 there anything else that she didn't do, that 9 MR. On that Saturday morning. 10 she should have? Aside from that round. 10 MR. And when should have she 11 MR. : I mean, with 11 left? 12 I believe that it was the issue with the log. 12 MR. : She should have left at 6:00. 13 I think it was a log issue that we had talked 13 Why was she in the building for another three 14 about, that when I pulled up the initial log, 14 plus hours? And I brought that up to the 15 after I got there, when I pulled up the 15 investigators to the OIG. 16 Lieutenant's log, it appeared that it was two 16 MR. : Can I see that timeline? 17 different logs in the system. And then, within 17 MR. Do you have any reason to 18 45 minutes, one log had disappeared out of the 18 believe - obviously, there looks like there was 19 system, and then, I see her leaving at about 19 some people that dropped the ball here, there's 20 9:15 a.m., out of the building. I don't know 20 some, like we talked about, job performance 21 where she was in the building, but at 9:15 21 failure, security failure - do you have any 22 a.m., she comes walking out of the building. 22 reason to believe that there's anybody that 23 And I reported that to OIG when I talked to 23 harmed Epstein? 24 them. I talked to them about that log being -- 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. And what was the log? 25 MR. So, do you believe that - 279 280 1 1 MR. : Because all this stuff is 2 MR. 2 going into evidence. So, I'm hurrying, I'm 3 MR. • -- he took his own life? 3 trying to gather this stuff. So, the log, I'm 4 MR. : I believe he took his own 4 trying to compare it to the rounds, it's not 5 life. 5 jiving. So, I'm reading the log, and the log 6 MR. . Okay. 6 is totally - it's not jiving. The whole thing 7 MR. : I don't believe any of the 7 is - the times, the frames - it's not jiving. 8 staff did harm to him. No, I don't. 8 So then, all of the sudden, when I'm printing 9 MR. Okay. 9 out the paperwork from TRUSCOPE, I go back and 10 MR. don't. Nah. 10 I look at the log, boom, another log pops up. 11 MR. And then, as far as - 11 So, I'm reading this one, and then, the other 12 going back to and this log book 12 log that was there before is deleted. 13 - when you saw that there was two - it looks 13 MR. And she has the ability 14 like - duplicates, did you see what the 14 to do that? 15 discrepancies were, when you noticed that there 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 were two of them for that daily log? 16 MR. : Would the system reflect that 17 MR. : Right. Because I'm going to 17 she made chap es? 18 tell you how I found out. 18 MR. : No. It's not like -- 19 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Or made changes. 20 MR. ro, when I went in TRUSCOPE, 20 MR. : -- it's not like the roster. 21 I told you I was looking for the rounds. 21 The roster is not going to tell you. You know, 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 the roster will tell you who goes in there and 23 MR. : Because I'm bouncing the log 23 manipulates the roster. But not that. 24 off of what the rounds was. 24 MR. (Indiscernible 25 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 *01:58:10). EFTA00111899 281 282 1 MR. : But like I said, then, when 1 MR. -- and is that with the 2 I'm in passing, because I'm in the Lieutenant's 2 FBI present? 3 Office, and I see across, I look out, because, 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 you know, the Alpha door, that door that leads 4 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 5 out, she's walking, they let her out through 5 MR. : And at 9:15, she left between 6 Control Center, at 9:15. I'm, like, where she 6 the hours - approximately - 9:10 and 9:15 a.m., 7 been all this time? 7 on 08/10. 8 MR. : And did you ever talk to 8 MR. : Okay. 9 her? 9 MR. we have a note in here 10 MR. M. needed to talk to her. 10 that the SHU count was corrected by the 11 MR. : Did you ever question her 11 Lieutenant log, completed by Lieutenant 12 about that? 12 . At the midnight time, the midnight 13 MR. : No. 13 count, where she corrected it from 73 to 72. 14 MR. : No? 14 Do you recall reading that? 15 MR. : I let OIG deal with it. 15 MR. : Like I said, it was all kind 16 Because once the file came up missing, she 16 of discrepancies, all kinds of discrepancies on 17 didn't report doing rounds. The log was 17 that log. So, I'm just trying to gather 18 duplicated. I said something is going on 18 everything, so I could bring it before the 19 here. I let Mr. know that. I told the 19 Warden, to let him know what's going on. 20 Warden. I told OIG. That was part of my - I 20 Before we ut it in the S83. 21 don't know why it's not in there - I talked 21 MR. : That's what we talked 22 about that lo 22 about. 23 MR. • And was that -- 23 MR. Yeah. 24 MR. : I talked about her leaving 24 MR. : We already talked about 25 the institution at 9:15. 25 that, though. 283 284 1 MR. : Do you understand what I'm 1 MR. : Okay. So, it was a log - 2 saying? 2 overnight lo that got changed? 3 MR. Like, what he's talking 3 MR. : Yes. 4 about is, after these, and I actually cut that 4 MR. : All right. iiiiire there. 5 out. So,Ithe 5 MR. All right. We'll have to 6 MR. : So, no, but - he's mentioning 6 follow up with that. But all right. Anything 7 - from my understanding is - you're saying that 7 else? 8 the log afterwards, or throughout the night? 8 MR. : No. That's it, man. 9 That all ni ht, you got -- 9 MR. Thank you. That was 10 MR. : When I got -- 10 very, very helpful. Thank you so much for your 11 MR. : -- you were (Indiscernible 11 time. It is currently 2:07 p.m., on Tuesday, 12 *02:00:02 12 June 15 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 13 MR. 'I'll': -- when I was reviewing the 13 with the DO] OIG, and I am 14 log from the night, from 08/09 into 08/10. 14 turning off the recorder. 15 MR. : Okay. 15 16 MR. : That morning watch log for 16 17 08/10? Because it starts off with this one, and 17 18 then it follows, like this. It was totally 18 19 bad. It was messed up. It showed - it was a 19 20 bad log. And then, by the time I was being 20 21 able to print that log, that log had changed. 21 22 MR. : All right. 22 23 MR. : And then, another one was 23 24 there. That's why I reported it. I don't know 24 25 why it's not - I reported that to OIG. 25 EFTA00111900 28') CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00111901