EFTA00115005

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JULY 20, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00115005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 Today is Thursday, July 15, 2021. The 3 time is 4:03 p.m. and I've turned on the 4 recorder. My name is , I'm a 5 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice, Office of Inspector General, New York 7 Field Office and these are my credentials. 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : This interview is with the 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer 11 and this interview is being conducted as 12 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 13 Office of Inspector General investigation. 14 Today is July 15, 2021. The time is 4:04 p.m. 15 This interview is being conducted at the 16 Metropolitan Correctional Center located at 150 17 Park Row. We are in the Executive Assistant's 18 office. Also present is DOJ OIG Senior Special 19 Agent and CO . This 20 interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent 21 . Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start, I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 24 25 MR. : I'm Senior Special Agent EFTA00115007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 also 2 with the DOJ OIG. 3 MR. : Can you please state your 4 first and last name? 5 MR. : Oh, and these are my 6 credentials just so you do know. 7 MS. : Okay. I'm Correctional 8 Systems Officers S. with 9 the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Department of 10 Justice. 11 MR. : This is an official DOJ OIG 12 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffery 13 Epstein and the surrounding circumstances. You 14 are being asked to voluntarily provide answers 15 to our questions. Will you agree to a 16 voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Please review DOJ OIG form 3- 19 226/2. The form basically states, "United 20 States Department of Justice, Office of 21 Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to 22 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 23 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 24 provide information as part of an investigation 25 being conducted by the Office of Inspector EFTA00115008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 General. This investigation is being conducted 2 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 3 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 4 performance failure and security failure." 5 It's in general. It has nothing to do with you 6 directly, it's in general, the investigation 7 we're doing. "This is a voluntary interview. 8 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 9 questions. No disciplinary action will be 10 taken against you if you choose not to answer 11 questions. Any statement you furnish may be 12 used as evidence in any future criminal 13 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 14 or both." The waiver states, "I understand the 15 warnings and assurances stated above and I am 16 willing to make a statement and answer 17 questions. No promises or threats have been 18 made to me or no pressure or coercion of any 19 kind has been used against me." Please review 20 the document and let me know if you understand. 21 If you do understand, please sign the document 22 where it says, "Employee signature," and print 23 your name. 24 MR. : And just for the record, 25 it doesn't basically state what you just said, EFTA00115009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 it actually states everything that you just 2 read. 3 MR. : It states that. I used the 4 word "basically states," I shouldn't have said 5 that. 6 MS. : Okay. And I sign at employee 7 sig-. 8 MR. : It says, "Employee 9 signature," and print your name right below it. 10 MR. : Oh, do you have any 11 questions on that before we go, just you can 12 totally ask (Indiscernible *00:03:35). 13 MS. : Okay. No. 14 MR. : Just, I mean, the long 15 and -- 16 MS. : Date and time? 17 MR. : -- short of it is 18 MR. : I'll put it in there. 19 MR. : -- we can do that. But 20 then just the long and short of it is, it's 21 voluntary. You do not have to answer 22 questions. You can leave at any time. 23 MS. : Okay. 24 MR. : That's the purpose, for 25 you just to -. EFTA00115010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So you understand the form 2 and agree to the form. 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : This is Special Agent 5 I'm signing on the signature of the Office of 6 Inspector General, Special Agent. 7 MR. : This is Senior Special 8 Agent . I'll be signing as 9 the witness, printing my name as a witness, 10 entering the date and time as July 15, 2021 at 11 4:07 p.m. and the place MCC New York. 12 MR. : Before starting the 13 interview, III like to place you under oath. 14 Ms. , can you please raise your right 15 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 16 nothing but the truth during this interview? 17 MS. : I do. 18 MR. : Please - you can put your 19 hand down. 20 MS. : Oh, okay. 21 MR. : Please let me know if you 22 don't understand my questions and I'll try to 23 repeat it or try to rephrase it for you. 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : I want to again, clarify this EFTA00115011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 interview is specifically regarding inmate 2 Jeffrey Epstein on August 9th and 10th, 2019. 3 I'm going to go through some background 4 questions. What is your current home address? 5 MS. : My current home address? 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MS. : Why is that relevant for 8 this? 9 MR. : As part of our investi-. 10 MR. : You don't have to provide 11 that. 12 MS. : Oh yeah, I don't want to -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MS. : -- give my address. 15 MR. : If you have anything - 16 any kind of, like a PIV card you can show us 17 just so we can verify who it is that you are? 18 MS. : You know what? I left it at 19 my desk. 20 MR. : That's okay. Do you mind 21 providing us your date of birth and your last 22 four of your social security number? 23 MS. : Yes. is my date 24 of birth and last four of my social, 25 MR. : What is your highest level of EFTA00115012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 education? 2 MS. : Master's degree. 3 MR. : Okay. In what? 4 MS. : Inspector General 5 investigations, fraud, waste, abuse or 6 corruption, organizational assessment and 7 monitoring. 8 MR. : You know more about this 9 stuff than us then. 10 MR. : Which college? 11 MS. : John Jay. 12 MR. : And what about bachelors? 13 MS. : My bachelors was correctional 14 administration. 15 MR. : What did you do prior to 16 working for the BOP? 17 MR. : Ask her about where this 18 stuff was and when she got these degrees. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : I got my masters in 2017. 21 got my BA in I believe 2006. 22 MR. : Also from John Jay? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. And what - so prior to 25 working for the BOP, what did you do? EFTA00115013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Juvenile corrections. 2 MR. : Where? 3 MS. : Virginia. 4 MR. : Is that with the state? 5 City? 6 MS. : Yeah. State Department of 7 Juvenile Justice. 8 MR. : Was that directly before the 9 BOP? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : What years? I you don't 12 recall -. 13 MR. : They can be approximate. 14 MR. : Estimate, yeah. 15 MS. : Approximately, I think 2006 16 or `07 to 2009, when I started here. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 18 military service? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : And how long have you served 21 with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 22 MS. : Approximately now, 2009, 2019 23 is 10 years, 20, 21, going on 11 and a half 24 years. 25 MR. : Eleven and a half years? And EFTA00115014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 when was your enter on duty date? 2 MS. : 9/13/2009. 3 MR. : When did you graduate from 4 BOP training? 5 MS. : I don't remember that. I 6 don't -. 7 MR. : When did you begin your 8 career here at MCC? 9 MS. : March of 2011. 10 MR. : And what was your position at 11 that point? 12 MS. : Correctional Officer. 13 MR. : What is your current 14 position? 15 MS. : Correctional Systems Officer. 16 MR. : And what's your regular 17 schedule right now? 18 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00 Monday through 19 Friday. 20 MR. : Do you -. 21 MR. : What does your position 22 entail? What is that? 23 MS. : Receiving and discharge, 24 movement. I deal with state risk, federal 25 risk, detainers, pending charges, warrants, EFTA00115015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what else? 2 MR. : And that's outside of 3 custody? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. What is your grade 6 level? 7 MS. : GS-8. 8 MR. : Eight? Okay. 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : What was your position on 11 August 9th and 10th, 2019? 12 MS. : I was a Correctional Systems 13 Officer, but I was working overtime in custody. 14 What a minute. I don't even know what day that 15 is. 16 MR. : August 9th is a Friday. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : And August 10th is Saturday. 19 I can provide you the daily assignment roster - 20 21 MS. : And what -. 22 MR. -- for the MCC -- 23 MS. : Okay. 24 MR. and that's for August 9th 25 and 10th. If you look at it, you'll be able to EFTA00115016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : And provide her -- 3 MS. : This is two -. 4 MR. : -- provide her also her 5 timesheet. 6 MR. : Yes. Is this your timesheet 7 for the same time period? 8 MR. : Show her the columns 9 (Indiscernible *00:08:55). 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : It's (Indiscernible 12 *00:08:58). 13 MS. : I normally write everything 14 on a calendar, but looks like my timesheet. 15 MR. : So, the timesheet is for 16 August 4th all the way to August 17th. For the 17 9th, where does this timesheet show that you 18 worked? 19 MS. : This - it doesn't show where 20 you're working, it just shows the hours you've 21 worked. 22 MR. : Is it coded under a certain 23 entry? 24 MR. : Well just ask her, do you 25 know by looking at these documents, do you know EFTA00115017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 where on August 9th and August 10th you were 2 working? This is not an, "I got you," 3 whatsoever. Just like, do you recall on August 4 9th(Indiscernible *00:10:03) working? 5 MS. : Well, I know that this is a 6 custody overtime code for the overtime sheets. 7 So this is -. 8 MR. : If it doesn't state, that's 9 okay. 10 MS. : It's possible, because I do 11 I was working a lot of overtime, so. But I 12 can't recall off the top of my head. But I 13 know I did work the evening of the Epstein 14 situation, so. 15 MR. : When you say "evening."? 16 MS. : The morning he hung himself. 17 MR. : Okay. So according to the 18 August 10th schedule, find yourself on the 19 schedule? 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : What were you listed for? 22 MS. : Control one. 23 MR. : Control one. Okay. Do you 24 recall being interviewed by - recall 25 interviewing with the OIG regarding the Epstein EFTA00115018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 investigation in 2019? 2 MS. : I remember being interviewed, 3 yes. 4 MR. : Okay. What I have is a 5 summary off a report written by the FBI. Was 6 the FBI also present? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : We did get a copy of it 9 because OIG was present for the interview also. 10 I'm going to read a portion of the interview 11 record for you. 12 MR. : Does it state when she 13 worked on August 9 and 10? That might help 14 clarify things. 15 MR. : For the 10th it does. And 16 so, I'm going to read it. As I read through 17 it, it's just summary for the record. Please 18 tell me if there's any corrections and let me 19 know -- 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. and we'll address it. 22 "Control's duties include monitoring the 23 activity on the ranges, answering calls from 24 COs, replying on the radio and opening doors." 25 MS. : Monitoring - you - at that EFTA00115019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 time, we didn't have cameras on the ranges so 2 you could only see the center, which is like, 3 they consider it the MPA, multi-purpose area of 4 the unit. You are not able to see down the 5 actual ranges of the units, so no. I wouldn't 6 say, "The ranges," I would say, "The multi- 7 purpose area." 8 MR. : Multi-purpose area of the 9 ranges. "And ," did I pronounce it 10 right? 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. . stated that no one is 13 really moving anywhere within the institution. 14 A count sheet is called the E-1 and it is 15 printed off from the internal MCC system called 16 SENTRY. Control validates all respondent 17 numbers from the head counts and marks an X on 18 the E-1 sheet to confirm the count. This 19 happens for every check of every unit. E-ls 20 are supplemented with count slips that are 21 properly filled out and stapled to the E-1 22 timesheet. Once all head count numbers are 23 verified to be correct, everything is 24 documented, recorded and then considered to be 25 a good count. began her shift on August EFTA00115020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 10th at 12:00 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 2 stated that Lieutenant took care of 3 the 12 o'clock count that day." I'm going to 4 pause right there. I'm going to ask you a 5 question. Do you recall coming on shift that 6 day? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Do you recall the first count 9 would be at 12:00 midnight? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : And were you in Control when 12 the count happened? 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : Who took the count? 15 MS. : I don't remember at that 16 time. I don't remember all this time ago, but 17 if I said the Lieutenant took the count at that 18 time, then that's who took the count, because 19 every Lieutenant is required to take a count, 20 one count per shift. 21 MR. : But you don't recall the 22 exact situation -. 23 MR. : I think what he's asking 24 was, was Lieutenant in the Control 25 with you? EFTA00115021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 MS. : At some point in time, yes, 2 she was. 3 MR. : So if she was taking the 4 count, does that mean that she's doing from 5 Control? 6 MS. : Yes, she's doing it from 7 Control. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Okay. recalled that 10 CO Thomas -" - and this says CO Noel, but is 11 that Noel? 12 MS. : Noel. 13 MR. "CO Noel worked in the SHU on 14 the day of the incident. stated that 15 Noel was fairly new. stated that she 16 does not pay specific attention to just one 17 individual screen during her shifts since so 18 much is going on. stated that extension 19 6468 is a number that is called for reporting 20 the count. If a Lieutenant is on the unit for 21 the count, then this is when it is considered a 22 watch call. On the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 23 watch calls, ran the counts. 24 recalled that the SHU called in the count of 25 the day and that the count was accurate. EFTA00115022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 does not recall who called in the count 2 from the SHU but recalled that the number was 3 72. stated that there are folders that 4 are filed that are compiled with count 5 verification timesheets for every day of the 6 calendar year." 7 MS. : That is correct. 8 MR. : So I asked you, on August 9 10th, you said you worked at midnight in 10 Control. 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Do you recall if you worked 13 on August 9th? 14 MS. : I probably did. I don't 15 recall that, this far from now to then, but I 16 probably most likely worked that day and if 17 it's on the roster and it's on my timesheet, 18 most likely, yes. 19 MR. : But you wouldn't happen to 20 recall if you worked in internal or III? 21 MS. : I know I worked III because 22 that's my regular position and Custody, 23 anything I did in Custody would be considered 24 overtime for me. 25 MR. : Okay. So, on August 9th, by EFTA00115023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 based on that, it wouldn't tell - would the 2 (Indiscernible *00:15:16). 3 MS. : It did say overtime. It did 4 say overtime in internal. 5 MR. : But internal is not - is that 6 the same as III? 7 MS. : No. III, this is 8 Correctional Services. III is Correctional 9 Systems. Those are two different departments. 10 This is custody and III is non-custody. 11 MR. : So by this, were you in 12 custody? 13 MS. : Yes. I was there. 14 MR. : Okay. So you were working in 15 internal, not in III 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you recall who your 18 supervisor was when you worked at the MCC on 19 August 9th and 10th? 20 MS. : I would only know by looking 21 at this roster. , Lieutenant 22 MR. : So you report only to 23 or do you report to any other COs 24 MS. : No, she's the only supervisor 25 on duty during that time. EFTA00115024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : During the night. And so 2 both days it was midnight to 8:00 a.m. 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. Was she also a 5 supervisor? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Are you familiar with inmate 8 Jeffrey Epstein? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : Did Jeffrey Epstein have a 11 cell mate? 12 MS. : Yes, he did. 13 MR. : Do you know who it was? 14 MS. : I don't know, but I know the 15 inmate went out to court I believe Friday and 16 he didn't come back from court. I don't know 17 if he got released from court, but he didn't 18 come back to the institution that day. 19 MR. : How do you know that? 20 MS. : Because I work in III 21 MR. : So, is this from your 22 knowledge from working in III that day or on a 23 later date? 24 MS. : My knowledge of working in 25 III that day. EFTA00115025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : So that's - okay. Because 2 according to this, you were in III -- 3 MS. : I was in 4 MR. : I mean, you're in 5 internal. 6 MS. : Right. But this is midnight. 7 My hours in III is from 12:00 to 8:00. 8 MR. : 12:00 to 8:00? So you did 9 work later in the shift -- 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. so that (Indiscernible 12 *00:16:56) be on the schedule at all. You're 13 not going to be on this roster. It's not going 14 to show you as 12:00 to 8:00. 15 MS. : Custody has a different 16 roster from my department roster. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : So you're not going to see my 19 department. My department hours would be that 20 - what you see on that timesheet and this is 21 considered overtime. So anything here, where 22 it says, "Additional," this is overtime because 23 you see the two shifts, the eight up here and 24 the eight at the bottom. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MS. : And that's 16 hours for the 2 day. 3 MR. : So I'm going to go back and 4 clarify. On August 9th, you worked from 5 midnight to 8:00 a.m. -- 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : -- and you were in internal. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : And then after that, what was 10 your next shift? 11 MS. : That was Saturday, the next 12 day. That would be midnight the next night. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : These are all midnight 15 shifts. 16 MR. : Midnight shifts. But did you 17 work regular shifts those days? August 9th and 18 10th? 19 MS. : In my department? 20 MR. : Yeah, in 21 MS. : If it's a Friday and a 22 Thursday or a Friday and a Saturday. A 23 Saturday, I wouldn't be in my department, no. 24 MR. : What about Friday? 25 MS. : Friday I'm in my department, EFTA00115027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 yes, because my department is Monday through 2 Friday. 3 MR. : And what's your regular time? 4 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00. I believe I 5 was working 12:00 to 8:00. I'm not sure. 6 MR. : That's midnight to 8:00, 7 right? But midnight to 8:00 -. 8 MS. : No, no, no, 12:00 p.m. in the 9 afternoon -- 10 MR. : 12:00 p.m. to 8:00. 11 MS. to 8:00 p.m. 12 MR. : To 8:00 p.m. So, according 13 to this, you were in internal from - on August 14 9th, from midnight to 8:00 a.m., then there was 15 a four hour break? Are you saying there was a 16 four hour break and then you worked from -. 17 MS. : I'm not sure right here based 18 on this because I might have been working 2:00 19 to 10:00 because I had to do 12:00 8:00 p.m. or 20 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : So, based on this, this says, 23 "Regular base." This might have been from the 24 day shift because this says, "Regular base," so 25 this might have been, I worked midnight to 8:00 EFTA00115028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 in the morning and then maybe 8:00 to 4:00 in 2 my department because I don't see no - well, I 3 don't recall my duty hours in my department at 4 that time. 5 MR. : It's been a while. 6 MS. : I'm sorry. Yeah. 7 MR. : But to follow up though, 8 you said that you knew that Epstein's cell mate 9 had left because you were working in so 10 you probably want to follow up -- 11 MR. : Yeah. So -. 12 MR. : -- with that. 13 MS. : So we key inmates in and out 14 to court. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : So that - so, Reyes, how did 17 you first come to learn that he left? 18 MS. : Because we have to key them 19 out to go to court. I mean, I don't know 20 actually at that moment that he was Epstein's 21 cell mate, but when the comment came up that 22 his bunkie, they moved his bunkie, they put him 23 in a cell by himself, and when we learned who 24 that specific inmate was, that's how I became 25 aware that, no, this guy went to court and he EFTA00115029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was released from court, wherever he got 2 removed to. Never came back from court. 3 MR. : What do you mean they moved 4 his bunkie to a separate cell? 5 MS. : They kept saying Epstein was 6 put in a cell by himself, he didn't have a cell 7 mate. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : That was not the case, he did 10 have a cell mate, but he got released from 11 court or wherever it is the Marshals took him 12 to, that he didn't come back to MCC. But off 13 the top to say I knew that that was actually 14 his cell mate, I didn't know that until we 15 became aware of who the inmate was that got 16 released and went to court, because we don't 17 know who inmate's cell mates are just by 18 working in III, we just know their bed 19 assignment and what unit they're coming from. 20 MR. : No, working the III, are you 21 familiar with something called the court list? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Was inmate Reyes's name on 24 the court list? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00115030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 MR. : Do you recall? 2 MS. : Yeah. Because I think that's 3 the guy we keyed out to court. 4 MR. : Okay. And what is a court 5 list? 6 MS. : A court list is something we 7 get from the Marshals. They'll send us over 8 just a roster of names of inmates to appear for 9 production to the court either going out on a 10 writ, being transferred to another jail. A 11 court list consists of whatever type of 12 movement that the Marshals want the inmates 13 for. It could be appearing before a proffer to 14 tell on somebody, it could just be whatever it 15 is that they need them to appear for the court 16 production for. 17 MR. : How do the Marshals send it 18 over? 19 MS. : They always email it or fax 20 it. 21 MR. : Who receives the email? 22 MS. Everybody in III 23 MR. : Do you recall who was working 24 in III that day? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00115031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 MR. : Everybody receives it. 2 MS. : Yeah, everybody in III 3 receives it, but I couldn't say off the -- 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MS. : -- top of my head, "Oh, this 6 person worked," I don't remember who worked 7 with me that day. 8 MR. : So everybody that 9 actually is in III, you all get that same 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- court sheet, so it 12 doesn't matter who was working that day or not. 13 MS. : Right. 14 MR. : Everybody would have 15 gotten it. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Do you recall receiving that 18 email? 19 MS. : I don't recall receiving the 20 email, but I know we had a court list. 21 MR. : Who creates that court list? 22 MS. : Whoever is doing movement. 23 MR. : Okay. And what - so you just 24 mentioned all the inmates that's listed on 25 there anything for movement and the Marshals EFTA00115032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 send it over 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- and they email it. And 4 what do you get? 5 MR. : Email or fax you said, 6 right? 7 MS. : Email or fax. 8 MR. : Or fax. 9 MR. : Is it (Indiscernible 10 *00:22:21) -. 11 MS. : Well, I believe they were 12 doing both email and faxing at that time. 13 MR. : So you get both. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : And once the list comes over, 17 and who did you say creates the court list? 18 MS. : The movement officer and if 19 the movement officer is not there, whoever is 20 filling in, it might be somebody in the front 21 desk. Just whoever is in the department, 22 they'll fill out the - complete the court list, 23 put it on a call out and get it prepared so 24 overnight, the officer who is internal can pass 25 it out to the housing unit so the inmates are EFTA00115033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 aware when they wake up the next day or the 2 officer can say, "Hey, I got this inmate, I've 3 got to get him ready for court the next day." 4 MR. : Who is the movement officer? 5 MS. : I don't know if - I don't 6 know who was the movement officer at that time. 7 I don't know. 8 MR. : Okay. When do the -. 9 MR. : When you say a movement 10 officer, are you talking about control? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : I mean internal? 13 MS. No. III 14 MR. : III movement officer? 15 MS. : We have different position - 16 yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : We have different positions 19 in III where everybody had a different 20 function. 21 MR. : Okay. So is the movement 22 officer in III basically like will go into 23 internal with (Indiscernible *00:23:21)? 24 MS. : No, they are - they are like, 25 they prepare the transfer orders if inmates are EFTA00115034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 moving out of the -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. institution. 4 MR. : So they're doing the 5 background of what the internal guy does 6 almost. 7 MS. : They don't have anything to 8 do with internal. 9 MR. : Okay. Because - okay. 10 Sorry. 11 MS. : It's - no. 12 MR. : I'm making more things 13 more (Indiscernible *00:23:38). 14 MS. : Nothing to do with internal. 15 It's just preparing inmates to move out of the 16 institution, preparing the production list for 17 inmates to - for a unit - for a list to be 18 disseminated to the housing units for the 19 officers to know what inmate has to appear in 20 court the next day. The movement officer might 21 draft up a - get a compile, like a medical 22 summary, transit order, anything that they need 23 to put together for an inmate to be released to 24 move out of the institution to be transferred. 25 That's what the movement officer does. EFTA00115035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Great. 2 MR. : Do you recall what your 3 position was in the III that day? 4 MS. : I might have been III. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : I might have been 7 don't believe I was movement but I might have 8 been III. 9 MR. : So as III, what would you 10 take care of? 11 MS. : Court movement, inmates going 12 in and out, keying them in and out, getting 13 inmates down to my area to get prepared for 14 court, tracking inmates going out to the 15 hospital, keying inmates going out to the 16 hospital, keying inmates coming back. 17 Basically, I would be responsible for like 18 inmates leaving in and out of the institution 19 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : -- and preparing them to get 22 out of the institution. 23 MR. : We can take a step back. 24 When did the Marshals list normally come over? 25 Do they send it over the night before? EFTA00115036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Evening before or they send 3 it the morning of? 4 MS. : The evening before. 5 MR. : Around what time? 6 MS. : I think it's always around 7 it's approximately between, I would say, maybe 8 3:00 and 5:00 or - yeah, between like 3:00 and 9 5:00, something like that. 10 MR. : Okay. And -. 11 MS. : Around that time frame. It's 12 not like a set time, it's whoever does it and 13 faxes it over and emails it. But it was about 14 maybe between 3:00 and 5:00 or 3:00 and 6:00, 15 something like that. 16 MR. : And then once receives 17 it, you guys prepare a court list. 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : And what does it state on the 20 court list? 21 MS. : It's just a document, like a 22 SENTRY created document that show the inmate's 23 name, his housing unit, if he has a separatee 24 (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:49) in the institution and 25 what time he has to come down to III to move EFTA00115037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 out for court, whether it be that he has court 2 in the a.m. or court in the p.m. 3 MR. : Okay. And would it state, 4 like, let's say if an inmate was leaving and 5 not coming back, would it state on there? 6 MS. : Yeah, it would say, "WAB," 7 but most often times, pre-trial is - because 8 they're not our inmates, they're Marshals 9 inmates, the Marshals can move them at any 10 given time and just forward us back a 11 disposition of the inmate leaving. "Inmate so 12 and so was released to Probation. Here's a cut 13 slip for you guys' file -" - then we can go 14 ahead and key them out. But we don't key 15 inmates out WAB if they're going out to court. 16 We key them out - at that time, we were doing 17 what was considered an out count. We weren't 18 keying inmates out, we were keying them on an 19 out count so we know that we have an account of 20 who went out to court and we have an account of 21 who came back from court. 22 MR. : So are you saying that you 23 guys wouldn't remove the inmate completely from 24 the count, you would just leave them under the 25 out count? EFTA00115038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 MS. : Yes. We would only remove 2 him if prior to that list, when we got the 3 list, it says, "Transferred WAB, we're sending 4 him somewhere to Brooklyn or he's going back to 5 the state," that night before we would know 6 that. But sometimes at the spur of the moment, 7 things might arise, a judge might give a person 8 time served, he might commit him to drug 9 treatment program, Probation might come and 10 pick him up. It could be a number of things 11 that take place at court that it might be just 12 a regular court proceeding but then he gets 13 released and he doesn't come back to the 14 institution. 15 MR. : Do you recall seeing inmate 16 Efrain Reyes's name on that list? 17 MS. : If he was on that list at 18 that time, then I've seen it, but I don't 19 recall now, speaking now, but at that time, 20 yeah, if his name was on the list, yes. 21 MR. : Do you recall if his - I know 22 you said you don't recall, but by any chance, 23 would you have known if he left WAB? What does 24 WAB stand for? 25 MS. : With all belongings, meaning EFTA00115039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 they're being transferred either to an air 2 lift, transferred to another BOP, transferred 3 to another state institution, that the Marshals 4 will be transferring them to. 5 MR. : And you don't recall if he 6 do you recall if his name was on as WAB on that 7 list? 8 MS. : No. I don't recall that. 9 MR. : Okay. We'll come back in a 10 little bit. The court list that you guys 11 create, who does that get sent to? 12 MS. : It doesn't get sent to - it 13 gets sent to the unit officers. We don't email 14 it out, we make hard copies and the internal 15 officer comes around at night and he gives one 16 to each housing unit. 17 MR. : Around what time? 18 MS. : Depending on - any time 19 during from midnight to 8:00 in the morning. 20 They have up until to give out that. But most 21 likely, no later than 5:00 a.m., after the 5 22 o'clock count because at that time, that's when 23 the institution is opening up after the 5:00 24 a.m. count, then the inmates will have their 25 breakfast and start preparing for whatever it EFTA00115040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 is their day entails. 2 MR. : Do you recall working that 3 morning in III and seeing inmate Reyes come 4 down? 5 MS. : I don't remember. 6 MR. : Okay. And when the list is 7 sent up to the units, what do they do with it? 8 MS. : The unit officers take it and 9 he views it and it just tells him who on his 10 unit has court that day. 11 MR. : Is a copy of that list 12 maintained anywhere? 13 MR. : By 14 MR. : 15 MS. : No. Because -- 16 MR. : Where do we get it? 17 MS. : -- once we - once that list 18 is done of the day, we just shred it, we don't 19 need it. 20 MR. : What about what's used to 21 - it sounds like create the list from the 22 Marshals, can we get - can we go back to emaiis 23 from August 8th, I guess it would be, to get 24 that court list from August 9th? 25 MS. : If it's still in the system, EFTA00115041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 yeah, you would still - you would be able to 2 see it, yeah. 3 MR. : And you said at that 4 time, they're both fax and email so any single 5 person we could just grab an email from them if 6 it was archived? 7 MS. : Uh-huh. If it's still, you 8 know, in the system, but we don't normally keep 9 court lists. Once we done for that day, 10 everything gets shredded and we start fresh for 11 the next day. So we don't hold onto court 12 lists. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Just something we never did. 15 The only thing we hold onto is transfer orders, 16 people that transferred out, like -. 17 MR. : So for instance, with 18 Reyes - when you say "transfer order," does 19 that also mean released or is that just 20 transferred to a different institution? 21 MS. : Transferred to a different 22 institution -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : -- because if he got released 25 or he got a disposition, that would be EFTA00115042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 something we would place in his file, why he 2 got released. You know you got to have 3 something to show that why you released this 4 inmate, that we didn't just let him walk out 5 the door, we have this document from the 6 Marshals why we released him. 7 MR. : So would Reyes have 8 file like that? 9 MS. : If it's not sent to archives 10 and this is 2021, his file would be - his file 11 is probably archived now. 12 MR. : even though it's like - 13 my understanding was like August 9th everything 14 was going to be, like, preserved August 9th and 15 10th. Do you know if that would create it not 16 actually be archived but actually still 17 maintained somewhere? 18 MS. : You would have to get with 19 SIS, I don't know. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 22 MR. : Do you know if that court 23 list is used to update the daily log? 24 MS. : What do you mean? 25 MR. : Do you know what a daily log EFTA00115043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 is? 2 MR. : Show her. 3 MR. : Have you ever seen that? 4 MS. : Uh-huh. This is -- 5 MR. : Is that -. 6 MS. -- 38. 7 MR. : It's a what? 8 MS. : We call this a PP38. 9 MR. PP38. 10 MS. : It just tracks movement of 11 who went out the institution, who went from 12 what unit to what unit, who got keyed out. 13 This is what this is. It just tracks all the 14 movement for that day. 15 MR. : Can you flip to the third 16 page for inmate Efrain Reyes. You see next to 17 it it says, "Pre-remove." Do you know what 18 that means? 19 MS. Uh-huh. That means he was 20 removed from the institution. 21 MR. : Does that mean there's a 22 possibility that the Marshals list came over 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. -- with him as a WAB? 25 MS. : Possibility. Yeah. EFTA00115044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : What else could it - why else 2 would you list an inmate as pre-remove? 3 MS. : We don't list them as pre- 4 remove, we just key him out as pre-remove. 5 MR. : So he was keyed out at that 6 point. 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : And what time was it keyed 9 out, do you know? 10 MS. : 8:38. Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And he wouldn't be - if 12 person is going to court, what would it be 13 listed as? 14 MS. : If he's going to court on 15 this, you wouldn't see - at that time, you 16 wouldn't see that he went to court. You would 17 have to run an out count to show who was keyed 18 out to court. So, you wouldn't be able to see 19 that on this because this just tracks who came 20 into the institution, who left the institution 21 and what housing units they were transferred 22 from, whether they came out of SHU or they went 23 to SHU or they got moved from one unit, housing 24 unit, to another housing unit or if they're - 25 say an inmate got sentenced, this would show EFTA00115045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 you that he might have went from a A-pre, 2 meaning a pre-trial inmate to a hold, he might 3 have pled guilty so now he's longer a pre-trial 4 and he's waiting sentencing. So this would 5 just show you stuff like that. Or he became a 6 designated inmate and he's a BOP inmate. 7 MR. : How would you be able to see 8 the difference between an inmate that just left 9 for court and was coming back and an inmate 10 that left? 11 MR. : Or WAB. 12 MR. : WAB. 13 MS. : On this? 14 MR. : Yeah. Can you? 15 MS. : Yeah, you could just see - 16 well, you don't know, you just know that they 17 were pre-removed. So you don't know, looking 18 at this, why they were pre-removed. 19 MR. : So I guess what he means 20 though, is if someone is just going to court 21 and didn't go to court WAB versus someone who 22 went to court WAB, would they be coded 23 differently on that? 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : At all? EFTA00115046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MS. : At that time, we weren't - if 2 the inmate went to court and he was a WAB, we 3 would key him out pre-remove or hold-remove. 4 So yes, but - I'm trying to think, what did you 5 just say. Say it again. 6 MR. : So I guess, is there a 7 differentiation, if someone is WAB, are they 8 coded as pre-remove if they're just going to 9 court and they don't have WAB next to their 10 name on that form, would it just say something 11 different, like "Court?" 12 MS. : No, you wouldn't see WAB on 13 this form. You -. 14 MR. : No, no, no, I'm not 15 saying like you would see WAB on that form -- 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : I'm just saying like, 18 if an inmate goes to court, are they always 19 listed as pre-remove? 20 MS. : No, be hold-remove. 21 MR. : And what's the 22 difference? So is it either pre-remove or 23 hold-remove? 24 MS. : Or bail bond. 25 MR. : Or bail bond. And can EFTA00115047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you -. 2 MS. : Or time served. 3 MR. : Okay. So, when they're 4 leaving and - so it sounds like the latter to 5 that are totally different things. But if 6 MS. : Well, no. They could be on 7 the court list and they could appear and go out 8 to court as a court and they might get ordered 9 to time served. 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MS. : So, now, we have them on an 12 out count as going to court because we weren't 13 keying inmates physically out of the 14 institution, we were placing them on an out 15 count. So you would send them out to court as 16 a court, but if you got a disposition back from 17 the Marshals stating that, "Inmate so and so 18 was sentenced to time served," now you would go 19 back in the system and you would key him out, 20 time served. So it doesn't necessarily mean 21 that they could be on the court list as a WAB 22 because that doesn't always happen. Sometimes 23 they do get released straight from the 24 courthouse and never come back to the jail, so 25 those things do happen. EFTA00115048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 MR. : And that's what ha- so, 2 what we're trying to get to is, is there any 3 way by looking at that, we can determine if 4 Reyes, when he left at 8:38, had a WAB next to 5 his name. 6 MS. : Not from looking at this, no. 7 MR. : No? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : The only way we would be 10 able to determine that is by getting that court 11 list? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : All right. And -. 14 MS. : Because the Marshals could 15 have sent something back over and said, "Inmate 16 so and so is not coming back, he's going with 17 Probation." He could have had a court 18 appearance and he could have - it could have 19 been with his probation officer and at that 20 time, the judge could have said whatever and 21 sentenced the inmate to probation. So now, 22 he's not coming back to the institution, now 23 we've got to pre-remove him. It just all 24 depends on what happened at court and it all 25 depends on what his status was prior to going EFTA00115049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 to court, what we got far as the court list. 2 So I couldn't tell you that just by looking at 3 that. 4 MR. : When the Marshals send 5 over whatever it is they send over, did they 6 have WAB on their form? 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, if we get one of 11 those emails, it would say WAB on it. 12 MS. : At that time, it said WAB, 13 yes. 14 MR. : Okay. So that's not 15 something that you create and write WAB, they 16 actually would have it on that email. 17 MS. : Right. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Right. We don't create that 20 until we get their list. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MS. : Then that's - we go by what's 23 on their list and then we type it up and we 24 disseminate it to the housing units like that. 25 MR. : Okay. But somebody that EFTA00115050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 your - so, my understanding though is that not 2 everybody that goes to court is WAB. 3 MS. : That's correct. 4 MR. : And just to make sure 5 that we are understanding correctly on that, so 6 people that just go to court, would they also 7 be listed as pre-remove? 8 MS. : They could possibly be, yes. 9 MR. : Just possibly, but -. 10 MS. : It could possibly be because 11 the Marshals might call you and say, "Hey, we 12 got inmate so and so, he's not coming back, 13 he's going with the state," and they'll send us 14 a cut slip. Yeah. 15 MR. : No, that's after the fact 16 though, after they've already left? 17 MS. : That can possibly happen 18 after they left, yes. 19 MR. : So if we're looking at 20 this thing on Reyes where it says 8:38, is that 21 what was entered for him at 8:38 or is it that 22 could have been changed later on, the pre- 23 remove thing? 24 MS. : It just depends on what time 25 he went out. I don't know because it could EFTA00115051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 have been changed. Well, no. Well, I can't 2 tell you just by looking at this. 3 MR. : So, all right, so this 4 doesn't tell us anything? 5 MS. : It tells you that he was 6 removed from the institution. 7 MR. : At 8:38 though. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : And I guess, so - and 10 again, I -. 11 MS. : Because at one point in time, 12 how we key inmates out now is not how we were 13 keying inmates out then. We didn't key them 14 out, we just placed them on the out count. So, 15 if we keyed them on an out count, they would 16 show off of the unit population but they would 17 still be on the institutional count. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Now, how we key them out, 20 they're off the institutional count and they're 21 off the unit count. So when we key them out 22 now for court, they - it's like they never - 23 they're not here in the institution at all. 24 MR. : Okay. So for these 25 people that were on this pre-remove, does that EFTA00115052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 mean at 8:38, pre-remove, that he was taken off 2 of the institutional count? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And is there - I do see a 7 few pre-removes on there though. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Is there anybody on there 10 that went to court that wasn't listed as a pre- 11 remove? 12 MS. : I don't know. 13 MR. : You can't tell by looking 14 at that? All right. So that basically doesn't 15 tell us anything about him being WAB or not. 16 MS. : Right. I can't tell you who 17 went to court. 18 MR. : Okay. We just need to 19 get that court list. 20 MR. : So just to clarify. Some ci 21 this list as pre-remove can come back. 22 MS. : Can't? 23 MR. : Can, C-A-N, they could come 24 back to the institution. 25 MS. : If he got another charge and EFTA00115053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the Marshals brough him back. 2 MR. : But - okay. So if there is 3 pre-removed, that means he's gone. He's -. 4 MS. : He's gone. 5 MR. : He's gone. 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : And he's not expected to 8 come back? 9 MS. : Correct. 10 MR. : Okay. All right. I did 11 miss that. All right. So when you list them 12 as pre-remove, he's going to court, he's not 13 expected to come back. 14 MS. : Correct. 15 MR. : So at 8:38, Reyes was 16 gone and not expected to return. 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. Now, is the 19 Marshals supposed to send over a confirmation 20 that he's not coming back? Because you 21 mentioned something about them being keyed as 22 something different when they are officially 23 gone, like they're off the books. 24 MS. : No, this would be officially 25 off the books, a pre-remove. EFTA00115054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : But what the question was, 3 would I know at this time, was he a WAB, I 4 would only know that if I looked at the court 5 list at that time, then I can determine that, 6 "Okay, yeah, we keyed him out that way because 7 he was leaving with all his belongings," Or, 8 "No, we keyed him out that way because we got a 9 disposition later and stated that he wasn't 10 coming back." I can't just say, just by 11 looking at this, "Oh, well, we keyed him out 12 that way because he was a WAB." Now, I can 13 look at this GCT release and this full term 14 release or this treaty transfer and tell you 15 that these were guys that were getting full 16 term release from the jail and they were not 17 coming back. But - and I can also say that 18 he's not coming back, but I can't tell you why 19 he was pre-removed. I don't know the 20 circumstances of why he was pre-removed. I 21 would have to go back to his folder, look in 22 his folder, pull up his documents of why we 23 keyed him out. I can't just say, "Oh, yeah, 24 because he left with all his belongings, oh, it 25 was a court -" - I can't -. EFTA00115055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 MR. : So you can't tell that, 2 but you can tell 8:38 he left and was not 3 expected to return. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. So that's 6 basically the same thing. So, anybody that 7 knew that Reyes was gone at 8:38, like he was, 8 knew very unlikely to return. 9 MS. : Everybody don't have - 10 everybody doesn't look at this. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : So, if you don't have a 13 reason to look at this, you're not going to 14 look at this and everybody -. 15 MR. : But anybody that had the 16 - whatever reason you used to code him out like 17 that, they would have had that court list and 18 they would have had the same - they would have 19 known the reason why he was leaving though, 20 correct? 21 MS. : Right. 22 MR. : And that he wasn't 23 expected to return? 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : So, okay. So not EFTA00115056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 specifically that document, but what you used 2 to key him out, they would know. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : so, okay. So, based upon 5 the fact that he was pre-removed by III, for 6 instance, the unit he came from, the Special 7 Housing Unit, they should have known he left 8 and was very likely not returning. 9 MS. : They wouldn't know that. The 10 officers on the unit would not know that. 11 MR. : Even if they had the 12 court list and that's where they're grabbing 13 him from? 14 MS. : If the - let me tell you 15 something. I'm trying to figure out how to say 16 this. Everybody that reads a document, do not 17 know what they're reading. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Everybody that pulls up 20 SENTRY, does not know how to read a SENTRY 21 document. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MS. : So I can't say, "Yes," thr - 24 they should know that or, "No." 25 MR. : If they knew how to read EFTA00115057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the court list, they would know. 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : Got you. 4 MS. : Right. 5 MR. : Yeah, you can't certainly 6 can't say he knew that because you don't even 7 know who we're talking about. 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : But I'm just saying, like 10 the information would have been on there if 11 they knew how to interpret it. 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : we might have covered this 15 already, but if we wanted to go back and 16 retrieve that court document, like get a copy, 17 what's the best way we can do it? 18 MS. : You probably need to get with 19 the Marshals because they're the ones that 20 create that list that they sent to us in order 21 for production. 22 MR. : Are you aware if they retain 23 it or not? 24 MS. : I don't know nothing about 25 what they do with their -- EFTA00115058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : -- documents. 3 MR. : No problem. 4 MR. : No, well, she said that 5 it's emailed to everybody -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- so. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Now, after reviewing that, do 10 you know if that daily log - if the court 11 document, the court list is used to update the 12 Lieutenant's log? 13 MS. : There's - yeah, yeah. 14 MR. : And the daily log. 15 MS. : Right. 16 MR. : Okay. We covered this. And 17 the daily log, the entries that are made on it, 18 is it made at the time that it's keyed in or is 19 it - can it be edited later? 20 MS. : When you say "edited," what 21 do you mean? 22 MR. : Can someone go in a couple 23 hours later and key in saying that, "Hey, 24 listen, this person left at 8:38." 25 MS. : I don't think so because EFTA00115059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 everybody that actually - you have a certain 2 time frame to key inmates in and you have a 3 certain time frame to key inmates out. 4 MR. : And what's the time frame? 5 MS. : If inmates - but sometimes in 6 M, we don't always get to sit down at the 7 computer right then and there and key them out, 8 because we're dealing with the Marshals, 9 they're walking out with one guy, we still have 10 somebody else we might have to strip out. 11 We're still dealing with this, we're dealing 12 with the phone. When an inmate is being 13 released, you're supposed to key them out right 14 then and there, but you have up to a minimum of 15 at least, I think it's an hour or two hours, to 16 key somebody in that's coming in the 17 institution. But, like I said, just looking at 18 this, it just tells you the time he was keyed 19 out. I don't know if he was picked up earlier 20 and already taken to the courthouse, then he 21 was keyed out, pre-removed after, I couldn't 22 I can't answer that. I don't know. It's not - 23 I can't answer that. 24 MR. : Now thinking back about the 25 possibility that you were working in III that EFTA00115060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 day -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- do you recall if he was 4 removed or not that day and what time he was 5 removed? 6 MS. : I don't recall. I just know 7 that when they talked about the inmate, they 8 brought up the inmate and that's when, you 9 know, we realized, "Oh, that was the guy that 10 went to court and didn't come back." 11 MR. : Where can the daily log be 12 found or accessed? 13 MS. : This? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MS. : SENTRY. 16 MR. : And who would have access to 17 it? 18 MS. : Mainly everybody in the 19 institution. 20 MR. : Everyone can access it. Can 21 everyone make the changes on it? 22 MS. : No, you can't make changes on 23 this. 24 MR. : Who can make changes on that? 25 MS. : You cannot make changes to EFTA00115061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this. 2 MR. : So, that is basically the 3 keyed in information. 4 MS. : This is like a tracker. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : It just shows you all the 7 moves and when it was moved - when the person 8 was moved. So this, you cannot just change. 9 Only thing you can do is put in what you want. 10 It's just a log, it just pulls up a log. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : So this is not nothing you 13 can change, no. 14 MR. : What about the Lieutenant's 15 log? Who would have access to that? 16 MS. : The Lieutenants. 17 MR. : Does anyone else have access? 18 MS. : Maybe the Captain. 19 MR. : Where can it be accessed 20 from? 21 MS. : The Lieutenant's office. 22 MR. : Can it be accessed from 23 Control? 24 MS. : I don't know about now, but 25 at that time, no. EFTA00115062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if you 2 reviewed the daily log that day? 3 MS. : No, I don't remember. 4 MR. : And based on that, it shows 5 inmate Reyes is pre-remove. As per your 6 understanding, that means that he left the 7 institution and he's not coming back. 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you utilize the 10 daily log as part of your job every day? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : And how do you utilize it? 13 MS. : To make sure I key the inmate 14 out that's out of the institution. To account 15 for how many inmates I keyed out. That's what 16 I use it for in III 17 MR. : Okay. And you're not sure 18 what shift you worked but you believe that you 19 worked in III between 8:00 and 4:00 or 12:00 20 and 8:00? 21 MS. : 8:00 to 4:00 or maybe - I was 22 only working two shifts at that time. I'm 23 doing 12:00 to 8:00 now. But it might have 24 been 8:00 to 4:00 or 2:00 to 10:00. One of 25 those two hours. Between those two shifts. EFTA00115063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : Because at one point, I only 3 strictly worked the evening shift, so. 4 MR. : When inmates leave through 5 III, do you normally see them leaving through 6 MI? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Do you recall having a 9 conversation with Reyes at all? 10 MS. : I couldn't tell you if I 11 spoke to that man or not. I speak to so many 12 inmates, I don't know. 13 MR. : Well, the better question is, 14 if you (Indiscernible *00:48:06) -. 15 MS. : I couldn't even tell you what 16 he looks like. 17 MR. : That's my next question. So 18 you wouldn't happen to know who Reyes - what -. 19 MS. : I would only know who he is 20 by ID-ing him, his name and his number and his 21 ID card when he comes on down. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : There's so many inmates in 24 here. I don't know. 25 MR. : Now when did you become aware EFTA00115064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 of Reyes being moved from the MCC? Officially 2 become aware. 3 MS. : I think when he spoke about - 4 when they - when it was, you know, rumored that 5 the inmate, "Oh, they put him in a cell by 6 himself," and when I heard about that, you 7 know, it was like, "Oh, well, no, his actual, 8 his bunkie just didn't come back from court." 9 MR. : When did you hear about this? 10 Was it the same day? Was it in the evening? 11 MS. : No, it was around the time of 12 when all the commotion was going on after his 13 passing. 14 MR. : So this is the next day. 15 MS. : Pretty much, yeah. 16 MR. : Do you recall if there was 17 any conversation in regards to -. 18 MR. : What is the day of his 19 passing, the day after August 9th I think is 20 what you mean. Is that what you mean? 21 MS. : No, like, during the time he 22 passed, you know. You know, a lot of people 23 were saying, speculating though, he was a 24 suicidal person, he was placed in a cell by 25 himself and that's when, you know, it was like, EFTA00115065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 "No, well, he did have a bunkie." His cell 2 mate went out to court and that's when we all 3 became aware of, you know, who his cell mate 4 was. 5 MR. : And what conversations 6 were had with regards to the cell mate and 7 leaving for court and not coming back at that 8 time? 9 MS. : I don't think anyone was 10 pretty much aware that that was his cell mate 11 that didn't come back, so I don't - it was just 12 that the conversation was, "Oh, he was placed 13 in a cell by himself," That was what was 14 speculated. 15 MR. : Now, working in III, when 16 inmates do not come back from court, does III 17 then notify custody that these people didn't 18 come back? How does that work? 19 MS. : The Control Center tracks who 20 got keyed out. The Lieutenant, they'll track 21 who got keyed out and that's primarily it. 22 MR. So never contacts 23 either Control or the Housing Unit or the 24 Lieutenant saying, "Hey, these are people that 25 went out and these are people that came back. EFTA00115066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 These people are not coming back." 2 MS. : No. 3 MR. : So III would not have 4 notified, for instance, the SHU Saying Reyes 5 didn't come back? 6 MS. : They would be - not unless 7 they called us to say they had a bad count or 8 they had a miscount or something or maybe the 9 inmate left to court and didn't come back, but 10 no. 11 MR. : Okay. Because they - 12 lot of people have told us they usually get 13 calls from III saying, "Hey, this guy didn't 14 come back." That's -. 15 MS. : There are times that we do - 16 like if an inmate has property upstairs, we 17 might say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming 18 back, pack up his property." 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : There have been times, yes. 21 MR. : But in this case, with 22 him being pre-removed, there would have been no 23 notification that would have been made by III 24 saying, "He didn't come back?" 25 MS. : Not if we didn't need to, no. EFTA00115067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 MR. : No? So it would only be 2 a need be basis, not - because a lot of them 3 were saying, like, "Hey, he was pre-removed but 4 we don't know if he's actually, you know, 5 definitely removed and not coming back until 6 about 4:00 p.m. 7 MS. : Right. That is true. And 8 not even 4:00 p.m. because there's times that 9 the judges, the courts are late. Some inmates 10 don't come back until 7:00, 8 o'clock at night. 11 MR. : Well, they did clarify 12 that. They said, "Usually until 4:00 p.m. and 13 as late as 8:00 p.m." 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : But in those instances 16 though, III doesn't contact whomever and say, 17 "Hey, this guy didn't come back." Or is it -. 18 MS. : The only people that would 19 keep track of that would be the Control Center 20 and the Lieutenant's office. 21 MR. : Okay, so 22 MS. : You know, we key them out and 23 whatever we key out, we send down to the 24 Control Center so the Control Center has a copy 25 of who was keyed out and they kind of go in the EFTA00115068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 system and check and see if the inmates were 2 keyed out. It's like a checks and balance for 3 the institution because you might have an 4 inmate on the list showing that he left, but 5 he's not keyed out of the system. So there's 6 supposed to be like a checks and balance for us 7 upstairs as well. 8 MR. : Okay. So, when people 9 argue that they didn't know that Reyes wasn't 10 definitely coming back, how do they determine 11 and at what point do they determine, "He's not 12 back, Epstein needs a new cell mate?" 13 MS. : If they don't know he needs a 14 cell mate, nobody would know, nobody would -. 15 MR. : But if they know he needs 16 a cell mate, at what point do they say, "Yeah, 17 Reyes isn't back, we need to get him a new cell 18 mate?" 19 MS. : I couldn't tell you because 20 you don't know if that inmate - if you don't 21 know that inmate is coming back, you don't know 22 to say, "Hey, so and so needs a cell mate." 23 And if you don't know, you just don't know. 24 MR. : Okay. So, at what point 25 should Control then at some point though call EFTA00115069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 the SHU And say, "Reyes isn't coming back?" 2 MS. : If the count is not bad, they 3 wouldn't know to call them and say - they 4 wouldn't say that, no. 5 MR. : So the SHU very well may 6 never have been contacted or would have been 7 contacted saying, "Reyes isn't coming back, 8 consider him gone." 9 MS. : Correct. 10 MR. : Okay. So they would have 11 only known that based upon doing rounds and 12 counts is what you're saying? 13 MS. : Right. But if they don't 14 know that he needs a cell mate, because I don't 15 believe there was any notification that another 16 individual had to be placed in a cell with him 17 so, nobody would know that. Even if you are 18 making rounds and counting your unit, you 19 wouldn't know that we need - if there's no 20 notification. 21 MR. : Well, notifications were 22 made and the people are saying that they passed 23 it along to other shifts saying, "Yes, he's 24 required to have a cell mate." However, 25 they're saying, "Reyes is gone, possibly not EFTA00115070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 returning. Make sure you get him a bunkie if 2 he doesn't." So it's kind of like, at what 3 point does it determine -- 4 MS. : Hm. 5 MR. : -- when is Reyes not 6 getting a bunkie - when is Reyes not coming 7 home, coming back. 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : We've also been told by a 10 number of people though, they say, "III would 11 call us to say, `Yeah, Reyes isn't coming 12 back,'" but to you, you're saying, "No, that 13 doesn't happen. We don't call SHU, we wouldn't 14 have called them to say Reyes -." 15 MS. : It's a possibility we could 16 have called, but then sometimes we don't call. 17 You know, if there's a miscount, there would be 18 no reason for us to call, we would just key the 19 inmate out. Sometimes they'll call us back and 20 say, "Hey, inmate so and so went out to court, 21 is he coming back?" Some units will call us 22 and ask. 23 MR. : So they'll call you 24 rather than the other way around. 25 MS. : Sometimes they'll call us, EFTA00115071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 yep. 2 MR. : All right. 3 MS. : But the only way they'll know 4 that the inmate might - and then, because of 5 the shift change, you might have an officer 6 from these specific set of hours and then now 7 you have a new officer coming in at these 8 specific set of hours. They won't know who 9 went out to court unless they read their court 10 list or they look at their log, they probably 11 wouldn't know. And if they're doing a count 12 and their count is what it's supposed to be, 13 they won't know. 14 MR. : So you're a very unique 15 person that we're talking to as both - has both 16 sets of knowledge with the fact that you've 17 worked with custody as well as non-custody and 18 you know how these things work when people are 19 removed. If the people in the SHU knew, and 20 let's say, let's just for this example, say 21 everybody in the SHU knows -- 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- that Epstein is 24 required to have a cell mate. Reyes leaves at 25 8:30, he has a pre-removal. At what time do EFTA00115072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 you believe they should have reassigned a new 2 cell mate to Epstein? 3 MS. : Well, if they knew that he 4 was a pre-removal, then they would be trying to 5 work on that immediately as soon as possible. 6 MR. : So if -. 7 MS. : But that's if they knew. 8 MR. : So if they knew, let's 9 say -. 10 MS. : And if that was what was 11 required. 12 MR. : Let's say the OIC 13 absolutely knows he's WAB likely -- 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- not to return. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Do you believe that he 18 should have immediately then started working on 19 a new cell mate? 20 MS. : He would notify the Lieutenant 21 know, "Hey, move -" - that's what he would do - 22 23 MR. : And if -. 24 MS. -- if that was what was 25 required. EFTA00115073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 MR. : So and if their arguments 2 are, let's say the Lieutenants and the OICs are 3 arguing, "That's premature, he could always 4 return. So we pass it on to the next shift 5 saying -." 6 MS. : Well, it is premature if you 7 don't know that the inmate is not coming back. 8 MR. : In this case though, if 9 he's WAB, do you believe it's still premature? 10 MS. : No, if he is WAB, but looking 11 at this, I don't know. 12 MR. : No, no, no. 13 MS. : But 14 MR. : I'm just saying 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : -- if he was WAB. 17 MS. : If he was -. 18 MR. : So if the OIC is saying, 19 "Yeah, he was WAB, he had his brown paper bag, 20 he had all of his stuff." 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : And so think of that as 23 let's say that's what happened. 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : At that point, do you EFTA00115074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 think it's still premature or you think at time 2 it's appropriate? 3 MS. : No, if it was - okay. If it 4 was known that this inmate was leaving and he 5 wasn't coming back and if it was known that 6 this individual needed to have someone else in 7 the cell with him, then yes, at that time, it 8 would be required to replace or move him in a 9 cell with somebody else. So, yeah. 10 MR. : So when you're saying 11 "known" though, so, I mean, known that he's 12 WAB, so does that -. 13 MS. : Known that he's WAB and also 14 known that this individual requires a cell mate 15 at all time, cannot be housed alone. Now, 16 there are some inmates that have to rec in cell 17 alone and there are signs on their doors and 18 there are some inmates that might be required 19 to have a cell mate. But if there's no 20 notification, and I work a unit and this is not 21 my normal unit and I'm working this unit and 22 I'm just filling in here and there and I'm 23 working and I don't know and there's nothing 24 placed on the walls that state that or on this 25 inmate's - on the door or maybe on my EFTA00115075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 clipboard, I wouldn't know that. 2 MR. : No, no, no. So what I'm 3 saying, and I'm not talking about - I think 4 you're probably specifically talking about like 5 Tova and Michael Thomas. I'm talking about in 6 the morning at 8:38 a.m., prior to that time -- 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- they get a court list, 9 WAB, the OIC says, "Yeah, he's WAB, he's likely 10 not to return, he's got his bag, you know, I'm 11 taking him down, I'm giving him off." I know, 12 he says, "I know Epstein is required to have a 13 cell mate." 14 MS. : Oh, well, if he knows it. 15 MR. : But, is it a legitimate 16 argument in your opinion to say, "Placing 17 Epstein with a new cell mate is premature 18 because Reyes could return." Is that a valid 19 argument? 20 MS. : Well, based on what you just 21 said, knowing -- 22 MR. : With WAB and with knowing 23 24 MS. : -- knowing -- 25 MR. : -- Epstein requires, EFTA00115076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 right. 2 MS. : -- that he's WAB, that would 3 not be premature because he's leaving. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MS. : Now, if for some reason it 6 gets canceled and they say, "Hey, we're not 7 moving this inmate, we're going to move him at 8 a later time," because those things do happen. 9 His trip - he got canceled. But knowing that 10 he's going to be leaving, I don't think that 11 that would be premature, no. 12 MR. : So if he leaves at 8:38 13 in the morning and the OIC shift ends at 2:00 14 p.m., does that - is there 15 MS. : 4:00. 16 MR. : -- would he know that 17 that trip got canceled? I guess the way I 18 would be asking, he knows the guy left at 8:38 19 WAS and, I guess, by that time, I would think 20 by 2:00 p.m., if a trip got canceled they would 21 know, correct? 22 MS. : Yeah, because the inmate 23 would have went back upstairs. 24 MR. : Right. So 25 MS. : He would have went back to EFTA00115077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the unit. 2 MR. : -- how often do inmates 3 that go WAB and their trips don't get canceled, 4 how often do those inmates actually return? 5 MS. : Oh, they go upstairs 6 immediately. 7 MR. : No, no, no. So I'm 8 saying, if Reyes is listed as WAB and he left 9 at 8:30 in the morning, his trip didn't get 10 canceled by 2:00 p.m. because he never came 11 back upstairs. How often do the WAB inmates 12 actually come back to the institution? 13 MS. : It has happened with inmates 14 going on an airlift. The Marshals take inmates 15 all the way out of the institution and then 16 have to bring them all the way back. It has 17 happened. 18 MR. : And let's say if -- 19 MS. : On occasion. 20 MR. : -- out of 100 -- 21 MS. : I'll say -. 22 MR. : WABs. 23 MS. : I'll say about, if I had to 24 count, maybe about - it's happened, it's 25 happened. EFTA00115078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But I mean, does it 2 happen like very random and seldomly or does it 3 happen like, ah, one out of five times this 4 happens? Or are we talking about like one out 5 100 or one of 1,000? 6 MS. : I'll say maybe like 10 out of 7 100. 8 MR. : So about 10 percent of 9 the time it does happen? 10 MS. : It has happened, yep. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. Yep. 13 MR. : So 10 percent of the 14 time? All right. 15 MS. : It has happened. 16 MR. : So then 17 MS. : It might be something with 18 the airlift, the paperwork is not right. 19 MR. : So then -- 20 MS. : The airlift 21 MR. : -- with keeping that in 22 mind that 10 percent of the time that has 23 happened, then do you believe that is slightly 24 a valid argument to say, "Yeah, we know that he 25 needs a new cell mate but we don't think it's EFTA00115079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 appropriate to do it in this shift, it should 2 be done on the next shift when we verify he's 3 in fact not coming back." 4 MS. : Yeah. I would say that is 5 appropriate. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Because you don't know. You 8 just don't know. Anything is subject to 9 change. So I would say that is appropriate. 10 MR. : Okay. Now it's different 11 with, you're saying airlift. Now we're talking 12 about pre-remove specifically -- 13 MS. : Well, airlifts -- 14 MR. : -- for court. 15 MS. : -- could be pre-removed. 16 MR. : But what I'm saying is 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- it's WAB because the 19 person is going to court. 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Nothing to do with 22 transports getting messed up. 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : If this inmate is WAB 25 going to court, how often do the inmates going EFTA00115080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to court WAB actually return? 2 MS. : They mostly go. 3 MR. : So is it like maybe one 4 in 100? 5 MS. : Maybe one in 100 that might 6 have came back, but most of the time they go. 7 MR. : So even one in 100 is 8 like, yeah, no, they're pretty much always 9 gone? 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So then that argument of 12 13 MS. : It got to be something 14 drastic that they might have come back, but 15 most of the time they go. 16 MR. : So that argument that we 17 needed to wait until verification, that really 18 doesn't hold weight then if they know he was 19 going to court WAB. 20 MS. : If they know he was going to 21 court WAB, yeah. 22 MR. : Then the argument doesn't 23 hold weight? 24 MS. : It's a catch 22 because I've 25 seen so many things that have happened that you EFTA00115081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 might think somebody is gone and they bring him 2 back. 3 MR. : Sure. But it sounds like 4 5 MS. : He might get on that side and 6 something might come up in his paperwork where 7 they're like, "Uh-oh, we got a new case, we got 8 a new charge. Oh, we're not transferring him. 9 We got to sort this out." I mean, it has 10 happened where somebody has come back to the 11 jail, but most of the time, they do go. 12 MR. : And it sounds like that's 13 extremely rare 14 MS. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- circumstance. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : All right. 18 MS. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So at that point, do you 20 think that they should have taken action 21 immediately if they knew it was WAB? 22 MR. : WAB going to court. 23 MR. : Going to court. Knowing the 24 fact that Epstein needed a cell mate. We know 25 Reyes left, Epstein needed a cell mate. The EFTA00115082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 OIC and the SHU officers knew that he needed a 2 cell mate. Should they have taken action 3 immediately? 4 MS. : Maybe they should have 5 notified their supervisor. 6 MR. : Who would they have notified 7 if this -. 8 MS. : The SHU Lieutenant and let 9 them know that, "Hey -." 10 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:03:51) 11 no SHU Lieutenant (Indiscernible *01:03:52). 12 Should it be the Ops Lieutenant (Indiscernible 13 *01:03:55) Lieutenant? 14 MS. : The Ops or the Acting 15 Lieutenant notify, "Hey, we got bunk inmate so 16 up with so and so, he can't be housed by 17 himself." 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : But, like I said, 20 communication around here is not at its best. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MS. : So what should have happened, 23 what should have taken place, might not 24 necessarily happen because everybody doesn't 25 know everything that's going on around here. EFTA00115083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Hm. 2 MS. : Everybody does not 3 communicate the way that they should, so you 4 might know it, but just because you know it, 5 you might assume I know it and we're working 6 together. Not necessarily true. 7 MR. : Sure. And yeah, we would 8 only go off of what people tell us directly -- 9 MS. : Right. 10 MR. : Like, "Did you know 11 this?" "Yes, I knew it." "Okay." 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : You know, so 14 MS. : Because it's not - like, if I 15 was working up there, that's not my normal 16 unit. If I was working up there, I would not 17 know that. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MS. : You know, if I'm coming from 20 another department and that's not my steady 21 post, I would not know that. 22 MR. : Absolutely. 23 MS. : So, what should happen 24 MR. : Yeah, and that's why 25 we're listing people like OIC, SHU Lieutenant, EFTA00115084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 Ops Lieutenant, Activities Lieutenant, these 2 people that 3 MS. : Or maybe Psychology. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MS. : You know, so it's hard to say 6 yes and no, but if, you know, someone knew, 7 then yes. But everybody that works in this 8 institution, we're all over the place 9 sometimes. We don't know, we don't know 10 everything about every unit. So that's the 11 unfortunate part. 12 MR. : Do you recall anyone calling 13 III looking for the status of Reyes that day? 14 MS. : I don't remember, no. I'm 15 not going - I don't remember that, no. 16 MR. : What was your question? 17 MR. : Did she recall anyone from 18 the SHU calling inquiring the status of Reyes 19 that day. 20 MR. : All right. 21 MR. : Do you have anything else on 22 that topic before -. 23 MR. : I don't think so, we kind 24 of beat it. 25 MR. : Now, you worked Control EFTA00115085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August 10th night? 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : As a CO in Control, when 4 would you be notified that an inmate is being 5 removed? 6 MS. : When would I be notified -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MS. : -- that an inmate is being 9 removed? 10 MR. : Yeah, if you're working in 11 Control. 12 MS. : Well, that would be -. 13 MR. : Well, she just said 14 doesn't call them to tell them. 15 MS. : No, we give them - we send 16 them paperwork. So, you have a Control two 17 number person in the Control Center that 18 verifies our key out moves against our 19 paperwork we send them. So this is what the 20 Control Center would use as well to track -- 21 MR. : A daily log? 22 MS. -- to track the moves and 23 make sure that these individuals are keyed out. 24 So, now as a Control Center Officer, you might 25 call as the number two, I mean, I said the EFTA00115086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 number one because the number two person does 2 it. The number two person, which is an 3 accounts and assignment person, they would call 4 - this is primarily on day watch and evening 5 watch because there's no movement on morning 6 watch, not unless it's an emergency, but you're 7 not moving nobody on morning watch. So on day 8 watch and evening watch, if you see that 9 inmates were moved around or a counselor calls 10 you in Control and say, "Hey, I'm moving inmate 11 so and so from this unit to this unit," then as 12 a Control Center Officer, what I would do, I'm 13 not going to say what everybody else would do, 14 I would call over the radio, "Hey, unit 15 officers, if you lost an inmate or you gained 16 an inmate, call Control and verify your base 17 count." And I would say - they would say, "Oh, 18 inmate so and so left and I have 87." Or, they 19 might give me a wrong count. I'm like, "No, 20 that's bad, you need to check your base count, 21 verify who left the unit." But that's what I 22 would do. But most often times, the Control 23 Center Officer would look at this and see who's 24 moved and verify it with an E-1 and make sure 25 everything is accurate. EFTA00115087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : So once they are notified, 2 what would the Control Officer update that you 3 wanted? 4 MS. : We have what we call the 5 running board. So, with a running board, you 6 have the starting base of one unit and then the 7 ending base of the unit. So if an inmate went 8 out to the hospital, might have been 86, he 9 went out to hospital, 87, he came - I mean, 85, 10 he came back now, his base is back to 86. So, 11 it would be -. 12 MR. : Nothing like this. This is 13 the -- 14 MS. : Uh-huh. Yeah. 15 MR. : This is the E-1 document, is 16 this what you're talking about? 17 MS. : Uh-huh. No, that's an E-1, 18 I'm talking about a running board. It's just a 19 dummy document we create just to track all the 20 moves to like a paper to just verify the counts 21 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. -- basically checks and 24 balance. So like, if I see that this inmate 25 was moved from five, he was pre-remove, and EFTA00115088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that unit count was 85, I would just write, 2 "Inmate pre-removed," and I would have a paper 3 log of what that unit count should be. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : Because even my paper log 6 might be accurate but my computer log might be 7 wrong because this person might not have keyed 8 the inmate out. 9 MR. : So, let's talk about that. 10 Has there been situations where inmates get 11 moved around and not get keyed out? 12 MS. : Yeah. That has happened. 13 MR. : How does that happen? Isn't 14 there balance and checks to make sure that 15 nothing like that happens? 16 MS. : There are supposed to be 17 balance and checks, yes. But sometimes people 18 move inmates and they fail to report to maybe 19 the officer or they fail to notify the Control, 20 "I'm moving inmate from this unit to this 21 unit," or something might happen on a unit, an 22 inmate might get locked up and you're in the 23 Control Center, you know, you're doing whatever 24 you hear, an emergency on a unit, you don't 25 know what's going on, you don't know if the EFTA00115089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 inmate is going out to the hospital until 2 somebody actually physically calls you and say, 3 "Hey, I've got an inmate that's locked up 4 (Indiscernible *01:10:14)," or if you're not 5 looking at the camera, you see them moving this 6 inmate from this unit and walking him into SHU 7 and you'll call that unit, "Hey, you got one 8 locked - who got locked up?" You might call 9 the Unit Officer and ask those questions. So, 10 it has happened. 11 MR. : Whose responsibility would it 12 be if they're moving an inmate, to key it in? 13 MS. : To key it in? Depending on 14 what type of move it is. If it's a unit to 15 unit move, that would be the Unit Management, 16 Unit Team. If an inmate is getting locked up 17 from the unit and going to SHU, the Control 18 Center Officer might move that unit, move that 19 inmate from the unit to SHU or SHU might key 20 that inmate into SHU. So, it just depends who 21 does it. 22 MR. : So, and it can be one of 23 those things that in a situation, let's say an 24 inmate gets moved. The SHU Officer can be 25 like, "Ah, no Control will do it." And Control EFTA00115090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 Lieutenant will be like, "No, the SHU will do 2 it." Is it one person that's actually 3 responsible to make sure that it gets keyed in? 4 MS. : Well, a lot of times things 5 happen. Like I said, around here, you might 6 have a Lieutenant go to a unit and then walk an 7 inmate out and the inmate gets locked up. Or 8 you might have an inmate that's suicidal and he 9 gets placed on suicide watch so now he's not in 10 the unit, he's in suicide watch. Or you might 11 have an inmate that was taken off of suicide 12 watch, might be put in a housing unit or SHU, 13 you don't know unless somebody notifies you 14 because when you're in the Control, you're 15 answering phones, you're looking at a keypad, 16 you might be looking up and down but you're not 17 constantly on the camera so you won't know 18 unless somebody actually notifies you and say, 19 "Hey, we're moving inmate so and so." So, a 20 lot of times, you just have to - if you got an 21 inmate that you received a new inmate, call 22 Control, verify your base because you won't 23 always know everything. 24 MR. : So you're saying it should 25 have been on the SHU Officer to make sure that, EFTA00115091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 "Hey, listen, this inmate is being moved." Did 2 she even notify Control, "Hey, listen." 3 MS. : If the officer of a unit 4 knows that his inmate got locked up, he's 5 supposed to be calling Control saying, "I've 6 got an inmate that's locked up, he went to 7 SHU." SHU now needs to be calling Control, 8 "Hey, I got one, so and so on my base count." 9 Everybody is supposed to be calling. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Everybody should be calling, 12 not just -. 13 MR. : But you did just say 14 though that they - like for instance, SHU. SHU 15 can call Control and say, "Hey, I just want to 16 verify my base, what do you got?" 17 MS. : No, they wouldn't say, "I 18 want to verify my base, what do you got?" You 19 would say, "I want to verify my base, I have 20 87." And then Control would say, "No, that's 21 good, no, that's bad." 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : So now, as the officer, what 24 I would do, I would go around counting my 25 inmates in my unit and I would look at my EFTA00115092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 roster and see who went out to court. But 2 that's what I would do. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MS. : I can't say what everybody 5 else would do. 6 MR. : Yeah, no, and trust me, 7 we've talked to a lot of people and everybody 8 does things differently. 9 MS. : Yes. So. 10 MR. : That's why we're trying 11 to figure out -- 12 MS. : I like knowing -- 13 MR. : -- should they -. 14 MS. -- what I need to know on my 15 unit. I'm just nosy like that. 16 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 17 MS. : So, I want to know what's 18 going on, who is in my unit, who is coming out 19 of my unit, you know, so, I'm verifying my 20 stuff on my own. 21 MR. : Okay. No, that's a good 22 way to do it. So, are you aware of though 23 anybody calling, for instance, Control and 24 getting control? Somehow, however crafty that 25 they use their wordings to actually give them EFTA00115093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the base count? 2 MS. : I've never heard. 3 MR. : No? 4 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 5 I know of. I'm not going to say it hasn't 6 happened, but I don't know. 7 MR. : Right, right. 8 MR. : I'm going to show you some 9 documents. Before that, any document that I 10 show you, I'm going to ask you to initial and 11 date on top. 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : You're not attesting to it, 14 it's just to show that that's a document that 15 we -- 16 MS. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- showed you. 18 MS. : Right here? 19 MR. : Yeah. Just anywhere on top 20 is fine. 7/15/21. 21 MS. : I want to work with you guys. 22 MR. : Well, it sounds like you 23 got the qualification with those degrees. And 24 with the knowledge, we do a ton of BOP stuff. 25 MR. : This one too. Just the top. EFTA00115094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : It's got to be off the 2 record. 3 MR. : So, are you familiar with the 4 E-ls? Control documents? The first one that 5 I'm going to show you is this would be for 6 August 9th at 5:00 a.m. 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : Right? This is the E-1 9 document controlling - Control document. The 10 SHU shows 77 inmates. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Now, I'm going to show you 13 the daily log. Are you aware of the 14 Lieutenant's log? 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : Inmate movements? 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Okay. Now this is the day 19 watch, document is the day watch Lieutenant's 20 log for August 9th. We can start off, we'll 21 look at the inmate movements, it shows that -. 22 MR. : You need to start at 77 23 to match up with that -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : 5:00 a.m. EFTA00115095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. : So, it says 77 at the 5:00 2 a.m. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : It matches up -- 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : -- at 77, when they did the 7 count at 8:00 a.m. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : It's still at 77 with five in 10 (Indiscernible *01:15:25). 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Now, this shows at 8:38 a.m., 13 we can see Reyes was removed. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Right? Pre-remove? 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : The count comes down to 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. -- 76. Now the next movement 20 out of the SHU that we see is at 3:15 p.m. It 21 says, "Inmate Fernandez." 22 MS. : Uh-huh. Wait a minute. He 23 MR. : So, yes, there is a 24 MS. : Placed on dry cell. 25 MR. -- confusion on that. EFTA00115096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MS. : Placed on dry cell from SHU? 2 MR. : Yeah. So let's look at the - 3 so, where do you (Indiscernible *01:15:58) 4 understand, where is the dry cell? 5 MS. : I thought it was in SHU. 6 MR. : Okay. So let's look at the 7 statement up here. On top it says, "Inmate 8 Fernandez on dry cell with staff watch and 9 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : Does that clarify it for you? 12 MS. : Okay, okay. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : So at this point, inmate 16 Fernandez is removed and the count comes down 17 to -- 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : 75. 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Okay. Now we're looking at 22 the 5:00 p.m. count for August 9th. 23 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 24 MR. : Or 4:00 p.m., sorry. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count for August 2 9th. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : Right. It shows 76 -- 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : -- starting. Reyes is 7 removed, right? Reyes is removed. Epstein is 8 sitting in attorney conference? 9 MS. : Uh-huh. Yes, that's right 10 here. 11 MR. : Right here? And inmate 12 Fernandez is removed. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : But it still shows 75. It 15 should have been 74. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. This is - they got 17 76. This is 4 o'clock. Did they say 18 something? 19 MR. : And this is removed inmate. 20 MR. : Keep on showing her the 21 other one though 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- because that's not 24 really that -- 25 MR. : Give me Fernando's. EFTA00115098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 MR. : -- that's not really that 2 eye opening because that's 3:15 to 4:00. Now 3 show her the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight count. 4 MR. : The next one is over here 5 too, there's some inmates that moved in and 6 out. Now let's go to the 10:00 p.m. count. 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : And go over the inmates 9 that - so you can follow the numbers. 10 MR. : So just look at -. 11 MS. : Pull my chair closer so I can 12 see that. 13 MR. : Yeah. Is that better? 14 MS. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Now, this is the evening 16 watch document. The other sheet now if you 17 start looking at inmate Hemmingway, 6:34 p.m., 18 he's removed from the SHU, goes to ES. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : Right? And the next one is 21 inmate Reed gets moved from ZA to GS. 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : So, now we lost two more 24 inmates, that's 73. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 MR. : Then we gain two inmates, the 2 SHU gains two inmates, 8:21, Felix and Williams 3 from ZA to suicide watch in the SHU. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Right? 6 MS. : Wait a minute. From ZA 7 MR. : Sorry, sorry. 8 MS. : No, so he came from SHU. 9 MR. : From SHU to suicide watch, so 10 now we are down to 71. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Right? And then, we have 13 Garcia. 14 MS. : Wait, I'm sorry. Hold on. 15 This is 70, that's one, that's another one, 16 (Indiscernible *01:18:24), okay, that's III. 17 One, two - okay, I see why it's two. Okay, 18 that's two, right? 19 MR. : That's two. And then, you 20 see -. 21 MS. : So it's the suicide watch, 22 right? 23 MR. : Yeah. And you see one inmate 24 was gained -- 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- Garcia Pena's moved over. 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : I'm going to show you the 4 10:00 p.m. count. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. count on the 7 E-1, what does that show? 8 MS. : 73. 9 MR. : Okay. On the last couple of 10 pages, can you find the one for ZA? ZA would 11 be the SHU, right, the count slip? 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : What does it show? 14 MS. : 73 at 10:00. Uh-huh. 15 MR. : But 73 what? 16 MS. : Plus one. 17 MR. : What does that plus one mean? 18 MS. : That means somebody was 19 there, plus one. So it's somebody that's there 20 but he's, I guess he's not accounted for but 21 he's there. 22 MR. : But can you, by looking at 23 this document, can you figure out who that is? 24 MR. : So does that mean, what 25 you're saying is 73 plus one is actually 74 EFTA00115101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that they're thinking that's in there? 2 MS. : Uh-huh. Not unless - well, 3 normally what it is, is -. 4 MR. : Before you start asking 5 that that question, just show her the other 6 thing so that she's not going to try to figure 7 this out backwards. Let her reverse engineer 8 it. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And then explain to her 11 what happened and then let her answer those 12 questions. 13 MR. : I'm going to show you the 14 12:00 p.m. count too. This is 12:00 a.m. 15 count, there's August 10th -- 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : 12:00 a.m. count. Now, were 18 you working in Control at that time? 19 MR. : That was when 20 you said the -- 21 MR. -: 22 MR. : Ops Lieutenant 23 actually took the count, but you were on duty 24 at that time. 25 MR. : Do you recall that at all? EFTA00115102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I don't remember at the 2 moment, but I know I worked in Control that 3 day. I know she came in there and she took one 4 count. 5 MR. : Were you present when she 6 took that count? 7 MR. : I think you start at 8 12:00 a.m. in Control, right? 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : You're 12:00 a.m. 11 MR. : 12:00 a.m. until -. 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : So, on this one 14 MR. : So by looking at that, 15 can you tell who it was that took the count? 16 That's the E-1. 17 MS. : That's somebody's signature. 18 That's not - that's somebody else. That might 19 be her signature. 20 MR. 21 MS. : Uh-huh. It might be her 22 signature, but that's not -- 23 MR. : So we can tell you 24 MS. : -- the person that prepared 25 it. EFTA00115103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. took 2 that count. We'll just let you - so she took 3 the count. 4 MS. Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Do you remember being 6 present that day when she was there taking the 7 count? 8 MS. : I was present, yes. 9 MR. : All right. Now show her 10 the numbers verse what the counts looks at. 11 MR. : So, E-1 shows 72. 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : What does the ZA show? 14 MS. : 73. 15 MR. : You see a discrepancy? 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Is that a good count to you? 18 MS. : Huh-uh. 19 MR. : Do you recall 20 mentioning the fact that there was a 21 discrepancy in the count? 22 MS. : I don't recall any of that, 23 no. 24 MR. : Do you recall her -. 25 MS. : Because I didn't prepare the EFTA00115104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 count, so, I didn't - if I'm the Control 2 Officer, I'm Control one, so my second body is 3 the one that's preparing the counts and taking 4 the counts and viewing the count slips with the 5 Lieutenant is not there. I'm in charge of the 6 radios, they keys, you know, like a count and 7 making sure that all my equipment is accounted 8 for, letting staff know, "Hey, we're on duty." 9 We got to do a PREA-announcement and going over 10 equipment and stuff, all those type of things, 11 so no, I didn't - I wouldn't be aware of this 12 if I didn't prepare it, no. 13 MR. : So what happened? Was 14 figured out - and this is where 15 we were hoping you can help us a little bit. 16 And she figured out that Fernandez, who was 17 placed on dry cell at 3:15, was never keyed out 18 of the SHU. 19 MS. : Ah. 20 MR. : However, they're still 21 reporting - because he was never keyed out, 22 they're still reporting 73, 73, 73 -- 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- although there's only 25 72 inmates in the SHU. EFTA00115105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. somehow 3 figures out, you guys don't have 73, you've got 4 72 and then either she or someone in Control or 5 whomever, keys him out. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And so what we want to 8 know is do you remember that happening or the 9 circumstances around that? 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : No, you don't? Does this 12 tell you anything about if these counts were 13 conducted? The 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. 14 and the 12:00 a.m.? 15 MS. : This just shows that this was 16 conducted. 17 MR. : No, not the E-ls, the 18 counts in the SHU. 19 MR. : Count slips. If the counts 20 were wrong. 21 MR. : So all of them are saying 22 73 all though there's only 72 people. 23 Fernandez leaves at 3:15. So knowing that you 24 work in SHU, you work in III 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 MR. : -- and also you can look 2 at the -. 3 MS. : Well -. 4 MR. : So these III slips show 5 that there's one person in there. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Although - 8 MS. : This is 9 -. 9 MR. : Nine south. 10 MR. : So what does that mean? So 11 so on this here, the midnight one, right? 12 MR. : And also, just please 13 take note of the checks that are all over them. 14 There's no checks on these two. So, and that's 15 the 10:00 p.m. we're looking at. So, we're 16 just trying to piece this thing together. 17 MS. : Normally, I'm just going to, 18 for my experience, when I've had to plus a one, 19 it's because it's a WITSEC inmate that we could 20 not key in because only certain individuals 21 have the authority and capacity to key those 22 individuals in. So, if I got an inmate in SHU 23 that's a WITSEC and staff can't key him in 24 until maybe the Unit Manager of the WITSEC Unit 25 comes in and keys him in or whatever unit team EFTA00115107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 of the WITSEC Unit, we would plus that one 2 because that would show that that's the body 3 that's there that we cannot account for but 4 he's there. That would have - I don't know 5 what this is. 6 MR. : Do you recognize whose 7 handwriting that is? The 9S plus one? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Do you know if it's yours 11 by chance? 12 MS. : No, that's -. 13 MR. : Definitely not yours? My 14 assumption is that was written at midnight, but 15 we still can't figure it out. That's what 16 we're still trying to figure out. We would 17 have thought that the plus one stuff would have 18 happened at the 10:00 p.m. count since we 19 believe that that's when Reyes was keyed in. 20 he was keyed in on the 10th for the 9th because 21 - not Reyes, I'm sorry, Fernandez. 22 MS. : Normally, when a Lieutenant 23 checks off the slips, it's because they're 24 verifying that it's the unit, it's the accurate 25 count, it's the accurate date, time and staff EFTA00115108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 signature print of two staff members. That's 2 normally how Lieutenant would mark off a count 3 slip to verify that -. 4 MR. : I want to show - so does -. 5 MR. : Is that telling to you at 6 all that the fact that these aren't checked 7 off? 8 MS. : I don't know why they aren't 9 checked off. I couldn't tell you why, I don't 10 know. 11 MR. : But those plus ones, 12 aside from possibly a WITSEC type of thing, 13 would that make sense with whether it would be 14 a plus one on III and a plus one though on ZA? 15 MS. : Minus - not unless there - 16 the only thing I can gather is that they're 17 saying that this plus one is the inmate that's 18 still keyed to SHU but is sitting in III 19 That's the only thing -. 20 MR. : And that would be my 21 assumption too. IS that they're saying there's 22 73 bodies in SHU plus one who's actually in 23 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : But that 73 is still off EFTA00115109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 so I guess what the question would be is, the 2 fact that they're using the number that Control 3 has, although they only have 72 in their actual 4 housing unit. 5 MS. : Can I just -- 6 MR. : Absolutely. 7 MS. read this again. 8 MR. : It also tells us that - 9 or I won't say what it tells us, but I just 10 want to know what it tells you. 11 MR. : Which one do you need? 12 MS. : Yeah, I don't see -. 13 MR. : It's the midnight one. 14 MS. : Okay, now you had gave me - 15 you had another log. 16 MR. : The 5:00 p 17 MS. : Didn't you have two logs? 18 MR. : So there was another one, but 19 that's -. 20 MR. : There's the August 10th 21 log. Okay. 22 MR. : But I didn't show you the 23 August 10th. 24 MS. : No, you showed me something 25 with Lieutenant Perez. EFTA00115110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE li 1 MR. : I know, that's in one 2 MS. : Oh. 3 MR. : -- but this is evening watch. 4 MS. : Oh, okay. 5 MR. : This -. 6 MS. : Oh, that's the same. Okay. 7 MR. : Yeah. So -. 8 MS. : All right. I just want to -. 9 MR. : There's a day watch and 10 night. 11 MR. : You sure, you're getting 12 awful close. 13 MR. : I'm okay. Unless she says I 14 need it. 15 MR. : Would you like a piece? 16 MS. : Okay, so his ending was 72 17 and he has this guy up here and this is 10 18 o'clock. This is the 9:00. 19 MR. : So you want the 10:00 p.m. 20 count? 21 MS. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Here's the 10:00 p.m. count. 23 MS. : Okay. So this is the 10 24 o'clock count. Okay, so, he's not keyed into 25 III. So, this is where your plus one is. So EFTA00115111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 he's still showing in Special Housing but he's 2 in III during the 10 o'clock count. So this is 3 what makes your 73. This is the 10 o'clock? 4 MR. : But is that also weird 5 though that this count cleared with an III 6 slip. 1 that's never checked off. There's 7 nothing on the E-1 for III? 8 MS. : Hm, okay this is acting on 9 way before clock one. 10 MR. : Before clock one, the one 11 we initially showed you where 12 MS. : Okay. 13 MR. : -- he's also never keyed 14 in. And it is our belief, per the person who 15 said that they keyed him in, it was done after 16 midnight. 17 MS. : Hm. 18 MR. : Are you allowed to count an 19 inmate that you can't see? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : If inmate Fernandez was moved 22 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., who should have 23 counted him as part of their count slip? 24 MS. : At 3:15? 25 MR. : Yeah, he was moved at 3:15 EFTA00115112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 and the 4:00 p.m. count was a SHU that should 2 have counted him on the count slip or was it 3 supposed to be III? 4 MS. : Well, to be honest with you, 5 because I work in III and I'm going to tell you 6 what goes on, they drop inmates in there and 7 they don't - a lot of the times, staff - that's 8 why now we tell them, "Tell us what you're 9 bringing inmates down here for." Because they 10 would bring an inmate down and place that 11 inmate in a cell. You won't know because 12 you're busy dealing with the Marshals, you're 13 dealing whatever movement you have going on in 14 III and you won't know that they brought an 15 inmate down in a cell. So, it could work both 16 ways that, you know, maybe they figured they 17 were just going to place him down there, keep 18 him down there and then maybe bring him back 19 upstairs. So, it could have been a number of 20 things, but I just know from experience, 21 inmates have been brought into my III that we 22 weren't aware of and we realized, walking 23 around III, "Yeah, we got an inmate in here." 24 "What is he down here for?" So -. 25 MR. : So this, for me EFTA00115113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 personally, the E-1 isn't as concerning on the 2 4:00 p.m., although 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- the count slip is. 5 Because the R&- it was so close to the 4:00 6 p.m. count. It's -- 7 MS. : So -. 8 MR. : -- to the 10:00, this is 9 where I start getting like -. 10 MS. : So, on -. 11 MR. : Because there is no III 12 count slip although there's an III count slip 13 in this one that's never checked off, but it 14 also has no E-1 notification. So that -. 15 MS. : And -. 16 MR. : And to me, it seems like 17 the count slips were created after the fact or 18 manipulated or deleted or something, I don't 19 know. 20 MS. : I don't know neither. 21 MR. : So let 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : As he mentions 24 MS. : Wait a minute. I just want 25 to see. So at 4 o'clock they had 75. EFTA00115114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 MR. : But technically at that 2 point, they were missing three inmates. Reyes 3 had gone, Fernandez was moved and Epstein was 4 sitting in attorney conference. 5 MR. : Yeah. And it doesn't -. 6 MS. : Well -. 7 MR. : For which 8 MS. : Okay, but where's attorney 9 conference? Oh, here it is. So, this is 10 attorney conference right here. This is the 11 counselor for attorney conference. 12 MR. : That would say, SATTY on top. 13 Okay. 14 MS. : Yes. So this is attorney 15 conference. 16 MR. : Right, that's the one. 17 MS. : This is all the inmates out 18 to court with Southern District. Is it? 19 MR. : So yeah, physically 20 present -- 21 MS. : So -. 22 MR. : -- in the SHU at 4:00 was 23 the 75 although -- 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : I mean 74. EFTA00115115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Not (Indiscernible 2 *01:33:26). 3 MR. : Although they reported 75 4 because Fernandez -- 5 MS. : Okay, well you -- 6 MR. : -- was (Indiscernible 7 *01:33:31). 8 MS. : -- Epstein accounted for in 9 attorney conference. But this is an out count. 10 MR. : Correct. 11 MS. : And he's keyed on the out 12 count and this is what shows where he is 13 actually sitting in key two at that time so 14 this shows that he's in attorney conference. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MS. : Because he's keyed out on the 17 out count to attorney conference. And what i 18 was expressing to you guys earlier about the 19 courts, how we used to do it, (Indiscernible 20 *01:34:01) maybe it's a couple (Indiscernible 21 *01:34:02). Okay, this is what we used to do 22 in III as far as the out count. So, this would 23 say the inmate out to court, name, register 24 number, what unit and cell he came from and how 25 many from whatever his unit is. So if we had EFTA00115116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 three out from that unit to court, it would be 2 three or whatever, however many numbers and 3 this is how we would - this is what would show 4 in the system that the inmate went out to court 5 that day. 6 MR. : And that's an inmate you're 7 expecting back? 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : So if Reyes is not on there, 10 does that mean that Reyes is gone and you're 11 not expecting him back? 12 MS. : Well, if he was keyed out at 13 8 - what did that say, 8:33? 14 MR. : 8:38, yeah. 15 MS. : Then he wouldn't show up on 16 this as an out count because that means he's 17 keyed out. 18 MR. : He's gone, okay. 19 MS. : Right. So -. 20 MR. : So people that are going 21 to court that are expected to come back would 22 be on that sheet. 23 MS. : Right. But we don't - 24 MR. : But Reyes was not 25 expected to come back. EFTA00115117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 MS. : Right. And from the looks of 2 this, I didn't work that shift. That wasn't my 3 shift. 4 MR. : Yeah, no, and we didn't 5 believe it was. We're -. 6 MR. : You might have left 7 beforehand? 8 MS. : I might have left - this 9 might have been the day shift and I might have 10 worked the evening shift, so I might have 11 worked - I don't even know. But I just know 12 that I wasn't dealing with the courts, the 13 movement at that time, just from looking at the 14 out count. 15 MR. : Okay. So now that we know 16 that the count was off over here and that the 17 10:00 p.m. count, according to the Lieutenant's 18 log, says 72, but 10:00 p.m. says 73 plus one - 19 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. -- right, and now 22 actually is reporting that there is an inmate 23 in there 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- except they're still EFTA00115118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 reporting 73 plus one. 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : And then at midnight - where 4 is the - midnight it says 72 over here and the 5 count slip shows 73. What does that tell you 6 about the counts that were done in the SHU? 7 MR. : What he's asking, if 8 there's only 72 people in there and they're 9 reporting 73 and it just so happened to 10 coincide. And this one - and you need to know 11 that background information. 12 MS. : Okay, so this is what - 13 MR. : They reported 73 and the 14 Ops Lieutenant who took the count, found out it 15 was actually only 72, made the change and 16 changed Reye- and keyed Fernandez out. 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : So what is asking 19 you is the fact that they reported 73 on all 20 these, does that indicate anything to you about 21 the counts if they were done or were they not 22 done? 23 MS. : Yeah, this looks like someone 24 wasn't paying attention because this - what 25 does this look like to you? EFTA00115119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : Well, that's what I was 2 going to ask. What is RA? That -. 3 MS. : RA is where that guy was 4 sitting at on dry cell. 5 MR. Is that III? 6 MS. : Yes. So he was - so, because 7 it's now the 12 o'clock count and it's prior to 8 the count, they can go ahead and key him in 9 where he's actually assigned. So it seems that 10 during the 10 o'clock count, he was still keyed 11 to SHU so, what was it, plus one or something? 12 So now at 12 o'clock, because he wasn't keyed 13 there at 10 o'clock, they keyed him there now 14 before the 12 o'clock count which is correct 15 and accurate and what they should have done, 16 but now he's plus one - he's here where he 17 should be where he stated on this notification, 18 right, so that's accurate. But, if he's no 19 longer here, they should have been putting 20 what's here. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MS. : Because he's not plus one up 23 there no more. 24 MR. : Yeah. So this one is 25 clearly that they're off. These guys though, EFTA00115120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 are still even with that 73 plus one, it should 2 have been 72 plus one if they're trying to say, 3 "We got one outside." It shouldn't be 73 plus 4 one. They're utilizing the same number it 5 looks like on the E-1. Somehow it seems that 6 they had that number, that base count number 7 and they knew, "We need - this is the number we 8 need to report, but also we got a plus one over 9 in n 10 MS. : Right 11 MR. : So they're still off on 12 their count. Does that indicate to you that 13 they didn't actually conduct the count, they 14 just used the number that they thought they 15 were supposed to report? 16 MS. : It doesn't indicate that they 17 didn't count. 18 MR. : Because if they counted - 19 20 MS. : I -. 21 MR. : -- wouldn't they have the 22 right number? 23 MS. : Sometimes you can count stuff 24 25 MR. : But wouldn't it be really EFTA00115121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 coincidental if they miscount at the exact 2 number that they were supposed to actually 3 provide? They definitely miscounted, but 4 there's 72 people in there and they just happen 5 to miscount exactly what the E-1 shows that 6 they were supposed to count. 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : It's coincidences and the 9 fact that it happened twice in a row, what does 10 that tell you? 11 MR. : No, three times in a row. 12 MR. : Three times. 13 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 14 MR. : That's right. 15 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 16 a.m. 17 MS. : I'm not going to answer that. 18 MR. : Well, based on your 19 experience, right? You're experience of 20 working in Control, working in III, what do you 21 think happened? Do you think that they did the 22 count or not? 23 MS. : I'm not going to answer that 24 one. 25 MR. : How would have they EFTA00115122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 gotten that number that they were supposed to 2 report? 3 MS. : By probably just looking in 4 their log and seeing, "Okay, when you take over 5 my post, oh, we got 72 guys. One is in III but 6 they still got him keyed to our unit." Based 7 on maybe what someone told them. 8 MR. : And when you worked in 9 the unit at midnight, do you remember this 10 being an issue at all? Because this is where 11 we're told the Ops Lieutenant who took the 12 count, , she -- 13 MS. : She had -. 14 MR. : -- had to run around and 15 try to figure this thing out. She's the one 16 who had to like come in and say like, "Okay, 17 where - who's what, where and I can verify 18 this." Do you remember that at all? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Do you remember any 21 telephone calls with the SHU saying, "You got a 22 bad count, you got to recount?" 23 MS. : No, if she's taking the 24 count, I let her deal with it. I don't - I 25 work on whatever else. EFTA00115123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : Okay. So you're not 2 actually involved with her while she's doing 3 it? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 6 have been, being that you came from III, you 7 wouldn't have been the person that she said, 8 "Can you verify with III that this person is 9 there?" 10 MS. : If she asks me and that's 11 what I did then, but I don't recall that. 12 MR. : You don't recall -- 13 MS. : I don't know anything about 14 that. 15 MR. : -- doing that? Okay. 16 MS. Huh-uh. 17 MR. : You don't remember at all 18 though in that specific - you do - did you 19 recall her being there at all? 20 MS. : Yeah, she was there. 21 MR. : So you remember her being 22 in Control Center? 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : And you -. 25 MS. : Because she also made rounds EFTA00115124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 on the units. She walked around the 2 institution. 3 MR. : All right. And then as 4 far as being keyed in and out, so I guess it's 5 he BP-38, would that show when Fernandez was 6 actually keyed in and out of the system on 7 August 10th? 8 MS. : Fernandez? The guy from -. 9 MR. : So Fernandez, 3:15, who 10 was never -- 11 MS. : Oh, the -. 12 MR. : -- keyed out. He wasn't 13 keyed out. 14 MS. : The dry cell guy? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MS. : Yeah, it would show on a 38. 17 MR. : On the 38 it would 18 actually show what time? 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : And how do we get that? 21 So just make a note, we got to get the 38 for 22 MR. : That (Indiscernible 23 *01:41:43). 24 MS. : Since it goes back -- 25 MR. : That's the same document I EFTA00115125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 showed you? 2 MS. only 45 days. 3 MR. : Okay. So we wouldn't 4 even be able to get it at this point? 5 Hopefully that day maintained that. 6 MS. : Well, SENTRY only goes back 7 45 days, so 8 MR. : You're talking about this 9 document? 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Now what if they did save 12 these documents back then, would we be able to 13 see when he was keyed in? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MS. : If they saved it, yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : But if it's 18 MR. : And -. 19 MS. : -- not saved, it only goes 20 back 45 days. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : All right, I got. 23 MR. : So that will be very 24 telling as well if we can get that. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : Before you start taking 2 everything away, there's an issue with initials 3 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- and dates. 6 MR. : Being that I showed you these 7 8 MR. : Just the top. 9 MR. : -- documents, same as before. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Can you just initial and date 12 the top? 13 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:42:27) 14 this one. 15 MR. : Do you know anything 16 about counts not actually being conducted at 17 this time in August of 2019? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : When you would work on 20 the custody side of the house, would you be 21 involved in things like counts? 22 MS. : If I'm counting a unit with 23 an officer, yeah. Or if I'm the one taking the 24 count, yes. If I'm -. 25 MR. : Did you ever do any EFTA00115127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 counts in the SHU? 2 MS. : I've done counts in the SHU - 3 4 MR. : You have. 5 MS. : -- but -. 6 MR. : And when you were there, 7 did they actually conduct the counts? 8 MS. : When I do counts, I conduct 9 counts, yeah. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, but I mean, 11 I'm not talking about you, I know you did, but 12 I mean -- 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : -- the people that were 15 there with you, were they actually, you know, 16 you're supposed to have two people to count. 17 Was the other person -- 18 MS. : Well, if I -- 19 MR. : -- also counting? 20 MS. : -- have - if I'm working, 21 you're counting, so it's no - it's not a 22 question. We're not even having that 23 conversation, so. 24 MR. : Did you ever have anybody 25 push back on you like, "No, no, no, we're EFTA00115128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 good?" 2 MS. : No. 3 MR. : Have you heard of people who 4 when they're starting the shift, just filling 5 out the counts slips and the round sheets and 6 be like -. 7 MR. : Ahead of time. 8 MR. : Ahead of time. 9 MS. : Well, if they're on their own 10 unit, I can't tell you what they're doing on 11 their unit. I can only tell you what I'm doing 12 on my unit, so. 13 MR. : But like in the SHU, have 14 you ever heard of like people coming in and 15 pre-filling out both count slips and round 16 sheets at the very start of their shift? 17 MS. : If they've done it, I've 18 never seen it. 19 MR. : You've never seen it? 20 MR. : Have you ever heard of people 21 doing anything like that? 22 MS. : I've heard of it, but I don't 23 - I've never seen it. 24 MR. : Is that good practice? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00115129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : Is it known that you 2 can't do that? 3 MS. : You're not supposed to do 4 that. 5 MR. : Does everyone know they 6 can't - especially if we're talking about round 7 sheets. Does everyone know that you can't go 8 and - say it goes from 8:00 a.m. until 12:00 9 p.m., you can't go in at 8:00 a.m. and write 10 out everything you did for a round all the way 11 to 12:00 p.m.? 12 MS. : You cannot do that because 13 anything can happen. An emergency can take 14 place. An inmate could get removed from your 15 unit. You can get a new guy. Any - there's a 16 number of things that could take place that you 17 are not supposed to - even your log book, pre- 18 fill out your log. 19 MR. : Is there any training 20 though that you all receive saying like, "You 21 got to do this when you're actually conducting 22 the rounds?" And certainly, you know, maybe 23 after the fact is okay because you already did 24 it, but beforehand -. 25 MS. : Maybe if the Lieutenant sees EFTA00115130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 it, you know, they might say, "Hey, you know, 2 you're not supposed to pre-fill out your count 3 slips." They might say, you know, "You can 4 fill out the date, the time, the unit," you 5 might could even fill in your name, but you're 6 not supposed to put in the actual number 7 because you don't know what can happen, so. 8 MR. : But as far (Indiscernible 9 *01:45:26) talking about counts slips, I'm 10 talking about round sheets. 11 MS. : Oh. No, you're not supposed 12 to. They always tell - they - the Lieutenants 13 always say that you're not supposed - they 14 always tell everybody that. 15 MR. : And do you know if back 16 in August 2019, they were also saying that? 17 MS. : No, I don't know about that. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MS. : I don't know -. 20 MR. : And is there any training 21 that's provided to teach people how to actually 22 fill out round sheets and counts slips or is it 23 supposed to be common sense? 24 MS. : Normally you're training on 25 the job as you go along, so if I'm new and, you EFTA00115131 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 know, I'm training up under your officer, you 2 might show me certain things and people just 3 learn by asking questions and maybe another 4 officer just showing him ropes and everybody 5 don't do everything the way they're supposed to 6 do so. I might come in as a new officer and 7 you might be showing me stuff and it could be 8 completely wrong, but I'm doing what you showed 9 me because that's all I know. So, it just 10 depends on who's training who and who's showing 11 who what to do and that's pretty much it 12 because on the job, right now, we have new 13 staff training new staff. We have staff that's 14 here like a month training staff that's here a 15 week. So, the blind leading the blind. 16 MR. : So if someone makes the 17 excuse that, "No one ever told me I could do 18 that, but I saw other people filling out round 19 sheets ahead of time so that's why I did it," 20 is that an excuse do you believe? So you think 21 that that is an actual excuse to say like, 22 "Well, he did it, so I did it," and that makes 23 it okay? Because don't you think it's pretty 24 common sense that, no, you can't - you're 25 certifying a document saying you conducted that EFTA00115132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 round at that time? 2 MS. : Yes, common sense to the 3 people that think outside the box and - but 4 common sense is not common to everybody and 5 and I'm not trying to be a smart ass -- 6 MR. : No, no, no, it's very -. 7 MS. you know. 8 MR. : It's a good point. 9 MS. : And, you know, I've been 10 doing law enforcement for a while, you know, 11 corrections, juveniles, school safety. So, 12 I've seen things on the job that make me take 13 my job seriously. But when you have no 14 knowledge, you have no experience, no 15 correctional background, you've never been 16 placed in an environment that you felt was that 17 dangerous for you to be as mindful as you 18 should be, you don't - and then nothing 19 happens, you follow what you see everybody else 20 doing in past practice and it's not always 21 right and a lot of people don't read what 22 they're supposed to be doing, they just go by 23 what you tell them and what I could tell you 24 what to do, doesn't necessarily mean that 25 that's actually what you are supposed to be EFTA00115133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 doing. 2 MR. : Sure. 3 MS. : And if you don't read it in 4 black and white for yourself, how would you 5 know that this is actually what you should be 6 doing? And it's just a lack of training around 7 here. Staff are not being trained and that's 8 what creates a lot of our problems. We don't 9 have a bad institution, we just have a lack of 10 training, you know, and I don't think that 11 people are not willing to work, I think they 12 want to work, but it's a lack of training and 13 it's a lack of morale in the institution, so I 14 think that's what the biggest problem is. 15 People are not being properly trained. So, 16 yeah, if I see you doing it, I think it's okay. 17 I'm not ever thinking, "Oh, you know what? 18 Maybe I shouldn't do that, something might 19 happen." If nothing ever really happens, so. 20 MR. : I have a few more questions 21 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- a few more, but we can 24 come back. Some of the questions are going to 25 be redundant -- EFTA00115134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. -- redundant because we asked 3 the questions -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- so I just got to cover it. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Do you know why Reyes was 8 removed from the MCC? 9 MS. : Is that the guy that went out 10 to court? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MS. : I would only know that 13 because he went to court. But looking at that 14 document, off the top of my head, I wouldn't be 15 able to recall off the top of my head why he 16 was removed, but I just know he went out to 17 court. 18 MR. : Were you ever instructed on 19 what actions to take -. 20 MR. : Well, let's follow up 21 with that. Looking at the Lieutenant's log, 22 does that tell you something different? With 23 the Lieutenant's log and the BP-38? 24 MS. : You mean the PP-38. 25 MR. : Is it PP? EFTA00115135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : All right. I thought it 3 was like Bureau of Prisons, like BP. So it's 4 PP. 5 MR. : Somebody -. 6 MS. : PP. PP-38. 7 MR. : What does the PP stand 8 for? 9 MS. : It's a SENTRY function. I 10 don't know. Okay. Repeat your question again. 11 MR. : So looking at where it 12 says that Reyes left at -- 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- 8:38, and then as well 15 as with that document the III uses to key 16 people out, the PP-38. Does that tell you why 17 he would have left? 18 MS. : No, because this does not 19 necessarily tell you. It just tells you he was 20 removed out of the institution. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : So, no - I mean, you just 23 know that he's gone. You don't know why he's 24 gone, you just know he left. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00115136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MS. : And same thing with that, you 2 just - you don't know why, you just know he 3 left. 4 MR. : Okay. You're talking about 5 the PP-38, right? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : How would the institution 8 know if Reyes was coming back from court? 9 MS. : would know because he 10 would come back with the Marshals and we would 11 key him back in and we would send him back to 12 his unit. 13 MR. : Now, if he wasn't - now that 14 he wasn't coming back, is there any other 15 notification that comes up throughout the day 16 through III that he isn't coming back? 17 MS. : It would just be whatever 18 dispositions that the Marshals give us, provide 19 us with. 20 MR. : When does that disposition 21 come? 22 MS. : That just depends. Sometimes 23 we get it right away, sometimes they forget and 24 we got to pre-remove the inmate out because we 25 don't have nothing and we know that he went EFTA00115137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 with the Marshals. But sometimes we get it as 2 soon as possible and sometimes we don't get it 3 until the next day. 4 MR. : So there is a disposition 5 form that comes in afterwards. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : What is it? What does the 8 form look like? What does it state on it? 9 MS. : It's just a United States 10 Marshals form and it'll say, "Disposition of 11 - it'll be time served, maybe the judge 12 released somebody on recognizance. Just 13 whatever the judge just might - the judge might 14 have dismissed the case. Just whatever 15 happened at court is what will be - it might be 16 a bail bond. Might be a release to Probation. 17 MR. : And where is that form kept? 18 MS. : It would be in the inmate's 19 folder. 20 MR. : Do you recall seeing any 21 forms for - disposition forms for inmate Reyes? 22 MS. : I don't remember. 23 MR. : And what is done with 24 that information once it's received? 25 MS. : We retain it in the inmate's EFTA00115138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 folder and we key the inmate out and 2 MR. : Or is the information 3 disseminated throughout or no? 4 MS. : Do we give Control those? 5 No, we don't give Control a copy. I don't 6 think we give Control a copy of the disposition 7 form because they - we don't give them a copy 8 of it. 9 MR. : So this circles back to 10 what we talked about before. So once you find 11 out an inmate is definitively not coming back, 12 you do not contact anyone to say, "This guy 13 didn't come back." 14 MS. : We key them out and normally 15 the Control Officer, if you have a good counts 16 and assignments officer, and he's paying 17 attention, he'll say, "Oh, you guys keyed one 18 out?" We'll say, "Yeah, he's not coming back, 19 he got time served or the Marshals took him and 20 he's not coming back." 21 MR. : The III doesn't 22 proactively provide that information. 23 MS. : No, because they're supposed 24 to automatically be checking the computer to - 25 like a checks and balance, so it's something EFTA00115139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 that's automatic. When we have inmates going 2 out to court, we have a receipt that we give to 3 the Marshals and a copy also goes downstairs to 4 the Control Center as well, so the Control has 5 a copy of every move we do in III, so they get 6 a copy of that. 7 MR. : Can you recall any situations 8 where an inmate leaves for court and III is 9 notified, "Hey, listen, the inmate is not 10 coming back," where III actually called the 11 unit to let them know, "Hey, he's not coming 12 back?" 13 MS. : Yeah, we have. We have. 14 MR. : Is that because they 15 requested to be notified or is it because, is 16 that something that III normally does? 17 MS. : No, we might have - it might 18 have been that the inmate had property upstairs 19 and we might need him to secure the inmate's 20 property and bring it down. So, that's 21 normally sometimes why we might notify the unit 22 officer because sometimes the inmate, they'll 23 call back to the jail and say, "Oh, they 24 released me. I got my property upstairs." And 25 we'll call upstairs to the unit officer and EFTA00115140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming back, 2 can you secure his property?" 3 MR. : Okay. Before you left for 4 the day on August 9th, do you recall talking to 5 any COs about Reyes leaving? 6 MS. : I don't recall that, no. 7 MR. : I know we covered this as 8 part of previous conversation, so I'm going to 9 go through it quick. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : On August 10th when you came 12 on shift, which counts were you involved in? 13 MS. : I didn't take the counts, I 14 was number one in the Control Center. So my 15 number two person takes the counts. 16 MR. : Number two? Who was the 17 number two, do you recall? 18 MS. : Was it (Phonetic Sp. 19 *01:55:47)? 20 MR. : You can just look at that 21 for the daily assignments. 22 MR. : Just look at 10th, it's going 23 to be 10th. 24 MS. -: 25 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. EFTA00115141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 *01:55:59). 2 MS. : He was in the Control Center 3 with me. 4 MR. : Okay. And do recall 5 taking the midnight count? 6 MS. : I believe she came and took 7 the midnight count. 8 MR. : Were you present for it? 9 MS. : I was in the Control Center - 10 11 MR. : But -. 12 MS. : -- but I wasn't focused on 13 them taking the count. I was focused on 14 counting my equipment, accounting for my 15 equipment. 16 MR. : Do you recall any issues with 17 the count? 18 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 19 I recall. 20 MR. : And do you recall who called 21 in the count from the SHU? 22 MS. : Not that I can recall. 23 MR. : What about the 3:00 a.m. and 24 the 5:00 a.m.? 25 MS. : I know one of them called the EFTA00115142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 count in because that's the only way we can 2 clear a count. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : So I don't remember who 5 called but I know somebody did call in the 6 count. 7 MR. : Do you recall during the 8 middle of the count calling the 9 SHU, having conversation with the CO in there? 10 MS. : I don't know because a lot of 11 times they'll call downstairs when they're 12 calling in the count and she'll have short 13 conversations with the officers, so I can't say 14 whether she called them or they called her, I 15 don't know. 16 MR. : Do you recall if there was a 17 second count slip sent up for the SHU for the 18 midnight count? 19 MS. : No, I can't recall, I don't 20 know. 21 MR. : Can COs just call in the 22 previous number or do they have to physically 23 do the count? 24 MS. : No, they have to count. 25 MR. : Why? EFTA00115143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 MS. : You're counting for living, 2 breathing bodies. 3 MR. : Once the counts are done, do 4 the COs have to notify you? 5 MS. : They're supposed to call the 6 Control Center and call in their count. They 7 call the control two, which is 6468, and they 8 call in their count. 9 MR. : Do the COs fill out any 10 paperwork for the count? 11 MS. : A count slip. A count slip. 12 MR. : Think we pretty much covered 13 a lot of the other questions. Do you have 14 anything on that topic? 15 MR. : Who all has access to 16 update the E-1 document? 17 MS. : Who all has access to update 18 it? The Control Center officers. 19 MR. : When you say, "officer," 20 just the Control Center officers is what you 21 mean? 22 MS. : Whoever works in the Control 23 24 MR. : Right. 25 MS. : -- but a lot of times, most EFTA00115144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 of the officers were shifted around working 2 Control, so primarily, if you work the Control 3 Center as a counts and assignments officer, you 4 had access to printing out an E-1. All the 5 Lieutenants have access, III had access, but we 6 don't have access to that no more. 7 MR. : But at that point, did you 8 guys have access? 9 MS. : Yeah, because you have to 10 prepare this for the count, so yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : But we don't have access 13 anymore. 14 MR. : So Control Officers, 15 Lieutenants, anyone else? 16 MS. : 17 MR. : And that anyone who has 18 worked in Control at that time, at least they 19 maintained the access for a certain amount of 20 period afterwards? 21 MS. : Yeah, Uh-huh. 22 MR. : Do you know how long that 23 period of time was at that point? 24 MS. : I don't think - I think if 25 you had access to it, you just had access to EFTA00115145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 it. It don't think it was no 2 MR. : So, given access once, 3 you got it until -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- they revoke it. 6 MS. : Right. Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : I don't think it was - yeah, 9 it was no time frame that I know of. 10 MR. : You have any other questions 11 on that? When you were in - are you aware 12 there were cameras inside the MCC on August 9th 13 and 10th? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : When you were in Control, did 16 you have access to see the cameras? 17 MS. : Yeah, you - the cameras in 18 the - it's like little TV screens with little 19 individual boxes of different areas of the 20 institution. 21 MR. : Could you see the SHU in 22 there? 23 MS. : No. You could only see over 24 a balcony looking down to the MP and it was 25 like far off so it's like the camera is up on a EFTA00115146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 balcony and just looking all the way down over 2 there. You don't really - can't really see 3 nothing. 4 MR. : Was it clear? 5 MS. : No. It's like, if you see, 6 you might have seen a body move here and there, 7 but you can't really tell - you couldn't really 8 - it wasn't clear, no. 9 MR. : Did you ever hear that the 10 cameras are not working, offline or not 11 recording? 12 MS. : All the time. 13 MR. : And was there complaints 14 filed - told to anybody specific? The Captain, 15 Lieutenant? 16 MS. : I believe notifications were 17 made, like especially if we're in the Control 18 Center, we would call the com tech and say, 19 "Hey, this camera might have went out." So 20 yeah, notifications were made. 21 MR. : And did they fix it 22 immediately? 23 MS. : At that time, no, things 24 weren't getting fixed immediately, no. 25 MR. : Do you recall seeing Michael EFTA00115147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 Thomas (Indiscernible *02:00:56) on the camera 2 on the night - on the morning watch of August 3 10th? 4 MS. : You can't see really from the 5 camera that I had access to, you can't really 6 see - you can't - you barely could see because 7 it's like, I don't know if you've ever been in 8 our SHU. Have you ever been in the SHU? 9 MR. : That's -. 10 MR. : No, we have pictures but 11 we've never -- 12 MR. : That's this picture. 13 MR. actually been there. 14 MS. : So, you can't really see. 15 MR. : I'm showing you a picture. 16 MS. : This is -. 17 MR. : Is this the view? 18 MS. : Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, 19 this is it. So like, if they were in a black 20 hoodie or something, you can't see nobody over 21 there. If their back is turned and the chairs 22 are - you can't really see. You might see a 23 body walk across or you might see a body walk 24 down, but you can't really see. It's not a 25 real good copy. But yeah, that's exactly what EFTA00115148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 I'm talking about. 2 MR. : Do you have anything else on 3 the cameras? 4 MR. : No, just when you're in 5 the Control Center, does it - is there any 6 indication saying that if a camera is working 7 but not recording? No. There's no way for you 8 to know if a camera is recording or not? 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Just if it was actually 11 live or not. 12 MS. : Uh-huh. You would just know 13 that the camera is up. You don't know - I 14 wouldn't have been able to tell you that, I 15 don't know. Huh-uh. 16 MR. : Okay. And did you, prior 17 to 6:33, when a body alarm was set off, did you 18 notice anything unusual happening in the 19 institution on any cameras? Specifically, i 20 guess the SHU one that you couldn't see that 21 well anyway? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : No. Okay. 24 MS. : Huh-uh. 25 MR. : There was no other angles EFTA00115149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 from the SHU you could see? 2 MS. : No. This is all I - that's 3 all you could see. 4 MR. : Anything else on that? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Now just a few other 7 questions. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Do you recall anyone going 10 into the SHU that night, on August 10th? 11 MS. : August 10th, that's the 12 Saturday? 13 MR. : That's Saturday, overnight. 14 MR. : The morning that Epstein 15 was found dead. 16 MS. : Going in? The morning he was 17 found or -- 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MS. : -- or the night prior to him 20 being found? 21 MR. : Both is fine. 22 MS. : Well, I know the Lieutenant 23 made rounds. 24 MR. : Lieutenant who? 25 MS. -: , she made rounds EFTA00115150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 because they have to call the door, so we have 2 to pop her in. 3 MR. : So when he says "night," 4 he's talking about midnight to 6:30 -- 5 MS. : Right. Yeah. 6 MR. : -- right. 7 MS. : So, Lieutenant, she made 8 rounds on the unit because the SHU staff called 9 the door for her to pop - for us to pop her 10 into the SHU and when they call the door, when 11 you hit that door, a visual of the door, who 12 standing in front of the door pops up in the 13 Control Center, so you know who is going into 14 the SHU. During the body alarm, our usual 15 staff just responds to a body alarm, so, you 16 know they say, "Hey, we have a medical 17 emergency in SHU," or wherever they call. You 18 got the SHU crew calling the door so staff can 19 run in and assist, so, whoever ran in, I 20 couldn't tell you. But whoever was on shift az 21 that time, responded. 22 MR. : So the only one overnight 23 would be at that - before his body was found 24 would be Lieutenant 25 MS. : Lieutenant EFTA00115151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 internal. If he had -. 2 MR. : Who is internal? 3 MS. _: 4 MR. : Do you recall 5 requesting to go into the SHU? 6 MS. : He would - he don't really 7 he wouldn't really have a reason to go into 8 SHU, not unless they're calling for you to come 9 in and do something or he's going in, you know, 10 because normally, the two officers will count, 11 they'll put their count slip on the door and 12 the internal officer, he'll pick up the count 13 slip on his rounds while he's counting the 14 other units. So, if he doesn't have a reason 15 to go in the SHU, he won't go in SHU. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you know if there's 17 any other way that anyone can get through that 18 outer door of the SHU without Control buzzing 19 them in? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Is the -. 22 MS. : You would need an emergency 23 key that you would have to get from the Control 24 Center. But no one gets those keys. And 25 especially on morning watch when there's no EFTA00115152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 need for us to give out those keys. Staff are 2 calling the door, so, no, there's no other way 3 to get in that unit. 4 MR. : Are those keys kept open or 5 is it just it's locked up? 6 MS. : It's behind a door in the 7 bathroom in the Control Center. 8 MR. : And that would get you 9 through the first door. Do you know if there's 10 a second set of keys for the internal door for 11 the SHU kept in the Control Center? 12 MS. : We have keys for most of the 13 doors, yes. But those door - the inner door, 14 the Unit Officer would have, the inner door, he 15 has access to that. So the Unit Officers have 16 those keys. 17 MR. : We're just asking just to 18 clarify, if - do you know if anyone checked out 19 the keys for the inner door or the outer door 20 out of the Control Center that night? 21 MS. : The outer door, those keys 22 never get checked out, but the inner door, that 23 key is a key pretty much like a - you have to 24 put a chit on the Control Center and 25 MR. : Put a what? EFTA00115153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 MS. : A chit. 2 MR. : What's that? 3 MS. : So it's like a chit system. 4 I have a pair of keys. In order for me to get 5 these keys from Control, I have to turn in a 6 chit -- 7 MR. : So it's basically 8 MS. -- with my name. Yeah, you 9 have to turn in a chit. So it's -. 10 MR. : A key chain with your name on 11 it. 12 MS. : Yeah, it's a chit. Uh-huh. 13 And you - it's like a - what is it, what would 14 you call it? Accountability. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : So, you put the chit on it, 17 you give the person a key. In order to get the 18 chit back, you got to give them the key back, 19 then you get the chit back. 20 MR. : Do you recall if anyone did 21 that for the SHU keys that night? 22 MS. : I don't recall. But I don' t 23 recall that, no. 24 MR. : Okay. I've got nothing else. 25 Do you - is there any questions that you think EFTA00115154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 that we didn't ask you about that you feel that 2 we should ask you about? 3 MS. : Hm. 4 MR. : In regards to this Epstein 5 investigation? 6 MS. Mm, no, I think that's -. 7 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 8 took his own life? 9 MS. : I believe so. 10 MR. : Do you have any reason to 11 believe that anyone took Epstein's life aside 12 from himself? 13 MS. : No. 14 MR. : Do you have any knowledge 15 of anyone assisting Epstein with taking his 16 life? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : No. I believe he had a lot 20 on his plate and this environment was a culture 21 shock to him then. I think that he took his 22 own life. 23 MR. : Now the fact that we 24 don't have camera from that tier - oh, I wanted 25 to circle back with you. So our understanding EFTA00115155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 from the camera technicians and everyone else 2 is that there were actually at that time 3 cameras down each range, they just weren't 4 recording. 5 MS. : Oh. 6 MR. : Do you know anything 7 about that? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : Do you know - do you have 10 any reason to believe that someone knocked 11 those cameras off line intentionally so that 12 they stopped recording? 13 MS. : No. No. I don't believe 14 that. No. No. 15 MR. : All right. And you don't 16 know anything about that? 17 MS. : No. No. That's a good one. 18 MR. : Well, it's just there's a 19 lot of coincidences in this one. 20 MS. : Yeah. It's unfortunate. You 21 know, this building is still deteriorating as 22 we speak, so, it just - a lot of repairs and 23 maintenance that needs to be done in this 24 institution. It's - yeah. Yeah. 25 MR. : That's all. EFTA00115156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr 1 MR. : That's it? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 4 the time to talk to us. 5 MS. : You're welcome. You're 6 welcome. 7 MR. : This is Special Agent 8 The time is 6:12 p.m. on Thursday, 9 July 15, 2021. We're ending the interview and 10 turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 7 8 Interview of 9 10 11 12 13 Transcriber 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115158