1
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3
4 DIGITALLY RECORDED
5 SWORN STATEMENT
6 OF
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9 OIG CASE #:
10 2019-010614
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18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
20 SEPTEMBER 22, 2021
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RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
Phone:
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
4 BY:
5 BY:
6
7
8 WITNESS:
9
10
11
12 OTHER APPEARANCES:
13 NONE
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EFTA00118868
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1 MR. : This is Special Agent •
2 It's September 22nd. The time is
3 approximately 12:50 p.m.
4 MR. : 2021.
5 MR. : 2021. My name is
6 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S.
7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector
8 General, New York Field Office, and these are
9 my credentials.
10 MR. : Okay.
11 MR. : This interview with unit
12 manager, , is being conducted
13 as part of an official U.S. Department of
14 Justice, Office of the Inspector General
15 investigation. Again, today's date is
16 September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m.
17 This interview is being conducted at the
18 Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, New
19 York. Also present is DOJ/OIG Senior Special
20 Agent, . This interview will
21 be recorded by me, Special Agent
22 Could everyone please identify themselves for
23 the record, and spell your last name? To
24 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent?
25
EFTA00118869
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1 MR. : Senior Special Agent
2 with the U.S. DOJ/OIG.
And these are my credentials.
4 MR. My name is
5 . Last name, . I'm a unit
6 manager at with. MCC, TDY'd here, temporarily.
7 MR. : Okay. Thank you for
8 clarifying that.
9 MR. : At MDC Brooklyn.
10 MR. : Thank you. This is an
11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death
12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding
13 circumstances. And you are being asked to
14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions.
15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with
16 the DOJ/OIG?
17 MR. : Yes.
18 MR. : Thank you.
19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form
20 111-226/2. The form states, The United States
21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector
22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employees
23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary
24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide
25 information as part of an investigation being
EFTA00118870
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1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector
2 General. This investigation is being conducted
3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978,
4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job
5 performance failure and security failure."
6 MR. : And just so you're aware,
7 that's what we're writing on everybody that we
8 interview.
9 MR. : Okay. That's fine.
10 MR. : Okay.
11 MR. : No problem.
12 MR. "This is a voluntary
13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to
14 answer any questions. No disciplinary action
15 will be taken against you if you choose not to
16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish
17 may be used as evidence in any future crimina:
18 proceedings, or agency disciplinary
19 proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I
20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated
21 above and I am willing to make a statement and
22 answer questions. No promises or threats have
23 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of
24 any kind has been used against me." Please
25 read the form, review the form. If you
EFTA00118871
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1 understand, please print your name and sign on
2 the right side. That's over here. That will
3 be your signature. Print your name right below
4 that. Yeah. This is Special Agent
5 , I'm signing as a signature of the
6 Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent.
7 MR. : And you understand, this
8 is a voluntary interview, you don't have to
9 answer our questions. You can stop it at any
10 time. Correct?
11 MR. : Yes.
12 MR. : Perfect. Thank you.
13 MR. : The time is 12:54 p.m. As
14 Senior Special Agent, can you sign as a
15 witness, please?
16 MR. : Sure.
17 MR. • Thank you, sir.
18 MR. : Yes.
19 MR. : This is Senior Special
20 Agent I'm signing as the
21 witness. Okay.
22 MR. : My phone is in there.
23 MR. : Oh. There you go.
24 MR. : Thank you. Before starting
25 the interview, I would like to place you under
EFTA00118872
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1 oath. Mr. can you please raise your
2 right hand?
3 MR. : Mm-hmm.
4 MR. : Do you swear to tell the
5 truth and nothing but the truth during this
6 interview?
7 MR. : I do.
8 MR. : Thank you. You can put your
9 hand down. Please let me know if you do not
10 understand any questions, and I'll try to
11 repeat it, or rephrase it for you. What is
12 your current home address?
13 MR. : My current home address is
14 . Brooklyn, New
15 York. Apartment . 11209.
16 MR. : 11209. You showed me your
17 credentials. Can you show that to me one more
18 time?
19 MR. : Yeah.
20 MR. : Mr. is showing me his
21 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of
22 Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states
23 , Unit Manager, MCC New York
24 on it. Thank you for that.
25 MR. : Yup.
EFTA00118873
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1 MR. : What is your current cell
2 phone number?
3 MR. : My current cell phone number
4 is
5 MR. • : What is your highest level of
6 education?
7 MR. : High school and some
8 college.
9 MR. : What college?
10 MR. : I went to, I studied at a
11 Lincoln Technical Institute, and received a
12 certificate there for HVAC, Heating and
13 Plumbing.
14 MR. : Is that in New York?
15 MR. : That's in Lincoln Tech, as
16 in Union.
17 MR. : Union. Okay.
18 MR. : Union, New Jersey.
19 MR. : I understand. Do you have
20 any military service?
21 MR. : Yes, I do.
22 MR. : What?
23 MR. : Four One years-ae Army, four
24 years active, and three years, nine months
25 National Guard.
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1 MR. : Are you currently still in
2 the military, or
3 MR. : No.
4 MR. : -- are you discharged?
5 MR. : Discharged.
6 MR. : Honorable?
7 MR. : Honorable discharge.
8 MR. : And what grade?
9 MR. : E-4.
10 MR. : Thank you for that. Thank
11 you for your service. And what was the enter
12 duty date with the BOP?
13 MR. : March 6, 1994.
14 MR. : And when did you graduate
15 from BOP training?
16 MR. : Hmm.
17 MR. : If you don't remember.
18 year?
19 MR. : Yeah. It was - yeah - 1
20 don't remember.
21 MR. : So, 1994. Around then.
22 MR. : I went in 1994. So, I had
23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after '94.
24 So, right around '94. Some time.
25 MR. : And you mentioned that you're
EFTA00118875
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1 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the
2 MDC program.
3 MR. : That is correct.
4 MR. : And you were TDY from MCC?
5 MR. : That is correct.
6 MR. : When did you start at the
7 MCC?
8 MR. : I came here, I want to say,
9 around a month and a half ago because they're
10 remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they
11 sent me over here, and there was a -. They
12 gave me a letter of, I want to say it said, not
13 temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until
14 further notice.
15 MR. : And your position in August
16 of 2019 was unit manager, also?
17 MR. : Yes.
18 MR. : And which units, again, were
19 you?
20 MR. : Unit. My unit was unit 11.
21 North 11 South. And 9 North at the time.
22 MR. : Do you recall being
23 interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding
24 the Epstein matter in August 2019?
25 MR. : Yes.
EFTA00118876
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1 MR. : What I have in front of me is
2 a 302. It's called a report, of investigation
3 written by the FBI(Indiscernible *00:07:49),
4 and written by the FBI, and I'm not going to
5 read through the whole thing, but we're going
6 to go through a few portions that we need
7 clarification on. And we'll go from there.
8 The paragraph that I'm starting with, it
9 starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry
10 - is 8/16/2019.
11 MR. : Mm-hmm.
12 MR. : Because the interview was
13 on 8/12/2019.
14 MR. : 8/12/2019. During the days"
15 - I'm reading from the memo - "during the days
16 prior to Epstein's death, ran into
17 Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to
18 meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or
19 Thursday. Epstein told he needed to
20 set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp.
21 *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social
22 calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set
23 it up because he was always meeting with his
24 lawyers,—and was never in the SHU. Epstein
25 asked to assist him because his normal
EFTA00118877
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1 unit manager was on leave." Who was his normal
2 unit manager?
3 MR. : His normal unit manager was
4 Unit Manager
5 MR. : ?
6 MR. -: . (Phonetic Sp.
7 *00:08:47).
8 MR. -. . . Okay.
9 MR. : Do you know how to spell
10 that last name?
11 MR. : Her name first name is
•
13 MR. -: . Okay.
14 MR. : Thank you.
15 MR. : Yeah. Thank you.
16 MR. "Epstein." Sorry.
17 looked in the system and verified the only call
18 made by Epstein, from the MCC, was the three-
19 minute call given to inmates at the time of the
20 initial intaking to the facility. made
21 the request for Epstein, and obtained a paper
22 print out of his pack and pier—and provided it
23 to Epstein." When you provided to Epstein, was
24 it active?
25 MR. : He has to activate it. The
EFTA00118878
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1 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we
2 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has
3 to activate it.
4 MR. : Okay. What do they have to
5 do activate it?
6 MR. : What they have to do is,
7 they would have to get on the phone, which, he
8 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a
9 phone call for every 30 days. So, in general
10 population, they would get on the phone, they
11 would record their voice. Once they record, by
12 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then
13 it would actually activate, and then they can't
14 money on the phone, and then have to put money
15 on a phone, then they could use the phone.
16 MR. : So, when you gave him the
17 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet
18
19 MR. : That is correct.
20 MR. : -- he still had to active it.
21 MR. : That is correct.
22 MR. : And is it that he has to put
23 money on it, too?
24 MR. : That is correct.
25 MR. : Okay.
EFTA00118879
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1 MR. : And was there any way for
2 him to activate it, with his current situation
3 at the time being in the SHU?
4 MR. : Not that particular day, he
5 was requested a phone. It would have took him,
6 to actually activate it in SHU, and add money
7 to it, because when you activate it in Special
8 Housing Unit, let's say he activates it to
9 today. He would have to fill out a green form.
10 Usually, they would do it on the computer.
11 They don't have computers in SHU where they
12 could do it. So, they would have to fill out a
13 green form, which would have to be given to
14 them by a unit manager, or a unit team member.
15 That green form is then filled out by them.
16 And then, it's submitted to our ITS, which then
17 will put it, put the money on the money on his
18 account. I would say it would take, like,
19 three or four days, to a week, for it to
20 actually be activated. Be in his account.
21 MR. : And was he provided a
22 green form?
23 MR. : No. Because at that
24 particular time, I just gave him the pin and
25 pack. That was it.
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1 MR. : So, the pin and pack
2 couldn't be used, though, is what you're
3 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then
4 request a green form?
5 MR. : That is correct. When
6 inmates originally come in, we give them their
7 pin and pack then. So, it should have been
8 activated when he first came in the building.
9 MR. : Okay. Do you know why it
10 wasn't?
11 MR. : I wasn't his unit team.
12 MR. : Sure.
13 MR. : But it should have been
14 activated then.
15 MR. : Okay. So, but the way
16 that this went, was you provided him with it,
17 but what you provided him, he couldn't have
18 actually used?
19 MR. : No.
20 MR. : And at what point does he
21 request the green form?
22 MR. : I was going to actually, the
23 next day, give him that green form, because I
24 knew, I knew it was the next step.
25 MR. : Okay.
EFTA00118881
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1 MR. : He didn't even have to ask
2 for that, because I knew it was the next step.
3 Once again, he wasn't my inmate, but I knew, as
4 unit manager --
5 MR. : Okay.
6 MR. : -- what was the next step.
7 The next step was to give him the green form,
8 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this
9 amount of money on my form. And then, give it
10 to him that way.
11 MR. : Yeah.
12 MR. : Okay. So, the days
13 leading up to Epstein's death, you ran into him
14 and he asked for it. Did you give it to him
15 that day, or did you give it to him the day -?
16 MR. : No. That day.
17 MR. : The 9th?
18 MR. : Yup.
19 MR. : So, the day prior to him
20 being found in his cell?
21 MR. : Yup.
22 MR. : Okay.
23 MR. : And correction. I'm sorry.
24 Because it's not done by computers, I want to
25 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he
EFTA00118882
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1 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do
2 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can
3 actually put money over the phone.
4 MR. : Okay. But there was no
5 phone for him to actually do that with?
6 MR. : No. Not, like, as far as a
7 phone to give it to, and let him record it.
8 No.
9 MR. : But being assigned to the
10 SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being
11 in the attorney conference. I mean, would he
12 have the ability to activate that?
13 MR. : In the attorney conference,
14 there was no, there is no phone in there.
15 MR. : In the SHU, though, could
16 he activated it?
17 MR. : In the SHU, we would have to
18 actually give him the phone, the phone would
19 have to be during his validation time. So,
20 that validation times starts in the time that
21 you come in the prison. So, say if he came in
22 on the 19th, his activation time would be the
23 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days.
24 So, being that he never used the phone, he
25 would be in there with an activated, probably,
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1 the next day.
2 MR. : But from within the SHU?
3 MR. : Within the SHU. If he was
4 given a phone.
5 MR. : Okay.
6 MR. : If he was given a phone.
7 Yeah.
8 MR. : And they do have phones
9 in the SHU, though. Is that what you're
10 saying?
11 MR. : Yes.
12 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.
13 MR. : Just a quick question. That
14 you mentioned it was on the 9th?
15 MR. : Well, it says on the days
16 leading up, he asked for it, but you said on
17 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him.
18 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he
19 asked for it?
20 MR. : No. The actual date that he
21 asked for the form, because the same day he
22 asked for a phone, I gave him his --
23 MR. : Oh. Because yeah, in the
24 interview that you had, you know, a couple days
25 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during
EFTA00118884
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1 the days prior to Epstein's death. So, days
2 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:13:34).
3 MR. : -- plural.
4 MR. : Right, right, right.
5 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) --
6 MR. : So, that -.
7 MR. -- if it says either
8 Wednesday or Thursday.
9 MR. : Yeah. It was either
10 Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure what date.
11 MR. : So, not on the date that --
12 MR. : So, not --
13 MR. : Right.
14 MR. : -- on the 9th.
15 MR. : Right.
16 MR. : Okay.
17 MR. : Either that Wednesday or
18 that Thursday, he was given that.
19 MR. : Okay.
20 MR. : Because I like I said, he
21 was always in court, but when he asked me, I
22 came down, and I saw him with his lawyer. Sc,
23 I would, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to
24 set it up.
25 MR. : Oh, he was in court, or was
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1 he -?
2 MR. : No. He was downstairs.
3 MR. : In attorney conference?
4 MR. : Yeah.
5 MR. : Okay.
6 MR. : Sorry. So, it was given
7 to him on either Wednesday or Thursday.
8 MR. : Mm-hmm.
9 MR. : Which would possibly --
10 MR. : That would be
11 MR. : -- August 7th --
12 MR. -: . -- August 7th --
13 MR. : or the 8th.
14 MR. -: . -- or the 8th.
15 MR. : That is correct.
16 MR. : And when you gave it to him,
17 was his attorneys present?
18 MR. : Yes.
19 MR. : Because it states, "Epstein
20 was happy, as were his lawyers, who made a
21 thumbs up gesture."
22 MR. : Mm-hmm.
23 MR. : Okay. I'm going to, you
24 know, read on.
25 MR. : Mm-hmm.
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1 MR. : "On Friday, August 9th, 2019,
2 worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as
3 the duty officer. Epstein told he
4 wanted to make a call to his mother, but had
5 not yet been able to set up his pack and pin.
6 , he was ensuring his inmates have
7 family socialization as part of his job, so he
8 allows inmates having technical problems with
9 their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone
10 call. told Epstein his watch was
11 ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way
12 he would be able to help him make a call was if
13 he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier
14 than normal. checked and confirmed
15 that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and
16 pin."
17 MR. : That is correct.
18 MR. "At approximately 6:45 p.m.,
19 found Epstein waiting for him, to make
20 that call." Where was he waiting?
21 MR. : In attorney conference, with
22 his lawyers.
23 MR. : Okay. And did you go in
24 there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey,
25 listen, he's waiting for you?
EFTA00118887
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1 MR. : No. They notified me in
2 attorney conference that he was ready because
3 they knew I was leaving at 7:00.
4 MR. : Okay. "Epstein was
5 handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs.
6 did not know which cell was Epstein's,
7 and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on
8 G-tier, which prefers for phone calls
9 because inmates are not locked in their cells
10 with the ability to pull the phone cord into
11 their locked cell, and use it to commit self-
12 harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the
13 shower, where the guards are also physically
14 present, with Epstein. used the first
15 outlet on the left, which is the legal line.
16 Epstein provided with the phone number
17 beginning with (347)." Now, before I go on, it
18 says you used the first outlet on the left,
19 legal line. Why the legal line?
20 MR. : Because they have two lines
21 in there. One is a legal line, and one is,
22 where he uses his phone. So, he - let's say if
23 I plugged it in there, he can't use it because
24 his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal
25 line, like we give right now, we give inmates
EFTA00118888
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1 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to
2 put in that code, in order for them to make
3 that call. So, there's a certain call where
4 the inmates don't have.
5 So, I would have to dial that - at that
6 time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial
7 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello,
8 boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him.
9 Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't
10 You can just dial out on that phone. So, a
11 legal line is set up for us to give inmates
12 legal calls in SHU.
13 MR. : What is the difference
14 between the legal line and the other line?
15 MR. : The -.
16 MR. : Other than the fact that you
17 need the pin. Is there a difference between
18 both of them?
19 MR. : Yes. The difference is an
20 inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and
21 that's social call.
22 MR. : Mm-hmm.
23 MR. : For him to make any social
24 calls to his family, which is, they're
25 recorded. That one is recorded. The legal
EFTA00118889
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1 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal
2 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be
3 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this
4 is Mr. , I have your client here. Boom,
5 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here's the phone, and
6 we give him the phone. And then, we don't stay
7 within that vicinity to listen to their phone
8 calls. And that's the same phone that they
9 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them
10 that call, we actually give it to them
11 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give
12 it to them, we give them the phone right in
13 front of us.
14 MR. : It states, about that,
15 "Epstein told he wanted to make a call
16 to his mother."
17 MR. : Mm-hmm.
18 MR. : But that was not a legal
19 call, though.
20 MR. : No.
21 MR. : It was a personal call.
22 MR. : That is correct.
23 MR. : How come the legal line?
24 MR. : Because if he didn't have
25 something set up, how would he make a phone
EFTA00118890
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1 call? And this inmate been with us for a
2 while. And me, personally, if he was my
3 inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why
4 his wasn't set up, I don't know. And I will
5 give you a good example. R. Kelly's up there,
6 his is set up. Why his wasn't set up, my job
7 as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an
8 inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden.
9 So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a
10 phone call?
11 He's been asking for this phone call for a
12 while. From his unit manager, from everybody,
13 and I'm, like, why does this inmate don't have
14 his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm
15 not his unit team. That's not my
16 responsibility to have other stuff. If it was,
17 it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty
18 officer, and I know that I verified that he
19 didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's
20 just like any other inmate. It's only right to
21 make sure that he stays in contact with his
22 family, because that's part of the program
23 statement of inmates visiting their families
24 and keeping in contact with their family
25 members. He didn't have a line to make it on.
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1 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it
2 on a legal line.
3 MR. : Did you have a conference
4 with anyone above you, to get permission for
5 that, or was it just a decision made by you?
6 MR. : I made a decision because,
7 as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00
8 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I
9 wouldn't call the warden at home and say, hey,
10 can I give him this legal call? Because that's
11 what the duty officer job is. The duty officer
12 is there representing the warden while she's
13 not there. So, basically, I'm over the
14 lieutenants, I'm over -. They would have to
15 contact me. When incidents happen, they have
16 to contact the duty officer. Then I contact
17 the region, the duty officer.
18 MR. : Oh, I see.
19 MR. : So, I don't contact the
20 warden. I contact the regional duty officer.
21 MR. : So, as the duty officer, you
22 report to the region?
23 MR. : That is correct.
24 MR. : Do you recall having a
25 conversation, though, with the captain, and him
EFTA00118892
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1 providing you the authority to do it?
2 MR. : No. Because with unit
3 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone
4 call is not the captain's responsibility.
5 MR. : No, no, no. We had
6 information that you actually spoke with him in
7 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the
8 call.
9 MR. -:
10 MR. : Is that true? Yeah.
11 MR. : I don't - it's been so long
12 - I don't recall. I could have. But at the
13 same time, even if he would have said yes or
14 no, I would have gave him the call. Because I
15
16 MR. : Okay.
17 MR. : -- because my, myself, just
18 being unit team, inmates, it is our
19 responsibility as a unit team, and our program
20 statement, that we make sure they keep in
21 contact with their family members, or whoever.
22 Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have
23 to.
24 MR. : Mm-hmm.
25 MR. : We have inmates that are -
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1 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact,
2 inmates that indigent cndogcn (Phonetic Sp.
3 *00:20:19), that don't have no money.
4 MR. : Yeah.
5 MR. : How will we give them a
6 phone call? We give them the phone call the
7 same way. Inmates who don't have money,
8 they're indigent cndogcn. So, if they need a
9 phone call, we have to give them a phone call.
10 We can't just not give them a phone call, but
11 we would call the number, give them the phone
12 call, let them speak to - and we give them a
13 15-minute phone call.
14 MR. : Is that on the legal
15 line, as well?
16 MR. : Yes.
17 MR. : Okay.
18 MR. : Because if they don't have
19 no money, --
20 MR. : Mm-hmm.
21 MR. : -- there's no way to put
22 money on it, but we don't give them money.
23 They're indigent cndogcn. And that will be on
24 their --
25 MR. : What is the word you're
EFTA00118894
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 ending?
2 MR. indigent cndogcn.
3 MR. : Okay.
4 MR. : So, that will be on their -.
5 We would look on their money form. And
6 basically, any - what they - how they determine
7 if you're indigent cndogcn, they go by how much
8 money you received in the last six months.
9 They go by six months. So, if an inmate only
10 received, I think it's, I want to say under $50
11 bucks, that inmate is indigent cndogcn. It's
12 now in the unit team's responsibility. Also,
13 we not just give them phone calls. An indigent
14 cndogcn inmate could get up to five legal
15 stamps, every month, and if he wants to do his
16 lawyer, he can get up to five every week.
17 MR. : Now --
18 MR. : Indigent Cnedege•n inmates.
19 MR. : -- so, back to
20 though. Does that - from what you said - does
21 that mean, like, it wasn't even him, and his
22 kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility,
23 to tell you that you were authorized?
24 MR. : I think me and had a
25 rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there.
EFTA00118895
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1 An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke.
2 So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So,
3 if I did ask him, it was me giving him a
4 courtesy. I would have did that to any
5 captain.
6 MR. : Okay.
7 MR. : If you was the captain.
8 It's just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give
9 this guy a phone call. This, this, and that.
10 could have said to me, oh, I don't think
11 that's a good idea. And I would have said,
12 okay. Probably would have went to somebody
13 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the
14 same time, once again, there's nobody there
15 after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would
16 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm
17 going to give him a phone call.
18 MR. : Okay. And you don't
19 remember, though, having that conversation
20 MR. : No.
21 MR. : -- with , and being
22
23 MR. : And I --
24 MR. : -- (Indiscernible
25 *00:22:13).
EFTA00118896
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. and I could have. I
2 could have had that conversation, because Like
3 I said, we talk on a regular basis. So, I
4 could have.
5 MR. : Just bringing yourself
6 back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet
7 with him, the attorneys are in there. They
8 give you the thumbs up, and you're going back,
9 and you go into an elevator. Do you remember
10 at all being in the elevator with you?
11 MR. : No. I remember being
12 around because - and the reason why I know that
13 - is because doesn't have a lieutenant
14 to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9
15 working there that day.
16 MR. : Okay.
17 MR. : I do remember that. So, if
18 you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or
19 because you have to have a GS-11 and above.
20 MR. : Mm-hmm.
21 MR. : So, he was there that day.
22 I do remember that.
23 MR. : Okay. But you just don't
24 remember that conversation?
25 MR. : That is correct.
EFTA00118897
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Okay. Perfect.
2 MR. : Now that the call was given
3 on the legal line, was there any steps to make
4 sure, because it's supposed to be recorded, you
5 know, an inmate call, a social call, is
6 supposed to be recorded.
7 MR. : Right.
8 MR. : He said he's calling his
9 mother. Was there any steps that you should
10 have taken to ensure that that call was
11 monitored somehow?
12 MR. : The only way we monitor it
13 is, I made the phone call, hello, how you
14 doing? I don't say, hey, is this his mother,
15 because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this
16 his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his
17 mother. How do I know? So, a female answers,
18 I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15
19 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15
20 minutes. When he's done with the phone call,
21 disconnect, and that's it.
22 So, we don't know. Let's say, right now,
23 I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now.
24 For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or
25 whatever. Do we know there's a three-way, or
EFTA00118898
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33
1 anything? We don't know. So, we sit down. We
2 time it. 15 minutes. And we're done. There's
3 no way to record that phone. There's no way to
4 pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can
5 get on the line. Anybody can get on that line,
6 at that particular time.
7 That was in place since I've been at MCC.
8 Has anything changed? The only thing changed
9 since I've been there is they took out all of
10 the legal lines, and they put them in one
11 particular area. They took them all out of
12 SHU, and they put one legal line in the back,
13 and they changed the code for that particular
14 reason.
15 MR. : What -?
16 MR. : And that wasn't after
17 Epstein. It took a while.
18 MR. : So, they do it in
19 response because people were doing that, was
20 what you mean?
21 MR. : The reason -. I'm one of
22 the ones who actually brought it to the
23 captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible
24 *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was
25 (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a
EFTA00118899
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1 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even
2 after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was
3 there, she - and anybody would say, okay,
4 inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone
5 restriction.
6 But remember, the warden is the only one
7 who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone
8 call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can
9 you give him a phone call? He's on a phone
10 restriction. There's only two ways you could
11 give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you
12 can't give it to him on a social, you give it
13 to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs
14 the cop out. She approves it. Well, any
15 warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not
16 trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how
17 it's done. That's how I've seen it done.
18 Once we get it approved, we give the
19 inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey,
20 hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the
21 chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you -
22 give him two minutes - hey, you have two
23 minutes left and that's it. Take the phone
24 from the inmate. We don't know that person is
25
EFTA00118900
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Okay. So, you are
2 supposed to
3 MR. : -- because (Indiscernible
4 *00:25:32).
5 MR. : -- you're supposed to sit
6 there with them, though. Correct?
7 MR. : No. There's nothing saying
8 that. That's just, like, sit there and do
9 what?
10 MR. : Oh, so, everything that
11 we've been told is that, if you give the person
12 a call, on a legal line, if it's not the
13 attorney, you're supposed to sit there and
14 monitor the call, because it's not being
15 recorded.
16 MR. : Well, they -. And since
17 I've been there, and that's the reason why I
18 asked them to take it out. Because how you
19 putting somebody on a range, and saying that,
20 hey, this person -. If that's the case, then
21 let's do it the right way. The right way --
22 MR. : Mm-hmm.
23 MR. is to belly chain the
24 inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right
25 way. Take him out - because that's what we do
EFTA00118901
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36
1 down there - you take him out. You pull the
2 inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded
3 area. You make the phone call. On speaker.
4 Because that's how we do it downstairs. And
5 then, you give it to him on speaker. And then,
6 you let him -. If he wants his 15-minute phone
7 call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk
8 to on speaker.
9 That's how Epstein received his first
10 phone call. It's a three-minute phone call on
11 speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could
12 say, this is the way to do it. That's not the
13 proper way. The proper way to make a phone
14 call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate
15 secluded, because these guys can hear, too.
16 So, you don't know what he's saying. He could
17 be crying for his death. And you got other
18 inmates right there. In the next cell who
19 could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this
20 to me. That.
21 So, the proper way is to bring the inmate
22 out, put him in a belly chain, because then he
23 has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the
24 phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put
25 him on speaker. That's the proper way.
EFTA00118902
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : I'm going to finish the
2 paragraph.
3 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4 MR. : I know. I'm just --
5 MR. : Yeah.
6 MR. : -- (Indiscernible
7 *00:27:14).
8 MR. : And before we go --
9 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:27:14).
10 MR. : -- just one question,
11 though. Is it pin and pack, or pack and pin?
12 MR. : It's either way.
13 MR. : Oh, okay.
14 MR. : You could say it. Because
15 it's a pin and pack, pack and pin. It's -
16 yeah.
17 MR. : It's all, and it's
18 interchangeable?
19 MR. : Yeah. Because one, your
20 pin is a different number, and your pack is a
21 different number.
22 MR. : Okay.
23 MR. : When you pick up the phone,
24 they're going to say, hey, say your name, and
25 enter your pack number. You enter your pack
EFTA00118903
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38
1 number, and then it's going to say, enter your
2 pin. That's, like, a four-digit pin.
3 MR. : Okay.
4 MR. : I'm going to read the rest of
5 it. "Epstein provided with the phone
6 number beginning with (347). dialed
7 the number, and a male picked up the phone.
8 handed the phone to Epstein, and heard
9 him say, hey, how you doing? How is
10 everything? then left because his
11 watch was over, and Epstein was being guarded
12 by SHU C.O.s and T. Noel, and II
13 from internal. described
14 Epstein as very happy that he was able to make
15 a phone call."
16 MR. : That is correct.
17 MR. : Now, can you walk us through.
18 So, once he brought him up. Right? And you
19 put the legal line in --
20 MR. : They brought him out.
21 MR. you dialed -.
22 MR. : I just walked up with the
23 internal. Internal. All inmates have to be
24 walked by an internal. So, , myself
25 escort him up. We brought him up. He was
EFTA00118904
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39
1 already in chains already. So, I mean, in the
2 cuffs. Bring him up. Go to the shower. Take
3 him out the cuffs. Put him and secure him.
4 Take the cuffs off. Once again, the legal line
5 can't fit to where the inmate could get
6 everything. He just has a handle. So, we dial
7 the number. Hello? Give it to him. And once
8 that's at 7:00, I told the officers, hey, make
9 sure he get his 15-minutes, and after that,
10 he's done. was there. They was, like,
11 okay, no problem. And that was it.
12 MR. : So, you told Noel and
13
14 MR. : Yes.
15 MR. : -- and was also
16 there, that, after 15 minutes, cut off the
17 call?
18 MR. : That is correct.
19 MR. : Did you give them
20 instructions on listening to the phone call at
21 all?
22 MR. : No.
23 MR. : Where was - this is G-tier
24 where was G-tier compared to the officer SHU
25 MR. : Okay.
EFTA00118905
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40
1 MR. : -- and the officer desk? If
2 you're looking at the desk, where is it?
3 MR. : Let's say the desk is by me.
4 MR. : Yeah.
5 MR. : Okay? You go in, and the
6 desk is me, you have tier, this is the first
7 tier. And this is the, with the door. So,
8 it's, G-tier is over here.
9 MR. : Behind the desk?
10 MR. : No. The desk is here.
11 MR. : Okay.
12 MR. : So, I could see
13 MR. : All right.
14 MR. : I could see G-tier. So,
15 G-tier is here. I could see it.
16 MR. : All right. Okay.
17 MR. : Yeah. And you could see G-
18 tier.
19 MR. : And when you walk up G-tier,
20 where is the shower?
21 MR. : Right there.
22 MR. : Right when you walk in?
23 MR. : That's the only -. That's
24 the only shower that is outside. All the other
25 showers are inside. So, you have to -. So,
EFTA00118906
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 you can't see it. So, G-tier is the only
2 shower that's, like, you could actually see.
3 Like, if you sit down, you can actually see
4 that G-tier shower. That's the only shower.
5 All the other showers are inside. You have a
6 cage. Shower. So, you have a cage where the
7 inmates inside the shower. This one, you can
8 actually see the shower because it's on the
9 outside. That's the only one because - excuse
10 me - that G-tier is made specifically for the
11 high-profile inmates.
12 MR. : Okay.
13 MR. : That's why it's made like
14 that.
15 MR. : Now, based on, when you gave
16 the phone call to him, where was and
17 Noel? Where they at the G -? At the shower
18 area, or where they sitting --
19 MR. : No.
20 MR. : -- at the desk?
21 MR. : They were sitting at the
22 desk.
23 MR. : The desk. And what about
24
25 MR. was with me. And
EFTA00118907
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42
1 then, I told , I said, hey, just make
2 sure he gets off. He's internal now - so, he
3 probably went back to doing his internal
4 duties. Internal, any time they need an
5 inmate, that's his job to escort them back and
6 forth.
7 MR. : And you left for the day,
8 after that?
9 MR. : That is correct. At 7:00.
10 MR. : Did you make any phone calls
11 back, to check in on them, and to verify that
12 Epstein was finishing his phone call?
13 MR. : No.
14 MR. : So, you just So, Noel
15 said that you spoke to her and said, hey, make
16 - hey, get that phone, his phone back after his
17 phone call is done.
18 MR. : I remember speaking to her.
19 And I do. So, I don't know if I was, like, in
20 the car, in -. But I did ask her. I said,
21 hey, did you take the phone from the inmate?
22 And she said, yes.
23 MR. : And that was that night,
24 before you left?
25 MR. : That is correct.
EFTA00118908
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43
1 MR. : Okay. She said that --
2 MR. : So, it could have been
3 MR. : -- she said that -.
4 MR. I could have been in the
5 institution, I could been outside of my car.
6 Or I could have been going on the train. But I
7 did contact her and say, yes. Did you make
8 sure you take him off the phone? Yes.
9 MR. : Okay. She said you said,
10 hey, make sure you get that phone back from
11 him, because his time is up, and then, she
12 said, okay. And that's when she went and took
13 it back. Does that sound right?
14 MR. : Yes.
15 MR. : Okay. You want to ask
16 more about that comment? Why -? Is that why
17 you had contacted her, though, to make sure
18 that she -?
19 MR. : That is correct. Because
20 don't want him going over that 15 minutes. I
21 mean, 16, 17 minutes, but to stay on the phone,
22 no.
23 MR. : Okay.
24 MR. : So, yeah. I would --
25 MR. : Okay.
EFTA00118909
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44
1 MR. : I would definitely want
2 to verify that.
3 MR. : Did you talk --
4 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:31:45).
5 MR. : -- was there anything,
6 any other conversations you had with her
7 MR. : No.
8 MR. : -- with Noel?
9 MR. : Not that I recall. It could
10 have, could have been. But all, the main thing
11 was to take him off the telephone.
12 MR. : Okay. And you did that
13 from your car?
14 MR. : My - yeah - my phone.
15 Either from the car or the train. I don't know
16 what I caught that day. But from my personal
17 phone.
18 MR. : Okay. And do you
19 remember at all, around what time that would
20 have been?
21 MR. : It could have been, if I
22 left at 7:00, it had to be no later than 7:00,
23 7:15.
24 MR. : Okay.
25 MR. : Yeah.
EFTA00118910
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45
1 MR. : Now, going back, I'm going to
2 read a part here. dialed the number,
3 and a male picked up the phone." Being that,
4 when Epstein asked to make a phone call, he
5 said he was going to - he wanted to call his
6 mother.
7 MR. : Mm-hmm.
8 MR. : Did you verify who the person
9 was? Did you ask about his mother? Did you
10 ask to speak to a specific person? Identify
11 the person before you --
12 MR. : I did not.
13 MR. how come?
14 MR. : I just didn't. And there
15 was no reason why I didn't. I just didn't.
16 MR. : Because he was just - we have
17 to get clarification - because he asked for his
18 mother, but it was a male that picked up, and
19 it was, you know, contradictory to what he
20 requested, to who the phone was being handed
21 off to. That didn't. How come - I know you
22 didn't ask - but is there a reason? Normally,
23 do you verify if an inmate is talking to the
24 person that they have requested to speak to?
25 MR. : I mean, do I verify?
EFTA00118911
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46
1 There's not a lot of inmates that we do give
2 phone calls. So, let's say, if a dude said,
3 hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick
4 up. Okay. How you doing? Because he's giving
5 me that number, and I'm verifying that that
6 number is on his - but which he don't, you
7 can't verify his numbers, because he don't have
8 an account. So, give him the phone, and that's
9 it. I don't Me verifying it, was it, you
10 know, was it something I should have done?
11 Yes. Was it something I did? No.
12 MR. : Okay. And are inmates
13 allowed to call just anyone, or is there a
14 specific list of people that they are allowed
15 to call?
16 MR. : Originally how it works is,
17 if an inmate is asking for, of course, his
18 mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he
19 wants to speak to, usually, it's not ever a
20 friend. It's usually immediate family members.
21 Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts,
22 whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone
23 list. But once again, how can an inmate have a
24 phone list when he has no account set up?
25 MR. : So, the pack and pin, if he
EFTA00118912
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 set that up, would have had a phone list --
2 MR. : That is -.
3 MR. : -- and certain people he
4 could have called?
5 MR. : That is correct.
6 MR. : Okay. You got anything on
7 that?
8 MR. : I'll circle back, after
9 you finish your -.
10 MR. : That's all on that topic.
11 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. No.
12 So, I mean, I just want to get more
13 clarification.
14 MR. : Mm-hmm.
15 MR. : When you said that you
16 gave him the phone call, and then, did you
17 inform Noel and , with present, or
18 did you say for one, or the other, or who did
19 you say, make sure this phone call ends in 1x-
20 minutes?
21 MR. : All three of them was there.
22 When I --
23 MR. : All three.
24 MR. -- when I actually told
25 them, because remember, brought him up
EFTA00118913
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 with me.
2 MR. : Right.
3 MR. : And I said, you guys, just
4 make sure it's 15 minutes and that's it. 10-4.
5 And that's the reason why I made that phone
6 call. But I made it to the SHU. So, whoever
7 would have answered it, it either would have
8 been or Noel. It wouldn't have been
9 Masulllo because he's internal.
10 MR. : All right. So, you
11 didn't -. So, I thought the way that you
12 answered it was that you told make sure
13 it ends in 15 minutes. But you would have told
14 Noel or
15 MR. : Pretty much everybody.
16 MR. : Okay.
17 MR. : Everybody was there when I
18 said --
19 MR. : Okay.
20 MR. : -- make sure he's off in 15
21 minutes. Everybody was there.
22 MR. : Okay.
23 MR. : Because when you talking to
24
25 MR. : But because --
EFTA00118914
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : -- as I'm talking -
2 MR. was internal,
3 he wouldn't stay that 15 minutes.
4 MR. : Right.
5 MR. : Right?
6 MR. : So, let's say, right now,
7 and I'm saying, hey, you guys make sure it's
8 all - he's there, and the desk is only over
9 there, so, everybody knows, hey, you guys, make
10 sure he's off. Even if I told
11 specifically, I told - they all knew, because I
12 said, hey, make sure he's off in 15 minutes.
13 And that's the reason why I called SHU back.
14 Because I know I can get into SHU. Like, if I
15 call back, I couldn't get because he's
16 all over the building.
17 MR. : So, that's where I was
18 just wanted to verify. It was more, like, you
19 told Noel and was present and a
20 witness.
21 MR. : That is correct.
22 MR. : Okay. So, it was
23 addressed to Noel and
24 MR. : That is correct.
25 MR. : -- who worked in the SHU.
EFTA00118915
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : That is correct.
2 MR. : Okay. And then, you
3 just, and what caused you - if you told them
4 that there - what caused you to follow up with
5 them in the car?
6 MR. : And that was just me, where
7 let's say you have officers - it was only two.
8 And I don't know how many inmates we had at the
9 time, but we had several. This is not
10 midnight. So, me personally, they should have
11 more officers in there. So, they could have
12 got busy.
13 MR. : Sure.
14 MR. : It could have been a use of
15 force. IT could have been anything. So, what
16 if those inmates still got the phone? So, at
17 least they could have went down there, pulled
18 the - all they have to do is pull the jack out.
19 There was nothing else they can do.
20 MR. : Okay.
21 MR. : So, I just wanted to make
22 sure that was done.
23 MR. : Mm-hmm.
24 MR. : Because I didn't want him to
25 stay on that phone.
EFTA00118916
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Now, would it --
2 MR. : Over 15 minutes.
3 MR. would it typically be
4 - and I understand what you're saying, it
5 sounds like MCC kind of wasn't doing things
6 right - but per BOP, should have you, as the
7 unit manager, been the person that, if you
8 provided the telephone call, you should have
9 actually sat there and monitored it?
10 MR. : Yes. And that's what I went
11 over with you guys, the proper way to make a
12 phone call --
13 MR. : Right.
14 MR. : -- if he wanted that phone
15 call, is the inmate come out. He wouldn't be
16 in the shower.
17 MR. : Right.
18 MR. : The inmate come out. The
19 inmate go to, let's say, an area, and you put
20 it on speaker.
21 MR. : So, that's the proper
22 way. So, why --
23 MR. : That is the proper way.
24 MR. : -- wasn't it -. And
25 just, we have to cover this.
EFTA00118917
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52
1 MR. : Yeah.
2 MR. : Why wasn't it that proper
3 way done?
4 MR. : Shortness of staff. Due to
5 the shortness of staff. And why didn't he -
6 and I always ask the question - why didn't he
7 what was so special? - why didn't he have a
8 pack and pin set up? Every inmate in the BOP
9 has always had a pen and a pack set up.
10 MR. : Okay.
11 MR. : So, my question, my question
12 to myself is, why is he the only one?
13 MR. : Sure.
14 MR. : And he's not endogen.
15 MR. : Now, going back to
16 According to you said he spoke
17 with you in the elevator, and that you said,
18 yeah, go ahead, give him his phone call. But
19 make sure it's monitored and logged. Do you
20 remember that -?
21 MR. : In the book. Yes.
22 MR. : So, when he said, make
23 sure it's monitored and logged, wouldn't that
24 have been, like, make sure you stay with him
25 while it's going on?
EFTA00118918
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53
1 MR. : No. Monitor and log is just
2 make sure we had a logbook that it was actually
3 logged in a phone logbook. And at the time,
4 they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was
5 aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there,
6 they didn't have. We made, like, I recently
7 made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that
8 myself because I know what was - what we was
9 doing in other prisons. They didn't have one
10 here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And
11 it wasn't after Epstein.
12 I just said, if we're giving inmates legal
13 calls, we need to have that documented, and so
14 an inmate - let's say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and
15 BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I
16 never got this call. Same thing with social
17 calls. Social calls have to be logged in the
18 book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print
19 the data off and say, okay, you made a 15
20 minute phone, but we should be logging it in
21 because it should be also the person who's
22 giving that inmate that phone call.
23 MR. : So, was that phone call
24 logged, then?
25 MR. : No.
EFTA00118919
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Okay. So, it wasn't
2 logged, and it wasn't monitored. Okay. As far
3 as who he spoke with, do you know who he spoke
4 with?
5 MR. : I do not.
6 MR. : No. Okay. All right.
7 Do you want to talk about the memo?
8 MR. : Yeah. Going back, you said
9 that he requested multiple times --
10 MR. : Mm-hmm.
11 MR. -- for his pack and pen to be
12 set up. Not to you, but to other people. Do
13 you know who he requested that to?
14 MR. : He requested it to me, but
15 he told me numerous times that he actually was
16 unit team. The only unit team he had at the
17 time was Unit Manager was the
18 counselor. That was . And who
19 else was it? I don't think had -.
20 think she had . There was one more
21 person. I'm trying to think who else she had
22 under her. Oh. And I'm want -. I
23 want to say (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:46).
24 don't know if he was under her. I know she had
25 two people under her.
EFTA00118920
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Okay.
2 MR. : But that was their
3 responsibility to set that up. And let's say -
4 I'll give you a good example - let's use R.
5 Kelly. All right? He's in my unit now. Okay?
6 So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new
7 guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going
8 to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and
9 pin. That's something they're going to do.
10 Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It
11 doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line.
12 He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He
13 set it up the same way.
14 So, saying that is how long do we have
15 Epstein, and it wasn't set up? So, it should
16 have been set up from the beginning. So, we
17 wouldn't have this problem where, okay, an
18 inmate is entitled to call his family member or
19 whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So,
20 that's besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm
21 not going to sit there and sugar coat it and
22 say, hey, I should have sat right there, but
23 even sitting right there, what can I heard him
24 say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever.
25 And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have
EFTA00118921
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56
1 pulled him out and put him in this area, and
2 put it on speaker.
3 But once again, we're talking about 80
4 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you
5 know, it should be four officers, instead of
6 that. But it's two officers. So, there was a
7 lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going
8 around. I'm not putting that on nobody. This
9 is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not
10 speaking about anybody else. So, once I
11 realized a lot of stuff was going on, and
12 that's not just because of his death, it's
13 things that I know that should be happening.
14 put those things in place at MCC because it
15 wasn't happening.
16 I did those. I'm the one who put a green
17 book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I
18 did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do
19 it. I just knew it was the right thing to do.
20 I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the
21 com shop, and told him, take the legal line
22 out. And it wasn't just because of Epstein.
23 It was because a lot of inmates were
24 manipulating staff to give them the legal line,
25 to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate
EFTA00118922
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1 is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or
2 another inmate? And it wasn't monitored. So,
3 I saw that, and I'm the one who did that.
4 MR. : Well, I'm glad you said
5 that, because that's - from my understanding
6 the reason why it's supposed to be monitored
7 and verified who they're talking about, is
8 because hits on other inmates --
9 MR. : That is correct.
10 MR. : -- or being able to run
11 an organization from within the institution.
12 MR. : That is correct.
13 MR. : So, and that's why,
14 unfortunately, this becomes a little bit more
15 of a serious matter.
16 MR. : And I get it.
17 MR. : Okay.
18 MR. : I have - once again - I have
19 no excuse. I get it. And maybe I was one of
20 those who fell into the thing, what MCC was
21 doing, but I still know better.
22 MR. : Okay.
23 MR. : Because I have 27 years in.
24 MR. : And when you corrected
25 the problem, that was - it sounds like - after
EFTA00118923
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 Epstein.
2 MR. : Of course.
3 MR. : Okay. Do you know how
4 long after?
5 MR. : What's that? What he, in
6 October, or
7 MR. : August.
8 MR. : -- August?
9 MR. : Yeah. August. Augu.--
10 10t is when.
11 MR. : I'm going to say the
12 beginning - me - the beginning of 2020.
13 MR. : Okay.
14 MR. : Because at MCC, it takes,
15 it's not something you, like, you go to people,
16 and you say - and you know right from wrong -
17 and you go, hey, you know, I know everything is
18 a little salty now. People running around. I
19 know it's crazy. But you go to these people.
20 Hey, communication. Because that's who has a
21 door. Hey, we need to take these legal lines
22 out. Okay. I'm good with that. Let's get
23 with -. So, get with the associate warden,
24 hey, associate warden. And I'm putting this in
25 emails. I'm not just, you know, hey, we need
EFTA00118924
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 to get rid of this stuff.
2 MR. : Right.
3 MR. : Because it's bad for staff
4 down there. Okay. Get with this person. Get
5 with that person. Vice versa. It's just a lot
6 of back and forth. So, it took, you know,
7 you're trying to get this stuff done, and
8 they're acting like it's the hardest thing to
9 do. Communication staff is telling me, it
10 could happen like that. I could just snap a
11 wire, that legal line is gone. Come to find
12 out, when it was finally approved, that's all
13 it took. Just like that.
14 MR. : And then, as far as, you
15 said, that it seems like it was kind of common
16 practice at the time, that, like, people were
17 just putting inmates on legal lines. Was that
18 happening a lot, then, around that time?
19 MR. : All the time.
20 MR. : All the time.
21 MR. : All the time.
22 MR. : So, was that -. Now, who
23 was -. Were you also one of the ones that was
24 constantly providing -?
25 MR. : No. The only call I gave an
EFTA00118925
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 inmate was Epstein, during that time. If I
2 ever gave an inmate - once again - a call,
3 let's say to his mother, I would have to go
4 through the warden. Like, if you on phone
5 restriction, I would not. I would just be,
6 like, hey, warden. You know, they asking the
7 warden. She's the warden. They would sign a
8 cop out. She would say, Mr. , make sure
9 this inmate gets his phone call. She would
10 follow up, and say the next day, hey, Mr.
11 , did you give this inmate the phone
12 call? Yes, ma'am, I did.
13 MR. : And when you're talking
14 about a female. Who is it that you are
15 speaking of?
16 MR. : Warden
17 MR. : Okay.
18 MR. : The warden.
19 MR. : Like, but at that time,
20 was it , right?
21 MR. -: was, at the time,
22 well, this is -. never told me to give
23 an inmate --
24 MR. : Okay.
25 MR. : -- a phone.
EFTA00118926
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61
1 MR. : So, you're talking after
2
3 MR. : That is correct.
4 MR. : Okay.
5 MR. : Because inmates would ask
6 her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again,
7 inmates can ask for anything you want. If
8 that's just, like, if your visit has been taken
9 for a year. They have the right to ask for a
10 special visit.
11 MR. : Mm-hmm.
12 MR. : The special visit is
13 approved by who? The warden. Typically, the
14 warden just usually don't. They have to be
15 really an emergency, somebody is dying, or
16 something. But if you've been sanctioned, and
17 if you read the policy, the only person who
18 really can do that is the regional DHO, but
19 under, of course, the warden, because that's
20 her jail, or that's his jail, or whoever the
21 warden is. They can do it. But they would
22 have to - you would have to put it in the memo
23 form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day.
24 So, special visits never happen, but
25 MR. : Sure.
EFTA00118927
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : -- the phone calls did.
2 MR. : So, in the phone calls,
3 though, it sounds like they were happening, not
4 only prior to Epstein, but also following
5 Epstein's discovery on August 9th.
6 MR. : Mm-hmm.
7 MR. : So, staff members were -.
8 And that's in the SHU, as well?
9 MR. : That's the only way On
10 the outside, we never did it on that. We don't
11 have to do it on the outside. This was mainly
12 inmates in SHU. These are all inmates in SHU.
13 MR. : Oh, so, you're speaking
14 specifically to the SHU, and the G-tier shower?
15 MR. : No. Remember. They had the
16 legal line. I put him in the G-tier because
17 the whole phone couldn't reach.
18 MR. : Okay.
19 MR. : So, I did that as a security
20 breach of this inmate can't do nothing to
21 himself, or whoever. I knew who he was. But
22 as far as on the tiers, they had legal lines on
23 every tier. Between every cell. So, if I had
24 went to -. I can go downstairs, plug this
25 phone in, and give it to an inmate.
EFTA00118928
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63
1 MR. : And that's what they were
2 doing?
3 MR. : Yup.
4 MR. : So, they were just
5 plugging it in
6 MR. : Everybody was doing it.
7 MR. : -- okay. So, you chose
8 to put him in the G-tier shower. Other staff
9 members are just giving it to him on any legal
10 line? And that's for other inmates.
11 MR. : It was constant. And it was
12 nothing I mean, so, I requested that
13 because it was putting staff in a bind. My
14 thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying,
15 like, these are young staff. You know, some
16 staff got, you know, once you get your year,
17 you can go to SHU. They don't know no better.
18 Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it
19 in the social line. Right? And let's say you
20 got a staff that's down there, and the inmate
21 go, hold that, my phone's not working. It says
22 social and legal.
23 So, you know the difference. And then, he
24 takes it out of social and plug it. So, it
25 might not be typically that staff member. It
EFTA00118929
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1 could be another staff member taking it out and
2 putting it there. So, that's why I said, okay,
3 let's get rid of it. What they did was, they
4 did a quick fix. They put tape around it.
5 Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What's
6 putting tape around it? Anybody could take off
7 the tape.
8 MR. : Right.
9 MR. : And it was happening. So,
10 tape is coming off. Then they tried to put
11 puddy in it. That didn't work. So,
12 eventually, they did exactly what I asked them
13 to do. There was only one line you could plug
14 in. And that was your phone call. That's it.
15 All legal lines was put in the back of the
16 visit room, where you have to have a staff
17 member present at that time.
18 MR. : In the SHU visiting room?
19 MR. : Yes. And that --
20 MR. : Okay.
21 MR. : -- the only person that will
22 be is that will be unit team.
23 MR. : Okay. And how did you
24 know that the staff members were providing
25 inmates with these calls?
EFTA00118930
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65
1 MR. : Let's say I'm doing my
2 rounds. I'm doing my unit manager rounds. All
3 right? I'm doing my unit manager rounds. I'm
4 doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the
5 difference between the cord, and you go, what's
6 this guy on right here? Oh, he's on a social
7 call. No, he's not on a social call. He's on
8 the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, _
9 would go over there, and of course, I catch
10 problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I
11 don't have no minutes. You don't have no
12 minutes. You shouldn't -. You're on phone
13 restriction. It's a lot. Now, it becomes a
14 problem where, guess what? The inmate acts
15 out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many
16 phones we've replaced in there? Listen. It
17 was a lot.
18 MR. : Okay.
19 MR. : Like I said, me personally,
20 I would never make an excuse for myself. You
21 know? Regardless of the fact, the years that
22 have in, I should have did it the right way.
23 There is no way for me, myself, to fall into
24 MCC's trap, which I did. And it caused me to
25 be right here today. So, I would never make an
EFTA00118931
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 excuse for that.
2 MR. : Okay.
3 MR. : I just want to clarify.
4 Based on the question I asked, based on your
5 conversation with Epstein, he said that he
6 requested pack and pin from and
7 multiple times, but it was just never set up.
8 MR. : That is correct.
9 MR. : Okay.
10 MR. : Yeah. And on that note,
11 you had mentioned I don't think
12 was a counselor at that time.
13 MR. : And that's what I'm saying.
14 He probably was a lieutenant.
15 MR. : Oh, yeah.
16 MR. : And then, went to A- i
17 that's what I said. It's been so long.
18 don't know who. But I know she had other
19 people under her. I know it was -. She did
20 have a case manager, , but she left.
21 MR. : Okay.
22 MR. : At that time. So, she's no
23 longer there.
24 MR. : Okay. And just to touch
25 on, this is kind of off the topic, but you
EFTA00118932
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67
1 mentioned unit manager rounds. What is that?
2 Is that like a lieutenant round?
3 MR. : No. So, what we do is, unit
4 team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We
5 go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't
6 know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that
7 we sign in.
8 MR. : Mm-hmm.
9 MR. : You go in. You sign in.
10 Put the time you in. And then, whenever you
11 come out. So, we would go there, and we would
12 run a roster with all of our inmates. 11
13 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom.
14 Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your
15 unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need?
16 They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I
17 want a phone call. Okay. You on phone
18 restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next
19 validation date? And a lot of those guys were
20 legit. Oh, by validation.
21 So, they can really make a phone call.
22 So, I don't know why they wasn't getting phone
23 calls. But then, I found out a lot, they
24 didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere
25 I've been, it's a SHU schedule. Monday, this
EFTA00118933
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68
1 range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can
2 get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay,
3 Mondays, we don't use the phone. It's just us
4 going to use the phone. And that should have
5 been set up that way.
6 Once again, I set that up. I did. I
7 didn't have to. But I did it because I thought
8 it was just right for the inmates, and for the
9 staff. This way, they're not, okay, they're
10 giving this inmate a phone call today.
11 Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next
12 day. And this becomes where the inmates are
13 actually running the phones the way they want
14 to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should
15 be giving this range on Monday, and that should
16 be every Monday.
17 If this dude is validated, and he can get
18 a phone call, he should get a phone call.
19 Leave it on that range, put it in the social
20 line, he can only make - at that time - you can
21 only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would
22 cut off no matter what. So, you can go down
23 there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you
24 knew that the phone call was over. You knew it
25 was over. It was done. Take it, give it to
EFTA00118934
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 the next person.
2 MR. : Mm-hmm.
3 MR. : So, it was a lot that MCC
4 had backwards. They just came up with the
5 phones where you wheel the real phones, the way
6 it's supposed to be. The actual phone that
7 they have on the phone, but they have it on a
8 stand. You wheel it over there. You open the
9 slot. You leave the slot open. The inmate
10 down, and the only thing he can have is that.
11 We had the old phones where you're giving an
12 inmate the whole phone, put the wire in the
13 thing, and locks the slot. Now, the inmate has
14 a phone.
15 MR. : So, with the unit team
16 round, do you go around to each one of the
17 inmates --
18 MR. : Each cell. And I look for
19 my inmates. And let's say --
20 MR. : -- oh, so, you only have
21 certain inmates that you're going to?
22 MR. right. Let's say I had
23 12 - no, but I'm doing rounds in an entire
24 tier, because what if another inmate from
25 says, hey, I need a BP-8. I'm still writing
EFTA00118935
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70
1 that down. And I will email later and
2 say - because we do the same thing here - we
3 email every unit team, hey, this inmate had an
4 issue, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would
5 address it whenever they do their SHU rounds.
6 So, our job is to go to every cell. Not just
7 our inmates. But I ran a roster so I can know
8 who my inmates is, but our job as a unit team
9 go to every cell.
10 MR. : So --
11 MR. : Not just our inmates.
12 MR. : -- two questions on that.
13 Is a lieutenant round supposed to be done the
14 same way, where they're going to every cell?
15 MR. : A lieutenant round on each
16 shift is the same way, where they're supposed
17 to go to every cell. Look in the window. And
18 we And now, this, when we was doing, take
19 your streams now, do this, if an inmate is not
20 moving --
21 MR. : Okay.
22 MR. : -- hit the light. Make sure
23 inmates living and breathing. Yes. That's a
24 lieutenants' round.
25 MR. : So, a lieutenant round
EFTA00118936
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71
1 does actually consist of going to every cell
2 MR. : Every cell.
3 MR. : -- not just checking in
4 with the --
5 MR. : No.
6 MR. : -- staff members to see
7 if they're doing it.
8 MR. : That's the last thing.
9 That's the last thing they do. Our job, even
10 when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing
11 unit. In the housing unit, you don't have to
12 go every cell in the housing unit because it's
13 not the SHU. They're out. But you should go
14 to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and
15 you check, and you're making sure. How you
16 know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check
17 and you looking at, you looking into the cell.
18 How you know an inmate don't have his window
19 covered (Indiscernible *00:53:49)? Why you got
20 your window covered? Open the door. So, yes.
21 But in SHU, it's every cell.
22 MR. : Okay. So, the lieutenant
23 does a round. Has to check every cell.
24 MR. : The same thing as unit team.
25 MR. : All right. And then
EFTA00118937
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 thcn, that's every shift needed to do that,
2 too. Correct?
3 MR. : Day watch, evening watch,
4 and morning watch.
5 MR. : Is that unit team, as
6 well?
7 MR. : Unit team has to do it -. A
8 unit team has to do rounds once a day.
9 MR. : Once every 24 hours.
10 MR. : Right.
11 MR. : Okay.
12 MR. : But remember, that's the
13 unit team. So, that means it wasn't just me.
14 It was me. . And (Phonetic Sp.
15 *00:54:21).
16 MR. : Okay.
17 MR. : And then -.
18 MR. : So, each one of them has
19 to do it?
20 MR. : That is correct.
21 MR. : Okay.
22 MR. : Until they changed our
23 They just changed our unit manager's manual
24 that says a unit team. Which means, now, I
25 could do rounds for everybody. I can do rounds
EFTA00118938
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73
1 for . I could do rounds for . And I
2 just have to send them the information here.
3 So, I can do rounds for them. That's in the
4 new unit manager's manual.
5 MR. : Now, aside from phone
6 calls, what is a unit team member, or manager,
7 checking in with the inmates on? What is the,
8 like, what is the goal of checking in with the
9 inmates?
10 MR. : We're doing is reports. So,
11 disciplinary action. So, we go there. An
12 inmate has -. That's why he's in SHU.
13 Disciplinary action. So, we do incident
14 reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot
15 of inmates from visiting can't set up their
16 visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So,
17 they would have to fill out a form, who they
18 want. And then, we take that form and send it
19 to trust fund, who they would then add those
20 names to the visiting list. But they would
21 have to already be in the inmates' central
22 file, if it's on those. So, we do visiting,
23 incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate
24 remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And
25 listen to their problems. So, that's why we
EFTA00118939
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 had to go to SHU every day.
2 MR. : Now, did you have
3 anything to do with, like, cellmates?
4 MR. : No. The only time we would
5 get involved with cellmate is when it was just,
6 like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So,
7 if the psychologist says, this person needs a
8 cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an
9 inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an
10 inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know
11 four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would
12 aril be, like, this is a good fit for him.
13 If this guy is a sex offender, and he's
14 not a sex offender predator, he's just a sex
15 offender. And he shouldn't be with nobody who
16 is a predator. He can be with another sex
17 offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who
18 is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like,
19 you know what? I know him. He used to be in
20 my unit. So, I would give them, like, the
21 psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell
22 with this inmate.
23 So, yes, we would have input, as far as
24 that, because we know the inmates. The unit
25 team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like,
EFTA00118940
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1 the captain, for him to know an inmate, even
2 though he's doing his rounds, he don't know the
3 inmate more than unit team. So, yes, we would
4 have input to psychology, and we did have input
5 of who could go in with Epstein. We did have
6 input.
7 MR. : Oh, you did? Did you,
8 yourself, have input?
9 MR. : No. That was then.
10 MR. -: . Okay.
11 MR. : Yeah.
12 MR. : But you're the one who
13 brought him back that day. So, at that time,
14 around 7:00 p.m., did you notice that his
15 cellmate was not there?
16 MR. : I knew his cellmate was in
17 court first thing in the morning. And
18 everybody did.
19 MR. : Well, that's the
20 interesting thing, because he wasn't in court.
21 He was transferred.
22 MR. : Right. But originally, his
23 cellmate would do the same thing, go to court,
24 whatever. But remember, I don't do the SENTRY
25 transactions.
EFTA00118941
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Okay.
2 MR. : So, we was told he went to
3 court. Right? So --
4 MR. : Who told everybody that?
5 Because in the court list, it said WAB, and it
6 was transferred to GO.
7 MR. : WAB is court.
8 MR. : WAB is With All
9 Belongings.
10 MR. : Mm-hmm.
11 MR. : Court is court.
12 MR. : Right. But they Here,
13 they call - and once again, this is my first
14 high rise, first pre-trial --
15 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16 MR. : -- when they say an inmate
17 is WAB, this is me. I've never been to a high-
18 rise. So, I'm thinking, okay, he goes to
19 court, and then he gets transferred. That's
20 me. And that's my honest truth. Like, I don't
21 know what WA -. I don't know what that means.
22 So, people would say, oh, his cellee is out in
23 court. I mean, his cellee is out in court.
24 Okay. That doesn't mean, because his cellee is
25 out in court, he still needs a cellmate.
EFTA00118942
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Wow.
2 MR. : And the thing --
3 MR. : That's - it could be
4 still out at court, though, at 7:00.
5 MR. : Okay. Then here's the
6 thing. Okay. Let's say your inmate is out in
7 court. Okay? And typically, the right way.
8 And I will say this about MCC. How they was
9 doing this. Now, we didn't have that -. We
10 have the holding cells now. We didn't have
11 them before. They just put them there. I
12 guess after this incident. But you would then
13 - me personally - I would then put that inmate,
14 and that inmate was in a good area, with
15 officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put
16 that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that
17 cell. But I would - me personally - I would
18 probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute
19 round, and that's just me, until his cellmate
20 get there.
21 MR. : So, who was it that
22 actually put Epstein in his cell?
23 MR. : I wasn't there.
24 MR. : Oh, so, when you came
25 back from 7:00, at 7:00 p.m. with him --
EFTA00118943
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78
1 MR. : Hmm.
2 MR. : -- you weren't there when
3 he was actually placed in the cell?
4 MR. : No. I wasn't there.
5 MR. : All right. So, did you
6 even know that the cellmate wasn't in there,
7 then? You knew - you said - you knew he was at
8 court. But, like, you said everybody knew.
9 MR. : At 7:00, he didn't have a
10 cellmate. I knew his cellmate was not there.
11 I knew that.
12 MR. : So, and you knew he
13 wasn't coming back at that point?
14 MR. : I didn't know.
15 MR. : Oh.
16 MR. : I didn't know. I honestly
17 didn't know.
18 MR. : Okay.
19 MR. : I just know that he wasn't
20 there. And my thing is, I thought he was in
21 court. And I know dudes can come back 8:00,
22 9:00 at night. So, that was my thing. But at
23 the same time, I knew he still should have had
24 a cellmate.
25 MR. : Right.
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1 MR. : It don't matter. Let's say
2 you don't have a cellmate. Once again, if your
3 cellmate is in court, it's just up here, just
4 like I'm not taking excuses for what I did.
5 You know he's suspect. Everybody knows that.
6 Okay. So, if you're going to put him there,
7 there's a couple of ways you can do it. I will
8 put him there and say, okay, guess what? We're
9 doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back
10 from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the
11 best thing going, going right now. That I've
12 seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him
13 in there.
14 MR. : Right.
15 MR. : Leave him in R&D.
16 MR. : So, was it a conversation
17 at all when you came back with, okay, where is
18 his cellmate?
19 MR. : I didn't. I don't typically
20 ask for a cellmate. I basically -. The only
21 thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to
22 have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with
23 a cellmate.
24 MR. : No, no, no. I mean, on
25 that 7:00 p.m., on August 9th, 2019 --
EFTA00118945
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Mm-hmm.
2 MR. : -- when you came back.
3 Was that a conversation within the SHU, with
4 , Noel. Was it
5 MR. -•
6 MR. . No.
7 MR. : Oh, was the --
8 MR. : Yeah.
9 MR.
10 MR. : -- yeah.
11 MR. : Okay. Was that a
12 conversation that was had at all?
13 MR. : I don't - me. It's been too
14 long - I don't recall. But I know for a fact
15 that an inmate should have a cellmate, but like
16 I said, if he's to in court -.
17 MR. : But that wasn't your
18 purview, though? Or was that?
19 MR. : I'm not sure.
20 MR. : Okay.
21 MR. : I can't recall.
22 MR. : So, as far as going back,
23 I thought you said everybody knew he was at
24 court. So, our understanding, through talking
25 with R&D, and other lieutenants and officers,
EFTA00118946
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 was you get the court list, the court
2 production list, it will say, like, you know,
3 , court --
4 MR. : Mm-hmm.
5 MR. : -- that means he went to
6 court, and he's coming back.
7 MR. : Mm-hmm.
8 MR. : If it says WAB,
9 that means you know he's leaving the
10 institution. He's not coming back.
11 MR. : Well, who gets that court
12 list?
13 MR. : The SHU staff members.
14 The lieutenants. Sorry. I'm just --
15 MR. : The SHU don't get it.
16 MR. : -- well, SHU gets it
17 because they have to produce those individuals.
18 So, they get it so that they know who to
19 produce.
20 MR. : So, which court list are you
21 talking about? The one that's created by R&D,
22 or the list that R&D receives?
23 MR. : So, R&D creates one, and
24 provides it to the housing units so that they
25 can produce their inmates.
EFTA00118947
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1 MR. : Okay. But they put it on
2 the computer. It's not -. It's something.
3 It's something that they would not print.
4 MR. : Now, internal has a
5 printed copy, and they go --
6 MR. : That is correct.
7 MR. : -- right, and they
8 provide it to the housing units.
9 MR. : For court. Yes. That is
10 correct.
11 MR. : Well, for WAB and court.
12 MR. : That is correct.
13 MR. : All right.
14 MR. : Yes. They have that in the
15 morning. Yes.
16 MR. : So, if in this instance,
17 was on there, but it was listed as WAB --
18 MR. : Mm-hmm.
19 MR. : -- not court, there are -
20
21 MR. : Right.
22 MR. -: -- individuals that are
23 listed as court, but he was listed as WAB.
24 MR. : That is correct.
25 MR. : So, what you're saying is
EFTA00118948
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1 that, what was your understanding of the WAS?
2 MR. : Court. Because - and the
3 reason why - is because I didn't see the list.
4 MR. : Okay.
5 MR. : Right? So, we're hearing,
6 you just mentioned just now, that he was WAB.
7 We're hearing, oh, his cellee is in court. So,
8 that's all I remember, all day, because the
9 main thing was him coming back, his cellmate
10 coming back.
11 MR. : And that was spoken
12 about?
13 MR. : Yeah.
14 MR. : That he was in court?
15 MR. : Yeah.
16 MR. : And coming back?
17 MR. : Because had not -. Let's
18 say I come in at 11:00 to 7:00, right, I'm the
19 duty officer.
20 MR. : Mm-hmm.
21 MR. : And let's say I know he's
22 down there talking to his attorney, and I knew
23 I had actual - and regardless of the fact, now,
24 this, I won't do - if I know an inmate needs a
25 cellmate, and his cellmate didn't go to court,
EFTA00118949
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1 I, as the duty officer, would ensure that he
2 move with somebody. I promise you that.
3 That's just -. I do it right now. I do it
4 now. When I have an inmate right now, in our
5 suicide watch (Indiscernible *01:03:01).
6 (Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he
7 comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I
8 would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee.
9 If he don't find a cellee, and then I'm
10 interviewing that cellee, I need to find out
11 what kind of cellmate he's putting in there
12 with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy
13 -. But I've done it. And that's something I
14 will never go against, where if I know an
15 inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to
16 make sure he has a cellmate.
17 MR. : So, on this note, whereas
18 Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his
19 cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was,
20 early in the morning, you know, leaves the
21 institution, listed on the court production
22 list as WAB. In your unit manager experience,
23 who was responsible for saying, he's WAB, he's
24 not going to court, he's WAB, he's transferring
25 from here, and there is emails from the U.S.
EFTA00118950
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1 Marshal Service that clearly show, the day
2 before, that he is transferring to GO.
3 MR. : Mm-hmm.
4 MR. : Whose ultimately
5 responsibility was that, at that point?
6 MR. : R&D, and this is, R&D is
7 responsible repoonaibc1 for saying, okay, he's
8 WAB, he's transferring. Once again, I never
9 knew what WAB is. I don't. This is my - like
10 I said - this is my first high rise.
11 MR. : Okay.
12 MR. : So, he goes out or whatever.
13 It's R&D's responsibility to say, hey, this guy
14 is WAB. He's not coming back. He getting
15 transferred or whatever. Also, too, if that
16 was my inmate. So, I'm not sure even
17 received something saying that he don't have a
18 cellmate. So, at that time, if did
19 receive something, because they would have sent
20 it to me if he was my inmate. been there
21 forever. She knows. She knows. She's been
22 the unit manager. She's been the case manager
23 there. So, she would know, okay, you don't got
24 no cellmate. She could have got with a
25 psychologist and said, hey, you know, Epstein's
EFTA00118951
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1 celimate left at 9:00 in the morning, or 8:00
2 in the morning.
3 MR. : So, would it be --
4 MR. : He needs a celimate.
5 MR. so, would it have been
6 actual responsibility, it seems like?
7 MR. : It would have been two
8 responsibilities. R&D first, and then, if they
9 sent it to , yes, to say to
10 psychologist, hey, his cellmate left. He needs
11 a cellee. Then once we tell psychology, it is
12 then psychology's responsibility to go to the
13 captain and say, hey, this guy needs a
14 cellmate.
15 MR. : Okay. So, it wasn't,
16 like, the SHU staff members, or the operations
17 lieutenant, it was actually the unit manager
18 who was responsible for that individual?
19 MR. : It goes from R&D, who they -
20 Let's say they send the list, and the
21 lieutenant gets it, too.
22 MR. : Do you know who -.
23 Sorry. is Epstein's guy. Who was
24 guy?
25 MR. : He had to be because
EFTA00118952
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1 he wasn't mine. I know who is, but he
2 wasn't mine.
3 MR. : And where is now,
4 do you know?
5 MR. : She is - she's working from
6 the house - but she does here, right here.
7 What's this -? MCC. The CCM office.
8 MR. : What is that?
9 MR. : It's this office. That' r,.
10 Okay, you know
11 MR. : Yeah, right here --
12 MR. : where this building
13 MR. -: . -- at the MDC?
14 MR. : yeah. The CCM office is
15 on the east building.
16 MR. : Oh, the one next to the Third
17 Avenue?
18 MR. : Yeah.
19 MR. : Okay.
20 MR. : So --
21 MR. : Well, what's her -?
22 MR. : but she works from home.
23 MR. : What is her position now?
24 MR. : CCM. I think she's -. I
25 think she's I want to -. She's an 11. So,
EFTA00118953
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 she took a bus down from --
2 MR. : And what are you, a 12?
3 MR. : -- yeah. We were both 12s.
4 and she saw an opportunity had opened because
5 she just lost her father. Her mother is sick.
6 So, she basically -. So, she works -. She
7 works out of home. I think she has to report
8 there once a week, or once a month. But yeah,
9 she works out of home.
10 MR. : Right.
11 MR. : But she still works for the
12 BOP.
13 MR. : So, your unit team
14 experience tells you that the actual way it
15 should have worked, and the ideal circumstance,
16 was R&D should have told her, she should have
17 told the captain.
18 MR. : That is correct. Or, and it
19 could have been, let's say, everybody gets this
20 list. I know I will get it. So,
21 captain. So, let's say the captain, or the
22 lieutenant's office get it. The lieutenant's
23 office, they get it because they know all the
24 transfers. They know who is leaving. They
25 could have known, hey, this guy is leaving.
EFTA00118954
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1 They could have notified psychology. Anyone of
2 us has supervisors, who had that list, should
3 have notified psychology in the morning. It
4 could have been -.
5 MR. : Is there one group that
6 should have, though, versus could have?
7 Because if R&D is giving that list to
8 everybody, is there one, is there one group,
9 either unit team, or ops lieutenant --
10 MR. : The person I'm going to put,
11 that if they had a SHU lieutenant, it's going
12 to be the SHU lieutenant.
13 MR. : Right.
14 MR. : Because the SHU lieutenant,
15 like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a
16 lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU
17 lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this
18 list, you know, this guy leaving. He don't got
19 no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I
20 already know, Epstein is in court, while he's
21 downstairs, right? He probably be down there
22 until about, let's say 7:00, 8:00. Before he
23 come up here, he have a cellmate. That's
24 automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU
25 lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn't
EFTA00118955
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1 there, it's the operations lieutenant. Who
2 would then notify the captain and psychology,
3 hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which
4 then, if they would have did it early enough,
5 when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have
6 went back in that cell, and he would have had a
7 cellmate.
8 MR. : Absolutely. So, the
9 actual way it should have worked is, the SHU
10 lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the
11 captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the
12 captain.
13 MR. : That is correct. It's never
14 our responsibility. Because that inmate, he
15 belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain.
16 SHU is the captain. That's the captain's baby.
17 If you got a SHU lieutenant, it's the SHU
18 lieutenants. That's mines. So, I know all my
19 inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the
20 cellmate left. Okay. Let's get the cellmate
21 for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey,
22 left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay.
23 Let's make sure we don't pick somebody like
24 Tartaglione, or somebody else who's going to,
25 you know what I mean? Get accused of doing
EFTA00118956
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 something. Okay. We'll pick a cellmate.
2 MR. : So, two things off that.
3 One, so, when you previously said that it
4 should have been R&D to to the
5 captain, are you kind of re-thinking that?
6 MR. : R&D, at least to the SHU
7 lieutenant. Everything going to be SHU
8 lieutenant or captain.
9 MR. : And in this case, the SHU
10 lieutenant is not there.
11 MR. : Operations.
12 MR. : So, you're saying R&D
13 should have told operations?
14 MR. : I'm quite sure they did.
15 Remember, everything goes to operations because
16
17 MR. : Well, yeah, yeah, the:
18 got the list. So, all --
19 MR. : Right.
20 MR. : -- these people get
21 lists.
22 MR. : Right.
23 MR. : So, where does the unit -
24 ? So, are you thinking the unit team actually
25 doesn't fall into that notification --
EFTA00118957
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : We don't.
2 MR. : -- versus not?
3 MR. : We don't. But let's say, if
4 - and the reason why I say we don't, but we
5 still do - let's say, if I knew it was my
6 inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and
7 then, I'm going to give you an example. All
8 these guys that's come in over here, right? I
9 get the list in the morning. They come here
10 every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they're
11 going into just quarantine unityeia. So, the
12 process here, I had to find out the process
13 when I got here. I get the list.
14 (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is
15 over there, she does all the bed assignments.
16 So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed
17 assignments, because technically, they are my
18 inmates, I do their assignments. So, long
19 story short, she says to us, she does it
20 because she only have 20 inmates. She's been
21 doing since she's been here. Okay. So, that's
22 something less I have to do. But I still have
23 to make sure those inmates, because they come
24 into my unit, all the cells are working. All
25 the lights are working in the cell.
EFTA00118958
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1 Everything.
2 So, that's my responsibility. That is my
3 responsibility. That is my unit. It's still
4 can fall on the unit team, but is it our
5 responsibility? I would say no, because SHU
6 belongs to the SHU lieutenant. Really, the
7 captain, who belongs to the SHU lieutenant,
8 then operations.
9 MR. : SO --
10 MR. : That's how it really goes.
11 MR. : -- do you think, though,
12 that has any responsibility for notifying
13 that left, and knowing that was
14 Epstein's -?
15 MR. : I wouldn't put it on - and
16 I'm not just saying this because even if it was
17 me - that's not my responsibility. Like, it's
18 not onto me, because that inmate is in SHU. If
19 he's in my unit, yes. Like, we do have inmates
20 in their units who can't be by themselves, too.
21 MR. : Okay.
22 MR. : That's my responsibility.
23 He's in SHU. That's the captain's
24 responsibility.
25 MR. : Okay. And then, the
EFTA00118959
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1 second follow up to that, was you mentioned
2 Tartaglione, and the things that, you know,
3 were being talked about. What is your
4 understanding of what happened with Epstein and
5 Tartaglione?
6 MR. : The only thing I remember is
7 - and this is when I first met Tartaglione. I
8 didn't know anything about him. I didn't know
9 his background. Anything. It was just
10 alleged, and this is something that I heard,
11 that he choked Epstein out. That's the only
12 thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS
13 investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and
14 that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit,
15 like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever.
16 He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was
17 trying to get to me, caught up, I don't get
18 into that. I was, like, whatever. He was
19 just, like, no, I never did that. And you
20 think I would do something like that? And I'm
21 working on my case? All right. No problem.
22 Never, ever talked about them again.
23 MR. : So
24 MR. : That was it.
25 MR. : -- did you ever kind of
EFTA00118960
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 reconcile that, that you heard, maybe,
2 Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus,
3 did you also hear that Epstein tried to commit
4 suicide?
5 MR. : The only thing I heard, and
6 like I said, was the Tartaglione thing, because
7 I knew it was an investigation. And I knew
8 Because my question was, well, why did this guy
9 move out the cell? That's when I heard it
10 through staff. Oh, yeah. He moved out the
11 cell because they were saying Tartaglione
12 assaulted him. And then, I knew because they
13 had FBI agents called in, and interviewed
14 Tartaglione. So, I knew that.
15 MR. : Okay.
16 MR. : Like, that he was
17 interviewed.
18 MR. : Right. And did you know,
19 though --
20 MR. : That he tried to --
21 MR. : -- that Epstein was
22 MR. commit suicide?
23 MR. : -- placed on suicide
24 watch?
25 MR. : Yes.
EFTA00118961
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : So, was it your
2 understanding that he attempted to commit
3 suicide, or that his cellmate tried to harm
4 him?
5 MR. : The only thing I know is
6 that he was placed on suicide watch. Remember,
7 he wasn't my inmate. So, that's the only thing
8 I remember about that incident.
9 MR. : And whose inmate was he?
10 MR. -:
11 MR. : So, that was also a
12 inmate.
13 MR. : Who you talking about?
14 MR. : Tartaglione.
15 MR. : Tartaglione. Yeah. At that
16 time, he was inmate. And then, he
17 became my inmate.
18 MR. : Okay. So --
19 MR. : Yeah.
20 MR. : -- at the time, though
21 MR. -: and -.
22 MR. : -- Epstein, , and
23 Tartaglione were all inmates?
24 MR. : That is correct.
25 MR. : Okay. I got nothing
EFTA00118962
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 else.
2 MR. : I just wanted to clarify.
3 MR. : Yeah.
4 MR. : You mentioned that - going
5 back to this phone call - you mentioned the
6 captain said to monitor and log the calls. But
7 there was no books.
8 MR. : Mm-hmm.
9 MR. : There was no book to keep the
10 log.
11 MR. : Mm-hmm.
12 MR. : What exactly did the captain
13 mean when he said monitor and log, when there
14 was no book to write the log in? What do you
15 think he meant by that?
16 MR. : Log it in the book, that
17 when there is no book.
18 MR. : So, was there supposed to
19 be a book?
20 MR. : Yes.
21 MR. : Okay. So, he --
22 MR. : And once again, I made that
23 book. I'm the one -. There wasn't no books.
24 I made all those books that's there today. I
25 made those books.
EFTA00118963
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1 MR. : After the Epstein incident?
2 MR. : Yes.
3 MR. : And at that point, did the
4 captain know that there was no books?
5 MR. : He's the captain. So, I'm
6 going to say yes.
7 MR. : Okay.
8 MR. : But do you remember him
9 saying monitor and log it?
10 MR. : I kind of remember it.
11 Like, as you guys saying it - remember, it
12 happened so long - but yes, what I know was, I
13 mean, I didn't know there was no book at the
14 time until I went up to SHU and didn't see no
15 book. Because it would have been logged.
16 MR. : And you had to practice that,
17 if you gave a legal call, you would actually
18 log it on?
19 MR. : And that's the reason why I
20 actually made the -. I actually made the book
21 up. And then, today, there is a book in there
22 for legal calls and social calls. Today.
23 MR. : Mm-hmm.
24 MR. : If you go up there now.
25 MR. : That's not shutting off.
EFTA00118964
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 Sorry about that.
2 MR. : Yeah.
3 MR. : Okay.
4 MR. : I was going to move on.
5 There was another --
6 MR. : Oh, please.
7 MR. -- so, then, I'm going to -
8 well passed it, too, a portion.
9 MR. : Mm-hmm.
10 MR. "After OCME (Phonetic Sp.
11 *01:14:44)," and I think that stands for the
12 Office of Chief Medical Examiner, "Departed
13 with Epstein's body, returned to MCC,
14 and wrote a memo containing a timeline of
15 events, and a recap of the previous nights'
16 phone call." Now, I have a copy of the memo
17 here.
18 MR. : Mm-hmm.
19 MR. : At least, this is the copy _
20 had.
21 MR. : Mm-hmm.
22 MR. : I'm going to read this. The
23 memorandum for file, Metropolitan Correctional
24 Center, August 10th, 2019. From N.
25 That's you?
EFTA00118965
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1 MR. : Mm-hmm.
2 MR. : Unit manager. Subject:
3 Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054.
4 "This memorandum is in regards of inmate
5 Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On
6 August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein,
7 concerning him making a call to his family. I
8 told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility
9 around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to
10 shorten his attorney visitation to make his
11 social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to
12 Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed
13 inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and
14 escorted the phone for him to make the social
15 call.
16 I placed the phone in the first jack on
17 the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained
18 to me that he didn't have his phone set up to
19 use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate
20 Epstein who he was calling. He stated his
21 mother. I remember dialing the number starting
22 with (347), but the number was not notated."
23 It says "notated." I'm guessing it says not.
24 You meant not notated?
25 MR. : And it actually was, but
EFTA00118966
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1 when I wrote the number down, you know how you
2 write it down on a piece of paper and put it in
3 your pocket, well, I couldn't find it. So,
4 there was no number. But I remember, vaguely,
5 what the number started with, because I
6 actually wrote it down, and I was going to -
7 that next day - ask the captain why we don't
8 have a logbook, and here's the numbers that he
9 actually called her. So.
10 MR. "Inmate Epstein began talking
11 on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate
12 Epstein's call after 15 minutes. They
13 complied." Is that the memo you wrote?
14 MR. : That is the memo I wrote.
15 MR. : Okay. Just, anything we show
16 you, which would be, in this case, the memo,
17 just initial it, and put today's date on it.
18 Today is September 21st. Here's a pen.
19 MR. : Mm-hmm. The time?
20 MR. : You don't need the time.
21 Just the date and the initial. That's fine.
22 Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So
23 bear with me. provided this to Piv
24 , who is also new to the MCC. Captain
25 (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed
EFTA00118967
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1 , but responded that he couldn't
2 talk about the situation. The only colleague
3 whose phone number has is AW
4 because he had to use his personal phone to
5 email her his timeline of events, and pictures
6 of Epstein's body, prior to its transport by
7 OCME." Now, you said you - this states that
8 you used your personal phone to email pictures
9 of Epstein's body. Why did you use your
10 personal phone to take Epstein's -?
11 MR. : For one, R&D is supposed to
12 come out there. R&D is supposed to come out
13 there and fingerprint them. They came out
14 there. They fingerprinted and that was it.
15 Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they
16 want to know when we're leaving, because
17 sent me out there. So, I had to
18 stay with the body until the actual coroner
19 came. The coroner came. So, what I did was,
20 yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes,
21 I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving.
22 This is his body.
23 Where I had proof that the inmate was
24 deceased, and he wasn't walking off somewhere
25 else. Because all the speculation now and in
EFTA00118968
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1 the news that he's not dead. So, I did that.
2 Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to
from my phone. This is, boom, boom,
4 boom. I left the hospital at this time,
5 arrived back at the institution at this time.
6 This is when they took his body and placed it
7 in here. This is a lot. This is where they
8 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to
9 leave.
10 MR. : Were you instructed by
11 to take pictures?
12 MR. : I'm trying to think. It's
13 been so long. I could have. But I know I had
14 a reason why I took them.
15 MR. : And it was practice for
16 somebody to take pictures like that?
17 MR. : I would have did it for
18 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is
19 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the
20 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we
21 have a camera from the institution.
22 MR. : Was there a --
23 MR. : You see what I'm saying?
24 MR. : -- was there a camera this
25 time? Was there a camera this time?
EFTA00118969
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1 MR. : No.
2 MR. : Okay.
3 MR. : But it - once again - they
4 brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a
5 camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave
6 it with us (Indiscernible *01:19:31). I was
7 coming back to the institution. Because they
8 have a - each R&D has a briefcase, and in that
9 brief case is a camera, everything that you're
10 supposed to fingerprint an inmate on, and all
11 that stuff. And they have it for a reason, for
12 inmates that die. So, they could have left
13 that and said, hey, , when you guys
14 leave, you got to bring it back anyway, I'm
15 coming back to the institution. I'm going to
16 leave this briefcase with you. I would have,
17 then, took the pictures on that. But they
18 didn't.
19 MR. : So, they left with the
20 camera?
21 MR. : They left with everything.
22 MR. : And the phone number that you
23 texted to AW , was that her
24 personal or -?
25 MR. : That (804), if I'm correct,
EFTA00118970
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1 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP
2 cell number. I don't know if it was (804).
3 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was
4 two numbers. But I knew I only
one number, and I think, if it was (804),
6 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone.
7 MR. : Okay. And I'm going to keep
8 reading.
9 MR. : So, you texted her, not
10 emailed her. Correct?
11 MR. : No. But I did text her.
12 But the pictures went to her phone.
13 MR. : Her phone. So, texted
14 her --
15 MR. : Yeah.
16 MR. : -- not email, because
17 doesn't it say email in there?
18 MR. : He said he emailed her his
19 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein's
20 body, prior to its transport by OCME.
21 MR. : Right.
22 MR. : So, did you email it to her,
23 or -?
24 MR. : It was email. Yeah. It was
25 text.
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1 MR. : So, you texted the pictures,
2 and emailed her
3 MR. : That is correct.
4 MR. -- the timeline of events?
5 MR. "After sending these
6 pictures, deleted them from his phone.
7 didn't speak, text, or email with
8 anyone else except his wife, who also works at
9 the MCC, in the food services section." Did
10 you forward those pictures to anybody else?
11 MR. : No.
12 MR. : Did you tell anyone that you
13 had those pictures?
14 MR. : No.
15 MR. : Or share them anywhere?
16 MR. : No.
17 MR. : Okay.
18 MR. : And you don't have them?
19 And you deleted them
20 MR. : No.
21 MR. : -- those photos.
22 MR. : You're free to look.
23 MR. : No, no, no. No. That's
24 fine.
25 MR. : No, I'm just saying.
EFTA00118972
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Yeah.
2 MR. : I mean, I'm not -. Listen.
3 Trust me.
4 MR. : No, no. We're just going
5 to say --
6 MR. : I want to get them --
7 MR. : -- if you have them, can
8 you send them to us?
9 MR. : -- no. No. I am not -.
10 Listen. No. I deleted them that day.
11 MR. : That's all I had in terms of
12 questions. Do you have anything?
13 MR. : Yeah. So, speaking of,
14 like, pictures of the -. That was the
15 hospital. Correct?
16 MR. : Mm-hmm.
17 MR. : Do you know if anyone was
18 there filming at the hospital?
19 MR. : Remember, there were so many
20 people. I can't recall because my biggest
21 thing was - with those officers - was to guara
22 that body. Now, do I believe that people was
23 there? There was people there.
24 MR. : No, I mean, like, was
25 that, like, you know how, like, if there is a,
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1 you know, some kind of a use of force that
2 you've got to use against your institution
3 (Indiscernible *01:21:51) film, was someone
4 MR. : No, no, no.
5 MR. : -- (Indiscernible
6 *01:21:54).
7 MR. : From us?
8 MR. : Yeah, yeah.
9 MR. : No.
10 MR. : So, no one was
11 MR. : No.
12 MR. : -- filming from the BOP?
13 MR. : No.
14 MR. : Okay.
15 MR. : There was people from the
16 outside, though. I know that for a fact.
17 MR. : From where?
18 MR. : From the outside.
19 MR. : Outside. Okay.
20 MR. : Yeah.
21 MR. : Do you know if Epstein
22 was deceased prior to leaving the MCC?
23 MR. : I wasn't there. I was the
24 duty officer. I was called by
25 And the only thing told me was,
EFTA00118974
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1 hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She
2 said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. I
3 was, like, okay. When I got there, he was
4 already at the hospital. He was deceased then.
5 So, she told me to report to the hospital, and
6 that's when I reported, and I noticed his
7 deceased body.
8 MR. : Do you know if, is there
9 any, like, rule, or unofficial or official,
10 that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the
11 MCC, or at the BOP facility?
12 MR. : That. There's not a policy.
13 They technically says it, but this, this rule
14 was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule.
15 when I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at
16 Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there.
17 The policy states it's not us. Our medical
18 people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So,
19 let's say if an inmate, (Indiscernible
20 *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a
21 licensed, practiced. They can announce that
22 person dead - and I've seen it all the time -
23 at the jail. It's just common for them to say,
24 oh, he didn't die here. They always say that.
25 MR. : Do you --
EFTA00118975
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1 MR. : But -.
2 MR. : -- do you believe, from
3 what you know now, two years later, that he was
4 deceased while he was here, at the MCC?
5 MR. : I believe it.
6 MR. : Okay.
7 MR. : I definitely believe it.
8 MR. : So, he wasn't still alive
9 when he left?
10 MR. : No.
11 MR. : Okay.
12 MR. : And that's just, when I got
13 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no
14 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my
15 27 years, this is not my first time around a
16 dead inmate. So, I've seen inmates fall out,
17 and die. So, there's no way. And when I got
18 to the hospital, because they was transporting
19 him, I met them at the hospital. So -.
20 MR. : So, did you see them take
21 him out of the ambulance?
22 MR. : When I met them at the
23 hospital, he was -. When I got to the
24 hospital, you know how you - he was already out
25 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe,
EFTA00118976
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1 secured area in the hospital room. But he was
2 already deceased.
3 MR. : Do you know if, at that
4 time, what he was wearing?
5 MR. : I can't recall. I can just
6 -. Whatever was on the video over the news,
7 that's what he was wearing. Because I mean,
8 that is on that there, with the thing in his
9 mouth. That's what he was wearing.
10 MR. : Okay. And then, as far
11 as, like, you know, all of the speculation
12 that's out there, do you have any information
13 that would suggest that Epstein did not take
14 his own life?
15 MR. : I don't because I wasn't
16 there. You know, and, you know, what I
17 speculate is totally different. I mean, it is
18 what it is.
19 MR. : Well, what is your
20 speculation?
21 MR. : I just believe that -.
22 don't know how they went in the room. So, I
23 wasn't there, of how they went in the room.
24 You know, because, you know, when the doctor
25 say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took
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1 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and
2 the only way you can get -. I don't care if
3 that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not
4 doing it by yourself.
5 So, I don't know how they entered the
6 room. But policy states, when you go in the
7 room, you need to wait for a lieutenant.
8 Period. And you can't just pop that door.
9 Because how do you know that inmate is not
10 still living where he is trying to kill you,
11 and then escape? Or you definitely need help.
12 That's why you have to wait for a lieutenant,
13 because that lieutenant has to give you
14 instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift
15 that person, where if you go - to me - there is
16 no way, if it was two or three people, and we
17 picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the
18 news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22).
19 I just think, me personally, and hadn't
20 heard anything, but I just think one person was
21 trying to do it by itself, and this, that's no
22 the proper way. And that's just my opinion.
23 MR. : Right.
24 MR. : Because in all the suicides,
25 and I've seen - I was at, remember, I was at
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1 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I've seen numerous, and
2 I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at
3 least three or four people. Midnight, I
4 understand, at night, you only have, but it
5 don't matter. These inmates are locked down.
6 So, they can -. You can -. If I have a
7 hanging, they're already told. I'm already
8 telling people, you know to vacate that post.
9 Yes.
10 Anything can happen up there, but I would
11 rather have three or four people with me, in
12 the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because I
13 don't know what's going on. You know, we heard
14 all the stuff that went on witwhcn I
15 (Indiscernible *01:27:09) peppy, so definitely,
16 I don't want something happening at midnight,
17 when you could just vacate your post, come up
18 there, and respond.
19 MR. : So, is kind of what
20 you're saying, that, like, by having one
21 officer enter the cell, to respond --
22 MR. : Should have never happened.
23 MR. : -- to Epstein, that could
24 actually cause more harm --
25 MR. : Of course.
EFTA00118979
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1 MR. : -- are you talking about
2 physically, though, too, not only the ruse
3 teese (Phonetic Sp. *01:27:27) of, you know,
4 this person could overpower you, and now have
5 you as a hostage, but you could become - that
6 person who was attempting to hang themself, or
7 hanging themself
8 MR. : Would it --- --
9 MR. : -- could it become more
10 physical --
11 MR. : That is correct.
12 MR. : -- during the attempt.
13 MR. : Because what if - my thing
14 is this - what if he was almost there, wasn't
15 deceased, and what if you're trying to lift
16 him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and
17 you -. Because if, you know, remember, when
18 they did the autopsy, then I would say, there's
19 no way he's going to break that where, unless,
20 you know, they was trying to say, you know, we
21 killed them, unless one person is trying to do
22 it. Epstein wasn't 140 pounds. He was 200
23 something. So, there is no way I could lift
24 that dude. There's no way. So, I would never
25 go in by myself. So, that's my speculation,
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1 where somebody tried to do it by themselves,
2 cover it up, and that's what I see. Maybe I'm
3 wrong. But that's my speculation. That's
4 always going to be my speculation. Because --
5 MR. : So --
6 MR. : -- I've been doing this for
7 too long.
8 MR. : -- so, you're speculating
9 that the individual who went in could have
10 harmed him more than helped him, but do you
11 have any reason to believe that anyone,
12 including that staff member, are actually the
13 one that harmed him in the first place? Like,
14 do you know what I'm saying?
15 MR. : Honestly, with them two, it
16 could have been anything. And that's just me.
17 It could have been. It could have been any.
18 Listen. I've seen a lot in the BOP. It could
19 have been anything. I don't know.
20 MR. : Okay.
21 MR. : It could have been anything.
22 MR. : Did you ever hear
23 anything about, like, letting one inmate's cell
24 door open, while also letting Epstein's cell
25 open --
EFTA00118981
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1 MR. : No.
2 MR. : -- so that --
3 MR. : No.
4 MR. : -- anything like that -?
5 MR. : No.
6 MR. : Okay.
7 MR. : Have I heard it in the BOP?
8 Yes. In my 27 years. But in Epstein's case,
9 no.
10 MR. : Okay. So, that's never
11 been a rumor that you've heard, that another
12 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein?
13 MR. : I mean, you hear it, not in
14 the BOP, you hear it on the outside. I never
15 heard it on the BOP. Never heard staff, you
16 know, speculating that. Never.
17 MR. : Okay.
18 MR. : Because if I would have,
19 probably would have wrote a memo about it.
20 MR. : All right.
21 MR. : Can I ask a question on that?
22 MR. : Mm-hmm.
23 MR. : You said you've seen inmates
24 hanging themselves before. Right? You've
25 seen, you've been in that situation before.
EFTA00118982
LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
1 MR. : Many times.
2 MR. : How -? Is it possible for,
3 if you're responding, you go in with a couple
4 of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord
5 off -?
6 MR. : No. We don't do that. In
7 all my lieutenants' life, and I was a
8 lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the
9 fact, but mine, we're taught this. There's no
10 ifs, ands, or buts. You're taught to go in
11 with enough people. One person, if it's two
12 inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if
13 it's day watch, and you should have at least
14 ten people. That's just like if you're having
15 a use of force. If there is one person, close
16 to five.
17 If you can't get five, you at least want
18 to have four. I'm not going to have three
19 people. I'm going to wait until they get
20 there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to
21 save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still,
22 you've got to look at your safety, and it's
23 really - when you're going to use of force,
24 it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to
25 one. So, you always kind of use that concept.
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1 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our
2 job is one person lift the body, you have a cut
3 down tool, which is here. I have one. And you
4 cut the inmate down. That's a cut down tool.
5 MR. : That's what they refer to as
6 a cutter?
7 MR. : That's considered a cut down
8 tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down
9 tool. You get them from Galls(Indiscernible
10 *01:30:55).
11 MR. : But if they say, oh, he
12 used a cutter to cut him down, that's what
13 they're talking about. Correct?
14 MR. : They had -. They didn't
15 have something like this. I guess the new
16 warden wanted to order some. They cut down
17 tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a
18 small little cut down tool where, let's say
19 you're cutting down something, to me, if yoe
20 don't hold that inmate upright, you're doing
21 more damage, because you're trying to cut it
22 down.
23 MR. : Okay.
24 MR. : So, you're doing like this,
25 and what are you doing? You're shaking
EFTA00118984
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1 whatever is on his neck, if it's tight, you're
2 shaking it down. These right here are actual
3 cut down tools, where you're going to go like
4 this one time, and it's just going to cut it.
5 So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he
6 is. Let's say you do have -. Every SHU has
7 cut down tools. Because they do.
8 But once again, who is responsible?
9 That's the captain. Checking equipment.
10 Making sure your equipment is not dull. After
11 two or three years, if you're not using
12 something, you're always supposed to check that
13 equipment. It's normal. And then, psychology,
14 they always do their mock m4e drills. They do
15 their moc4e—m4e drills, I think, quarterly. You
16 know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that
17 time, I would check myself, but I don't - me
18 personally - I would check myself. You just -.
19 You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a
20 hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this,
21 because once again, how does that look to me?
22 How does that look? Like, if they did have a
23 camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right.
24 MR. : Speaking of cameras, do
25 you have any information, or reason to believe,
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1 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in
2 the SHU?
3 MR. : Hmm. Actually, when I was
4 at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera
5 was working. And that's just me -. My -.
6 Because they even had cameras in the cell. I
7 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras
8 in the cell.
9 MR. : G-tier, and 10 South.
10 MR. : 10 South.
11 MR. : Right?
12 MR. : Hmm. I don't know if it was
13 just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier.
14 They had -. No. I don't want to say that.
15 They had -. Because when we went in some cells
16
17 MR. : Okay, that was the end of
18 the range, or each end of each range has a
19 camera.
20 MR. : No. I'm not talking about
21 that. You have No. I - listen - I've been
22 in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all
23 that. But they had some cameras in some cells,
24 and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand?
25 No. But they had those. I'm telling you they
EFTA00118986
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1 had them. Because I remember going in the
2 cell, taking the inmate out. On what's that?
3 You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the
4 bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and
5 show the camera. Because the inmate had, the
6 inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was,
7 like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm
8 telling you. This is, like, no more than,
9 like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue
10 off the -. So, and that was an old camera.
11 So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells.
12 MR. : So, you said six months ago,
13 from today or six months from the Epstein
14 incident?
15 MR. : No. From today, but those
16 cameras been -. Those are old cameras.
17 They're not, like -. I can tell the new
18 cameras are new cameras, I know how they look.
19 All the new cameras they just put in, that's an
20 old camera.
21 MR. : Was it --
22 MR. : And I -.
23 MR. in dry cell?
24 MR. : That was not in dry cell.
25 I'm telling you. It's probably there still
EFTA00118987
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1 now. It's - I'm telling you - it's an old
2 camera.
3 MR. : So, but do you have any
4 information that someone intentionally knocked
5 the cameras offline?
6 MR. : Hmm.
7 MR. : Or just your speculation?
8 MR. : My thing is, I can tell you
9 this, I knew when the cameras was working, no,
10 it wasn't the captain. But any time a camera
11 was down, like, there would be - how you say
12 it? - it will be -. It was almost, like,
13 nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So,
14 we would know. And then, it would be forced to
15 make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP.
16 So, if the cameras was down, especially
17 certain cameras, they wouldn't even let inmates
18 out. They won't let them out. Because we
19 can't see certain things. So, I don't
20 was shocked to see that cameras wasn't
21 was very shocked. Very. Because with those
22 cameras, I think you could have saw more, and
23 it could have either helped or hindered people.
24 It didn't matter. I would rather for the
25 cameras to work. I don't care whether it's
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1 there to get me or not. If the cameras was
2 working, I think the investigation would have
3 completed probably a long time ago.
4 MR. : Yeah. Do you know who
5 was in charge of the cameras?
6 MR. : The captain. Because it
7 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com
8 tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech.
9 Communication.
10 MR. : Facilities manager, but -
11
12 MR. : No. But it's still going to
13 be the captain because it's both of them
14 together, facilities manager and the captain,
15 because if something is not working, the
16 captain should know first.
17 MR. : But how would have the
18 captain, or the facilities manager, have found
19 out? Who would have told them?
20 MR. : Communications. They
21 should. Listen, if a camera is not working in
22 there, communications. That is - at that time,
23 it was . So, job is to report
24 that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number
25 seven, number eight in SHU was not working.
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1 Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But
2 that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's
3 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the
4 captain, then, could make that decision of what
5 they want to do. Of how they want to go about
6 things. That's his job. That's
7 communications.
8 MR. : Remember those initials
9 that we read earlier today? They're not
10 but whomever else would have been
11 checking --
12 MR. : I'm trying to think who --
13 MR. : -- out those, I think it
14 was the CMS or something like that.
15 MR. : The only person who was in
16 there then was . That I'm aware of.
17 MR. : No, that's who he would have
18 contacted as --
19 MR. : Yeah.
20 MR. : -- as (Indiscernible
21 *01:36:45).
22 MR. : But that was a BOP
23 person.
24 MR. : No. It's an office, I think.
25 MR. : Yeah.
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1 MR. : Oh.
2 MR. -: was the only
3 contractor, I mean, com, because they just
4 hired another person.
5 MR. : Okay.
6 MR. : And he wasn't Yeah.
7 MR. : So --
8 MR. : It was just
9 MR. would have been
10 the only person.
11 MR. : Yeah. It was just
12 MR. : Is there an office inside the
13 BOP called the CMS?
14 MR. : That's right by the -.
15 Where all the stuff is at? For the cameras and
16 all that. Where they -?
17 MR. : Was it called? The CMS.
18 We're just trying to figure out what that is.
19 MR. : Yeah. That's Camera
20 Maintenance -. Camera Maintenance System. So
21
22 MR. : So, it's a thing. Not a
23 person.
24 MR. : -- yeah, it's a thing. You
25 go --
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1 MR. : Okay.
2 MR. : -- you go right by the
3 lieutenant's office, and it's right in the back
4 of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) --
5 MR. : So, he probably --
6 MR. you open that door
7 MR. : -- checked in the CMS,
8 not checking with the, like --
9 MR. : Okay.
10 MR. : -- another person.
11 MR. : Well, he said he checked
12 with the team. Well, that's -. It could be
13 If he checked with the CMS, well, I only
14 remember system, but that would be somebody in
15 the region. But his office is there. Like, he
16 could open that office, if something is down,
17 he know why it's down. Then he would report
18 that to either somebody higher. Either
19 regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what's
20 going on? Like, central office, or somebody.
21 Just like the phones. If the phones are down,
22 it's the central office guy that usually fix
23 the phone. So, it could have been the central
24 office, or the regional office. So, that could
25 have been the CMS he was talking about.
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1 MR. : Go ahead. Sorry.
2 MR. : Just last clarifying. Just,
3 I know I asked you the question. Was it, do
4 you think it would have been possible if Thomas
5 walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there,
6 hanging? As one person, do you think he could
7 have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off
8 himself?
9 MR. : Ripped it.
10 MR. : Ripped it off.
11 MR. : Everybody was nervous at the
12 time. If I know for a fact I screwed up,
13 what's the first -? What's the first thing a
14 kid do that (Indiscernible *01:38:30)? Easily,
15 I'm going in by myself. I'm trying to rip this
16 off. I'm trying to get this dude because, I
17 already know I messed up. I was either
18 sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was
19 wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I
20 could see all the activity that this guy is
21 doing. All I have to do is go do a round.
22 That's it. So, if I'm not doing something, and
23 I know I messed up, I'm going to try to fix it.
24 MR. : Was it possible for him to
25 pull it off without a cutter?
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1 MR. : If the cutter wasn't
2 working. That sheet? No. It's hard as -.
3 Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know,
4 inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to.
5 So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole
6 hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to
7 take a sheet, and pull it, and you're going to
8 burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for
9 about a month. So, it's hard. Because my
10 understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it's
11 a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if
12 he had it knotted right, there's no way you
13 could take it down by your hand.
14 MR. : And if a cutter was not used,
15 if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it
16 off, you think that's not possible? You're
17 saying that's not possible?
18 MR. : Hmm. I saw what the media,
19 how his room was set up. Actually, I've been
20 up there. I saw it because they had the room
21 carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so
22 heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and
23 then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot
24 was still there, and you cut it, like this,
25 there's no way. There -. I don't -. Listen,
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1 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible
2 *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm
3 going to just pull a sheet, and just come in.
4 There's no way. There's no way.
5 MR. : Be similar to, like,
6 saying that he ripped a rope in half --
7 MR. : Yeah.
8 MR. : -- right?
9 MR. : Once again, these are little
10 ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed.
11 They had it tied tight enough to where I
12 couldn't do it in the knot (Indiscernible
13 *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole
14 hand. So, I had to -. That's why I wind up
15 getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had
16 burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep
17 scar. There is no way. There is And that,
18 I saw the spread. There is no way you're going
19 I yank a spread off to -. That you could
20 (Indiscernible *01:40:40). Unless it's coming,
21 unraveling from the actual knot. You know how
22 you do your shoelace?
23 MR. Yeah.
24 MR. : Yeah.
25 MR. : That's it. There's no way
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1 you're going to do it. There's no -. Not even
2 - the biggest person in there was - not
3 even he could probably do it.p y it opcn
4 MR. -: meaning --
5 MR.
6 MR.
7 MR. -:
8 MR. : Okay.
9 MR. : He can't even do it. A2 1
10 he's a big dude. There's no way.
11 MR. : Anything else?
12 MR. : Anything that we're
13 missing, that we should know about?
14 (Indiscernible *01:41:14).
15 MR. : You guys are right on point.
16 MR. : Well, you've been very
17 helpful. Thank you.
18 MR. : Thank you for taking the time
19 to talk to us today.
20 MR. : You're welcome.
21 MR. : If there is anything you can
22 think about in the future, if you think there's
23 any information that might help us in the
24 investigation, please feel free to reach out
25 MR. : No problem.
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1 MR. -- and share that
2 information.
3 MR. : But you sent it - let me
4 clarify, though, with the AW,
- you sent it to her, you sent those
6 pictures to her government phone. Correct?
7 MR. : That is correct.
8 MR. : Okay.
9 MR. : And her - and like I said
10 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:41:38).
11 MR. : -- if it was (840), I think
12 it was a -. I don't -. I didn't --
13 MR. -- (804) or (840)?
14 MR. : (840).
15 MR. : (840).
16 MR. : I think that's her.
17 Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come
18 from one institution to another, they can
19 actually keep their government phone.
20 MR. : Okay.
21 MR. : They just register it with
22 the agency here.
23 MR. Okay. Perfect. All right.
24 Well, thank you very much.
25 MR. Yes. This is Special Agent
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1 . The time is 2:32 p.m. on
2 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the
3 interview.
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1 CERTIFICATE
2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages
3 represent an accurate transcript of the
4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings
5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the
6 Inspector General in the matter of:
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