EFTA01107798

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA CASE NO. 08-CIV-80119-MARRA/JOHNSON JANE DOE NO. 2, Plaintiff, -vs- JEFFREY EPSTEIN, Defendant. Related cases: 08-80232, 08-08380, 08-80381, 08-80994, 08-80993, 08-80811, 08-80893, 09-80469, 09-80591, 09-80656, 09-80802, 09-81092, DEPOSITION OF JANE DOE #7 - VOLUME I (videotaped) Monday, March 15, 2010 10:02 - 6:49 p.m. 250 Australian Avenue South Suite 1500 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 Reported By: Rachel W. Bridge, RMR, CRR Notary Public, State of Florida (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107798 EFTA01107799 Page 2 Page 4 APPEARANCES: 1 PROCEEDINGS On behalfof the Plaintiffs in related eases 2 Not 08-80069, 08-80119,08-80232, 08-80380, W40181,0IWW993,011-80994: 3 Deposition taken before Rachel W. Bridge, ADAMD. HOROWITZ, ESQUIRE 4 Certified Realtime Reporter and Notary Public in and for MERMELSTETN & HOROWITZ,P.A. 5 the State ofFlorida at Large, in the above cause. 5 18205 Biscayne Boulevard 6 Suite 2218 6 Miami, Florida 33160 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the 15th day of Telephone: 305/931-2200 8 March, 2010. The time is 10:02 a.m. 7 9 This is the videotape deposition oflane Doe On behalfof the Defendant Jeffrey Epstein: 10 9 ROBERT D. CRITION. JR., ESQUIRE #7 in the matter of' Jane Doe number two versus BURMAN, CIUTFON, LUTHER & COLEMAN 11 Epstein. This deposition is being held at 250 10 393 Banyan Boulevard 12 Australian Avenue South, West Palm Beach, Florida. Suite 400 13 My name is Sasha Quimby. Pm the videographer 11 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 Telephone: 561/842-2820 14 representing Visual Evidence, Inc. 12 15 Would the attorneys please announce their 13 16 appearances for the record. 14 Also Present: Sasha Quimby. videographer 17 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Sure. My name is Adam 16 18 Horowitz, counsel for the witness, plaintiff. 17 19 MR. CARTON: Bob Critton for Jeffrey Epstein. 18 20 Thereupon, 19 20 21 (JANE DOE #7) 21 22 having been first duly sworn a affirmed, was examined 22 23 and testified as follows: 23 24 THE WITNESS: I do. 24 25 25 Page 3 Page 5 1 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 INDEX 3 Q. Please tell me your hill name. 3 4 A. lane Doe 7. WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Q. Where do you live, ma'am? 4 6 A. I live in Orlando. Jane Doe 47 7 5 Q. I understand that Where, give me your By Mr. Critton 5 8 address, 6 9 A. 7 10 EXHIBITS 11 Q. Is that apartment or a home? 9 12 A. It's an apartment,M. 10 EXHIBIT PAGE 13 Q. And with whom do you live at that apartment? 11 Defendant's 1 233 14 A. I have a roommate 12 Defendant's 2 233 15 13 Defendant's 3 233 Q. What's 14 Defendant's 4 263 16 A. 15 Defendant's 5 268 17 Q. The last name? 16 Defendant's 6 274 18 A. 17 Defendant's 7 280 18 19 Q. Defendant's 8 294 19 Defendant's 9 301 20 A. I think it's 20 21 Q. How long has your mommate? 21 22 A. She's been my roommate for about four months 22 23 23 now. 24 24 Q. Have you ever given a deposition before? 25 25 A. No, l have not. 2 (Pages 2 to 5) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107800 Page 6 Page 1 Q. I'm confident that Mr. Horowitz, your 1 A. I guess I wasn't under oath for that. 2 attorney, has told you about the procedure. I get to 2 Q. Do you understand the distinction between 3 ask you a lot of questions and he may have some 3 being under oath and not under oath? Is that a yes? 4 questions at the end. You understand that? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Uh huh. 5 Q. Okay. What's the distinction to you? 6 Q. Yes? 6 A. That you have to tell the full truth. 7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay, all right. 8 Q. You need to answer out loud, yes, nos, l don't 8 A. Actually I don't know, because I, I don't 9 know, I don't recall, whatever your answer is. Do you 9 remember being under oath for the medical examiner, so 10 understand that as well? 13 maybe - 11 A. Yes. 11 Q. So you had a medical exam by whom? 12 Q. Okay. If I ask you a question that you don't 12 A. By Dr. Kilman and your medical examiner. I 13 understand, ask me to either to rephrase it or to repeat 13 forget his name. 14 it rll be happy to do that, all right? 14 Q. Okay. When did you see my medical examiner? 15 A. Uh huh yes. 15 How long ago? 16 Q. All right. If you answer a question, I'm 16 A. About two weeks ago. 17 going to assume that you've understood it and answered 17 Q. And you spent how long with him? 18 it truthfully. Fair? 18 A. About five hours. 19 A. Yes. 19 Q. And he took the history, background 20 Q. All right. Any time you want to take a break, 20 information from you as well as you did testing, 21 let us know. Pm okay with that unless you're in the 21 correct? 22 middle of a question or I'm in a series of questions 22 A. Yes. 23 then I'll probably balk at it, but other than that, just 23 Q. And that was two weeks ago, but you don't 24 let us know. 24 remember his name? 25 You understand you are under oath today? 25 A. No. Page 7 Page 9 1 A. Yes. 1 Q. And you called — the evaluator or the person 2 Q. And you understood when you are put under 2 who did the examination at your attomey's request for 3 oath, whether by a court reporter at a deposition or if 3 you in this case is Dr. who? I at a trial if this case goes to trial or by a police 4 A. Kilman. officer, you are required to tell the truth? 5 Q. Kilman, all right. How do you think you spell A. Yes. 6 that? Q. If you don't tell the truth, you may be 7 A. I'm guessing. 6 committing a crime, committing the crime of perjury. 8 Q. All right. Since the time you had — and I'll 9 Do you understand that? 9 represent to you his real name is Kliman. 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 10 A. Kliman, 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 Q. That's all right. Since you did your 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 examination with him in December of '08, it wa. 13 Q. I'm sorry? 13 December 5th of '08, have you had any contact with him 14 A. Yes. 14 whatsoever, him being Dr. Kliman? 15 Q. You've been put under oath before, true? 15 A. No, I have not. 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. So with both Dr. Kliman and Dr. Hall, you 17 Q. Okay. And you understand that you were sworn 17 weren't under oath, correct, as you understand it? 18 to tell the truth? 18 A. No, I guess not. 19 A. Yes. 19 Q. I'm sorry? 20 Q. Okay. On how many occasions have you been put 20 A. No, I guess no. 21 under oath where you have given testimony about 21 Q. Well, did you tell him the truth? Did you 22 anything? 22 tell both of than the truth? 23 A. I believe I was under oath at — was that when 23 A. Yes. 24 the medical examiner's, I guess it was — 24 Q. All right. So even though you weren't under 25 Q. Medical examiner, who was that? 25 oath, so there may not be a penalty of perjury 3 (Pages 6 to 9) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107801 Page 10 Page 12 1 associated with it if you lied, it's Your testimony that 1 of scared, because Mcalled me and left a voicemail 2 you told both Dr. ICIhnan and Dr. Hall the truth? 2 on my phone asking about the cops. And I just like 3 A. Yes. 3 didn't know what was going on. So no, I didn't tell 4 Q. Okay. And during the examination that was 4 them everything that happened. 5 done by Dr. Hall, did you feel that you had enough time 5 Q. Okay. 6 to take breaks, that you had an opportunity to fully 6 A. And my parents were there. 7 explore all of the issues that you wanted to discuss 7 Q. Let me move to strike as nonresponsive. 8 with him? 8 But let me get back to you lied to the police 9 A. Yes. 9 officers when they took a, from the Town of Palm 10 Q All right. Did you think he was fair with you 10 Beach — strike that 11 and treated you with respect during the course of the 11 It's your testimony now even though you know 12 interview? 12 that you could be penalized or that you could be found 13 A. Yes, I did. 13 guilty of perjury, it didn't bother you at all to lie to 14 Q. Now I think you told me you've never given a 14 police officers when they put you tinder oath back in 15 deposition before like we're doing here today? 15 October of 2005; is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Object to form and asked and 17 Q. That's correct? 17 answered. 18 A. Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 Q. And you've never testified in cowl, true? 19 BY MR. CRITION: 20 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. I71 ask you to assume that the police 21. Q Do you understand that if in fact this case is 21 officers interviewed you from the Town of Palm Beach on 22 not resolved at some point, that you will be testifying 22 October 4th of 2005, all right? 23 in court and people will know that you are lane Doe 7 in 23 A. 1.1h huh. 24 court? 24 Q. Yes? 25 A. Yes. 25 A. Yes. Page 11 Page 13 1 Q. Okay. And you may no longer be Jane Doe, and 1 Q. Okay. Have you read anything through today's 2 whether it's a newspaper or anyone who wants to do a 2 date that suggests to you that you lied to the police 3 story about this case, your name may well become public; 3 officers? That is, what have you seen that makes you 4 do you understand that? 4 remember that you lied to the police officers? 5 MR. HOROWITZ: Foam 5 A. I just remember from my own memory what I told 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 than, that I didn't tell them everything that went on. 7 BY MR. CRITTON: 7 Q. Well, you keep saying I didn't tell them 8 Q. Affright. Now at some point did you give everything. In essence, you lied to the police 9 a — you met with police officers; is that correct, 9 officers, correct? 10 associated with the Town of Palm Beach? 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Firm. That's the third time 11 A. Yes. 11 you asked the question. 12 Q. And did they take a statement from you? 12 MR. CRITTON: Well, but she keeps changing the 13 A. Yes, they did. 13 answer, so — 14 Q. And I asswne you told — the police officers 14 MR. HOROWITZ: No, no, no. 15 put you under oath as well, you swore to tell the whole 15 MR. CR1TTON: You can object to the form. 16 truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God? They put 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Bob, you are harassing her. 17 you under oath? 17 MR. CRITTON: Fm not harassing her. She 18 A. Yes. 18 keeps saying I didn't tell them the whole thing. 19 Q. And you told than the truth as well, correct? 19 There is a distinction between a lie and not 20 A. I didn't tell them the complete truth. 20 telling the truth. 21 Q. You lied to the police officers; is that what 21 MR. HOROWITZ: She said — 22 you're saying? 22 MR. CRITTON: I understand what she's trying 23 A. Yes. I was scared and I was about 18, and I 23 to say. 24 was confused. They just showed up at my house with no 24 MR. HOROWITZ: She answered your question. 25 warning, and I was just kind of in shock and I was kind 25 4 (Pages 10 to 13) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107802 Page 14 Page 16 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 1 A. Uhhttb. 2 Q. Back to my question, ma'am. On October 4 of 2 Q. Yes? 3 2005 when the police officers came to interview you and 3 A. Yes, that's correct. 4 you did not tell them the truth, or from your 4 Q. And you said — so how long did it take you to S perspective the complete truth, you say you were only 18 5 get home? 6 at the time. 6 A. I was about five minutes away from my house. 7 A. I was younger and I was confused. And my 7 Q. All tight. Did you tell your parents don't 3 parents were there and they showed up without me having 8 want to talk to them, I'm scared and confined, maybe 9 any knowledge that they were going to be there besides a even in shock and I'm only 18, so tell them not to come? 10 telephone call I got from my parents. 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Fain. 11 And I showed up and I was scared. I was 11 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that at all. I 12 scared I was going to get in trouble. I was scared what 12 was, I had no idea what it was about, so I had no 13 my parents would think. I was upset. I mean a lot of 13 idea it was about the whole Jeffrey Epstein thing. 14 things were going on then. 14 BY MR. CRITTON: 15 Q. Okay. You were scared what your — and 15 Q. Well, had anybody called you and told you 16 confused as to what your parents would think, but, but 16 anything about Jeffrey Epstein or that the police were 17 you weren't too scared to not tell the police officers 17 interviewing individuals related to Jeffrey Epstein? 18 the truth, correct? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 19 A. I guess you could say that, yes. 19 THE WITNESS: No, besides left a 20 Q. How else would you describe it? 20 voicemail, but it was I think when I already got 21 A. Just how I did. 21 there, she left a voicemail saying about, asking if 22 Q. All right. Okay. You were 18 at the time. 22 I had, if the cops were at my place and I was 23 YOU were an adult, right? 23 talking to them and if I was going to ask them any 24 A. Uh huh. 24 questions. She just left me a voicemail, so — 25 Q. Yes? 25 Page 15 Page 17 1 A. Yes. 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Q. And you were 18? 2 Q. What about Jane Doe 4, hadn't you talked to 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3 Jane Doe 4, because she had been interviewed by the 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 police officers, hadn't she? 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 A. I don't think she was imerviewed before me. 6 Q. In 2005. Were you in at the time? 6 Q. You think your interview preceded or was 7 A. I believe went to 7 before hoe Doe 4? 8 is where? 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 A. It's in Orlando. 9 THE WITNESS: I can't remember exactly, but I 10 Q. So you were in college at the time, correct? 10 think so, yes. 11 A. Yes. 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 Q. The police officers called your home? 12 Q. So you show up, you are 18, you are an adult. 13 A. Yes. 13 You can choose to either talk to the police or not, 14 Q. And — 14 correct? 15 A. Well, they didn't call my home. They just 15 A. Uh huh. 16 showed up there and my parents called me saying that 16 Q. Yes? 17 there were two police officers there waiting for me. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And so you must have been home from school at 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form 19 that time? 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 20 A. Yes, I was. I was on break. 20 Q. All right. The confusion from your 21 Q. You were on break. So you had, at least your 21 perspective was you didn't know why the police were 22 parents called you and said there's two police officers 22 there? 23 here from the Town ofPalm Beach? 23 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 24 A. Yes. 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 Q. And they want to talk to you? 25 Q. Right? Otb:0•4•46AMMOaimatoemeaxtet....of 5 (Pages 14 to 17) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107803 Page 18 Page 20 1 A. Yes. 1 police officers? 2 Q. All right. You may have been scared 2 Why did that not make sense to you, ma'am? 3 originally, why are the police at my home? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Penn. 4 A. (Witness nods head up and down.) 4 THE WITNESS: Because I did not want to hurt 5 Q. All right, I understand that. So you come 5 my mom and let her find out about everything that 6 in. There are two police officers. Males, or one male, 6 happened with Jeffrey. I don't think that's fair 7 one female? 7 to her to hear that from a cop without me telling 8 A. There are two males. 8 her first. 9 Q. They introduce themselves? 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 10 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Well, but you were confused, scared - 11 Q. And what did they say they wanted to talk — 11 and in shock. So don't most young adults who have good 12 let me strike that. 12 relationships with their parents, isn't that one of the 13 Did you speak to the two officers together or 13 first people you would want to talk to is either your 14 were your parents right there with you? 14 mother or father, have them both around? 15 A. My parents were there when they were there and 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Object to the form. 16 I was there. 16 THE WITNESS: No, that would be the last, I 17 Q. So did you all sit down in the living room? 17 wouldn't want her to find out anything until I had 18 A. We sat down outside and they said they wanted 18 time to sit down with her and tell her. I wouldn't 19 to talk to me. I don't exactly remember what they said, 19 want to have her there while cops were 20 but they said something about Jeffrey. And that's when 20 interrogating me. 21 I asked my mom if she could go inside the house. And 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 that's when I talked to them. 22 Q. So you knew that the cops were going to 23 Q. How about your dad, was he there too? 23 interrogate you — I'm using your word — right? 24 A. He wasn't there at the house. He was at work. 24 A. Yes. I'm sure they were going to ask me 25 Q. I thought you said both your parents was 25 questions about Jeffrey and what happened. Page 19 Page 21 1 there. So it was only your mom that was there? 1 Q. So therefore, you certainly had the presence 2 A. Well, he came home later. 2 of mind to say, after you knew why the police were 3 Q. I understand that, but you left the impression 3 there, the four of you were standing or sitting outside 4 with me earlier that your dad was there and your mom 4 and you said, "Mom, go inside," because you wanted to be 5 were diem, they were waiting there with the police 5 able to talk -- 6 officers. That's not correct? 6 A. Well, actually — 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Faint. 7 Q. Can I finish my question, please? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, my mom was there and then 8 You wanted to be able to move Mom to a 9 my dad carne home later, so I guess -- 9 different section of the house so you could talk to the 10 BY MR. CRTITON: 10 police officers, find out what they wanted, and then 11 Q. When the police officers were still there? 11 think about what ultimately you would tell your mom; 12 A. Yes. 12 fair statement? 13 Q. So mom, the four ofyou sit down outside, the 13 MR. HOROWITZ: Form, compound. 14 police officers say rd like to talk to you about 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, and also the cops asked her 15 Jeffrey Epstein, you asked your mom to go inside? 15 to go inside too. They, they were actually the 16 A. Uh huh. 16 ones that recommended it. And then I asked her, I 17 Q. Yes? 17 said, "Yes, Mom, could you go inside?" 18 A. Yes. 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. You certainly have the presence ofmind to say 19 Q. But you could have said "No, l wain my mom 20 'Mom, go inside"? 20 here"? 21 A. Yes. 21 A. I didn't want her there. 22 Q. Why, if you are 18, only 38, as you describe 22 Q. I understand you didn't, but you could have 23 it, you are confused, you are scared and you are in 23 said 'I want my mother here"? 24 shock, why wouldn't you keep someone who is very close 24 A. Of course I could have. 25 to you, your mother, there before you talked to the 25 Q. All right. But again, you had the presence of 6 (Pages 18 to 21) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107804 Page 22 Page 24 1 mind to determine whether or not you wanted your mother 1 not? 2 to stay or not stay, correct? 2 A. Yes, 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3 Q. Where police officers want to cone and talk to 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 a particular witness, maybe a suspect in the crime, 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 sometimes they talk, sometimes they don't? Q. Let me tell you one other thing. From time to 6 You know that, we've all seen "Law and Order" 7 time 111 ask questions and I may not be done. If I'm 7 and those series. You have seen them too, haven't you? 8 not done with the question, I'm going to tell you, 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 because not to be rude to you, but to be certain you 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 understand my full question, right? So that you can 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 hear the full thing. 11 Q. Anyhow, you make a conscious decision to say 12 If I chop you off in an answer, just let me 12 okay, I'm going to sit down and talk with the police 13 know. Say, "Critton, I'm not done with my answer," and 13 officers and find out what they want to ask me, right? 14 then Ill let you finish your answer, okay? So that way 14 A. Yes. 15 I make certain that I hear your response as well. 15 Q. How long were they there? 16 A. Okay. 16 A. They were there for about an hour and a half, 17 Q. Okay. So did you tell the police officers 17 two hours. I really don't remember. 18 after you had presence of mind to send your mom into the 18 Q. Did they have a tape recorder with them? 19 house, say took, l don't really vault to talk to you 19 A. I believe so. 20 about this, I'd like to be able to talk to my parents 20 Q. Did they talk to you — during the entire time 21 first and then HI talk to you later"? 21 they talked to you, did they have the tape recorder on? 22 A. I kind of wanted to know what was going on, 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 23 and they made it sound like I needed to talk to them or 23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 24 I would get in trouble if I didn't talk to them. 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 Q. Why would you get in trouble? 25 Q. Did they have it on fora portion of the Page 23 Page 25 A. Because - 1 interview? 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 2 A. Yes. 3 THE WITNESS: -- they are the cops, and I was 3 Q. And where you raised your right hand and you 4 young, I didn't know. 4 were sworn to tell the truth? 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You were 18. You were an adult 6 Q. And they asked you a bunch of questions? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 A. Yes. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 8 Q. And if I understand your testimony, it's -- 9 Q. MIS? 9 your position is you didn't lie to them, you just didn't 10 A. Yeah, if you can — yes. 10 tell them everything: is that correct? 11 Q. All right. And other times that you were 11 MR. HOROWITZ: FWD. 12 either confined or scared, you had called your parents 12 THE WITNESS: I admitted that I lied and I 13 and said "Hey, look, I have this particular problem or I 13 didn't tell the whole truth, but I did not tell 14 don't have this — or I have this particular problem, 14 them everything that happened. I just told them 15 what should I do?" 15 some of what happened. 16 You have done that with your parents before? 16 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you ever looked at the police report or 18 Q. All right. Anyhow, so you decide to sit down 18 any probable cause affidavit or police report in 19 and talk with police officers. You made that decision? 19 preparation for your deposition today? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 A. Their police report? 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 21 Q. Have you seen any portions of the police 22 Q. Correct? 22 report that related to the interview relating to you? 23 A. Well, it was kind of like I felt like I had 23 A. No, I don't think so. 24 to. They were at my house. I didn't know any better. 24 Q. Have you looked at anything in preparation for 25 Q. Sure. You have seen TV shows before, had you 25 your deposition today? 7 (Pages 22 to 25) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107805 Page 26 Page 28 1 A. I just read over the Kilman Kliman, 1 Q. Let me get back to the police here. 2 sony — 2 So the police sit and they interview you for 3 Q. Kliman what? 3 an hour and a half to two hours, and during that, not 4 A. When I had an interview with him. 4 only the sworn part of the testimony out of your 5 Q. You mean his questions, your answers, or his S statement, but as well you're saying that you lied to 6 summary of what you said? 6 them during part of, part of what you've said, both 7 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 7 sworn and unsworn, and as well you didn't provide them 8 THE WITNESS: Just his questions and my 8 all the information, right? 9 answers. 9 A. Yes. 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 10 Q. Now, you filed your lawsuit in this case 11 Q. Did you read over your interrogatories, your 11 against Mr. Epstein and you are seeking, at least your 12 answers to the interrogatories? 12 lawyers are asking in part of the complaint for 13 A. Yes. 13 $50 million. Are you aware of that? 14 Q. Okay. When did you do that? 14 A. No, my lawyers take care of all that. 15 A. Actually, l did it right before I came in here 15 Q. All right. Let me show you I'll mark as 16 just to kind of rejog my memory. 16 Exhibit 1. 17 Q. That's fine. Did you look at anything else? 17 (The document was marked Defendant's 18 A. No. 18 Exhibit I for identification.) 19 Q. Have you read anybody else's deposition who 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 20 gave a deposition in this case? 20 Q. Exhibit 1 is the amended complaint that you 21 A. I haven't read anybody else's deposition. 21 filed, that your lawyers — it's the second complaint 22 Q. Have you talked to anyone? You have certainly 22 that actually was filed in this action. The original 23 talked to Jane Doe 4. She is one of your best friends, 23 complaint was filed on September 10th of '08, all right? 24 right? 24 A. I.Jh huh. 25 A. Yes, I talked to her. 25 Q. Yes? Page 27 Page 29 1 Q. And from my recollection of Jane Doe 4's A. Yes. 2 deposition is you guys talk almost every day? 2 Q. All right. So between the time that the 3 MR. HOROWITZ: I'm sorry, are we talking about 3 lawsuit was filed on September -- let me strike that — 4 in preparation for her depo? 4 that you gave a statement to the police officers under 5 MR. CRITTON: Just asking a question. 5 which you, about which you've admitted you did not tell 6 MR. HOROWITZ: You are moving off topic. 6 the truth on October 4,2005, up until three years 7 THE WITNESS: We don't talk every day, no, but 7 later — almost three years later, September 10th of 8 we do talk a lot. 8 '08, did you recontact the police and tell the police 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 that you had not told them the truth? In fact, you had 10 Q. Four, five, six times a week? 10 lied to them and withheld information? 11 A. I wouldn't say that much. 11 A. 1 told the FBI that when they came up to visit 12 Q. How often do you still talk? 12 me in Orlando. 13 A. I talked to her recently when I was in town, 13 Q. That wasn't my question. 14 but when I'm in Orlando I don't talk to her every week. 14 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 15 Q. So if I got your phone records, I might find 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 16 that there are weeks or two weeks at a time that neither 16 Q. My question was did you talk to the Palm Beach 17 one of you are speaking with anyone — with each other, 17 police department — 18 I'm sorry. 18 A. 'never talked to them after that. 19 A. Yes. 19 Q. I need to finish the question. 20 Q. All right. Are you aware that Jane Doe 4 gave 20 A. I'm sorry. 21 a deposition in this case? 21 Q. -- from the time that you first spoke with 22 A. Yes. 22 them on October 4th of 2005 up until the time that the 23 Q. And you have talked to her about her 23 complaint was filed, that is, to bring this lawsuit 24 deposition, haven't you? 24 seeking damages in excess of $50 million against 25 A. Yes. 25 Mr. Epstein, did you ever call or recontact the Palm 8 (Pages 26 to 29) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107806 Page 30 Page 32 1 Beach Police Department and tell them what happened in 1 to lie to the police officers, were you? 2 tams of your interview; that is, that you didn't tell 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. 3 them the truth, you lied to than? 3 THE WITNESS; Actually, I was scared and 4 MR. HOROWITZ: Object to the form. 4 confused. That is why I lied to them. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 5 BY MR. CRITTON: BY MR. CRITTON: 6 Q. All right. So what were you scared and Q. Why not? 7 confused about? 3 A. Well, because they never called me back to ask 8 A. I was scared because I knew what happened with 9 me any more questions and I tried to move on fran 9 Jeffrey and I knew that was wrong and I, I knew that he 10 everything. I was in school. I was trying to, I was 10 was possibly going to get in trouble, and I didn't know 11 scared about everything that was going on with the media 11 if I was going to get in trouble for going there for 12 and all my friends, and I didn't want to say anything 12 what happened. 13 until I knew exactly what was going on and it was safe 13 So I mean I was mainly scared about that. I 14 for me to say everything and I wasn't going to get in 14 was scared about my parents finding out. Just 15 trouble. 15 everything going on with what happened, I was scared 16 Q. Well, why would you think you would get in 16 about and confused about. 17 trouble? I mean if you didn't hesitate to lie to the 17 Q. Okay. When was the last time you were at 18 Palm Beach Police Department, what trouble did you think 18 Mr. Epstein's home, that you claim you were at 19 you were going to get in? 19 Mr. Epstein's home? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 A. I'm pretty sure it was the end ofmy junior 21 THE WITNESS: I had no idea. I just, I didn't 21 year ofhigh school. 22 really know at the time. I was just scared. 22 Q. Which would have been what? 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 A. It would have been 2004, I believe. 24 Q. Well, you knew that perjury was a crime back 24 Q. Okay. And that was the last time you were 25 then, didn't you? 25 there, so it would have been what, approximately May of Page 31 Page 1 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 1 2004? 7 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 A. T don't remember exact dates, but I just Q. To lie to a police officer under oath? 3 believe it was the end ofmy junior year, so probably A Yes. I also knew what Jeffrey did was a 4 around May or June. crime, but I mean — 5 Q. 2004? 6 Q. I'm not talking about Jeffrey. Go ahead, 6 A. Yes 7 finish your answer. 7 Q. Not 2005? 8 Again, I'm interested in specific answers to 8 A. I don't believe I went in 2005 9 questions, and I'm going to have to move to strike and 9 Q. When did you graduate from la 10 re-ask you the question. So I know that you may have 10 A. 2005. 11 some things that you want to add on. Your lawyer can 11 Q. All right So the end of your —so your 12 certainly come back and cover that, but if you can focus 12 senior year would have been approximately August of '04 13 on my question, this goes a lot faster, but you can 13 through May of'05? 14 answer anything the way you want. 14 A. Yes. 15 My question is with regard to the police 15 Q. So where your Exhibit I, the complaint alleges 16 officers, you knew, you knew that telling them a lie was 16 that you first went to Mr. Epstein's home when you were 17 a crime, correct? 17 16 years old and you continued to go over a period of 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form Object to the form. 18 one and a half to two years, that's false; is that 19 This is the third time you've asked the question, 19 correct? 20 at least. 20 MB. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I already told you. 21 THE WITNESS: I believe so. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 Q. Yes? 23 Q. I'm sorry? 24 A. Yes. 24 A. I believe so. 25 Q. Okay. So you weren't too scared or confused 25 Q. So over what period of time, when do you think 9 (Pages 30 to 33) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107807 Page 34 Page 36 1 you first went to Mr. Epstein's home? 1 BY MR. CRITION: 2 A. I believe I went the end of my sophomore year 2 Q. -- to the police officers? 3 611 about the end of my junior year. Fm not sure if 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 4 it was the beginning or the end of my sophomore year. 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 Somewhere around there. 5 Q. Whether you were scared or confused at that 6 Q. Well, you told the police that you were 6 time, you probably would have given them at least your 7 approximately 17 when you first went to Mr. Epstein's 7 accurate age when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? 8 home, didn't you? 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 A. I don't exactly remember what, when I said 9 THE WITNESS: I may have said it because I was 10 that, I first told them I went. 10 scared and I didn't want to them to think I 11 Q. If I asked you to assume that the police 11 actually went that long, or I don't know why I said 12 report reflects that the statement that you gave to 12 it. I honestly don't know. 13 them, that you were there when you wore 17 years old, 13 BY MR. CRITTON: 14 all right? 14 Q. And maybe it was the truth at the time? 15 A. Okay. 15 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 16 Q. I old and you were born in, 16 THE WITNESS: I mean I really don't know. 17 let's see,Milir so it would have been 17 BY MR. CRITTON: 18 approximately June, the end of June of 2004, correct, 18 Q. So it may have been the truth, it may not have 19 that you first went there? 19 been the truth; even today you don't know, correct, 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 whether you were 17 when you first went to 21 THE WITNESS: I, I don't exactly know, to be 21 Mr. Epstein's? 22 honest with you. 22 A. I believe I was 16, because I believe it was 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 the end of my sophomore year. So I at least think I was 24 Q. You mean when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? 24 16. 25 A. I can't put a date on it. I just remember it 25 Q. So you are meeting with two police officers Page 35 Page 37 1 was my sophomore year to my junior year. 1 from the Town of Palm Beach in basically a secure 2 Q. When you gave a statement to the police on 2 environment, nothing can happen to you there. You told 3 October 4,2005, whether you were 16 or 17, what 3 them that you were 17 years old when you first went to 4 difference would it have made to the police officers? 4 Mr. Epstein's. 5 Why would being scared or confused, why would you Ile 5 Now that you arc seeking $50 million in a 6 about your age when you first went to Mr. Epstein's? 6 lawsuit that was filed on September 10 of '08, now all 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 of a sudden maybe you were 16? Is that your testimony? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Let me object to form. You are 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 mischaracterizing the testimony. 10 Q. Maybe in fact — 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 A. I mean I did go when l was 17 too, so I may 11 Q. You can go ahead and answer, ma'am. 12 have just said 17,1 don't really know. 12 A. Well, I told you that I didn't tell them the 13 Q. Well, you were 18 — again, would you agree 13 complete truth. So what would it matter if I told them 14 with me that your recollection of the events involving 14 I was 17 or 16, when I already told you I didn't tell 15 Mr. Epstein would have been better in October of '05 15 them the complete truth and I didn't tell them 16 than it is at the current time? 16 everything that happened? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. 17 Q. Well, again, my point is merely is — 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 A. I understand. 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. I want you to confirm that you didn't even 20 Q. And if you told the police officers you were 20 tell them the correct age, or at least your position is 21 17 when you first went to Mr. Epstein's home, would you 21 you may have lied to the police officers even about the 22 agree with me that that, there would have been no reason 22 age when you first went to Mr. Epstein's house? 23 for you to lie about your age at that time — 23 A. I believe the only reason 1 would have lied 24 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 24 about my age, because I was scared and I didn't want 25 25 them obviously when I was 16 to think that I went there 10 (Pages 34 to 37) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107808 Page 38 Page 40 1 as well as 17 and if I didn't really want to be involved 1 Q. So now your testimony is, also under oath, is 2 in it, so maybe that's why I said I was 17. I don't 2 we started maybe it was in your junior year. You told 3 remember that far back what I was thinking. 3 the police it was when you were 17, which would have put 4 Q. Okay. I understand that. But in fact it 4 k in your senior year or just before the start of your 5 could have been true that the first time you went to 5 senior year in 2005. 6 Mr. Epstein's house you were 17 years old, correct? 6 And now your testimony is it may have been in 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 your sophomore year, is that correct? 8 THE WITNESS: No, I remember going around the 8 A. I'm not trying to lie or mislead you. 1 9 end ofmy sophomore year. 9 honestly can't remember if it was my sophomore or my 10 BY MR. CR1TTON: 10 junior year 1 wasn't going by age or anything. I just 11 Q. Give me your best exact date when you first 11 could not remember what year I started going. 12 went to Mr. Epstein's home. 12 Q. All right. At least for todays deposition 13 A. I remembere was in . my gym class and she 13 under oath, tell me what your position is as to when you 14 asked me to go, and Fm almost positive that was my 14 went to Mr. Epstein's home. Now I've got senior year, 15 towards the end of my sophomore year. She was in my gym 15 junior or sophomore year, so my question -- 16 class. 16 A. It wasn't my senior year. I don't believe I 17 Q. That takes you now to your sophomore year? 17 remember going my senior year, so I'm pretty sure it was 18 A. Yes. 18 my sophomore year and then into my junior year. 19 Q. Okay. 19 Q. All right. Give me an approximate time. If 20 A. Yet 20 you are now claiming it's in your sophomore year, give 21 Q. Which would have been when? 21 me an approximate date when'. first approached you. 22 A. When I was 16. 22 A. I believe It was towards the end of my 23 Q. You were a senior -- lees just get the dates 23 sophomore year. 24 right You were senior as of August of 'OS — I'm 24 Q. We're talking about April, May? 25 sorry, of '04, correct? 25 A. The end. I really don't -- I can't answer Page 33 Page 41 1 A. Yes. 1 you, because I don't want to tell you something that 2 Q. And as of August of '04, you would have been 2 I — !just believe it was towards the end ofmy 3 17 years old as a senior; is that correct? 3 sophomore year. 4 A. Yes. 4 Q. If you look at Exhibit 1, paragraph nine says, 5 Q. Okay. So as a junior, you would have been 16 5 the last sentence says, "In or about 2004 Jane Doe"- 6 years old and you would have started in August of '03 to 6 which is you, Jane Doe 7 — am I saying that right, Jane 7 '04, right? 7 Doe 7? 8 A. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. If '05, 04-05 is your senior year and you were 9 Q. "then approximately I6 years old, fell into 10 17 during your whole senior year, is that correct? 10 Epstein's trap." 11 A. Yes. 11 Okay, you see that? 12 Q. All right. So you would have been 16 during 12 A. Uh huh. 13 your entire junior year? 13 Q. So at least the lawsuit that was filed 14 A. Uh huh. 14 initially, your amended complaint that was filed on 15 Q. Yes? 15 September -- Fm sorry, February 27 of'09, it alleges 16 A. Yes. 16 sometime in 2004, right? Which would have had to have 17 Q. Okay. But you just said. asked you to go 17 been after your sophomore year, but into your junior 18 to Mr. Epstein's house now when you were in your 18 year, correct? 19 sophomore year. 19 A. Yes. 20 A. Yes. 20 Q. So you are saying now that that complaint is 21 Q. Okay. So you would have been 15 then? 21 wrong? At least based on what you're claiming to be the 22 A. I guess so. I wasn't really going by age. I 22 truth today; is that right? 23 was just trying to remember when she was in my gym 23 A. I told you 'couldn't remember correctly if it 24 class, and I can't remember if it was my sophomore or my 24 was my sophomore or my junior year when she was in my 25 junior year. 25 gym class, so — 11 (Pages 38 to 41) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107809 Page 42 Page 44 1 Q. So now you are saying it realty could be the 1 these interrogatories and you understood that, true? junior year? 2 A. Uh huh, yes. 3 A. I really, I really don't know. I can't 3 Q. All right. And it says, the question is "List 4 remember. I just icutemlmr her being in my gym class 4 all dates you allege you were at Mr. Epstein's home in 5 asking me to go. 5 Florida. Include the date, time arrived and left, the 6 Q. So maybe it's '03, maybe its '04, maybe it's 6 name of anyone else who went with you to the home, when 7 '05, you are just not sure? 7 you were there, the time spent with Mr. Epstein, and the 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 names and addresses of individuals who were present in 9 THE WITNESS: Ifs not '05. It was either 9 the house with Mr. Epstein and you." 10 2003, I'm pretty sure it was 2003 — or 2002 or 10 Okay. And why don't you read for the ladies 11 2003 through 2004. it wasn't 2005 at all. 11 and gentlemen of the jury what your answer was, at least 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 the first part of the answer. 13 Q All right. Let me show you what I'll mark as 13 A. "Plaintiff went to the defendant's estate 14 Exhibit 2. 14 approximately eight to ten times during her junior and 15 (The doe-meta was marked Defendant's Exhibit 15 senior years ofhigh school, from 2004 to 2005." 16 2 for identification.) 16 Q. All right. So you already told us that you 17 MR. CRiTTON: Here's extra copy for you. 17 lied to the police about certain aspects of your 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Okay. 18 statement. Are you now telling us that on January 23rd 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 of 2009 when you answered these interrogatories you were 20 Q. These are interrogatory answers that you 20 again lying about the dates you were at Mr. Epstein's 21 signed on January 23, 2008. Do you see that? 21 home? 22 A. Yes. 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 23 Q. Would you go to the second, go to the 23 THE WITNESS: I wasn't lying at all. I, I 24 second-to-last page. 24 told you before i don't exactly remember the exact 25 MR. HOROWITZ: What, is there a question? 25 dates. 2 Page 43 Page 45 1 MR. CRITTON: Yes, go to the last page, 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 second to last page. 2 Q Well, you're giving this information -- 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 A. I know I went my junior year. I don't 4 Q. The is a signature there that says go to 4 remember if it started my sophomore — i think it ended 5 the second-to-last page, please, ma'am. These are 5 my senior. I just, Pm telling the truth. I don't know 6 plaintiff Jane Doe 7's, Ms. Jane Doc 7's answers to 6 exact dates. It's hard for me to remember. 7 first set or first interrogatories, correct? 7 Q. Do you even know what my question was? 8 A. Yes. 8 A. Yes, 1did. 9 Q. All right. And you see there is a 9 Q. You IM me ask one word and then you just 10 verification that says Jane Doe 7, "being duly sworn, 10 started talking. 11 deposes and says that the foregoing answers to 11 A. I'm sorry, you are just trying to make me out 12 interrogatories are true and correct to the best of her 12 to look like a liar when I told you I don't remember 13 knowledge, information and belief." 13 exact dates. 14 That's your signature, is it not? 14 Q. I'll make it very clear. I'm not trying to 15 A. Yes. 15 make you out as anything, all right? The record is 16 Q. It reflects "Sworn and subscribed to the 23rd 16 going to speak for itself whether you are telling the 17 day of January 20(18." in fact, I think it's 2009, based 17 bulb or not. Somebody else can judge that. That's not 18 upon the certificate page, because you didn't have a 18 my job. 19 lawsuit as of January of 2008. So I'm sure it was that 19 All I'm saying is at least in your answers to 20 same January issue that a lot ofpeople have, so let's 20 interrogatories, and I assume you completed these in 21 assume, we'll agree that it was January 23, 2009, 21 conjunction with your attorneys, right? You had t:..: 22 correct? 22 opportunity to sit with your attorneys? 23 A. Yes. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All tight. So then if you go to Question 24 Q. lo fact, you sat with Jessica Arbour at the 25 No. 15, again you're under oath again and swearing to 25 time, who is now an attorney with Mermelstein & 12 (Pages 42 to 45) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107810 Page 46 Page 48 Horowitz, correct? 1 THE WITNESS: Can you read that one more time, 2 A. Uh huh. 2 please? Sorry. 3 Q. Yes? 3 (A portion of the record was read by the 4 A. Yes. 4 Mom•) Q. And you understood in answering these 5 THE WITNESS: I definitely went when I was a 6 questions that you were to answer them to the best of 6 junior. I wasn't sure if I went when I was a 7 your ability. because you would be sworn that they were 7 sophomore, so yes. 8 truthful, correct? 8 BY PAR. CRITTON: 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. So now you were a junior. At least what 10 Q. All right So now we've got see if we can 10 you're saying today, separate and apart from what you 11 sort through this. 11 told the police officer, separate and apart flan what 12 Under oath, you told the police officers you 12 you put in your answers to interrogatories, separate and 13 were 17 when you came to Mr. Epstein's, which would have 13 apart from what you have previously testified today, 14 had to have been in .04, that is after lune 30th of 14 it's now your testimony under oath again that you went 15 2004, which would have put you after completion of your 15 sometime in your junior year, which would have been 16 junior year and into your senior year, right? That's at 16 what, in '04? 17 least what you told the police? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes, 18 Q. And your best recollection as to when you went 19 Q. In your answers to interrogatories you say you 19 would have been when? 20 went to Mr. Epstein's home 2004 and 2005, during both 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Which visit are you talking 21 your junior and senior years, correct? 21 about? 22 A. Yes. 22 MR. CANTON: First went to Mr. Epstein. 23 Q. And you've told us under oath here today that 23 MR. HOROWITZ: First went. 24 you may have gone to Mr. Epstein's when you were 15 as a 24 THE WITNESS: First was with 25 sophomore, you may have gone when you were 16 as a 25 Page 47 Page 49 1 junior, but you don't know? 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 A I think I put this because — 2 Q. I understand that's your testimony. Datewise, 3 Q. No, I'm not asking why you put that. 3 sometime in April or May of2004? 4 My question to you is that's what you've told 4 MR. HOROWITZ: No, she said end ofher 5 us at least today? 5 sophomore is her best - 6 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 6 MR. CRMON: No, she just said junior. Well, 7 THE WITNESS: I put this because I was sure 7 wait a minute, let's clear it up, Mr. Horowitz. 8 that I went my junior year. 1didn't remember if I 8 Lets go back and read it. 9 went my senior year and I didn't remember if I went 9 (A portion of the record was read by the 10 my sophomore year at all. Maybe towards the end, 10 reporter.) 11 lice I told you earlier. 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Right You are talking about 12 But I definitely remember going my Junior 12 the first visit there. You we talking about — 13 year. So that's maybe why 1left out the sophomore 13 MR. CRITTON: No,I'm talking about the first 14 year. I don't remember ifI went my sophomore 14 visit 15 year. I'm not saying that 1did. 1don't 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Okay. 16 remember. 16 MR. CRITTON: She said junior year and then 17 MR. CRITTON: Let me move to strike as 17 you said no, sophomore. 18 nonresponsive. 18 MR. HOROWITZ: No, but the question wasn't 19 Would you read the question back to her, 19 about — I'm not testifying. 20 please. 20 MR. CRITTON: I'll clear it up again. 21 (A portion of the record was read by the 21 MR. HOROWITZ; Please clear it up. 22 reporter.) 22 MR. CRITTON: Because she's all over the 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 world. She can give us Ifice 40 years here. 24 Q. Is that correct? 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Fonn. 25 Q. My question to you is is it your position that ••••erovinanWENSINIMilwas,••••........ 13 (Pages 46 to 49) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107811 Page 50 Page 52 1. you first went to Mr. Epstein's home in the latter part 1 Q. Okay, I'm asking you. I'm don't want to trick 2 of your junior year, which would have been sometime 2 you here. I just want to make certain that you 3 April, May of 2004? 3 understand — 4 A. When I first went there? 4 A. No, that's fine. I just wish we could move 5 Q. Yes, ma'am. 5 past this. 6 A. No. 6 Q. Then in paragraph 14 the allegation is that 7 Q. Okay, what is it now? 7 you and Pm paraphrasing -- is that you returned on 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 many occasions to Mr. Epstein's home over a period of 18 9 THE WITNESS: Wby did you try to trick me like to 24 months, right? 10 that when I told you — 10 A. Yes. 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 Q. All right So 18 to 24 months would be 12 Q. fin not trying to trick you. You have said 12 another year and a half to two years, which would now 13 about 19 different things. I'm going to ask a clean 13 be, based on what you are testifying today, would have 14 question so maybe we can get a clean answer from you 14 been sometime in '03 through sometime in '05, right? 15 here. 15 A. I suppose, yes. 16 My question to you is what is your position as 16 Q. Well, two years on to '03 takes me to '05, 17 to when you first went to Mr. Epstein's home? 17 right? I'm just doing the math, ma'am. 18 A. My position is I believe it was towards the 18 A. I honestly don't remember the dates and I 19 end of my sophomore year or the beginning of my junior 19 don't remember how many months exactly. I don't -- but 20 year. I don't really remember the exact dates. 20 if you go by this, then yes. 21 Q. If it was the end of your sophomore year, that 21 Q. Okay. 22 would have put it sometime in 2003, right? 22 A. I don't remember, I don't recall dates, and 23 A. Yes. 23 I'm sari, like I don't remember the first time I went 24 Q. Okay. If it was the beginning of your junior 24 there, I don't remember the date when I first went 25 year, it still would have been sometime in '03, but you 25 there. I don't remember the month. 'just remember Page 51 Page 53 1 would have now been 16 years old, correct? 1 being in gym class with -was the first time. 2 A. Yes. 2 Q. Then if I go to your answers to 3 Q. Whereas if it was the latter part of your 3 interrogatories, which are Exhibit 2, question 15, where 4 sophomore year, you would have been 15? 4 it says 'Plaintiff' — this is your answer under oath, 5 A. Yes. 5 okay? There is no lawyer. 6 Q. So the complaint, Exhibit I, where it says you 6 In fact, the only lawyers that were there were 7 first went in 2004, that's not true, correct? 7 Ms. Arbour, paralegal and now lawyer. So you are MR. HOROWITZ: Object to form. 8 certainly not — well, let me strike that 9 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 When you answered these interrogatories, you 10 Q. Well, let me go back to it again. 10 did them in conjunction as reflected in answer number 11 Paragraph nine where it says "In or about 2004 11 one with Ms. Arbour, who was a paralegal for the 12 Jane Doe, then approximately 16 years old, fell into 12 Mermelstein & Horowitz firm, correct? 13 Mr. Epstein's -- fell into Epstein's trap and became one 13 A. Yes. 14 of his victims." Okay? 14 Q. You weren't scared, were you? 15 The first time you were there now you are 15 A. No. 16 saying would have been in '03? 16 • Q. You weren't dazed? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 17 A. No. 18 BY MR. CRTTTON: 18 Q. You weren't confused? 19 Q. Right? 19 A. No. 20 A. The end of nw sophomore year, that's 2003, 20 Q. You had good presence of mind, you had the 21 yes. 21 ability to think about the question as long as you 22 Q. You tell me, okay? Please. Don't let me lead 22 wanted to, true? 23 you in that. You tell me what the end of your sophomore 23 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 24 year would have been, what year. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 A. Yes, if it was the end of 2003. 25 Ilffittl,YmeelaiiNito.1 14 (Pages 50 to 53) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107812 Page 54 Page 56 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 1 Q. And now you are saying that may not be right, 2 Q. All right. And at least in this answer under 2 I may have lied to them, right? 3 oath you said, 'Plaintiff went to defendant's estate 3 A. Yes. 4 approximately eight to ten times during her junior and 4 Q. All right. So you told them you went to 5 senior years of high school, from 2004 and 2005." 5 Mr. Epstein's home the first tint with 6 Right? 6 Was that true? 7 A. Uh huh. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yes? 8 Q. Why did you tell them that? 9 A. Yes. 9 A. Because that was the first time I went_ 10 Q. Okay. Now you said you also gave — well, let 10 Q. But why did you, if you were confused and 11 me strike that. Let me stay with the police statement 11 scared, why didn't you just tell the police you never 12 that you gave a minute. 12 went to Mr. Epstein's home if you didn't want to get in 13 Now the first time went to Mr. Epstein's 13 trouble? 14 home, you went with is that true? 14 If you were one of the first people that they 15 A. Yes. 15 were lancing to and no one had clued you in that they 16 Q. Okay. And did you — and I'm going to come 16 were talking to anyone else, why didn't you just tell 17 back and ask a lot more questions about this. I just 17 the police officers if you were going to lie, 9 never 18 want to get what you told the Palm Beach Police 18 went to Epstein's house, I don't know what you are 19 Department under oath. 19 talking about"? 20 You told them that you went with. Did you 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 go upstairs on the very first visit to Mr. Epstein's 21 THE WITNESS: Because they pretty much sounded 22 home? 22 like they knew that I already went, from what they 23 MR. HOROMTIZ: Tin sorry, are you asking 23 told me. And they said they have records ofmy car 24 ha — 24 being there, and they pretty much said they already 25 MR. CRITTON: What she told the police. 25 knew I went. So that is why I told them, you know, Page 55 Page 57 1 MR HOROWITZ: Do you understand he's asking 1 that the first time that I went with. 2 what you told the police? 2 And I just didn't tell them everything about 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 when I went the other times. 4 Q. The Palm Beach Police Department. And again, 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 let's put it back in the scenario that you told me. 5 Q. So you actually drove your car to You get a call from your mom, the Palm Beach 6 Mr. Epstein's? police are there to interview you. You drive home for 7 A. I don't remember if I drove the first time, 8 five minutes. The four of you, including your mother, 8 no. 9 are outside talking. They want to ask questions about 9 Q. I'm not saying the first time, but you 10 Mr. Epstein. 10 actually drove to Mr. Epstein's on your own? it You make the decision to send Morn inside, 11 A. Yes. 12 correct? 12 Q. So you had to actually get in your car, make a 13 A. Yes. 13 decision to go to Mr. Epstein's, and you went by 14 Q. Okay. That's where we are. Do the three of 14 yourself on occasions? 15 you sit down? 15 A. I don't remember if I ever went by myself, but 16 A. Yes. 16 yes. Usually. was with me. 17 Q. So you are sitting down with the other two 17 Q. Usually. Always? 18 police officers, and as they are taking your sworn 18 A. Not always. 19 statement and talking to you, you told them -- they 19 Q. Okay. By the way, did you really go eight to 20 asked you when is the first time you went to 20 ten times to Mr. Epstein's house? 21 Mr. Epstein's house, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 Q. They ask you how old you were, and at least 23 A. That I remember. 24 they reflect that you told them 17, correct? 24 Q. At least in the interrogatory, Exhibit 2 that 25 A. Yes. 25 we talked about, question 15, you are saying its wrong I 15 (Pages 54 to 57) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107813 Page 58 Page E , with regard to 20042005 time period, but you are saying 1 Q. 71te rust time you went, you went withEl 2 at least it's right with regard to the number of times 2 right? 3 you went; is that correct? 3 A. Yes. 1 A. I said I don't remember the exact dates and 4 Q. Let me get back to my question. They seemed 5 years. 5 to know that you were at Mr. Epstein's home, that is, Q. Well, if it's 2004 and 2005, it would be at 6 the police officers? 7 the end of your junior year, latter part of your junior 7 A. Yes. 8 year into your senior year, correct? 8 Q. Because they had seen your car there? 9 A. Yes. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. So, and I thought you told me five 10 Q. All right. And so if your car was them, l 11 minutes ago that that time period was not correct, or 11 assume you don't let other people drive your car 12 now you are not so sure again. 12 generally? 13 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 13 Let me ask this question. Did you ever let 14 THE WITNESS: I told you that I didn't 14 any other person drive your car to Mr. Epstein's home? 15 remember the dates. And I do remember going there 15 A. No. 16 from eight to ten times, but I don't remember the 16 Q. Okay. So you in each of those instances would 17 exact dates of when I started going there. 17 have had to make the voluntary decision that you were 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 18 going to go to Mr. Epstein's home, right? 19 Q. Okay. That's my question to you is you don't 19 A- Yes. 20 remember the exact dates, but at least that part of the 20 Q. All right. So you told than on the first 21 interrogatory where it says the number of times you 21 occasion you went with- right? 22 went, you think that's maybe accurate? 22 A. Yes. 23 A. Yes, it is accurate. 23 Q. And what did you tell them who. was? 24 Q. Eight to ten times, okay. Well, you told the 24 A. She was a friend in high school. 25 police, the Palm Beach Police Department when you were 25 Q. All right. So you went with. She was a Page 59 Page 61 1 interviewed that you only went two times, didn't you? 1 friend. She was a good friend at the time? 2 A. Yes, I already admitted that I did not tell 2 A I don't remember if she was a good friend. I 3 them the whole truth. 3 think we were fighting. Me and her like would fight a 4 Q. I know. Well, what I'm trying to do is figure 4 lot and then make up. So I don't remember if we were 5 out how many things you told them that may have been 5 good friends at the time or just friends. 6 true, that is -- well, let me strike that. 6 Q. Okay. Good friend is someone you trust, have 7 Pm trying to find out now from looking at the 7 almost complete faith in? That's not a play on words 8 police report what you told them may have been true 8 with your name, but would you consider a good friend 9 versus what was not true or might be a half truth or 9 someone that you would feel very comfortable with and 10 something that you omitted. That's what I'm trying to 10 you could trust? 11 do here, okay? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. Okay. 12 Q. Okay. And if it was just a friend, maybe you 13 Q. Do you understand that? 13 would trust and maybe you wouldn't? 14 A. Yes. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. So we know it's your testimony now 15 Q. So you go with who you have now 16 that you lied to them about your age. Did you lie to 16 described as a friend, someone you might trust or not 17 them about the number of times you went to Mr. Epstein's 17 trust, right? 18 home, they being the Palm Beach Police Department? 18 A. Yes. 19 A. I told you I didn't tell them all the times I 19 Q. To Mr. Epstein's home. Again, I'm going to 20 went. I only told them two. 20 get into details later. 21 Q. Well, you told them you went only two times? 21 So you go to Mr. Epstein's home the first 22 A. Yes. 22 time, and what happens, or what did you tell the police, 23 Q. Is that a lie? 23 your best recollection? 24 A. I told you yes. I told you at the very 24 A. I just remember I told them that I went there 25 beginning. 25 and I saw the cooks there, I sawn. 16 (Pages 58 to 61) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107814 Page 62 Page 64 1 I just remember that I, like 1 told them how I 1 with Jeffrey Epstein by phone? 2 went upstairs and I did the massage. And I don't think 2 A. I don't remember. 3 I went into detail with them about what happened. 3 Q. Can you cite any instances to me where you 4 Q. So -- I'm sorry. 4 think that maybe you spoke with him or you just have no 5 MR. HOROWITZ: Go ahead 5 recollection of having spoken with him? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember going into 6 A. I don't remember if he ever called me or 7 detail with them about what happened. 7 didn't call me, honestly. I remember talking to Sarah. 8 And then I also remember going once with., 8 Q. Have you ever totted Mr. Epstein or has he 9 and I think I told there about that orM. 9 ever totted you? 10 Honestly, I don't -- 10 A. No. 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 Q. Have you ever spoken or communicated through a 12 Q. So I'm clear, at least you told the police 12 computer in any way with Mr. Epstein, either he to you 13 officers, your best recollection of what you told the 13 or you to him? 14 police officers, the first time you went to 14 A. No. 15 Mr. Epstein's home, you went there wide you met 15 Q. Would it be a correct statement that the only 16 the cook, you met El? 16 conversations that you have ever had with Mr. Epstein 17 A. Yes. 17 would have been at Mr. Epstein's home? 18 Q. Do you know who is? 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 19 A. Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, as to what I can remember, 20 Q. Who ism 20 yes. 21 A. Jeffreys assistant. 21 BY MR. CRTITON: 22 Q. And how do you know that? 22 Q. Well, again, you are here under oath. You 23 A. Because she is the one that would call me 23 knew you were going to be deposed? 24 every time she wanted me to come there, and she would 24 A. Yes. 25 always be there doing, making calls. She would call 25 Q. So at least as you sit here today thinking Page 63 Page 65 1 other girls too. 1 back over the time that you knew Mr. Epstein, it's your 2 Sol assume that she was his assistant. She 2 best recollection as you sit here today that you have 3 also told me about how to set up the massage table and 3 never spoken with him except at his home; is that true? 4 other things like that 4 A My best recollection, yes. 5 Q. How do you know called other females? S Q. You have never, and would it also be true that 6 A. 1 know because they told me. 6 you never saw Mr. Epstein other than at his home? 7 Q. Who is the they? 7 A. I saw him on the beach before jogging with 8 A. Jane Doe 4. 8 where he came over and said hi to me. 9 Q. Jane Doe 4? 9 Q. Were you on the beach at the time? 10 A 1.1h huh. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Yes? 11 Q. Who were you there with? 12 A And L.A., yes. 12 A I forget. Just one of my girlfriends. 13 Q. LA. who? 13 Q. You used to go to Palm Beach beach, the beach 14 A L.A. 14 in Palm Beach from time to time? 15 Q. Okay. Jane Doe 4 and L.A., are they still 15 A. Yes. 16 friends of yours? 16 Q. From the time you were a young girl up 17 A. Yes. 17 probably even through now? 18 Q. Good friends of yours? 18 A. Uh huh, yes. 19 A Jane Doe 4 is, yes. 19 Q. All rid& So one time you saw him on the 20 Q. How about L.A., what's her status these days? 20 beach with NM, he said hello to you? 21 A Just a friend. 21 A Yeah, he came over and said hi and asked me 22 Q. Would It be a correct statement that you have 22 bow I was. And he just said he was jogging. He had his 23 never spoken with Mr. Epstein by phone? 23 jogging outfit on. 24 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. Is that the extent of the conversation? 25 Q. As you sit here today, have you ever spoken 25 A. From what I can remember. I don't know, it 17 (Pages 62 to 65) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107815 Page 66 Page 68 1 was like a long time ago. I don't — 1 touch your buttocks, correct? 2 Q. And you talked to him? 2 A. Yes. 3 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And that's all he touched was your 4 Q. He said "Hi, how are your 4 buttocks, correct? 5 A. Uh huh. 5 MR.. HOROWITZ: Form. Again, you are talking 6 Q. Yes? • 6 about the conversation? 7 A. Yes. 7 BY MR. CRITTON: 8 Q. And did you, was that after you stopped going 8 Q. Only what you told the Palm Beach police. 9 to Mr. Epstein's house or during the time that you were 9 A. As to what I can remember, Pm not — if you 10 going to Mr. Epstein's house that you saw him jogging on 10 could show me, I don't exactly remember. 11 the beach? 11 Q. I'm asking your best recollection. Pm 12 A. I don't exactly remember when it was. I think 12 !with% at the police report. 13 It was when I was still going. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Okay. So the only time that you've ever 14 Q. Did you also tell the Palm Beach police that 15 spoken with Mr. Epstein outside of his home would have 15 at no time did he touch any of your private areas? 16 been the one time you saw him out jogging on the beach 16 A. I don't remember telling them that he did. 17 and you were at the beach over in Palm Beach, correct? 17 Q. Okay. In fact, you told them he 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 specifically — they asked you, did he touch, did he 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I thought I saw him in Key 19 touch you in your private main your vaginal area, 20 West once, but T wasn't sure that was him. But 20 and you said no, correct? 21 yeah, other than that, yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. And they asked you whether he had touched your 23 Q. Okay. You have never traveled with 23 breast, and you said no, correct? 24 Mr. Epstein? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 A. No. 25 Q. Aloha whatever ultimately, whatever the Page 67 Page 69 1 Q. And Mr. Epstein has never flown you or asked 1 statement says, that's what you would have told them. 2 you to travel anyplace, has he, where you traveled? 2 If I ask you to assume that that's at least 3 A. No. 3 the information that they have is that he did not touch 4 Q. That's correct? 4 you in any, quote, unquote, private area, that would be 5 A. Yes. 5 accurate? 6 Q. All right. First time, at least what you told 6 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 7 the police officers, your best recollection is that you 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 went over there with you went upstairs, and you 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 gave Mr. Epstein a massage, correct? 9 Q. That's what you had told them? 10 A. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q Okay. And during the cause of the massage, 11 Q. And you didn't touch him in any of his private 12 you kept your clothes on, true? 12 areas, did you? 13 A. I believe that's what I told them. 13 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 14 Q. All right. And you also told the police that 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 at no then did he try to touch you or did he touch you, 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 16 correct? 16 Q. In fact, in any of the visits you ever went to 17 A. I told them that he did try to touch my butt. 17 Mr. Epstein's home, you never touched him in his genital 18 Q. Okay. He did try? 18 area, did you? 19 A. Or he did, l think' said. 19 A. No. 20 Q. What's the difference between trying and 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. Pm sorry, Pm doing 21 touching? 21 this to have a clear record, because you stern to be 22 A. I don't exactly remember the words I said. I 22 drifting between — 23 think I did tell them that he did. 23 MR. CRITTON: Pm not drifting. Pm asking 24 Q. So its now your testimony that you recall 24 specific questions. 25 telling the Palm Beach Police Department that he did 25 MR HOROWITZ: I understand, but you arc Ia 7210 Ow• • • 18 (Pages 66 to 69) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561} 832-7506 EFTA01107816 Page 70 Page 72 alternating between the conversation versus events. 1 that you received any money for having given Mr. Epstein 2 MR. CRITTON: Is that a form? 2 a massage? 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Yes. 3 A. I believe I told them I did. 4 MR CRTITON: Ern not trying to trick her. 4 Q. Okay. So you got money for doing a massage, 5 BY MR CRITTON: 5 although there was nothing of a sexual nature that was 6 Q. You understand when I said on all of the 6 involved at all, at least what you told the Palm Beach 7 visits you went to Mr. Epstein's home, you never touched 7 police, correct? 8 his private areas, his genital area, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. Had you ever given a massage for money before? 10 Q. Now I'm asking away from the Palm Beach police 10 A. No. 11 statement. You understood that, didn't you? 11 Q. Had you given massages before? 12 A. Yes. I did not. 12 A. Just to friends. 13 Q. Same questions now. 13 To boys and girls, males and females? 14 Now I'm away from the statements you gave 14 A. Yes. 15 under oath to the Palm Beach Police Department 15 Q. Did you ever receive money for giving a 16 At no time did you touch any of his genital 16 massage before? 17 area, correct? 17 A. No. 18 A. Yes. 18 Q. And how much money did you get from 19 Q. All right. At no time did you have sexual 19 Mr. Epstein? 20 intercourse with Mr. Epstein, correct? 20 A. $200. 21 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did he hand it to you? 22 MR HOROWITZ: Form. 22 A. Yes. 23 BY MR. CR1TTON: 23 Q. After the first occasion — and again, 24 Q. At no time did you have any oral or anal sex 24 back to what you told the Palm Beach police. 25 with Mr. Epstein, correct? 25 On the second occasion what did you tell the, ?age 71 Page 73 1 A. Yes. that is, the second time you went to Mr. Epstein's, I 2 Q. At no time did Mr. Epstein in any way 2 think you said you tolighe P&each Police Department 3 penetrate any portion of your vaginal area, did he? 3 you we •Cher with MI or 4 A. I mean he did touch it and I wouldn't — 4 A. 5 penetrate with what? 5 Q. 6 Q. With either an object or his fingers. At no 6 A. Well, yes. 7 time did Mr. Epstein ever penetrate your vagina with 7 Q. You either went withIllor •right? 8 either his or an object, did he? A. Yes. 9 A. 9 Q. How did you get to Mr. Epstein's? What did 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Let her fmish. 10 you tell the police? Getting back to what you told the 11 11 police. 12 13 14 15 BY MR. CRITTON: Q. But you didn't let him, did you? 12 13 14 15 ir A. I don't exactly remember. I think I said I drove there. Q. Okay. A. I think go the second time? went, yes. I don't retnem Q. So it would have been the three of you, 16 16 17 17 you — well a sure, but you would have gone 18 Q. He never penetrated, did he? 18 and either or MI right? 19 A. No. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now back to the police statement or the 20 Q. And maybe 21 statement that you gave to the Palm Beach police. You 21 A. Yes. 22 told them that you only went to Mr. Epstein's borne — 22 Q. And you think you drove? 23 well, let me strike that. Let me stay with the first 23 MR. HOROWITZ: Fame. 24 occasion. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 25 On the first occasion did you tell the police 25 19 (Pages 70 to 73) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107817 Page 74 Page 76 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 1 A. Somebody that gets paid for sex, I guess. I 2 Q. And when you went the second time, what was, 2 don't know. 3 at least what did you tell the police you were there for 3 Q. What's the difference between a pimp and a 4 the second time? 4 prostitute, in your mind? 5 A. I believe they asked me if I brought anybody 5 A A pimp brings somebody to have sex with 6 there. And I believe I said I brought one of the. 6 somebody else. 7 7 Q. And get paid, and gets paid for it? 8 Q. 'Mere is two? 8 A. Yes. 9 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you ever consider yourself to be a 10 Q. 10 pimp? 11 A. 11 A. No, not at all. 12 Q. Were they both friends of yours? 12 Q. Did you ever bring - 13 A. Yes. 13 A. No, absolutely not. 14 Q. Good friends or just friends? 14 Q. Did you ever bring someone to Mr. Epstein's 15 A. Friends. 15 house so that they — 16 Q. Okay. And how about watt she a friend or 16 A. If I ever would have thought -- 17 a good friend? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Wait for the question. 18 A. A Blend. 18 MR. CRI17ON: Go ahead. 19 Q. The police asked you if you brow t somebod , 19 MR. HOROWITZ: No,there is no question 20 and you said yes, I brought either 20 pending. 21 correct? 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 A. Yes. 22 Q. Tell me what you think. 23 Q. And did the police ask you why you brought 23 MR. HOROWITZ: About what? 24 somebody? 24 MR. CRITTON: What you were just going to 25 A. Yes. They asked me if I had brought somebody 25 give. Don't interrupt her. Page 75 Page 77 1 and got paid for bringing somebody. 1 MR. HOROWffZ: There is no question pending. 2 Q. And did you, did you in fact get paid for 2 MR. CRITTON: I'm asking a question. Don't 3 having brought someone? 3 interrupt her when she is answering. Wait a 4 A. Yes. 4 minute, let me just finish and then you can give 5 Q. Okay. And what were you getting paid for? your little speech too. o A. Bringing somebody there. 6 You haven't had any problem letting her give 7 Q. Okay. Did the police ask you if you were 7 an answer and extending her answer when it has procuring people for giving a massage? 8 nothing to do with anything. Now she is giving an 9 A. Can you say that again? 9 answer and you don't like it, so you are chopping 10 Q. Soliciting. Were you procuring someone? Were 10 her off. 11 you trying to get, hire someone or obtain someone -- 11 MR. HOROWITZ: No, no, I don't even know what 12 A. I wasn't Dying to hire them. I just told 12 she's going to say. 13 them about it and then they would go there and I mean -- 13 MR. CRITTON: Exactly, so let her talk. She's 14 yeah, so they never said hiring. 14 responding to my question. 15 Q. Who is they? 15 MR. HOROWITZ: No, the way a deposition wales 16 A. The police never used that term. 16 is there is questions and answers. Sometimes the 17 Q. Did the police ever ask you if you knew what a 17 questions go in different directions, sometimes the 18 pimp was? 18 answers go in different directions, but at no point 19 A. No. 19 should somebody be answering something when there 20 Q. Okay. Did you know back then what a pimp was? 20 is no question pending. 21 A. Net really. 21 MR. CRITTON: Rachel, would you read back the 22 Q. What do you think a pimp is? 22 question and answer. 23 A. I really hope you don't make this connection 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can we take a break soon? 24 tome, but I know what a pimp is and — 24 MR. CRITTON: I want to — how much time do we 25 Q. Tell me what you think a pimp is. 25 have? 20 (Pages 74 to 77) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107818 Page 78 Page 80 1 (A portion of the record was read by the 1 said. I just remember telling them in general like what I 2 reporter.) 2 happened. 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 Q. All right. So if the police report, their 4 Q. Tell me what you thought. What were you going 4 probable cause affidavit says that the second occasion 5 to say to me about if you ever thought what? 5 you went, the only other occasion you went, that you 6 A. I don't really — I mean I think we should 6 went withE. and Jane Doe 4, you just don't remember just move on. I don't 7 that as you sit here? a Q. So you don't remember what your thought was 8• A. I — now you jogged my memory. I didn't 9 now? 9 remember what exactly 1told them. It was seven years 10 A. I mean I don't want you to try to change it 10 ago. 11 around to make me look — 11 Q. Actually it was in 2005. We're in 2010, so it 12 Q. Not trying to change it. lin just trying to 12 was something less than five years ago. 13 get what you were going to say. 13 A. Sorry, five. It was a while ago. !just — 14 A. If I ever would have thought that Jeffrey 14 Q. Again, when you gave the statement to the 15 would have done half the things I know that he did now 15 police in October, on October 4th of 2005, that was very 16 to people, I never would have asked anybody to go there. 16 close to when you would have been at Mr. Epstein's home, 17 MR. CRITTON: Okay. Let's save that thought 17 again depending on what year you choose, but as you say, 18 and take a break. 18 five years closer than today, correct? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 19 A. Yes. 20 11:15 a.m. 20 Q. All right. Now do you remember telling the 21 (A recess was taken.) 21 police on the second occasion that you went is that you 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:. We're back on the record at 22 did not provide a massage to Mr. Epstein? 23 11:24 a.m. 23 A. Yeah, I think I just said I went with 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 somebody. I remember just going once with. and not 25 Q. Back to the statement — in fact, lees go 25 doing anything, just sitting in the kitchen while she Page 79 Page 81 1 back to your statement. Well, lees stick with — lets 1. went up there and did the massage. 2 start again. Pm going to stay with what you told the 2 Q. All right. Do you also remember telling the 3 Palm Beach police. 3 police at no time did Mr. Epstein remove the towel 4 On the second occasion when you went, the 4 sound his body? 5 second and last occasion you told the Palm Beach police 5 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 6 you went to ht. E in's home. I think you said you 6 THE WITNESS: I believe 1 said he just like 7 think a. drove, may have gone, may not have, and 7 laid it over him, yes. B either n or went, correct? 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 A. I don't remember. I guess correct. 9 Q. Right. And you also told the police at no 10 Q. And when you went the second time, did you 10 time did he masturbate, true? 11 tell the police the second and last time, did you tell 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 them what occurred on the second time? 12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if I told the 13 A. I don't remember. 13 police that or not. 14 Q. What's your best recollection as to what you 14 BY MR. CRITTON: 15 did tell them? 15 Q. But if you told them that, was that true? 16 A. I don't remember. 16 A. If I told them that he never masturbated? 17 Q. Did you remember telling them on the second 17 Q. Yes, meam. 18 time that you went let me strike that. 18 A. Absolutely not. 19 Do you remember telling them on the second 19 Q. So again, that would have been something else 20 occasion that you took, that you went withEl and 20 now you are saying that you would have lied to the 21 another girl named Jane Doe 4? 21 police about? 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Wait, form. What you aro doing 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 is totally disingenuous. The objection is to form. 24 Q. Do you remember saying that to the police? 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 25 A. I told you I don't remember exactly what I 25 Q. If I were to ask you to assume that you told 21 (Pages 78 to 81) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107819 Page 82 Page 84 1 the police at no time did you see Mr. Epstein 1 A. I told her what happened and asked her if she masturbate, would that have been a lie? 2 talked to the police, and I can't remember if she talked 3 A. Can you repeat that? 3 to than or not. 4 Q. Sure. Well, PI I have Rachel read it back, 4 Q. Did you tell her that you had lied to the dam• 5 police? 6 (A portion of the record was read by the 6 A. I told her I didn't tell the police 7 reporter•) 7 everrilin& 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 Q Did you tell her — my question was did you THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 tell her 10 BY MR. CRITFON: 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. From October 4th through 2005, including the 11 Q. Let me ask the question so it's clear. 12 filing of your complaint, your amended complaint, your 12 Did you tell Jane Doe 4 that you had lied to 13 interrogatories, supplemental answer to interrogatories, 13 the police? 14 having talked with the FBI as you described earlier, did 14 A. I don't remember. 15 you ever go back and tell the Palm Beach police or offer 15 Q You are aware that Jane Doe 4 is a plaintiff, 16 to go back and tell the Palm Beach police that you had 16 she's also bringing a suit for $50 million or something 17 lied and you now wanted to tell them the truth? 17 against Mr. Epstein, correct? 18 A. No. I told the FBI that. I had told the FBI 18 A. Yes. 19 that I lied to the Palm Beach police, and I figured that 19 Q. Okay. You are aware that she's represented by 20 they would tell the Palm Beach police exactly what 20 your current attorneys? 21 happened 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. CRITTON: Move to strike. Let me ask you 22 Q. Okay. How did you find out that Jane Doe 4 23 my question again. 23 had brought a lawsuit against Mr. Epstein? 24 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 A. She told me. 25 Q. At any time did you ever go back from 25 Q. Okay. When did she tell you? Page 83 Page 85 1 October 4, 2005, up through the filing of your 1 A. When we were up, living up in Orlando 2 complaint, your answers to interrogatories, your 2 together. 3 supplemental answers to interrogatories, up through 3 Q. And during what time period were you and Jane 4 today, have you ever gone back to the Palm Beach Police 4 Doe 4 living in Orlando together? 5 Department and said "I'd like to correct my testimony, 5 A. It was about a year ago, in the summer she 6 because I lied to you"? 6 moved up there. 7 it No. I told you I told the FBI - 7 Q. Okay. 8 Q. I don't want to know — go ahead. Just a yes A. So 9 a no is fine that question. 9 Q. Sometime in 2008? 10 A. No. 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Foot 11 Q. And what brought up the fact that she had 12 BY MR. CItITTON: 12 filed a lawsuit? 13 Q. Thank you. 13 A. I don't remember. 14 All right, at some point-- well, let me go 14 Q. You had not brought a lawsuit until 15 back to the police. You talked to the police for an 15 September 10, 2008. So Jane Doe 4's lawsuit was filed 16 hour, hour and a half. You never spoke with them again. 16 before yours, correct? 17 correct? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: If you know. 18 A. (Witness nods head up and down.) 18 BY MR. CRIT1PON: 19 Q. Okay. Did you call any of your friends and 19 Q. Til ask you to assume that date. 20 tell them that, that you had spoken to the police? Did 20 MR. HOROWITZ: If you know. 21 you call Jane Doe 4? 21 THE WITNESS: I guess, yes. I don't know. 22 A. Yes. 22 BY MR. CR1TTON: 23 Q. Why? Why did you call Jane Doe 4? 23 Q. She said she had filed a lawsuit. Did she say 24 A. Because she is one of my good friends. 24 why? 25 Q. What did you tell her? 25 A. I don't think so. 22 (Pages 82 to 85) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107820 Page 86 Page 88 Q. Did she tell you why she had brought a 1 Q. Before she went back to Lynn University? 2 lawsuit? 2 A. Yes. 3 A. No. I mean I knew what happened between her 3 Q. And what, when she was up there, was it just and Jeffrey, some of it, so I just figured it was 4 the two ofyou living in the apartment? because of what happened. 5 A There were two other girls. o Q. Okay. Well, Jane Doe 4, you knew what lane 6 Q. Who were they? Doe 4 was doing at Mr. Epstein's during the time she was 7 A. I forget what girls we were living with at the' going to Mr. Epstein's, true? 8 time. I don't remember what girls we were living with. 9 ML HOROWITZ: Form. 9 I think, because a lot of the girls left to go out of 10 THE WITNESS: I didn't know everything that 10 town, so — I don't know. 11 was going on. 11 Q. All right. So sometime May through August of 12 BY MR. CRITION: 12 '08 she, Jane Doe 4, was living there with you? 13 Q. She was telling you, though, some of the 13 A. Yes. 14 things that were going on, correct? 14 Q. All right. And she told you during that time 15 A. A little bit, yes. 15 that she had filed a lawsuit against Mr. Epstein? 16 Q. When do you believe Jane Doe 4 started going 16 A. Yes. 17 to Mr. Epstein's? 17 Q. Okay. Did she tell you who her lawyers were? 18 A. I don't really know. Fm assuming around the 18 A. 'don't think so. 19 same time I did. 19 Q. What did she tell you about the lawsuit? 20 Q. Do you know whether she went before or after 20 A. She didn't tell me much. She just said she 21 you for the first time? 21 was filing a lawsuit against him. 22 A. I think she went after me. I'm not sure, 22 Q. Did she say why? 23 though. 23 A. No. She — no,!just assumed because it was 24 Q. And what makes you think she, Jane Doe 4, went 24 what happened. 25 after you? 25 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, did you say "Well, Jane Doe Page 87 Page 89 , 1 A. I don't know. I don't remember exactly. 1 4, you went ova there voluntarily. Why would you file 2 Q. Did you ever talk to Jane Doe 4, when 2 a lawsuit? 3 asked you if you wanted to go to Mr. Epstein's, did you 3 MR.HOROWITZ: Form. 4 ever, at that time were you aware that Jane Doe 4 had 4 THE WITNESS: No, I never said that. 5 gone? 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 6 A. I don't remember. 6 Q. Did you say to her "You know, you got paid 7 Q. Were you, other than -who you knew had 7 money while you went. Why would you file a lawsuit when 8 gone, were you aware of anyone else who had gone to 8 you knew" — strike that. 9 Mr. Epstein's at the time you first wan? 9 Did Jane Doe 4 ever tell you how many times 10 A. No, I don't think so. 10 she went to Mr. Epstein's home? 13. _Q. All right. So let's get back to 2008, and 11 A. No. 12 MI— I'm sorry, Jane Doe 4 was living with you in 12 Q. Did she tell you what happened at 13 Orlando during the summer of 2008? 13 Mr. Epstein's home on any of the visits? 14 A. (Witness nods bead up and down.) 14 A. Briefly. 15 Q. Yes? 15 Q. What did she tell you? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. Told me about how he asked her to go on a trip 17 Q. For how long a time period? 17 with her — or with him, but I saw the underwear that he 18 A. Just for the summer. 18 bought her and I remember him gettingher a car. And 19 Q. Are we talking June through August? 19 just briefly, I mean we didn't go into detail that much. 20 A. I think March through May. 20 Q. So you and Jane Doe 4 have been great, best 21 Q. Of '08? 21 friends since when? 22 A. Oh, no, no, sorry, it was May yeah, 22 A. Well, we've been good friends since my 23 probably May through August. I don't really remember. 23 freshman year ofhigh school. 24 It was during the summer, before her classes started 24 Q. Which would have been '02? 25 again. 25 A. I believe so. 23 (Pages 86 to 89) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107821 Page 90 Page 92 1 Q. AR right. So from 2002 up through the 1 seem to be disturbed in any way about that? 2 current time, March of 2010, you and Jane Doe 4 have 2 A. Yeah, she thought it was kind of weird. 3 been best friends, correct? 3 Q. Did you say 'Well, gee, when he bought the 4 A. Yes. 4 underwear for you, did you ever go back to Mr. Epstein's 5 Q. All right. And you said I asked you if Jane 5 if you thought that was so weird?" 6 Doe 4 told you why she filed a lawsuit, and you said 6 Did you ask that question? 7 well, she told me about some of the things that 7 A. No, I did not. 8 happened. You say that, one of the aspects you said is 8 Q. Okay. Is it your testimony that based upon 9 Mr. Epstein asked her to go on a trip with him, right? 9 the fact that she, Jane Doe 4, related to you that it 10 That's what she told you? 10 was weird that Mr. Epstein had bought her underwear, you 11 A. Yes. 11 would have assumed then, based on her comment to you, 12 MR. HOROWITZ: FORM 12 that she never would have returned to Mr. Epstein's 13 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 after that point because she thought it was weird, 14 Q. Okay. Did she? 14 coned? 15 A. No. 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. 16 Q. All right. And did she tell you why she 16 THE WITNESS: I don't remember what exactly 17 didn't go on the trip with him? 17 she thought. 18 A. No. 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 Q. All right. And she said that Mr. Epstein also 19 Q. What was her reaction to, at least what she 20 bought her some underwear? 20 purportedly told you, that Mr. Epstein had bought her a 21 A. Yes. 21 sex toy? 22 Q. All right. Did she wear it? 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Pam. 23 A. I don't lmow if she did or not 23 ME WITNESS: I think she just thought it was 24 Q. So he bought her underwear and what's, what 24 inappropriate. 25 was, what in your mind was I'd say inappropriate or 25 Page 91 Page 93 1 shocking at least as Jane Doe 4 related to you as, that 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Mr. Epstein brought her underwear? What was the problem 2 Q. And did she describe what the sex toy was? 3 with that? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 A. I think he bought her like a sex toy or 4. Q. Did she tell you whether it was a vibrator 5 something too. I just thought it was weird that an old 5 a -- 6 man or older guy, sorry, would do that. 6 A. I don't think it was a vibrator, but I don't 7 Q. Okay. Did you think, did she tell you that 7 remember. she wore the underwear? 8 Q. And you knew what a vibrator was in 2008, 9 A. She never told me. 9 correct? 10 Q. Did she tell you, did she describe a sex toy 10 A. Yes. 11 that she alleges that Mr. Epstein bought for her? 11 Q. Did you know what a vibrator was in 2007? 12 A. No. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did she tell you she used it? 13 Q. In 2006? 14 A. I didn't go into the sexual details with her. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Did she tell you she used it and she 15 Q. And since when? How long have you known what 16 enjoyed it? 16 a vibrator is? 17, A. She never told me that she used it and enjoyed 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 it. 18 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 19 Q. Would that have made a difference to you? 19 BY MR. CRITTON: 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 Q. Were you aware of what a vibrator was when you 21 THE WITNESS: No. 21 were a freshman in high school? 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. Did the fact, separate and apart from your 23 Q. How about a sophomore? 24 opinion, the fact that Jane Doe 4 said he had bought, 24 A. I don't really remember when I knew, found out p..5 be, Mr. Epstein had bought underwear for her, did she 25 what that was. 24 (Pages 90 to 93) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107822 Page 94 Page 96 1 Q. Well, certainly she, meaning lane Doe 4, is 1 MR. HOROWITZ: Pam. 2 telling you that he brought her a vibrator, and she 2 THE WITNESS: Weird and inappropriate might be 3 thought it was inappropriate, right? 3 different from my perspective to her perspective. 4 A. Yes. 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 Q. All right. And did you say "Gee, did you ever 5 Q. So you think him having purchased — did he 6 go back to Mr. Epstein's home after he brought you the 6 ever purchase underwear for you? 7 vibrator?" 7 A. No. A. I never asked her that, if she did or not. I 8 Q. !assume he never bought a vibrator or a sex 9 don't remember when she bought it or he got it for her. 9 toy for you? 10 Q. Well, assuming that he bought the vibrator for 10 A. No. 11 her sometime during the time she was going to 11 Q. So you would have considered those both 12 Mr. Epstein's house, based at least upon what she said 12 inappropriate and weird if he had done that, the eight 13 to you she thought it was inappropriate, you would have 13 to ten times you claim that you went, you would have 14 expected her never to return to Mr. Epstein's home, 14 said I'm never going back because that's weird and 15 correct? 15 Inappropriate, right? 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I mean that was her opinions 17 THE WITNESS: I mean I don't know what I would 18 and her own, I mean status with him. So I didn't 18 have thought. If it was in the moment, I don't 19 really know what she was thinking or what she 19 know. I can't really remember what I was thinking 20 thought besides — 20 at that point. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. She thought it was inappropriate, but it 22 Q. I assume, though, if you understood if Jane 23 wouldn't have prevented her, at least what she told you, 23 Doe 4 was saying Mr. Epstein getting her underwear and 24 from going to Mr. Epstein's home, correct? 24 getting her a vibrator was weird and inappropriate was 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 25 if you had found something that was weird or Page 95 Page 97 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if she went 1 inappropriate that had happened at Mr. Epstein's house, 2 after that. 2 whether it was the first time, the second or third or 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 fourth, you wouldn't have returned, would you, because 4 Q. You don't know one way or the other, she just 4 you would have said why should I go back to somebody's 5 told you she thought that him getting a sex toy fix her, 5 house where something weird or inappropriate is 6 • vibrator for her was inappropriate? 6 happening, correct? 7 A. Yes, she said it was weird, so — 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 Q. You used the word inappropriate. That's why I 8 THE WITNESS: I thought everything was weird 9 used it. 9 and inappropriate that he was doing, so — 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 THE WITNESS: Inappropriate, weird. 11. Q. And you knew that 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 MR. HOROWITZ: Wait, you're cutting — 13 Q. Sarno thing to you? 13 MR. CR/TTON: Go ahead. Now you want her to 14 A. Same thing. 14 finish. Go ahead. 15 Q. So if something happened that was weird or 15 MR. HOROWITZ: I always want her to finish. 16 inappropriate from your perspective, you never would 16 MR. CRITTON: Yeah, right. 17 have gone back to Mr. Epstein's home, would you? 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Move to strike. 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 MR. CRITTON: Do you want the answer read back 3 19 THE WITNESS: This is Igm after I stopped 19 so you can fill in the blank? 20 going. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. I understand that, but if something weird or 22 Q. Okay. Were done with your answer? 23 inappropriate had happened at Mr. Epstein's home during 23 A. Yes. 24 the time you were going, you never would have returned, 24 MR. CRITION: Would you read me the question 25 would you? 25 and answer back. In fact, just let me look over 25 (Pages 94 to 97 (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107823 Page 98 Page 100 your shoulder, Rachel. Okay. 1 her. I don't know, her car might have been not working. 2 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 I don't really remember. 3 Q. Okay. So if I understood your testimony, you 3 Q. You mean he like rented a car to help her out? 4 said that every time or — let me strike again, start 4 A. Yes, I think so. 5 Win- 5 Q. Did she think that was weird or inappropriate? 6 If I understand your testimony, it's your 6 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 testimony that everything that occurred at Mr. Epstein's 7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 8 house when you were there was weird and inappropriate? 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 Q. All right. Well, my original question was 10 THE WITNESS: I mean yes, to some degree I 10 what did she tell you as to why she was filing a lawsuit 11 thought was. 11 against Mr. Epstein? And I think your answer was he 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 asked her on a trip, underwear and a sex toy and a car. 13 Q. And you knew that at the time it was weird and 13 14 inappropriate, the eight to ten times that you were 14 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 15 there, correct? 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 16 A. I mean at first I didn't — I mean now I know 16 Q. So my question again is what else, if 17 that it's weird and inappropriate. I mean but then I 17 anything, did she tell you as to what the basis of her 18 think I was so confused and I didn't really know what ! 18 suit was against Mr. Epstein? 19 was doing, and I mean I don't know, 1 was young and 1 19 A. I mean I assumed he did to her what he did to 20 wasn't thinking. 20 me, so I'm assuming that's why she would sue him. 21 Q. Well, however old you were, depending on which 21 Q. Okay. My question is what did she tell you, 22 dates we use here, is it's your testimony that what you 22 not what you assumed. What did she tell you? 23 believe occurred at Mr. Epstein's home, even when you 23 A. I don't exactly remember what she told me. 24 were at whatever age you were, whether it was 16 or 17 24 Q. Did she tell you anything other than the trip, 25 or whatever age, you thought it was weird and 25 the underwear, the vibrator, and the car? Page 99 Page 101 1 inappropriate, true? 1 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 3 THE WITNESS: I mean yeah, I thought it was 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 uncomfortable, yes. 4 Q. All right. So Jane Doe 4, who is your best 5 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 friend, who was going to Mr. Epstein's during, about the 6 Q. All right. And uncomfortable now, that's a 6 same time you were, whatever, if that was in 04, '05, 7 new word, so can 1- is weird equal to inappropriate 7 whatever the dates were, now she is telling you about a 8 versus uncomfortable to you? 8 lawsuit she's filed, and you can't remember anything 9 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 9 that she's ever told you about what she did at 10 BY MR. CRITTON: 10 Mr. Epstein's house; is that correct? 11 Q. Can I use those as synonyms, basically the 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 same meaning? 12 THE WITNESS: I mean I remember just the main 13 A. Yes. 13 points, like I remember the car was like a big 14 Q. All right Now back to Jane Doe 4 again. 14 deal, the sex toy, the underwear. That was a big 15 She's telling you, she's now living with you in Orlando 15 deal. 1 remember like the main things that 16 during the summer of '08. She told you that Mr. Epstein 16 happened. I don't remember every little detail she 17 asked her on a trip. She thought that was 17 told me about what happened at Jeffrey's. 18 inappropriate. She didn't go. He got her underwear and 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 a sex toy, vibrator. She thought that was 19 Q. Did she tell you any of the details of what 20 inappropriate. You said he got her a car. 20 happened at Mr. Epstein's? 21 For what? 21 A. Like I said, 'don't remember. I knew that he 22 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 22 tried a lot with her, because she went there a lot, but 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 I don't exactly remember what exactly he tried with her 24 Q. What did she tell you? 24 and did on her. Sono. 25 A. 1 don't exactly remember why he bought it for 25 Q. Did she ever tell you? 26 (Pages 98 to 101) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107824 Page 102 Page 104 1 A. I don't remember. She probably did and I just 1 Q. El or- one or the other? 2 forget exactly what she told me. 2 A. I think it was • I'm pretty sure, and they 3 Q. At any time during the time she was going to 3 both knew about it. 4 Mr. Epstein's home and you knew she was going there, did 4 Q. So both. and %knew, because you had 5 she ever tell you that anything inappropriate had ever 5 taken more likely than not to Mr. Epstein's home, 6 occurred? 6 yes? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 A. I mean a lot of girls in our school knew about 8 THE WITNESS: 1 mean I thought the underwear 8 it. 9 was inappropriate. I thought asking to go on a 9 Q. Knew that you were going there? 10 trip is inappropriate. So 1 mean yes. 10 A. Just knew about the whole Jeffrey thing that 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 11 was going on. 12 Q. Okay. And as of, during the time again she 12 Q. Pretty common knowledge? 13 was at Mr. Epstein's house and up until the time that 13 A. I mean I'm not — 14 the police interviewed you in October, on October 4th of 14 Q. In your school? 15 2005, did Jane Doe 4 ever tell you that anything that 15 A. Not common, but I mean like m.thriends just 16 had occurred at Mr. Epstein's house had caused her any 16 knew about it because he targeted like El targeted 17 embarrassment or humiliation? 17 lot of my friends. 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 Q. Well, she may have asked you, she didn't 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 19 necessarily target — you were her friend? 20 BY MR. CRITTON: 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 Q. Did she ever tell you that she was in any way 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 assaulted or in any way physically abused at 22 Q. You don't know whether she targeted you or 23 Mr. Epstein's home? 23 not. She asked you if you wanted to go to Mr. Epstein's 24 A. !just remember her being like in shock about 24 didn't know? 25 everything and just like I !mow he tried a lot on her 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. Page 103 Page 105 1 just because she went there a lot and he really liked 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 her and L.A. 2 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 So I mean I think that's, you know — I 3 Q. You could have said yes and you could have 4 don't — 4 said no? 5 Q. Did she, Jane Doe 4, during the time she was 5 A. I mean yes, that's true. 6 going to Mr. Epstein's house, did she tell you she was 6 Q. All right. And your decision to go to 7 in shock? 7 Mr. Epstein's was a voluntary one; that is, again, 8 MR. HOROWITZ: Fenn. 8 because you could have said sure, I'll go; or no, no 9 THE WITNESS: That was my opinion, that she 9 interest, right? 10 was kind of in shock over everything, because, I 10 A. Yes. 11 don't know. 11 Q. Okay. And my guess is u are aware of girls, 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 females at your school who El asked to go and they 13 Q. I want to focus on a time period. Prior to 13 said no, Pm not going, or I don't have any interest, 14 the October 4th visit from the Palm Beach police, okay? 14 right? 15 Before, in essence, someone other than your friends knew 15 A. No. 16 that, at least from your perspective, that you had been 16 Q. So everyone that. ever asked — 17 to Mr. Epstein's home - in fact, !should probably ask 17 A. I don't !mow exactly who asked. 18 it this way. 18 Q. Are you aware of anyone who asked that 19 Who knew that you had gone to Mr. Epstein's 19 didn't want to go? 20 home before the ice came there? Cenainly. did. 20 A. No. 21 A. Yes, MI and Jane Doe 4 and 21 right. And in fact, you and others would 22 Q. Because you had taken ■ and to 22 ask MI if you could go to Mr. Epstein's; isn't that 23 Mr. Epstein's home? 23 true? 24 A. I had just taken. one of the sisters, 24 A. No. 25 like I told you. Q. Okay. Is it your testimony that you never o V MD. St6cladaTi 27 (Pages 102 to 105) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-750.6 EFTA01107825 Page 106 Page 108 asked if you could go to Mr. Epstein's? 1 been confused because you had time to think about it and • A. asked me twice, and then asked me 2 say no or simply not go, correct? • from then on. So I never asked. to go. 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Rim. Q. Okay. Did you ever make a call to=? 4 THE WITNESS: I mean I guess you would say ▪ A. No,Milivould always call — 5 that. MR. HOROWITZ: Let him finish. You know what 6 BY MR. CRI1TON: 7 each other is going to say, but let him finish. 7 Q. All right And in temis of — all right, I'll 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 8 come back to that in a bit Lame get back to, I think 9 Q. Did you ever make a call to M? 9 I was on Jane Doe 4 before I got off on a little tangent 10 A. No, not that I could remember. 10 here, so let me go back to Jane Doe 4. 11 Q. And if called you, she basically said, 11 When she told you through the summer well, 12 in essence the conversation was "Would you like to conic 12 let me strike that. 13 over today?" 13 During the time that she was going to 14 A. Yeah, she asked me what my schedule was and 14 Mr. Epstein's, you said she never said she was 15 when I had school and classes and like what days I could 15 embarrassed or humiliated or had been traumatized, 16 come. 16 correct? 17 Q. And that was the extent of the conversation, 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 it was strictly a scheduling? 18 BY MR. CRITTON: 19 A. No, and she asked me if I knew anybody too 19 Q. That is, she never told you that? 20 that I would want to bring for a massage. 20 A. I mean I could tell that obviously she, she 21 Q. Okay. And that was the extent of the 21 was just kind of under a spell ofhim lace buying her 22 conversation, at least as to you? Whatever 22 things and giving her things and going them so much. 23 conversations you had with Sarah, she may have called 23 And I could tell she was just kind of — you 'mow, he 24 you on the phone and she said basically is what's your 24 was just kind of brainwashing her, her and L.A. That's 25 schedule? Can you come at a certain time, or what times 25 why I stopped going, because it just had got too much Page 107 Page 109 1 can you come? 1 the last visit. So — That was one aspect of the conversation, 2 Q. This is, L.A. is LA.? 3 comet? 3 A. Yes. A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And did L.A. go to Mr. Epstein's home 5 Q. Okay. And if you didn't want to go, you would 5 too? 6 have said rm not interested, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were you ever present when LA. was there? 8 Q. All right. So you had to again make a 8 A. No. 9 voluntary decision, number one, to pick up the phone if 9 Q. How old was LA. when she went? 10 Sarah was calling you so you could talk to her and say 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 3.1 either yes or no, correct? 11 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think 18. 12 A. Yes. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 Q. AM then you had to make a voluni ae r ail 13 Q. And therefore, at 18 she could decide to 14 consensual decision once you talked witL to giVe 14 either go or not go, just like Jane Doe 4 or you or 15 her your schedule or not, correct? 15 anyone else, true? 16 A. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then you had to ultimately schedule a time 17 Q. All right. Were you ever — I may have just 18 to go over to Mr. Epstein's, and then you would have to 18 asked you this. I was thinking about something else. 19 get in your car or however you — mostly your car so you 19 Were you ever present when L.A. was there? 20 could transport yourself over there, true? 20 A. No. 21 A. Yes. 21 Q. Are you aware that LA. ever went with Jane 22 Q. So in all of those, you had to make a decision 22 Doe 4? 23 to say yes, yes, yes, yes, right? 23 A. I think they went together before. 24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Did they tell you that? 25 Q. And in each those instances, you wouldn't have 25 A. I think Jane Doe 4 told me she went with L.A. 4 28 (Pages 106 to 109) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107826 Page 110 Page 112 1 I don't ICI ber. 1 awful experience, that's something that you would 2 Q. Did either L.A. or Jane Doe 4 ever describe to 2 generally remember, isn't it? 3 you up until the time you were interviewed by the Palm 3 MR. HOROWITZ: Forth. 4 Beach Police Department that they were, had been in any 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 5 way embarrassed, humiliated or traumatized by any of 5 Q. Especially a good friend lace Jane Doe 4? 6 their visits to Mr. Epstein's home? 6 A. Yeah, I {mew he tried a lot of stuff on her 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 7 and she was definitely uneasy with it and, you know, I 8 THE WITNESS: Well, at that point nobody knew 8 just think she just kept going for the money basically. 9 about it yet, so I'm sure they wouldn't have been 9 Q. Did she tell you she was uneasy with it? 10 embarrassed, because I mean their parents didn't 10 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 11 !mow like they do now, or Jane Doe 4's sister or 11 THE WITNESS: I forget exactly what she told 12 anybody else, you guys depositioned for her. So I 12 me, but the summary of it was that she — 13 mean at that point they probably wouldn't have been 13 BY MR. CRITTON: 14 embarrassed. 14 Q. Summer of '08 now she is telling you this? 15 BY MR. CRITTON: 15 MR. HOROWITZ: She said the sum of It, I 16 Q. Or humiliated, right, because they chose to go 16 think. 17 there? 17 BY MR. CRITTON: 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 18 Q. Are you saying the sum of it. 19 THE WITNESS: At the point they were young and 19 A. The sum of it was that she was uneasy and 20 they weren't really thinking, as I. So — 20 didn't want to go there, but she was basically just 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 21 going for the int.nrry. 22 Q. All I'm asking is what they have told you 22 Q. Well, did she tell you that she was going back 23 okay? Or whet you observed. 23 to Mr. Epstein's because she wanted to make money? 24 So would it be a correct statement as of the 24 A. No, that's what I asstnned. 25 time you were interviewed by the Palm Beach police, you 25 Q. Again, I want to know what she told you versus Page 111 Page 113 1 didn't notice that Jane Doe 4 was either embarrassed or 1 what you assumed. 2 humiliated for having gone to Mr. Epstein's, true? 2 So would it be a correct statement, she didn't 3 A. I don't think she was embarrassed or 3 tell you she was in any way traumatized or emotional ly 4 humiliated, because nobody knew about it, so — 4 or psychologically damaged by anything that was 5 Q. And from at least what she either told you or 5 occurring with Mr. Epstein? 6 what you observed, she didn't say she was traumatized in 6 She never said that to you, did she? 7 any way because she kept going, right? 7 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 8 BY MR. CRITTON: 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean she was obviously 9 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Did Jane Doe 4, 10 didn't want to go, but she kept going I think just 10 as of October 4 of 2005 when the Palm Beach police came 11 for the money and just because he was good at 11 to interview you, up to that point, had Jane Doe 4 ever 12 smooth talking and I mean just made her feel 12 said to you that she was in any way traumatized either 13 comfortable. 13 emotionally or mentally by any of her visits to 14 BY MR. CRITTON: 14 Mr. Epstein's home? 15 Q. Move to strike. Let me ask you my question 15 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 16 again. 16 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 Did Jane Doe 4 ever tell you she was 17 Q. What she told you. 18 traumatized as of the date you gave your interview to 18 A. 1 don't remember exactly if she ever told me 19 the Palm Beach police, October 4th of 2005, that she had 19 she was traumatized or what — it was so long ago, 1 20 been traumatized in any way by Mr. Epstein? 20 can't remember everything she said to me. I just 21 MR. HOROWITZ: Farr 21 remember the main parts that stick out. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 22 Q. The car, the trip, the sex toy and the 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 underwear. That's what you remember? 24 Q. All right. Well, if one of your friends told 24 A. Yes. 25 you that they had had a traumatic experience or some 25 Q. And that's what she told you in May or the 29 (Pages 110 to 113) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107827 Page 114 Page 116 1 summer of '08 when she was living with you? A. Yes. 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 2 Q. And as of the time you were interviewed, you 3 BY MR. CRITTON: 3 were no longer seeing Mr. Epstein? 4 Q. Right? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Yes. 5 Q. Had you made a decision not to see him anymore Q. And you don't remember anything else -- 6 at some point? 7 A. Well, I mean I knew about the car I mean 7 A. Yes. B before she was living with me. 8 Q. And even though you were at whatever age, you 9 Q. I understand, but at least that's the first 9 made a conscious decision I don't want to go to 1.0 time — strike that. 10 Mr. Epstein's home anymore? 11 At least as of October 4th of '05 when you 11 A. Yes. 12 were interviewed by the Palm Beach police, you don't 12 Q. Right? And you could have made that decision 13 remember anything else that stands out in your mind 13 on the first visit, the second, the third, the fourth, 14 where Jane Doe 4 told you anything bad had occurred at 14 the fifth, any time up until the time you stopped, 15 Mr. Epstein's? 15 right? 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 16 A. Yes. 17 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 Q. And with regard to Jane Doe 4, was she aware 18 Q. As you sit here today that you can relate, 18 that you had been to Mr. Epstein's on a number of 19 correct? 19 occasions? 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 THE WITNESS: I mean she did tell me stuff I 21 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 knew the was going a lot and I know he was really 22 Q. Did you tell her? 23 trying stuff on her, and I just can't remember the 23 A. Yes. 24 details. I 'mew about all that before the police 24 Q. Did you ever tell her why you stopped going to 25 even came, and I knew about the car before the 25 Mr. Epstein's? Page 115 Page 117 1 police came. I don't know if I knew — I don't 1 A. I believe so. 2 know if the underwear was before or after the 2 Q. What did you tell her? 3 police. 3 A. I don't really remember. I just remember 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 telling her the last time was, made me feel really 5 Q. Did you ever say to her if he was, quote, 5 uncomfortable and he definitely had forcefully tried to 6 unquote, trying stuff is why are you going back? 6 do stuff with me, and that's why I stopped going. 7 A. No. I mean that's her own deal and her own 7 Q. Okay. And at least from your perspective, if decision. 8 he hadn't as you allege forcefully tried to do 9 Q. All right. And in fact she was 18 at the 9 something, you would have continued to go see 10 time? 10 Mr. Epstein? 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 11 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 THE WITNESS: No, because every time I went 13 Q. She was a her of 2005, 13 there, he would try more and more and more, and to 14 she's iS a freshmanfillia, right? 14 the point where I was done. And so I wouldn't have 15 A. Yes. 15 continued to keep going. 16 Q. Okay. And you and Jane Doe 4 are the same 16 BY MR. CRITTON: 17 age? 17 Q. Okay. And you told that, it's your testimony 18 A. We're around the same age, yeah_ Well, yeah. 18 you told Jane Doe 4 that? 19 Q. I mean, I'm sorry, you may not be the exact 19 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 20 same age, but you were also now at Itip in 20 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think I 21 Orlando? 21 told her. I just, I don't remember for sure 22 A. Yes, 22 exactly. I think I did tell her. 23 Q. In '05, correct? 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 24 A. Yes, 24 Q. All right. 25 Q. So you were away at college too? 25 A. Because I think she asked me why 1 didn't go vaamemsedsessamisseransaw— 30 (Pages 114 to 117) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. . (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107828 Page 118 Page 120 1 there anymore. I don't remember exactly what 1 told 1 lawyers had anything to do with you going to 2 her, though. 2 Mr. Epstein's the first time, did they? 3 Q. Did she, Jane Doe 4, tell you that she enjoyed 3 A. Of course not, no. going to Mr. Epstein's? 4 Q. Okay. In fact, it was, more importantly, the 5 A. No. 5 second time you went to Mr. Epstein's, that was 6 Q. Would you be surprised if her deposition 6 completely a voluntary consensual decision that you made she testified to that fact? 7 in your own mind to go back to his home, not 8 Mit HOROWTM: Penn. 8 Mr. Epstein, but your decision, correct? 9 TIME WITNESS: I manlike Dolman. he 9 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 10 brainwashed everybody. At the point where he was 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, when I was around 16 at 11 asking her to get on private jets and go on 11 the time. I mean yeah. 12 vacations, maybe, I don't 12 BY MR. CRITTON: 13 BY MR. CANTON: 13 Q. Just a yes or a no, okay? I know you want to 14 Q. My question is did she tell you? There is a 14 justify what you did or not did, so kt me ask a clean 15 distinction between what you are assuming and what she 15 question. 16 mid you. 16 At the time you went to Mr. Epstein's the 17 In fact, Rachel, would you go back — 17 second time -- you went to Mr. Epstein's the first time 18 MR. HOROWITZ: Your question was — 18 with El correct? 19 MR CRITTON: Fm going to have it read back. 19 A. Uh huh. 20 (A portion of the record was read by the 20 Q. All right Yes? 21 reporter.) 21 A. Yes. 22 BY MR. CRITTON: 22 Q. Okay. The second time you went to 23 Q. When you tented with Jane Doe 4 in May or 23 Mr. Epstein's, that was completely your decision, right? 24 during the summer of '08 when she told you she had 24 MR. HOROWITZ: Font 25 brought her lawsuit, did she tell you what she was 25 THE WITNESS: I already told you that, yes. Page 119 Page 1.. 1 looking for? That is, what did she want from 1 BY MR. CRITTON: 2 Mr. Epstein? 2 Q. And Mr. Epstein had nothing to do with that, 3 A. She just wanted justice. She was upset like 3 it was your decision to either go or not go? 4 every other girl and she just wanted, you know, more 4 A. He's the one that got the girls to go there. 5 than anything to see him in jail, and I mean yeah. 5 He had everything to do with it. 6 Q. And ultimately he was in jail at that time, 6 Q. But it was your decision to go or not, not was he not? 7 Mr. Epstein's? 1 mean he could ask r ru to come back. 8 A. That was like a slap on the wrist basically. 8 A. He never would have asked to hunt down 9 Q. How do you know? It's the justice system. 9 girls to bring them there. I never would have went 10 Let me start again. 10 there, I never would have been put in that position. I 11 A. Because I read all the newspapers and I think 11 don't think anybody when they are 16 years old should 12 'know — 12 have been put in that position by a 55 or however old he 13 Q. Okay. 13 Ismail. 14 A. I mean if you have money, I mean he could 14 Q Let me ask you this. I think you said you 15 hire, afford to hire you and other great lawyers that 15 took to Mr. Epstein's home. 16 make girls feel like crap and don't mind doing it, so -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Well, I had nothing to do with your going to 17 Q. How many times had you been to Mr. Epstein's 18 Mr. Epstein's the first occasion, did I? 18 home before you took IMI.? 19 A. I mean — 19 A. I think I took her like the second visit, lace 20 Q. Yes or no? 20 around the second visit 21 A. You don't think it was wrong what he did? 21 Q. Okay. 22 Q. Yes or no, did I have anything to do with you 22 A. He didn't really try that much with me the 23 ever going to Mr. Epstein's? 23 first visit. If1 would have known everything he was 24 A. Of course not. I didn't know you back then. 24 doing with girls like I have known now, I never would 25 Q. Thank you. And in fact, none of Mr. Epstein's 25 have asked any other girlfriends to go. 31 (Pages 118 to 121) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107829 Page 122 Page 124 1 Q. Move to strike. 1 I heard about, my friends were doing it and going there 2 I think you said you took after your 2 and — 3 second visit, or was it — 3 Q. Do you think whir did was wrong? 4 A. I think around the second or the third. I 4 A. Honestly, I think was just brainwashed by 5 don't know exactly. 5 hint, and I feel bad for her, because I maul that was 6 Q. When did you take. if she's the one you 6 wrong what he did, brainwashing her to bring other 7 took? When did you take her? 7 girls. a A. I think around — I don't know. I don't 8 Q. When you took — 9 remember what visit, but I remember it was towards the 9 MR. CRITTON: How much time? 10 beginning. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Two minutes. 11 Q. Did you not, those are the only two you ever 11 BY MR. CRITTON: 12 took? 12 Q. All right. You took correct? 13 A. Yes. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Why would you take — I mean you had to make 14 Q. And did you ask her if she wanted to go? 15 the decision, you in essence did the same thing — 15 A. No. She heard about it too and she asked me 16 A. 16 about it. And I told her I went, and then she asked me, 17 Q. !have to ask the question. 17 she was like "Oh, well, can you bring me there?" 18 A Sony. 18 Q. Did you say "No, I don't think it's — I think 19 Q. When took -you were doing the sane 19 it's uncomfortable, weird and inappropriate, I don't 20 thing thatMI was doing, were you not? 20 think Til take you there"? 21 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 21 A. At the time, like it was towards the very 22 THE WITNESS: el asked me to go. 22 beginning when I was going that And he wasn't really 23 BY MR. CRITTON: 23 doing this much or trying as math with the girls as 24 Q. Whether she asked you or not, when el asked 24 towards the end that I heard about 25 you to go, asked you to take her, in essence, you were 25 Q. Okay. So you think you took el about the Page 123 Page 125 1 doing the same thing that el was doing, right? 1 third or fourth time you were there? 2 MR. HOROWITZ: Form. 2 A. 'think it was around the second or third as I 3 THE WITNESS: No. 3 took. and 4 BY MR. CRITTON: 4 Q. Did you take them the same day? 5 Q. You see it in a different view because. S A. No, I took one like around the second time and asked you if you could go to Mr. Epstein's? 6 one around the third time. I don't really remember. A asked me to go to take her there. She 7 MR. CRITTON: Okay, let's have a break 6 wanted to go. a THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 9 Q. Okay. So I assume when you took el to 9 12:09 am. This marks the end of tape one. 10 Mr. Epstein's, you didn't take any money from 10 (A recess was taken.) 11 Mr. Epstein from having brought her there; is that true? 11 (End of Volume 1) 12 A. T did take money. 12 13 Q. You did take money. How much money did you 13 14 take for el asking you if you could go to Mr. 14 15 Epstein's? 15 16 A. $200. 16 17 Q. Did you say, "Gee, I'm not going to take 17 18 any money for bringing you to Mr. Epstein's, that's 18 19 wrong. That's not somethingI should do. I don't want 19 20 to do the same thing, in essence, that. is doing"? 20 21 A. I didn't realize at the point that it was 21 22 something bad and wrong until now obviously I do, but 22 23 back then when I was 16, I didn't really realize, you 23 24 know, that it was wrong. AndI,I was confused and 24 25 just, I mean all the girls in my high school were, that 25 32 (Pages 122 to 125) (561) 832-7500 PROSE COURT REPORTING AGENCY, INC. (561) 832-7506 EFTA01107830