EFTA00117526

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 The recorder is on. 1 Thank you. 2 : My name is . I 2 : This interview will be 3 am a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 3 recorded by me, Special Agent 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 Could everyone please identify themselves for 5 York Field Office, and these are my 5 the record, and spell your last name? To 6 credentials. 6 start wain I am DO] OIG Special Agent, 7 Thank you. 7 . 8 : This interview with Federal 8 Senior Special Aient 9 Bureau of Prisons employee, Captain • 9 . 10 . Did I get that right? 10 And Ca•tain 11 . 11 . 12 '. . 12 : Thank you. This is an 13 Yes. 13 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 14 : Is being conducted as part of 14 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 15 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 15 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 16 of the Inspector General investigation. 16 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 17 Today's date is October 27th. The time is 17 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 18 11:25 a.m. This interview is being conducted 18 Yes. 19 at the OIG, New York Field Office, located on 19 : Okay. I'm going to provide 20 the 29th floor of One Battery Park Plaza, New 20 you with a form. OIG form III-226/2. It 21 York, New York. Also present is: 21 states, "United States Department of Justice, 22 DO]/OIG Senior Special 22 Office of the Inspector General Warnings and 23 Agent, . And these are my 23 Assurances to Employees Requested to Provide 24 credentials. 24 Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are 25 Thank you. 25 being asked to provide information as part of EFTA00117526 6 1 an investigation being conducted by the Office 1 And signature and rint? 2 of the Inspector General. This investigation 2 Yes. This is 3 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 3 I'm signing on the of the Special 4 General Act of 1978, as amended. 4 Agent. Agent , can you please sign 5 This investigation pertains to job 5 as a witness? 6 performance failure and security failure. This 6 Yes. I am signing as a 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 7 witness. Put my name, and I will enter the 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 8 date, ime and place. 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 9 1111111111: Thank you. Captain 10 not to answer questions. Any statements you 10 before starting the interview, I would like to 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 11 place you under oath. Can you please raise 12 criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary 12 your ri ht hand? 13 proceeding, or both." 13 Yeah. 14 The waiver section states, "I understand 14 : Do you swear to tell the 15 the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I 15 truth and nothing but the truth during this 16 am willing to make a statement and answer 16 interview? 17 questions. No promises or threats have been 17 Yes. 18 made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any 18 Thank you. You can put your 19 kind has been used against me." Please review 19 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 20 the form, and if you understand and agree, 20 understand any questions I ask, and I will try 21 please sign where it states, "Employee 21 to re eat it, or rephrase it for you. 22 Signature " and print your name below it. 22 Okay. 23 You said, so, print right 23 What is your current home 24 here? 24 address? 25 : Yeah. 25 7 8 1 1 : Okay. And was there a 2 2 concertation ou were following? 3 3 : No. 4 : Thank you. What is your date 4 : Okay. What did you do prior 5 of birth? S to workin for the BOP? 6 : . 6 : I worked for 7 Ma What is your social security 7 Corrections. 8 number? 8 And how long was that for? 9 10 ME 11 phone number? What is your current cell 9 10 11 : I started, it was about, I believe I started in 1993. And then, I left there in '98 and came to the BOP. 12 Area code is 12 : Okay. In '98, you came to 13 What is your highest level of 13 the BOP? 14 education? 14 : Yes. 15 Some college. 15 la Okay. Did you have any 16 17 . 18 colleiiiIIIIIIII 19 What is your college? : Just a couple of community 17 : Okay. 16 18 19 militar service? : No. : Okay. And have you been with the BOP since 1998? 20 : In my hometown. Back in 20 : Yes. 21 Indiana. 21 Okay. Do you remember your 22 : What was the name of the 22 exact enter on duty date? 23 colle e? 23 : April 26, 1998. 24 • (Phonetic Sp. 24 Mr Thank you. And what is your 25 *00:04:27) Business College. 25 current employment status? EFTA00117527 9 10 1 I'm sorry. I don't 1 : FCI III. 2 understand. 2 : As a deputy -- 3 What is your current 3 : Captain. 4 position with -- 4 : -- captain. 5 : Yeah. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 -- the BOP? 6 : What was your position at the 7 1: I'm a captain. I'm sorry. 7 MCC in 2019? 8 : At the FCI 8 : I was a lieutenant. 9 At IIIIIi- 9 ME A lieutenant. Okay. Was 10 10 that a nine or -? 11 -- yes. At FCI 11 . No. I was an 11. 12 I'm the com lex captain. 12 An 11. 13 Oka . And prior to being 13 . Mm-hmm. 14 captain at FCI , were you employed at 14 : Okay. And as a lieutenant at 15 the MCC? 15 the MCC what were your duties there? 16 Well, I was the deputy 16 That year, I was assigned as 17 captain at . Then I got the 17 the administrative lieutenant. So, my duties 18 institution captain, but prior to that, yes, I 18 consisted of making sure the staff and the 19 was em lo ed at MCC New York. 19 correctional services department got their 20 During what time period? 20 training. I did everybody's schedules. 21 : I started in -. I 21 Sometimes, I covered shifts. If the captain 22 transferred to MCC in April of 2013, and I left 22 wasn't there, I acted in his capacity. lust 23 in Seiiiiiiiiii19. 23 varioiiiiiiiiiiow, responsibilities. 24 : And what was, in September 24 : It was not in custody, it was 25 2019, you transferred over to -? 25 more, you said administrative? 11 12 1 Well, the administrative 1 and give those to the lieutenants, and then 2 lieutenant is part of the custody department, 2 they did whatever they needed to do with them. 3 because everything I did involved officers and 3 : Okay. And who reported to 4 lieutenants. 4 you directl ? 5 : Okay. And in terms, I know 5 : The officers reported to me. 6 there is an operations lieutenant. There is an 6 And that waspretty much it. 7 activities lieutenant. 7 : Which officers? 8 Mm-hmm. 8 : All of them, because I did 9 And where would you fall 9 all of their schedules. So, they came to me if 10 under? Like, do you work side by side with 10 they had an issue, or they needed time off, 11 them, or is there a separate department that 11 they had an issue with their schedule. They 12 you are -? 12 were out on workman's comp. Or, you know, 13 : Well, we worked on the same 13 anything dealing with leave time, or anything, 14 floor. But I don't do the same duties that 14 they came to me. 15 15 : Okay. And you mentioned that 16 Okay. 16 you would coordinate training for the 17 So, I would be there with 17 employees? 18 them, but they would be covering the shift. I 18 . Mm-hmm. 19 had nothing to do with the shift itself. You 19 What kind of trainings? 20 know, the trips that went out, or the work 20 The quarterly mandatory 21 assignments or whatever. I would do the work 21 trainings that we were required to do. Our 22 assignments prior to them actually working on 22 annual trainings that we were required to do. 23 that day. So, as the administrative 23 Regular annual refresher training. Firearms 24 lieutenant, my responsibility was to generate 24 training. I had to do all of - schedule all of 25 the daily rosters, and the quarterly rosters, 25 that. EFTA00117528 13 14 1 : Okay. And did you schedule 1 sat with the union, to determine which non- 2 all of that, the quarterly training, the annual 2 custody staff member went to what post, I would 3 refresher training, all that, in 2019? 3 keep that, I would have them bid on what they 4 : Yes. Mm-hmm. 4 wanted to work. And I would keep that MI! How is it documented if 5 documentation in the administrative office with 6 emplo ees received training? 6 me. As far as the quarterly training goes, 7 : So, which training are we 7 every quarter, any staff member who bid to work 8 talkin about? Just any, or -? 8 in SHU - in the Special Housing Unit, I'm 9 lust -- 9 sorry. 10 : Just -. 10 Any staff member that bid to work there, 11 -- specifically, we 11 they had to go through mandatory quarterly 12 talked about the SHU quarterly training, and 12 training. So, what I would do is, I would get 13 the annual refresher training. 13 with the SHU lieutenant to figure out a date. 14 : Okay. So, for the annual 14 It has to be completed before the new quarter 15 refresher training, Human Resources would 15 starts. And he would tell me whatever - he or 16 normally get with me. They would tell me the 16 she - would tell me whatever date they wanted 17 dates that they wanted to do annual refresher 17 to do it. Every staff member that was on the 18 training. And what I would do is go onto the 18 quarterly roster, that would be in SHU, was 19 roster program. They would let me know how 19 scheduled to attend that training. We would do 20 many staff to put in each day. I would go into 20 it in a classroom setting, for, like, a four- 21 the program. I would assign them, and then, I 21 hour block. And all I would do was schedule 22 would back fill their positions with a non- 22 the training, let the SHU lieutenant know, make 23 custody staff member. 23 sure he had the post orders, because all field 24 So, that was documented on every quarterly 24 office the staff who were going to be up there 25 roster. So, what I used to do was, because I 25 was supposed to go through the post orders, and 15 16 1 read them, and sign them. And he would the 1 Just anything dealing with SHU, period, that 2 training, and then just give me the sign in 2 lieutenant is supposed to go over it with them, 3 sheet for ever bod that attended. 3 as well as have them watch that slide show. 4 : Okay. 4 : So, are they allowed to work 5 : And prior to them actually 5 in the SHU without getting that training? 6 starting their rotation in the SHU, this 6 : Yes. However, they 7 trainin would have to be completed. 7 shouldn't because that training is documented. 8 Yes. 8 Every quarter, we have to send to the region 9 : All right. And it's a 9 that it was completed. And it also gets, I 10 mandator training? 10 believe it gets keyed into their training file 11 . Yes. 11 with Human Resources. 12 : And what topics does the 12 And who was required to 13 trainin cover? 13 ensure that the receive that training? 14 : We have a Special Housing 14 : The SHU lieutenant. 15 Unit slide down. That's the normal training. 15 Okay. And then, what 16 Mi l Yeah. 16 would your role be in that? Like, if someone 17 : But what the training should 17 didn't actually - someone would bid for that 18 cover, outside of them doing that slide show, 18 quarterly position, and actually wasn't able, 19 that SHU, normally the SHU lieutenant does the 19 for whatever reason, to attend the actual 20 training. Outside of that slide show, they 20 quarterly training, for the SHU, what is the 21 should be discussing with them how to operate 21 protocol? What should have taken place? 22 the SHU program. We have psychology come in 22 : So, if, just say for 23 and do a class on suicide prevention. Hunger 23 instance can I ive an example -- 24 strikes. They should be talking to them about 24 : Absolutely. 25 how to fill out the documentation for 292s. 25 : -- okay. So, just say for EFTA00117529 17 18 1 instance a staff member was out on a workman's 1 : So, the sign-in sheet would 2 comp. They had missed the SHU training for 2 have everybody that actually attended on the 3 that reason, or they were on annual leave. 3 scheduled day, and then the names of the people 4 When they come back to work, I would coordinate 4 who still needed to attend it. And once they 5 it with the SHU lieutenant, to have that person 5 do it, they are supposed to sign, and sign for 6 go over the training with them. And then, they 6 the date that the do it. 7 would come back and make sure that they sign 7 : Okay. 8 that they completed the training. And again, I 8 : So, my next question would 9 kept that stored in, on file in my office. In 9 have been, if any employee was not able to 10 the admin office. 10 attend training, was there a makeup training 11 : All right. So, it sounds 11 session involved? 12 like you were the one who kind of keeps records 12 : Yes. 13 of who has done it, and who has not. You then 13 And that would be not by you, 14 coordinate it with the SHU lieutenant, and say 14 that would be b the SHU lieutenant? 15 if this person needs to take it. And then, 15 : Yes. 16 after they take it, they are supposed to come 16 : Okay. And do they normally 17 to you and si n it? 17 get training? How long is the SHU training? 18 : No. Not -. After they take 18 How long does it normally take? The quarterly 19 it, I would give the SHU lieutenant the sign-in 19 trainin . 20 sheet. 20 : We usually schedule it for a 21 Okay. 21 four-hour block. 22 WBecause that person should 22 : For how many days? 23 sign for the date that they actually completed 23 : One. Just one day. 24 the trainin . 24 : So, one day, four hours? 25 : Okay. 25 : Mm-hmm. I would schedule 19 20 1 everyiiiiiiiiiihat one day, for four hours. 1 lieutenant ive them a training? 2 : And let's say if somebody 2 : Right away, if they are 3 missed it, and they came back, they would have 3 going to have them in SHU. I would -. I tried 4 to sit throw h that four hours? 4 my best - because I was the admin lieutenant 5 : Well, once I would tell the 5 there for a long time - so, I tried my best to 6 SHU lieutenant this person is back, you got to 6 keep up with that, to make sure, as soon as 7 make sure that they complete the training. I'm 7 this person came back, they did whatever they 8 not sure how he went about doing it with them. 8 needed to do. 9 Because I didn't attend the training. I never 9 I : Okay. 10 attended the training. I just scheduled it. 10 : But I can I -- 11 : Who schedules the trainers? 11 : Yeah. Sure. 12 Who picks the trainers and schedules them to 12 : -- say something? 13 teach the class? 13 : Yeah. 14 : Well, any lieutenant can 14 : Absolutely. 15 teach training for the Special Housing Unit. 15 : Because you had asked me, 16 During annual refresher training, every year 16 can a person work in the Special Housing Unit 17 when we do it, it's a lieutenant assigned to do 17 without the training, and like I said, yes, but 18 it. 18 they shouldn't. However, you had a lot of non- 19 : So, normally, it's a 19 custody staff who weren't required to take this 20 lieutenant. So, in this case, if a C.O. missed 20 training. Because they weren't in correctional 21 the training, they come back, the lieutenant 21 services. 22 can technical) give the full training? 22 But the quarterly bidded 23 : They can. 23 people -- 24 : Okay. And how soon after 24 : The quarterly bidded people 25 they come back from training should the 25 EFTA00117530 21 22 1 : -- were required. 1 : Once she came back, the SHU 2 : -- had to do it. 2 lieutenant would have gotten with her to get 3 : Right. 3 with her to have her take care of it, and have 4 : That was it. 4 her sign. 5 : Okay. 5 Okay. Go ahead. 6 : Yes. 6 Okay. Is this the mandatory 7 : Do you recall a C.O. by the 7 quarterly SHU training for 2019? 8 name of Tova Noel? 8 Yes. 9 : Yes. 9 The dates shows 6/6/2019? 10 Do you know if in that 10 Mm-hmm. 11 quarter that - this would be June, July, August 11 Is that the -? 12 of 2019 - if she was one of those C.O.s that 12 Yeah. I'm sorry. Yes. 13 bidded for the SHU? 13 Okay. And that is the sign- 14 : I don't remember. I think 14 in sheet? 15 she got a relief post in SHU, if I'm not 15 t Yes. 16 mistaken, and I do remember, she was out for a 16 : Okay. 17 while because she had injured, I don't know if 17 : So, on the sign-in sheet, 18 it was her ankle or something. She was out on 18 it shows different dates on it. Do you know 19 workman's comp. So, around that time, when we 19 what the would represent? 20 did the training, she wasn't there. 20 : So, as I said, the 21 : She wasn't there. 21 difference dates would be because, when we 22 : Hmm-mm. 22 actually had this training, these people 23 : Now -. 23 probably weren't here. So, once they came 24 : Whoa, whoa. So, what 24 back, they had to do the training, and sign 25 happened if she wasn't there? 25 that they completed it on the date that they 23 24 1 completed it. 1 injury, and I told her she had to do the 2 And for any of these 2 trains m ir 3 people, did you review the training with me, or 3 Okay. 4 was it always the SHU lieutenant that was 4 : But I didn't have her sign 5 supposed to review the training with them? 5 this. 6 : No. I never did the 6 : Do you remember her 7 training with them. It was always the SHU 7 saying -. So, she returned to work on or 8 lieutenant, or whoever was assigned to SHU at 8 around June 24th of 2021. 9 10 11 that time. So, with this sign-in sheet, would you, did you give that sign-in 9 10 11 n Mm-hrrim. : The SHU was her quarterly 12 sheet to the lieutenant to have them sign, or 12 2019. Sorry. 13 would you go to the employee themselves and 13 -- sorry. 2019. The SHU 14 have them si n it? 14 was her quarterly bidded post. And she says 15 : No. I gave this to the 15 that, on the 26th, is when she signed, that you 16 lieutenant. 16 came to her directly and said, you have to sign 17 : All right. So, in this 17 this, and she said she didn't get it from the 18 instance, we spoke with Tova Noel. She is 18 lieutenant. She got it directly from you. 19 claiming that you went directly to her with 19 Does that -- 20 this, and asked her to sign it. Do you recall 20 No. 21 that? 21 -- ring a bell at all? 22 MiNo. 22 No. 23 : No? 23 : All right. We just want 24 : No. I remember speaking to 24 to read you some quotes from her transcript. 25 her, and she returned back to work, from her 25 Just to see, you know, what your response is to EFTA00117531 25 26 1 this. We asked her, "Who was your direct 1 : I'm assuming. 2 su ervisor?" And she said, "Lieutenant 2 : Okay. 3 ." Would that be accurate? 3 : But once she returned to 4 No. 4 work, whoever that shift lieutenant was, would 5 : So, you didn't believe 5 be who she would deal with. 6 that ou were her direct supervisor? 6 : Okay. So then, we asked, 7 : Well, the operations 7 it says - and this is me speaking - "You 8 lieutenant on her shift, or the activities 8 mentioned you didn't remember ever going to 9 lieutenant on her shift was her direct 9 quarterly SHU training. This is a sign-in 10 supervisor. 10 sheet for quarterly SHU training. I just want 11 Okay. So, that changes 11 you to, is this your signature on there for 12 every day, but I guess if we had one specific 12 June 26th, 2019?" And she responds, "You see 13 that was a constant, would that be you? 13 how I'm the last one on the bottom of all of 14 : No. She was dealing with me 14 them?" I say, "Correct." She says, "Because I 15 while she was out on workman's comp, because 15 wasn't at the training when I came in," she 16 while she was out, I was the one getting her 16 responded. "Did they provide it to you one on 17 doctor's notes, and calling to check on her, or 17 one, though?" She said, "No." I said, "So, 18 if she had, like, a CA-7 that needed to be 18 how come?" She said, "Because when I came back 19 filled out, so she can keep getting paid, I had 19 from an injury, the lieutenant asked me to sign 20 to fill that out. 20 because when they had program review, they need 21 : Okay. So, while she was 21 to show that I received the training. But I 22 out, up until at least the 24th of - lune - 22 never did. She just asked me to sign." 23 2019, that's why she considered you her 23 "That's why I wonder why, who asked you to do 24 supervisor, because you were the one dealing 24 that?" I said. And she said, "Lieutenant 25 directly with her? 25 27 28 1 MMm-hrml. 1 I did explain to her that 2 : I said, "So, that 2 she needed to complete the training because we 3 supervisor you mentioned was your first line 3 had to have it done for our program review. 4 supervisor, asked you to sign without providing 4 However, I had her do that training with the 5 you the training?" She said, "Yes." I said, 5 SHU lieutenant. I would have never had her 6 "And she didn't, like, provide you anything to 6 sign something that she didn't review. And the 7 review?" She said, "No." And I said, "She 7 reason why her name is last on that list is 8 didn't go over anything with you?" She said, 8 because she came back to work at that time. 9 "No." I said, "Did you discuss this with her, 9 Okay. So -. 10 that how can you sign something without being 10 rid you ask her to sign the 11 provided the training?" 11 document for the program review, prior to the 12 She said, "Well, I just told her I wasn't 12 program review, without her actually taking the 13 here. I was out on an injury. She said she 13 trainin ? 14 knows, but she needed me to sign it because 14 : No. I explained to her that 15 they need it for a program review." I said, 15 she had to complete the training because when 16 "What's her first name?" And she responded, 16 we had our program review, they review these 17 ." I said, "And is she a 17 documents, and that is part of what they call 18 lieutenant?" And Noel said, "She's a - I don't 18 our working papers. And if one person has - or 19 know what she is now - but she is not at MCC 19 whoever - has it missed, we get a write-up for 20 anymore. She's at somewhere in Jersey." So, 20 that. 21 with all that being said, what is your response 21 : Did you speak with Lieutenant 22 to Ms. Noel with her statements to us? 22 IIII, and instruct him that, hey, listen, he 23 • Her statement is partially 23 needs to ive Tova Noel the training? 24 true. 24 : Yes. 25 Okay. 25 : And did he ever confirm with EFTA00117532 29 30 1 you that he did provide it to her? 1 not saying that what she said was accurate. 2 : No. I just got the sign-in 2 That's wh we're asking you -- 3 sheet back with her name signed. 3 Mm-hmm. 4 : Oh, so, you didn't give it to 4 -- to just clarify all of 5 her. You ave it to the lieutenant. And -- 5 this, of what exactly happened. 6 Yeah. 6 : No. The only conversation 7 -- the lieutenant got her to 7 that she and I had, and if I remember 8 sign in, and rovide it back to you? 8 correctly, it was on her first day back, if I 9 Yes. 9 am not mistaken. Her first day back to work, 10 : So, she is saying you 10 because she came to me to find out where she 11 came directly to her. She didn't_ggt any 11 was working. And when we had that 12 training from either Lieutenant IIII, who was 12 conversation, I did say to her that she had to 13 the SHU lieutenant at the time, or provided any 13 complete the training, you know, because we got 14 kind of sheets to review. She said - and we 14 to make sure we are in line with everything for 15 can go into reater detail of what she said -- 15 program review. But I never gave her anything 16 : Mm-hmm. 16 to si n. At all. 17 : -- but she said that you 17 : So, when she says you 18 didn't, when she said this to you, you said, I 18 specifically gave her this sign-in sheet, you 19 just need it for the program review, and you 19 are sa in ou did not? 20 asked her not to date it, and she said that she 20 : No. I did not. And I 21 intentionally wanted to date it, to show what 21 definitel didn't tell her not to date it. 22 date that she did this on. 22 : All right. So, when she 23 : That's not accurate at all. 23 says that, you know, let's go back and read it. 24 : Okay. So, please, 24 She specifically says, "Because when I came 25 explain to us. And just for the record, we are 25 back from an injury, the lieutenant asked me to 31 32 1 sign because when they had program review, they 1 that, after she did the training, she was going 2 need to show that I received the training, but 2 to have to sign the sheet. And I told her she 3 I never did. She just asked me to sign." So, 3 had to complete it because of program review. 4 her saying that you asked her to sign that, is 4 I did do that. 5 inaccurate? 5 Okay. Do you recognize - 6 : Yes, it is. 6 hold on - this stuff that we are giving you 7 : Okay. And are you 7 here. Can you just let us know what this 8 confident with that? Because this is, like, an 8 information is? And what the sign-in sheet is? 9 under oath. She was under oath, and you are 9 Okay. So, this is another 10 now under oath. So, now -- 10 sign-in sheet for training. This one would be 11 aMm-hrrim. 11 for the -. was the chief 12 : -- we have two 12 psychologist. So, that would be discussing 13 discre ancies of what happened. 13 suicide trainin. 14 : Yes. I am confident with 14 • Just -. 15 that. 15 This is -. 16 : Do you recall, 16 • So, that one was suicide 17 specifically? Can you place yourself back into 17 prevention training? 18 that conversation? Do you remember 18 This one was. Yes. 19 specificall this happening or not happening? 19 20 : I remember specifically 20 M I : Okay. This is , again, 21 speaking to her about it. And I told her she 21 but this is a different training. This was in 22 had to complete the training, but I did not 22 2018. 23 have her si n an thing. 23 : Okay. So, the one that 24 : Okay. 24 we are on top, though, that is the sign-in for, 25 : I didn't. I did tell her 25 it says June 6, 2019. And then, again, on the EFTA00117533 33 34 1 bottom, it sa s T. Noel. 1 Okay. So, if this was 2 Yes. 2 all completed, if the training was done on June 3 And then, does it have a 3 6, 2019 when you get the sign-in sheets? 4 date next to that one, too? 4 MEM: Whenever the SHU lieutenant 5 nJune 26. 5 brought them to me. Brought them back to me. 6 : Okay. So, that was also 6 : Okay. So, in this case, 7 the June 26, 2019. So, it looks like she had 7 do you believe it would have been some time 8 the quarterly, the quarterly post training, or 8 shortl after June 6, 2019? 9 quarterl , what do you call it -- 9 : Well, I don't remember that. 10 : SHU training. 10 But I do remember, because these other people 11 : SHU training. And 11 who weren't there, they had to do the exact 12 then, the suicide prevention training, both 12 same thing, and the SHU lieutenant got with all 13 signed on the same date. 13 of all them, and had them all do their 14 aMm-hTm. 14 training, and sign for their days. I didn't do 15 : Did you give that - 15 any of these eo le's. 16 either one of those - sign-in sheets directly 16 : Okay. So, and the fact 17 to Ms. Noel? 17 that, when was the - prior to T. Noel - when 18 Mi No. 18 was the last date on that? 19 : No. 19 • June, it looks the 23rd, and 20 : Because would 20 then, June 20th. 21 keep her own sheet. And also, the SHU 21 Okay. So, the two prior 22 lieutenant, who completed the training, that 22 were both in the 20s. And you don't believe 23 person would get a copy of this, as well. And 23 you went direct to either of those two, either? 24 then, when everything was completed, they would 24 MI.No. I didn't. 25 give me back the sign-in sheets. 25 : So, do you -- 35 36 1 I didn't. 1 these same forms. 2 : -- do you believe that 2 : Okay. So, on this 3 Lieutenant - would it have been Lieutenant 3 specific training, this is, these were the 4 that would have provided this to you, when it 4 statements that were made, I said, "So, there 5 was all done? 5 is another training that you - it says that you 6 : Yes. 6 conducted on also June 26th, 2019, for SHU 7 : Okay. So, he wouldn't 7 suicide prevention training. Did you also not 8 have provided that back to you until after June 8 receive that training?" Ms. Noel responded, 9 26, 2019 after Noel signed? 9 "Yeah. I didn't." I responded, "You did not 10 IIIIIIIIIII: No. Because at the time, if 10 receive that training?" She said, "No." I 11 I had this, then the last person before her was 11 said, "Did you receive -. 12 June 23rd. So, took care of all of these 12 So, there's slides in the back that show 13 people, and then, he gave it back to me. I 13 that the training, shows the training and how 14 can't remember if he just came back after the 14 they conducted it. Did they provide you with 15 6th, when everybody was done, and got it. Or 15 those slides?" And she responded, "No because 16 if he came back. Because I kept them in a 16 I wasn't there." I said, "You weren't there?" 17 binder. I keep all of these in a binder, in 17 And she responds, "I was out on injury." I 18 the admin lieutenant's office. So, all he had 18 said, "Okay. Can you - when were you out on 19 to do was just come get the binder. You see 19 injury? What were the dates?" And she 20 what I'm saying? So, he could have came and 20 responded, "From March 2019 to I came back in 21 got it, had them do whatever they needed to do. 21 June. So, when I came back in lune, that's 22 And the sheet would have already been in the 22 when I was told to sign this." Ltgain, is this 23 binder. And then, he keeps the copy from III 23 - you believe it's Lieutenant that 24 as well. They are supposed to keep a 24 actuall y told her to sign it? 25 binder in the SHU lieutenant's office, with 25 : It should have been. Yes. EFTA00117534 37 38 1 : Did you -- 1 happened?" Ms. Noel said, "Actually, she told 2 ies. 2 me not to date it. 3 -- but it was not you? 3 I remember when I was signing. She said, 4 No. 4 don't date it." And I said, "But you dated it 5 : And are you confident it 5 anyway? Did you have a conversation about 6 wasn't ou? 6 that?" And she said, "No." I said, "After you 7 To my recollection, yes. 7 dated it, she didn't say, why did you date it? 8 . Okay. Shortly there 8 Or anything like that?" She responded, "No." 9 later, I said, "But when you came back, was it 9 So, she is saying all of this time, that 10 around the 26th when they asked you to sign 10 specifically, that the lieutenant said to go 11 those?" And she responded, "I came back in 11 see you, and that you had her sign this 12 June. I don't recall the date exactly." I 12 information. 13 said, "Okay." She said, "But I remember the 13 : That is not true. 14 day I came back into work, and the lieutenant 14 : It's not accurate? 15 asked me to go see Lieutenant . And she 15 : No. It's not. And if the 16 asked me to sign, and I said, but I wasn't 16 lieutenant that was on shift would have told 17 here. I was out on injury. 17 her to come to see me, it was her first day 18 And she said she's aware, but they need me 18 back. So, when they returned to work for a 19 to sign for program review." I said, "Okay." 19 work-related injury, they are supposed to bring 20 She said, "So, I signed." And I said, "So, 20 in a note from the doctor, clearing them to be 21 both trainings, when you signed, they didn't 21 back at work. So, she would have came to see 22 actually ever provide you anything?" She said, 22 me, to give me a copy of that note. Because in 23 "No." I said, "Verbally? Electronically? 23 order for her to work, she had to have that 24 Nothing?" She said, "No." I said, "Okay. And 24 note from her doctor. 25 that was on the date that was signed that that 25 Okay. 39 40 1 That, and also, too, 1 "But did you do this per the direction of your 2 probably to find out about what her schedule 2 supervisor?" She said, "Supervisor, yes." And 3 would be, or where she is supposed to be 3 I said, "So, did she specifically say you must 4 working at. That's the only thing that I could 4 sign this?" Ms. Noel said, "Yes." And I said, 5 think of. But we did have the conversation 5 "Okay. And iiiiiiithat was ?" And Ms. 6 about the training. But at no time did I ask 6 Noel said, " ." So, she is claiming, 7 her to sin an thing. 7 under oath, under penalty of, you know, you 8 : Okay. So, what 8 know, of perjury, which is a criminal offense, 9 conversation did you have about the training? 9 which is - a ain - you are under oath. 10 : I just told her that she 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 needed to complete the training. Because part 11 That you specifically 12 of her post - if I remember right - it was a 12 told her to sign this. That's where I just 13 relief post. So, I don't think she was 13 wanted -. I don't want to trip up, because 14 assigned to SHU every day. 14 this right now is more of an administrative 15 : Now, did you maybe tell 15 thing. 16 her sign this training, sign this form, because 16 17 I have a program review up. Co do your 17 a 18 training. Don't date it because you didn't do 18 to a criminal. Mm-hrrim. : I don't want to bring it 19 the trainin et? 20 : No. I would have never told 20 21 her to sign it, because she hadn't completed 19 n Mm-hrrim. : If, you know, under oath, 21 under the penalties of perjury, which is 22 it. And I definitely would not have told her 22 statute 18 USC 1001, false statements, are you 23 not to date it. 23 confident that you did not ask her to sign 24 Okay. Because again, she 24 this? 25 is saying - and this is a question I asked - 25 Yes. I am. EFTA00117535 41 42 1 Okay. So, even though 2 she has her attorneys present when this is 3 happening, and she is specifically sa in 1 2 3 r Can you verif Okay. re those all SHU employees? 4 throughout all of these questions, 4 At the time -- S 5 -- at the time. • Yes. Because she dealt with 6 -- yes, they were. 7 me the whole time that she was out of work. 7 • All right. So, if we go 8 And again, like I said, I believe I got her to 8 and speak with Lieutenant IIII, do you believe 9 talk to her on her first day back to work. 9 he is oin to say, yes, I had her sign this? 10 11 W Mm-hmm. So, I do not, at no time, 12 ever recall telling her to sign anything, or 10 11 12 : I would hope so. Okay. But you are absolutely confident - under oath, again, you 13 not date anything. I do remember telling her 13 could be prosecuted if we find out you are 14 she had to complete this training, because she 14 lying - that this, you did not have her sign 15 was assigned to SHU. If you guys look at these 15 these documents? 16 other dates, for all these other people, and 16 : No. I did not have her sign 17 I'm just sayin 17 these. I do not recall having her sign these 18 Mm-hmm. 18 at all. 19 -- I know they don't have 19 Okay. 20 anything to do with it. They're all the same 20 At all. 21 just like hers. When they came back, the SHU 21 : And who do you believe 22 lieutenant got with them - and these are all 22 had her sin these? 23 different dates, same thing - to have them 23 : It should have been the SHU 24 complete this training. I didn't have them do 24 lieutenant. 25 it. 25 Okay. 43 44 1 : That took care of that. 1 to get their SHU training done, because all of 2 : And again, do you 2 these people were out on the 6th, when the 3 believe, it sounded like you said that the SHU 3 trainin occurred. 4 lieutenant could have come into your office, 4 : Okay. And you recall 5 retrieved these documents, and -- 5 specifically telling Ms. Noel, get the training 6 Well -- 6 done? 7 : -- had her sign it? 7 : I recall specifically 8 : -- the binder for the sign- 8 tellin her she had to do the training. 9 in sheets for the Special Housing Unit was in 9 : Okay. But you are 10 my office. Because I kept up with all of 10 positive you didn't have her sign those 11 these. I maintained all of these forms, just 11 documents? 12 to make sure that everybody stayed up on what 12 MiYes. 13 it was that they were supposed to do, because 13 : Okay. 14 when we have our program review, those 14 : As far as I can recall, yes, 15 documents would be reviewed in the office that 15 sir, I am ositive I didn't. 16 I worked in. We all were responsible for them. 16 : Okay. Great. So, I 17 It wasn't just me. My office was opened. 17 guess we'll have to revisit that with 18 Every lieutenant had a key to it. 18 Lieutenant IIII. Sorry. I hand it back to 19 • Mm-hmm. 19 you. I just figured it was better for me to 20 : And I am not at all saying 20 read it. 21 that would have come in my office and 21 Yeah. 22 taken some something that he shouldn't have 22 : Being that I was the one 23 taken, or whatever the case ma be. I remember 23 on this transcript. 24 having a conversation with to tell him, 24 : No problem. It looks like we 25 when these people come back to work, they need 25 covered some of them. So, just to clarify, who EFTA00117536 45 46 1 was responsible to make sure that all employees 1 lieutenant is responsible to make sure that 2 received the trainings? 2 they et the training? 3 : You mean for SHU? 3 : Yes. 4 : For the SHU. Who was 4 : Okay. 5 responsible to make sure that all the SHU 5 : And the administrative 6 employees received mandatory quarterly SHU 6 lieutenant. However, it's not written 7 trainin ? 7 anywhere. As the administrative lieutenant, 8 The SHU lieutenant. 8 that's just what I did. All administrative 9 : Okay. 9 lieutenants don't do that. Because SHU is SHU. 10 And me. And me. 10 It belongs to the SHU lieutenant. But because 11 : You. 11 we had gotten a bad rating on our previous 12 Because I scheduled it. 12 reviews, pretty much, they had me maintaining 13 : Okay. And if they are 13 all of our paperwork. So, I kept med trips. I 14 not - if those employees - are not there, when 14 kept rosters. I kept daily security 15 they come back, who is responsible to make sure 15 inspections. And whatever paperwork that had 16 that, hey, listen, it's taking - they receive 16 to do with correctional services, I was 17 the training? I know you mentioned that you 17 responsible for maintaining it. So, this was 18 make sure that they come back and sign the 18 something that I just maintained on my own, to 19 sheet. But who actually is supposed to give 19 make sure that it got done. So that, the 20 them the training? 20 department, as a whole, when the time came, 21 : Well, I didn't say that they 21 wouldiiiiiiiiiiitten up for it. 22 come back and sign the sheet. I said that, 22 : Is there a possibility that, 23 when they come back, they are supposed to 23 when Noel came back to work, you told her, hey, 24 complete the training, and then sign the sheet. 24 listen, sign off on the paperwork of the sign- 25 : Okay. So, and the SHU 25 in sheet, saying that you received the training 47 48 1 because you are back to work, sign off on it, 1 : No. Hmm-mm. 2 and have the SHU lieutenant provide you the 2 aA : nd being that -. 3 training? 3 : But when you spoke with 4 . No. 4 her about the need for her to take the 5 : Is it standard practice for 5 training, tell me a little bit more about that 6 employees to sign the sheet, even if they never 6 conversation. What did she say? 7 received the training? 7 : She just said, okay. Noel 8 No. It shouldn't be. I 8 really didn't talk -. Can I -? 9 don't have them do that. 9 Go ahead. 10 : Has there been instances, 10 • Okay. 11 that you are aware of, where an employee was 11 . Please. 12 signed the sheet, and that employee never 12 Oh, okay. 13 received the training? 13 You know, again, this is 14 Not that I am aware of. 14 15 This is the first incident 15 Noel really didn't talk a 16 you -? 16 lot. To any of us. You know what I'm saying? 17 Well, this is the first time 17 She would come to work, when she would come to 18 I'm even hearing about any of this, with her. 18 work. And she would do whatever it is that she 19 Because I knew she came back to work, and she 19 needed to do, but as far as my interactions 20 was su osed to have the training. 20 with her, it was really only during her times 21 : Do you know if she 21 of needing some time off, or scheduling. She 22 conducted the training or not? 22 may have needed to work a different shift, or 23 I have no idea. 23 whatever the case may be. So, we really never 24 : So, you are not even sure 24 actually had long conversations or anything 25 if she did or not? 25 like that. It was always business, like, as it EFTA00117537 49 50 1 should be. You know what I'm saying? 1 something happens, the officers get in trouble. 2 Supervisor to subordinate. And like I said, 2 And the problem is, it starts from the top. 3 when she came in that day, if I remember right, 3 Because if my supervisor is telling me to 4 it was her first day back. 4 falsify documents and I do it, I'm in trouble. : That you had a 5 But Lieutenant got promoted. You 6 conversation with her? 6 understand? Like, the problem starts from the 7 : Yeah. Because she would 7 top, and it comes all the way down." So, she 8 have had to give me that letter, saying that 8 maintained, throughout the entire interview - 9 she was cleared to be back at work. 9 this is now a e 449 of the interview -- 10 : But during that day, is 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 that when she signed these documents? 11 -- this was you. You 12 : I don't know. 12 specifically. So, if you are saying you 100 13 : Okay. 13 percent didn't do this, why would she say that 14 : I'm not sure if it was 14 you were the one? Does she have an axe to 15 during that day or not. I talked to her, and I 15 grind with ou? Is there something -. 16 told her she had to complete the SHU training. 16 : We had no problems with each 17 I do remember saying that to her. 17 other, that I'm aware of. But again, we 18 : Okay. Now, this is going 18 didn't, we didn't have regular interactions 19 to be the last part of the transcript that I 19 with each other. Because when she came to 20 read, where I said to Ms. Noel, "And what do 20 work, she was not on my shift. First of all. 21 you - now that you have experience this - what 21 When she was at work, she barely ever worked 22 do you blame that on? Do you also blame it on, 22 the day shift, if I remember. And I was at 23 like, poor management, or, like, the lack of 23 work during the day shift. If she had an issue 24 manpower? What are your thoughts on that?" 24 on the shift with anything, she wouldn't have 25 Ms. Noel responded, "It's both, but every time 25 come to me. 51 52 1 She would have went to the operations or 1 : -- the forms to sign. 2 the activities lieutenant. She was injured, if 2 -- right. That's what 3 I remember, I think it was her ankle, but I'm 3 I'm saying is, like, do you think, in her mind, 4 not sure what it was. But once she got 4 you said you needed to conduct the SHU training 5 injured, that's really more when our 5 and sign the form, or something to that effect. 6 interactions started with each other, because 6 Then she took it on herself to just go sign the 7 she was out of work for such a long time. But 7 form, without ever actually taking the 8 we didn't have any problems with each other 8 trainin ? 9 whatsoever. 9 : I couldn't answer that, sir. 10 So, why do you believe 10 I'm sorr . I don't know what she was thinking. 11 that she would have stated, with such clarity, 11 : Yeah. No. I mean, we 12 that you had her sign those documents, as 12 just have to -. So, if she is stating this, 13 opposed to Lieutenant IIII, who we discussed 13 and if we go to Lieutenant IIII, and he says, I 14 also, with re arding being the SHU lieutenant? 14 didn't have her sign it, I'm just trying - 15 : Probably because I was the 15 we're 'List we got to try to, you know -- 16 first person that spoke to her about it, and 16 : Because -- 17 when she came back to work. That would be the 17 -- as you know, with this 18 only thin that I can think of. 18 investigation, there are a ton of different 19 : Okay. Do you think she 19 elements. E 20 took it on herself to, then, sign it? After 20 Mm-hrmt. 21 the conversation with you, as opposed to you 21 : This is just one of many. 22 actuall h sically handing her the documents? 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : No. I didn't give her the - 23 : But we have to reconcile 24 24 them. 25 That's -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00117538 53 54 1 So, you know, all of this 1 training. Now, once she left my office and 2 will be written up in, like, a, you know, a 2 once she got up in SHU, and got with the SHU 3 report and all that. So, it's just one of 3 lieutenant, I don't know if the training was 4 those things that we have got to make sure that 4 ever completed. 5 we have, to the best of our ability, a 5 • Right. 6 reconciliation for each element, and this has 6 I wouldn't know that. 7 to do with a staff member not receiving the 7 • At -- 8 proper training, and also, according to her, 8 I wouldn't. 9 being instructed by her supervisor to 9 • -- at the time, though, 10 specifically sign when the supervisor knew that 10 on lune 26th, 2019, would have this sign-in 11 she didn't conduct the training. 11 sheet been in that folder that you referred to? 12 13 14 M Mm-hrra. : So, again, just, I do want to emphasize that this is under oath. So, 14 12 13 Yes. It would have been in that binder that I had. It should have been, anywa because -- 15 this would be, like, if you were in a court of 15 All right. 16 law. 16 -- again, once the SHU 17 18 19 a: tn-hani. with our statements. That you are confident 17 18 19 lieutenant completed the training, and got both of the sheets back from the chief psychologist, then they would bring me the sheets, and then I 20 : Mm-hmm. Yes. I don't - 20 would put them in the binder. So, these other 21 like I said - I don't recall having her sign 21 people that did their training, he had them 22 anythiiIIIIIIIIIII 22 sign off the sheet that we already have from 23 Okay. 23 the 6th. And then, he knew where the binder 24 : Because I wouldn't have done 24 was. And again, I'm not saying that he did 25 that. I told her she had to complete the 25 anything at all. IIII, I'm saying. But I kept 55 56 1 these forms, and I had them in the binder. And 1 I don't know. I do not 2 I do not, at no time, remember telling her to 2 know. And to be honest with you, if she spoke 3 sign anything that she didn't do the training 3 to about it, and whatever transpired 4 for. 4 between the two of them, as far as the training 5 : And did she, would she 5 is concerned, I don't know. But she did sign 6 have had the ability to - sorry, the ability - 6 that form on her own, and she wasn't forced to 7 to obtain those sign-in sheets from your binder 7 do it, and I didn't threaten her with program 8 8 review. I did explain to her that everybody 9 t o. 9 that was in SHU had to complete that training, 10 : -- and sent them herself? 10 so that we wouldn't get written up for program 11 : No. 11 review. 12 : No. She couldn't have 12 And when you had that 13 done that? 13 conversation with her, were either the binder, 14 No. 14 were those sheets on your desk? 15 . So, either yourself or 15 No. Not that I -. No. Not 16 Lieutenant would have had to have actually 16 that I remember. 17 obtained those sheets, and asked her to sign? 17 Okay. So, it wasn't, 18 Yes. 18 like, you know, this sheet, this sign-in sheet 19 : So, one of the two of you 19 is here, and you were just having this 20 had to have actually had her sign those forms? 20 conversation, like, you know, not telling her 21 Yes. 21 sign here, date here, but saying, like, you 22 : And that just goes back 22 need to complete this training, and it would be 23 to the confusion of, why would she specifically 23 sittin ri ht there for her to sign? 24 say you, and - again, throughout - with such 24 : No. I would have told 25 clarity, as opposed to Lieutenant.? 25 she's back, she got to do the SHU training. EFTA00117539 57 58 1 Okay. And did she sign 1 adding to it. They got to do the slide show. 2 either of these training documents that are on 2 And they're supposed to do the suicide 3 the table in our presence? 3 prevention training. And site does the suicide 4 : No. Not that I -. No. Not 4 prevention training. 5 that I recall, she didn't. No. 5 : Now, the slide show, would he 6 : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. 6 have manually handed it to her, or is that 7 ro problem. Now, this 7 somethin he would have emailed her? 8 trainin takes about four hours? 8 : He wouldn't have to email 9 : It's set up for four hours. 9 that to her. She can log in and on her own. 10 It doesn't have to be four hours. Maybe the 10 It's in the - well, at the time, it was, it's 11 SHU lieutenant can go over everything with him, 11 called Blue (Phonetic Sp. *00:46:13) now. The 12 and then, they will go up to SHU, do shake 12 training site for the courses. But I'm not 13 downs, or whatever. But it's set for a four- 13 sure, then, if they were using Blue. I think 14 hour block, and that's in case somebody comes 14 it was just in the G-drive for annual training. 15 in lati2/2±,2tever. 15 Saved in the computer, on the - for annual 16 IIIIIIIIII: But you should at least take 16 trainin 17 two hours, three hours, to go over all the 17 : On, like, the shared drive? 18 material? 18 : Yes. They had an annual 19 : Well, not necessarily. 19 training folder that had, you know, everything, 20 Because if she - and I'm sorry, I said - if she 20 all of the slide shows and stuff in it. So, 21 was coming back to work, he could have just had 21 the people who would have come back to work, 22 her review the slide show. You know what I'm 22 they should have reviewed that, at least, and 23 saying? Everything else, the only thing that 23 that would have sufficed for them having the 24 is actually required that they do is the slide 24 trainiiiiiiiiii 25 show. Everything else is kind of just us 25 : So, that was going to be my 59 60 1 next set of questions. I mean, there is one, 1 I don't know. I couldn't -- 2 two, three, four, five, six people that came 2 : Okay. 3 back. And if the lieutenant had to sit down 3 -- answer for what he did. 4 with them that's quite a bit of them. 4 1. : But that's not something you 5 6 Il : Mm-hmm. : That he would have to spend l 7 doing the trainings all over again. 5 6 7 would instruct them? That would be Lieutenant : Yeah. I don't -. I don't 8 do it at all. I don't do the training for 8 9 EMI Mm-hmm. :i Is there a possibility he 10 would have said, hey, listen, I'll do it for 9 them. 10 Okay. 11 all the employees, together, when they come 11 : And who was actually -. 12 back, andlust ushed off to training? 12 So, you said both of you, though, are 13 : I couldn't -. I don't think 13 responsible to ensure that the training was 14 so. 14 conducted? 15 16 17 r No, I would say -- 15 : Well, it depends, as far as r he would have just handed 16 I am concerned, I only was responsible for it 17 because I just made sure it got done. The 18 -- no, it's, they dated 18 person who is supposed to make sure it gets 19 it on the date they are saying that they did 19 done is the SHU lieutenant. 20 the till. 21 : Unless they were instructed, 21 20 =1 Mm-hmm. Who, and that changes 22 hey, sign off on the aprwork, and -. Or do 22 quarterly. So, whoever that lieutenant is, or 23 you think Lieutenant actually just sent 23 whoever that lieutenant was, that is who would 24 them an email, or told them go on the shared 24 be res onsible for doing the training. 25 drive, pull up the slides, and just read it. 25 : Okay. EFTA00117540 61 62 1 : Based on your education 1 work up there, just as a regular workday 2 experience, is there anything wrong with 2 sometimes, before she went out on her injury. 3 employees signing documents, stating they have 3 Or sometimes, overtime. So, that wasn't her 4 received training when they have not? 4 first time working in SHU. 5 : Yeah. They shouldn't do 5 : But her first bid for the 6 that. That's lying. 6 SHU, was that a bid for the SHU? Like, where 7 : lust, is there anything that 7 she -. I know she did overtime, and she did, 8 could go wrong? Like, let's say they didn't 8 she was assigned. But was she actually 9 receive training, they go in and they are 9 assigned to the SHU, prior to this, based on 10 supposed to do their duties as certain way, and 10 your knowled e? 11 they don't do it. Would the training - based 11 : I don't remember. Because 12 on your training and experience, education -- 12 if I can remember when she started, I could 13 Mm-hmm. 13 probably be able to answer that, but I don't 14 -- experience. 14 remember when she started. I don't. 15 Mm-hmm. 15 : Now, on these two 16 : What could go wrong? If they 16 trainings - the mandatory quarterly SHU 17 go -. Like, Noel, that was her first time in 17 training and the suicide prevention training - 18 the SHU? 18 are those trainings also covered in the annual 19 No. 19 refresher training? 20 She had it previously? 20 : They're separate. 21 . : She worked up there because 21 : But what I mean is, so, 22 she would work overtime sometimes up there. 22 this is, it looks like these are separate, but 23 People who work over, like I said before, 23 are those topics also covered in annual 24 everybody doesn't get it. It's only the people 24 refresher training? 25 who are assigned to be up there. And she would 25 : Yes. They are. 63 64 1 So, regardless, if she 1 : Does that sound right? 2 did these specific trainings, would have she 2 IMIYeah. Around February or 3 had at least taken those trainings during 3 March. Yeah. 4 annual refresher training? 4 : Okay. 5 : Yes. 5 ...But again, I don't remember 6 : Okay. So, at least in 6 when she went out on her injury. 7 2019, these trainings would have been conducted 7 : The interview said she was 8 by Ms. Noel? 8 off in March. The end of March to June. 9 : Yes. They should have been. 9 : Yeah. I'm not sure about 10 : You know, not these 10 it. I'm pretty sure she - you know that she 11 specific ones, but she has already said she 11 took the annual refresher training. So, just 12 didn't take those trainings. 12 point being, she should have at least been 13 13 trained on SHU training, as well as suicide 14 : But she did take annual 14 prevention? 15 refresher training. So, she would have at 15 : Yes. 16 least received the trainings that were 16 : Okay. And if someone 17 discussed durin those two trainings? 17 doesn't, is out during the annual refresher 18 : Yes. Annual refresher 18 trainin what happens in those instances? 19 trainin is at the beginning of the year. 19 : When they come back to work, 20 : Okay. *00:50:03) 20 they have videos sometimes, and they will video 21 : Every year. And I don't 21 the training for people that missed, or we have 22 remember when she went out on her injury. 22 makeup days for, if she comes back within that 23 : In this case, the annual 23 meet of the makeup time, then she will do it 24 refresher training was around March. 24 then, along with other staff members, who may 25 Okay. 25 have missed it, or sometimes, if it's just one EFTA00117541 65 66 1 or two people, and there wasn't a video for 1 So, I don't remember if she went or not. 2 them to watch, then HR will shoot them an email 2 Because again, like I said, I don't remember 3 and let them know they got to go on, and log- 3 when she went out. 4 in, and take a look at the slide shows or 4 And it sounds like you 5 whatever the case may be. 5 did remember her not -. You did remember her 6 : Okay. Now, in this 6 needing to do this, though. So, what would 7 instance, it says, do you remember having a 7 make you remember that versus an annual 8 conversations with Ms. Noel regarding these 8 refresher? 9 trainings? Do you know she needed to do annual 9 : No. I don't remember when 10 refresher training, or if she took it that 10 she went to annual refresher, or if she did. 11 year? 11 Because this happened when she returned to work 12 : I don't remember because I 12 from her in 'ur • 13 don't remember, like, what you guys are saying, 13 Mm-hmm. 14 she went out around March -- 14 : So, annual refresher 15 16 17 1.11 most of the time -- Yeah. -- I don't know, because 15 training would have happened way, a while 16 before that. 17 So, I guess my point 18 (Indiscernible *00:51:29) 18 being is, like, you were aware of when she came 19 her. 19 back from her injury, that she had to do these. 20 -- we would start annual 20 So, if she had missed the annual refresher, 21 training in, like, February, like, the end of 21 would you have also been aware that she needed 22 January, around February. But I don't 22 to do the annual refresher training? 23 remember. She would have been scheduled for it 23 : Right. But that part of it 24 on the daily rosters. On the quarterly 24 wouldn't have been me. That would have been HR 25 rosters. Not quarterly. The daily rosters. 25 that would have got with her. Because HR is 67 68 1 responsible for annual, making sure that 1 How do you ensure that 2 everybody completes it. I'm responsible for 2 they si n for it? 3 schedulin ever body to go. 3 : The SHU lieutenant has them 4 : Okay. But in this 4 sign for it. When they do this training, I'm 5 instance, under these, you are responsible for 5 not there. He has the sign-in sheets, and he 6 making sure that they complete the quarterly 6 has them sign in that they completed the 7 SHU training and the suicide prevention? 7 training on the day that they do the training. 8 : The SHU lieutenant is 8 Mm-hmm. 9 responsible. All I do is schedule it. 9 I just stored the sheets. 10 Right. But I guess, why 10 Okay. 11 would it have then, if he's responsible, why 11 In my office. 12 would have you had to have that conversation 12 And can you recall any 13 with Ms. Noel, and she got to make sure that 13 instance where you actually retrieved the sheet 14 she does that SHU training? 14 and had an employee sign, that they did 15 : Because when we would 15 training? 16 schedule the training, when people would be 16 : No. 17 out, as they trickle back in, we have to be 17 No? So, that's just not 18 cognizant, and make sure that they took the 18 somethin ou would do? 19 training, and signed for it. Because all of 19 : No. Because the SHU 20 them had to do because it they were signed for 20 lieutenant was res onsible for that. 21 it on the uarterl roster. 21 Okay. So -. 22 : Okay. So, that just goes 22 : I just kept up with when 23 back to when you said not only take it, but 23 they came back to work. You know what I'm 24 also si n for it. 24 saying? And on the time that they came back to 25 : Mm-hmm. 25 work, if they, if it was something that they EFTA00117542 69 70 1 were missing or whatever, even for, like, 1 not a trainer. They have -. And even during 2 firearms training, it's the same thing. When 2 annual refresher training - excuse me - they 3 they come back, I will coordinate it with Human 3 have people that come from different 4 Resources, to get them out to the range, so 4 departments, that train, you know, on different 5 that the can o in SHU. 5 subjects. And then, they have backup people 6 : Okay. But you would 6 for those eo le. 7 never have them sign that they did it? 7 : So, not -. Should there be a 8 No. 8 situation where we talk to a C.O. and the C.O. 9 : That's for any training? 9 says, yeah, I went to that, I went there, I 10 : Any training. 10 signed in, I sat there, but no one was ever 11 : Okay. 11 there to teach us the class, or no one is ever 12 : Have there been situations 12 there to - sometimes wasn't there to actually 13 where training was not -. Was to be -. Sorry. 13 conduct the training, so they never received 14 I will repeat that. Have there been situations 14 the trainin . 15 where training was to be provided for 15 : That shouldn't be an 16 employees, however, there were no trainers, and 16 instance. No. 17 an employee never received the training they 17 : Would that be something that 18 were su osed to? 18 you would be made aware of, if someone -? 19 Not that I am aware of. 19 Let's say you scheduled a trainer to come in 20 : So, there is always trainers 20 and teach the class. Would you be aware if the 21 available? 21 trainer never showed up, or whether there was a 22 Every lieutenant is an 22 conflict -- 23 instructor, for what, you know, different 23 : Yes. 24 things involving correctional services. So, 24 -- who would be responsible 25 there would never be an instance where there is 25 to schedule another trainer? 71 72 1 Well, Human Resources would. 1 trainin ? Because I'm going to jump -- 2 If it was annual training, Human Resources 2 : Yeah. Please do. 3 would be responsible for scheduling another 3 : -- okay. Did you have any 4 trainer to come in. Just like when we have new 4 interactions with inmate Jeffrey Epstein during 5 classes that start, Human Resources does the 5 his time at the MCC? 6 agenda, the training courses, and they outline 6 : No. 7 who is going to teach what, on what day, what 7 ME Were you working during the 8 block, what time, and they send that out to us, 8 incident between Epstein and inmate Tartaglione 9 to all of the instructors, to make sure that we 9 on Jul 23rd, 2019? 10 are there. As far as SHU training is 10 : The -. 11 concerned, we wouldn't schedule SHU training if 11 : Do you know who Tartaglione 12 there wasn't a SHU lieutenant available to do 12 is? 13 the SHU training. So -- 13 : That was his roommate in 14 Okay. 14 SHU. No. I wasn't. No. Because I normally 15 : we coordinate it with the 15 work the day shift, and I believe that incident 16 SHU lieutenant, to say, okay, the quarter is 16 in the evening, or the midnight shift, or 17 going to start on this day, what day do you 17 sometiiiiiiiiii 18 want me to schedule your training? That's what 18 : Okay. What was your 19 I would do, so that that person knew that they 19 understanding about Epstein being required to 20 would be there to conduct the training. 20 be housed with a cellmate? Did you know that 21 : And you have never heard of 21 he was re uired to be housed with a cellmate? 22 trainers never showing up, or people actually 22 : When he came off of watch - 23 not receivin the training? 23 suicide watch - the first, that first time 24 : No. 24 then psychology, I believe it was IIIIIIIII, if 25 : Okay. Anything else on the 25 I remember right, she - they will send us out EFTA00117543 73 74 1 an email to let us know this inmate is coning 1 : I'm sorry. 2 off watch, he needs to be celled with a 3 cellmate. 4 : And your understanding is, 5 Mr. E stein had to be celled with a cellmate? 2 3 4 5 r I'm sorry to hear that. And I saw it on TV. That's how I was - I was in his hospital room with him, and I saw it on TV - that's how I found 6 : Yes. Now, if it changed, 6 out. 7 because that was my understanding when he first 7 : So, you weren't there August 8 came off of watch, and if I'm not mistaken, I 8 9th and 10th? 9 think it may have been in July, I think it was, 9 No. 10 I'm not sure, when he came off of watch that 10 Okay. Do you think Epstein 11 first time. But she said he needed to have a 11 took his own life? 12 Bunkie that - I'm sorry, a roommate - then. 12 a : Yes, I do. 13 Now, after that, I have no idea if that 13 : Why? 14 changed. 14 : Do you have any reason to 15 : Do you know who was chosen to 15 believe that he didn't take his own life? 16 be his cellmate? 16 : That he didn't take his own 17 18 Mr No. I do not. Okay. Anything? Were you 19 workin on Au ust 9th and 10th, 2019? 17 18 19 life? Yeah. No, I don't. 20 : I don't -. Was that the day 20 IIE : Okay. Do you have -. 21 of his suicide? 21 Are you comfortable with all the answers that 22 : August 10th was when they 22 you provided today? 23 found him. 23 IIIM.Yes, I am. 24 : Okay. I was in— My 24 : Is there anything you 25 dad had had a stroke. 25 would like to revise while we are still on the 75 76 1 record? 1 This is the slide show I was 2 lallo. 2 talkin about. 3 : Okay. 3 : Okay. So, is this 4 No, sir. 4 suicide, the suicide training, and this one is 5 : Is there anything you 5 the SHU quarterly training? 6 would like to add that we haven't discussed? 6 Yeah. 7 No, sir. 7 • Okay. So, if you can 8 : Is there anything else 8 just keep with each other. 9 that you wanted before? 9 Okay. 10 : No. lust ask -- 10 • And then, yeah, just sign 11 Oh. 11 the sign-in sheets on the top, if you don't 12 -- these documents, because 12 mind. 13 we showed them to you, you are not testing 13 14 what's on it, you are just contesting that 14 : Or initial and date. 15 these are the documents we showed. Can you 15 -- initial and today's date 16 initial and put today's date on it? On the top 16 is the 27th. 17 17 So, 10/27/2021. And 18 You need -- 18 again, that's just to -. Like, we have to 19 -- of each document. 19 attach it to the record, saying that these are 20 IIE : Yeah. The top would be 20 the actual sheets that we reviewed. And if you 21 great. 21 don't mind -- 22 These two? 22 E : These two? 23 : No. Well, not this first 23 -- I guess -- 24 one, but I think this -. So, some of these can 24 : Those two, yeah. 25 - or some of these, do they go with this? 25 -- yeah. EFTA00117544 77 78 1 Okay. 1 you so much. It is currently 12:25 p.m., on : Training, and the slide 2 Wednesday, October 27th 2021. This is Senior 3 shows. But those slide shows are for each 3 Special Agent , and I am 4 respective training? 4 turning off the recorder. 5 : Oh, this is suicide 5 6 prevention for S ecial Housing Unit. 6 7 : Right. So that would be 7 8 this one. Correct? With on the 8 9 top. 9 10 This is the same thing. 10 11 It's just a different -. No, it's not. It's 11 12 just a different -. This is a different 12 13 version of this. 13 14 : Okay. So, they are both 14 15 suicide prevention. Neither of them are the 15 16 quarterl SHU trainings? 16 17 No. 17 18 . Okay. Great. 18 19 : This one is the first 19 20 No. None of -- 20 21 -- after that. 21 22 Okay. 22 23 -- neither one of these is 23 24 the uarterl SHU training. 24 25 : Okay. Perfect. Thank 25 79 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00117545