EFTA00058685

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 27, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 26 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00058685 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00058686 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 : My name is 2 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 3 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 York Field Office, and these are my 5 credentials. 6 : Okay. 7 : This interview with the 8 Federal Bureau of Prisons psychologist, Dr. 9 Did I get that right? 10 : Yes. 11 : Is being conducted as part of 12 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 13 of the Inspector General investigation. 14 Today's date is October 27, 2021. And the time 15 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conducted 16 at the OIG New York Field Office located on the 17 29th floor of One Battery Park Plaza, New York, 18 New York. Also present is: 19 : DOJ/OIG Senior Special 20 Agent . And these are my 21 credentials. Oops. Here you go. 22 : This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Special Agent 24 Could everyone please identify themselves for 25 the record, and spell your last name? To EFTA00058687 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent 2 3 : My name is DOJ/OIG Senior 4 Special Agent 5 6 -: please introduce 7 yourself. 8 : Yeah. So, my name is Dr. 9 . I am the chief psychologist at 10 MCC New York. 11 : Thank you. 12 : And your last name. Can 13 you just spell that -- 14 : Yes. 15 : -- for the record? 16 : I'm sorry about that. 17 18 : Thank you. 19 : This is an official DOJ/OIG 20 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey 21 Epstein. And you are being asked to 22 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 23 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 24 the DOJ/OIG? 25 : Yes. EFTA00058688 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Thank you. I'm going to 2 provide you with the OIG form 11I-226/2. It 3 states the following, "United States Department 4 of Justice, Office of the Inspector General. 5 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 6 to Provided Information on a Voluntary Basis. 7 You are being asked to provide information as 8 part of an investigation being conducted by the 9 Office of the Inspector General. This 10 investigation is being conducted pursuant to 11 the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. 12 This investigation pertains to job 13 performance failure, and security failure. 14 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 15 you do not have to answer any questions. No 16 disciplinary action will be taken against you 17 if you choose not to answer any questions. Any 18 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 19 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 20 disciplinary proceeding, or both." The waiver 21 states, "I understand the warnings and 22 assurance stated above, and I am willing to 23 make a statement and answer questions. 24 No promises or threats have been made to 25 me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has EFTA00058689 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 been used against me." Please review it. And 2 if you agree, can you please sign where it 3 says, "Employee Signature"? Also, print your 4 name right below that. 5 : Please. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Thank you. Thank you. I am 8 signing on the signature of the Office of 9 Inspector General, Special Agent. 10 : Okay. And I will -- 11 : Agent -. 12 : -- sign as the witness, 13 and place the date, and time, and place on 14 there. On the form. 15 : Thank you. Before starting 16 the interview, I would like to place you under 17 oath. 18 : Yes. 19 -: can you please 20 raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell 21 the truth and nothing but the truth during this 22 interview? 23 : Yes. 24 : Thank you. Please let me 25 know if you did not understand any questions, EFTA00058690 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 and I will try to repeat it, or try to rephrase 2 it for you. What is your current home address? 3 -: , New 4 York. 5 : Okay. And what is your date 6 of birth? 7 -: 8 : Actually, you showed us your 9 ID. Can you show that one more time? I just 10 want to -- 11 : Yes. 12 has provided me 13 with the U.S. Department of Justice law 14 enforcement officer ID, and it has her picture 15 on it, and her signature. Thank you. What is 16 your current cell phone number? 17 -: 18 : Thank you. Do you recall 19 being interviewed by the FBI and the OIG in 20 August 2019, regarding inmate Jeffrey Epstein? 21 : Yes, I do. 22 : What I have here is called 23 the FBI 302. It's their report of the 24 investigation. It's a summary of your 25 statements that you made in the interview with EFTA00058691 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 them. I'm going to go -. I'm going to read it 2 out to you. Please let me know if there is any 3 discrepancies, or you feel that anything is 4 inaccurate, and we will correct it. 5 : Okay. 6 : On the record. Anything else 7 before we start? 8 : Nope. 9 : Okay. "Dr. 10 date of birth: , was interviewed at 1 11 Saint Andrews Plaza, New York, New York, 10007. 12 U.S. Attorney's Office. Southern District of 13 New York. Present at the interview was the 14 Office of Inspector General Special Agent 15 ; Assistant U.S. Attorney 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:54), and FBI 17 Special Agent 18 After being advised of the identity of the 19 interviewing agents, and the nature of the 20 interview, provided the following 21 statement. is the chief 22 psychologist at the Metropolitan Correctional 23 Center (MCC). Her background includes a 24 bachelor's degree in criminology, a master's in 25 mental health counseling, a master's in EFTA00058692 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 clinical counseling, and a doctorate." What is 2 the doctorate in? 3 : Oh. The second master's is 4 in clinical psychology, not counseling 5 psychology. And the doctorate is in clinical 6 psychology. 7 : Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. was the 9 for 10 two years. And she completed a one-year post- 11 doctoral fellowship and internship working at 12 an in and out - in/outpatient mental health 13 treatment center. And she did that externship 14 at , working 15 with the battered woman's program." Is that 16 accurate? Go ahead. 17 : Okay. My post-doc was at a 18 private forensic practice, forensic psychology practice. 20 That was my post-doctoral 21 internship. My internship was at the 22 . Jackson Memorial Medical 23 Center. That's where I did inpatient and 24 outpatient rotations, with a minor in 25 forensics. And my externship, when I was in EFTA00058693 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE doctoral program, was at the 2 3 : Okay. 4 : Okay. 5 : Thank you. 6 : Sure. 7 worked as a staff psychologist at th 9 from 2003 to 2006." 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 "And as a forensic 12 psychologist from 2006 to 2008." 13 : Correct. 14 has been the 15 at MCC for the last 11 16 years." 17 : Well, now, more. Probably 18 close to 13. 19 : 13. 20 : More than 13, probably. 21 : So, that is still your role 22 at the MCC? 23 Uh-huh. Yes. And now that 24 it's closed. You know -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00058694 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 -- I'm no longer the chief 2 psychologist there. But up until a day ago, 3 yes. 4 : Okay. And so, what is the 5 new role with the -? 6 : Well, I am awaiting a 7 position, likely in central office. 8 : Okay. And what, do you know 9 what your role would be? What your title would 10 be? 11 : A mental health treatment 12 coordinator. But it's going through the 13 paperwork right now. So, it hasn't, you know, 14 I haven't received official notification 15 : Okay. 16 : -- as of yet. 17 : Then -. 18 : Will you be able to stay 19 in New York? 20 : Yes. 21 : Okay. Great. 22 : But I am doing my TDY work 23 right now, at 24 : Okay. 25 : So, I am just seeing a lot of EFTA00058695 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 patients over there now. 2 : Anything else on that? 3 : Hmm-mm. 4 oversees three 5 forensic psychologists." This is talking about 6 the time period when you were interviewed. 7 : Yes. 8 : I guess, before we do, 9 don't think it said. When did you first start 10 working with the BOP? When was your enter on 11 duty? 12 : In 2003. 13 : Okay. Great. Thank you. 14 . oversees three 15 forensic psychologists, one staff psychologist, 16 a drug abuse coordinator, and a drug treatment 17 specialist. Her duties include ensuring all 18 patients are seen, and the appropriate 19 documentation is completed. She consults on 20 individual cases, as needed. She ensures the 21 forensic reports are out on time. She reviews 22 all the reports she signs off on. At this 23 time, is seeing patients, is seeing 24 more patients than she normally does, due to 25 staffing. Her typical hours are 7:00 a.m. to EFTA00058696 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 3:30 p.m. Monday to Friday." 2 : Okay. 3 provided 4 information on the intake process as it relates 5 to psychological services at MCC. All inmates 6 complete the psychological services intake 7 questionnaire" - that's PSIQ - "themselves. It 8 asks for the inmates mental health history, as 9 well as any symptoms they are feeling at the 10 time. Based off the PSIQ, inmates are rated a 11 care code reading." 12 : Okay. First, we interview 13 them. What we do is, we review the PSIQs once 14 they are filled out. If significant items are 15 marked, we will interview the inmate. After we 16 complete the intake screening, we will classify 17 them with a care code. And that will determine 18 how frequently the inmate will be seen. 19 : Okay. I think it goes into 20 the codes itself. 21 : Oh, okay. All right. 22 : "Code one means there are no 23 concerns about the inmate's mental health 24 status. They have no needs and will not be 25 followed up with, unless requested to, by EFTA00058697 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 either the inmate themselves, or staff." 2 : Okay. 3 "Code two means there is some 4 history of mental health issues, but the inmate 5 has them under control. Psychological services 6 will follow up with these individuals monthly." 7 : Yes. 8 "Code three are more severe 9 cases, and they are seen every week by 10 psychological services, to ensure the inmate is 11 stable. If the inmate isn't stable in general 12 population, they will be moved to observation. 13 If they continue to deteriorate, they will go 14 to the hospital." 15 : We will try to send them to a 16 BOP medical center. Or we will try to 17 stabilize them in the facility. We have a 18 psychiatrist who is actually, he is a central 19 office psychiatrist, but he was actually 20 located at MCC New York. So, if they started 21 to decompensate the interview, and they were 22 that acute, we would have the psychiatrist see 23 them, and potentially medicate them, and try to 24 stabilize them at our facility. If we cannot 25 do so, then we will try to do an emergency, EFTA00058698 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 what is called a 770, and have them designated 2 to one of our medical centers for 3 stabilization. We don't have a contract with 4 the hospital here in New York. 5 : I don't know if you - what's 6 - what decompensating means? 7 : Oh, that means that their 8 symptoms become more acute, their mental health 9 functioning is deteriorating to the point where 10 they display evidence of either severe mood 11 symptoms, like acute mania, or psychosis, where 12 they are actively hallucinating, or have 13 delusions. Or maybe they just stopped taking 14 care of ADLs, as well. 15 : Okay. 16 : And that would cause harm to 17 them. Because of their illness. 18 : Thank you. 19 : Okay. 20 : Do you have any questions on 21 that? Okay. "Code four inmates are seen every 22 day by psychological services, and are under 23 constant psychological observation." 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 pointed out that EFTA00058699 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 a code one can be on suicide watch. Often 2 times, those cases involve manipulation 3 techniques used by inmates to get what they 4 want from staff. For example, if an inmate is 5 not getting along with the guard, or they want 6 a new cellmate, they will claim to be suicidal 7 to get out of their housing area. If an inmate 8 does this two or three times, they will be 9 bumped to a code two, so that a psychologist 10 will meet with them monthly. Suicide watch 11 means an inmate is eminently suicidal. If an 12 inmate is placed on suicide watch, they are 13 under constant watch by staff. They have a 14 special mattress, blanket, and smock to wear. 15 And their cell lights are on 24/7." 16 : Correct. 17 "Suicide observation is 18 lower classification." 19 : Psychological observation. 20 : Correction. "Psychological 21 observation is a lower classification. It is 22 not at all Bureau of Prisons facilities. 23 Everything is the same with suicide observation 24 inmates - psychological observation inmates, 25 except that they are allowed to have their EFTA00058700 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 clothing, and some materials, such as books. 2 Suicide watch can be detrimental if a person is 3 left on it for too long. So, observation is 4 used to see how an inmate is doing before 5 releasing them back to general population." 6 : Correct. So, psychological 7 observation, they are observed constantly, with 8 regard to what they have, they can obtain. 9 They can have those things that you listed. 10 But we have to determine, and sometimes it 11 might be one thing at a time. Like, we might 12 give them their underwear, and see how they do 13 with that. And then, we will, you know, give 14 them a book. But it's not like once you get 15 stopped down, you get all of those items. 16 : Okay. 17 : Okay. It's determined by a 18 psychologist, and it is notated on their 19 logbook, what they can and cannot have. 20 : Okay. "Any psychologist at 21 jail can take an inmate off suicide watch, but 22 they do consult with on occasion. 23 Many times, the executive staff at the jail 24 meet, and inmate psychological status and 25 services are discussed." EFTA00058701 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes. 2 : Can you explain to us a 3 little bit more about the meeting? What 4 exactly is discussed? 5 : Yes. So, we have, like, 6 Mondays, we have an opening meeting, and 7 Fridays, we have a close out meeting. And 8 Tuesdays, the days may have changed from then 9 to now. I think it used to be Thursdays, used 10 to be a SHU meeting. And so, certain members, 11 all the members of the executive staff are 12 there. And then, certain department heads 13 attend these meetings. And during the 14 meetings, they will ask me, you know, is there 15 anything for psychology. 16 And then, I will discuss the inmates that 17 are on suicide watch. And what my plans is for 18 those inmates. Or if we were discussing the 19 Special Housing Unit, I'll discuss inmates that 20 I feel need to be observed closely. Should 21 have cellmates. Or may suffer from mental 22 health problems that I feel we just need to 23 keep an eye on, or make sure they are in more 24 visible, highly visible cells. Any mental 25 health concern I have in the SHU, I would EFTA00058702 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 mention at the SHU meeting. 2 : Okay. Anything else? 3 : Yeah. I mean, do they 4 have input into psychology? Like, does the 5 executive staff, do they get to provide 6 recommendations, or ask, you know, can this 7 person be taken off, or this person taken off, 8 or this person taken on, or is it -? 9 : Well, we make the decisions 10 as far as, we're the only ones that make the 11 decisions whether someone goes on watch, or off 12 watch. 13 : Right. 14 : They may, you know, not agree 15 or whatever, but that's our decision because 16 that is our profession. 17 : Right. 18 : But with regard to the 19 logistics in the prison, and how, where the 20 inmates are housed, and things like that. We 21 will make suggestions to executive staff. 22 : Okay. 23 : A lot of times - and most of 24 the time - they do listen to psychology. There 25 may be times they disagree for maybe EFTA00058703 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 correctional reasons that, you know, they may 2 have their own ways of viewing where they 3 housed someone. Maybe there will be an inmate 4 up there, or too many that they are separated 5 from, or maybe they are a gang member. I mean, 6 there may be other reasons why they can't 7 follow our recommendations. 8 And so, there might be exceptions to that 9 rule. So, now, pretty much what we do is, if, 10 like, let's say we have to house somebody alone 11 in SHU. We have to - we put whether we 12 recommend or not recommend. Now, we do that. 13 And I never recommend an inmate be single 14 celled. Ever. So, if they decide, that's on 15 them. And usually, it's because an inmate may 16 be too violent, or may be sept out from all 17 other inmates in the facility because they are 18 so, in all these gangs, and they are 19 cooperating. 20 And there is just too many bloods, let's 21 say, and there are blood, and they may have to 22 be by themselves, or they may have assaulted 23 other inmates, or officers, and they just can't 24 be celled with somebody. For whatever reason. 25 Or the U.S. Attorney's Office has said this EFTA00058704 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 person needs to be by themselves. We're afraid 2 for their life, at that facility. So, I'm 3 never going to recommend somebody be by 4 themselves because it's never a good idea. But 5 there might be extenuating circumstances where 6 someone needs to be housed alone, and in that 7 case, you know, we would recommend an increase 8 rounds, or, you know, keeping an eye on that 9 inmate. 10 : Now, as far as I 11 understand, what you are talking about is when 12 they come off of psychological observation or 13 suicide watch, but when they actually go in and 14 come off of both suicide watch and 15 psychological observation, do they get to 16 provide an input into that, or is that solely a 17 psychology issue? 18 : Whether they come off? 19 : Go in or come off. 20 : No. Just a psychology. 21 : Okay. So, they don't 22 have any input into that? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. 25 : I mean, they may make some EFTA00058705 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 statements, but if we don't agree, 2 : Yeah, that's your 3 : -- those decisions are up to 4 us. 5 : Okay. 6 : Yes. 7 : Thank you. 8 : Just a question, as a follow 9 up. You said that sometimes you might make 10 recommendations on housing an inmate by 11 themselves, based on a threat or whatever it 12 is. So, my understanding, based on that 13 statement, is that means every inmate is housed 14 with a cellmate, unless specifically 15 recommended by psychology, that they be housed 16 by themselves? 17 : Never by psychology. 18 : Yeah. 19 : Psychology 20 : That's (Indiscernible 21 *00:17:38). 22 : -- is always going to 23 recommend. 24 : Recommend. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058706 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 : A cellmate. But there might 2 be custodial issues. 3 : Okay. 4 : Which preclude them from 5 being housed with another inmate. 6 : So, any inmates that has a 7 history of possibly having suicide watch, or 8 any, or psychological observation, psychology 9 recommends that they be - recommends that they 10 be housed with a cellmate. 11 : Yes. 12 : Now, psychology -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- always they be housed 15 with a cellmate. 16 : Right. 17 : It's the custody may say 18 that they want them with a single cell. 19 : Got it. 20 : Correct? 21 : Correct. 22 : Thank you. "Meetings are 23 held on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays. 24 Generally present at those meetings are Dr. 25 , the warden, two associate wardens, the EFTA00058707 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 captain, supervisory attorney, duty officer, 2 and the executive assistant. Department head 3 meetings are held on Wednesdays. 4 (Phonetic Sp. *00:18:27)?" 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 "Completed the PSIQ for 7 Jeffrey Epstein on July 8, 2019. Epstein did 8 not mark anything on his PSIQ. And had it not 9 been Epstein, he would have been sent to 10 general population, and rated a care code one. 11 consulted with Dr. 12 about Epstein's risk factors, aside from his 13 psychological health, including high-profile 14 case and sex offense charges." Who is Dr. 15 16 : He was the suicide prevention 17 coordinator in central office. Now, he has 18 been moved up to a higher position, but he is 19 in central office, and he called me right away, 20 when Epstein came, because of his risk factors. 21 We call those static risk factors. Those are 22 risk factors for suicidality that can't be 23 changed. So, in other words, if you come in 24 and you are a sex offender, and you are high- 25 profile, like Jeffrey Epstein was, that is EFTA00058708 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 going to take place throughout his 2 incarceration. 3 It is not like he would just come in 4 depressed; we could give him medication; he 5 could get better. Those factors would always 6 be there. So, you know, he was concerned. 7 Also, when he came to the facility, that we 8 should keep, you know, a close eye on him. 9 And, you know, he was reviewing our notes and 10 everything, from afar. So, he did call us when 11 he was placed on watch and everything, and he 12 oversaw. 13 : Okay. 14 : So, he has access to your 15 notes? Does that go into some kind of a 16 database? 17 : Yes. The psychology data 18 system. 19 : Okay. 20 : I don't know if he reviewed 21 the notes, but he called -. I'm trying to 22 remember. I remember him calling me and just 23 being in touch with me. You know, is 24 everything okay? And, you know, making sure we 25 assessed certain things. EFTA00058709 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 : Okay. So, all throughout 2 Epstein's stay, he was kind of reviewing your 3 notes, and -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : -- his status. 6 : Or calling me and checking 7 in. 8 : And who would have access 9 to that database, in those notes? 10 : All the psychologists in the 11 department. Central office personnel would 12 have access to it. Other psychologists at 13 other institutions can access the notes 14 because, let's say he was transferred to 15 another facility, and they wanted to see his 16 notes from the BOP. They would have access. 17 : Okay. And when you say 18 central office, you're talking about just 19 psychology central office, or do you mean 20 everyone that is -? 21 : Yeah. 22 : So, only -- 23 : Psychology. 24 : -- only psychology -- 25 : As far as -- EFTA00058710 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- personnel. 2 -- I know. Yes. 3 : Okay. So, no one outside 4 of psychology? 5 : Not that I know of. 6 : Okay. 7 : Because I don't work up 8 there. But I wouldn't think so. 9 : Great. 10 : Okay. 11 : You might have stated 12 already. I might have missed it. 13 : Okay. 14 : Did Dr. make any 15 recommendations to you? Regarding Mr. Epstein. 16 : No. Just to keep a close eye 17 on, when I put him on watch. He just called 18 and just, he asked me various questions on how 19 he was doing, and everything like that. So, he 20 just wanted to make us aware that, you know, he 21 was very high-profile. I mean, obviously, we 22 knew that. But, you know, also to keep an eye 23 on him, and to keep us alert to his risk 24 factors. 25 : Okay. "When Epstein returned EFTA00058711 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 from court that day, ordered he be 2 placed on watch status, to allow psychology to 3 make a complete - to complete a thorough 4 suicide risk assessment." Is that correct? 5 : Right. 6 : Okay. 7 : And that was on 8 : And that was precautionary. 9 : -- okay. 10 : Because of his risk factors. 11 I wanted him assessed. So, I remember he was 12 placed on watch, and he was waiting for me to 13 come in and do his interview. And, you know, I 14 came into the watch area, and he was, like, are 15 you ? And he's, like, get me out of 16 here. You know? Because he didn't endorse 17 anything. He didn't say he was suicidal. He 18 had just come from court, and he was just 19 waiting to come off of watch because, you know, 20 watch is very depriving, like we said, you 21 can't have anything there. 22 Like, not even clothes. It's just You 23 know, so, for him to be put in that situation. 24 He was really unhappy about it. And then, you 25 know, I explained, it was for his safety, and EFTA00058712 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 precautionary, and I just wanted to make sure 2 he was, he would be celled appropriately, and 3 that he was okay. So, it wasn't that he had 4 endorsed anything, or said he was suicidal. It 5 was strictly precautionary. 6 : And that was -- 7 : When he first came in. 8 : -- yeah. That was July 9 8th, 2019? 10 : Yes. 11 : Just -- 12 : Yes. 13 -- for the record. Okay. 14 completed the 15 suicide risk assessment the next day. Epstein 16 was angry he was placed on observation, but he 17 continued to report no history of -", suicide- 18 aly? 19 : Suicidality. Yeah. Yeah. 20 : Suicidality. "No substance 21 abuse. No major medical concerns. And no 22 overt risk factors. Epstein was polite, but 23 annoyed with ." 24 : True. 25 : "Epstein was kept in EFTA00058713 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 observation, pending a suitable housing 2 placement, given his risk factors of being an 3 alleged sex offender. High-profile, and having 4 one living brother relative. She quoted 5 Epstein as saying, `Being alive is fun.' 6 believed it was a genuine statement." 7 Is that accurate? 8 : A what? 9 : A genuine -- 10 : Genuine. 11 -- genuine statement. 12 : Yeah. 13 : Okay. provided 14 the interviewing agents with a copy of the 15 suicide risk assessment, which was placed into 16 this case as reference three. On July 10th, 17 2019, met with Epstein in 18 observation. Epstein was still in observation, 19 due to housing concerns. He continued to be 20 psychologically stable at that time. Epstein 21 was aware, even if he got bail, he would be at 22 MCC for several more weeks." That statement, 23 "Epstein was aware even if he got bail." Was 24 your understanding that he was going to get 25 bail? EFTA00058714 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 : If I recall, I remember he 2 was hopeful. Now, I don't have my notes in 3 front of me, so I don't want to swear to what 4 was in each note -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- because when I don't have 7 them in front of me, but from my recollection, 8 yes, he was hopeful that, you know, he would be 9 able to get out of jail. 10 : Okay. So, based on 11 : At that time. 12 : -- your conversations with 13 him, he was expecting - hopeful - to get bail - 14 15 : Yes. 16 -- from being -. Okay. 17 "Epstein made several demands and voiced many 18 complaints to , which she passed onto 19 executive staff." What kind of demands? 20 : I remember a lot of, like, 21 even his laxative, like, he wanted Colace 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:50), and he didn't like 23 the laxative he was getting. And, you know, he 24 just made a lot of demands. I would have to 25 refer to my notes, but it was just -- EFTA00058715 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : -- you know, individual, his 3 individual needs. Things that he wanted. 4 : What about -- 5 : You know? 6 complaints? It mentions 7 that he voiced many complaints, also. 8 : Maybe that he was on watch. 9 I mean, I remember he didn't want to be on 10 there to begin with. Things about the jail, in 11 and of itself, I guess he wanted, I remember 12 him wanting to go to the Cadre unit (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:25:23), because at that time, we had 14 Paul Manafort (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:25) there. 15 : Okay. 16 : And he wanted to be - he knew 17 those people were in the prison - so, he wanted 18 to go be placed on a Cadre unit, which are 19 inmates that have already been sentenced, and 20 are serving small amounts of time. 21 : Okay. 22 : At which we couldn't put him 23 in, because he was pre-trial. But he wanted to 24 be with, like, other inmates he knew that were 25 there, that were more high-profile. EFTA00058716 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : I remember him complaining 3 about that. 4 : Anything else on that? 5 : We have all of your notes 6 and the notes, you know, from psychology. 7 Would you want those for while we are 8 discussing, or do you think they are not 9 needed? 10 : Well, if there is anything 11 think -- 12 : Okay. Just let us -- 13 : -- you know, I have a pretty 14 good -- 15 : -- know if -- 16 : -- memory. 17 : -- sure. 18 : But I mean, if you are going 19 to ask me on this exact date, did he say this 20 exact -- 21 : Absolutely. 22 : -- then I would need my 23 notes. 24 : No. I just -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058717 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I just -- 2 : Yeah. 3 : -- wanted to know if you 4 would actually prefer them in front of you. 5 So, while we are talking, you can reference 6 them. Because if you can, we could easily get 7 them for you. 8 : Okay. I will see how the 9 questions -- 10 : Sure. 11 : -- proceed. And if I am 12 uncomfortable with one, I will let you know. 13 Yeah. 14 : Absolutely. 15 : Okay. 16 "Epstein's cellmate for the 17 Special Housing Unit was decided by the warden 18 and the associate warden. was not 19 included on that decision. Her thought was 20 decided upon cellmate, Tartaglione, had a -." 21 Sorry. I don't know if that wording is wrong. 22 "Her thought was decided upon cellmate, 23 Tartaglione, had a lot to lose -." 24 : Just before we go on. 25 So, you said that it was decided by the warden EFTA00058718 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 and the associate warden. Do you know what the 2 names are of those individuals? Like, 3 would be the warden. 4 was the warden. 5 : Do you know who the 6 associate warden was? 7 : I don't know who, but I know 8 he meets with the associate wardens. I don't 9 know which one. I know was there 10 during that period of time. And I'm trying to 11 remember the other one. 12 : Was it 13 : Yes. Yes. No. took -. 14 Yeah. 15 : I don't know if was 16 17 -' 18 : -- there that early. 19 -: came after. 20 : Yeah. I think it was a 21 different AW. 22 : Who was before 23 That's crazy. 24 : But regardless, they were 25 the ones -- EFTA00058719 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. They -- 2 okay. 3 : -- they make the housing 4 decisions. 5 : Okay. 6 : You know, and who they felt 7 he should be placed with. 8 : And then, let me just 9 read that sentence for you -- 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- so that -. It says, 12 "Her thought was the decided upon cellmate, 13 Tartaglione, had a lot to lose given his 14 history and charges, which made him a low-risk 15 to Epstein." 16 : Right. I guess that was more 17 of an opinion. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : You know, because my thought 20 was the reason they placed him with that inmate 21 is, you know, he is facing the death penalty or 22 life. Tartaglione. For these alleged murders. 23 And when you are pre-trial, and you are in that 24 situation, you are on your best behavior, and 25 not looking to hurt somebody, and get yourself EFTA00058720 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 into more trouble. 2 : Okay. So, he was 3 : So, a lot of times -- 4 : -- he was facing -- 5 yeah. 6 : -- life in prison? 7 : Yeah. 8 : Okay. 9 : I think he was facing the 10 death penalty. 11 : Was he? Okay. And c.c, 12 you know what he was -- 13 : I don't know what his 14 situation is now. I know his attorney, you 15 know, fight, has been fighting for him for a 16 long time. 17 : Okay. 18 : You know, to I think not get 19 the death penalty. 20 : And do you know if, 21 anything else about him? Was he law 22 enforcement -- 23 : Yes. 24 : -- or anything? Okay. 25 : He was law enforcement, and EFTA00058721 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 it was some drug related thing, and there was 2 four bodies, I think, and I don't know that 3 much about his case. I have met with him on a 4 couple of occasions. 5 : Okay. 6 : But, you know, he doesn't 7 come off as being, you know, he's not, like, a 8 gang member, or violent, or trying to prove 9 anything, per se. 10 : So, his goal was to stay 11 clean and to do what was right, so he could 12 potentially beat his case? 13 : That's what most people do, 14 pre-trial. 15 : Right. 16 : You know, it's not until they 17 go to pens that they become that way, unless, 18 you know, you are very young and antisocial, 19 you will act out. 20 : Right. 21 : But -. 22 : So, just to clarify, he was 23 pre-trial, or was he already facing a life in 24 prison? 25 : Yeah, I think he was -- EFTA00058722 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 : You said life in prison, and 2 death penalty? 3 : -- he was still pre-trial. 4 They both were pre-trial. 5 : Okay. So, he was trying to 6 avoid the death penalty 7 : Yes. 8 : -- and trying to get life in 9 prison? 10 : Right. Or maybe just get off 11 all together. 12 : Got it. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. 15 : In his mind, he felt he could 16 get off all together, but that is unrelated, 17 but 18 : Okay. Thank you. "On July 19 11th, 2019, Epstein was taken off of 20 observation, and housed in the SHU. 21 met with Epstein in the attorney conference 22 rooms that day, because Epstein was there all 23 day. Both Epstein and his attorney were 24 mocking for thinking Epstein was 25 suicidal. Epstein continued to make demands, EFTA00058723 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 such as wanting to wear a brown uniform to his 2 attorney meetings. continued to 3 pass those concerns onto the SHU Lieutenant 4 5 : I think so. 6 : Okay. 7 : Yeah. 8 "On July 16th, 2019, after 9 Epstein's bail hearing, he was called for," or, 10 "he called for to come to attorney 11 conference. Epstein didn't report any 12 psychological concerns, but chastised her 13 because his needs weren't being met. Dr. 14 felt Epstein thought of her as his 15 personal assistant. Epstein requested a kosher 16 diet, which she again passed on." 17 : Wait. Before we go on. 18 It says he chastised you because his needs 19 weren't being met. 20 : Okay. Well, this is, he, you 21 know, while he was on watch, and when I would 22 talk to him, he would tell me all these 23 different things that he wanted. Like I said, 24 the special laxative. A certain diet. Certain 25 housing arrangements. You know, he had a lot EFTA00058724 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 of requests. And I guess, in the beginning, 2 you know, I tried to help him as best as I 3 could, and when I say personal assistant, I 4 don't really like that word. But what I was 5 really trying to say is that the officers would 6 say he would always say, where is 7 where is ? You know, that, so that I 8 could, maybe I had pull and could get certain 9 needs for him met, within the prison setting. 10 Mm-hmm. 11 : So, let me put it that way. 12 It sounds a little better than that. And then, 13 you know what? I wanted to follow up with him, 14 and do a session, but he was in attorney 15 conference, like, eight hours a day, during my 16 entire shift. So, I would have to go up there 17 just to check on him, and make sure he was 18 doing okay. So, when I would ask if he was 19 suicidal, he would be, like, I was never 20 suicidal, and, you know, he would laugh, and 21 the attorney would laugh at me. You know, so, 22 it was just kind of - that's what I meant. And 23 then, when he would chastise, he would become 24 angry. 25 : Right. EFTA00058725 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 : You know, because he was very 2 demanding and entitled. So, if he got angry 3 when his needs weren't met, because he was used 4 to that kind of lifestyle, I assume. You know, 5 in the outside where, you know, at the snap of 6 his finger, he could have certain needs met. 7 And in the prison, it didn't work that way. 8 : And just so we are clear 9 10 : Right. 11 : -- when you say "needs," 12 they are not actual needs that a person would 13 need. It's his wants, I guess, would be -- 14 : Yes. 15 : -- better. 16 : Yes. 17 : Because did he have -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- did he have 20 : Okay. 21 : -- everything that he 22 needed? 23 : He had everything that basic 24 inmates had. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058726 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 : I guess one where 2 psychologists refer to, you know, people engage 3 in certain behaviors to get their needs met. 4 So, their wants and needs. So, yeah. 5 : Okay. 6 : Wants. 7 : But do you believe that 8 he had everything he needs? Like , he needed. 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. 11 : For the most part. I mean, I 12 know he wanted a CPAP machine while he was on 13 watch. And I was, like, no. Because there was 14 cords, and things like that. So, you cannot 15 have your CPAP machine. And he wanted to get 16 off of watch at the end, because he wasn't 17 sleeping well, and he said he had sleep apnea, 18 and he wanted his machine. So, I wasn't going 19 to take him off until I felt he was ready, or 20 give him that, until he was off of watch. 21 : Okay. 22 "On July 18th, a SHU review 23 was attempted on Epstein, but he was not seen 24 because he was in attorney conference. On July 25 23rd, 2019, received a phone call EFTA00058727 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 regarding Epstein, because he was found in his 2 cell with a loose noose around his neck, and 3 had been placed on suicide watch. She ordered 4 a suicide risk assessment be completed on him. 5 Dr. ." Is that -? Did I -? "Completed 6 the suicide risk assessment later that morning. 7 During the assessment, Epstein told Dr. 8 he did not remember what happened. He 9 denied suicidality. Had future plans. And he 10 wanted to learn. He wanted to fight his case. 11 And he was acting like a big kid. Dr. 12 learned that Epstein had told staff that his 13 cellmate, Tartaglione, had tried to kill him. 14 Dr. kept Epstein on suicide watch." What 15 was your understanding, and did you have a 16 conversation with Epstein, after that point, 17 about his interaction with Tartaglione? What 18 exactly transpired -- 19 : Yes. 20 : -- on that incident? 21 : And that was the issue. 22 mean, he never retracted that statement. 23 mean, he said that he thought he was a 24 pedophile, and that he had taken this piece 25 I don't know if it was a piece, or a piece of EFTA00058728 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 cloth, or whatever. And went like this around 2 his neck. And -. 3 : Now, he told you this? 4 : Yes. He told my staff that, 5 as well. 6 : So, he told both you and 7 your staff? 8 : Yes. I had seen him 9 subsequently. Again, I don't have my notes in 10 front of me -- 11 : Sure. 12 : -- but I remember him telling 13 me that. So, at that point, when we were doing 14 the suicide risk assessment, and Dr. was, 15 we had to conceptualize what actually happened. 16 You know, whether this is something he 17 inflicted on himself, and you know, the 18 reasonings why he would do something like that. 19 Or whether it was there was indeed an assault 20 of some form. And so, then, you know, it was 21 referred to SIS, too. So, he wasn't ever 22 really forthright on what occurred, while he 23 was on watch that time. 24 : Did you ever believe - based 25 on your conversations with Mr. Epstein -. EFTA00058729 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 Sorry. I'll just end that. Based on your 2 conversations with Mr. Epstein, did you believe 3 what he stated, in terms of Tartaglione trying 4 to kill him? 5 : Honestly, I did not know what 6 to believe at that point. So, my mind was 7 opened that there were potentially three 8 things, different things going on, and a 33 9 percent chance of it being any one of those 10 things. Because you don't know what happens 11 behind closed doors, in the SHU, or whether 12 they did have a disagreement. 13 : You know what? It actually 14 goes into your hypothesis -- 15 : Yes. Okay. 16 : -- let me read that -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- and maybe you can state 19 : Okay. 20 : -- if that's right. "Dr. 21 had three hypotheses, in no particular 22 order, regarding this incident, of what this 23 incident meant. One) it was gamey by either 24 Epstein, Tartaglione, or both. Meaning, there 25 was something they wanted, and they weren't EFTA00058730 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 getting. So, this is how they were going to 2 play the system to their advantage. Two) it 3 was rehearsal by Epstein, who really was 4 suicidal. Three) it was an assault committed 5 by Tartaglione." Was that the three? That is 6 your three hypotheses? 7 : Yes. 8 : Was there any one of those 9 that you were leaning towards? 10 : At that point, I didn't know 11 because -- 12 : Okay. 13 -- you know, he was just 14 placed on watch. The SIS investigation hadn't 15 taken place. I had -. There was enough 16 evidence it could have been any one of those, 17 because the phone call I received in the 18 morning, when he was placed on watch, the 19 lieutenant at that time had told me it was 20 She was, like, this doesn't - because they have 21 been around a while - this isn't a real thing. 22 It was like a little string, and, you know, he 23 was, he seemed fine. 24 And then, when I turned around, he would 25 be rocking back and forth. So, she, you know, EFTA00058731 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 at that initial time, it almost looked a little 2 gamey. Like, that maybe he just went like this 3 with a piece of string, at that point. He had 4 lost his bail. I'm sorry. 5 : No problem. 6 : Let me just turn off my 7 phone. At that point, he had lost his bail 8 hearing. The judge denied him -. I'm sorry. 9 : Bail. 10 : The judge denied him bail. 11 : So, right before the 12 23rd, the judge denied him bail, and then this 13 happened? 14 : Right. 15 : Okay. So -- 16 : So, there is, that is the 17 gamey piece. I mean, if you want my 18 conceptualization, that, you know, that maybe 19 he did, you know, this sends a message, I can't 20 take jail, put me on house arrest. I'm either 21 going to hurt myself or someone else is going 22 to hurt me. Get me out of here. Because he 23 came in very entitled. Like I said, he had a 24 lot of money. He was meeting with his 25 attorneys every day. EFTA00058732 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 He had a lot of money at that point. It's 2 not like he had lost trial. And Tartaglione 3 had a lot to gain, to save a life, because he 4 is facing life. You know, when you get a 5 letter that you save someone's life, that's 6 helpful in your case. I'm not saying that's 7 it, but I mean, I'm just trying to think of 8 hypotheses. So, that was where the gamey stuff 9 came in. That was the gamey piece. 10 The report from the lieutenant, the gains 11 that both of them could have by this behavior. 12 Could that be why that happened? Number two. 13 He is genuinely upset, and he was, it was a 14 rehearsal behavior, and perhaps he really 15 wanted to hurt himself. So, we need to be 16 cautious. So, it could be the gamey thing. It 17 could be the cautious thing. Or maybe Epstein 18 and Tartaglione had it out that night, and he 19 said something pompous or whatever, and the 20 other one got upset, and he did, you know, put 21 the rope around his neck, and that really 22 frightened Epstein, and that is why he went 23 into, like, this fetal position. 24 Maybe he was scared. You know, could it 25 have been any of those? And subsequently, I EFTA00058733 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 think one of his attorneys was convinced that 2 Tartagliione had assaulted him. Not because, I 3 guess he told his attorney the same attorney. 4 So, it could have been any -. I say 33 percent 5 chance it could have been any of those things. 6 : Now, I understand that 7 that's what you thought -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- on the 23rd. Did that 10 33 percent chance change, after time, that you 11 believed it was one over the other? 12 : I never knew. 13 : No? 14 : I mean, I never -- 15 : So, you still -- 16 : -- knew. 17 : -- thought that they were 18 all equally plausible? 19 : Well, I guess towards the end 20 of watch, I thought the assault wasn't as 21 plausible. Because that he really wanted to 22 hurt Epstein, because later on, Epstein was 23 saying he would go back and cell with him. So, 24 why would you want to go back and cell with 25 somebody that was trying to hurt you? So, but EFTA00058734 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 again, I didn't do the SIS investigation. So, 2 and I never was privy to it. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : So, I don't know what the 5 findings were. But after that, that made that 6 one less plausible. So, made the other two 7 more plausible, at that point in time, which 8 was either it was a rehearsal behavior, or two) 9 it was a game - it was gamey - to get him out 10 of jail because he was just denied -- 11 : Who did he 12 bail. 13 who did he make that 14 request to? That he wanted to go back within 15 the cell with Tartaglione? Was that to you 16 directly, or -? 17 : I think he might have 18 mentioned something like that, because when I 19 was trying to figure out where to house him 20 later, I remember him mentioning that to me. I 21 don't know if I put it in a note or not. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Okay. 24 : But yeah. So, I began to 25 think that that was - it was less -. Why would EFTA00058735 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 you want to go back in a -? But maybe he's not 2 thinking clearly. I don't know. But that made 3 me feel less about that. When he said that. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Anything else on that? 6 : Now, being that he just 7 lost bail, had you heard that Tartaglione was 8 actually the one that notified the SHU staff 9 that there was an issue with Epstein, and that 10 is what made them respond to the cell? Had you 11 heard that? 12 : I mean, I had heard that he 13 called out. 14 : That's what I mean. 15 : Yeah. I had -- 16 : So -- 17 -- I had heard that. 18 : -- with those -- 19 : But I don't -. 20 : -- factors in play, does 21 that make you believe that, you know, aside 22 from the fact that he wanted to go back with 23 Tartaglione, you know, at the end of his watch, 24 or observation, does that also make you think 25 maybe it was less likely that he attempted to EFTA00058736 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 harm him, or does that play into your decision? 2 : Still, those two, I just will 3 never know. At that -- 4 : Okay. 5 -- for that particular 6 circumstance. Was it, you know, a pact between 7 them, or maybe it wasn't even Tartaglione 8 trying to get any gain. Maybe it was Epstein 9 trying to call attention to himself, so that he 10 could be - so that he could go back to court, 11 and get that bail, and that they would feel 12 like he wasn't safe there. 13 : Right. I guess -- 14 : And let him go home. 15 : -- my question maybe -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- wasn't that clear. 18 : Yeah. 19 : So, I think you used the 20 example that Epstein, after he was coming off 21 of observation, and you were looking to see 22 where he was going to be housed, or who he was 23 going to be housed with, he mentioned that he 24 was going to go, you know, he would be willing 25 to go back with Tartaglione, and that was the EFTA00058737 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 reason why you thought, maybe, that one of the 2 three was probably less likely. 3 : Yes. 4 : What I'm saying is, do 5 the factors that Tartaglione called out to the 6 staff to say something is going on with 7 Epstein, come check him out, does that also 8 play into that, or no, you just placed that 9 simply in those other two, that -? 10 : Simply in those other two. 11 And that -- 12 : Okay. 13 : -- that, I don't know what to 14 make of that. 15 : Okay. Sounds good. 16 : Whether it was going to be 17 something to help, whether he really was 18 worried about Epstein. 19 : Okay. I'll never know, 20 and -. 21 : Sounds good. 22 : This may not be something 23 that you might know. It's more towards health 24 services, but maybe you had a conversation with 25 health services. Do you know if they ever EFTA00058738 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 medically examined him for any broken bones, 2 anything, kind of damages? Just, I know he had 3 here, the ligature mark on his neck, right 4 after the July 23rd incident. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Was there any -? Did they 7 examine him? Like, do you have an xray, MRI, 8 anything for broken bones in his neck? 9 : That -- 10 : Any kind of injuries? 11 : I don't know. 12 : Okay. 13 : That, I don't know. You 14 would have to look in BEMR. Yeah. For that. 15 : In where? 16 : BEMR. B-E-M-R. BEMR. 17 : What's that? 18 : That's the medical record. 19 : Okay. 20 : Well, we have that. 21 : Okay. 22 : But as far as when you 23 are meeting him, though, at that time, did you 24 notice any injuries on him? 25 : Just the mark. EFTA00058739 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Just the mark. 2 : On the back of his neck. 3 Like -. 4 : Do you remember if he was 5 complaining about any potential broken bones, 6 or collar type issues, or anything? 7 : No. 8 : No? 9 : No. 10 : Okay. 11 "On July 24th, 2019, Dr. 12 met with Epstein. Epstein reported he 13 was fearful to return to his cell with 14 Tartaglione because Tartaglione had called him 15 a pedophile. Epstein reported Tartaglione had 16 put - had been playing with the bedsheet before 17 Epstein fell asleep. And then, next thing 18 Epstein remembered, he was waking up snoring. 19 Epstein denied being suicidal, and reported 20 being unhappy with this legal situation. He 21 had been eating, drinking, and sleeping. Dr. 22 took Epstein off suicide watch, and 23 placed on psychological observation." 24 : Now, on that, when the 25 inmate goes from suicide watch to psychological EFTA00058740 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 observation, is the executive staff conferred 2 with? 3 : Yes. 4 : They are? And do they 5 provide an opinion on that, or was it just to 6 let them know? 7 : No. We just let them know. 8 : Just to let them know. 9 Okay. So, they don't have to say, oh, yes, we 10 agree, or please keep him on suicide watch, or 11 anything like that? 12 : If they feel that way, they 13 can express it, and we will keep it in mind, 14 though, and again, we make those decisions. 15 : Okay. 16 : Okay. 17 : Now, being that this is July 18 24th, the next day, and he had possibly tried 19 to hang himself -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : -- on July 23rd, and they 22 took him off - Dr. takes him off suicide 23 watch and places him on psychological 24 observation. Is that normal practice? 25 : Yeah, because psychological EFTA00058741 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 observation is, he's in the exact same cell, 2 he's being constantly observed. She spent a 3 long time with him. I think she interviewed 4 him, like, over an hour, an hour and a half. 5 And she just felt that there was no eminent 6 risk of at that time. Like, while he was in a 7 suicide watch cell, he wasn't going to do 8 anything to harm himself. So, we stepped him 9 down. I think maybe gave him a -. I don't 10 know if she gave him underwear, or gave him 11 something, so that he was more comfortable. 12 So, it wasn't so depriving. Because he kept 13 adamantly denying wanting to harm himself. 14 And, you know, she came and talked to me. I 15 didn't sit in that interview because she's a 16 licensed psychologist, and she felt it was safe 17 to step him down, because he would still be by 18 himself in that cell, constantly observe with 19 the lights on all night. Nothing would have 20 changed. 21 : So, I guess -- 22 : So. 23 : -- what he wants to know, 24 though, is, was that normal? Is that normal 25 practice -- EFTA00058742 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. 2 -- for her to do that? 3 : We do that. I mean 4 Okay. 5 not all facilities have 6 the step down, the psychological observation. 7 Some people just have the suicide watch. And 8 then, they will give them privileges while they 9 are on suicide watch. But we have that, so, if 10 you want, because suicide watch is so strict, 11 that he couldn't even have a pair of underwear. 12 He couldn't, you know, have a piece of mail. 13 Nothing. So, we didn't feel he needed that 14 strict of supervision, but we still wanted him 15 constantly observed, to see, and we could 16 always step him back up, if he engaged in any 17 behavior, because he would be constantly 18 watched. 19 All right. So, suicide 20 watch and psychological observation are 21 extremely similar. 22 Very similar. Except that we 23 can give a little more privilege. Like I said, 24 we could give him a book to read. Or we could 25 give him a pair of - start with the underwear. EFTA00058743 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 Or, you know, he could have toothpaste, and 2 give it back to brush his teeth. That type of 3 thing. It wasn't as strict. 4 : And at the MCC, when an 5 inmate potentially attempts to harm themselves, 6 how long are they typically on suicide watch 7 versus observation, before -- 8 : Well, that -- 9 : -- they (Indiscernible 10 *00:47:51)? 11 : -- depends on how the inmate 12 presents. 13 : Okay. 14 : I mean, I have had people on 15 suicide watch for long periods of time because 16 they can't verbalize any protective factors, 17 which would be reasons they have for wanting to 18 be alive at the time. Reasons they have to 19 live. Factors that we would look at to say, 20 hmm, there is more factors here that suggest he 21 wants to be alive, and that he has reasons to 22 be alive versus not. Versus risk factors. 23 So, at that time, he had verbalized enough 24 protective factors that Dr. felt 25 comfortable stepping him down to psychological EFTA00058744 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 observation. I don't have her SRA in front of 2 me, but if you read it, it would have his 3 reasons for wanting to be alive, his 4 presentation of not exhibiting any acute mental 5 health symptoms, not being depressed. So, she 6 stepped him down at that point. 7 : Okay. Now, do you know, 8 when they are on psychological observation, are 9 they allowed to have attorney visits? 10 : They usually consult with us 11 to see if we feel comfortable with that. And I 12 do allow it. A lot of times, as long as, you 13 know, there is a lieutenant present, or there 14 is an officer present there. 15 : Okay. And in this case, 16 do you know if Epstein was allowed attorney 17 visits while he was on observation? 18 : I don't remember. 19 : Okay. 20 : To be honest. 21 : So -- 22 : I don't remember. 23 so, it's -- 24 : It's very possible. 25 : -- okay. And do you know EFTA00058745 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 if the institution was contacted by anyone, 2 such as Epstein's attorneys, or the judge, 3 asking that he be taken off of suicide watch 4 and placed on observation because he wasn't 5 being afforded attorney visits, or for any 6 other reason? 7 : No. I don't recall that 8 happening. 9 : Okay. And on that same 10 note, do you recall either the judge, an 11 attorney, or anyone from the outside, 12 contacting the institution when he was taken 13 off of observation and placed back in the SHU? 14 : I don't recall speaking to 15 any attorney about that. 16 : No, not you speaking with 17 them. But I mean, them contacting - I'm 18 assuming they would contact the warden. 19 : That, I don't know about. 20 : And the warden never had 21 that, or anyone, any of the executive staff, or 22 anyone had any conversation with you or staff, 23 saying, this is what we are getting from the 24 outside, the judge contacted us, or the 25 attorney, you know, the attorneys -? EFTA00058746 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I don't know. 2 : No? 3 : Hmm-mm. 4 : So, that was - you don't 5 believe that was at all factored into the 6 taking off of suicide watch? 7 : Oh, no. It would never be 8 factored anyway. 9 : Okay. 10 : Yeah. 11 : So, regardless, if they 12 contacted you, that wouldn't be a factor? 13 : No. I mean, that wouldn't 14 They would never influence our decision. 15 : Okay. 16 : One way or another. 17 : Okay. Great. 18 : You mentioned before, when 19 somebody is taken off of suicide watch and 20 placed back in psychological, step down into 21 psychological observation, they are given back 22 one piece of item at a time. 23 : Well, no, sometimes it could 24 be more than one. It depends on the situation. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058747 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 : But what I am saying is, when 2 you were reading the paper -- 3 : Yeah. 4 -- it sounded like we just 5 give them everything. We make those decisions. 6 We may step them one at a time, if it is more 7 significant. We may give them a book. And a 8 pair of underwear. I mean, we may give them -. 9 It is just whatever, it is at the discretion of 10 the psychologists that interview them, on what 11 they are going to allow the inmate to have. 12 : Do you know how it worked 13 with Mr. Epstein? Was he given one item at a 14 time back -? One or two items, or was he given 15 everything back? 16 : I don't remember. I don't 17 think he was given everything back, initially. 18 That's for sure. But -. 19 : Okay. I'm going to keep 20 going. 21 : Yeah. 22 : "At that time, was 23 not any clearer on which of her hypotheses 24 might have been true. Epstein could have been 25 using his charm to breed doubt about what EFTA00058748 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 happened. Psychology had not been contacted by 2 Epstein's attorneys with concerns regarding his 3 mental health. On July 25th, 2019, 4 met with Epstein, who was in good spirits. And 5 greeted her by saying, `Welcome back.' Dr. 6 confronted Epstein on the attempted 7 suicide incident, in an attempt to get answers. 8 Epstein said he was baffled over it, and told 9 to give him some ques to help him 10 remember. He continued with his requests and 11 complaints, and did not want to go back to the 12 SHU. Epstein told , `I have a life, 13 and want to go back to living my life.' Dr. 14 kept him on observation because her 15 questions had not been answered, regarding 16 their suicide attempt." 17 : Or the suicide attempt. 18 "Regarding the suicide 19 attempt." 20 : True. 21 : "After a conversation with 22 Dr. , the national suicide prevention 23 coordinator from central office, got 24 involved in Epstein's housing. Dr. 25 recommended housing Epstein with a sex offender EFTA00058749 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 in SHU, which passed on via email to 2 executive staff. On July -." 3 : Do you know which 4 executive staff you sent that to? 5 : No. I know I gave a bunch of 6 documentation, when I had my last interview. 7 There may have been an email. I don't remember 8 who -- 9 : Sure. 10 : -- it was so. 11 : And did you concur with 12 his recommendation? 13 : Yeah. 14 : Great. 15 : "On July 26th, 2019, Dr. 16 met with Epstein. Epstein said he 17 needed to establish trust with 18 What did he mean by that? 19 : He kept saying this thing, if 20 you want -. It was this weird thing he said, 21 something. "If you want my trust, I have to 22 trust you." And that was trust that, if he 23 asked for certain things, that I would follow 24 through with those wants. You know, if I said 25 I was going to do something, I would follow EFTA00058750 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 through with it type of thing. I just remember 2 that. 3 : Basically, he wanted you to 4 provide something, so he can reciprocate? 5 : Right. 6 : Basically, if you wanted 7 answers from him, you had to provide him with 8 9 : No. 10 : -- is that what -? 11 : It wasn't like that. It was 12 just - again, I probably would have to refer to 13 my notes for that one - but it was just a weird 14 thing that he used to say. Like, if you want, 15 if we want to have, like, this trusting 16 relationship type of thing, then, you know, I 17 have to trust that you are going to follow 18 through with your stuff, and you -. And then, 19 you can trust me. I don't know. It was 20 strange. I don't really know what he meant by 21 that. 22 : Okay. "He continued with 23 complaints and jokes, making reference to Dr. 24 being Jewish, like him. It is against 25 Jewish religion to commit suicide." Is that EFTA00058751 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 something he mentioned, or is that a statement 2 from you? 3 : No. He joked about it one 4 time, in attorney conference. I didn't know 5 how he knew I was even Jewish, but he said 6 something to me, like, what's a nice Jewish 7 girl like you doing here? You know, working in 8 - or some comment like that. 9 : Okay. 10 : And -- 11 : But it is against the Jewish 12 religion to commit suicide. But he didn't say 13 anything until that one time in attorney 14 conference. 15 : And you were in there, in 16 the attorney conference, with him? 17 : Well, because I went to go 18 check on him, remember, because I -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : I know he was never in his 21 cell. 22 : Okay. 23 : He was never available. 24 : And he stated that? 25 : Yeah. He made, like, in EFTA00058752 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 front of the attorney, like, a little, a little 2 joke. 3 : Okay. 4 : Like that. 5 : And just the way that it 6 reads in there, it doesn't say that he stated 7 it, or you stated it. It just says, "It is 8 against the Jewish religion to commit suicide." 9 So, just -- 10 : Maybe -- 11 : -- for context. 12 : -- that might have been in 13 one of our notes. I don't know if he mentioned 14 that. But -- 15 : But he -- 16 : I don't -- 17 : -- but he 18 : I don't know where that 19 came from. 20 : -- but he said it to you 21 in the attorney conference? He was with you 22 : Yeah. He didn't -- 23 : -- in the attorney 24 : -- say anything about it's 25 against the Jewish -. Oh, maybe he did. I EFTA00058753 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 don't remember. He may have. He may have, in 2 a joking way, said something like that to me. 3 I don't remember, to be honest. 4 : Okay. 5 : I would have to see -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- if that is one of my 8 notes. Or if it is something that was just in 9 passing at attorney conference. I just 10 remember that one incident. About the Jewish 11 thing. Like, what's a Jewish girl like you 12 doing here? Or something. 13 : Okay. 14 "Epstein said he did not like 15 pain, and didn't want to hurt himself. Epstein 16 had been interacting with the companions 17 assigned to him regularly. On July 27th, 2019, 18 Dr. met with Epstein, who was anxious 19 about going back to SHU, due to the fact he did 20 not know how he got the marks. Epstein did not 21 answer Dr. questions about that night. 22 She had begun working more therapeutically with 23 him, and provided him with handouts to cope 24 with housing. Lieutenant Doctor's 25 investigation into a possible assault regarding EFTA00058754 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this incident still had not returned any 2 answers. Dr. kept Epstein on 3 psychological observation." 4 : Just real quick on that. 5 It just says, "He was anxious about going back 6 to the SHU due to the fact he did not know how 7 he got the marks." So, he had changed his 8 story of how he got the marks, at that point? 9 : He didn't change the story. 10 He just didn't say anymore it was Tartaglione. 11 He was then, I don't know how I got the marks. 12 So, he -- 13 : So, he went -- 14 : -- he kept changing his 15 story. 16 : -- all right. So, he 17 went from Tartaglione did it, to I don't know 18 how I did it? 19 : Right. 20 : Or how it happened? 21 : Right. 22 : And do you know why that 23 happened, or did you question him about that? 24 : Yeah, but he just kept being 25 vague, like he didn't know anything, or that, EFTA00058755 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 like, he blacked out, or he doesn't recall how 2 it happened. 3 : Was he questioned, like, 4 well, before you said that Tartaglione did it, 5 and now you are saying you don't recall. 6 : I don't know if Dr. 7 confronted him in that way, because we are not, 8 like, investigators. 9 : Sure. Sure. 10 : You know, so, we don't -. 11 Psychologists don't always think that way. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, I don't know, but I 14 think, likely, she probably mentioned that, and 15 then, he was, like, oh, well, I don't, I don't 16 know. He was very vague. 17 : Okay. 18 : In giving us the reason. 19 : Okay. 20 : That happened. 21 "On July 28th, 2019, Dr. 22 met with Epstein, who appeared the same. 23 His logbook showed no signs of suicidality, and 24 he was participating in his legal meetings. 25 There had been no contact from Epstein's legal EFTA00058756 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 team regarding any mental health concerns." 2 : Okay. So, there it says 3 that he actually was meeting with his legal 4 team. 5 : Okay. 6 : Okay. 7 : So, being that he was on 8 psych ops, that he wasn't acutely, eminently 9 suicidal, that he had been denied any current 10 thoughts of hurting himself, and over the past 11 several days, while on watch, he hadn't 12 displayed any self-harm behaviors. Or any odd 13 or unusual behaviors. Likely, we didn't have a 14 problem with him going there, as long as there 15 were staff up there -- 16 : Okay. 17 to watch him. 18 : So, he would actually go 19 from observation to the attorney conference 20 rooms? 21 : And then, be escorted back. 22 Yes. 23 : Okay. So, it wasn't that 24 they were meeting him at the suicide -- 25 : No. EFTA00058757 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- watch area. 2 : We never do that. 3 : Okay. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. 6 : Do you know if those are all- 7 day meetings? Like, he normally had, or was it 8 just short meetings? 9 : I don't know how long the 10 meetings were. 11 : Okay. 12 : Yeah. Because if you 13 don't know, he was meeting with the attorneys 14 from, like, 7:00 or 8:00 a.m., up until, like, 15 7:00 p.m., every day. At least outside of this 16 17 : Yes. I knew that. Because 18 that's -- 19 : -- but you don't know if 20 21 : -- that's why I could never 22 see him, but I don't remember, while he was on 23 watch, how many hours a day. I think he was 24 probably there for a significant period of 25 time. EFTA00058758 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : While he was on 2 observation? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. 5 : But then, he would be 6 returned to psych ops while someone would sit 7 on him. 8 : But is that normal, though? 9 I mean, someone who is on psych ops be - you 10 mentioned that somebody who was in psych 11 observation should be monitored constantly. 12 Right? There's someone monitoring -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- them? 15 : But he was right in front of 16 the officer that worked at attorney conference. 17 He was right there. And right by the 18 lieutenant's office. So, they could be 19 observing him the whole time. 20 : Okay. So, someone 21 : Right. 22 : -- is sitting there, watching 23 him -- 24 : Yeah. 25 -- at all times? EFTA00058759 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 : Yeah. There was somebody 2 there. Like, the way our attorney. I don't 3 know. Have you been to our attorney conference 4 room? 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Do you know where the officer 7 sits there, there is an attorney conference 8 room right next to him, that has windows. 9 That's where Epstein was every day. 10 : So, you could see in? 11 : Full. Yeah. You could see 12 his, like, white - you come off the elevator - 13 you saw his white hair. Like, he was right 14 there. 15 : Okay. 16 : Like, he could be seen by the 17 attorney conference officer. At all times. 18 And he was with his attorneys. So, I mean, if 19 God forbid, he started banging his head for one 20 second, the officer was right outside his 21 window. 22 : Okay. 23 : Yeah. So, we felt, you know, 24 it was okay, and again, he wasn't on suicide 25 watch. We didn't think he was eminently EFTA00058760 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 suicidal. But precautionary, we had him on 2 psych ops, because we - the vagueness of his 3 responses. 4 : Okay. 5 : And not feeling completely 6 comfortable putting him in GP, until we 7 observed him over a period of time. So, that 8 is why. 9 : Okay. 10 : Because he wasn't on suicide 11 watch anymore. So. 12 : Anything else on that? 13 : No. I guess just on that 14 note, if he is meeting his, with his attorneys, 15 while he was on observation, are his 16 psychological needs being met? 17 : Well, that's why we had to go 18 up there, and talk to him. 19 : Right, right, right. 20 : So, we would go up there and 21 interview him. 22 : And around how long would 23 those interviews take? 24 : I guess five to ten minutes. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058761 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 : Just to check in. But a lot 2 of times, on suicide watch, they were, too. 3 mean, we would review the suicide watch book 4 throughout the night, because we are not there 5 24 hours. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : So, we would look at his book 8 from before his visit, through the night. And 9 then, we would see him daily. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : We would see him And 12 maybe, some of the times we saw him before he 13 saw his attorneys. 14 : Sure. 15 : See, I don't, I don't know if 16 -. I know -- 17 : So, as far as -- 18 : I personally went up there 19 once or twice. 20 : -- but what -- 21 : I don't know if Dr. 22 maybe went there once or twice, because when 23 she went back there to see him, he was with his 24 attorney. 25 : Now, would that be any EFTA00058762 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 different than if he were not seeing his 2 attorneys? Was that the same amount of time 3 that psychology would see him, if he was with 4 his attorneys, or staying in the cell where he 5 was being observed? 6 : Yeah. We usually, like, 15 7 minutes. I mean, it's not a therapy session. 8 : Sure. 9 : We're just, you know, doing a 10 mental status, seeing how they are doing. Are 11 you eating or sleeping? Are you having 12 thoughts of hurting yourself? We read the 13 book. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : In its entirety, for the past 16 24 hours, to see, did he voice anything to the 17 companions that he wanted to hurt himself. Did 18 he take his meals? Did he eat his meals? Did 19 he shower? Is he, you know, is he displaying 20 any behaviors that are consistent with 21 depression? So, we look at all of that. Ana 22 then, we interview him. We do the mental 23 status. We ask him how he's doing. And so, 24 that would be pretty consistent. It might have 25 been a little shorter on occasion, if he was up EFTA00058763 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 there with his attorneys, because his attorneys 2 were there. So, it wouldn't really be 3 confidential. But we do -- 4 : Oh, so, when you were 5 conversing with him, it would be in front of 6 his attorneys? 7 : -- yeah. 8 : Okay. 9 : Is that normal? 10 : Yeah. Well, because he was 11 in there with his - he has a right to his legal 12 meetings - so, he was with his attorneys. It 13 wasn't every time. I mean, there might have 14 been one or two occasions where we had to see 15 him up there, because he was in the meeting 16 with the attorneys. So, yeah. We talked to him 17 in front of his attorney to make sure he was 18 okay. 19 : Now, when you say he has 20 a right to his attorneys, if he was on suicide 21 watch, would he have the right to his 22 attorneys? 23 : Normally, I really do try to 24 get them to meet with their attorney. I mean, 25 that's only if they are actively, like, EFTA00058764 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 cutting, or -- 2 : Yeah. 3 : -- wanting to hurt 4 themselves, then I would have a lieutenant up 5 there. 6 : Sure. 7 : Like, I always try to give 8 people the right to be with their attorneys 9 because that could make them even more 10 depressed. 11 : Sure. 12 : If you deprive them of being 13 able to work on their legal case. 14 : Okay. 15 : All right. "On July 29th, 16 visited Epstein. Epstein expressed 17 that he would like to stay in psychological 18 observation because it is safe. Epstein had 19 been requesting his CPAP machine, so that he 20 could get a good night's sleep. Due to the 21 machine having a cord, this could not be 22 accommodated in psychological observation. 23 Epstein was given a chance to stay in 24 psychological observation -". 25 : A choice. Not a chance. EFTA00058765 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Sorry. 2 : Epstein was given 3 : "Epstein was given a choice 4 to stay in psychological observation one more 5 night without it, or go to the SHU with it. He 6 chose to stay in psychological observation one 7 more night. consulted with the 8 executive staff, prior to this decision." 9 : Yeah. 10 "On July 30th, 2019, Dr. 11 transitioned Epstein back to the SHU. 12 Dr. sent an email, updating the 13 appropriate staff for Epstein's transition off 14 psychological observation, and the need for him 15 to be housed with a cellmate." 16 : Okay. 17 : Bear with us. 18 : So, that contact was at his 19 cell. It wasn't with the attorney. If there 20 was, like I said, a couple of contacts that 21 were in attorney conference, they were field 22 most of them were at his cell, we caught him 23 before he went up to his legal visits. That 24 last visit was in person. I remember that 25 visit. EFTA00058766 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : With the CPAP. 3 : Now, do you recall, when Dr. 4 transitioned Epstein back to the SHU, was 5 that solely the decision of psychology, or was 6 there any recommendation from executive 7 management? Like, the warden, the associate 8 warden, or somebody from the outside, as Agent 9 asked before. 10 : No. That was our decision. 11 After him being between suicide watch and psych 12 ops for almost a full week. It was our 13 decision that he was not eminently suicidal, 14 and could be transitioned. 15 : Okay. 16 : And just to, I mean, 17 Epstein expressed that he would like to stay in 18 psychological observation because it was safe. 19 So, he actually preferred psychological 20 observation over the SHU? 21 : Because he wasn't being able 22 to be housed where he wanted to be housed. He 23 didn't want to go to Special Housing. Like I 24 said, he wanted to be housed in the Cadre unit. 25 He wanted to dictate his housing arrangements. EFTA00058767 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 When they weren't what he wanted them to be, 2 and I guess maybe he heard rumors, or whatever, 3 that the SHU was, like, a bad place, or a scary 4 place, he didn't want to go back there. 5 But a lot of inmates don't want to go to 6 SHU, and that is why, earlier, when you said a 7 lot of people fake mental illness, or fake 8 suicidality, so that they can come down to our 9 suicide watch area, and just interact with the 10 companions, and hope that maybe someone will 11 slip them something they couldn't have while 12 they were in the SHU. Or just to get a timeout 13 because it could be loud up there, because 14 inmates will scream outside their cells, 15 because I don't know if you are familiar with 16 an AD-SEG (Phonetic Sp. *01:06:16) unit, or a 17 Special Housing Unit, where inmates are in a 18 cell, with a cellmate, like, 23 out of 24 hours 19 a day. So, it gets loud and rowdy. 20 So, a lot of times, people try to come 21 down. It's, like, almost, like, the Marriott, 22 you know, to come to our suicide watch area, 23 where it is peaceful and quiet, and they don't 24 have to hear things, or if they are having 25 problems with officers up there. So, it's not EFTA00058768 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 uncommon for any inmate to try to avoid going 2 to the Special Housing Unit. 3 : Okay. 4 : You know, it's not an 5 uncommon occurrence. 6 : Yeah. And I'm assuming - 7 8 : I never have any -- 9 : -- (Indiscernible 10 *01:06:50). 11 -- inmates say I want to go 12 back to the, you know, the SHU. 13 : From observation? 14 : No. 15 : So, it's bet -- 16 : Very rarely. 17 : -- yeah. 18 : Unless they are so sick of it 19 because they have been deprived for so long 20 down there, that they feel that their wants and 21 needs will be met, or better suited up in the 22 SHU, then they will be, like, okay, I'll go 23 back, I'll go back. 24 : Okay. But -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058769 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 : -- in observation, he was 2 housed by himself. Correct? 3 : Yes. 4 : And he wanted to be 5 housed by himself. Correct? 6 : Not necessarily. Because he 7 wanted to go to the Cadre Unit, which is a 8 dorm-style unit. 9 : Okay. 10 : With all the other, with tons 11 of other inmates. 12 : All right. Yeah. 13 : He just, there were certain 14 places he didn't want to go. 15 : SHU. So, he just 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- rather be in 18 observation than the SHU. 19 : Right. I mean, this is a guy 20 that has never jailed before. 21 : Sure. 22 : He's in, you know, his late 23 sixties. He's probably afraid, like anybody 24 would be. 25 : So, he preferred the EFTA00058770 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 general housing unit over the SHU, though? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : Particularly, the dorm-style 5 Cadre Unit. 6 : Yeah. Maybe I'm not -. 7 Is that different than the general housing 8 unit? 9 : Yeah. 10 : Okay. 11 : Because in the regular 12 housing units, you are celled with a cellmate 13 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- at night. Whereas in the 16 Cadre Unit, there are tiers of dorms. So, it 17 is a bunch of bunkbeds. And so -- 18 : Oh, it's per -- 19 : -- it's more open. 20 : -- it's per tier, would it 21 be? 22 : I'm not sure per tier. I 23 know there is about - it can house, like, 100, 24 120 inmates. The dorms. 25 : With no, like, doors, or EFTA00058771 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 not separated? 2 : No. There is just a tier. 3 There is a -. No. 4 : So, he -. So, we had 5 always heard, up until this time, that he 6 wanted to be housed alone. What you are saying 7 is he wanted to be actually housed with more 8 people? 9 : Well, that is where -. Well, 10 he wanted to be housed there, where Manafort 11 and other people had been housed, where Cadre 12 inmates were housed. Maybe because the Cadres 13 were, he felt they were less dangerous. 14 : Okay. 15 : I don't know. I know when he 16 came in, he didn't like being on the unit. 17 That was for sure. 18 : And is the Cadre 19 : You know? 20 : -- Unit the low -- 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- security level -- 23 : -- yeah. 24 : -- inmates? 25 : Yeah. Because those are the EFTA00058772 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ones that have been sentenced, to lower 2 sentences. 3 : Okay. So, he wanted to 4 be where the lower sentence inmates were. 5 : Yeah. 6 : Okay. 7 : That was the only place, 8 think, he was wiling to go. In our 9 conversations. 10 : Okay. 11 : Was Paul Manafort still 12 there, at that point? 13 : I don't know if he had 14 recently left. He thought he was still there 15 because he was only there briefly. 16 : So, he's not asking So, 17 he, as if he knows Paul Manafort, and he wants 18 to go be housed with Paul Manafort. He just 19 wants to be -. He just wanted to be in the 20 same area as Paul Manafort was housed. 21 : Right. 22 : Okay. 23 : And there was somebody else. 24 I can't remember who he said. There was 25 somebody else, more high-profile, that was EFTA00058773 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 there, and he said he wanted to be where that 2 person was. 3 : Okay. 4 : Maybe he felt it was safer 5 because they were surviving there, or whatever. 6 I don't know what his thought process was, but 7 that's how, that's -. I think it's -. I mean, 8 it was part of his personality. I mean, he 9 wants to be associated with higher-level 10 people, and these were, that was a higher-level 11 inmate. You know, so, he would feel 12 comfortable being amongst those type of people. 13 : Okay. 14 : Does that make sense? 15 : Yes. 16 : Yeah. Okay. 17 : I'm going to keep going. 18 : Yes. 19 discussed the 20 importance of SHU inmates having a cellmate for 21 the following reasons: it decreases isolation; 22 it decreases privacy; provides a distraction; 23 provides a rescue opportunity." 24 : Yes. 25 "At risk settings for EFTA00058774 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 inmates, including housing, single cells, and 2 private spaces. SHU employees receive training 3 on suicide prevention quarterly. All employees 4 receive suicide prevention training once a 5 year. provided slides from MCC's 6 suicide prevention training to the interviewing 7 agents, reference that, referred to as 8 references any denying, attached to his report. 9 She stated all lieutenants should be aware of 10 the cellmate policy. Both due to the training 11 regularly provided, and psychological services 12 constantly reminding them of the procedure, and 13 needs of specific inmates. noted, 14 after Epstein's death, his old cellmate's label 15 was still on his door. That is one of the 16 things that the psych department looks for, in 17 their daily rounds in the SHU, that there are 18 two bodies in each cell." Now, that label on 19 the door, if an inmate is removed, should that 20 label have been removed, too? 21 : Yes. 22 : How soon? 23 : It should have been done 24 immediately, especially since he was housed 25 with Epstein. EFTA00058775 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Why should it have been 2 removed immediately? 3 : Because then his cellmate was 4 bailed out, and wasn't coming back. 5 : By removing it, would that 6 also give SHU officers, inform the SHU officers 7 that there is only one inmate in that cell? 8 : That would have helped. Yes. 9 Most definitely. It wouldn't have been the 10 only way they should know, but it definitely 11 would have helped the situation. 12 : Are we talking about 13 August 9th right now? 14 : I don't know. 15 : Yeah. Because it says, "Dr. 16 noted that after Epstein's death, his 17 old cellmate's label was still on his door." 18 : Okay. So, who would have 19 been, on August 9th, the one who would have 20 done the rounds in the SHU? 21 : The psychologist? 22 : I guess, it sounds like - 23 24 : Well, psychology, psychology 25 rounds is weekly. We do weekly rounds. And EFTA00058776 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 monthly SHU reviews, which are more intense 2 rounds. So, we didn't see Epstein every single 3 day. 4 : Yeah. Okay. 5 : That, we didn't do. We don't 6 do daily rounds. We do weekly rounds. 7 Sometimes, we are up there, we are up there 8 almost every day, especially when we were, our 9 SHU was full, because there is always inmates 10 that have concerns or needs. So, if we are up 11 there, and an inmate has a concern, we go to 12 that tier and see those inmates. 13 : Just those -- 14 : But as far as going cell to 15 cell, we do that weekly. 16 okay. Because this, 17 yeah, this last sentence said, "This is one of 18 the things the psych department looks for in 19 their daily rounds in the SHU -- 20 : In our rounds -- 21 : -- that there are two 22 bodies in each cell." 23 : In our rounds. Like, if we 24 are doing our weekly rounds, and we notice that 25 EFTA00058777 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 -- someone doesn't have a 3 cellmate, especially if we know that person is 4 a care two and above, we are going to say 5 something. Like, why is this inmate housed by 6 themselves? 7 : So, when they said daily 8 rounds, you are not doing that every day. 9 : Hmm-mm. 10 : They meant your weekly 11 rounds. 12 : Yeah. 13 : And do you know what day 14 of the week that was done back then? 15 : I don't. 16 : No? 17 : I do not know the -. I would 18 have to look at the SHU logs. 19 : Okay. And do you know if 20 it was done on that Friday, on August 9th, the 21 day before? 22 : No. But I do know, on August 23 8th, before I left for vacation, I personally 24 went up there, just to check on him, and he had 25 a cellmate at that time. EFTA00058778 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Right. Okay. 2 : Anything else? 3 : Nope. 4 was aware that 5 Dr. attended the close out 6 meeting that week, and discussed Epstein's 7 desire to have a single cell, but his need for 8 a cellmate. was unaware regular 9 rounds by the correctional officers were not 10 being completed. She is considered executive 11 staff, so officers would not tell her they were 12 not being completed, and inmates wouldn't tell 13 her because of fear of retaliation by the 14 guards. 15 noted Lieutenant is very 16 regimented, and regularly does what she asks. 17 was not aware that Epstein signed a 18 new will on August 8th. Had she known, it 19 would have been considered a red flag, and 20 Epstein would have been placed on psychological 21 observation. The attorneys did not tell anyone 22 from psychological services that it had 23 occurred." So, we had a couple of questions. 24 How did you learn that he had signed a will? 25 : The newspaper. EFTA00058779 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : In the paper? 2 : Yes. 3 : That's not something that you 4 learned firsthand, from the attorneys, or by 5 being -- 6 : No. 7 : -- okay. 8 : Do you know if he 9 actually, in fact, signed a new will on the 10 8th? 11 : No. Hearsay. 12 : Okay. Did you bring that 13 up during the interview, or did the agents ask 14 you about it? 15 : That, I don't remember. 16 : Okay. 17 : How it came up. They may 18 have asked me a question, if I knew about it. 19 : Okay. 20 : And I may have said, probably 21 said no. I didn't know about it directly from 22 them. I knew about it from reading it in the 23 paper. 24 : Okay. 25 : But one thing I did say, EFTA00058780 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 after reading the paper, gee, that would have 2 been helpful information. Because had I known 3 that, I would have said, that is a red flag, 4 and let's put him back on, and just watch him 5 for a few more days, and see if we can get more 6 information from him. About why he would do 7 that, or what was going on. 8 : Should have the attorneys 9 notified you? 10 : Well, the attorneys have 11 their own ethical, you know, confidentiality 12 issues. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, you know, a lot of times, 15 attorneys call us all the time if they are 16 concerned about their patients. I mean, I get, 17 I used to get, like, several a week, where 18 attorneys would call in and say, you know, I'm 19 worried, I talked to my client on the phone. I 20 don't like how he sounded. Can psychology 21 check on that inmate? And I was, like, why 22 didn't they do that this time? Because they 23 always do that. And we do. We go immediately. 24 So, if that was true, I wish someone would have 25 called us, but they didn't. EFTA00058781 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 : All right. Thank you Did 2 you have the key to the restroom? I think that 3 that person needed it. 4 : Oh. 5 : Is this the only one we 6 have? 7 : Yes. 8 : But, you know, again, like, 9 attorneys have their own ethical -. Like, they 10 can't -. I don't know what their ethical 11 standards are, but I guess, if he didn't say he 12 was going to kill himself, and he's just 13 signing a will, they don't -. I don't think 14 they have to tell, call us. It would be a 15 choice if they had a concern, that he was going 16 to hurt himself. 17 : Okay. 18 : But -. 19 : Well, before -. 20 : Yeah. Yeah. 21 : Did he ever bring up changing 22 his will in any of his your meetings, or the 23 psychological meeting 24 : No. 25 : -- psychological meetings EFTA00058782 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with him? 2 : No. 3 : That was the first time you 4 guys had, you ever heard that would be from -- 5 : Right. 6 -- (Indiscernible *01:16:30). 7 : After the fact. I read that, 8 and I was, like -. 9 : And now, why would it be a 10 red flag? 11 : Because he is in jail. He is 12 not happy being in jail. He is facing a lot of 13 time. He's high risk. And he is signing a 14 will. You know, I definitely would have 15 interviewed him. I can't say 100 percent he 16 would be put on psych ops, but if he didn't 17 give me the answers that I was looking for, he 18 would have been put on some form of 19 observation, until we could get the answers 20 that we were looking for. 21 mentioned that 22 was the first day ever, she ever heard about 23 the will being changed. There was no 24 discussion with Epstein before 25 : No. EFTA00058783 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 : -- about the will." 2 : Epstein never shared that 3 with me. It was something that I read after 4 the fact. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And again, I don't know if 7 it's true or not true. 8 : Sure. 9 : "On August 8th, 2019, Dr. 10 attended the SHU meeting. She couldn't 11 recall all who was there, but it included unit 12 team members, executive staff, and attorneys 13 for MCC. Nothing significant was discussed 14 about Epstein at the meeting. She conducted 15 SHU rounds, to see Epstein." Is this what you 16 mentioned before, that before you went on 17 vacation? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Okay. "He had a cellmate at 20 the time, and Epstein had the lower bunk. He 21 didn't have any visible problems, appeared in 22 good spirits, and reported getting along with 23 his cellmate. He had received his pack number, 24 which allows him to make phone calls, and he 25 had asked for his books from psychological EFTA00058784 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 observation." When he received his pack 2 number, do you know if it was active, and was 3 he able to make phone calls with it? 4 : That, I don't know. That, 5 only unit team would know. 6 : Do you know around what 7 time the SHU meeting would have been held? 8 : Thursdays. Thursdays, at 9 that time, they say that my meetings have 10 changed with different -- 11 : Sure. 12 every warden changes it. 13 : And what time -- 14 I believe they -- 15 : -- did you work? 16 were in the morning. 17 Like, around 9:00. 18 : Okay. 19 : Like, 9:00. 20 : So, if around, like, 21 3:00, 3:30, the Marshals sent an email saying 22 that his cellmate was going to be transferred, 23 that wouldn't have been discussed at that SHU 24 meeting? 25 : Hmm-mm. EFTA00058785 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 : And did you know anything 2 about any emails -- 3 : No. 4 : -- regarding -? 5 : And I didn't know the inmate 6 was The inmate -. I didn't know that he 7 went to court that day, or anything. I was not 8 even in town. 9 : Right. I'm saying the 10 day before -- 11 : Yeah. 12 : -- on August 8th, there 13 was emails that were sent from the U.S. Marshal 14 Service, saying that his celimate Reyes was 15 going to be transferred to another institution. 16 I was just wondering if that was at all 17 discussed -- 18 : No. Not that I -- 19 : -- that wasn't discussed. 20 : -- and I, likely, I don't 21 know. Yeah. I was -. Huh. I don't remember 22 hearing that at all. 23 : Okay. 24 : Because that would have been 25 EFTA00058786 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 : Even after the fact? 2 : -- that would been something 3 that, you know, the lightbulb kind of would 4 have went on. 5 : Sure. 6 : I was pretty shocked to find 7 out that he didn't have a cellmate. 8 : Right. 9 : After he killed himself. 10 That was the first question I asked. When I 11 was away, and I was went to and the 12 times difference was off, and my flight was 13 delayed. I had slept for, like, two hours. it 14 was very strange. I went into the restroom, 15 you know how you bring your phone? I know, 16 TMI. I pressed my phone, and all these alerts 17 came on, and everyone was texting me, and then, 18 I saw that he had hung himself, and I was just, 19 like, how could that happen? And the first 20 thing, when I called my associate warden, the 21 first thing I asked is, did he have a cellmate? 22 Because that was the first thing that came in 23 my mind. And she was, like, no. 24 : What -? So -- 25 : So -. EFTA00058787 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : -- who was this? 2 : I called 3 : And what did she say 4 about that? 5 : You know, she just said no. 6 And then, I was just, like, I started, like, 7 crying, because I was, like, why? Like -. 8 : And did she respond to 9 where his cellmate was? 10 : She didn't. She was, like, I 11 don't know, . You know, this was all 12 just that morning. 13 : Right. 14 : I mean, she was probably, you 15 know, very upset, too. And that was it. I 16 mean, later on, I found out what happened, 17 which was that his cellmate went to court. He 18 was -- 19 : And so -- 20 : -- bonded out, and that they 21 didn't replace the cellmate with him. 22 • -- so, that is not 23 accurate information. So, who told you that he 24 went to court and bonded out? 25 : That was later on. I don't EFTA00058788 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 remember the person who told me that. 2 : But someone told you he 3 actually went to court, and not transferred to 4 a different institution? 5 : That's what I had heard. 6 : Okay. 7 : That he had gone to court, 8 and then he was That might not be accurate, 9 though. He was bailed out, or he wasn't, 10 didn't come back. 11 : Okay. 12 : That's what I had heard. 13 : Sure. But you don't 14 remember where you heard that from? 15 : Hmm-mm. 16 : Okay. 17 : Well, just to clarify, I 18 think you mentioned it already. There was an 19 email that came up the day before, from the 20 Marshals, on August 8th, in the afternoon, that 21 stated that he was being transferred - 22 was being transferred - to another facility. 23 He wasn't going to court. So, that morning, he 24 would, he wasn't going to court. He was 25 actually transferred out to another facility. EFTA00058789 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 : Okay. Okay. So -- 2 : Now, if an email like that 3 came out, whose responsibility would it have 4 been to make those notifications up, hey, 5 listen, is now gone? 6 : I mean, everybody reviews 7 that. I mean, the captain's review that log. 8 The warden. The executive staff. I mean, I 9 guess they would all see that. 10 : Would psychology have the 11 court production list? 12 : I don't always review the 13 court production list. No. 14 : Yeah. No. You weren't 15 even there. 16 : No. Yeah. 17 : I'm just saying -- 18 : No. 19 : -- like, on, like, on the 20 9th, I guess there would have been a court 21 production list that would have said 22 WAB, With All Belongings. 23 : Right. I mean, I don't have 24 access to that. Some of my staff have that 25 correctional services box. EFTA00058790 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : And they do review it, 3 sometimes. But I'm not so sure we reviewed it, 4 anybody in my department. 5 : Yeah. And again, I know 6 you weren't even -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- there, but so, should 9 have someone reviewed that? 10 : That's not something that we 11 did on a regular basis. 12 : Okay. 13 : You know, we - custodial wise 14 - we don't manage hands-on like that. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : As much. Like, we're not 17 looking all the time. I think now, since this 18 event happened, we might become more involved 19 with that. And review those things. Like, 20 when I get the Marshal's list, I was, I look to 21 make sure they don't have any histories of 22 things, or there is a no Marshal's notices. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : More so than ever now, 25 because, you know, we are hyper alert. EFTA00058791 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 : Sure. 2 : But as psychologists, that is 3 not something that is our job to review, and 4 then compare it to the SHU list, and make sure 5 everybody -- 6 : Absolutely. 7 : -- is cell, you know, that is 8 not something we do. 9 : So, when was listed 10 as WAB, and was removed from the institution on 11 the count numbers and everything - - 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- should someone have 14 notified psychology? Now, this isn't Epstein. 15 : Right. 16 : This is his cellmate. 17 : Right. 18 19 : I don't know so much as 20 notified us, but at least made - or I would 21 think - someone would make arrangements to say, 22 well, this guy is coming out, we've got to get 23 someone in with Epstein. There would be no 24 need to call psychology. Unless Epstein was 25 demonstrating any psychological issues, because EFTA00058792 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 we were -- 2 : Okay. 3 -- following him as needed, 4 and during our weekly rounds, anyway. So, if 5 he displayed, if he didn't display any mental 6 health problems, they probably wouldn't just 7 call us. 8 : So, were there any 9 problems, as you see them, that no one notified 10 anyone in your department that was gone? 11 : Well, the only problem is, if 12 they had planned on housing Epstein alone, and 13 not replacing then we should have been 14 consulted, and spoken to about, do we think 15 that is a good idea? 16 : Right. 17 : So, that is 18 : But -. 19 : -- but that whole - not 20 : But that was never 21 changed -- 22 : -- not likely -- 23 : -- so, he was supposed to 24 be housed with another cellmate -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00058793 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 : -- so, the fact that his 2 cellmate was gone, and he is supposed to be 3 housed with a cellmate, should have they -? 4 Should someone have contacted psychology to let 5 you know this cellmate is gone, we need to get 6 another cellmate in there? Is that something 7 that you should be a part of, or is that 8 something that was just custody? 9 : That is mainly custody. 10 : Okay. 11 : That is mainly custody. Now, 12 things are a little different. I mean, again, 13 things are put into place. That may not have 14 been in place before. Things we may not have 15 been as involved with. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : We have become more involved 18 with. Because of lessons learned. So, now, 19 when they house anybody alone, they let us 20 know, do you recommend this? Like I was 21 telling you, there is a sheet. Do you 22 recommend this? And we always say no. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : I tell my staff, never 25 recommend a single cell. Like, if we think EFTA00058794 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 someone is going to be single celled, we are 2 notified. Oh, this person is going to be -. 3 , come sign this, this form. But 4 before, we didn't do that. Okay, when Epstein 5 was there, we did not do that. 6 : Okay. 7 : If they had a plan to put him 8 by himself, we would have been notified. The 9 fact his cellmate was leaving, we wouldn't have 10 been notified, unless the intention was not to 11 replace him with somebody else. Because the 12 intention was always to keep him in the SHU 13 with a cellmate. 14 : Now -- 15 : I think custody's intention 16 were, too. 17 : -- as far as people 18 : It should have been. 19 : -- that worked in the SHU 20 staff -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- or, for instance, 23 anybody in custody, do you think there is ever 24 an excuse, especially in this specific instance 25 with Epstein, that for people to say, we didn't EFTA00058795 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 know he was supposed to have a cellmate. Is 2 that - do you believe that that is an excuse? 3 Or a reason, I should say. Not an excuse. And 4 this is not, I'm not talking about psychology 5 now. 6 : Right. 7 : What I'm talking about is 8 custody or -. 9 : No. I know what you are 10 saying. I mean, it comes from management and 11 it goes down. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : You see what I'm saying? So, 14 as far as I knew, the lieutenant up there, as 15 far as what he had shared with me, is that he 16 let the officers know. And that there was a 17 sign up there, from what I understand, on their 18 desk, that said he had to have a cellmate. 19 Okay? 20 : Now, did you ever see a 21 sign? 22 : I did not see that sign, 23 because I don't go behind that desk. 24 : Sure. 25 : When I go. So -- EFTA00058796 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Because we knew that 2 there was a sign stating that they had to do 3 rounds on Epstein. It was a big orange sign. 4 But -- 5 : Okay. 6 : -- we have never come 7 across signs saying that he had to have a 8 cellmate. Aside from the very first day -- 9 : Right. 10 : I think -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- that he was actually 13 housed with Reyes. 14 : Right. But I mean, that is 15 something that is monitored by the SHU 16 lieutenant, and the operations lieutenant. 17 They were aware because the captain was aware, 18 and sits in executive staff. 19 : Sure. 20 : And the captain is under the 21 warden, and the warden would have wanted him to 22 have a cellmate. 23 : Right. 24 : A 100 percent. 25 : Absolutely. EFTA00058797 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 : And supported our 2 recommendation for him to have a cellmate. So, 3 where the ball was dropped, I'm not 100 percent 4 sure. But I know executive staff were aware, 5 and I know that was a strong recommendation on 6 our part. Whether the officer's, whether it 7 went down the chain, that, I will not know 8 because I am not in custody. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : How -- 11 : But didn't you say -- 12 how they advised them, you 13 know, the morning of their shift, this is what 14 you need to do. I don't know. 15 : Isn't it something, 16 though, that you guys discuss, or psychology 17 discusses during training, saying that, hey -- 18 : Well, yeah. 19 : -- inmates that are at 20 risk for suicide need to have, if they are 21 coming off -- 22 : Oh, absolutely. 23 : -- suicide observation. 24 So, that is where I mean -- 25 : That is where -- EFTA00058798 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 : -- by, like -- 2 : -- like, the yearly training. 3 I mean, you would think, you know, with the 4 yearly training, with the annual training, with 5 the SHU, there is also a SHU training, a 6 quarterly training that I teach suicide 7 prevention. So, I teach suicide prevention 8 quarterly, to SHU staff. Where I have a slide 9 show that talks about the cellmate, and the 10 need for the cellmate. So -- 11 : What about during their 12 annual refresher training? Is it also 13 discussed? 14 : Yeah. Also. Yes. So -- 15 : So -. 16 : -- it's quarterly and annual. 17 : And you say that same 18 thing during the annual training? 19 : Yes. 20 : Okay. So, not only are 21 the SHU staff getting it in their quarterly 22 training, but every staff is getting it in the 23 annual training. 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058799 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 : Everybody. 2 : So, that is what I mean 3 by, is there ever an excuse, saying that we 4 didn't think he needed one? If they receive 5 this training, shouldn't have they known 6 : Right. And also, I don't 7 know, I mean, he was a high-profile inmate. 8 think everybody was aware of that. 9 : Okay. 10 : So 11 : So, do you -- 12 if he didn't have a 13 cellmate, they would know, even if they thought 14 he wasn't supposed to, they would know that he, 15 they should be rounding every half an hour, and 16 checking on, particularly a high-profile 17 inmate. 18 : Now, does -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- every single staff 21 member of MCC, regardless if custody or not, do 22 they take that annual refresher training? 23 : Yes. 24 : So, R&D -- 25 : They are required. EFTA00058800 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- you know -- 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : They are required. 5 : Okay. Perfect. 6 : Okay. never 7 suggested a cell room with a camera for 8 Epstein, because she wanted him to have a 9 celimate." 10 : I don't make those decisions, 11 as far as who goes on Ten South. Ten South is 12 a high security unit where we house many of the 13 SAMs inmates. I don't know if you are familiar 14 with the SAMs, but they are in Special 15 Administrative Measures. On occasion, we have 16 had high profile inmates, but that is at the 17 discretion of the warden. Not psychology. 18 Whether he wants to house a high-profile inmate 19 up there. We had Bernard Mayta (Phonetic Sp. 20 *01:30:19) up there. We had El Chapo (Phonetic 21 Sp. *01:30:20) up there. We had the Russian 22 arms dealer up there for a while. So, we have 23 had people there. But the warden - and I don't 24 know why, because I was not in those meetings - 25 decided that he was not going to place him in EFTA00058801 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 Ten South. So, if you are not going to be in 2 Ten South, you are going to have a cellmate. 3 You know, as far as I am concerned. But I did 4 not -. I was not -. It was not up to me 5 whether he be placed on Ten South and a camera. 6 : Was that ever -- 7 : My recommendations were not 8 sought. 9 : -- yeah. I was going to 10 say, was it ever -- 11 : No. 12 : -- even discussed with 13 you? 14 : No. 15 : Okay. 16 : It was told. It wasn't 17 discussed. 18 : What was told? I'm 19 sorry. 20 : That he was not going on Ten 21 South. 22 : But that's what I mean. 23 Did Ten South even come up in discussion? 24 : Just that he wasn't going to 25 be housed there. EFTA00058802 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : Okay. 2 : That the warden had decided. 3 I was informed by legal. And I said, oh -- 4 : And when were you 5 informed that? 6 : Earlier -- 7 : Was that before? 8 : -- earlier in his 9 incarceration. 10 : Okay. So, while he was 11 alive? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. So, at the end -- 14 : Yeah. Earlier in his 15 incarceration, I received a phone call that he 16 wasn't going to be housed in Ten South, that it 17 was decided, by the warden, that he wasn't 18 going to put him up there. So, when I was 19 being told that, knowing if he was going to be 20 on Nine South, then I would say certainly 21 suggest a cellmate. But I would have had no 22 problem him being on a camera in Ten South. 23 : Would you have a 24 preference? From Ten South or Nine South? 25 : If I was asked, I would have EFTA00058803 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 preferred, I would have said Ten South because 2 I had been there for so long, and had seen so 3 many high-profile inmates up there, and being 4 on a camera 24/7. 5 : So, you said psychology 6 always recommends a celimate, but in this 7 instance, you would actually recommend him 8 being housed alone with a camera on him? 9 : I think having a celimate is 10 a good thing, but when somebody is this high- 11 profile on other levels, in retrospect, it 12 would have probably been not a bad idea. 13 : So, in retrospect, and 14 obviously, we can all Monday morning -- 15 : Yes. 16 : -- quarterback. 17 : Yes. 18 : And unfortunately -- 19 : Yes. 20 : -- that is what we are 21 doing. 22 : Yes. 23 : But, like -- 24 : Yes. 25 : -- at the time, do you EFTA00058804 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 believe that you would have thought that Ten 2 South would have been more appropriate over 3 Nine South? 4 : I don't really want to say 5 because -- 6 : Sure. 7 : I don't make those 8 decisions. 9 : No. 10 : I mean -- 11 : But you weren't 12 consulted? They 13 : I wasn't consulted. 14 : -- no one told you. 15 : I was told. So, once that 16 happened, then of course, I was going to 17 suggest he have a cellmate. 18 : Okay. But it was the 19 warden's call, as far as you know? 20 : As far as I know. That's what 21 I was told by legal. Which was the warden has 22 decided he will not be on Ten South. They are 23 going to house him on Nine South with 24 Tartaglione. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058805 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : Let me finish that -- 2 : Yes. 3 -- (Indiscernible *01:33:20). 4 That's the last paragraph. "Rooms with cameras 5 aren't always perfect due to the guard having 6 to maintain a constant eye on the camera 7 screen. She noted she has never gone to 8 attorney conference for any other patients or 9 inmates. She believes MCC psychological 10 services did all they could for Epstein. And 11 ultimately, the lack of a cellmate, and under 12 staffing contributed to his death. Three 13 suicide risk assessments were completed on 14 Epstein, which is unusual. One of those was 15 completed due to a judge's order." Is it 16 normal for a judge to request a psychological - 17 18 : It is not uncommon, 19 especially when the judge knew he had been on 20 watch before. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : So, I think, I don't think he 23 was ordered the first time, to be placed on 24 watch. I think it -. I don't remember which 25 time it was that the judge ordered it. But EFTA00058806 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 judges will, if there is, if they have ever 2 been on suicide watch in the past, when they 3 leave a court proceeding. If it was the time 4 that he was denied the bail, I don't know which 5 was the time that the judge ordered it. 6 : So, your -. 7 : Would your notes say when 8 it was? 9 : Possibly. Possibly. 10 : Possibly. 11 : Yeah. 12 : So, you don't think it 13 was the first time, though? 14 : I thought the first time I 15 did it precautionary. I don't know if it had 16 the judge's order. 17 : Now, when you say there 18 are three risk - suicide risk assessments were 19 included, completed on Epstein. 20 : Yes. 21 : Or Epstein. When he 22 first came on, when he, on July 23rd, what was 23 the third? 24 : I think that is when he came 25 back and was denied the bail. EFTA00058807 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 : And do you think that was 2 probably the one that the judge -? Because 3 obviously, you do it when they come on, right? 4 And then, you do it if they try to attempt 5 suicide. 6 : Or maybe the judge -. I 7 don't know if it was the first time. Maybe it 8 was the first time. Because I think the second 9 time was Dr. Which I really 10 complimented her on. I think she did it out of 11 precaution, because of what happened in court. 12 : Okay. And that was 13 : I think she did it on her own 14 instinct. Not because she was told to. 15 : Okay. 16 : Wait. I have an event that 17 took place on August -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- August 1st. It looks like 20 the correctional systems received a form from 21 the U.S. Marshal Service, the previous day 22 stating that Epstein had reported suicidal 23 tendencies. I guess he went to court. And he 24 reported suicidal tendencies. So, the Marshal 25 Service reported that to correctional systems, EFTA00058808 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 and correctional systems notified that to 2 psychological observations. Psychs. 3 : That was August 1st. 4 : Do you believe that might be 5 the third time? 6 : That would have been, 7 like, the day after he came off of -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- psych observation. 10 : Right. And they always put 11 suicidal tendencies on every single one of 12 them. So, I am thinking, because he was just 13 coming off watch, he might have said, I was on 14 watch. 15 : All right. So, that is - 16 17 : But I don't -. 18 : -- you think the Marshals 19 do this frequently? 20 : Yes. 21 : This isn't -- 22 : They all say -- 23 : -- that wasn't 24 suicidal tendencies. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058809 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 : And there, it's, they all say 2 the same thing. 3 : All right. So, that 4 wasn't abnormal that they wrote that on August 5 1st? 6 : Not if he had recently been 7 taken off of watch, and they were aware of 8 that. 9 : Okay. 10 : Okay. 11 : But you don't know what 12 the third instance was, with -? Because we 13 have, again -- 14 : One was when he first came 15 into jail. 16 : -- right. 17 : Remember, we did, we had him 18 on -- 19 : Yup. 20 -- and he was mad. The 21 second time, I believe was when, maybe when the 22 Marshals -. I don't know. I don't know. 23 : So, we know the two. 24 : Yeah. 25 : I'm just trying to -- EFTA00058810 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 : The third one -- 2 : to figure -. 3 was when he had, when he 4 actually had the -- 5 : Yeah, yeah, no 6 -- Marshals -- 7 : I know. They are my 8 two that I know. Is when he first came on, 9 July 23rd. 10 : And I think the other one was 11 when he came back from court. 12 : On the August 1st? 13 : Yeah. I think so. I have to 14 look. It might be. I have to look at my 15 notes. 16 : Okay. 17 : But those were the three 18 times. 19 : Yeah. No. Because in 20 your report, it kind of - because obviously, it 21 was probably taking so long - it kind of jumps 22 really quickly from July 30th to basically the 23 end. 24 : Okay. 25 : So, that was just -. So, EFTA00058811 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 I was wondering -- 2 : Okay. 3 : -- if we were missing 4 something there, and that sounds like maybe 5 that is what we were missing. 6 : Okay. If you wanted me to 7 look at my notes, I could do that. 8 : This. Do you know? Because 9 I think -- 10 : I'll just -- 11 that will help you. 12 : -- real quickly cover 13 this with you. I think we already did. This 14 was the 302 with ? Who 15 is that? 16 : She is the 17 that removed him from watch the 18 first time, and stepped him down to psych ops. 19 : Okay. So, in part of her 20 302, we're just going to cover this quickly. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Just because we're 23 running out of time. It says, " stated 24 psychological observation allowed Epstein to 25 possess hygiene products, two novels, to attend EFTA00058812 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 his legal visits, and to shower." And as we 2 already stated, he was authorized legal visits 3 while he was on observation. 4 : Okay. All right. 5 : Yeah. 6 : So, she did those 7 authorizations. 8 : Okay. 9 : After she took him off. 10 : Okay. So, and then, it 11 says, and that part says, " stated she 12 discussed the decision to step down Epstein 13 with and associate warden 14 ." Now, when she says, " stated she 15 discussed the decision to step down Epstein 16 with and associate warden 17 ," do you know which step down she is 18 talking about? Is she talking about watch to 19 observation? That's what -- 20 : Yes. 21 : -- okay. Rather than 22 observation to SHU? 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. And with associate 25 warden , is that a normal thing EFTA00058813 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 that she would discuss that decision? She 2 would discuss that with an associate warden? 3 Is that normal? 4 : Yes. I mean, maybe 5 gave her a call. Maybe she gave 6 a call, just because he was who he was. 7 We don't do it with every single inmate. We 8 send out a notification to, like, all executive 9 staff. And every day, on who is on watch, he 10 was removed from watch. An average inmate, 11 maybe they wouldn't have had a discussion. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Maybe it was because it was 14 Epstein. 15 : And this is where 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- it goes into the 18 Do you have any knowledge that around this 19 time, executive staff, or anybody at the 20 institution, was contacted by either the 21 attorneys or the judge, saying he needs to be 22 taken off of suicide watch, and put to 23 psychological observation, so the attorney 24 visits may -? 25 : We never got a call like EFTA00058814 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that. 2 : No? Okay. 3 : Yeah. 4 : And you don't know that 5 mentioned that to you guys? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. 8 : Not that I know of. 9 : Okay. It says, "- 10 stated both and concurred with her 11 determination regarding Epstein. 12 stated, `I made the decision with the consent 13 of and .'" Is that correct? 14 : Right. I mean, she came and 15 discussed it with me. And gave me all of the 16 reasons she felt he was written to be stepped 17 down. 18 : Great. 19 : I have a few follow up 20 questions. 21 : So, this is the very end. 22 : This is the very end. 23 : Sorry. 24 : It's okay. 25 : That's okay. EFTA00058815 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 : It's taking longer than 2 we expected. 3 : It's okay. 4 : When inmate was chosen 5 to be Epstein's cellmate after he was brought 6 back to the SHU, do you know who was involved 7 in that decision-making? 8 : Executive staff, most likely. 9 Or correctional staff. Probably the captain. 10 The captain and the AW over programs. 11 : And do you think that 12 everyone, in terms of captain, the lieutenants, 13 and even the SHU staff would have known who 14 was, that he was Epstein's cellmate? 15 : I mean, I would hope that was 16 discussed. But again, I don't know if it was 17 discussed with them. But the captain should 18 have passed it onto the lieutenants, and the 19 lieutenants should have passed it to the staff. 20 : And based on the 21 recommendation, as you mentioned, from your 22 office and also through the chain of command, 23 they should - everyone should have known that 24 Epstein needed a cellmate? 25 : Yes. EFTA00058816 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 : And if everyone knew Epstein 2 needed a cellmate, they should have technically 3 also known that his cellmate was 4 : I would think so. 5 : Okay. 6 : I would hope so. 7 : And when they came up the, 8 came up with the name, with the list of names 9 to place as a cellmate for Epstein, did they 10 have other names also chosen? Or just 11 Hmm. That, I don't know. 12 : Okay. You are not aware? 13 : Because I didn't make those 14 decisions. 15 : Do you know if there -- 16 : At the time. 17 : -- was a plan, if he was 18 to leave, someone else would go into his place? 19 : I don't know that. 20 : Okay. That was a custody 21 22 : Yes. 23 : -- decision? 24 : Determination. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058817 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 : Do know if he was prescribed 2 any medications? Epstein was prescribed any 3 medications? 4 : I would, again, have to see 5 his chart. 6 : Okay. 7 : I don't -- 8 : Not that -. 9 : I don't remember. I don't 10 think so. 11 : Okay. 12 : I mean, from psychiatry. 13 : I want to show -- 14 : I don't remember. 15 : -- we will jump into 16 that. 17 : Yeah. 18 : Just in a couple of 19 minutes. 20 : I just had a quick question. 21 You mentioned that he told you the first time 22 that he had a bail hearing. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Do you recall him mentioning, 25 in your last meeting with him on August 8th, EFTA00058818 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 that he was scheduled for another bail hearing? 2 : I don't recall. 3 : He didn't mention that? 4 Okay. 5 : I don't recall. He may have. 6 : Okay. 7 : He may have. I know he was 8 trying to get several hearings, so it is very 9 possible he did. 10 : So, what we have here is an 11 after-action review. It was conducted by the 12 Bureau of Prisons. 13 : Yes. 14 : And I'm going through some of 15 the noted -. 16 : Have you seen this? 17 : Hmm-mm. 18 : No. Okay. 19 : Basically, do you know what 20 an after-action review is? 21 : Yes. I do. 22 : Okay. So, this was done by 23 the team that was sent down to do on running 24 Mr. Epstein's death. And maybe the -- 25 : Immediately after their EFTA00058819 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 death. 2 : -- immediately after. 3 : Okay. 4 : There is a note. "On July 5 9th, 2019, at 12:35, health services completes 6 a history and physical for inmate Epstein. 7 This assessment was done in lieu of an intake 8 screening, which should have been conducted 9 within 24 hours of arrival." It looks like he 10 arrived on July 6th, but the intake screening 11 wasn't done for him. 12 : That's medical. 13 : That's medical. Okay. 14 : We did it the next day. We 15 do them within 24 hours. 16 : Okay. "On July 18th, 30-day 17 psychology reviews are conducted for the entire 18 SHU population. Inmate Epstein was not in the 19 SHU at the time due to an attorney visit. The 20 review was never conducted." 21 : He was probably seen in 22 attorney conference, but it wasn't conducted if 23 he wasn't in the SHU at the time. 24 : Should they have followed - 25 psychology - have followed up? EFTA00058820 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I would have to see my 2 records. 3 : Okay. 4 : To see if there was a reason, 5 or if we put in a note, subsequently. 6 : Understood. And you said, 7 the notification by the U.S. Marshal Service on 8 August 1st, you said that would be routine, if 9 he came off of suicide watch or psychological 10 observation, went to court, and they saw that, 11 they would normally make a routine 12 notification? 13 : They often do. Yes. 14 : Okay. 15 : Unless they are not privy to 16 it. You know? But if they are, they would, to 17 cover everything. 18 : But you don't know -- 19 : Yeah. 20 : -- anything specifically 21 he was doing on August 1st, that would have 22 caused them to make a note? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. 25 : Now, I don't have these EFTA00058821 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 documents in here, to show you, but it was 2 flagged that, "The psychology intake screening 3 contains errors in identifying details. Inmate 4 Epstein is referred to as a black inmate, and a 5 different inmate's name is used within the 6 report." 7 : Yes. One of the 8 psychologists made an error. Perhaps. It was 9 a template-ish error. I don't know. 10 : Okay. 11 : To be honest, it was probably 12 a template error. She was probably writing it 13 quickly, and when she proofread it, she didn't 14 catch it. 15 : Okay. "There -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- there are errors within 18 the risk of sexual abusiveness report, such as 19 referencing an inaccurate program statement, 20 and noting a history of prior prison sexual 21 predation." 22 : Okay. Again -- 23 : (Indiscernible *01:44:50)? 24 : -- again, that is a 25 checklist. It was probably a typo on the EFTA00058822 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 checklist. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : By the psychologist. It was 4 a seasoned psychologist. I don't read every 5 single note that goes into the record. The 6 only time I read every single note is when 7 somebody is a probationary psychologist, and 8 unlicensed. 9 : And who was -- 10 : Then I will -- 11 : -- the psychologist? 12 : -- the psychologist at the 13 time was Dr. 14 . Okay. 15 : And I just think they were 16 typos. Looking back and having a conversation 17 with her, they were typos, but she is a 18 seasoned psychologist, a forensic psychologist, 19 and I couldn't possibly read every note that 20 goes in the record. Or else I would never 21 sleep. But I read, you know, like I said, if 22 they are unlicensed, on probationary, then I 23 read all of the notes that go into the record. 24 : So, it is not that 25 didn't do the intake properly. EFTA00058823 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 It was just, it was a format that she probably 2 used. 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. Now 5 : Definitely. 6 : -- there is another incident, 7 "July 16th, 12:48 p.m., inmate Epstein is seen 8 by psychology in the presence of his attorneys, 9 while conducting a legal visit. This visit 10 recommended no follow up. This visit was at 11 the request of inmate Epstein, that was wholly 12 inappropriate. Inmate Epstein attempted to 13 establish guidelines for communication, and 14 bring his attorneys into the fray regarding 15 mental health treatment be provided by the 16 institution. 17 It is not typical for the Bureau of 18 Prisons to provide psychological intervention 19 in the presence of others, nor is it 20 appropriate for an agency psychologist to meet 21 with the inmate attorneys." The summary they 22 put on there is, "On July 16th, 2019, a 23 psychologist met with inmate Epstein in the 24 presence of his attorneys. This visit was done 25 at the request of inmate Epstein, that appears EFTA00058824 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 to have been the purpose of airing grievances 2 with conditions of confinement. 3 This is a highly abnormal event. It is 4 not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to 5 provide psychological intervention in the 6 presence of others, and agency psychologists 7 should not - should neither provide mental 8 health intervention in the presence of others, 9 nor engage legal representation regarding 10 institution operations or conditions of 11 confinement. 12 Although the specifics of what information 13 the psychologists are unknown, any items shared 14 could be viewed as an unauthorized release of 15 information, both regarding inmate Epstein's 16 mental health treatment, and institution 17 operational information." 18 : Okay. 19 : Can you elaborate -? 20 : What is your response to 21 that, I guess? 22 : I wasn't aware -- 23 : Do you agree with it, or 24 -? 25 : -- if one of my EFTA00058825 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 psychologists, or I went up one time, and I 2 think another one of my psychologists went up, 3 it was probably just to see that he was okay, 4 and that he didn't need anything from 5 psychology. So, the intention was to check on 6 him. It wasn't to breach any security, or it 7 wasn't to meet his demands, or anything like 8 that. It was probably because he did spend 9 eight hours up there, and it was more well 10 meaning that we just probably just wanted to 11 see if he had any needs from our department, at 12 that time. Or on that one occasion, he was up 13 there when that psychologist was conducting her 14 rounds in the suicide watch area, and he wasn't 15 there. And she went up there to check on his 16 mental status, to see if he was okay. 17 : Right. 18 : So -. 19 : And who would have that 20 one been? 21 : I think it was Dr. that 22 went up there on one occasion. And I think I 23 went up there on one occasion. That's when he 24 made that comment to me. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058826 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : But -. 2 : Now, so, what is your 3 : I did not share -- 4 do you agree -- 5 anything with his 6 attorneys. He stepped out of the room. Like, 7 the attorneys were sitting at the table. And 8 then, there is the door, and he walked up 9 towards the door. And I just said, you know, I 10 think when I went up there, you know, are you 11 okay? Have you been eating and sleeping okay? 12 I didn't discuss any intimate details of his 13 childhood, or anything like that. It was kind 14 of just, like, are you okay? 15 Do you have any thoughts of harming 16 yourself? Have you been eating and sleeping, 17 or do you have any concerns like that. And you 18 could see my notes, it would probably indicate 19 what I did ask him. It was well meaning. I 20 certainly didn't engage. I don't know. I 21 doubt Dr. did, because she is very rigid. 22 And any discourse with his attorney about 23 anything. I think his attorneys may have made 24 a comment to me, but I think I ignored it. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058827 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 : But yeah. 2 : So, you -. 3 : If that is what they are 4 referring to, you would have to re, you know, 5 show me the contacts, and the context. The 6 contacts, the actual site contacts that they 7 are referring to. 8 : Yeah, they don't 9 : Well. 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- they don't list it on 12 there. 13 : I mean, so - 14 : I mean, those are the only -- 15 : -- two -- 16 : -- two times that we went up 17 there, and that was more well meaning, to check 18 on his mental status. 19 : Sure. 20 It was certainly -. 21 : And not a discussion 22 : So, do you -- 23 with the attorneys. 24 Sorry. 25 : But as -- EFTA00058828 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 No. 2 : -- this is the BOP's 3 findings. This isn't on ours. We are just 4 saying -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- do you agree with that 7 finding, or do you think that that is 8 inaccurate, the way that they have that? They 9 are saying that you should not have done that? 10 : I would say it is 50/50. I 11 mean, now, in retrospect, if it could be 12 perceived that way, it is probably not the best 13 situation. However, circumstantially, this guy 14 was in the conference room from dawn until 15 dusk. And we felt a need to check on him, to 16 see if he was okay. So -- 17 : What 18 -- I would say we just 19 probably weren't aware that it wasn't a good 20 thing to do. 21 : Okay. 22 : We meant it to be -- 23 : Okay. So, and 24 a good thing. 25 : -- and this prior to his EFTA00058829 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 first suicide attempt, it looks like, on, it 2 says July 16th. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. 5 : So, that was probably just to 6 check on him due to our concerns. 7 : Sure. 8 : In reading that, I probably 9 would not do that ever again. Because it is 10 perceived that way. But we weren't aware that 11 that wouldn't - that that was an unusual 12 circumstance. 13 : Sure. 14 : It doesn't spring upon us 15 frequently. We don't have inmates that have 16 that kind of money to sit in there for nine 17 hours a day. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. 20 : You know? So, that has never 21 happened before. 22 : So, what, in retrospect, 23 I guess, what should have happened? Should 24 have you asked him to be excused, and seen him 25 a private room? EFTA00058830 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 : I guess we could have done 2 that, but that would have interfered with his, 3 and he is paying his attorneys. It is just, 4 would have to probably consult on that further. 5 : Has anyone -- 6 : Because -. 7 : -- spoken with you about 8 this? 9 : No. 10 : Okay. 11 : You just mentioned something. 12 You said it is highly unusual that somebody is 13 sitting in attorney conference for that long. 14 Is that not allowed for him? Was that not 15 allowed for any other inmates? Was he the only 16 inmate who was, that was allowed to? 17 : I think he was the only 18 inmate that had that kind of money. 19 : Yeah. It's -. 20 : Okay. 21 : To pay an attorney for nine 22 hours. 23 : Okay. 24 : To sit in a conference room. 25 You know, usually, they last about an hour. EFTA00058831 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 So, I had never seen that before in all my 2 years in the prisons. But it is not like you 3 can't do it. I guess if you have the money, 4 and the resources to have different attorneys 5 come, to cover your whole day 6 : Okay. 7 : -- then 8 : I just have one more topic, 9 and then it is done. 10 : Okay. 11 : So, were you aware that Mr. 12 Epstein was allowed to make an unmonitored 13 phone call on the evening of August 9th? 14 : No. 15 : So, on August 9th, it looks 16 like he, his pack and PIN was provided to him, 17 but it was never set up. So, he requested a 18 phone call, and it looks like the unit manager 19 took him to the SHU, brought back from attorney 20 conference, and placed him in the shower. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Plugged it into the legal 24 line. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058832 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 : And he said he wanted to talk 2 to his mother. So, the unit manager dialed out 3 the number. A guy answered the phone. He 4 handed the phone, the phone over to Mr. 5 Epstein. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And he left. So, Mr. Epstein 8 was allowed to make the phone call. It was not 9 monitored. And what do you think? Do you 10 think that should have ever been allowed? 11 : That is never allowed. That 12 is not allowed. 13 : Do you think that played any 14 part into what happened that night, being the 15 fact that he was allowed to make a phone call, 16 unmonitored, a phone call? Remember, he 17 mentioned that it was to his mother. 18 : Right. 19 : But we learned that his 20 mother has been deceased for a while. 21 : This isn't really for her 22 to answer. 23 : That, I don't know. 24 : So, as far as, this is 25 something that we skipped over in your EFTA00058833 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 interview report, though. It says, "On August 2 8th, 2019, attended the SHU meeting. 3 She couldn't recall all who was there. But 4 noted," - so, this talks about that meeting, 5 and it said that, "Epstein had received his 6 pack number, which allows him to make phone 7 calls, and he asked for his books from 8 psychological observation." So, are you aware 9 that he actually did receive his pack number? 10 Pack and PIN number, so he could actually make 11 calls? 12 : I probably was privy to it, 13 if it was mentioned in the SHU meeting. But 14 that wouldn't have any psychological meaning, 15 other than he could make the calls, and they 16 would bring the phone to his cell, which is 17 what they usually do, and he can make the phone 18 calls. 19 : So, you don't recall if 20 he was actually provided a pack and PIN number 21 or not? 22 : I don't recall. 23 : Okay. 24 : Because I don't set that up 25 or anything. It could have been mentioned in. EFTA00058834 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 the SHU meeting. But that doesn't directly 2 impact mental health services. 3 : Okay. 4 : So. 5 : So, and you don't know if 6 it was actually - not only was he given a pack 7 and PIN number - but you don't know if it was 8 actually set up or not? 9 : That, I don't know. 10 : Okay. Go ahead. 11 : And I don't know if it played 12 a role. 13 : Okay. 14 : You know, I don't know. 15 : That is the last two. 16 : Yeah. Go ahead. 17 : Okay. So, do you think Mr. 18 Epstein took his own life? 19 : Yes. I mean, it would be 20 highly unlikely that he didn't. I can say that 21 psychologists, the difficult thing is that we 22 are psychologists. We are not psychic. But 23 the events leading up to it, too, that period 24 of time, he appeared psychologically stable. 25 But the information that he received, according EFTA00058835 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 to what I heard the night before, and all of 2 that information being unsealed, and him being 3 alone with his thoughts, and thinking that 4 maybe, perhaps he would have to spend the rest 5 of his life in jail, and that all of these 6 high-profile individuals information was going 7 to come out about them. 8 Could he have, at that moment, just felt 9 completely hopeless, and thought of ending his 10 life? Yes. That is very possible. You know, 11 that is very possible. Prior to me leaving, he 12 wasn't given any of this information, and he 13 had a lot of hope, he had a lot of resources. 14 Perhaps he thought, you know, maybe he could 15 cooperate, or get some kind of a deal. I don't 16 know what happened at that meeting. But having 17 been in the prison system as long as I have 18 been, and being a psychologist, sometimes when 19 people get really bad news, and they feel very 20 hopeless, and the opportunity is there. 21 They will take that opportunity. So, yes. 22 It would be highly improbable, you know, the 23 way our prison is set up, that someone could 24 have snuck up there and harmed him, in some 25 way. The way that the tiers are and EFTA00058836 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 everything. So, I think the higher probability 2 is that he did kill himself. 3 : That leads to my second 4 question. The last question. 5 : Yeah. 6 : Do you have any reason to 7 believe that Epstein did not take his own life? 8 : I have no reason to believe 9 he didn't. 10 : Do you have any other follow 11 up questions? 12 : No. Is there anything 13 that we missed, that we should know? 14 : Not that I can think of. 15 Just that, you know, we -. No. Not really. 16 No. 17 : Okay. Great. We can't 18 thank you enough. 19 : Yeah. 20 : So, again, it took longer 21 than we expected, but you were extremely 22 helpful. 23 : Thank you. 24 is the case agent, 25 so if you have any questions or anything -- EFTA00058837 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 : Okay. 2 : -- you can go directly 3 with 4 : Thank you. 5 : Thank you for taking your 6 time. 7 : If there is anything else I 8 can do, or anything I can clarify, with regard 9 to the case, or if you want me to review some 10 notes, if anything wasn't clear, because like I 11 said, I probably, to be more specific, if I had 12 those notes, I would know when the Marshals 13 came in, because it is kind of a blur to me. 14 It has been a few years. It was probably the 15 most traumatic event in my entire career. 16 : Oh, wow. Yeah. 17 : You know? 18 : Sorry to hear that. 19 : So, yeah. 20 : Okay. Well, thank you so 21 much for that. 22 : Thank you. 23 : If anything comes up, or you 24 have anything that you want to share, please, 25 reach out. EFTA00058838 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 : Yes. Thank you. 2 : Okay. It is currently 3 11:18 a.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 4 This is Senior Special Agent 5 I am turning off the recorder. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00058839 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 7 8 Interview of 9 10 11 12 , Transcriber 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00058840