EFTA01249325

- rl g 3 Original Transcript • UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA JANE DOE, Plaintiff, vs. Case No. 08-80893- CIV-MARRA/JOHNSON JEFFREY EPSTEIN, Defendant. DEPOSITION OF MARK EPSTEIN September 21, 2009 • 11:30 a.m. One Penn Plaza, New York, New York Jacklyn Lisi • Toll Free Facsimile, 0 Suite 1300 515 East Las Olas Boulevard ESQUIRE Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page I of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00 108549 EFTA01249325 • • S 3501.294-001 Page 2 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108550 EFTA01249326 1 • UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA JANE DOE, Plaintiff, vs. Case No. 08-80893- CIV-MARRA/JOHNSON JEFFREY EPSTEIN, Defendant. DEPOSITION of MARK EPSTEIN, taken by • Defendants, at the offices of Esquire Deposition Solutions, One Penn Plaza, New York, New York 10119, on Monday, September 21, 2009, commencing at 11:30 a.m., before Jacklyn Lisi, a Shorthand Reporter and notary public, within and for the State of New York. • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 3 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108551 EFTA01249327 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 2 1 2 APPEARANCES : ROTHSTEIN ROSENFELDT ADLER, ESQS. • Attorneys for Plaintiffs, EW, LM and Jane Doe 3 Las Olas City Centre, Suite 1650 401 East Las Olas Boulevard 4 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 5 BY: BRAD J. EDWARDS, ESQ. 6 7 LEOPOLD KUVIN, ET AL Attorneys for Plaintiff, BB 8 2925 PGA Boulevard, Suite 200 Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 33410 9 BY: ADAM LANGINO, ESQ. 10 (via telephone) 11 COHEN & GRESSER, LLP 12 Attorneys for the Witness, Mark Epstein 100 Park Avenue 13 New York, New York 10017 14 15 BY: MARK S. COHEN, ESQ. ALEXIS G. STONE, ESQ. • 16 PODHURST ORSECK, et al 17 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, Jane Does 101 and 102 25 West Flagler Street, Suite 800 18 Miami, Florida 33130 19 BY: KATHERINE EZELL, ESQ. (via telephone) 20 21 MERMELSTEIN & HOROWITZ, ESQS. 22 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, Jane Does 2 through 8 18205 Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 2218 23 Miami, Florida 33160 24 BY: ADAM H. HOROWITZ, ESQ. (via telephone) 25 Toll Free FaWmile 0 ESQUIRE 515 East Las 02s Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 4 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108552 EFTA01249328 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 3 • 1 2 APPEARANCES (continued) RICHARD H. WILLITS, ESQ. 3 Attorney for Plaintiff, ■ 2290 10th Avenue North, Suite 404 4 Lake Worth, Florida 33461 (via telephone) 5 6 BURMAN, CRITTON, LUTTIER & COLEMAN, LLP Attorneys for the Defendant, Jeffrey Epstein 515 North Flagler Drive, Suite 400 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 BY: ROBERT CRITTON, ESQ. (via telephone) * • 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 • Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 350)294-001 Page 5 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108553 EFTA01249329 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 4 1 STIPULATIONS 2 3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED, by and between the attorneys 4 for the respective parties hereto, that all rights provided 5 by the C.P.L.R., and Part 221 of the Uniform Rules for the 6 Conduct of Depositions, including the right to object to any 7 question, except as to form, or to move to strike any 8 testimony at this examination is reserved; and in addition, 9 the failure to object to any question or to move to strike 10 any testimony at this examination shall not be a bar or 11 waiver to make such motion at, and is reserved to, the trial 12 of this action. 13 This deposition may be sworn to by the witness being 14 15 examined before a Notary Public other than the Notary Public before whom this examination was begun, but the failure to • 16 do so or to return the original of this deposition to 17 counsel, shall not be deemed a waiver of the rights provided 18 by Rule 3116 of the C.P.L.R. and shall be controlled 19 thereby. 20 The filing of the original of this deposition is 21 waived. 22 23 24 25 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 6 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108554 EFTA01249330 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 5 • 2 M. Epstein THE REPORTER: Please state your name 3 and address for the record? 4 THE WITNESS: (Witness refused to give 5 his address to the court reporter.) 6 MR. COHEN: On the record. 7 For the witness, Mark Epstein, Mark 8 Cohen and Alexis Stone of Cohen & Gresser, 100 9 Park Avenue, New York, New York. 10 MR. EDWARDS: Brad Edwards on behalf 11 of EW, LM and Jane Doe. 12 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton on 13 behalf of Jeffrey Epstein. • 14 15 MS. EZELL: Jane Does 101 and 102. Kathy Ezell on behalf of 16 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz on 17 behalf of Plaintiffs, Jane Does 2 through 8. 18 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits on 19 behalf of 20 MR. LANGINO: Adam Langino on behalf 21 of Plaintiff, BB. 22 MR. EDWARDS Okay. That's everybody. 23 MR. COHEN: Okay. Before I start, 24 this is Mark Cohen on behalf of Mark Epstein, 25 I just want to put on the record the details • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las alas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 voimesouiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 7 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108555 EFTA01249331 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 6 1 M. Epstein 2 of a conversation I've had with Mr. Edwards 3 and make sure that all counsel is agreeable to 4 this. 5 My client, Mark Epstein, is very 6 concerned about being videotaped and having 7 his image recorded. 8 He is concerned about possible future 9 uses of his image. And so Mr. Edwards and I 10 have agreed that this recording, the videotape 11 of my client, will be confidential and will 12 not be revealed in public unless and until 13 there is an order by a court in one of the 14 15 cases that are involved in these depositions that orders that the video be made public. • 16 We are prepared to proceed on that 17 basis. 18 As I understand, Mr. Edwards is 19 prepared to proceed, but obviously we need the 20 agreement of all counsel. 21 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits agrees. 22 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton agrees. 23 MS. EZELL: Kathy Ezell agrees. 24 MR. EDWARDS: Adam? 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz, that's Toll Free: Fair.Imile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 8 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108556 EFTA01249332 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 7 • 1 2 fine. M. Epstein 3 MR. LANGINO: The same with Adam 4 Langino, that's fine. 5 MR. COHEN: All right. Thank you. 6 MR. EDWARDS And Sid Garcia is not in 7 and he is not supposed to be in; right? 8 MR. CRITTON: This is Bob Critton. 9 I assume -- I don't know whether he 10 was going to come or not, but I assume that 11 everyone will also abide and not give Mr. 12 Garcia a copy of the video until he also 13 affirms in writing to Mr. Cohen that he's • 14 15 agreed to be bound by the same agreement. MR. EDWARDS: Okay. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape 17 number one to the videotape deposition of Mark 18 Epstein in the matter of Jane Doe versus 19 Jeffrey Epstein being held before the United 20 States District Court in the Southern District 21 of Florida, case file number 08-80893. 22 This deposition is being held at 23 Esquire Deposition Solutions, One Penn Plaza, 24 New York, New York on September 21, 2009. The 25 time is 11:41 a.m. • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 verew.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 9 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108557 EFTA01249333 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 8 1 M. Epstein 2 My name is Peter Ledwith. I'm the 3 videographer. The court reporter is Jackie 4 Lisi. 5 Counsel, will you please introduce 6 yourselves and who you represent? 7 MR. EDWARDS: Brad Edwards. I 8 represent EW, LM and Jane Doe. 9 MR. COHEN: Mark Cohen and Ally 10 Stone. I represent the witness, Mark Epstein. 11 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton on 12 behalf of the defendant, Jeff Epstein. 13 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits on 14 15 behalf of MR. LANGINO: Adam Langino on behalf • 16 of Plaintiff BB. 17 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz on 18 behalf of plaintiffs Jane Does numbers 2 19 through 8. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court 21 reporter please swear in the witness? 22 MARK EPSTEIN, 23 having been first duly affirmed, was examined 24 and testified as follows: 25 THE WITNESS: I am an atheist, but I Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 ionvw.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 10 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108558 EFTA01249334 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 9 • 1 2 M. Epstein will affirm I'll tell the truth. 3 EXAMINATION BY 4 MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Can you tell us your name? 6 A. Mark Epstein. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can you put the 8 microphone on your shirt, please? 9 THE WITNESS: Mark Epstein. 10 Q. Okay. And your date of birth, 11 please? 12 A. 13 Q• And what is your relationship with • 14 15 the defendant in this case, Jeffrey Epstein? A. He is my brother. 16 Q. Are you currently married? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What is your current address? 19 A. I'm not giving out my address. I'm 20 concerned about my personal safety because of 21 the nature of this case. You can use his 22 address. You can use my attorney's address. 23 Q. Please elaborate on that for me that 24 you are concerned for your safety because of 25 the nature of this case? • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: ESQUIRE 51.5 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, Ft. 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.com 350I.294-00I Page I I of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFrA_00108559 EFTA01249335 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 10 1 M. Epstein 2 A. Because I've read -- well, I know 3 that Jeffrey hired a detective or someone from 4 the police when he went out on his days out. 5 So obviously there is probably a concern for 6 safety. 7 I don't want anything to do with this 8 case. I have nothing to do with this case. I 9 don't want my identifying information on any 10 kind of public record. 11 MR. COHEN: If it will make it 12 easier, Mr. Edwards, this is Mark Cohen 13 speaking. Mr. Mark Epstein is authorizing my 14 15 firm to accept service if there is a future subpoena or a need to contact him again. • 16 THE WITNESS: Before we go on, I want 17 to make a statement. 18 I want to say on the record that 19 initially I was improperly served with a 20 subpoena from Florida, it was supposed to come 21 from New York. 22 It also did not include the required 23 documents giving me my rights and obligations 24 under the Florida laws. So it's a breach of 25 some kind of ethics. 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fat Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.corn 3501.294-001 Page 12 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108560 EFTA01249336 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 11 M. Epstein 2 So in my book, you are either incompetent, devious or have no ethical compass. So you are not on my high list. 6 Continue with your questions. I just wanted a 7 record of that. 8 MR. CRITTON: Brad, can you move the 9 phone a little closer to Mr. Epstein? I heard 10 you and I heard Mr. Cohen fine, but I'm having 11 trouble with Mr. Epstein. 12 MR. EDWARDS: All right. 13 MR. CRITTON: Thank you. • 14 15 MR. EDWARDS: I apologize for your feelings about the subpoena. 16 THE WITNESS: Not accepted. 17 This is too serious of a matter. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. You do realize that you are 20 subpoenaed to testify today in cases that 21 involve your brother having sex or engaging in 22 sex acts with minors; correct? 23 MR. CRITTON: Form? 24 MR. COHEN: That's -- 25 A. I know there is a case against my • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las alas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esouiresoludons.com 3501294-001 Page 13 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108561 EFTA01249337 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 12 1 M. Epstein 2 brother. I know that. 3 Q. And you are aware that there are 4 multiple attorneys on the phone that represent 5 girls who were under-age when Mr. Epstein had 6 sex with them? 7 A. I know there are multiple attorneys 8 on the phone. 9 Q. Okay. Have you read the newspaper 10 articles about your brother that detail your 11 brother having sex with under-age girls? 12 MR. CRITTON: Form. 13 A. I've read some of the papers. 14 15 Q. wrong? You agree that sex with minors is • 16 MR. CRITTON: Form. 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 Q. You can answer. 19 A. I have no opinion on that. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. I'm not here to give opinions. I'm 22 here for facts. So ask me questions about 23 facts and I'll be glad to answer them. 24 Q. Well, do you agree with the laws that 25 protect under-age children from adult sexual Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vmw.esquiresolutions.cm 3501.294-001 Page 144120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFIA_00108562 EFTA01249338 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 13 • 1 2 predators? M. Epstein 3 MR. COHEN: Objection. 4 MR. CRITTON: Form. 5 A. My information on the case is my 6 brother I know had to spend sometime in jail 7 for some prostitution charge. 8 So I assume the attorneys are representing the prostitutes he was involved 10 with, so I don't know what the ages of them 11 are or were. 12 I'm not involved with the case. I 13 don't watch all the details about it. That's • 14 15 all. Q. Would it surprise you to learn that 16 there were more than 30 girls between the ages 17 of 12 and 15 that your brother engaged in sex 18 acts with? 19 MR. CRITTON: Form. 20 A. I don't get surprised by very many 21 things in this world. 22 Q. But you and your brother are a year 23 apart; right? 24 A. 18 months. 25 O. And you grew up together? • 0 Toll Fr Facslml Suite 1300 ESQUIRE M.. 515 East Las pas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.corn 3501.294-001 Page 15 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108563 EFTA01249339 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 14 1 M. Epstein • 2 A. Sure. 3 Q• You still talk to him? 4 A. Occasionally, rarely. 5 Q. So when I ask you, does it surprise 6 you, you are saying that it doesn't surprise 7 you that your older brother engaged in sex 8 with more than 30 girls between 12 and 9 15 years old? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. 11 MR. CRITTON: Form. 12 A. I don't know how to answer that 13 question. I don't know if it's true, and I 14 15 don't know what the story is. It's not -- ask me a question about • 16 facts I'm not going to give you opinions 17 here, that's not what I'm here for. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 S Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esdulresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 16 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108564 EFTA01249340 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 15 • 1 2 M. Epstein 3 4 6 7 MR. EDWARDS: Counsel? 8 MR. COHEN: I would suggest you move 9 to an area that's likely to lead to you 10 gathering relevant evidence. 11 We can come back to this burning 12 question maybe later. 13 MR. CRITTON: Let me also add that I • 14 15 can only object to form, but I also want to put on the record, other than his name and he 16 is related to Mr. Epstein, there is not one 17 piece of evidence or -- 18 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't hear 19 you. 20 MR. CRITTON: I'm sorry. I just want 21 to note for the record that other than his 22 name and his relationship to Mr. Epstein, to 23 Jeffrey Epstein, there has been nothing of 24 relevance or materiality that would lead to 25 admissible evidence at the time of trial. • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.00rn 3501.294-001 Page 17 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108565 EFTA01249341 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 16 1 M. Epstein 2 This is being done to harass or 3 humiliate Mr. Mark Epstein and/or my client. 4 It certainly borders on that, but he is not an 5 expert, his opinions are irrelevant in this 6 case, and as is his own family situation 7 but -- 8 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Critton, as you 9 stated first, I think that your objection is 10 limited to the form. Thanks. 11 Can I mark this as an exhibit? 12 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 was so marked 13 for identification.) 14 15 MR. COHEN: I will say that I join in Mr. Critton's objection for the record. • 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. How frequently do you talk with your 18 brother now? 19 A. Maybe once every couple of weeks or 20 so, but "now° being just the last month or 21 two. 22 Q. Okay. When you first learned of a 23 criminal investigation into your brother, did 24 you talk to him about the substance of those 25 allegations? 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page [Sof 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108566 EFTA01249342 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 17 M. Epstein 2 A. No. 3 Q. Have you ever asked him or had a 4 conversation with him about the allegations 5 that he's had sex with numerous under-age 6 kids? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Is there a reason why you wouldn't 9 ask him questions about him engaging in sex 10 with 13, 14-year old kids? 11 A. We are not very close. We don't talk 12 very often. 13 MR. CRITTON: Form. • 14 Q. But when you do talk to him, that 15 conversation doesn't come up? 16 A. No. 17 Q. He went to jail. Did he ever tell 18 you why he went to jail? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Are you familiar with the property at 21 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. Who owns that property? 24 A. Dara Partners. 25 Q. And what is Jeffrey Epstein's • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Otas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 19 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108567 EFTA01249343 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 18 1 2 M. Epstein affiliation with that property? • 3 A. He rents some apartments in there. 4 Q. How many apartments does Jeffrey 5 Epstein rent at 6 A. It's either 8 or 10, I am not sure. 7 Q. Who are the residents of the 8 apartments that Jeffrey Epstein rents at that 9 location? 10 A. I have no idea. 11 MR. CRITTON: Brad, what was the 12 answer to the last one? 13 MR. COHEN: He has no idea. 14 15 A. I know his pilots used to stay there, but I don't think he is using pilots any more. • 16 Q. Why does he rent so many places at 17 the same location? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q. Have you ever had any affiliation 20 with that location? 21 A. Sure. 22 Q. In what way? 23 A. I'm one of the partners of Dara 24 Partners. 25 Q. So does your brother rent from you? Toil Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 20 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFIA_00108568 EFTA01249344 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 19 • 1 2 A. M. Epstein No, he rents from Dara Partners. My 3 partner handles that property, I don't know 4 any of the tenants in that building other than 5 one or two. 6 Q. What are the names of the one or two 7 that you do know? 8 A. It is my ex, so I'm not going to give 9 you her name. 10 Q. Is that somebody who lives in one of 11 the places rented by your brother Jeffrey 12 Epstein? 13 A. No. • 14 15 Q. Do you know any of the tenants that live in the places rented by your brother, 16 Jeffrey Epstein? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know 19 A. I know the name. I don't know her. 20 Q. Do you know what her relationship is 21 to your brother? 22 A. I think she worked for him. 23 Q. In what capacity? 24 A. I have no idea. 25 Q. Do you know if she lives in • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresohdlons.corn 3501.294-001 Page 21 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108569 EFTA01249345 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 20 1 M. Epstein 2 3 A. I don't know where she lives. 4 Q. Would you know her if you saw her? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You've never seen her before? 7 A. I might have seen her somewhere, I 8 don't know. 9 Q. Have you ever talked to her? 10 A. I don't recall talking to her. 11 Q. Do you know 12 A. I know of her. 13 Q. How do you know of her? 14 15 A. Q. In the papers. What papers? • 16 A. Newspapers. I read some articles. 17 Q. Newspapers about your brother? 18 A. Relating to his case, yes. 19 Q. Okay. And what is your understanding 20 of her relationship with your brother? 21 A. I don't have an understanding about 22 it. 23 MR. CRITTON: Form. 24 A. My brother and I do not have a close 25 relationship, so what he does is his business 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East US Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 22 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108570 EFTA01249346 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 21 • 1 2 M. Epstein and what I do is my business. 3 We don't communicate back and forth 4 about our personal lives very often. I talk 5 to him to find out if he is well. That's all 6 I need to know. 7 Q. Does he tell you that he is well 8 these days? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know what his future plans are 11 in terms of where he intends to live once he 12 is off probation or house arrest? 13 A. I have no idea. • 14 15 Q. Is that a topic that you would ever talk to him about? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So what is it that you talk to him 18 about when you call? 19 A. See how he is doing, see if he is 20 okay. 21 Q. Does he call you as well? 22 A. Sometimes. 23 Q. What is his telephone number? 24 A. where? 25 Q. What are the telephone numbers that • Ton Free Facsimile ESQUIRE Suite 1300 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esqulresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 23 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108571 EFTA01249347 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 22 1 M. Epstein 2 you reach him at? 3 A. A lot of times I call his office and 4 I have them tell him to call me. 5 Q. What is his office number? 6 A. 7 Q. Who do you speak to at his office? 8 A. Whoever answers the phone. 9 Q. Do you know any of the people in his 10 office that typically answer the phone? 11 A. Some. 12 Q. Who are you familiar with there? 13 A. Darren. An attorney, Darren. 14 15 Q. A. Darren Indyke? Yes. • 16 Q. So normally the way that you get in 17 touch with your brother is to call his office 18 and they forward you on to him? 19 A. No, I tell them to have him call me. 20 Well, sometimes, I mean I've called him 21 directly too, but most of the time he is not 22 there so it's easier just to leave a message 23 to have him call me. 24 Q. Well, these days now that he is on 25 house arrest, normally if you called him he'd 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.eutuiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 24 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108572 EFTA01249348 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 23 • 1 2 be there, right? M. Epstein 3 A. I don't know the term house arrest. 4 I don't know if he'd be there or not. And if 5 I called there and sometimes he doesn't answer 6 or the phone doesn't get answered, so I don't 7 know where he is. 8 Q. What's the number that you would call 9 to reach him? 10 A. 11 Q. Is it your understanding that is a 12 cell phone or is that the land line? 13 A. I thought it was a land line. • 14 15 Q. A. And what is your telephone number? I'm not giving you any identifying 16 information. 17 MR. EDWARDS: We can come back to 18 that? 19 MR. COHEN: Why don't we come back to 20 that. 21 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. 22 Q. Are you familiar with your brother's 23 businesses? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Toll Free • Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, F1.33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 25 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108573 EFTA01249349 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 24 1 2 Jean Luc Brunel? M. Epstein • 3 A. No. 4 Q. How often are you at the property at 5 6 A. I pick up my children there 7 sometimes. Maybe -- well, actually, they are 8 in school now so I'm not there that often, 9 because I pick them up at school. 10 During the summers I would pick them 11 up there once a week. 12 Q. Is that where the subpoena was served 13 on you? 14 15 A. No, the subpoena was served on me in the street of New York. • 16 Q. Near that building? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No where near that building? 19 A. It was in The City of New York, it 20 depends on what you mean by "near." 21 Q. Have you been to your brother's house 22 in New York? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How many occasions? 25 A. Under five. Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresoludons.com 3501.294-001 Page 26 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFrA_00108574 EFTA01249350 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 25 M. Epstein 2 Q. Have you been to your brother's house 3 in Palm Beach? 4 A. When. 5 Q. Ever? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How many occasions? a A. Probably dozens. 9 Q. When is the last time you were there? 10 A. Probably about a decade ago. I was 11 outside once more recently than that. 12 During one of the hurricanes, he 13 asked me to take a look at the property, but I • 14 15 did not go in. Q. Why not? 16 A. There was no inside damage. I went 17 to see the property just to see if there was 18 damage to the property. I was in Florida at 19 the time. 20 Q. Why has it been more than 10 years 21 since you've been to that property? 22 A. My brother and I are not very close. 23 Q. What is the reason why you are not 24 very close? 25 A. We just went our own ways. • • Toll Free: Faalmlle: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, R. 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 27 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108575 EFTA01249351 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 26 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. Does it have to do with the fact that 3 he likes under-age girls and engages in that 4 type of illegal activity? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection. 6 MR. CRITTON: Form. 7 A. I'm not going to make that 8 assumption, but it has nothing do with 9 anything like that. We just went our own 10 ways. Different interests, different things. 11 Q. Knowing your brother, if when your 12 children are 13, 14 years old, would you let 13 them alone with him? 14 15 MR. COHEN: MR. CRITTON: Objection. Form. • 16 A. Yes, I would. 17 Q. Do you know anything about Jean Luc 18 Brunel? 19 A. I never heard the name before. You 20 just mentioned it before. 21 Q. Are you familiar with the modeling 22 agency MC Squared? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know if your brother has any 25 involvement with that modeling agency? S Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 itrww.esquiresolutions.corn 3501.294-001 Page 28 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108576 EFTA01249352 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 27 • 1 2 A. No. M. Epstein 3 Q. It goes back to you not being that 4 close with your brother? 5 A. We don't talk about business. He 6 doesn't tell me about his business and I don't 7 ask. 8 Q. Are you aware that your brother is 9 friendly or friends with David Copperfield? 10 A. No. The magician? 11 Q. Right. 12 A. I have no idea, no. 13 Q. Do you know any common interest that • 14 15 he shares with David Copperfield? A. Magic? 16 I have no idea. 17 Q. Does your brother do magic? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 MR. CRITTON: Form. 20 Q. There is evidence in this case that 21 David Copperfield was at your brother's house 22 on occasions with under-age girls. 23 Were you ever there then? 24 A. No. 25 MR. CRITTON: Form. • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.corn 3501.294-001 Page 29 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108577 EFTA01249353 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 28 1 M. Epstein 2 Q• There will also be evidence in this 3 case that your brother and Jean Luc Brunel 4 were involved sexually with minors in your 5 brother's house. 6 Were you ever there then? 7 MR. CRITTON: Form. 8 A. No. 9 When? When did this take place? 10 Q. Any of the times that your brother 11 and Jean Luc Brunel were in the same house. 12 A. What time period is that? 13 Q. Between 2000 and 2005. 14 15 A. I already told you I haven't been there for over a decade. So use your fucking • 16 head and realize that I wasn't there. 17 Next question. 16 Q. When was the last time you were in 19 the New York house? 20 A. When my mother was still alive. So 21 it's got to be over five years ago, I think. 22 Q. All right. I'm going to go back to a 23 time that you are more familiar with your 24 brother. 25 Where did you grow up? Toll Free: Facsimile: S ESQUIRE 515 East Las Dias Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vnvw.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 30 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108578 EFTA01249354 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 29 M. Epstein A. Coney Island, Seagate, in Brooklyn. 3 Q. And did you go to the same school as 4 your brother then? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What schools were those? 7 A. P.S. 188 for elementary school, Mark 8 Twain Junior High School and Lafayette High 9 School. 10 Q. And at Lafayette High School, were 11 you familiar with any of your brother's 12 girlfriends? 13 A. Probably. I don't remember who they • 14 15 were. I don't remember my own girlfriends from high school. 16 Q. Did your brother ever have boyfriends 17 at that age? 18 MR. CRITTON: Form. 19 A. What do you mean by boyfriends? You 20 mean friends that were boys? 21 Q. No, I mean was he sexually involved 22 with boys in high school? 23 A. No, not that I know of. 24 MR. COHEN: Objection. 25 MR. CRITTON: Form. • 0 Toll Free: Free Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esqulresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 31 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108579 EFTA01249355 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 30 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. Do you know of your brother to engage 3 in homosexual sex? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 MR. CRITTON: Form. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. 7 Q. Do you know Leslie Wexner? 8 A. I never met him, but I knew of him. 9 Q. How do you know him? 10 A. He is a public figure. He owns The 11 Limited. 12 Q. Have you ever been told that your 13 brother and Leslie Wexner have a long time 14 15 sexual relationship? MR. CRITTON: Form. • 16 A. No. 17 MR. COHEN: Same objection. 18 Q. That's not something your brother's 19 ever told you? 20 MR. CRITTON: Form. 21 A. No. 22 Q. I know you said that you and your 23 brother don't talk about business much. 24 Do you talk about his girlfriends, 25 boyfriends, sex life, anything like that? Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolvtloos.com 3501.294-001 Page 32 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108580 EFTA01249356 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 31 • 2 A. No. M. Epstein 3 Q. Have you ever worked with your 4 brother? 5 A. No. 6 Q. After high school, where did your 7 brother go? 8 A. To school, you mean? 9 Q. Sure. 10 A. Cooper Union. 11 Q. And do you know what he studied 12 there? 13 A. He majored in physics, I think. • 14 15 Q. A. Did he graduate? No. No. 16 Q. After Cooper Union, where did he go? 17 A. NYU, The Courant Institute. It's the 18 math graduate program there. 19 Q• Do you know what he studied there? 20 A. It's the math graduate program there. 21 He studied mathematics. 22 Q. Did he graduate from NYU? 23 A. Not that I know of. 24 Q. Do you know where he went after NYU? 25 A. Home. • 0 Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 33 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108581 EFTA01249357 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 32 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. For how long? 3 A. What do you mean where did he go 4 after? I don't understand your question. 5 Q. Did he go to work? Did he stay in 6 school; masters, doctorate program? 7 A. He went to work. 8 Q. Where did he go to work? 9 A. He started teaching, I don't know if 10 it was immediately after, but I know he was 11 teaching for a while. 12 Q. Where did he teach? 13 A. Dalton. 14 15 Q. A. Was that a high school? I'm not sure what year it starts. It • 16 might be K through 12. I don't know what 17 Dalton is. 18 Q. By this point in time in your 19 brother's life, your life, were you already 20 going your separate ways or were you still -- 21 A. No, we were still close then. 22 Q. You were close with your brother 23 through high school and at least up to the 24 point we are now at when your brother left NYU 25 and he started working at Dalton? 0 Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fat Lauderdale, Fl. 33301 www.esoulresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 34 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108582 EFTA01249358 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 33 • 2 A. Yes. M. Epstein 3 Q. What was he doing in terms of at 4 Dalton, was he a math teacher, a piano 5 teacher? 6 A. Math teacher, I believe. 7 Q. Did you ever know him to teach piano? 8 A. No. At Dalton? 9 Q. Right. 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. He plays very well. I don't know if 13 he taught it. • 14 15 Q. See we can only go off of what we read in the papers too. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. How long was he at Dalton, to your 18 knowledge? 19 A. A couple of years or so. I don't 20 know. 21 Q. All right. And what was his next 22 employment after Dalton? 23 A. I think he went to Bear Stearns. 24 Q. Do you know how he got that job at 25 Bear Stearns? • 0 Suite 1300 ESQVIBL S15 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 35 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108583 EFTA01249359 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 34 1 M. Epstein 2 A. Yeah. He met, what's his name? Ace 3 Greenberg, who was, I think the number 2 guy 4 at Bear Stearns at the time. 5 And my brother was hired to help them 6 set up their options departments. They were 7 just getting involved with options, as far as 8 I remember. 9 Q. All right. How long was he at Bear 10 Stearns? 11 A. A few years. 12 Q. What year did your brother graduate 13 high school? 14 15 A. I got out in '71, so I guess he got out in '69, I think. • 16 Q. From Lafayette? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know what year it was that he 19 first started at Bear Stearns? 20 A. Somewhere around '76. 21 Q. Do you know why it is he left Bear 22 Stearns? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you talk to him much while he was 25 at Bear Stearns? Were you still close then? S Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIT3 4, 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutloos.com 3501.294-001 Page 36 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108584 EFTA01249360 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 35 • 1 2 A. M. Epstein Pretty much, yes. 3 Q. And, I'm sorry, did you know what 4 year he left Bear Stearns? 5 A. No. Around what year he left? No. 6 Q. Do you know about how long he worked 7 there, five years? 8 A. A few years is the closest I can tell 9 you. 10 Q. I know you told us what he did when 11 he started. Do you know what he was doing 12 when he finished? 13 A. No. • 14 15 Q. Were you aware of any problems that he had at Bear Stearns? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were you aware of any insider-trading 18 investigation involving -- or where your 19 brother was a witness at Bear Stearns? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And do you know why it is that your 22 brother left Bear Stearns? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know where he went to work 25 after he left Bear Stearns? • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 37 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108585 EFTA01249361 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 36 1 2 A. M. Epstein I know for a while he was working on • 3 his own going after insider-trading, and also 4 recouping money for people. 5 Q. Okay. What does that mean? Just 6 elaborate? 7 A. Well, there were people who got burnt 8 by brokers who were doing -- there were a lot 9 of insider-trading things going on. And a lot 10 of investors got burnt. 11 And my brother was working with an 12 attorney, and they were going after the 13 brokers and trying to recoup money for the 14 15 investors that got burnt. Q. Was he also working for the federal • 16 government to recover money for the government 17 as well? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q. He never told you that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know what companies he was 22 working for to recover money? 23 A. I think he was working for himself. 24 Q. Do you know what the company was 25 called? • Ta1F Facsirrril Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vornv.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 38 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108586 EFTA01249362 Mark Epstein September 21. 21 37 • 1 2 A. No. M. Epstein 3 Q. Do you know how long he had that 4 company open? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Was it a successful company? 7 A. I think so. 8 Q. Where is the next place he went? 9 A. I don't know if he ever worked for 10 anybody else except for himself after that. 11 Q. All right. What is the next endeavor 12 that he pursued then? 13 A. He was just -- had the company he • 14 15 had, I guess. know. Managing money, as far as I 16 Q. Okay. But managing money is 17 something different than being a money bounty 18 hunter? 19 A. Well, after the bounty hunter he was 20 working managing money for people. That's 21 all. 22 Q. Do you know how he started that 23 company? 24 A. No, I don't. 25 Q. Were you still close with him then? • 0 & IN Toll F FarsanllM ESQUIRE, 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 39 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108587 EFTA01249363 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 38 1 M. Epstein 2 A. Not as, but we were still kind of 3 close. We didn't talk business. I had my 4 businesses, which kept me very busy, and he 5 had his. 6 And when we'd talk, a lot of our 7 conversations had to do with our parents. We 8 had our own group of friends. He lived 9 uptown, I lived downtown. Different worlds. 10 Q. At this point in time he was still 11 living in New York? 12 A. Yes, or he might have had a Florida 13 house then, I'm not sure if he did at that 14 15 point. I don't remember when he first got that place, but he's had it for a while. • 16 Q. That's the house at 17 18 A. I don't know the number, but it's Old 19 Brillo. 20 Q. The same house in West Palm Beach, 21 that's the house we are talking about? 22 A. I believe so. 23 Q. Has your brother ever discussed 24 working for the government, either back in the 25 Bear Stearns days, afterwards, up through the Toll F Facslmr Suite 1300 • ESQL1J4X, SIB East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 40 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108588 EFTA01249364 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 39 • 1 2 present? M. Epstein 3 A. Not to me. 4 Q. Has he ever indicated to you that he 5 was to be a confidential informant for the 6 government? 7 A. No. 8 Q. When is the first time that you 9 remember your brother having some sort of an 10 affiliation with Leslie Wexner? 11 A. It's a while ago. I'm not sure 12 exactly when, but at least 10 -- I'm trying to 13 think where I was in my life. • 14 15 I don't know, maybe 20 years ago. don't know how long he has been working with I 16 him, but he has been working with him for a 17 while. 18 Q. Do you know where they met? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know what brought them 21 together? 22 A. Somebody introduced them. Somebody 23 introduced them, somebody who was in the 24 insurance business. 25 Q. Do you remember who that was? • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: kin ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 41 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108589 EFTA01249365 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 40 1 M. Epstein 2 A. No. 3 Q. And what was your understanding of 4 the relationship between your brother and 5 Leslie Wexner? 6 A. He manages money. 7 Q. As far as you knew, that's all that 8 there was? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you remember at any point in time 11 your brother being sexually abused when he was 12 younger? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Would you know it if it happened? 15 A. By who? 16 Q. Anybody. 17 A. No. When we were kids I would have 18 probably known about it. 19 Q. Do you know of him ever seeing a 20 psychologist in his lifetime? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So even through today's date, to the 23 best of your knowledge, he hasn't seen one? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. When did you first learn that your Toll Free: 800.211.3376 FacsimIle: 954.331.4418 S Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esqulresoiu0ons.com 3501.294-001 Page 42 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108590 EFTA01249366 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 41 • 1 2 M. Epstein brother, as an adult, was sexually attracted 3 to young girls? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection. 5 A. I didn't learn that. I mean, I saw 6 it in the newspapers, but that's newspapers. 7 I never heard anything directly I didn't know. 8 Q. The first time you ever knew it was 9 the same way that we learned it, was through 10 the newspapers? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Once he started working for Bear 13 Stearns, did you hang out with your brother on • 14 15 a personal level? A. Not very often. 16 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, one second. 17 (Brief pause.) 18 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. Has anyone ever asked you about his 21 attraction to young girls? 22 A. No. People made comments about the 23 newspaper articles what they were hearing, but 24 they didn't ask me. It was just more of 25 letting me know that they knew what was going Toll Free: 800.211.3376 • Facsimile: 954.331.4418 Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, Fl. 33301 vnvrtesQuiresOlutiOnS.COrn 3501.294-001 Page 43 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108591 EFTA01249367 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 42 1 M. Epstein • 2 on. 3 Q. Who would that have been? 4 A. Friends, mutual acquaintances, people 5 I knew. People started 6-mailing me telling 6 me my brother was in the newspaper. So I got, 7 you know -- 8 Q. When was that? 9 A. Whenever the articles starting coming 10 in. 11 Q. But there were articles on your 12 brother that precede the criminal 13 investigation. And there are people that knew 14 15 your brother and saw him around town prior to that investigation. • 16 Anybody tell you about his attraction 17 to young girls back then or ask you about it? 18 A. No. Most people that we know know 19 that we are not that close and they don't talk 20 to me about him and, you know, the only people 21 that we know together are really people from 22 the old days. 23 Q. Okay. So is this really -- other 24 than newspaper articles, this deposition, as 25 we sit here today and my previous statements Toll Free: 800.211.3376 Facsimile: 954.331.4418 Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Ohs Boulevard Fat Lauderdale, FL 33301 vonv.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 44 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108592 EFTA01249368 Mark Epstein September 21, 2C i 43 • 2 M. Epstein that he engaged in sex with under-age girls, 3 is the first you are hearing of it? 4 A. Well, other than the newspaper 5 articles? 6 Q. Right. 7 A. Yes. I mean, I read some things in 8 the papers about it. I don't understand your 9 question. 10 Q. Has anybody else ever talked to you 11 about, you know, your brother is engaging in 12 sex with under-age girls or targeting young 13 girls for sex? • 14 15 A. Q. No. Do you now have any business 16 relationship with your brother? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever? 19 A. What do you mean by business 20 relationship? 21 When we were kids we used to lend 22 each other money. So I don't want to say no 23 and get caught for saying something like that, 24 but we are not in business together. Our 25 names have never appeared on any business Toll Free • Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wwmesquimsollMomcom 3501.294-001 Page 45 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108593 EFTA01249369 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 44 1 M. Epstein • 2 document together. 3 Q. And why is that? Obviously your 4 brother is very successful, so why would you 5 not be associated with him? 6 A. I made my own success. 7 Q. What is your brother's current net 8 worth? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 Q. Do you know approximately what it is? 11 A. I don't know my net worth. I don't 12 know his. 13 Q. What properties does he own that you 14 15 know of? A. He has a house in Florida, a house in • 16 New York and a house in New Mexico. 17 Q. Have you been to the ranch in New 18 Mexico? 19 A. I was only at the property once, 20 before he built anything. After he bought it, 21 I was in New Mexico. 22 Q. How long were you there? 23 A. I was in New Mexico three or 24 four days. 25 Q. With your brother? 0 Toll Fn Facslml Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vnvw.esquiresolutionS.com 3501.294-001 Page 46 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108594 EFTA01249370 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 45 • 1 2 A. No. M. Epstein 3 Q. How many times have you been at his 4 Florida house the same time he was there? 5 A. Not in the last decade ever. 6 Q. Prior to the last decade, I think you 7 told me a dozen times? 8 A. 20 years ago, probably a couple dozen 9 times. 10 Q. And how long would you stay? Would 11 you ever stay there overnight? 12 A. Yes. Years ago, I would maybe for a 13 couple of days, for a weekend. I was working • 14 15 then, so I'd only have weekends. Q. During that period of time, would he 16 have girls coming over during the day? 17 A. No, he had a girlfriend at the time 18 most of the time. 19 Q. Who was that? 20 A. Early on there was this girl Eva 21 Anderson. It was an old girlfriend. 22 Q. Do you know where she is now? 23 A. In New York. 24 Q. Do you know her address? 25 A. She is Uptown on the east side • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 47 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108595 EFTA01249371 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 46 1 M. Epstein 2 somewhere. 3 Q. Do you know any of his other adult 4 girlfriends? 5 A. No. No. 6 Well, I don't know how to 7 characterize. I know some females that he 8 knew from years back but, you know, I'm not 9 sure if they were girlfriends. I don't know 10 what their relationship was. 11 Q. Who are those people? 12 A. Well, there was a (Glynn) Ghislaine 13 Maxwell. 14 15 Q. A. How do you know Ghislaine Maxwell? I met her through my brother. • 16 Q. How many times have you been around 17 or hung out with Ghislaine Maxwell? 18 A. Maybe a dozen or so, but we met 19 when -- about the time -- my father and her 20 father died about the same time. 21 My father died in 1991, so in that 22 period of time almost 20 years ago, I used to 23 see her more frequently. 24 Q• How frequently would you see her? 25 A. Then? 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esoulresolutions.00m 3501.294-001 Page 48 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108596 EFTA01249372 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 47 • 2 Q. Yes. M. Epstein 3 A. Monthly. 4 Q. Would it always be with your brother? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You met her through your brother? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was your understanding of the 9 relationship between Ghislaine Maxwell and 10 your brother? 11 A. Well, they were friends, and she 12 worked for him. 13 Q. Did she ever live with him? • 14 15 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. I think she always had her own place, so I don't know 16 if she lived with him or not. 17 Q. When you say that she worked for him, 18 what did she do for him? 19 A. I know she helped take care of the 20 properties, like hiring the household help. 21 Q. Did you ever hear that she helped to 22 bring young girls to him for sex? 23 A. I read that somewhere in one of the 24 articles. 25 Q. Is that something, knowing Ghislaine • Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.00m 3501.294-001 Page 49 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108597 EFTA01249373 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 48 1 M. Epstein 2 Maxwell and knowing your brother, would that 3 surprise you to hear that? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection. 5 A. I don't know Ghislaine Maxwell. I 6 mean I know her, but you can tell me anything, 7 it's not going to surprise me. 8 Q. When you would see your brother and 9 Ghislaine Maxwell, where would you be; at his 10 house, at a function, out to dinner? 11 A. Probably at his house more than 12 anything. 13 Q. Which house would that be? 14 15 A. Q. More likely Florida. Do you know how he met her? • 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know where she is now? 18 A. No. 19 Q. When is the last time you saw 20 Ghislaine Maxwell? 21 A. Probably around when my mother died, 22 that's five and a half years ago. 23 Q. Have you ever met Leslie Wexner? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you ever met Donald Trump? • Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 50 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108598 EFTA01249374 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 49 M. Epstein A. Yes. Q. Was that through your brother? A. Yes. Q. Where was that? A. We flew up on my brother's plane from 7 Florida together. Donald was on the plane. 8 Q. When? 9 A. Somewhere between 5 and 10 years ago. 10 Q. Okay. So we are talking about -- 11 A. It's either late '90's early 2000. 12 Probably more like late '90's. 13 Q. Was that the only time you've met • 14 Donald Trump? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which plane was this of your 17 brother's? 18 A. I don't remember. 19 Q. Was this one of the big planes, the 20 727? 21 A. No. It wasn't that one, no. 22 Q. Okay. How many people were on this 23 airplane? 24 A. It was my brother, myself, Donald, 25 the pilot the co-pilot. I don't remember -- I • 0 roll Re Faaslmll Suite 1300 ESQUIRE S1S East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esquIresolutlais.com 3501.294-001 Page 51 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108599 EFTA01249375 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 50 1 M. Epstein 2 don't remember if anybody else was on the 3 plane. 4 Q. What was the purpose of Donald Trump riding on your brother's airplane? 6 A. You'll have to ask Donald. I think 7 he wanted a ride back to New York. 8 Q. What was your understanding of the 9 relationship of Donald Trump and your brother? 10 A. They were friends. 11 Q. Do you know how they met? 12 A. No. 13 Q. When you say "friends," how 14 15 frequently did they associate? A. I have no idea. • 16 Q. What was your understanding did 17 you -- 18 A. I had no understanding. They were 19 friends. That was my understanding. 20 Q. When they were in the airplane 21 together, they talked as if they were friends? 22 A. Yeah, I talked to him like he was my 23 friend. I never met the guy. I am a friendly 24 guy. 25 Q. Were there girls on the plane? 0 Toll Fre Facsimil • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard FOrt Lauderdale, Fl. 33301 www.eSquIreSOlutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 52 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108600 EFTA01249376 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 51 • 1 2 A. M. Epstein I don't remember who was on the 3 plane. I don't remember if anybody else was 4 on the plane. 5 Q. Do you know if the pilot was? 6 A. Yeah. He had a pilot and a co-pilot 7 for a long time. The co-pilot's name was 8 Larry. And the pilot's name -- I have his 9 picture in my face -- into my head, but I 10 don't remember his name. 11 Q. Larry Kisofsky. Does that sound -- 12 A. I don't know his last name. His name 13 is Larry. • 14 15 him? Q. Is that somebody that still works for 16 A. I have no idea. 17 Q. When did your brother get his first 18 airplane? 19 A. Probably around 1990. Somewhere 20 around there, because he had it when my father 21 was in the hospital in '91. 22 Q. You remember that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Was your father ever on his airplane? 25 A. I don't remember. • Toll Free Famirnile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutloriS.com 3501.294-001 Page 53 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108601 EFTA01249377 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 52 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. Okay. And how many times do you 3 think that you've been on one of your 4 brother's airplanes with your brother? 5 A. Less than a dozen. 6 Q. And any of the times that you were on 7 the airplane, were there girls on the airplane 8 with you? 9 A. What do you mean girls? There were 10 women on the plane. 11 Q. Okay. Ever any under-age girls? 12 A. I don't think so. 13 Q. So they were young girls, you don't 14 15 know if they were under-age? A. I'm not going to speculate on their • 16 ages. 17 Q. Did you know these girls, or were 18 these girls that were familiar with your 19 brother? 20 A. I didn't know them. I mean, unless 21 it was Ghislaine or Eva years ago, but 22 otherwise I didn't know them. 23 Q. But the specific girls I'm talking 24 about are the girls you are not going to 25 speculate on their age. S Toll FreeIn Facsimile • ESQVIBE, 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 54 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108602 EFTA01249378 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 53 • 1 2 M. Epstein Were these girls your brother had on 3 the plane because he knew them or did you know 4 them, I guess that's my question? 5 A. It wasn't me, no. 6 No, once I flew down to Florida on 7 his plane and I had a girlfriend with me, one 8 of my girlfriends at the time. 9 Q. Did you ever know of any sex or sex 10 acts to go on on the airplane with your 11 brother? 12 A. Not when I was there. 13 Q. When you would fly on his airplane, • 14 15 would this be from New York to Florida or vice versa? 16 A. Yeah. And then there were a couple 17 of times that I flew to or flew back to 18 Cleveland. 19 so I flew on the 20 plane then. 21 Q. And do you know did you ever meet 22 David Copperfield? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you ever meet Alan Dershowitz? 25 A. I might have met him once. • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresokrtions.corn 3501.294-001 Page 55 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 001086,03 EFTA01249379 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 54 1 2 Q. M. Epstein Where would that have been? • 3 A. In Florida. 4 Q. What was the occasion? 5 A. I went to Jeff's house for something, 6 and I think Alan was there and I think he 7 introduced us. 8 Q. How long ago was that? 9 A. A long time ago. 10 Q. '90's? 11 A. It would have to be. 12 Q. Have you ever met Bill Clinton? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. A. Through your brother? No. • 16 Q. Have you ever been with your brother 17 at a time when Bill Clinton was also around? 18 A. I don't understand your question. 19 Q• Did you ever go to your brother's 20 house when Bill Clinton was also there? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Have you ever been on your brother's 23 airplane with Bill Clinton? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you ever known Bill Clinton to Toll Free: Facsimile:Ma • S Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las C4as Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.corn 3501.294-001 Page 56 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108604 EFTA01249380 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 55 • 1 2 M. Epstein fly on your brother's airplane? 3 A. I read that he went to Africa on his 4 plane. 5 Q. Did you know of him to fly on your 6 brother's airplane on any occasions other than 7 when they went to Africa? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever met Kevin Spacey? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Chris Tucker? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know what your brother's • 14 15 relationship is with Bill Clinton? A. He knew him, he flew him to Africa. 16 I don't know how he met him. I don't know 17 what their relationship is. 18 Q. Other than the flight to Africa, has 19 your brother ever talked to you about his 20 relationship with Bill Clinton? 21 A. He mentioned they were somewhere 22 once, it might have been in Europe. And I 23 think he mentioned something about Bill 24 Clinton. I'm not sure, but I think there was 25 someplace that he was and Clinton was there, • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE SIS East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 57 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108605 EFTA01249381 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 56 1 M. Epstein 2 and he mentioned that he was there and Clinton 3 was there, but... 4 Q. Has he ever mentioned to you that he 5 provided girls to Bill Clinton? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you ever met Prince Andrew? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Has your brother ever discussed his 10 relationship with Prince Andrew? 11 A. I know he knew him, or he saw him. 12 That's all. 13 Q. What is your understanding as to how 14 15 your brother made his money? A. I don't have an understanding of it. • 16 Q. He's never talked to you about that? 17 A. No. He is an investor. He invested 18 things. As far as I know, he invested money. 19 Q. Do you know who his clients are? 20 A. Other than Wexner, no. 21 Q. Do you believe he has any other 22 clients other than Wexner? 23 A. I have no idea. I never questioned 24 it. 25 Q. How do you know Wexner was his • Toll F Facslm Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.espulresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 58 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108606 EFTA01249382 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 57 • 1 2 client? M. Epstein 3 A. Wexner was his client really early 4 on. He told me about it. 5 Q. Was Wexner his only client that he 6 ever talked about? 7 A. Again, we don't talk business. I 8 didn't tell him about many of my clients 9 either. 10 Q. Is it your understanding that Leslie 11 Wexner is no longer your brother's client? 12 A. I have no idea. 13 Q. Do you know how your brother's • 14 15 business is doing now? A. I have no idea. 16 Q. When you call Florida to make sure he 17 is doing all right, isn't one of the main 18 things your brother does is business; and 19 aren't you asking essentially, is your 20 business doing all right? 21 A. No, I'm asking him how his health is. 22 Q. So he responds that his health is 23 fine, and that's basically the end of the 24 telephone call? 25 A. Yeah, or we'll tell each other a • 0 Toll Free: Fealty'He: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las OW Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wmcesqulmsolutIonsxoin 3501.294-001 Page 59 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFrA_0010807 EFTA01249383 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 58 1 M. Epstein 2 funny story about something, about some 3 friends or whatever. 4 Q. Do you know who his closest friends 5 are these days? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know of any friends of your 8 brother's who are not also on your brother's 9 payroll? 10 A. I don't know his friends. 11 Q. Do you know who his assistants are 12 these days? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. for him? Is ■ does she still work • 16 A. I have no idea. 17 Q. When is the last time you saw 18 19 A. I don't think I saw If 20 I met her, it was a few years ago. 21 Q. Where would that have been? 22 A. Maybe 23 Q. And how many occasions have you ever 24 seen 25 A. Once or twice. I once saw her in the O Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las alas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresoludons.com 3501.294-001 Page 60 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108608 EFTA01249384 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 59 • 2 elevator of M. Epstein 3 Q. Other than at have you seen 4 anywhere else? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know of relationship 7 with your brother? 8 A. No. 9 Q. I know I asked you about Jean Luc 10 Brunel, I don't remember did I ask you whether 11 you are familiar with the modeling company MC 12 Squared? 13 A. Yes, you did. • 14 15 Q. MR. COHEN: You did. Are you familiar with the modeling 16 company Karin Models? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever attempted to ascertain 19 who is staying in the various apartments that 20 your brother rents at 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are they usually occupied? 23 A. I have no idea. 24 Q. What is your obligation to that 25 property? What do you do? • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvattesquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 61 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108609 EFTA01249385 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 60 1 2 A. Nothing. M. Epstein • 3 Q. What does your company do for that 4 property? 5 A. We own most of it and manage it. 6 Q. Well, in managing it, what does that 7 entail? 8 A. Leasing out spaces, paying the bills. 9 Q. Something breaks, you fix it? 10 A. Well, we have staff there that takes 11 care of that, yes. 12 Q. Who would the staff member be that 13 would -- 14 15 A. Q. A guy named Andy is the head super. Andy who? • 16 A. I don't know his last name. 17 Q. This is the head supervisor for your 18 company? 19 A. For that building. He is the 20 superintendent for that building. 21 Q. Have you ever had that position of 22 superintendent for that building? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Ever owned real estate with your 25 brother? Toll Free: FacsirMe: Stilm1300 • ESQUIRE 515ftgLasMas&ademrd Fortialuderdale,R33301 womesquimWutions.am 3501.294-001 Page 62 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108610 EFTA01249386 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 61 M. Epstein A. No. Q• Do you know of the name 5 A. No. 6 Q. Leslie Groff? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you talk to your brother about 9 the criminal investigation when it began? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. 11 Asked and answered. 12 A. No. 13 Q. I know you call now to check on his • 14 health. Did it concern you that he was being 15 criminally investigated? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. 17 A. Well, it concerned me, he is my 18 brother. 19 Q. So why is it you didn't have that 20 conversation with him? 21 A. If there was something he wanted to 22 tell me, he would have told me. 23 O. And that's not something he ever 24 talked to you about? 25 A. Right. Toll Free • FaalmIle Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esquIresoludons.corn 3501.294-001 Page 63 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108611 EFTA01249387 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 62 1 2 M. Epstein • Q. And even though the allegations -- 3 you are familiar with the allegations; right? 4 A. Some, I guess. 5 Q. The allegations are that he was 6 engaging in sex with under-age girls. 7 That's not something that you wanted 8 to take upon yourself to talk to your brother 9 about? 10 A. No. 11 Q. It's not something that really 12 bothers you? 13 A. No -- 14 15 A. MR. COHEN: Objection. -- no more than anybody else being • 16 accused of that. 17 Q. If you found that to be true, 18 hypothetically, you find that it's true that 19 your brother is engaging in sex with 20 under-aged girls; 13, 14, 15-year old girls, 21 is that something that you would discuss with 22 him? 23 MR. COHEN: Objection. 24 A. I'll use one of my mother's lines, 25 I'll worry about that when the time comes. S Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.eSpulneSolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 64 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108612 EFTA01249388 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 63 • 1 2 Q. M. Epstein You realize that he has plead guilty 3 to that; right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So hasn't the time come? 6 A. No, not for me. I know it was a plea 7 deal, so I don't know the details. 8 Like I said, he pled guilty to some 9 prostitution charge. So you are representing 10 a bunch of prostitutes if I just go by what 11 the law says. So, you know, I don't pay 12 attention to that. 13 Q. If the evidence in this case are that • 14 15 these girls are in middle school and high school, some of them are virgins and none of 16 them have engaged in prostitution prior to 17 meeting your brother, does that change? 18 A. Your question started with an "if." 19 I'm not going to speculate on anything. 20 MR. COHEN: Mr. Edwards, can we take 21 a short bathroom break? 22 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 12:33, off the 24 record. 25 (Discussion held off the record.) • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 65 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108613 EFTA01249389 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 64 1 M. Epstein 2 MR. COHEN: Let's go back on the 3 record. Are all counsel who appeared by phone 4 on the phone now? 5 THE WITNESS: If anybody's not do 6 speak up. Should we do another roll call? 7 MR. CRITTON: This is Bob Critton. 8 Let me just put on the record, I recognized 9 about just before we took the break I must 10 have bumped my microphone. 11 So when I've been inserting 12 objections, and based on what the court 13 reporter indicated, she hadn't heard me for 14 15 about 30 or 35 minutes. I just want to assert, any question • 16 that had either a leading, isn't it true, or a 17 suggestion that Mr. Jeffrey Epstein had some 18 sexual contact or contact with under-age 19 girls, I would have objected to. 20 I did object to, apparently it didn't 21 come through; any leading guess, any questions 22 for which there was no predicate, I have no 23 objection to the actual questions with regard 24 to who was on the plane, or if he saw his 25 brother, what the discussions they had, but 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esguiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 66 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108614 EFTA01249390 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 65 • 2 M. Epstein any other questions to suggest the answer or 3 leading question, I would reserve that 4 objection on form. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. 6 MR. CRITTON: My microphone's on now. 7 You'll have to hear me. 8 MR. EDWARDS: That's unfortunate. 9 MR. CRITTON: Thank you for your warm 10 reception. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 12:40. 12 On the record. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: • 14 15 Q. When you were at your brother's house in Palm Beach, I know you said it was 10 years 16 ago, how many computers would you estimate 17 were in the house? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q. Did he ever talk to you after the 20 criminal investigation about the computer 21 evidence that there is in this case? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever go visit your brother 24 when he was in jail? 25 A. No. • • Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.com 350)294-00) Page 67 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 001086I5 EFTA01249391 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 66 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you? 5 A. I did not go. 6 Q. Right. Why wouldn't you go visit 7 your brother in jail? 8 A. Timing, part of it. I have my own 9 life up in New York. We'd speak occasionally, 10 I knew he was okay. I don't see him that much 11 when he was in New York, so... 12 Q. Okay. What was done with the 13 computers in your parents' house when your 14 15 parents passed away? A. My mother had a computer. I think I • 16 took it for my kids. 17 Q. Is that a computer that your brother 18 ever worked on or used? 19 A. I doubt it. 20 Q. Did you ever know your brother to 21 share images by way of computers of under-age 22 girls or young looking girls? 23 MR. CRITTON: Form. 24 A. He rarely E-mailed, so I don't even 25 know if he had any use for computers. Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.espuIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 68 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108616 EFTA01249392 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 67 • 1 2 Q. M. Epstein What was his E-mail address, or what 3 is his E-mail address? 4 MR. CRITTON: Form. 5 A. I don't know it by heart. 6 Q. Do you know who the server is, 7 Hotmail, Gmail? 8 A. No. 9 Q. AOL? 10 A. No, I don't know it by heart. 11 Q. When you say he rarely E-mails -- 12 A. Well, then. Then, I used to never 13 get E-mails from him, but more recently I got • 14 15 a couple, some, but there is not a lot of E-mail communication back and forth. 16 Q. Okay. In the last year and a half, 17 how many E-mails have you received from your 18 brother? 19 A. I just had a spate of them, half a 20 dozen or a dozen or so, because there is a 21 reunion coming up for all the old Coney Island 22 kids, so we've been talking about that. 23 Q. Is your brother planning on 24 attending? 25 A. I don't think so. • 0 Toll Fre Facsimil Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutloos.com 3501.294-001 Page 69 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFIA_00108617 EFTA01249393 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 68 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. When is it? 3 A. In October. 4 Q. So what has been the substance of the 5 conversation if your brother's not planning on 6 coming? 7 A. Who is going, that kind of stuff. 8 And just some funny pictures that came up on 9 some of our old friends and what they look 10 like today. It's kind of comical. 11 Q. Do you know where your brother is 12 working right now? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. Have you heard of the Florida Science Foundation? • 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is it? 18 A. I have no idea. 19 Q. How have you heard of it? 20 A. That is where he was working on his 21 work release. 22 Q. How do you know that? 23 A. He called me and I called there, and 24 when they answered the phone they said Florida 25 Science Foundation. Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 70 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108618 EFTA01249394 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 69 • 2 Q. M. Epstein Did you ever ask him what the Florida 3 Science Foundation does? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you known your brother to be 6 into science? 7 A. Yes, very much. Q. Since when? 9 A. His whole life. 10 Q. How many times have you talked to him 11 since he was arrested? 12 A. When was he arrested? 13 Q. Back in 2005, 2006? • 14 15 A. Q. Altogether, a couple of dozen times. And what is the substance of that 16 conversation, other than you asking if he is 17 in good health? 18 A. About friends, family stuff. 19 Q. When is the first time that you know 20 of your brother targeting young girls -- 21 A. I don't know that. 22 Q. -- For sex? 23 MR. COHEN: Objection. 24 MR. CRITTON: Form, last question. 25 MR. COHEN: Also asked and answered. • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 51S East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresoludons.corn 3501.294-001 Page 71 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108619 EFTA01249395 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 70 1 M. Epstein • 2 MR. CRITTON: About three times. 3 Q. Have you known of your brother ever 4 hiring prostitutes? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Has your brother ever discussed with 7 you the manner in which he lures 13 or 14 or 8 15-year old kids to the house? 9 MR. CRITTON: Form. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. 11 A. Yes. I'm not going to answer that 12 question. It's a leading question. 13 Q. Well, I'm asking you an open 14 15 question. manner -- Has he ever talked to you about the • 16 A. That is assuming he does it. I'm not 17 assuming he does anything. We don't talk 18 about girls. We don't talk about young girls. 19 MR. CRITTON: Objection to the last 20 question. 21 Q. On several occasions during this 22 deposition you've referred to these girls as 23 prostitutes. 24 Do you know any of them? 25 A. No. 0 Toll Free: Eaalmlle: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las alas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esquIresolutIons.corn 3501.294-001 Page 72 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108620 EFTA01249396 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 71 • 2 Q. M. Epstein Do you know their parents? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know who they were before they 5 met your brother? 6 A. Not a clue. 7 Q• Do you know what your brother did 8 with them? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know who they are today? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So why is it that you call all of 13 these girls prostitutes? • 14 15 A. Well, I said some of them. the charge he pled guilty to, from what I I mean 16 understand, is something to do with 17 prostitution. 18 So if these are the girls involved in 19 that, that by definition makes them 20 prostitutes. The way I -- that, to me, is 21 English. 22 Q. So the basis for you referring to 23 these girls as prostitutes, is that your 24 brother pled guilty to a prostitution charge? 25 A. Yeah. What else do I have to go by? • 0 ToIIF Facsimil Suite 1300 ESQUI 0g, 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vrww.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 73 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108621 EFTA01249397 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 72 1 M. Epstein 2 I mean, you usually don't get charged for 3 prostitution unless there is a prostitute. 4 MR. COHEN: Let him ask the question. 5 Q. Okay, but these are young girls that 6 you are calling prostitutes that you don't 7 know their family; right? 8 A. I have no idea. I've already 9 answered that. 10 MR. CRITTON: Form. 11 You asked him to speculate and now 12 you are going after him. 13 I think that is inappropriate. 14 15 Q. In the conversations that you've had with your brother since his arrest, has he • 16 ever expressed to you the least bit of remorse 17 for anything that he has done? 18 MR. CRITTON: Form. Predicate. 19 A. We didn't talk about what he's done. 20 Q. So then the answer is no then; right? 21 MR. CRITTON: Form. 22 MR. COHEN: Same objection. 23 A. The answer to what I said is no, the 24 way I put it. 25 MR. EDWARDS: I don't have anything CO Toll F Nicker:1 • ESQUIRE Suite 1300 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, Ft. 33301 www.esoulresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 74 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108622 EFTA01249398 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 73 • 2 right now. M. Epstein 3 Anybody else? 4 MR. COHEN: Okay. It sounds like no 5 one has any questions. 6 MR. LANGINO: Yeah, we have 7 questions. I don't know who comes next. 8 MS. EZELL: Go ahead, Richard. 9 MR. COHEN: Sir, can you identify 10 yourself? 11 MR. WILLITS: Okay. Richard Willits 12 here. I'm going to ask a few questions. 13 EXAMINATION BY • 14 15 MR. WILLITS: Q. Mr. Epstein, approximately when were 16 you served with a subpoena? 17 A. A couple of weeks ago. I think it 18 was -- no, a few weeks ago. I don't remember. 19 Q. Since you -- at the time you got 20 served with a subpoena, did you have any 21 discussions with your brother about your 22 upcoming deposition? 23 A. No, I told him I was served with a 24 subpoena. 25 Q. And what did he tell you? • 0 Toll Fret Facsimi Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 svww.espulresolutlonBoom 3501.294-001 Page 75 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108623 EFTA01249399 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 74 1 M. Epstein • 2 A. He said he is sorry that I had to get 3 dragged into this. 4 Q. Did you have any other discussions 5 about the deposition? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you have a lawyer there 8 representing you today? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Are you paying for that lawyer? 11 A. Is this pertinent? 12 MR. COHEN: You can answer. It's 13 okay. 14 15 Q. THE WITNESS: What was your question? Are you personally paying for the • 16 lawyer who is there representing you today? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Who is paying? 19 A. Jeffrey. 20 MR. WILLITS: I don't have any other 21 questions. 22 THE COURT REPORTER: Who is next? 23 Identify yourself, please? 24 MS. EZELL: I have just a couple of 25 questions, Mr. Epstein. 0 Toll Fre Fadmil Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vnvw.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 76 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108624 EFTA01249400 Mark Epstein September 21, 75 • 2 M. Epstein THE WITNESS: Go ahead. 3 EXAMINATION BY 4 MS. EZELL: 5 Q. -- And in New York, and I didn't 6 quite catch the address? 7 A. I'm sorry, you were breaking up. 8 Could you repeat the question? 9 Q. I'm going to ask you about the 10 apartment building in New York where you said 11 your ex-wife lives. 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. I didn't catch the name of the • 14 15 partnership that owns that? A. D-a-r-a, Dara. 16 Q. And you are a partner in that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Jeffrey Epstein? 19 A. Excuse me? 20 Q. Jeffrey Epstein is also a partner in 21 that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you -- 24 MR. EDWARDS: Kathy, we can't hear 25 you. • 0 Toll Fre FacsIrre Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las alas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wenv.esquiresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 77 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108625 EFTA01249401 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 76 1 M. Epstein 2 MS. EZELL: Can you hear me now? 3 MR. COHEN: You just faded back in. 4 BY MS. EZELL: S Q. Your brother has the capacity to make 6 people believe that he is interested in them? 7 MR. COHEN: Can we have the question 8 again? 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't get that. 10 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, could you 11 repeat that, you were fading in and out? 12 BY MS. EZELL: 13 Q. Do you agree that your brother has a 14 15 rather extraordinary capacity to make people believe that he is interested in them and • 16 their well-being? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 MR. CRITTON: Form. 19 A. I have no idea. 20 Q. You've known your brother, have 21 you -- people -- 22 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, you faded out 23 again. 24 MR. EDWARDS: Kathy, we are only 25 catching every second or third word. You may Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 78 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108626 EFTA01249402 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 7'7 • 2 M. Epstein want to pick up your receiver. 3 MS. EZELL: Thank you. I can do 4 that. Is this better? 5 MR. COHEN: Much better. 6 THE WITNESS: Much better. 7 BY MS. EZELL: 8 Q. Okay, sorry. 9 In all the years you've known your 10 brother, have you known him to be a master 11 manipulator? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. 13 MR. CRITTON: Form. • 14 15 A. No. mean by that. I mean, I don't know what you 16 Q. Have you known him to be very good at 17 manipulating people to get them to do what he 18 wants? 19 A. I have no idea 20 MR. COHEN: Objection. 21 MR. CRITTON: Form. 22 Q. You have no idea, was that your 23 answer? 24 A. Yes. I have no idea. I don't see 25 him with many people. • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esoulnasolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 79 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108627 EFTA01249403 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 78 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. Did he have that capacity when you 3 were growing up? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection. 5 MR. CRITTON: Form. 6 A. I don't know what -- I don't know how 7 to answer that question. 8 Q. When you were growing up, did you 9 notice that he developed the capacity to deal 10 with people in a way that made them think he 11 was very interested in their welfare? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. 13 MR. CRITTON: Form. 14 15 answer. MS. EZELL: I couldn't hear the • 16 A. The answer is, I don't know what you 17 are talking about. We grew up. We were kids 18 growing up in Brooklyn, you know. 19 Capacity? He had a good capacity for 20 mathematics, I can say that. 21 Q. Right. Right. So I'm asking you if 22 he had a good capacity for dealing with 23 people? 24 MR. COHEN: Objection. 25 MR. CRITTON: Form. 0 Toil Free Facsimile Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vnvw.esquiresolutions.cOm 3501.294-001 Page 80 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108628 EFTA01249404 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 79 • 2 A. M. Epstein I have no idea. I don't know what -- 3 how do you define a good capacity for dealing 4 with people? 5 People didn't walk around punching 6 him in the face, so I guess he dealt with them 7 okay. 8 Q. Okay. When you were boys together, 9 could he talk other boys into doing things? 10 Was he a leader? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. 12 A. I have no idea. 13 How far back in history am I supposed • 14 15 to be going with this? These are stupid questions. 16 MR. COHEN: I know they are, but we 17 are almost done. 18 Q. Are you saying you can't answer those 19 questions? 20 MR. COHEN: He has answered them. 21 Move on, counsel. 22 MS. EZELL: I don't have any others, 23 but I didn't hear him answer those questions. 24 MR. COHEN: Would you like the 25 record read back or would you like to read it Toll Free: • 0 Facsimile: Suite 1300 ESQUIRE S15 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 81 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108629 EFTA01249405 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 80 1 when you get it? M. Epstein • 3 MS. EZELL: I got what he said. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. COHEN: Anyone else? 6 MR. LANGINO: Yes. 7 This is Adam Langino, and I represent 8 BB. 9 THE WITNESS: Fifi? 10 MR. COHEN: BB. 11 THE WITNESS: I thought he said Fifi 12 and it was a dog. 13 MR. COHEN: NO, they are using 14 15 letters. MR. LANGINO: Everybody can hear me • 16 okay? 17 MR. EDWARDS: Yes. 18 MR. COHEN: Yes. 19 MR. EDWARDS: Got you. 20 MR. COHEN: You are coming through 21 fine. 22 EXAMINATION BY 23 MR. LANGINO: 24 Q. Was Jeffrey Epstein close to his 25 father? • Toll Free Feminine Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las 0les Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 rrenv.esquiresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 82 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108630 EFTA01249406 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 81 • 2 A. Yes. M. Epstein 3 Q. Did you notice any changes in Jeffrey 4 Epstein after he started a relationship with 5 Ms. Maxwell? 6 MR. CRITTON: Form. 7 A. I didn't spend a lot of time with 8 him too much time with him. I don't know 9 what you are talking about. 10 Q. Do you have an opinion if Jeffrey 11 Epstein changed at all once he started a 12 relationship with Ms. Maxwell? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection. • 14 15 A. I have no idea. Changed in what way? 16 Q. I could not hear that last response. 17 Excuse me? 18 A. Changed in what way? 19 I don't understand your question. 20 Q. Well, you know Jeffrey Epstein better 21 than I do. So my question is -- 22 A. Maybe. I don't know how well you 23 know him. I think there are people who know 24 him better than I do, so you could be one of 25 them. • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 83 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108631 EFTA01249407 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 82 1 M. Epstein 2 Q. Okay. The question is once he 3 started a relationship with Ms. Maxwell, did 4 you notice a change in him? 5 Was he more agitated? Was he 6 happier? Was he sadder? 7 Did you notice any type of emotional 8 change in your brother once he started a 9 relationship with Ms. Maxwell? 10 A. I can't connect anything to that, no. 11 Q. Do you have an opinion of Ms. 12 Maxwell? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection. 14 15 A. MR. CRITTON: Form. I had very little dealings with her. • 16 Q. So what is your answer? 17 A. I don't have an opinion of her. 18 Q. All right. And who is your brother's 19 best friend? 20 A. I already answered. 21 Q. I didn't hear it? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 Q. Okay. Can you give me the name of 24 one of his close friends? 25 A. I have no idea. Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.00rn 3501.294-001 Page 84 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108632 EFTA01249408 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 83 • 1 2 Q. M. Epstein Can you give me a name of one his 3 close friends from Coney Island where you guys 4 grew up? 5 A. There is a Warren. 6 Q. Warren what? 7 A. Eisenstein. Q. Do you know his address? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know his telephone number? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know if he still lives in New 13 York? • 14 15 A. Q. No, he lives out of state. Do you know which state? 16 A. Texas. 17 Q. Texas? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know which city in Texas? 20 A. Dallas or Houston, one of the big 21 ones. I'm not sure. 22 Q. Do you know his date of birth? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. Thank you for your time. I 25 have no further questions. Toll Free: • Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East 125 Olas Boulevard Foot Lauderdale, FL 33301 vanv.esquiresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 85 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108633 EFTA01249409 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 84 1 2 M. Epstein Oh, sorry, can you spell his last • 3 name, I didn't catch that, the friend's last 4 name? 5 A. It's Eisenstein. 6 Q. Can you spell it? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you and Mr. Eisenstein go to the 9 same primary school? 10 A. I think he went to the same schools, 11 yeah. He was my brother's age. I think he 12 was in the same school. 13 Q. And which school was that once again? 14 15 A. Q. P.S. 188. And that is in Brooklyn? • 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. LANGINO: All right. Thank you 18 very much. 19 MR. COHEN: Thank you. 20 Anyone else? 21 MR. HOROWITZ: Yes, this is Adam 22 Horowitz. Just a few questions. 23 Can you hear me okay? 24 MR. COHEN: Yes, we hear you great. 25 MR. HOROWITZ: Great. Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresclutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 86 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108634 EFTA01249410 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 85 • 2 EXAMINATION BY M. Epstein 3 MR. HOROWITZ: 4 Q. Mr. Epstein, any family members that 5 you would say your brother Jeffrey is now 6 close with? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Not a single family member that he is 9 close with? 10 A. No, we don't have a very big family. 11 Q. Other than yourself, who are the 12 closest blood relatives? 13 A. There are some cousins that are • 14 15 around. Q. Any cousins that live in Florida? 16 A. We do have a cousin in Florida, yes. 17 Q. Who is that? 18 A. I'm not telling you my cousin's 19 names. I'm not having you bother my cousins 20 over this nonsense. They know less of this 21 than I do. 22 Q. You are refusing to answer the 23 question? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And this is a first cousin of his? • 0 Toll F Faalr Suite 1300 ESQUIAIX, 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 87 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108635 EFTA01249411 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 86 1 M. Epstein • 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where in Florida does he live? 4 A. Next question. Q. I'd like to get some background on 6 this person that you are not going to give me 7 the name of. 8 Where does he or she live? 9 A. Next question. 10 Q. Is it a male or female? 11 A. Next question. 12 Q. Mr. Epstein, to your knowledge, does 13 your brother Jeff like getting massages? 14 15 A. I have no idea. I think everybody likes getting • 16 massages. 17 Q. How long have you known your brother 18 to enjoy getting massages? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. 20 A. I have no idea. I don't think about 21 what he does. 22 Q. Has he ever talked to you about 23 getting massages? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you ever gotten a massage with Toll F FeesIrrirli Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 51S East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 88 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108636 EFTA01249412 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 87 • 2 him? M. Epstein 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever seen him get a massage? 5 A. Not that I remember. 6 Q. Does he ever complain about physical 7 injuries for which he'd like to get a massage? 8 A. No, we don't talk about that. No. 9 Q. Has he ever complained to you about 10 back pain, shoulder pain? 11 A. No. 12 I don't complain about my back pain 13 either, so I don't put much weight on that. • 14 15 Q. a massage? Have you known of anyone to give him 16 A. No. There was a girl years ago, but 17 I'm talking 20 years ago, there was some woman 18 that he used in Florida, I don't remember her 19 name, but I know there was a woman who used to 20 give him massages. 21 Q. Where would she go to give him 22 massages? 23 A. I believe to his home. 24 Q. She would come to his home about 20 25 years ago? • 0 F FacsImi re4 Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vnvw.esquiresolutIOns.COM 3501.294-001 Page 89 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108637 EFTA01249413 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 88 1 M. Epstein • 2 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 3 Q. On the different occasions you've 4 been to his home in Palm Beach, have you ever 5 seen or known of him to receive a massage? 6 A. Not that I remember, no. 7 Q. What about on the different times 8 that you've been on a plane with your brother 9 Jeff, have you seen or known of him to get a 10 massage on those trips? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Has he ever treated you to a massage? 13 A. No, I buy my own, thank you. 14 15 Q. Other than your brother, do you have any family members who have been accused of • 16 sexual abuse? 17 A. No. 18 MR. HOROWITZ: All right. I've got 19 no other questions. 20 MR. CRITTON: Mr. Epstein, my name is 21 Bob Critton and I represent your brother Jeff. 22 I have just a few questions. 23 THE WITNESS: Go ahead. 24 EXAMINATION BY 25 MR. CRITTON: • Toll Free: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East let Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutIons.com 3501.294-001 Page 90 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108638 EFTA01249414 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 89 • 2 Q. M. Epstein If I understand your testimony, you 3 haven't been to your brother's house in Palm 4 Beach in approximately 10 years? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And the conversations you've had with 7 him over the past five, six, seven, eight 8 years have been basically hey, Jeffrey, how 9 are you doing? And/or he'll say hey, Mark, 10 how are you doing? 11 A. Well, the one's prior to five years 12 ago, 90 percent of the phone calls were 13 dealing with my mother. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. So conversations that you had with 21 your brother prior to your mother's death 22 would have mostly centered around her 23 24 A. Mostly, yes. 25 Q. And then subsequently, after your . 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 B ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Rat Lauderdale, FL 33301 wvnv.esuulresolutIons.com 3501294-001 Page 91 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108639 EFTA01249415 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 90 1 M. Epstein 2 mother passed away, the conversations that you 3 had with your brother, if I understood your 4 testimony, were basically, "How are you 5 doing?" "How are you doing?" 6 A. More or less. A funny story about a 7 friend or something, yes. 8 Q. With regard to the criminal charges 9 that were brought against your brother and 10 whatever has occurred with regard to those 11 criminal charges, would it be a correct 12 statement that you have never discussed any of 13 those issues with your brother? 14 15 A. Q. That's correct. With regard to the civil cases that • 16 have been filed against your brother, would it 17 be a correct statement that you have never 18 discussed any of the allegations of the civil 19 cases? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And with regard to the newspaper 22 articles that have been written or the lawyers 23 who have sought publicity to put information 24 in the newspaper about your brother's 25 confessions to sensationalize the story, would S Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vavw.esquIresolutions.00nl 3501.294-001 Page 92 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108630 EFTA01249416 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 91 • 1 2 M. Epstein it be a correct statement that you never 3 discussed those newspaper articles with him? 4 MR. EDWARDS: Objection to the form. 5 Q. Let me ask it in a simpler form. 6 With regard to any newspaper article 7 that you've seen about your brother relating 8 to allegations here and people in Palm County, 9 would it be a correct statement that you have 10 not discussed those with your brother? 11 A. Correct. 12 MR. CRITTON: That's all I have. 13 Thank you, sir. • 14 15 MR. COHEN: MR. EDWARDS: I have no questions. I only have two 16 follow-up questions. 17 EXAMINATION BY 18 MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. When you called your brother to tell 20 him that you were subpoenaed, did he tell you 21 that he would hire you an attorney? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How did it come to be that he hired 24 you an attorney and an attorney is here with 25 you today? • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Ili ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquiresolutlons.com 3501294-001 Page 93 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA2010864 1 EFTA01249417 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 92 1 M. Epstein 2 A. Another attorney called me and said 3 that they would provide me with an attorney. 4 Q. Who was that? 5 A. Jack. 6 Q. Jack Goldberger? 7 A. I believe so, yes. 8 Q. And was that within days of your 9 phone call to your brother? 10 A. Within weeks. I don't remember 11 exactly when I was served. It's not high on 12 my priority list. 13 Q. You don't want to have anything to do 14 15 with this case? A. I have nothing to do with this case. • 16 Q. The last question I have to ask you 17 is some of the girls have described your 18 brother's penis as being egg-shaped. 19 Is that something that you would know 20 from being his brother and growing up? 21 MR. CRITTON: Form. 22 MR. COHEN: Objection. 23 A. I read that, and that was a shock. I 24 never heard that and/or ever saw that. 25 Q. Have you ever seen his penis? 0 Toll Free Faalmlle Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East LaS Otas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esqulresolutlons.com 3501.294-001 Page 94 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108642 EFTA01249418 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 93 M. Epstein A. Yes. Q. Do you remember anything unusual or egg-shaped about it? 5 A. No. 6 MR. EDWARDS: All right. Anybody 7 else have anything? 8 Q. Oh, did your brother tell you how to 9 testify today? 10 A. Did he tell me he had to testify 11 today? 12 Q. Did he tell you how to testify -- 13 A. No. • 14 Q. -- To come here and say you don't 15 know anything about it? 16 A. No, nobody tells me what to do. 17 MR. COHEN: Okay. We are done. 18 19 (Continued on the next page to 20 include jurat and signature.) 21 22 23 24 25 • 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: State 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esowesoiutions.com 3501294-001 Page 95 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108(x33 EFTA01249419 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 94 1 M. Epstein 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:03 3 p.m., and we are off the record. 4 This is the end of tape one. 5 (Time noted: 1:03 p.m.) 6 7 8 MARK EPSTEIN 9 10 Subscribed and sworn to 11 Before me this day of 12 , 2009. 13 14 15 Notary Public • 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Toll Free. Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.eseuiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 96 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108644 EFTA01249420 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 95 • 1 INDEX WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE NO. M. Epstein Mr. Edwards 9, 91 4 Mr. Willits 73 Ms. Ezell 75 6 Mr. Langino 80 7 Mr. Horowitz 85 8 Mr. Critton 88 9 10 • 11 12 Plaintiff's EXHIBITS 1 DESCRIPTION Document PAGE NO. 16 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esquIresoludons.com 3501.294-001 Page 97 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00I08645 EFTA01249421 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 96 1 CERTIFICATION 2 3 I, Jacklyn Lisi, a Shorthand Reporter, and 4 Notary Public, within and for the State of New York, do 5 hereby certify: 6 7 That MARK EPSTEIN, the witness whose 8 examination is hereinbefore set forth, was first duly sworn 9 by me, and that transcript of said testimony is a true 10 record of the testimony given by said witness. 11 I further certify that I am not related to any 12 of the parties to this action by blood or marriage, and that 13 14 I am in no way interested in the outcome of this matter. • 15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 16 this day of 2009. 17 18 19 JACXLYN LI I 20 21 22 23 24 25 Toll Free: Facsimile: 0 EsQuiliE Suite 1300 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 vnvw.esquIresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 98 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108646 EFTA01249422 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 97 • 2 RE: DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET Esquire Deposition Solutions 3 File No. 13061 4 Case Caption: JANE DOE 5 vs. JEFFREY EPSTEIN 6 Deponent: Mark Epstein 7 Deposition Date: September 21, 2009 8 To the Reporter: 9 I have read the entire transcript of my Deposition taken 10 in the captioned matter or the same has been read to me. 11 I request that the following changes be entered upon the 12 record for the reasons indicated. I have signed my name to 13 the Errata Sheet and the appropriate Certificate and • 14 15 authorize you to attach both to the original transcript. 16 Page No. Line No. Change to: 17 18 Reason for change: 19 Page No. Line No. Change to: 20 21 Reason for change: 22 Page No. Line No. Change to: 23 24 Reason for change: 25 • 0 Toll Free Facsimile Suite 1300 ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 wWw.esquiresolutions.com 3501.294-001 Page 99 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00I08647 EFTA01249423 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • 98 1 Deposition of Mark Epstein 2 3 Page No. Line No. Change to: 4 5 Reason for change: 6 Page No. Line No. Change to: 7 8 Reason for change: 9 Page No. Line No. Change to: 10 11 Reason for change: 12 Page No. Line No. Change to: 13 14 15 Reason for change: Page No. Line No. Change to: • 16 17 Reason for change: 18 Page No. Line No. Change to: 19 20 Reason for change: 21 22 23 SIGNATURE: DATE: 24 Mark Epstein 25 0 Toll Free: Facsimile: Suite 1300 • ESQUIRE 5t5 East Las Olas Boulevard Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 www.esdulresolutiorts.com 3501.294-001 Page 100 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108648 EFTA01249424 • • • 3501.294-001 Page RH of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108649 EFTA01249425 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 102 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108650 EFTA01249426 Mark Epstein September 21, 2009 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 103 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108651 EFTA01249427 3501.294-001 Page 104 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00 108652 EFTA01249428 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 105 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108653 EFTA01249429 3501.294-001 Page 106 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108654 EFTA01249430 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 107 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108655 EFTA01249431 3501.294-001 Page 108 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108656 EFTA01249432 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 109 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00 108657 EFTA01249433 3501.293-001 Page 110 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108658 EFTA01249434 • • • 3501.294-00I Page III of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00 108659 EFTA01249435 Page I I2 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00 108660 EFTA01249436 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 113 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA_00108661 EFTA01249437 3501.299-001 Page 114 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108662 EFTA01249438 • • • 3501294.001 Page 115 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108663 EFTA01249439 3501.294-001 Page 116 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108664 EFTA01249440 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 117 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108665 EFTA01249441 3501.294-001 Page 118 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108666 EFTA01249442 • • • 3501.294-001 Page 119 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108667 EFTA01249443 • • • 3501.294-X11 Page 120 of 120 SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER PARAGRAPHS 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, and 17 EFTA 00108668 EFTA01249444