EFTA00058871

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 27, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 26 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00058871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00058872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 : Okay. Mm-hmm. 8 : This interview with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - is it 10 11 -: 12 : Is being conducted as 13 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 14 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 15 Today's date is October 27th, 2021, and the 16 time is 1:53 p.m. This interview is being 17 conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? 18 : 515. 19 : 515? 20 : Yes. 21 UNKNOWN MALE: Madison Avenue. 31st 22 floor. 23 : Okay. 515 Madison 24 Avenue, 31st floor. New York, New York. Also 25 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent EFTA00058873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 As well as -- 2 UNKNOWN MALE: Edward Hayes. 3 4 attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? 5 MR. HAYES: Edward Hayes. H-A-Y-E-S. 6 First name E-D-W-A-R-D. 7 : Thank you, sir. Who is 8 representing . This interview will be recorded by me, 10 . could everyone please identify 11 themselves for the record, and spell your last 12 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior 13 Special Agent, 14 15 : This is DOJ Special Agent 16 . And these are my 17 credentials. 18 : Okay. And I am -- 19 MR. HAYES: I can't -- 20 21 MR. HAYES: -- I can't show you any 22 credentials. 23 . First name -- 24 : Okay. 25 . And EFTA00058874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 last name 2 apostrophe, 3 : Thank you, sir. Do you 4 happen to one -- 5 MR. HAYES: I still don't know how he 6 pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm 7 so arrogant that I don't carry identification. 8 You know what I mean? 9 : No. That's fine. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. But you are sitting 11 down here, you are willing to pay the fee. 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: You know who I am. 14 : So, I am looking at Mr. 15 law enforcement officer credentials. 16 And it has a picture. And a signature of the 17 gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you, 18 sir. And his attorney, do you mind - and 19 again, it's Edward -- 20 MR. HAYES: Edward 21 : -- Hayes. 22 MR. HAYES: -- Hayes. And I'm sorry, I 23 don't have -. I really -- 24 : No. That's quite all 25 right. EFTA00058875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: -- as I say -- 2 : But you are 3 MR. HAYES: -- Edward Hayes. I'm his 4 lawyer. 5 : -- perfect, and we're in 6 your office. 7 MR. HAYES: Right. 8 : This is an official 9 DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate 10 Jeffrey Epstein and the circumstances 11 surrounding it, and you are being asked to 12 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 13 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 14 the DOJ/OIG? 15 : Yes, I will. 16 : Thank you, sir. This is 17 the form that we have to do all interviews, 18 interviewees. 19 MR. HAYES: Is that form S? 20 : This is the OIG form III- 21 226/2. 22 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 23 : Okay. 24 : But it says is - I'm 25 going to read it for you - United States EFTA00058876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 2 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 3 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 4 Basis. It says, "You are being asked to 5 provide information as part of an investigation 6 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 7 General. This investigation is being conducted 8 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 9 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 10 performance failure, and security failure." 11 And this is what we are writing for everyone 12 that we speak to, just because we're looking at 13 it as a -- 14 : Right. 15 : -- whole of what 16 happened. "This is a voluntary interview. 17 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 18 questions. No disciplinary action will be 19 taken against you if you chose not to answer 20 questions. Any statements you furnish may be 21 used as evidence in any future criminal 22 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 23 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver 24 section. It says, "I understand the Warnings 25 and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00058877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 to make a statement and answer questions. No 2 promises or threats have been made to me, and 3 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 4 used against me." If you would like to take a 5 look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if 6 you want your attorney to look at it, he may, 7 as well. 8 : Okay. 9 : You can sign where it 10 says "Employee Signature." And then, also 11 write your name. I did read it verbatim. 12 MR. HAYES: I'm sure you did. Okay. 13 There is no place that said attorneys -- 14 : No, no, no. 15 MR. HAYES: -- signatures. 16 : It's not for you to sign. 17 It's for him, myself, and the witness. It's 18 just if you wanted to review it, or ask any -- 19 MR. HAYES: No, that's all right. 20 : -- questions about it. 21 MR. HAYES: That's all right. I do have a 22 question. 23 : Where do you want me to 24 sign? 25 MR. HAYES: In other words, if you say to EFTA00058878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him -- 2 : Oh, so, where it says -- 3 : Right side. 4 : -- "Employee Signature." 5 MR. HAYES: Do you have sex with ducks? 6 And so, I'm not going to answer that question. 7 That's the - he can't get in trouble for that? 8 : I won't be asking that 9 question. 10 MR. HAYES: I mean, (Indiscernible 11 *00:04:18). 12 : (Indiscernible *00:04:20). 13 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:04:22). 14 : (Indiscernible *00:04:21). 15 Okay. 16 : Under the interview that 17 we are doing right now, for voluntary 18 interviews, he doesn't have to answer our 19 questions. 20 : Okay. Great. 21 : All right. So, thank you 22 for signing that, sir. Did you have any 23 questions on the form? 24 : No, I don't. 25 : All right. So, I'm EFTA00058879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the 2 Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing 3 my name. 4 MR. HAYES: Oh, one thing. So, 5 ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at 6 Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, 7 as you saw, to which my body is falling apart. 9 I can't really 10 basically write. So, that's why -- 11 : Sure. 12 MR. HAYES: -- I'm not taking notes. But 13 I have a pretty good memory, so, yeah. 14 : All right. Great. 15 , can you just sign as the witness? 16 : Oh. 17 : Put your name and take 18 care of the rest of the form. 19 : This is Special Agent 20 I'm signing as the witness, and dating 21 it. 22 : All right. Before 23 starting the interview, I would like to place 24 you under oath. can you please 25 raise your right hand? EFTA00058880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Do you swear to tell the 3 truth and nothing but the truth during this 4 interview? 5 : I do. 6 : Thank you, sir. What is 7 your current home address? • • 9 10 : And what is your date of 11 birth? 12 -: 13 : And what -- 14 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 15 : -- what is the 16 MR. HAYES: I'm old. 17 : -- what are the last four 18 of your social security number? 19 -• 20 : Is it correct that you 21 were interviewed regarding the Epstein matter 22 on August 19th, 2019? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Or in August of 2019. 25 : I know it was some time in EFTA00058881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 August. 2 Correct. Okay. How long 3 have you worked for the BOP? 4 : 30 years. And August, 5 September, October, November. 30 years and 6 three months. 7 : All right. And what is 8 your current position with the BOP? 9 : I'm at FCI Fort 10 Dix. 11 : Okay. And what are your 12 -. You are , you said? 13 : Yes. 14 : Were you previously a 15 regional director? : I was the 17 18 : And how long have you 19 been at FCI Fort Dix? 20 : About two or three weeks. 21 Two weeks. 22 : Oh, so -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- it's a brand -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- new position? 2 ■ : It just got there. Yeah. 3 : Okay. How long were you 4 the 5 I got it in February. 6 : Okay. 7 : Of 2021. : Okay. And as the 9 , what were your duties and 10 responsibilities? 11 : Monitoring he activities of 12 the 20 institutions in the region, and, you 13 know, managing the administratives within the 14 , and, you know, showing that 15 institutions were running in an orderly 16 fashion. 17 : Now, did you supervise 18 the various wardens at those institutions? 19 : Yes. I was over there. I 20 was the rating official on some of the 21 evaluations. 22 : And were you a warden 23 prior to that position? 24 : Yes, I was. 25 : Where were you a warden? EFTA00058883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : In New York. MCC. The 2 Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York. 3 : And how long were you a 4 warden there? : I came from 7 I forget what it was. : Okay. 9 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- when you became the 12 regional director? 13 : No. The position 14 : Yeah. 15 : -- prior to that, I was 16 given -- 17 : Okay. : -- was 19 . And then, I went into the 20 21 : Okay. Sounds good. Ana 22 August of 2019, though, were yo at 23 the MCC New York? 24 : Yes, I was. 25 : Thank you, sir. And are EFTA00058884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who 2 was housed within the MCC in July and August of 3 2019? 4 : Yes. 5 : Yes. Okay. Great. What 6 I have here is an after-action report that was 7 written by the BOP. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Have you seen this? 10 : I have not seen that. 11 : All right. So, this is 12 not something that you are actually familiar 13 with? 14 : No, I am not. 15 : No one discussed any 16 findings or anything like that with you? 17 : No one. 18 : All right. I'm going to 19 set this aside just in case we need to, you 20 know, reference it. So, no role in the after- 21 action report? 22 : Nothing. I wasn't 23 interviewed. I wasn't spoken to. 24 : All right. Do you know 25 of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to EFTA00058885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 and at least about, like, providing the 2 information that they utilized to this report? 3 : No. 4 : No. Okay. Fair enough. 5 After the incident occurred, what was your role 6 with determining what happened and what didn't 7 happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 8 2019? 9 : Well, I responded to the 10 institution. At the time, when I got there, he 11 was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the 12 unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, 13 and I've always been trained, if it was a crime 14 scene, if you weren't particularly there, the 15 least amount of people that, you know, that go 16 through that crime scene, just don't go into 17 it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, 18 basically gathering information on what 19 happened, notifying the region, notifying the 20 FBI. The IG. 21 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 22 He's already got that phone call. 23 : Oh. 24 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I 25 mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00058886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. HAYES: -- like, fuck it, I'm going to 3 sell. Oh, okay. 4 : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: That's why we do it for the 6 next six months. 7 : So, there was a lot of 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 9 out the status of inmate Epstein. And things 10 more along those lines. 11 : Now, did you help with 12 gathering information, up until a certain 13 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 14 or did you continue to gather -? 15 : No, like, my boss was 16 calling me They needed 17 information. You know, starting a timeline on what happened. So, I had 19 there, and, you know, we would just 20 gather any information, and just, you know, 21 making sure that, you know, things that were 22 requested were being provided to them, any 23 information. 24 : And who was the regional 25 director at the time? EFTA00058887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 : It was , at the 2 time. 3 : Okay. And then, who was 4 your executive assistant? 5 -: 6 : Okay. 7 -• 8 -: 9 : Now, as part of our 10 investigation, we have to review everyone's 11 emails, with regard to the incident. 12 : Right. 13 : So, you mentioned that 14 you provided with timelines -- 15 : Yeah. 16 : -- and things like that. 17 So, these are just some timelines from - again, 18 Mr. Epstein, I believe, was found around 6:33 19 a.m. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : In the Special Housing 22 Unit. This is a timeline starting with, it 23 looks like, August 10th, 2019, at 11:04 a.m. 24 So, a few hours after the fact. It just says, 25 it says, "See below. Just to ensure you know EFTA00058888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 what is being relayed to DOJ." Now, is this -. 2 And then, what I have behind it is, these are 3 different timelines that are all updated 4 throughout the day. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Here is one that was at 7 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one 8 was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 9 12th. And then, the final one that we have is 10 the August 13th. So, these, do these look like 11 the timelines that you would have been 12 gathering information and providing to Mr. 13 14 : Okay. It looks like it. 15 : Now, where were you 16 actually obtaining this information from? You 17 said was obtaining it for you? 18 : He was the , we recall, 19 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 20 specifics on how we get it, because there was 21 so much going on. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : That, you know, I don't 24 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you 25 know, calling around and trying to find out. EFTA00058889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 So, I don't really recall the specifics. 2 : All right. Well, rather 3 than get into each one of these, because it 4 will take too long, I'll just do the very first 5 one. It says, it just says, "7/23/2019, at 6 1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in 7 cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge 8 staff initially." So, that is referring to the 9 first initial attempt that Epstein may have had 10 on his life? 11 : Let me see which one. Are 12 we talking the day of, or -? 13 : No. This is 14 : This is July. 15 : -- yeah, July, 16 (Indiscernible *00:12:40) 27. 17 : Oh, no. This is July. 18 : Yeah. 19 : This is the -- 20 : So, this is the -- 21 : -- no, the -- 22 : -- timeline. 23 : -- this would -. We would 24 have probably got this from the SIS 25 investigation. EFTA00058890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 From that. I thought you 3 were referring to the actual suicide. This is 4 5 : No. What I meant was -- 6 : -- this is -. 7 : -- just the information 8 that was all put in there, as far as -- 9 MR. HAYES: This was his first attempt. 10 : -- well, it's everything. 11 So, so, it starts July 23rd. The next one is 12 July 29th. And it goes 8/9/2019. And then, 13 and then, until -. So, it's only - there is 14 only a few. That's why I was going to read it, 15 just because there is only, like, three 16 paragraphs, four or five, four or five 17 paragraphs. 18 : So, this looks to me like we 19 sent the information to 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- and what he did was, 23 compile this information to send to DOJ. 24 : Okay. Oh, you're right. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 • -- 2 : This is not -- 3 : -- sent this to you. So, 4 he is saying -- 5 : -- yeah, this thing. 6 : -- "see below -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- just ensure you know." 9 : so, this is compiled off of 10 several different documents -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- which he condensed. 13 : So -- 14 : From -. 15 : -- he sent it to you. 16 I'm sorry. I read that incorrectly. So, 17 looking at this, then, let's just review it and 18 make each point, just make sure that it's what 19 you understand. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, 20 Epstein was found in a fetal position in cell, 21 breathing, but would not acknowledge staff 22 initially." 23 : Right. 24 • "After removed, he 25 interacted with staff and speaking to staff. EFTA00058892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 Neck was red. Placed on suicide watch, and 2 medical evaluation. Epstein receive daily 3 psychological evaluations while on suicide 4 watch." Was that your recollection, too? 5 : Yeah. That is what is in 6 the report. But I want to -- 7 : Sure. 8 : -- clarify what we went 9 You know, when I, when you first read it to me 10 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : I thought you meant the 13 day of. 14 : Yup, yup. 15 : So -- 16 : Well, we have that, too. 17 That's -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- that one is here. And 20 this one is from you, and this is what I 21 thought it was starting with, as well. 22 : Right. 23 : Because it said timeline 24 on it. From you to This initial 25 one actually talks about Friday, August 9th, EFTA00058893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 2019. It starts with, "8:00 a.m., inmate Reyes 2 Efrain, reg number 85993-054, departs for 3 court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. Reyes is Epstein's 4 celimate." 5 : Right. 6 : So, just starting with 7 that, then, I do have, we're going to get into 8 that later, but what does that tell you, if it 9 says inmate Reyes is departing for court, but 10 it also says WAB-USMS-SDNY? 11 : So, that would mean With All 12 Belongings. 13 : So, that means he's not 14 returning. Correct? 15 : Yes. 16 : All right. So, at 8:00 17 a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leaving, not 18 coming back to the MCC. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : All right. Great. And 21 then, it just goes on from there, what happens 22 throughout that day. And we're going to get 23 into these things more in detail, so I don't 24 want to go through each thing, because we're 25 going to have to get into it later. But so, EFTA00058894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 this information is stuff that you guys were 2 compiling, and you were providing to Mr. 3 4 : That would probably be 5 information that we sent up to him. 6 : Okay. Great. And then, 7 this is all the updates that occurred 8 afterwards. Let's see. Why is that 9 highlighted? So, here is something. Why, do 10 you know why in this one, it would be updated? 11 This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, 12 "7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the 13 warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong 14 place or something, and it says, "Inmate Reyes 15 released from court." 16 : (Indiscernible *00:16:27). 17 : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) 18 just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 19 10th. 20 : Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible 21 *00:16:34). 22 : Yeah. Okay. So, the 23 next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It 24 just shows the next update, you have that under 25 August - or Saturday - August 10th. EFTA00058895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : This can't be -. This 2 doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it 3 says, "PIO notified of incident by 4 I was off that day, on Friday. I wasn't at 5 work. 6 : Yeah. So, that's why I 7 think that they -. So, the next one I'm 8 looking at shows that that point is now under 9 Saturday, August 10th. 10 : Yeah. I don't know why it 11 would be -- 12 : So -- 13 : -- under Friday, because I 14 wasn't -- 15 : -- yeah. Okay. 16 I wasn't working. 17 : So, you were actually off 18 19 : I was off -- 20 : -- off on August 9th? 21 : -- on Friday. Yes. 22 : All right. You and 23 everyone else. 24 : Huh? 25 : Everybody was off that EFTA00058896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 day. 2 : Yeah. I didn't come back to 3 work until, when I got called, there was a 4 suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). 5 : Okay. So, all of this. 6 So, if I can have that back, if you don't mind. 7 So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to 8 assume that, as this went on, and specifically, 9 the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 10 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, 11 would be the most accurate timeline? 12 : It should be, but I don't 13 want to attest to it. I mean -- 14 : Yeah, yeah. 15 yeah. 16 : I'm just saying, based - 17 is there any reason for you to believe that the 18 timelines that were provided, or in any way, it 19 was determined that, you know, we should add a 20 point that actually didn't occur? Or is it 21 safe to assume that, the last one that was sent 22 would be the most accurate one? 23 : That's how it typically 24 works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't 25 attest to it -- EFTA00058897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : And yeah. 2 -- of whether it was 3 accurate, but typically, the last one that you 4 send usually, you know, if you have to make 5 corrections, you make the corrections. Add 6 information, if you have to. 7 : Sure. Okay. Great. 8 When I show you things, it's not attesting to 9 it, but -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : I'm going to ask you 12 just to initial and date, and that's just to 13 say, specifically, that this is the document we 14 looked at when we spoke. It is absolutely not 15 attesting to it. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : It's not saying that this 18 stuff is accurate. 19 : And so, I write the date -- 20 : If you could -- 21 and put reviewed on it, 22 or -? 23 : nope. Just your 24 initial and date. I'm just going to do this 25 last one, just the top of it. I'm not going to EFTA00058898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 have you do every single one. And I'm going to 2 put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and 3 I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. 4 : What's the date? The 18th? 5 : 27th. 6 : 27th. 7 : 10/27/21. 8 : Thank you, sir, for 9 initialing and dating that. All right. I'm 10 going to just actually, because it's the 11 timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me 12 because we might have to reference it. 13 MR. HAYES: I can tell -- 14 : All right. 15 MR. HAYES: -- this is going to be a long- 16 ass interview. 17 : It's going to be pretty 18 long. That's where I was trying to -- 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Just -. 20 : -- you know? All right. 21 So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you 22 recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate 23 Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? 24 : I recall the investigation 25 that couldn't determine if they had an EFTA00058899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt 2 at suicide. 3 : All right. So -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- so, something happened 6 on the July 23rd -- 7 : Something happened -- 8 where Mr. 9 in his cell. 10 : -- Epstein was found 11 with, like, a - was it a noose around his neck? 12 : It wasn't determined. It 13 was, you know, that he was laying in his cell, 14 but I don't recall the specifics of the report. 15 But I know it went back and forth where there 16 was a suicide attempt, or an issue with inmate 17 18 : Tartaglione. 19 : -- with - yeah - 20 Tartaglione. Yeah. 21 : All right. So, these are 22 emails that we reviewed with regard -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- to that incident. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 : So, this one is specifically from, it says 3 . Was that -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- your II? 6 : That is the II. 7 : Send it to you? 8 : Right. 9 : And this is a memo from, 10 it says is the 11 12 : Yeah. 13 14 : Right. This is where I 15 wanted to ask you if you knew 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- about this. It 18 specifically says, so, it was originally, 19 guess, sent from to 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- from to 23 you. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : And her note to you says, EFTA00058901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 "From the memo attached, the information I 2 received is not what I was told happened." 3 : Right. 4 So, what I wanted to know 5 is, and I guess, would you like me just to 6 refresh your memory, to really quickly read 7 what she said happened, so we can figure out 8 what it is that didn't happen? 9 : Okay. Yeah. 10 All right. So, this is 11 subject, "Possible suicide attempt." Again, 12 July 23rd, 2019. It says, "On July -". Let me 13 just sit back so you can just kind of read 14 along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to 15 you? 16 : No. No problem. 17 I'm vaccinated, just so 18 you know. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, at 19 approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance 20 on the Special Housing Unit was announced by 21 the control center. Upon my arrival, I was 22 informed that an inmate had attempted suicide 23 and proceeded to cell Z05-124LAD. I observed 24 inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, 25 lying in the fetal position on the floor of his EFTA00058902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. 2 He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. 3 I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him 4 flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His 5 neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no 6 further injuries to his person. An attempt was 7 made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to 8 stand on his own, with negative results. The 9 inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff 10 was directed to retrieve the stretcher. 11 As inmate Epstein was being placed on the 12 stretcher by responding staff, he would open 13 his eyes and observe staff. When staff made 14 eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut 15 his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit." 16 Was it that? The health care? 17 : Health. Health Services. 18 : "Dressed in a suicide 19 smock, and placed on suicide watch. While 20 awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, 21 inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and 22 began moving forward, as if was attempting to 23 fall over, head first. When I looked away, he 24 straightened up. As I turned to look at him 25 again, he attempted the same act. I laid him EFTA00058903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his 2 action or he would be placed in restraints for 3 his safety. 4 At that moment, he stated, `Okay. I won't 5 do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because 6 of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was 7 made to have the staff member observe inmate 8 Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make 9 staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke 10 with Officer Clark, who stated that Inmate 11 Epstein was alert and had indicated that his 12 cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514- 13 054, had attempted to kill him, and had been 14 harassing him. 15 He stated that the inmate had indicated 16 that he had informed his attorney of this 17 matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate 18 Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was 19 asleep with his headphones on when he felt 20 something hit his legs, and said, `Jeff. What 21 are you doing?' He didn't answer. So, he got 22 up, turned on the light," or - so, yeah - "He 23 got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a 24 string around his neck. 25 He stated that he then called the guards, EFTA00058904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 and they ran down. Upon further questioning, 2 inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the 3 bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein 4 because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on 5 the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when 6 he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or 7 stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that 8 Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to 9 the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't 10 responding. 11 He stated that the last time he saw him, 12 he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein 13 stated that he comes in from a legal visit at 14 approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a 15 copy of the Daily News. Nick was on the floor 16 reading the Daily News. He stated that he had 17 given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione 18 mentioned that he had been in court all day, in 19 Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was 20 carrying on. 21 At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, 22 as if he was making the story up, as he went 23 along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, 24 `These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is 25 inhumane. I wish I could report it. EFTA00058905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit 2 motherfucker.' He then turned to a page in the 3 Daily News that had his picture on it, and 4 stated that Epstein was worth 77 million 5 dollars. 6 Epstein then stated that he took his 7 picture, balled it up, and threw it in the 8 garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened 9 prior to staff's arrival. He stated that at 10 approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to 11 get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 12 minutes. He remembered walking back to his 13 bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his 14 cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen 15 staff, why didn't he respond when we were 16 calling out to him. 17 He stated that he only remembered hearing 18 himself making a noise like snoring. When 19 asked about the allegations against his 20 cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt 21 him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical doctor 22 -" how do you pronounce that name? 23 : Beaudouin. 24 : B-E-A-U-D-O-U-I-N. "Was 25 notified and briefed. It was determined that EFTA00058906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 no further medical attention was needed. A 2 medical assessment was not conducted at the 3 time of this incident, due to the fact there 4 was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. 5 Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate 6 Epstein was examined and treated by M-L-P-Y." 7 : Joaquin. 8 : Joaquin. J-O-A-Q-U-I-N. 9 "For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base 10 of his neck. One section on the front, with 11 marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his 12 left knee." So, sorry that that was so 13 lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, 14 is this, is this, does anything in here strike 15 you as inaccurate? 16 : No. 17 : So, when 18 says that in the attached memo, "The 19 information I received is not what I was told 20 happened." Do you know what she is referring 21 to? 22 : I think she - if I recall 23 that she told, that said that it was an 24 attempted suicide, but then she got any 25 additional information that it might have been EFTA00058907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 Epstein and Tartaglione having an issue in his 2 cell. 3 : And what, and my 4 understanding is that SIS came up with 5 inconclusive findings. 6 : In the investigation. 7 : What is your belief that 8 happened? 9 : I can't speculate. 10 : You don't 11 : I don't want I mean, I 12 don't know, you know, with the injuries on the 13 neck, I don't know if it was a suicide, and I 14 don't know, based on Epstein's statement, that 15 was something done to him. So, couldn't prove 16 what it was. 17 : Okay. And is it, is 18 there any reason for us to know or believe that 19 it was one or the other, though? I know you 20 are trying not to speculate, but -. 21 : I mean, I would, you know, 22 you have there be the medical department, who 23 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 24 you could say you come to a conclusion from 25 injuries, from physical injuries, but we EFTA00058908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 weren't even able to do that. 2 : So, according to the 3 medical assessment, your understanding is that 4 they weren't able to tell if someone -? 5 : That, from what I - if I can 6 - and I don't know - I read it - but I don't 7 know -. I remember on the report, they were 8 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 9 what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he 10 assaulted? 11 : And were you satisfied 12 with that response, or did you think that they 13 missed something? 14 : I think they looked into it. 15 And I think it was, you know, you couldn't look 16 into it any further. I mean, either 17 : Okay. 18 it was a suicide, or it 19 was assault. So, we separated them. 20 : Okay. But there is 21 So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or you 22 weren't, you know -? 23 : I mean, they interviewed 24 them. They asked the questions. You had the 25 medical assessment. So, I don't know what EFTA00058909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1- 1 other -- 2 : Sure. 3 : -- conclusions could have 4 been drawn from it. 5 : And what happened with 6 inmate Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July 7 23rd. 8 : I don't specifically 9 remember what happened. I know we separated 10 the both of them. He wasn't - and then, I know 11 he was on suicide watch. They placed him on a 12 watch. And then had psychology talk to him. 13 : Okay. So, just so, that 14 is just so you know, if you don't mind just 15 initialing and dating that one, that we just 16 read. Okay. So, this next one is from 17 to a 18 (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:05). 19 : She's a psychologist. 20 : Okay. And then, with 21 UCC. 22 : Right. 23 : It says, "SW, 24 chronological log, re: Epstein." It says, 25 was assigned to staff watch. EFTA00058910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 However, the wrong book was used. I am 2 companion log, in lieu of staff suicide watch 3 log." 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Was that something 6 normal? Was that an easy mistake? 7 : yeah, I could see it 8 happening because we have a log that the 9 inmate, you have an inmate companions that 10 watch inmates. So, they use the log. And 11 then, you have, if staff are going to sit on 12 someone, then they use a certain log. But the 13 fact that, you know, the documentation took 14 place, it was just, you know, it was just an 15 error. 16 : Okay. 17 : But they did document, so. 18 : Now, . Is 19 this that you, are you aware? 20 : I had . I don't 21 know which one it was. 22 : Okay. So, if I tell you 23 it was -- 24 : No, no, no. It had to be 25 , because if it was EFTA00058911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he would have been - his title is 2 3 : Okay. So, you don't 4 believe it was actually 5 : No. I think it was the 6 7 : It was 8 . Just from our records and from 9 speaking -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- with 12 : Can I see the log -- 13 : Sure. 14 how he opened the log? 15 : That is correct, right, 16 17 : Where does it show that he 18 started his shift? Because usually, when you 19 come on shift, you write -- 20 : This is what -- 21 : -- the name. 22 : -- was attached to that 23 email. 24 : Yeah. Typically, when you 25 start your shift, your start off, you know, EFTA00058912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 you're putting your name, if you are relieved, 2 or you assume suicide watch. 3 : So, here is the next 4 email, so you might be able to show me an 5 example of what you are referring to. It's 6 this email, is it the same thing you were CC'd, 7 and this is, like, maybe this is the real log 8 that maybe he should have been using. But 9 here, it shows all the other logs. 10 : So, this is 11 : 12 : See, this is what I mean by 13 when someone comes on duty, but this is what 14 they leave -- 15 : This is the -. 16 : -- they mix the book up. 17 But they must have wrote it in the suicide log. 18 But typically, when you come on, let's say the 19 shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full 20 name, as assuming the duties. 21 : Okay. 22 : And you typically say who 23 you relieved on there. 24 : All right. So, it looks 25 like they maybe didn't fill it out correctly. EFTA00058913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : They didn't fill it out 2 correctly. 3 : And so, our investigation 4 shows that it was 5 : Okay. 6 : -- that was on him on the 7 23rd. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : And that wasn't an "I 10 gotcha," whatsoever. My question was actually, 11 is the one that actually found 12 him on August 10th. Correct? 13 : Yes. 14 : And is that suspicious at 15 all to you, that he was the one that was 16 watching him on suicide watch, and then that he 17 is the one that found him on the 10th? 18 : No. I mean, typically, we 19 had so much overtime in the institution, that 20 and we go by when you sign up for it. So, 21 there is a program that you sign up for, and 22 don't know how the did. They might 23 have called them, then he signed up for it. 24 So, I don't know. I can't say if it was 25 suspicious or not. EFTA00058914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Sure. And then, all 2 these documents that we're reviewing right 3 here, on these two emails, what are they? 4 : Which one? 5 : Both of them. 6 : The suicide watch log? 7 : Yeah. So, is this 8 suicide watch log, as well as this? 9 : Yeah. The suicide 10 observation log, and this is, appears to be the 11 cover of a logbook, for suicide watch. 12 : Perfect. 13 : Okay. 14 : All right. Do you mind 15 just initial and dating this? And again, these 16 aren't trick questions -- 17 : Okay. 18 • -- I just don't want to, 19 like, put answers in your -. If I think it is 20 something, but maybe it's not, you might be 21 able to tell me what it actually is. 22 : This one, too? 23 : Yes, please. Thank you, 24 sir. And this is, this says psych ops. So, 25 this is another one of those emails. This one EFTA00058915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 is from to you. Also dated August 10th, 2 2019. It says, "Psych ops is discontinued or. 3 7/30/2018." I think she means 2019. Correct? 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 At 8:15 a.m. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 So, is this also part of 8 the suicide watch log? 9 : That is a log you would also 10 use. 11 : Okay. Great. And does 12 it say in there, I guess right here, "8:15 13 a.m., psych observation is being 14 discontinued."? 15 : Yes. 16 : Okay. Awesome. Do you 17 mind just initial and dating this? And 18 as I am giving these to you, can you try to 19 keep these in order with regard to -- 20 : I've just been stacking them. 21 : -- making a note. Don't 22 stack them on tip, though, keep them, like, 23 bundled together, so we know this is psych. 24 This is, like, the psych observation logbook. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 : So, if you can keep them, 2 and then write a note on them. 3 : Okay. 4 : So that when we are -. 5 After this thing is transcribed, we can keep 6 things in order. This one is regarding the 7 first attempt, and the one we read from 8 . And can you tell me, sir, what 9 this is? This is July 30th. So, it is that 10 same date that he came off of What am I 11 looking at here? 12 : So, this is -. Date, name, 13 signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is 14 -. Is this a entrance log to the Special 15 Housing Unit? 16 : I'm not sure. That's 17 what I'm saying. 18 : I'm just, I don't know. It 19 might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. 20 : These are all dates, but 21 at least up until 7/30, that he was in the 22 Special Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein. 23 So, I don't know if he would sign himself in. 24 : No, no. 25 : So -. EFTA00058917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 : I don't know. It might be 2 an entrance -- 3 : Or is it to the attorney 4 visits or something? 5 : -- it might be attorney 6 visits. Let me see. 7/30. G tall (Phonetic 7 Sp. *00:36:57). Signature. Inmate name. 8 Name. This might be an attorney log. Name. 9 Fall. Signature. Yeah. This might. This is 10 probably an attorney -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 the log into the attorney 13 room. I think that's probably it. 14 : Here is Epstein again. 15 It shows 7/30, 7/30, 7/30. 16 : The different attorneys. 17 He, you know, he could have had one attorney 18 that comes in early in the morning -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- and then, any time a new 21 one comes in, they have to sign in, saying who 22 you came to see. 23 : Okay. 24 : So, he had multiple 25 : So, this is -- EFTA00058918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- (Indiscernible 2 *00:37:46). 3 : -- an attorney log. 4 : This is an attorney log. He 5 usually had multiple attorneys. 6 : So, it wasn't Epstein 7 signing his name. They are 8 : No, no. 9 : -- saying they were 10 visiting this person. 11 : Whoever comes and visits has 12 to put who -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- they are visiting. 15 : So, the visitor logs were 16 for attorneys. 17 : Attorneys. Yeah. 18 : All right. You mind just 19 initial and dating that? And again, if 20 you want to write on here, just -- 21 : Okay. 22 : -- attorney logbook 23 visit. So, again, so that we can keep track of 24 what it is these things are. Now, is this the 25 same thing we just looked at? This looks like, EFTA00058919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 again, it says, "Inmate companion assumed 2 duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 3 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred 4 to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. 5 until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion 6 was utilized." 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : So, this one says July 9 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch 10 chronological log. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Inmate companion logs. 13 Does this tell you anything more about 14 , or anything different? What is this? 15 This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? 16 That's just he's on it? 17 : Yeah. It just says, you 18 know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. 19 You got category. I don't know what the MDS 20 is, but typically, it's an assignment. Like, I 21 could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he 22 was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, 23 this must be a medical term. Concerning his 24 medical status. 25 : Okay. Great. And then, EFTA00058920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 this is the first page, it looks like, of the 2 logbook. Does this tell you 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- anything different 5 than what we looked at before, or is this the 6 same thing? 7 : It's the same. It's an 8 inmate suicide watch -- 9 : Okay. 10 log. 11 : So, it doesn't say 12 on it, it just -- 13 : No. It says inmate 14 companion was watching him. 15 : Okay. You said inmate 16 Oh, so, this is an inmate companion instead of 17 18 : Yeah, yeah. 19 : -- the actual. Okay. 20 : You have -- 21 : I got you. So, whatever, 22 does it tell us which, who the inmate was, that 23 was his companion? 24 : Inmate companion Esteban 25 (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:51), and it has his number EFTA00058921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 right there. 2 : Okay. Great. 3 : Assumed responsibility for 4 inmate Epstein on -. 5 : Perfect. 6 : So, that's why I was telling 7 you, the staff one should read just like that, 8 too. 9 : All right. So, this one 10 is 7/23 is the actual inmate that was -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- Epstein's companion on 13 7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and 14 dating that? 15 : And this is right after the 16 incident. The first incident, right? 17 : This is - so, July 23rd 18 or the 24th - yes, this is when he was on 19 suicide watch, not on observation. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : And this is that, it 22 looks like this one is, again, it's from you to 23 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : It says psych ops/suicide EFTA00058922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 watch. And it looks like it's the difference 2 between the two. 3 : Right. 4 : In laymen's terms, what 5 is the difference between suicide watch and 6 psychological observation at the MCC, during 7 this time period when Epstein was on it? 8 : So, suicide watch is when we 9 have determined, or there is a possibility, 10 through what an individual is saying, that they 11 might cause self-harm to themselves. Psych ops 12 is, that person might not admit it, and we 13 might not have anything to say to put them on 14 suicide watch, so we just put them on what we 15 call psychological observation. 16 : And now, it was my 17 understanding -- 18 : (Indiscernible *00:41:11). 19 : -- it's basically the 20 same thing, aside from what the inmate is 21 allowed to have, such as clothes. 22 : That, too. 23 : Okay. So, is it same 24 unit, same room, same -- 25 : Same. EFTA00058923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- same procedures? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. The one thing that 4 I've learned more recently is, though, during 5 psychological observation, or I guess I should 6 ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as 7 psychological observation, is the inmate 8 allowed to have attorney visits? 9 : If they are on that watch, 10 no. 11 : What about during 12 psychological observation? 13 : I think it would be the same 14 thing, that they are not allowed to have. And 15 I'm not sure. Don't quote me to it. Because 16 typically, when they are on that, we don't have 17 it. 18 : Okay. Do you recall if 19 either yourself or anyone at the institution 20 was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or 21 Epstein's attorneys, asking that he be removed 22 from either psychological observation or 23 suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? 24 : They will always call. I 25 mean, they would. There was always a number EFTA00058924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 subject, whether it was to place him in general 2 population. So, I don't, you know, recall -. 3 : Do you remember ever 4 being called by a judge? 5 : No, I don't. I don't 6 recall. 7 : Okay. 8 : Speaking with a judge. 9 : All right. Because that 10 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 11 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 12 from one or the other. 13 : No. Judges wouldn't 14 typically call for that. 15 : But the attorneys 16 frequently would? 17 : Yeah, frequently, they 18 would, you know, call our legal department, 19 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 20 population. Why is he, you know, being housed 21 here? And just not him, if there was any type 22 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 23 type of requests you get from the attorney. 24 : Okay. And do you know if 25 those attorneys were made, though, when he was EFTA00058925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on either suicide watch or psychological 2 observations? 3 : I don't recall that. 4 : You don't recall. 5 : No. 6 : Sure. That's fine. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Do you know - I know you 9 said that, and you didn't think that inmates 10 typically could - but do you know if Mr. 11 Epstein visited with his attorneys during that 12 time, between the 23rd and the 30th of -- 13 : I don't know -- 14 : -- (Indiscernible 15 *00:43:28)? 16 : -- if he was on that status, 17 then he would not have been -- 18 : You don't believe so? 19 : I don't believe so. 20 : Okay. 21 : No. I don't believe so. 22 : No problem. All right. 23 So, this, this one again. Oh, do you mind 24 initial and dating that? 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 : Okay, , you can 2 file that accordingly. This one just goes back 3 to that first initial timeline, that looked 4 like it may have been a little messed up. The 5 initial email from you, it looks like it's a 6 psych ops. "The logbook shows he was released 7 on July 30th. He had an attorney visit, 8 starting at 8:20 a.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : He was there all day. 11 will send the attorney log next." And then, 12 response was, "The timeline we 13 sent DOJ says 7/29. Where did we get that 14 date?" So, are we confident that he stayed 15 until the 30th? 16 : He stayed until the 30th. 17 : Okay. So, was this just 18 an incorrect -- 19 : I think that was a typo. 20 : -- okay. Oh, sorry. Do 21 you mind initial and dating? 22 : Well, this answers your 23 previous question. 24 : What's that? 25 : About being on psych ops and EFTA00058927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 seeing an attorney. He didn't go until after 2 he got off. 3 : Well, it says that he had 4 an attorney visit -- 5 : Right. 6 : -- starting at 8:20 a.m., 7 but it doesn't say if he had any prior to that 8 time. 9 : Right. Oh, because he was 10 released on July 30th. 11 : Right. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, just saying, like, 14 yeah, he was released and -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- he was visiting with 17 his attorneys. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And that's something 20 we've had a little bit of a conflicting 21 information. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : We've heard that he 24 actually did have attorney visits during that 25 time. And we've heard that he didn't. So, EFTA00058928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 that's why I was wondering if you would be able 2 to clear that up at all, but you're not -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- to your recollection - 5 6 : No. 7 : -- he wouldn't have? 8 : Yeah. Typically, if you are 9 on that, you're not going to have an attorney 10 visit. 11 : And just talking to 12 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 13 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 14 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 15 that right. But do you think that maybe they 16 were mistaken? 17 : I'm just going from my 18 experience, like any other of the inmates that 19 we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an 20 attorney visit. 21 : Okay. Now, this, 22 speaking of psychology, that's the next point. 23 Let me just make sure that all the information 24 is on that incident. So, as far as 25 Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is EFTA00058929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 How do you think it's -? 2 : Tartaglione. 3 : Okay. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. So, did you have 6 any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as 7 Epstein's cellmate? 8 : We did. 9 : Okay. And how was that 10 selection made? 11 : So, we weren't able to get a 12 whole lot of people, you know, think that how 13 we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was 14 a white male. Another high-profile case. So, 15 and he is not, you know, there is this 16 misconception that he was a big hulking 17 bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something 18 pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and 19 frame. So, we said that would have been an 20 appropriate cellmate for him. 21 : And who made the 22 decision? 23 : To put them together? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : I did. EFTA00058930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 : Okay. Was it in 2 coordination with both the captain, as well as 3 4 : Everyone - yeah - would 5 discuss it, like, you know, I, obviously, I 6 sent it up the chain, to say, look who we're 7 going to make him his cellmate, and what was 8 the reasoning. 9 : So 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- in talking with the 12 captain, his recollection was that he brought 13 the three names, you discussed it with III 14 , he was present for that discussion, and 15 is the only one who said, I want 16 Tartaglione, put him with Tartaglione. Do you 17 recall it to be that way, or do you recall it 18 to be -? 19 : Which -? Well, are we 20 talking about Tartaglione? 21 : Oh, did that happen with 22 Reyes? 23 : Well, Reyes and - what do 24 you call it? - Reyes and, there were two names. 25 So, I talked to my boss about it. They wanted EFTA00058931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 to see the names. So, I don't know who they 2 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 3 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 4 the two inmates to the director's office. 5 Kevin Pistro (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And 6 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 7 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 8 about as far as if we had to choose between who 9 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 10 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 11 12 : Efrain Reyes? 13 : -- Reyes, that Reyes would 14 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 15 find anybody. 16 : Okay. So -- 17 : And then, they went up, and 18 then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes. 19 : Okay. So, Reyes was when 20 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 21 selection, but for -- 22 : Tartaglione. 23 : Tartaglione, that was 24 you? 25 : I mean, it was in EFTA00058932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, 2 the powers that be that this is who we're going 3 to be, and it came back and said, you know, 4 we're good for that. 5 : Okay. Do you know what 6 Tartaglione was in for? 7 : He had - I know it was a big 8 drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff 9 like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible 10 *00:48:45) -- 11 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 12 : -- huh? 13 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 14 : Some kind of narcotics. So, 15 he - and then, I don't - and I recall there was 16 murder involved, too. 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 : But he was a high-profile 19 case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there 20 that were trying to get in there, but you know, 21 they would have probably harmed him. I had 22 another pedophile in there, and everybody in 23 the unit, they know who's in the unit, I'm not 24 taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we 25 can't just arbitrarily force another inmate EFTA00058933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was, 2 you know, the best 3 MR. HAYES: The other inmates 4 : -- inmates -. 5 MR. HAYES: -- would not accept Epstein, 6 nor would not accept a pedophile. 7 : They weren't going to -. 8 They just weren't going to stab Epstein 9 *00:49:29). I don't know the reasons. But I 10 mean, I can't make the decisions and say, all 11 right, I'm going to force you to take this, and 12 then something happens to him, and then -. 13 : So, someone actually 14 spoke with Tartaglione and he said he was 15 willing to do it? 16 : And I'm not sure on there 17 who spoke to him, but I don't know. 18 : Okay. 19 : It might have been. But I 20 know we said we were going to put him in, and 21 this is, this is what -. And he didn't have 22 any issues. 23 : Okay. And if someone did 24 speak with him, who would that have been? 25 Would that have been EFTA00058934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : It might have been the 2 Shoot, (Indiscernible *00:50:02). 3 But it probably would have been the 4 but - 5 : Okay. 6 : -- you know, typically, you 7 know, we're going to make a move, and we're 8 putting somebody in there, we're not going to, 9 you know, sit down and consult with an inmate, 10 if that's okay with you. I mean 11 : Sure. 12 : -- we just have a feel of 13 the unit -- 14 : No. 15 : -- that, who is appropriate 16 to go in there, okay, I'm not going to put a 17 drug dealer in there with him. So, you know, 18 typically, another high-profile inmate would be 19 appropriate. 20 : Okay. Now, do you have 21 any reason to believe that Tartaglione did, in 22 fact, try to harm Epstein on July 23rd? 23 : Again, I can't speculate on 24 that. 25 : Sure. Just because - EFTA00058935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I mean -. 2 : -- it would be pure 3 speculation, if you did? 4 : Yeah. It would be. I would 5 be speculating on that. 6 : Okay. 7 : I can't -. 8 : Okay. 9 : Yeah. 10 : And you just prefer not 11 to do that? 12 : Yeah. I don't want to 13 speculate. 14 : Okay. Now, so, our 15 assessment from other people has been that 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Tartaglione was trying 18 to beat his case -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- and that he had every 21 reason in the world not to harm Epstein. And 22 that Tartaglione was actually the person who 23 notified the guards that Epstein was in need of 24 help. Is that what you -? Is that a correct 25 assessment? EFTA00058936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 MR. HAYES: Tartaglione wasn't in the cell 2 at the time. 3 : So -- 4 : On July 23rd, he was. 5 : -- he was. So, he -- 6 MR. HAYES: He was. Oh, I -- 7 : -- yeah. 8 MR. HAYES: -- yeah, right. 9 : Yeah. So, here's how I'm 10 going to put this. As far as Tartaglione, we 11 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn't 12 a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you 13 know, with a cellphone. You know, making 14 calls, you know, and circumventing his case, 15 and whatever. But so, I don't, I can't 16 speculate on, you know, whether he would do 17 something, or he wouldn't do something. So, 18 that was, you know, my dealings with 19 Tartaglione, when I was aware of him. Plus, 20 you know, his case. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : And the request from his 23 attorneys. 24 : Okay. So, following 25 Epstein's time on suicide watch and EFTA00058937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 psychological observation, was he placed back 2 in the SHU? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. So, and I 5 apologize to read all these, but this is just 6 again - we're not going to through them one by 7 one, but just to show what it is that we have 8 here. So, this one says it's from an 9 to Did I get this from you? 10 I think this is something that forwarded on. 11 MR. HAYES: She say even gave your own 12 drinking -- 13 : This one says, "Can you 14 send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide 15 attempt. Thanks." That was from 16 it looks like, sent it up. So, 17 said, "I need this ASAP." And it 18 says, "Here are his notes." 19 : So, he said (Phonetic 20 Sp. *00:52:59). I guess the regional is 21 requesting it. 22 : Okay. So, the region 23 wanted this? 24 : Yeah. 25 : So, this, is this what EFTA00058938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this is? Is this the psychology file of 2 Epstein? 3 : Those are clinical notes. 4 : So, these are all 5 clinical notes -- 6 : Yeah. 7 here? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Would this have been, 10 like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July 11 31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it 12 looks like these are clinical notes from the 13 day he got there -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- up until July 31st. 16 : Right. 17 : I wonder why. Why would 18 they only send until July 31st? Do you know? 19 : You said -- 20 : Not August. 21 : -- they sent from where? 22 : Well, it -- 23 : From -? 24 : -- started from the day 25 that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July EFTA00058939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 8th, 2019. 2 : Right. 3 : To July 31st, 2019. 4 : It's any encounter you have 5 with him. Any medical -- 6 : So, did they not -- 7 : -- (Indiscernible 8 *00:53:53). 9 : -- have any encounters 10 after July 31st, 2019? 11 MR. HAYES: Do you know? 12 : No. I am not aware of that 13 because it would only - they would only 14 annotate if they had encounters with him. 15 : Okay. So, you are 16 unaware of, after July 31st, if anyone had any 17 kind of, any psychology had any interactions 18 with him? 19 : No. If it's not in the BEMR 20 notes, and that, I guess they didn't have any. 21 : So, you would assume that 22 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- there wouldn't be? 25 Okay. Do you mind initialing? And do you know EFTA00058940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 why that would be? 2 : Hold on. If an inmate is 3 cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them 4 about it - but most inmates didn't, once you 5 are cleared off of suicide watch, they have 6 other things that they do. You can come down 7 and they give you some (Indiscernible 8 *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they 9 have other types of therapy, but it doesn't 10 necessarily have to be entered in as a medical 11 encounter. 12 : Okay. So, this is, so, 13 psychology could have been still meeting with 14 them, just not noted as a medical encounter? 15 : Yeah. You - I mean - you 16 see them, and you can just, like, if you have 17 patients, you will go, how is everything going? 18 You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm 19 okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a 20 medical encounter. 21 : Okay. So, your 22 involvement with this, being that he came off 23 of psychological observation on July 30th, 24 should psychology had interacted with him more 25 in that type of setting, where they would have EFTA00058941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been writing clinical notes? Or do you 2 : No. I think they -- 3 : -- or -? 4 : -- did everything. Because 5 they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on 6 the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive 7 whether he committed, you know, tried to -- 8 : Sure. 9 : -- attempted to commit 10 suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but 11 if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I 12 wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do 13 it, that's their assessment of it. 14 : Right. No. I guess what 15 I'm saying is that, I know you're not a 16 psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that 17 they cleared him to go back to the SHU -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- do you think that they 20 should have continued at least checking with 21 him, or no? 22 : Well, they probably cild. 23 mean, when -- 24 : Okay. 25 : -- you make your SHU rounds. EFTA00058942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 You know, seeing him in other parts of the 2 institution. So, and you would have to ask 3 them. But there were probably encounters with 4 him. 5 : Okay. 6 : But that didn't require 7 MR. HAYES: A report. 8 : -- a report, and a medical 9 annotation in there. 10 : Okay. So, this next 11 email, it talks about, it says, 12 ," and this is fro , ana 13 again -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- is he the coordinator? 16 Or, who is he? 17 : Oh. 18 : Oh, here it is. National 19 suicide prevention coordinator for the BOP. 20 : Right. 21 : It says, "Thank you for 22 supporting our scheduling of the psychological 23 reconstructive for inmate Epstein. I will be 24 joined by , (Phonetic Sp. 25 *00:56:44) EFTA00058943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 the . So, do you know if that 2 was ever completed? The actual suicide 3 reconstruction. 4 : They might have, but nobody 5 talked to me. 6 : Okay. They didn't talk 7 to you? 8 : Nah. 9 : Okay. Fair enough. And 10 then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks 11 like a template is attached here. 12 "(Indiscernible *00:57:00 national suicide 13 prevention program, suicide reconstruction 14 materials." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : Would have you been the 17 one that would have gathered these things for 18 him? 19 : No. You probably -. 20 Typically, when this happens, this comes from, 21 when I used to do them, I would make contact 22 with someone in the institution, to get it. 23 So, you might -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- have the executive EFTA00058944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 assistant -- 2 : Yeah. 3 get the information. 4 : So, it says, "I am 5 attaching a list of materials we use to 6 complete the reconstruction. We routinely take 7 these documents with us, so please ensure that 8 a copy of any documents you also need." 9 : Right. 10 : It says, "Your assistance 11 in gathering these documents, appreciate it, 12 will be helpful." So, you would just, you 13 would provide that to, like, or 14 someone? 15 : Yeah. We tell the 16 hey, I need you to gather this information, and 17 it might not be . It could be the 18 chief psychologist. Whoever is assigned to do 19 it. 20 : Okay. But as far as you 21 know, was that completed? Did he show up and 22 do that? 23 : I wasn't at the institution. 24 : Oh, okay. 25 : I -- EFTA00058945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, you -- 2 : I was removed from the 3 institution. 4 : -- when were you removed 5 from the institution? 6 : Monday. 7 : Monday, August 12th? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. That's what I was 10 kind of asking you before. Maybe I wasn't 11 clear with my question. I was wondering if 12 something happened to you after this, that you 13 were removed and no longer -- 14 : No. They just told me, go 15 report to the region. 16 : -- all right. So, as of 17 Monday, August 12th, 2019, you were no longer 18 at the MCC? 19 : I was no longer at the MCC. 20 : And did you ever go back 21 after that? 22 : No, I didn't. 23 : Okay. So, that was 24 Okay. 25 : Well, I did today, to go EFTA00058946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 park. 2 : Okay. But after this 3 instance, and you were not really involved 4 after that, then? 5 : That was it. I didn't have 6 any -. 7 MR. HAYES: Yeah. You check in today. 8 Did you just say? 9 : No, I had to park a vehicle, 10 because I had to -. I had the government 11 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so 12 parked there, and took the train out, 13 (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 14 : I think when we started, and 15 asked when you started at the regional 16 office, I think you mentioned 2020. 17 : So, the problem is, and he 18 was talking about job title. My job title 19 still remained the same. 20 : As 21 : As in New York, 22 and it wasn't removed until 2020. 23 : Okay. Well, now, but as of 24 August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the 25 region? EFTA00058947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. DRD (Phonetic Sp. 2 *00:59:14) came. I did my - when was it? - I 3 had an interview at the U.S. Attorney's Office. 4 And then, my boss came and said, hey, I'm, you 5 know, we're signing you up to the regional 6 office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why 7 I was being removed. And I was just told to go 8 up there. So, that's what transpired. 9 : Was there another in 10 place? 11 : They brought another one in. 12 : So, there was two people with 13 the title of at that point? 14 : Well, they had 15 (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:52), and 16 (Phonetic Sp. *01:00:01). She is. 17 : Okay. 18 : All right So, if you 19 don't mind, just initialing and dating that. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : We'll get that out of 22 your way. So, this looks like this answers our 23 question. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, this is an email from EFTA00058948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to yourself. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : And it just says, "FYI, 4 from Dr. , regarding her last interaction 5 with Epstein, prior to her departure on 6 Thursday." 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Dr. was the 9 psychologist at MCC? 10 : Yes. 11 : Correct? 12 : She was the chief 13 psychologist. 14 : Okay. Great. And it 15 says that, "I visited inmate Epstein in SHU on 16 Thursday." Thursday, meaning August 8th -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- 2019. "He was getting 19 ready to meet with his attorneys for the day, 20 so I had gone to visit him, right after the SHU 21 meeting. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : He had a cellmate at the 24 time, with whom I saw him interact with. He 25 did not report any medical, or any mental EFTA00058949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal 2 thoughts or intention. He was asking the 3 writer to go to general population and was 4 making requests for various leads he had at the 5 time. He wanted social calls without them 6 being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he 7 had left in the suicide watch area. 8 His mood was not depressed or anxious. 9 There were no signs of stress. He had planned 10 on meeting with his attorneys to work on his 11 legal situation." So, there is that. And 12 then, there is also, I don't know if this was 13 attached. , I don't know how this was 14 printed, but it also looks like all the 15 contacts. It says, "15 contacts in one month. 16 Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. 17 And after the -". It does say that there was a 18 contact that looks like, on the 31st. 19 MR. HAYES: What does he mean by 20 "contact"? 21 : A psychology contact. 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. 23 : And then, here's one, 24 8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 : -- being conducted. What 2 is SRA? Do you know? 3 : It's a seg group. 4 Segregation review. 5 MR. HAYES: Oh. 6 : So, it says -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- it says, "Court sent a 9 form. Suicidal tendencies." 10 : No. That must be a 11 psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. 12 If it says SRA, that must be for SHU. 13 : Okay. And it says, "On 14 August 1st, 2019, he denied any suicidality, 15 friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive 16 Jewish against his religion, still denied 17 knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when 18 he was discovered with a string loosely tied 19 around his neck. Said his incident report for 20 self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is 21 talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in 22 SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going 23 back to his normal life." And again, it say 24 that 8/8/ 2019 was with Dr. , what I just 25 EFTA00058951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Right. 2 -- read. And on 3 8/10/2019. So, I guess they did (Indiscernible 4 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible 5 *01:02:40). 6 : Yeah. You don't have to 7 always. 8 : So, yeah, then maybe 9 those weren't required. 10 : No. 11 : Yeah, do you mind, maybe 12 the bottom on this one? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : That wasn't attached to the 15 email. That was just a separate document. 16 : Oh, that's a separate 17 document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to 18 psychology? All right. And this is the last 19 one to cover what psychology. This was an 20 email that was sent out by a Darlene Imeri. 21 To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation 22 update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it 23 says, "Inmate Epstein is being taken off of 24 psych observation and needs to housed with an 25 appropriate cellmate." EFTA00058952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 Darlene, and it just 3 says everyone who is attached to this sent, 4 this was sent to. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Is this something that 7 they normally do, after someone comes off of 8 psych observation or suicide watch? Do they 9 send this out to everyone? Or was it a special 10 case for this? 11 : No. It's typical. 12 : That's typical? 13 : Typical. Because you have 14 to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, 15 everyone know, you know, the person is coming 16 off. And where to house them. Some go back to 17 their units. In his case, he was going back to 18 the Special Housing Unit. 19 : Okay. Great. Do you 20 mind just initial and dating that? And that 21 was - is it their job to determine if a 22 cellmate has to be housed with another 23 cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed 24 with another inmate. 25 : Well, typically, I mean, EFTA00058953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 it's just - if there's nothing in policy that 2 sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional 3 setting, if somebody has been on, you know, 4 attempted suicide, or attempted to self- 5 mutilation, you usually put them in with 6 someone. 7 : Okay. So, were you or 8 your staff involved with the decision to have 9 Epstein removed from suicide watch or 10 psychological observation? 11 : Psychology makes the 12 determination that the individual is, you know, 13 no longer suicidal. This is for any inmate. 14 : Sure. 15 : Is no longer suicidal. And 16 there is no reason for him to be on suicide 17 watch. So, they either get released wherever 18 they came from, whether it was the general 19 population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. 20 : So, on background on 21 that So, one of the individuals in psychology 22 department -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- who would meet with 25 Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, EFTA00058954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 one of the steps down with Dr. , as well 2 as II 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : And I was informed that 5 that is kind of pretty routine, that that is 6 conducted in coordination with executive staff 7 members. Is that -- 8 : Right. That is. 9 : -- so, that's where I 10 want to make sure that I'm understanding -- 11 : We do. 12 : -- what you are saying. 13 : But we also do, we have what 14 we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in 15 our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly 16 meeting, and if there are any issues, that's 17 brought up in the meeting. 18 : Okay. So, is it solely, 19 though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes 20 from, say, suicide watch to psych observation, 21 and again, psych observation back to a housing 22 unit? Is that their call, or can, does the 23 executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside 24 of psychology, have an influence on that? 25 : Psychology are the subject EFTA00058955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 matter experts. They are the doctors. They 2 release someone off of suicide watch. I can't 3 - if an individual is on suicide watch - I 4 can't turn around and come in there, and say, 5 take him off. 6 : Sure. 7 : I'm not a trained 8 psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on 9 there. But then, you know, after hours, or if 10 it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, 11 any staff member could put him on there. 12 : Okay. 13 : But as far as taking him 14 off, you have to have a medical reason, as far 15 as them coming off. 16 : So, in that interview 17 with that individual, they said the decision 18 was discussed with II and that 19 individual concurred with that decision. If 20 they didn't concur, though, would that matter 21 to them? 22 : What do you mean, if the II 23 didn't concur with it? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : I mean, I don't want to use EFTA00058956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're 2 keeping, they're keeping us informed, saying, 3 okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. 4 Now, let's say I come in and interject and say, 5 no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning 6 for putting him on there? 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : What medical degree do I 9 have to justify keeping an individual on 10 suicide watch? Because now, it could go the 11 other way. I decide to turn around and do 12 something like that, I would be having a 13 conversation with you about something else. 14 : Sure. 15 : So. 16 : Okay. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, is it more to keep 19 you apprise -- 20 : To keep us apprised -- 21 : -- if anything else? 22 you know, and saying, 23 hey, this is the way we're removing an 24 individual, and we move forward. I mean, 25 obviously, we will have questions. You know, EFTA00058957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 if we had questions. 2 MR. HAYES: Guys, I want to go for a 3 second. All right? 4 : Okay. 5 MR. HAYES: I got to go pee. 6 : Do you want us to 7 continue or wait? 8 MR. HAYES: No, just stay by me. Oh, 9 don't continue. I'll be right back. 10 : Absolutely. I'm going to 11 pause this recording then. It is currently 12 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 13 This is Special Agent , and I 14 am pausing the recording. 15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 16 off the record and back on the record). 17 : All right. The recorder 18 is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, 19 short break. , just reminding you 20 that you are under oath. 21 : Okay. 22 : All right. Sorry. 23 Address these. 24 : Oh. 25 : All right. So, the last EFTA00058958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 that we discussed was that psychology said that 2 Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this 3 is where we talked a little bit about it. It 4 sounded like the decision to have Efrain Reyes 5 placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made 6 at a higher level than yourself? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. And who made that 9 decision? 10 : I don't know. Listen. 11 know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually, 12 the two inmates that, that would kind of 13 figured out there might be a cellmate, we sent 14 those names to the director's office. 15 : Okay. 16 : And it was Kevin Pistro was 17 the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss 18 told me that they had to run it up to the 19 department. So, I don't know who was spoken to 20 in the department. And it got back, and my 21 boss said that, too, you know, that's a good 22 choice. 23 : Okay. 24 : Yeah. 25 : And that's EFTA00058959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 again? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. Great. But it was 4 based upon a list that you provided? 5 : Yeah. There were some 6 names. Because I - fast forward - I got a 7 call, and we were gearing towards getting him 8 out to general population. 9 : Oh, so, you wanted 10 Epstein to actually be in general pop? 11 : I didn't want -. That's 12 what typically happens. You know 13 : Sure. 14 : -- you don't want an inmate 15 in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot 16 of high-profile individuals that come in the 17 institution. You know, we do our intelligence 18 gathering, to see, okay, what would be an 19 appropriate unit for them to be in? And we 20 place them. And then, we monitor them. If, 21 you know, and that is how we move them into 22 general population. I get a call saying, hold 23 up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. 24 : And who called you? 25 MR. HAYES: Did he qualify as a pedophile? EFTA00058960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I don't I didn't 2 MR. HAYES: Okay. 3 : Read. But that's -. We 4 didn't -- 5 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 6 : -- you know, so that's not 7 feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So, 8 get a call, and they said hold up on that. He 9 needs to stay where he's at. 10 : Okay. 11 : So. 12 : And I'm sorry. Who was 13 it that called you to say stay? 14 -: . And then, 15 that's when I had to send up the names. 1 16 guess he had gotten some from the department. 17 I don't know who he talked to in the 18 department. 19 : Oh, so, coming out of 20 psych observation, you were looking to send him 21 back to general pop. 22 : No. 23 : Or not back to. Into. 24 : When he first came in, the 25 whole process was -- EFTA00058961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 : Oh, I see. 2 : -- to get him out to general 3 population. 4 : I gotcha. So, back, you 5 are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- 6 : Yeah, we're talking about -- 7 : -- that timeframe. 8 the whole thing, and 9 then, even, you know, coming out of psych 10 observations when he got in, the plan was still 11 to get him into general population. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : I mean, we had the attorneys 14 contacting our legal, why can't he be in 15 general population? 16 : Sure. 17 : So, and then, that is when I 18 got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't 19 know who he talked to in the department - but 20 it was, like, hold on. 21 : And on that note, I guess 22 this would be a good time to talk about this. 23 Being that it was ultimately decided that he go 24 into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit, 25 was it discussed at all that he be placed on EFTA00058962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs 2 inmates? 3 : So, here's the problems with 4 Ten South. It's the terrorist unit, and 5 there's SAMS things in there. The amount of 6 attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn't 7 have those attorneys coming up to that unit 8 every day, and, you know, breaching the 9 security of it, and then, tying up the movement 10 in there, because when an attorney comes in 11 there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it's 12 planned, and they are in there. Epstein's 13 attorneys were coming in early in the morning, 14 and weren't leaving until late at night. And 15 it was about four or five of them. So -- 16 MR. HAYES: And guess who's paying his 17 bill? 18 : -- right. That's not an 19 appropriate unit, and that's not what that unit 20 is for. 21 : Now, what about, like, 22 if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. 23 *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels 24 that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with 25 that, or did they have attorneys visiting them EFTA00058963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or no? 2 : They did, but it wasn't to 3 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 4 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 5 couple hours, they left. As it got close to 6 trial, then they would - you would see them 7 more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one the 8 attorneys, they were in there from the 9 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 10 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 11 the rooms. 12 : Mm-hmm. So -- 13 : So. 14 : -- the primary reason why 15 he was placed in Nine South was because of the 16 attorney visits? 17 : Well, not the attorney 18 visits, but that is the SAMS unit. 19 : Okay. 20 : And he's not a SAMs inmate. 21 And then -. 22 MR. HAYES: What's a SAMs unit? 23 : Special Administrative 24 Measures. That means, you know, strict 25 communication. And there's a lot that goes on EFTA00058964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 with that unit. So, he wasn't appropriate to 2 be up there. 3 : Now, were some of those 4 other high-profile inmates, though, such as El 5 Chapo, and who were some of the people that 6 were in there? 7 : Yeah. The terrorists up 8 there. 9 : But the non-terrorists. 10 Meaning, the people that -. There was a few -- 11 : Well, you had Schulte, but 12 he was in for espionage, and had a SAMs on him. 13 So, he -- 14 : Now, did El Chapo have a 15 SAMs on him? 16 : -- he had -. No. His 17 status was based on, and I know there was 18 (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status 19 : Sure. 20 and stuff. So, he was a 21 high profile person that had escaped from 22 another prison before -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 so, that was an 25 appropriate place to place him. EFTA00058965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I see. 2 : Schulte was in general 3 population, and a SAMs was placed on him by his 4 attorney -- 5 MR. HAYES: What was the other name again? 6 : -- Schulte. And he was 7 placed up there. 8 MR. HAYES: Can I ask you -- 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. HAYES: -- a totally irrelevant 11 question? 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. HAYES: What was El Chapo like? 14 : Just like any other inmate. 15 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 16 : Yeah. Just like any other 17 inmate. 18 MR. HAYES: Polite? 19 : Polite. You know, no 20 problems. But that wasn't the appropriate unit 21 to be housing inmate Epstein. 22 : Now, did you even have 23 the authority to place him in Ten South, if you 24 wanted to? 25 : I mean, I could have, but EFTA00058966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 would have had to have, you know, some 2 justification as to why I'm, I'm putting him up 3 there. And there would have been push back 4 from his attorneys. 5 : Okay. Because some 6 people had mentioned that, saying 7 doesn't even have the ability to do that. That 8 comes from a higher level. 9 : I mean -- 10 : Is that -- 11 : -- in essence -- 12 : -- accurate, or -? 13 in essence, it does 14 because I would have had to explain and justify 15 why, you know, certain inmates with certain 16 crimes are placed up there. Why am I placing 17 him? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And then, the fact that, you 20 know, he is a pre-trial individual, and needs 21 access to his attorneys, that unit is just too 22 restrictive for that. 23 : Now - and this is a total 24 Monday morning quarterback -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 : -- do you stand by the 2 decision that he would be in Nine South, or do 3 you think he should have been in Ten South, or 4 what are your thoughts on that? 5 : I think he was appropriately 6 placed. 7 : Okay. So, Nine South -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- was the -- 10 : That was the appropriate -- 11 : -- appropriate place for 12 him? 13 : -- place for him. 14 : Okay. 15 : Quick question. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Do you recall if there were 18 inmates in Ten South during that time? 19 : Where? 20 : In -- 21 : Yes, there were. 22 : -- yeah. Do you know who 23 those inmates were? 24 : El Chapo had left. I got 25 the one that ran the call with people in EFTA00058968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Brooklyn. He was there. 2 MR. HAYES: What was his name? 3 : I forget. 4 MR. HAYES: What did he do? What was he 5 in there for? 6 : That's the one that killed 7 the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran 8 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah. 9 : -- the vehicle into them. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah, and then the guy kicked 11 the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy -- 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). 14 : He was there. I remember 15 Schulte. There was another guy that was, it 16 had something to do with Osama Bin Laden. 17 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 18 : Who else? We had a younger 19 terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it 20 was -. They were all terrorists in, on 21 espionage charges. 22 : All right. So, this is 23 along what we were just discussing. It says 24 that, this is from an , who's just 25 a supervisory staff attorney. EFTA00058969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 : Right. 2 : What does this CLC stand 3 for? 4 : It's the Combined -. He, 5 he, he's the supervisory attorney for Brooklyn 6 and New York. 7 : Okay. 8 : At the time. 9 : So, he's kind of, like, 10 the general counsel for Brooklyn and New York? 11 : Yeah. He was the 12 supervisory attorney. So -- 13 : Okay. 14 he was in charge. 15 : All right. So, this was 16 to you, and it was on Saturday, August 10th, 17 2019. It says, per our conversation, 18 I spoke to two of his attorneys yesterday, 19 August 9th, 2019, primarily in relation to his 20 request for access to water in attorney 21 conference." 22 : Right. 23 : "Attorney Mariel Colon," 24 so, M-A-R-I-E-L. Next word, C-O-L-O-N. "With 25 whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had EFTA00058970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 2 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 3 : Cadre is the camp. 4 : Is that low level? 5 : It's like our lower security 6 inmates. Yeah. 7 : So, you have an actual 8 camp at the MCC? 9 : It's low security inmates. 10 But remember, they are designated. So, we 11 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 12 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 13 inmates together. 14 : Okay. It says, "I 15 advised we could not," since he was a pre-trial 16 inmate. 17 : Right. 18 : "Later that day, but 19 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 20 attorney on the phone. He had 21 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 22 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 23 not, based on his prior suicide 24 attempt/gesture." 25 MR. HAYES: It's just, I've never heard of EFTA00058971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 2 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: Since they're probably 5 charging him $2,000 an hour. 6 : "He acknowledged that he 7 understood. To my recollection, neither 8 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 9 watch or psychological observation during 10 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 11 if you need any further information." Now, was 12 this just a request to any contact that he had 13 with his attorneys? 14 : He was just keeping me 15 informed because the attorneys were calling 16 every day, with different types of requests. 17 : But this was the day, 18 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 19 would -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- he's talking about 22 context, just literally the previous day -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- that he was looking 25 for different housing type arrangements. EFTA00058972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But all right. If -. 3 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 4 : Excuse me? 5 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 6 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 7 : Oh. Now, this answers 8 our question from before. So, this actually 9 says, it's from you to , it says 10 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 11 were looking at. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, it looks like July 14 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 15 again, all these -- 16 : These are the attorney 17 assignment. 18 : -- (Indiscernible 19 *01:18:43). 20 : Yeah. 21 : Yeah. So, that does now 22 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 23 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 24 : Okay. 25 : Or the body. Okay. EFTA00058973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. HAYES: Yeah. I'm looking at the 2 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 3 : We're coming to - hey - 4 we're almost halfway through. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. HAYES: Well, that's the way you're 7 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 8 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 9 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 10 tomorrow's. 11 : Well. 12 : Now, you've already 13 answered this, but did you work at the MCC or. 14 August 9th? 15 : For that -- 16 : 2019. 17 was Friday. Friday, I 18 was off. 19 : What about on August 20 10th, 2019? 21 : 10th was a Saturday -- 22 : Correct. 23 : I was, I worked on 24 Saturday. 25 : All right. But did you EFTA00058974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 work in response to this? 2 : No. I had to respond, if 3 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- yeah, I had to respond if 6 I came in. 7 : Okay. So, but you 8 weren't scheduled to work? 9 : No. I wasn't scheduled to 10 work. 11 : All right. This is just 12 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 13 case you need to reference it - these are 14 emails that were from you to , with 15 the staff roster. 16 : Right. 17 : And the reason I'm using 18 these is because these were literally sent on 19 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 20 rely on these -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- based upon being so 23 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 24 It's showing who was working that day. And 25 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, EFTA00058975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 showing who was -- 2 : This is a correctional 3 roster. 4 : -- correct. 5 : Okay. 6 : Correct. This is a 7 correctional roster. Right. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, who was, basically 10 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 11 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 12 aside from correctional? 13 : Well, the correctional 14 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 15 roster. 16 : Like, R&D wouldn't do 17 anything like that? 18 : No. Because their staff are 19 already assigned to where they are working at. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yeah. And they have rosters 22 that show where everyone is working at. But 23 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 24 : Okay. So, I'm going to 25 have you just initial and date. I'm going to EFTA00058976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need 2 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 3 need to look at who was working, and what 4 position -- 5 : There's two on there. 6 : -- and what. Yes, 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 8 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 9 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 10 not attached to your email. Right? 11 : Yeah. You are right. 12 : So, the August 9th one 13 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 14 : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. So, we had to pull 16 that from -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- just for full 19 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 20 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 24 this requirement? 25 : That they were notified? EFTA00058977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 : So, how -. So, Dr. Imeri 2 or Mrs. Imeri sent out that email, saying -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- Epstein is required to 5 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 6 : Right. 7 : Who was required to make 8 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 9 aware of that requirement? 10 : Well, the captain passes it 11 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 12 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 13 if they are required a cellmate -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- that, you know, that he - 16 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 17 leaves or goes out. 18 : Now, someone such as an 19 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 prior, should all staff know that that person 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 23 : In the Special Housing Unit, 24 anybody working in there would know that he was 25 supposed to have a cellmate. EFTA00058978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 : Do you believe that there 2 was anybody - especially anybody that's got a 3 quarterly bit of post there -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- but anybody that's 6 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 7 you believe that there could be a reason why 8 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 9 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 10 an acceptable excuse? 11 : Because you had the staff 12 that usually work up there, were up there. It 13 should be, it should have been annotated on his 14 - what do you call it? - it's called a 292. 15 : The hot list, you are 16 referring to, or -- 17 : No. Not the hot list. 18 : -- or what? Oh, you 19 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 20 SHU -- 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- file. 23 : The SHU file. It should be 24 annotated on the SHU file because, when you 25 come in, you have to annotate on there his EFTA00058979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 2 would have been on there, it would have been on 3 there, too. So. 4 : Would it have also been 5 on the hot list, though? 6 MR. HAYES: Guys. I need an interpreter. 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. HAYES: What does the hot list mean? 9 : It's just -- 10 : That's -- 11 : -- sorry. 12 : -- yeah. I guess the high 13 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 14 MR. HAYES: Whether it's suicide, or high 15 risk for some other kind of problem? 16 : It could be -. It's mainly 17 for, like, suicide, just to -- 18 MR. HAYES: Medical. 19 : -- to watch out for. Yeah. 20 Medical. Okay. 21 MR. HAYES: Seizures. You know, stuff 22 like that? 23 : Yeah. So. 24 : So, point being is, do 25 you think that, if any staff that is working in EFTA00058980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - 2 : Right. 3 : -- in the morning of 4 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- the morning of August 7 10th. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : SHU staff that is working 10 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 11 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 12 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 13 for them to say that we didn't know he was 14 required to have a cellmate? 15 : No, because they did know, 16 because I - from what I understand - someone 17 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 18 they knew. 19 : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 20 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 21 MR. HAYES: One other question. I want to 22 open a box. 23 : Absolutely. 24 MR. HAYES: That means I'm going to have 25 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going EFTA00058981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to bother anybody? 2 : No. No. 3 : No. No. 4 : No, no, no, no. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. 6 : I'm sorry, I thought you 7 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 8 situation of if we were in the MCC or 9 something. 10 : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. No. This is just a 12 13 : You're just wanting to 14 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 15 fine. 16 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 17 : I guess we should wait 18 until he gets -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- back again. If we 21 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 22 questions? 23 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 24 : All right. We're going 25 to continue, then. The answer was yes. EFTA00058982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : I don't know if that was 2 somebody. 3 : There might be clients in the 4 office. 5 : Oh. 6 : Huh? 7 : Okay. 8 : That's why. 9 : Then we will wait. 10 : He wasn't kidding about the 11 knife. 12 : Oh. 13 MR. HAYES: You know why I got this? This 14 movie called Gangs of New York. 15 : That's a great movie. 16 MR. HAYES: And he - and a good movie 17 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 18 Diaz. 19 : Sure. 20 MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on 21 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 22 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 23 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 24 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How 25 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is EFTA00058983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 it. 2 : That's super cool. 3 MR. HAYES: So. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Sorry. I'll ask a few 6 more questions before we get into these 7 documents. Were any plans made on how to 8 address this situation for if Reyes was removed 9 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 10 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 11 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 12 : No. I mean, the plan would 13 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 14 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 15 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 16 Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 17 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 18 assessment would have been made. 19 : Okay. Now, what is your 20 understanding of what happened with inmate 21 Reyes on August 9th, 2019? 22 : When I got back after the 23 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 24 from the institution. 25 : Okay. So, there is a lot EFTA00058984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 of people we've talked to thought he went to 2 court, and that at court, it was determined he 3 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 4 : That's what I heard, too. I 5 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 6 guess word got back that he wasn't coming back. 7 That's what I heard. So, I never got 8 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 9 MR. HAYES: It's either a good day in 10 court, or a bad day in court. 11 : Yeah. I never got the 12 actual story because I was, I was removed. So. 13 : Okay. And again, what 14 does WAB mean? 15 : It means With All 16 Belongings. 17 : Okay. 18 : But I don't know, and I 19 don't know if people will say that he left, and 20 then they went and got him from the office. 21 So, I am not sure. 22 : Okay. So, this is -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- one of those documents 25 that says -- EFTA00058985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- from to 3 you. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : With inmate Epstein as 6 the subject. 7 : Right. 8 : And it says, "So far, 9 this is the documentation I have in my 10 possession." 11 MR. HAYES: Wow. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : And if you see, you know, 14 here, it talks about all the documentation 15 pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP 16 database -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- things. Then down 19 here, it says, "Documentation re: Reyes, Efrain 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 • 23 Cellmate." 24 MR. HAYES: Right. 25 : Right. EFTA00058986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : It says, "Court 2 documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- 3 : '19. 4 : -- '19. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And then, also SHU file. 7 So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 8 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring 9 to there? 10 : I guess whatever came 11 through R&D. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Our Receiving and Discharge. 14 They might have gotten -. They must have 15 gotten information to release him, and that he 16 was being transferred. 17 : So, would it be at all- I 18 know R&D creates something called, like, a 19 court production list, or -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- would that be what 22 she's talking about, the court production list, 23 or would she be, do you think -- 24 : So -- 25 : -- or, like, a PP-38, or EFTA00058987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 something, or whatever -? 2 : I think, and I'm speculating 3 now, it was probably the court list, and it 4 probably said, we're sending him off to court. 5 And it was a possibility that he might be 6 getting released. 7 : Because the document that 8 has been eluding me -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- is that court 11 production list. Do you know if that was ever 12 obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that 13 R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - 14 15 : Oh, the court -- 16 : -- different housing 17 units. 18 : -- list. I don't. I don't 19 know what they do with it. 20 : They just, they all say 21 they -- 22 : Now -- 23 : -- destroy it after that 24 time. 25 : Yeah, they do, but -- EFTA00058988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : But -- 2 : -- with him -- 3 : -- but that's what would 4 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to 5 produce Reyes to the R&D. 6 : No. Not necessarily. What 7 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call 8 up to SHU, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He 9 has court. Or he's being released. So, there 10 wouldn't have been a document sent up. 11 : So, everyone that we 12 talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this 13 document. 14 : Right. 15 : And the SHU staff, 16 including the OIC, said, yes, we had 17 documentation showing that he was WAB. So 18 then, and they all said it was because it was 19 this court production list that you sent out 20 emails to -. 21 : Unless it's sent in the 22 early morning. 23 : And it's not something 24 that's sent electronically. It's something 25 they said that they generate, print out -- EFTA00058989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 Right. 2 : -- and hand to 3 different, the ops has one, every 4 housing unit has one. Internal goes around and 5 collects people, based upon it or something. I 6 think. And then -- 7 : So -- 8 : -- then they basically 9 destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing 10 is maintained in the system. They just use a 11 template, and create a new one for every day. 12 : So, that must have been the 13 early court movement. So, I was under the 14 impression that he was, he left in the 15 afternoon. So, when typically in the 16 afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, 17 we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he 18 had left that afternoon. 19 : Okay. So, is it, then, 20 are you not - then to answer that question 21 are you not sure exactly what she's referring 22 to when she says "court documentation regarding 23 WAB"? 24 : Like, the way you explained 25 it, then that means they were talking about EFTA00058990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 morning courts. 2 : Well, that's what they 3 were -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : I'm just talking about 6 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- specifically, what 9 she's talking about in this email to you. Do 10 you -? 11 : But when you say WAB, With 12 All Belongings, it depends on the time of day 13 they left. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : You know? You could have 16 afternoon court, and you don't have that list 17 generated, and they say -- 18 : But if -- 19 : -- we need all his 20 belongings. 21 : -- this might help -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- and then, we will keep 24 this in front of you -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00058991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : -- this might help 2 explain this. So, this is an email that was 3 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone 4 named (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50). 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : On Thursday, August 8th, 7 2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of 8 prisoners from NYM -- 9 : To GEO. 10 : -- to GEO. 11 : Okay. 12 : The following prisoners 13 are to be transferred." The second person 14 listed out of the two is, "Reyes, Efrain." 15 : Right. 16 : "85993-054." 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : "Please schedule the 19 transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include 20 seven days medication with the medical summary. 21 Thank you." 22 : Right. 23 : So, this obviously was 24 sent to R&D. Correct? 25 : Right. EFTA00058992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: Do we know what kind of 2 medication he was taking? 3 : Well, that's Efrain 4 Reyes. We're not talking about -. 5 : That's Reyes. 6 : We're not -. 7 MR. HAYES: I know. I just am curious. 8 : It's not -- 9 MR. HAYES: We don't know? 10 : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: -- relevant. 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. 14 : I don't think it's 15 relevant. Here is another email that the U.S. 16 Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at 17 18 : Okay. 19 • -- 20 . It says, "Prisoner production." It 21 looks like it was sent to custody. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : On Thursday, August 8th, 24 2019, at 3:36 p.m. And this, this document, 25 prisoner schedule report is attached. And -- EFTA00058993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 : You're looking at the second 2 one. 3 : -- so, for the MCC -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- it shows right here, 6 the second person listed as Efrain Reyes. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : And it just says, "TF, 9 transfer within. MCC New York." And right 10 here, it says, Judge MCC Tot, T-O-T. GEO. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : What I was told, that 13 means that he's transferring from the MCC to 14 GEO. Is that -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- your understanding? 17 : Yes. 18 : And then, on this one, 19 this is the PP-38. On the third - for 20 8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows Reyes, 21 from ZO6-22. And that means the SHU. Correct? 22 : Yes. SHU. 23 : To pre-remove. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : At 8:38 a.m. EFTA00058994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : So, this was 8:38 a.m. 3 He's keyed out of our system. We got these two 4 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 5 he's being transferred. 6 MR. HAYES: So, wait. Let me get this 7 clear. He's being transferred to what place to 8 what place? 9 : From the MCC to GEO. 10 MR. HAYES: And what is GEO? 11 : A contract facility. 12 MR. HAYES: And what is a contract 13 facility? 14 : A private prison. 15 MR. HAYES: Okay. And you had nothing to 16 do with -? In other words, somebody else 17 decides to go from one place to another -- 18 : Yes. 19 MR. HAYES: -- you (Indiscernible 20 *01:33:11). Okay. 21 : The Marshals -. 22 MR. HAYES: And would that be the judge or 23 the Marshals? 24 : The Marshals, I guess. The 25 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but EFTA00058995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 they -- 2 : Prosecutors. Marshals. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Judge. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. 6 : All in coordination, make 7 those determinations. But, and then, here is 8 an email from you to 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : With what you are talking 11 about, that memo. 12 : Right. 13 : It says, "On Friday, 14 August 9th, 2019," but before we even get into 15 that, now that you have seen this, you have 16 seen these two emails. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : From the Marshal Service 19 on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D 20 actually keys him out. 21 : Right. 22 : All of them say pre- 23 removed or transferred. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : Does that now tell you EFTA00058996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 anything about this, court documentation 2 regarding WAB? 3 : Yeah. Now, it explains that 4 they had gotten a court order to have him go 5 out. 6 : So, what do you think is 7 referred to that court documentation? 8 : I guess it must be all of 9 these documents right here. 10 : This? 11 : Yes. 12 : So, what we're actually 13 looking at, you think she's referring to? 14 : That's, I think, that's what 15 she was referring to. 16 : All right. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, court documentation 19 meaning, documentation from the Marshal 20 Service, saying that he was going to be 21 transferred? 22 : Right. 23 : All right. Now, based 24 upon what you are looking at here, specifically 25 from the Marshal Service -- EFTA00058997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- and the fact that 3 Efrain Reyes, whom -. Is it -? I've been told 4 that everyone at the MCC knew who Reyes was 5 because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : But at the very least, 8 everyone in the SHU should have known who 9 Efrain Reyes was. 10 : Right. 11 : Because he was Epstein's 12 cellmate. What should have happened once, on 13 August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late 14 as 3:33 p.m., the day before Reyes is 15 transferred, what should have happened? 16 : As far as Epstein getting a 17 cellmate? 18 : Correct. 19 : Right. 20 : The notification is being 21 made that this person is being transferred, 22 everyone gathers him up. And so, what this, 23 I'm going to read this just to give you more 24 information -- 25 : Right. EFTA00058998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : -- on his backtrack. 2 This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th, 3 2019, to - yourself. 4 : Right. 5 : From , who, my 6 understanding is he was the 7 the time. 8 : Right. 9 : It says, "Subject passed 10 information from Special Housing Unit." So, 11 "On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 12 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, III 13 passed onto oncoming staff member, 14 Davis, and present shift staff, and 15 Officer Joiner, that inmate Reyes was going 16 WAB, and possibly may not return. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Also, that inmate Epstein 19 will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from 20 his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't 21 state is that Officer , or III 22 walked, I mean, both Epstein -- 23 MR. HAYES: I'll go get that. 24 : -- as well as Reyes, down 25 to R&D -- EFTA00058999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- with all belongings. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Spoke with both Epstein 5 and Mr. Reyes, and stated to Mr. - I think 6 Reyes stated to - make sure you get 7 him a cellmate. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : I'm not coming back. And 10 responding to Mr. Epstein, saying, 11 "Don't worry. We're going to get you a new 12 cellmate." 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Now, with all that 15 information, being that he is the OIC, he's 16 working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : We've got all this stuff 19 going on. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : This is the real big 22 reason why I want to talk to you -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- as 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 : This is kind of our 2 primary purpose -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- for us being here. 5 So, I apologize if you're going into that, but 6 I want you to have all the information -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- before I answer. What 9 should have happened here? So, R&D is 10 contacted the day before, or two days before 11 Epstein, or Epstein is found. One day before 12 Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both 13 custody, as well as R&D. 14 : Right. 15 : R&D pre-removes him at 16 8:38 on 8/09. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : The SHU OIC walks him 19 down, to R&D -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : -- and actually has this 22 conversation with Epstein and Reyes, saying, 23 know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new 24 staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate. 25 MR. HAYES: Which means - WAS means what? EFTA00059001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 : With All Belongings, 2 neans they're not coming back. 3 MR. HAYES: But Epstein is not coming 4 back? 5 : No. 6 : His cellmate. 7 : Reyes. 8 MR. HAYES: Reyes. 9 : His cellmate. 10 MR. HAYES: So, the theory is, if you are 11 investigating, somebody says that you're not 12 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 13 conversation, or present during that 14 conversation, is Epstein? 15 : Epstein is present. Yes. 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein knows that 17 he's not going to have a cellmate for the 18 immediate future? 19 : No. Epstein is going to 20 attorney conference. So, he's going to be -- 21 MR. HAYES: No, no, but I'm saying -- 22 in attorney conference 23 until about 7:00 p.m.. 24 MR. HAYES: -- that Epstein knows that, 25 over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to EFTA00059002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 have a cellee. 2 : No. , the OIC, 3 tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are 4 going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes 5 back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein would know 7 that he hasn't - going to have a cellmate. 8 : Yeah, yeah. So, this 9 isn't part of the theory. What my question to 10 your client is, what should have happened based 11 upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The 12 contact with the Marshal Service, telling him 13 that he's being transferred. The fact that 14 R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, 15 and R&D actually logged him out of our system. 16 What should have happened? 17 : So, what should have 18 happened was, this information should have been 19 passed up to the supervisors. 20 : At what point? 21 : See, with the, this 22 information coming in, as far as, you know, 23 when R&D -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- typically, it would come EFTA00059003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up 2 to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the 3 lieutenants should have been notified. 4 : Okay. And which 5 6 : Whoever was the SHU 7 , whoever was the operations 8 9 : Now, on this case 10 : If the -. 11 : -- the SHU is 12 also on leave. 13 : Right. 14 : So, we've got the chief 15 psychologist on leave, on leave, the 16 SHU on leave. But we do have an ops 17 , we do have an activities 18 And we do have a captain. 19 : So, you should have let the 20 know, if you didn't have 21 a SHU . They, in turn, would let the 22 captain know, and the captain would push it up 23 to the execs then. Then, we would have to come 24 to a determination on who we were going to 25 house with Epstein. EFTA00059004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 : Now, if the operations 2 , his name is Perez. 3 : Right. 4 : Carlos 5 : Right. 6 : -- Perez. 7 : Right. 8 : If he says, yes, I know 9 Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at 10 court -- 11 : No. You mean -- 12 : -- and he might be 13 returning back. 14 : -- Reyes is gone. 15 : Yes. 16 : So, Carlos Perez knows 17 that Sorry, did I say Epstein? 18 : Yeah. You said Epstein. 19 : Yes. Carlos Perez knows 20 that Reyes is gone. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : But I think he's at 23 court, and then, he might not be coming back. 24 I didn't pass this information onto my relief, 25 who was Cannata (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59). EFTA00059005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : However, as our 3 investigation has revealed, the ops 4 also has one of these court production lists, 5 that lists Reyes -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- as WAB. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : With that knowledge, is 10 that a reason that he thinks that he went to 11 court, and might be coming back? 12 : I can't interpret what his 13 thought process was, but if it said, you know, 14 he was leaving, and I don't know what he was 15 reading at the time. 16 : Right. 17 : He could have been reading, 18 because sometimes the inmates do go out to 19 court and come back. So, I don't know. I 20 can't speak to what he read. Or why he made 21 that determination. 22 MR. HAYES: So, listen, wouldn't have most 23 inmates, when they go to court, come back? 24 : The point being here 25 : What I'm saying -- EFTA00059006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 : -- he didn't go to court. 2 : Yeah. 3 : He was transferred. 4 : He was transferred. 5 : And I know you might have 6 covered this, in your understanding, in your 7 experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed 8 as WAB -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 -- With All Belongings -- 11 : Yeah. 12 : -- what is your 13 understanding? Are they coming back or are 14 they gone? 15 : That means he's 16 transferring. 17 : Has there been situations 18 where they come back? 19 : There have been 20 : After WAB? 21 -- situations that, you 22 know, they go out and they have to have them 23 sending them back, if there was an issue. 24 : Is that a unique situation, 25 or it happens quite often? EFTA00059007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 : No. I wouldn't say. 2 would say that it's probably unique. But 3 usually, WAB, they're gone. 4 : So, as the operations 5 , if you see somebody listed as WAB, 6 should he have understood that that person is 7 gone, and not coming back? 8 : Should have. But then, 9 you're talking off the document. I don't know 10 what document they read. So, I don't want to 11 speculate what, you know, was it, you know, 12 send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't 13 know what document. But I'm saying, if it is 14 this document, that clearly stated WAB. 15 : Okay. But as far as your 16 concern, it doesn't sound like what you were 17 saying is, , who was the OIC at the 18 time, should have he notified the ops 19 20 : Yes. Whoever is - yeah - 21 there should have notified the operations 22 , hey, Reyes left, and -- 23 MR. HAYES: He needs a cellmate. 24 : -- he needs a cellmate, 25 : Okay. So, would it fall EFTA00059008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 solely on the shoulders of 2 : No. I mean, okay, so, 3 here's the other checks and balance. So, what 4 about the other people on the other shift? 5 : That's my question. 6 : Yeah. 7 : So, or 8 : I mean 9 : -- or the people that are 10 working on his same shift. 11 : -- yeah. On his own same, 12 shift -- 13 : So, who -- 14 : -- if it was the 15 notification should have been made to the 16 . Or the captain. And 17 said, hey, cellmate left. He needs a cellmate. 18 : Okay. 19 MR. HAYES: And that cellmate would now, 20 at some point, he goes back to the cell, but 21 that's at the end of the day. 22 : At the end of the day. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, nobody is in a 24 position to say, hey, he's in a cell by 25 himself. Until the end of the day. EFTA00059009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 : Right. But the information 2 is passed onto each other. You know, when you 3 4 : And they are supposed to 5 be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would 6 notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. 7 : Had zero inmates in it. 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 9 : So, I mean -- 10 MR. HAYES: And that's what brings us all 11 to -- 12 : Right. 13 MR. HAYES: -- here today. 14 : So -- 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : I mean, that's how it 17 would have made, and when that got pushed up, 18 we would have said, okay, we would have to 19 formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, 20 for Epstein? 21 : And I apologize to ask 22 this because, but, like, so, on each shift 23 would be the OIC, that would be responsible for 24 that. So, for instance, would be on 25 the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he EFTA00059010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 would be the one to responsible to provide the 2 , but then, the following shift, 3 would it be -- 4 : Whoever is the -- 5 : -- the next OIC -- 6 : -- right. 7 : -- or would also the 8 people that are working in that unit, the other 9 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 10 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 11 OIC is really the person making that 12 notification. 13 : Everybody has a 14 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. I 15 mean -- 16 : Sure. 17 : I might be the OIC, but I 18 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 19 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 20 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 21 assigned to that post, and they're just filling 22 in for somebody that, the regular person that's 23 up there. And then, I have the regular people 24 working up there, who are familiar with what's 25 going on. So, it's kind of everyone's EFTA00059011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 responsibility. You know? 2 : So, is everyone kind of 3 equally responsible, then, for this? That was 4 working there and didn't pass the information 5 on. 6 MR. HAYES: Can you say? Don't guess. 7 : You know what? 8 : No, as 9 would be able to say. 10 : I mean, it should have been, 11 it should have been passed on. So, I don't 12 know the dynamics to, as far as what was going 13 on that day, who was working up there. What 14 rounds were being made -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- up there. You know, was 17 the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain? 18 How busy they were. 19 : So, the lieutenant was 20 not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not 21 on. However, we do have records that the 22 activities lieutenant at least visited -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- the SHU -- 25 : You have -- EFTA00059012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 : -- at that point. 2 -- you have two other 3 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 4 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 5 is a very busy unit. 6 : Yeah. 7 : You know, you're giving out 8 showers. You're giving out recreation. You're 9 doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know, 10 running around all day, and, you know, 11 sometimes things happen. 12 : Understood. But in this 13 case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile 14 inmate? At that time. 15 : I mean, besides my terrorist 16 inmates that I had up there on Ten South. 17 : Well, I guess, at least 18 the Nine South. 19 : I would say he was a high- 20 profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 21 : Is it, I mean, on that 22 note, don't you think that they would have, you 23 know, found it pretty important to notify? 24 Especially they - and I don't know that we 25 brought this today - but there was even signs EFTA00059013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30- 2 minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or 3 something, you know, along the lines. Not, you 4 know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like 5 6 : No, that was me. 7 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 8 : That was me. No. I mean, I 9 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 10 so, no one could say that they didn't know. 11 : So, point being, there 12 was, like, signs specific to even Epstein, 13 check on this guy every 30 minutes. 14 : Right. 15 : You know, orange signs 16 that are posted up there. 17 : Right. 18 : So, point being, with 19 this -- 20 : It should have been passed 21 up. 22 : -- and that is where -. 23 So, for us, I guess -- 24 : Right. 25 : -- again, and I know that EFTA00059014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate 2 on maybe saying, like, this person did 3 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 4 ball here? Knowing, though, that you could 5 take a look, the day before, all these people 6 are the ones who received the email -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- in custody. And so, I 9 know we see Rice. I'm sure - I'm 10 assuming would be on there. 11 : I think Perez is on there. 12 : Who? 13 : Is Perez on there? 14 : It's just -- 15 : I didn't see Perez. 16 : -- maybe. 17 : But again, this one, that 18 one is not even as clear. This one 19 specifically spells out -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- this one, you would 22 actually have to go in and look at this 23 prisoner's schedule report. 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a 25 look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There EFTA00059015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's 2 schedule literally means prisoner's schedule. 3 : Well, yeah. So, the 4 prisoner's schedule report is something like 5 this, but it will tell you that they are either 6 going to, like, transfer, or they are going to 7 go to court. Whereas this other document that 8 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 9 transfer. 10 MR. HAYES: Okay. But there is nothing 11 that says recreation, personnel care. It's 12 mostly going to and from court, or leaving the 13 institution. 14 : Yeah. Because it's a 15 prisoner's schedule. 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. 17 : Report. 18 MR. HAYES: Okay. 19 : So, it's, like, what they 20 are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's 21 not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like, 22 in the institution. 23 MR. HAYES: Right. 24 : It's a U.S. Marshal 25 Service report that is provided to the BOP, so EFTA00059016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11- 1 that they know which inmates 2 MR. HAYES: Right. 3 : -- they need to produce, 4 and for what reason. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 6 : Now, is that correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : So, yeah. Based upon 9 what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and 10 then again, what we know about at the 11 very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was 12 WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : What should have happened 15 there? Like, who, in your opinion here, 16 dropped the ball? 17 : I think at all levels, it 18 was the checks and balance. If it went to the 19 lieutenant's office, somebody should have 20 picked it up. Working in the unit. It should 21 have been passed up to the lieutenant's office. 22 So, there were a couple of safety nets that 23 could have caught it. 24 : So, pretty much everybody 25 dropped the ball? EFTA00059017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 : I mean, if we're looking at 2 it like this, if you're saying going by an 3 email being sent around. 4 : Well, not only the email, 5 but I mean, the email, I can understand if 6 people are busy and they don't always, you 7 know, this one -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- it would be hard to - 10 that one would be hard to -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- you know, say that you 13 didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you 14 know, the prisoner's schedule 15 : Well, this one, I don't 16 : -- (Indiscernible 17 *01:48:52). 18 : I mean, I don't know what 19 gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I 20 don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. I 21 think more -- 22 : Well, this is -- 23 : -- of a condensed version. 24 : -- this is with this. 25 : Right. EFTA00059018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 : So, this was what was 2 sent with this. This was sent specifically, 3 just that. It's not a document. That's the 4 body. 5 : Right. That was sent. 6 : But that is, again, R&D. 7 : Right. 8 : But, which again, R&D 9 we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of 10 custody. Correct? 11 : Right. 12 : But speaking with R&D, 13 they said they would have produced this list, 14 which SHU would have had, as well as ops 15 lieutenant -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- the lieutenant's 18 office, all the housing units, which listed 19 Reyes as WAB. 20 : Right. 21 : Do you know if they are 22 actually looking - like, the lieutenant's 23 office, people in the lieutenant's office, or 24 the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are 25 they actually look at that list and saying, or EFTA00059019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 that's just based upon the busyness of their 2 day? 3 : Yeah. I wouldn't speculate. 4 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 5 : Okay. 6 lieutenant is looking at 7 stuff. I mean, it's, like, the documents. 8 : No. I mean, but should 9 have they, I guess is the question? 10 : As far as what? Emails that 11 are coming through, on who's leaving? 12 : No, no, no. This would 13 be a physical paper that they were provided. 14 : Right. 15 : Internal would go around 16 and provide everybody with this physical paper 17 that they create, and then, they apparently 18 destroy it at the end of the day. 19 : Right. So, I don't know if 20 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 21 go, they are dropping it off at different 22 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 23 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I 24 guess this probably be the only document -- 25 : No, no, no. EFTA00059020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 : -- they tear up. 2 : We are being told, by the 3 lieutenants, as well as -- 4 : Right. 5 : -- by R&D, they all have 6 it, and they all, and it would all - and it 7 would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven't 8 found that document to show you this is what 9 I'm referring to. But it's a document they 10 apparently create, which they call the court 11 production list. Are you 12 : The court list. 13 : -- yeah. 14 : I've heard of the court 15 list. 16 : But it's like a -- 17 : And it -. 18 : -- from my understanding, 19 it is an informal document that they are just 20 providing so that, you know, these are the 21 people that we need to produce today. 22 : For internal, yeah. The 23 internal officer goes around and drops them off 24 at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I 25 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court EFTA00059021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 list. 2 : Yeah. 3 : In the morning. 4 : Exactly. 5 : So, yeah, that's not 6 anything that's kept on record. 7 : Right. So, I guess the 8 question, though, being that they had these 9 court lists, is another one of these checks and 10 balances? Or is that really just for the 11 Special Housing Unit? 12 : I think they You mean as 13 far as the court list, I don't understand your 14 question, but -- 15 : Yeah. It's just getting 16 back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We 17 were notified on the 8th. He left on the 18 morning of the 9th. 19 : Right. 20 : Epstein was found on the 21 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and 22 we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have 23 happened, and who didn't do their job? Is 24 really the question. 25 : And like I said before, when EFTA00059022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 2 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 3 up to his supervisor. 4 : All right. 5 : This guy is leaving. But 6 then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is 7 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 8 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 9 needs a cellmate. And notified the 10 that he needs a cellmate. 11 : And that goes back to my, 12 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 13 made that notification. 14 : Should have said it. It 15 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 16 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 17 you. It's everybody's job up there to say, 18 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 19 we need to do. 20 : And would that be the 21 case for, when he left during the day shift 22 : Right. 23 : -- the next shift is the 24 night shift, when he would have - I believe 25 during the night shift - he would have come EFTA00059023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 back -- 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- and again, if they 4 were doing rounds, they would have noticed that 5 Reyes wasn't there in the first place. But 6 also, certainly, when they brought -- 7 : Epstein back. 8 : -- Epstein back to his 9 cell. There would have been no cellmate in 10 there. 11 : You should have known he was 12 a cellmate. 13 : And would it be the same 14 thing for the morning shift? That they would 15 know that Epstein was in there alone? 16 : Because if the morning shift 17 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 18 realized he was in there by himself. 19 : So, should have every 20 single shift reported it to the ops 21 that there is no one -? 22 : Whoever caught it should 23 have, you know, let's say one shift missed it, 24 the next shift should have picked up and said, 25 you know, called and said, , we got a EFTA00059024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 - this guy needs a -- 2 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 3 : -- a cellmate. 4 : And again, I know we're 5 Monday morning quarterback because of the 6 result here, but what is your - as 7 of the institution, on these dates - how do you 8 interpret this? Is this a really significant 9 failure on their part, the not have caught this 10 and passed that information up? 11 : It's not following the 12 directive. I mean, and then, look at result. 13 : Right. 14 : So, I mean, the result is 15 what, you know, caused it to be a serious 16 matter. 17 : Okay. 18 : Yeah. 19 : Now, as far as going back 20 to this memo, do you know why Mr. 21 wrote this memo. 22 : I forgot. I might have 23 called -. I might have called 24 Perez, and said - and I don't know if he was 25 working - said, what happened up there? EFTA00059025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 : Now, when you say Perez, 2 because he was the ops or are you 3 talking about Rice, who was the SHU 4 : Perez, who was the 5 operations Because first, I know when I got 6 back, somebody told me Rice wasn't at work, 7 because that was my first question. Who was 8 the SHU ? Where they are at. And 9 then, I think I did reach out to Perez, and 10 said, what happened up there? 11 : Okay. 12 : And that's when I found that 13 out. 14 : And did you ever speak 15 with either Perez or about this? 16 : No. 17 : Okay. 18 : Because by the time I had 19 gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the 20 day of, when I had to go up to, I think the 21 U.S. Attorney's Office. 22 : Okay. To speak with them 23 about this? 24 : When I speak up to them, and 25 them the agent had the memorandum. EFTA00059026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 : He already had it on him? 2 : He had it on him. Because 3 he was during the interrogation, he presented 4 it to the U.S. Attorney that was there. 5 : And was that the first 6 time you had seen it? 7 : No. I think I -. I don't 8 recall when I first saw it, but I know I had 9 gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten 10 it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then, 11 given it to the IG. I forgot. I forget his 12 name, and who was handling the case. 13 : For the IG? 14 : Yeah. 15 : Carpenter. 16 : If you weren't giving it 17 to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have 18 been Dave Carpenter. 19 : Because he sat in there with 20 us. 21 : David Carpenter. 22 : So, he - I remember - he had 23 a copy of it. 24 : Okay. 25 : Because we had told him that EFTA00059027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 they knew that they were supposed to -. 2 : So, not including when 3 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 4 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 5 BOP, such as Perez or 6 : No. I just got the 7 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 8 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 9 The, you know, the directives were given. What 10 happened? 11 : And when you asked what 12 happened, was there a verbal response? 13 : It was a verbal response. 14 : And what did you -? What 15 were you told? 16 : That they knew he was 17 supposed to -. That had passed it on 18 to other individuals about it. 19 : Now, do you think that 20 that What is your thought process of 21 who is the one who actually presented 22 - excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is 23 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior 24 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed 25 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got EFTA00059028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 to do it. 2 : Now -- 3 : Do you think he should 4 have done it, passed the information on during 5 his shift? 6 : Yeah. Absolutely. It 7 should have been letting the know. 8 : Uh-huh. 9 : That, hey, this is - we got 10 a guy that needs to be -- 11 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 12 : -- that needs a cellmate. 13 : I should clarify that. 14 : What? 15 : I think on the elevator it 16 was Monge. 17 : Right. 18 : Monge was escorting Reyes 19 down to R&D. And was escorting 20 Epstein over to attorney conference. They just 21 happened to cross paths, I think -- 22 : Yeah, they were together, 23 though. Right? 24 : -- yeah, but I think Monge is 25 the one that brought him down to the - Reyes - EFTA00059029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 down to R&D. 2 : Then that would make sense. 3 Because if Monge is internal, internal takes 4 him to court. 5 : Okay. 6 : And then, if somebody is 7 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 8 it would be SHU staff taking him. 9 : All right. So, if Monge 10 is the one who is actually providing him to 11 R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he 12 was WAB, to make any notifications? 13 : I don't know if internal -. 14 You know, Monge was internal, and I don't know 15 if he knew, you know, the situation. 16 : And typically, would it 17 be internal's job - if they come and collect 18 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 19 control, or the ops , to say this guy 20 is off our books, or anything, or -? 21 : No. Because we have a lot 22 of inmates that move in and out. 23 : Sure. 24 : So, he wouldn't be able to 25 keep track of every particular inmate that is EFTA00059030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 going and coming. 2 Okay. Basically, 3 everyone had a share of responsibility? 4 : (Indiscernible *01:57:54). 5 : All right. Before we 6 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 7 initial and date these both documents. We can 8 get them out of your way and move on. 9 : All of them? 10 : Oh, yeah. Top of this, 11 top of this. 12 : Okay. 13 : This guy. You know, this 14 one. All right. 15 : Let me take this. 16 : Thank you, sir. Now, 17 prior to this meeting, did you know that Reyes 18 was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go 19 to court? 20 : Wait, prior to when? 21 : This meeting. 22 : Oh, no. I knew he -. I 23 heard that. You know? After his death, that 24 he was -- 25 : Transferred. EFTA00059031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 : -- removed. That he was 2 transferred. 3 : Okay. 4 : When I came in on Saturday. 5 : Were you required - or 6 mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service 7 had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019? 8 : I was not aware. 9 : No? Well, did anyone 10 ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever 11 make you aware that Reyes was transferred from 12 the institution? 13 : Prior to October 10th? 14 : August 10th. 2019. 15 : I found out when I came in 16 that morning, because I -- 17 : Okay. 18 was, like, where is his 19 cellmate? 20 : Okay. So, you didn't 21 know that he didn't have a cellmate on August 22 9th? 23 : No, I did not. 24 : Now, who was ultimately 25 responsible to make sure that Epstein has a EFTA00059032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 cellmate? 2 : I mean, if it's the 3 directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is 4 working decide - passes it up, and then, that 5 ensures, you know, to make sure he has a 6 cellmate. So -. 7 : So, SHU staff. 8 : Whoever was working up 9 there. 10 : Okay. When you say 11 working up there, does that include, like, 12 lieutenants doing rounds and things 13 like that? Or -? 14 : Well, yeah, from what 15 transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants 16 didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based 17 on the email that, you know, they knew he was 18 leaving, but as far as when the finality of it 19 was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. 20 You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his 21 cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, 22 something should have went off on somebody to 23 make some notifications. 24 : Okay. I know we're going 25 to talk about counts. EFTA00059033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. HAYES: Wait, wait. The notification. 4 Would that go up as high as you? If someone 5 would say? 6 : They would send it up to the 7 lieutenants, then they would tell the captain. 8 And the captain would let the associate warden 9 know, and then it would get up to me. 10 : Especially an instance 11 since you have a say in who -- 12 : Right. 13 : gotcha. 14 : We would have to sit down 15 and say, okay, of all the available individuals 16 that are on the unit now, who can we house 17 Epstein with? 18 : Now, what about in this 19 case, where as you actually weren't working 20 that day, would that -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- should have they 23 called you -- 24 : Yeah. Whoever is -- 25 : -- on the -? EFTA00059034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 : -- whoever was the acting 2 warden. 3 : That would make the 4 determination? 5 : She would have made the 6 determination to. 7 : Who was the acting warden 8 that day, do you know? 9 : I don't know if I left 10 or in -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- as the acting. 13 : One of those two. 14 : It would be one of those 15 two. 16 : And it wouldn't be the 17 18 : No. He's the executive 19 assistant. 20 : Now, what is the 21 difference between, like, an executive 22 assistance and an AW? 23 : The associate warden is a 24 GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13. 25 : Okay. So, they are not - EFTA00059035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. 3 : -- but what, is that 4 executive assistant just mainly to assist you 5 in your functions? 6 : He assists in the functions. 7 I had also given him some other departments to 8 monitor. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : So, they manage, also, those 11 other departments. 12 : Okay. 13 : I just got a question. I 14 don't know if you may be asked him about the 15 backup list. Was there a backup list of names? 16 : For? 17 : I think, I think we did 18 talk about it, but if Reyes - we did 19 : Okay. 20 : -- but -- 21 : Sorry. 22 : -- when we talked about 23 if Reyes was removed because the institution 24 always has people coming and going -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 -- so frequently, was 2 there, like, a list that was set in place, that 3 we would now consider these people, or would it 4 be just the whole new -? 5 : No. Because we would have 6 to base it on who was there. 7 : Okay. 8 : Because of the turnover in 9 the unit. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : All right. Now, we're 12 going to get into counts. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, this is an email sent 15 from you to . It's the count slips 16 for -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- it was sent on 19 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : This shows, ZA is the 22 SHU. Correct? 23 : Right. 24 : So, this says, at 8:10, 25 it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed EFTA00059037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 by M. and Ms. Noel. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : And it says, that count 4 was done, it looks like, at -- 5 : 12:01 a.m. 6 : -- 12:01 a.m. And then, 7 we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : It goes down to 72. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : At 5:00 a.m., there is 12 72. And here is the count, the institutional 13 count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m. 14 Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m. 15 : 3:00 a.m. 16 : I don't know why this is 17 all out of order. 5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00 18 a.m., this says 72. 72. 19 : I think that was just an -- 20 : 72. 21 : -- attachment to that email 22 that you sent. 23 : So, but as you know, as 24 you notice, one of them said -. So, the count 25 slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the EFTA00059038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 institutional count. And as you see here, for 2 12:00 a.m., it said 72. 3 MR. HAYES: By the institution, you mean 4 the SHU? 5 : No. The institution. 6 : It means the whole. 7 : MCC does a count -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and -- 10 MR. HAYES: Right. 11 : -- it's what the official 12 13 MR. HAYES: The count. 14 : -- number show -- 15 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. 16 : -- the SHU, these count 17 slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let 18 you, you can answer my question. What is 19 supposed to be the difference between what 20 happens with the count slip, and what happens 21 with the institutional count? So, I'm not 22 answering your question. 23 : So, what happens is, on the 24 shift, you call the count, and the different 25 units call in the count to control center. EFTA00059039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 : And how do they get that 2 count number? 3 : From counting. They have to 4 go around and count. 5 : Physically counting an 6 inmate? 7 : You have to -- 8 : Correct? 9 : -- physically count the 10 bodies. 11 : And then, they take that 12 total amount of inmates, and they call that 13 into the control center? 14 : They call that into the 15 control. 16 : And where does the 17 control center get their numbers from? 18 : This is what is called an 19 El. Which is a print out of the number of 20 inmates in each unit. 21 : Right. 22 : So, if an instance, for 23 example, we look at BA unit. So, there is 24 supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls 25 it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me EFTA00059040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1-I 1 it's a bad count. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : So, they have to go back and 4 count again. 5 : So, the El is created 6 based upon what inmates are listed within your 7 system. 8 : Right. 9 : The count slips are based 10 upon how many inmates they actually count. 11 : What they count. 12 : And the purpose of that 13 is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates, 14 and why are they providing that number to 15 control? 16 : So, we make sure every 17 inmate is in the institution. 18 : The accountability of the 19 inmates. Correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : Great. So, the - so, 22 does that answer your question? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : So, the next email is 25 sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on EFTA00059041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August 10th. It says, "Why did the count 2 change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and 3 3:00 a.m.?" 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Do you remember what your 6 response was to that? 7 : I don't. 8 : And then, this one is 9 another one from III to yourself. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : It says, "The 12:00 a.m. 12 count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. -- 13 : El. 14 : -- El says 72." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : So, those kind of go 17 together. Do you remember what your findings 18 were there? 19 : I don't remember. Because 20 typically what happens on the count, you are 21 supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to 22 take one count at night, and then review 23 documentation. So, I don't know what happened 24 with the discrepancy. 25 MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn't really that EFTA00059042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 relevant, because we noted Epstein was there. 2 : No. It's relevant for 3 our investigation. 4 : Right. 5 : All right. So, if you 6 don't mind, just initialing and dating that, 7 and then, we can explain to you why that is 8 relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You 9 didn't find out what actually happened? 10 : I don't recall what the 11 response is I gave. 12 : No? And do you remember 13 looking into it at all? 14 : When was that sent? 15 : That was the day 16 : When did he send it? 17 : -- that was the day of. 18 : The day of. 19 : The day Epstein was 20 found. 21 : I don't because it was just 22 so much going on. 23 : Yeah. 24 : That I can't really remember 25 what, how I responded to them on that day. EFTA00059043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 : Do you remember learning 2 anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of 3 the counts, on the 9th and 10th? 4 : What do you mean the 5 accuracy and inaccuracy? 6 : Like, if the counts were 7 actually accurate or not. 8 : I don't recall that. 9 : You don't recall -- 10 : No. I can't think of that. 11 : -- finding out about 12 that? 13 : No. 14 : Did you recall, did you 15 find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not 16 conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 17 2019? By the SHU staff. 18 : If they did rounds or not? 19 : Correct. Did you find 20 out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- 21 minutes rounds, as well as the institution 22 counts on August 9th and 10th? 23 : I don't know if it was after 24 the fact that I was told that the Officer did 25 make their rounds. And I don't recall if it EFTA00059044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 was, they put it in the logbook, that they made 2 rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't 3 done. 4 : Okay. 5 : So, that might have been 6 something that came up afterwards. 7 : But you are not super -. 8 You know, this, you don't really know what 9 happened or didn't happen? 10 : That day. Because I mean, 11 it happened that weekend, everything was 12 moving, and then, by Monday -- 13 : Right. So -- 14 everything else just 15 changed. So -- 16 : -- but on the 10th or 17 11th, you didn't hear -- 18 -- I didn't -- 19 -- find out? 20 : -- hear anything about, 21 recall anything about that. 22 : But had you heard that 23 they didn't at least conduct some of their 24 rounds and counts? 25 : That they didn't? EFTA00059045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 : That they did not. 2 : It was - and I don't want to 3 use the word that it was just, you know, an 4 assumption, you know, like, because one of 5 them, I had asked to come up and speak with, 6 but it was , and he wouldn't come up. 7 : And this was on the 10th 8 in the morning? 9 : This was on the 10th, when 10 we got him up, because I wanted to speak with 11 him because people were telling me he was 12 distraught. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, I wanted to make sure he 15 was all right. You know? And he just, he 16 didn't want to come up and talk. 17 : What are your thoughts of 18 as an employee? 19 : I've known a couple 20 years. I never had any issues with him. You 21 know, it was any, you know, like any other 22 employee, you do something, I correct you on 23 the spot, and that's it. But I have never 24 encountered him to do anything, known him not 25 to count, do his job, you know? EFTA00059046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 : What about Ms. Tova Noel? 2 : She was new. So, she had 3 just gotten there. You know, she got the same 4 spiel from me that everybody else does. You 5 know? You are new. You can't do the things 6 that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it. 7 They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be 8 following it. 9 : And did you -- 10 : So -. 11 : -- actually speak with 12 her about that? 13 : Oh, I do that in my 14 (Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they 15 first come in. 16 : Okay. So, that is 17 something -- 18 : And I had -. 19 : -- you would have said to 20 everyone? 21 : Oh, I said it clear as day. 22 And same thing I would say in my ART class. 23 Annual Refresher Training. 24 : Because this is -- 25 : (Indiscernible *02:09:34). EFTA00059047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 : -- one of her excuses, 2 saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them, 3 they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it. Is 4 that something you clearly entrust -- 5 : So, here's my speech 6 : -- to her? 7 : -- my spiel I used to tell 8 people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20 9 year guy, and you are on probation, guess what 10 happens? He might get some time in the street. 11 You're getting fired. 12 : And are you confident 13 that Ms. Noel would have heard that speech from 14 you? 15 : She heard the speech from 16 me. 17 : Okay. 18 : Yeah. I'm confident. 19 That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing 20 in the ART. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : Good enough. 24 : So. 25 : All right. So, this is EFTA00059048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 going to go back. This is just my little list 2 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 3 I'll read to you, but -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : I just want just for 6 our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and 7 you can refer to them. On this one, at first, 8 going to be the count on the 9th, that was 9 conducted at -- 10 : 4:00 p.m. 11 : -- is this 4:00 p.m. Is 12 this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here? 13 : No. This? 14 : 4:00 p.m. 15 : 4:00 p.m. count. There's 16 just signed off -- 17 : No. There's no 4:00 p.m. 18 count. 19 : -- yeah, it's the 5:00. 20 : 5:00. Sorry. 21 : Yeah. It's -- 22 : Yeah. 23 12:00. 12:00. 3:00. 24 And 5:00. 25 : No, no. This is afternoon. EFTA00059049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 : Yeah. So, this is 2 Friday. 3 MR. HAYES: I'd say (Indiscernible 4 *02:10:40)-- 5 : All right. Friday. Is 6 that a -- 7 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41) 8 : -- 4:00 p.m. -- 9 : You told him about overnight. 10 : -- count? 11 : Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count. 12 : It's a 4:00 p.m. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. 15 : Then 4:00 p.m. Then 16 there is the 8:00 p.m. 17 : No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00. 18 : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 19 Sorry. 20 : And midnight. 21 : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 22 Midnight. 23 : 3:00 and 5:00. 24 : 3:00. And 5:00. So, 25 these are basically the time period in EFTA00059050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through 2 the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th 3 and 10th. 4 : Okay. 5 : Here are the lieutenant 6 logs. And these are the emails that, again, 7 I'm going, just going over these just because, 8 so I'm not pulling things out of thin air. 9 These are the -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- yeah, emails that we 12 were able to obtain. So, this was from a 13 . Who was the 14 at that time. 15 : Right. 16 : Fairly regularly. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : And during the morning 19 watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on 20 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It 21 says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily 22 activity report. And then, we got the daily 23 lieutenant's log here. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, where would this -? EFTA00059051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 This is just out of order. This should have 2 been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 3 sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this 4 question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 5 sends one at 5:11 a.m. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And Saturday, she sends 8 it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : And on Sunday, August 11 11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Now, reviewing all of the 14 lieutenant logs that came out prior to that 15 time, they are all sent out pretty much between 16 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- by all the various -- 19 : Right. 20 ops lieutenants. Do 21 you find it odd that she didn't send this one 22 out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein 23 was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they 24 were sent out much earlier than that. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 : Is that -? I know she 2 sent it out after the incident, and after, you 3 know, everything happened, but do you think it 4 was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26 5 a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her 6 shift ends at 6:00 a.m.? 7 : I mean -. 8 : She was relieved at 5:30 a.m. 9 by 10 : That's what I'm saying. She 11 wasn't at the -. When I got there, 12 was the lieutenant -- 13 : Correct. 14 : -- who contacted me 15 regarding -. 16 : She was supposed to be 17 gone by 5:30 a.m. 18 : So, yeah. I don't know. If 19 she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know 20 how they (Indiscernible *02:13:07). 21 : Well, that's when she was 22 relieved. She didn't leave until after this 23 was sent out at 9:26 a.m. 24 : I don't recall her being in 25 the institution around then. EFTA00059053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 : She - after Epstein was 2 found - she actually went into the SHU. She 3 helped with feeding. And then, she went back, 4 and she did some things on the computer. 5 : I thought -- 6 : And she sent it. 7 : I thought relieved 8 her, and she left. 9 : At 5:30 a.m., she was 10 relieved. She stuck around because she said 11 she had work to do. After Epstein was found, 12 she came to the SHU, and assisted 13 , who also wasn't working in the SHU, but 14 was there because he was the Comtech guy. And, 15 at the time, was gone. Noel was there. 16 But at some point, Noel left. 17 : And I'm looking at this, but 18 I was under the impression, when had told 19 me he had relieved her, and she left. 20 : So, do you find that odd, 21 then, that she was still there until -- 22 : Until 9:30. 23 at least 9:30 a.m.? 24 : Yeah. I didn't, I didn't 25 Yeah. EFTA00059054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 : This is the first you're 2 hearing of this? 3 : Yeah. Because when I was 4 told she was gone. So, unless -- 5 : Because you wanted to 6 talk with her? 7 : -- no. I mean, he relieved 8 her. So, I guess, technically, when you 9 relieve somebody, then, then it becomes your 10 issue. So, I was talking to 11 But I didn't want, you know, I, I assumed she 12 was the one that -. But I heard she had left. 13 I didn't know she had come back. 14 : She allegedly did not 15 come back. She allegedly was there 16 : There. 17 : -- the entire time. 18 : So then, that is kind of 19 odd, because usually, your log is completed 20 before you leave. 21 : Right. 22 : On your log, you will write 23 on there, I'm relieved by such and such. 24 : So, is that suspicious to 25 you at all? EFTA00059055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 : Kind of. Yeah. But I'm 2 curious as to why you didn't log it down 3 something. 4 : Now, why -? What kind of 5 employee is 6 : Had some issues with her. I 7 mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything 8 that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't 9 want to go speaking on allegations that I have 10 sent up. 11 : Was she a problem 12 employee, then? 13 : I had some issues. Yeah. 14 : Any reason why she 15 believed that she might be involved with 16 Epstein and his death? 17 : Oh, no. I wouldn't put it 18 as far as that. I mean, but it is just, I 19 wouldn't. And I don't know -- 20 MR. HAYES: She's (Indiscernible 21 *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- 22 : I mean -- 23 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). 24 : -- that's why I went over -. 25 Can you rephrase your question, like, what are EFTA00059056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 we saying? 2 : Yeah. I mean, I'm going 3 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 4 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 5 6 : I can't -- 7 : -- to probably, could you 8 -. Was there any reason to believe that she 9 could be potentially involved with this? 10 : As far as doing harm to him? 11 : Keeping his cell door 12 open. And letting another cell door open for 13 someone else. You know -- 14 : I wouldn't -- 15 : -- anything like that. 16 : I wouldn't see that. 17 : No? 18 : I couldn't see that. No. 19 : No reason to believe it 20 would go that far, just maybe insubordination 21 is the highest that she goes? 22 : Yeah. I would, you know, - 23 24 : She -- 25 : -- she has the allegations EFTA00059057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 up. I know you guys were seeing the 2 allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go 3 that far. But I can't -. 4 MR. HAYES: Well, is she in a position to 5 do something like that? 6 : What? 7 MR. HAYES: To leave the door open, or 8 something that's egregious? 9 : She does 10 rounds. 11 : Yeah. 12 : She's the= 13 MR. HAYES: She is in position to do that. 14 : But remember, when you are 15 going down range and the range door keys, you 16 can't have both. Somebody would have to let 17 her down there. 18 : Okay. 19 : And those keys. Those keys 20 go down. 21 : Do you know if she was 22 particularly friendly with either Noel or 23 24 : I don't know what their 25 relationship was. She was the shift EFTA00059058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 . So, I don't know what 2 relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible 3 *02:16:48). 4 : For the 8th, I just realized 5 we might not have the daily log for it. 6 : Fortunately, I brought 7 backups of different things. So, I think I got 8 9 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 10 : The 9th and the 10th is in 11 there. 12 MR. HAYES: I keep looking at this pile. 13 I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are 14 working hard. 15 : I don't think the 9th is 16 in there. 17 : Yeah. 18 : Just the 10th. 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 20 : No, no. It's the second set. 21 : No, that's the 10th. 22 : No, the dates are 23 : Can I say -? 24 -- the following dates. 25 Sorry. EFTA00059059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 : Can I see the time 2 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? 3 : Just, I just want to confirm 4 with that. 5 : Of course. Yeah, yeah. 6 Okay. That's the August 9th. 7 : Yeah. 8 : Okay. Great. 9 : So, those two. 10 : Yeah. 11 : That's the previous date we 12 don't have. 13 : All right. 14 (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All 15 right. So, what did you want to see? 16 : I wanted to see that 9:26 17 one. 18 : Yeah. So, that is -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- and this is what we 21 were going to show you, is the count numbers, 22 that's what we are getting at next. 23 : Wait. Which is the one -? 24 : So, this is from Friday, 25 August 9th. EFTA00059060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 : Okay. This is at what time? 2 : This just, that says morning 3 watch. 4 : Ish. 5 : Yeah, but why is it saying 6 the 10th? 7 : So, it was, the email was 8 sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when 9 10 : So, she was -. Her -- 11 : -- she included everything - 12 13 : -- shift -- 14 : -- everything from the 15 previous day. 16 : Yeah, but this is August 17 9th. 18 : They sent it out the dal. 19 after. 20 : Epstein is back. 21 : So, see this one? This 22 one is sent out on Sunday, August 11th, for the 23 day prior, starting -- 24 : Right. So -- 25 : -- Saturday, August 10th. EFTA00059061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 no, I get that. So, she 2 started. Her shift was morning watch on 3 Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she 4 is relieved by 5 : So, no, no. 6 : No, this is This should 7 be Thursday into Friday. 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. No. I -- 10 : So then, it goes -- 11 : -- yeah. See. I thought 12 this was -- 13 : -- into day watch. 14 : -- the day of. Then you go 15 to day watch, and it goes to evening watch. 16 Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the 17 day of? 18 : So, this is the day of. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Okay. 21 : And this is, we are going 22 to get into. So, this one is the day before, 23 August 9th, when Reyes left, and we can look to 24 see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if 25 we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it EFTA00059062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 says that Reyes is pre-removed. Right here. 2 "Reyes to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m." 3 : Okay. So -- 4 : That is August 9th, 2019. 5 So, we're going to go all the way down to 6 The one thing, I guess -- 7 : So, the count 8 : -- we want to look at is, 9 here, we got this individual, lam Fernandez 10 (Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell 11 with staff in R&D watch. 12 : Right. 13 : From the SHU. So, if you 14 look at the count -. Where the heck is the -? 15 : Okay. So, I just want to go 16 back to clarify something with 17 : Yup. 18 with 19 So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it. 20 Right? 21 : 9:26. 22 : So - 9:26 -- 23 : She did it. 24 : -- this was on -- 25 : The 10th morning. Saturday EFTA00059063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 morning. 2 : -- this is when she sent it 3 out. 4 : Correct. Like, three 5 hours after Epstein was found. 6 : And this is 7 : (Indiscernible 8 *02:20:03). 9 : -- Friday's log. 10 : Correct. 11 : That that's -. 12 : But they - the same 13 thing, though - they all seem to sending it out 14 the day before. 15 : The day before. And then, 16 she sent the day before logs out on Saturday. 17 Yeah. 18 : She combined it. If you look 19 through it, it has everything combined. 20 : Right. 21 : It goes from morning watch, 22 day watch, evening watch, into -- 23 : Right. But I'm just -. 24 That should have been done the day before. 25 Okay. EFTA00059064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 : I don't think you're 2 right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th. 3 The next day does the 10th. 4 : Yeah. That's right. 5 : Yeah. Okay. 6 : (Indiscernible *02:20:41) 7 combined. 8 : Yeah. That's what -- 9 : Okay. 10 : -- that's why I'm a little 11 confused about. 12 : Yeah. No. She's not -- 13 : Because when she came -- 14 : -- she does the day 15 before. 16 : -- she came on shift at 10:00 17 p.m. 18 : She started her shift at 19 10:00 -- 20 : 10:00 p.m. 21 : -- p.m. 22 : Of the 9th -- 23 : And worked until -- 24 : -- evening. 25 : -- 6:00 a.m., but got EFTA00059065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 relieved at 5:30. So 2 : That's right. 3 : -- yeah. 4 : The lieutenants were working 5 from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00. 6 : Correct. Because the, we 7 were told because of traffic issues -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- or something else. 10 : And short -. Yeah. 11 : So, what we want to, and 12 I want to kind of reference here is, Iam 13 Fernandez on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&D. 14 : Right. 15 : And the end of this shows 16 72. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 19 at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 20 a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates, 21 according to this log that sent 22 out. 23 : Right. 24 : There is supposed to only 25 be 72 inmates there. EFTA00059066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 : Right. 2 : Now, look at the shift 3 for August 10th, when this person started their 4 shift, there was 73. 5 : So -- 6 : And the institutional 7 logs -- 8 right. 9 show at 12:00 a.m., 10 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there 11 is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at 12 the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count, 13 there shows 73. And then, at the midnight 14 count, there it says 72. However, the count 15 slips, if you recall 16 : 73. 17 : -- where are the count 18 slips? So, it is -- 19 : The counts. 20 : -- it says the SHU 21 submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m. 22 Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh, 23 yeah. There. So, see? 12:00 a.m., they 24 submit it. /Noel submitted 73. 25 Although, the institutional count says 72. EFTA00059067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 Now, not , but the next one 2 shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that 3 73 is what is written in this. She went back 4 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 5 because it was determined -- 6 : That he was on the outcount, 7 and on -- 8 : -- oh, yeah. 9 : -- (Indiscernible 10 *02:22:57). 11 : And so, Fernandez was 12 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 13 on this. "One SHU correction. Fernandez dry 14 cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have 15 Fernandez right here. 16 : Looking back. 17 : Okay. So, this just 18 says, this is what happened with him. He was 19 found to have contraband, that he was providing 20 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 21 like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was 22 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 23 never -- 24 : Keyed in. 25 : -- keyed out. EFTA00059068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 : What - yeah - what they 2 should -- 3 : Keyed out of the SHU. 4 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 5 : 73. 6 : -- 73. That is what the 7 SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is 8 what - that's what, according to the system, 9 was supposed to be in there. But if they had 10 physically -- 11 : Counted. 12 -- counted -- 13 : They would have known 14 : -- it would have -- 15 : -- he wasn't there. 16 : -- been 72. Correct? 17 : Right. 18 : So, with this 19 information, and I guess as would 20 that suggest to you that they were not actually 21 conducting their counts? 22 : They weren't counting. And 23 then, there is no count slip here for the 24 inmate that was on dry cell in R&D. 25 : Right. EFTA00059069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 : There should have been a 2 count slip for him over there. So, what should 3 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 4 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 5 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 6 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 7 him should have did a count slip on him. And 8 then, whoever his back up was should have done 9 a count slip. 10 : And this is, from my 11 review of everything -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- this is what I found. 14 I don't want to put my words into 15 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to 16 you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August 17 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 18 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 19 log from August 9th, 2019." So, 20 that's what we are looking at here. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : "The day began with 77 23 inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The 24 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA 25 SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At EFTA00059070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA 2 for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. 3 The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. 4 Reyes was removed from the institution and does 5 not - and should not - appear on any counts at 6 this time. 7 At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed 8 on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the 9 accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant 10 log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 11 inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney 12 conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates 13 that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, 14 and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 15 shows 75. Inaccurate. 16 It should have reflected 74 because, 17 although there were 75 inmates assigned to the 18 SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There 19 were no inmates assigned to RA on the El 20 institutional count, and there was no count 21 slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the 22 problem begins. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : "At 6:34 p.m., inmate 25 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to EFTA00059071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate Reed (Phonetic Sp. 2 *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it 3 down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. 4 *02:26:15) and William moved to ZA, to suicide 5 watch, bringing the accurate count down to 71. 6 At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina (Phonetic Sp. 7 *02:26:23) is moved from K into ZA, bringing 8 the accurate count up to 72. 9 The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 10 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates 11 assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 12 shows 73." Oh, this is another one. I don't 13 think we brought this. "One of the counts 14 actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that 15 in there? 16 : The 10:00 p.m. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. HAYES: I admire your guys' 19 (Indiscernible *02:26:48). 20 : Yeah. You would also 21 This is all probably -- 22 : 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). 23 : -- all Chinese to you. 24 : That's how our count slips - 25 EFTA00059072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 : -- now, I did foreign 2 language 3 MR. HAYES: I don't understand -- 4 : -- should be done. 5 MR. HAYES: -- the fuck are you talking 6 about. 7 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 8 : Huh. 9 : This is 10 MR. HAYES: All these initials, and this, 11 and that. 12 : -- but the count -- 13 : So, which is interesting 14 is all of these are, as you notice, crossed 15 off. 16 right. 17 : These two are not crossed 18 off. This one says 9S + 1. This one says 73 + 19 1. The question had been, when did this 20 happen? 21 : Yeah. 22 : When did they put these 23 plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out? 24 : But you can't do a -. This 25 is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are EFTA00059073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 supposed to have the accurate count. You can't 2 do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have 3 74 on there. 4 : Or, in this case, it 5 should be 73 minus one because the accurate 6 count was actually 72. 7 : No, but you wouldn't write 8 minus one on there. You would write the actual 9 count on there. 10 : Right. 11 : So -- 12 : Okay. 13 : -- either it was 72 or 74. 14 : Right. 15 : But there is no -- 16 MR. HAYES: All right. Guys, I'm going to 17 18 : -- such thing as -- 19 MR. HAYES: -- splash water on my face 20 again. 21 : -- okay. There is no such 22 thing -- 23 MR. HAYES: You guys are getting ready to 24 kill me. 25 : -- there is no such thing as EFTA00059074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 plus one on the -- 2 : Right. 3 : -- on that. 4 : You're not allowed to 5 ghost count. Correct? 6 : No. No. There should have 7 been an outcount done. So, and this should 8 have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant 9 was, because they have to, you know, on each 10 shift, conduct a count, and review the count 11 slips. 12 : Does this tell you 13 anything, though, that these were crossed off, 14 and these weren't? 15 : Yeah. Unless, I don't know 16 why -- 17 : Do you think that they 18 were replaced at a later date, or -? 19 : I mean, it gives the 20 appearance. Because at first, I would want to 21 know, why you cross out. Why these -- 22 : They cross out because, 23 as things come in -- 24 : No. 25 : -- you check it off. EFTA00059075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 : So, that's what I want to 2 know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, 3 I'm looking at -. 4 : So, basically, I think it's 5 standard practice, as a control officer? 6 : No. I mean, I've worked 7 control, and what I would do is, I would do the 8 check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -. 9 And that's people's style. 10 : Okay. 11 : That might be their style. 12 So, I just want to know -. 13 : This one is Cale 14 (Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe. 15 : Huh? 16 : Cale. 17 : So then 18 : This one. 19 then that's how Cale does 20 it. So, my question is then, why isn't this 21 done -- 22 : Right. 23 like that. I mean, 24 this, if Cale does it like that, then that's 25 his consistent way of checking it out. But if EFTA00059076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this is all on that shift 2 : But point being, you will 3 agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on, 4 the counts were not conducted. Correct? 5 : No. They weren't done 6 right. 7 : The SHU counts? 8 : Yeah. 9 : Okay. Then we don't need 10 to really go into too much -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- detail with that. Is 13 this the first that you are seeing this? 14 : Yeah. I haven't seen that 15 before. 16 : Okay. 17 MR. HAYES: This was still on the counts? 18 : No. 19 : Now, we're going to move 20 on because the warden agrees that there is not 21 really reason to really dig further, because he 22 agrees this clearly shows that the counts were 23 not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time 24 on. 25 : Do you want to ask about the EFTA00059077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 Fernandez key? 2 : What about it? 3 : Who's responsible? 4 : So, Fernandez -. Oh, can 5 you just - sorry - would you mind signing, 6 initialing and just dating? If Fernandez was 7 actually removed from the SHU -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- and placed onto R, you 10 know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and 11 R&D are interchangeable. Correct? 12 : RA -- 13 : Because RA for - RA, I 14 believe, is what it shows in the count slip, 15 but it stands for the R&D -- 16 : That's the R&D -- 17 -- right? 18 area. I believe. Yeah. 19 : So, if he's actually 20 moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August 21 9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for 22 keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into 23 the RA, so that the count would be accurately 24 reflected? 25 : SHU would have notified EFTA00059078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 control center, that we are moving one over to 2 R&D. 3 : And by that notification, 4 do they also say, can you please key him out, 5 and into? Or is that just automatically done 6 by control? 7 : Well, the notification is 8 made to control that inmate such and such is 9 being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you 10 key the inmate to that area. 11 : Sure. 12 : So, I'll give you a quick 13 background. It looks like 14 MR. HAYES: Who is that? 15 : Right. 16 witnessed this. 17 : (Indiscernible 18 *02:31:02). 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : And he wrote up the shot. 21 : Right. 22 : And he called the lieutenant. 23 He requested the lieutenant. 24 : Right. 25 : And it looks like he EFTA00059079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified 2 control -- 3 : Okay. 4 -- that an inmate was being 5 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 6 *02:31:20). 7 : Well, no, no, no, no. 8 wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 9 : He doesn't recall -- 10 : I wouldn't -. 11 : But then, while the counts 12 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 13 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 14 need to do a count slip because I have an 15 inmate down there. 16 MR. HAYES: Is this where somebody 17 disappears, that we're looking for? 18 : Right. 19 : Again, I told you, this 20 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 21 say what does the warden, you know, and the 22 boss of this place, what is his take on these 23 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot 24 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to 25 figure out why these things went wrong. So, EFTA00059080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we 2 move on, that I got everything. All right? 3 So, first, before we get into rounds, when a 4 lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- are they required to 7 conduct a round of the inmates going up and 8 down the different tiers, or does the round 9 consist of just checking in with the officers 10 to make sure everything is okay? 11 : Well, you check the officer 12 to make sure they are all right, and you check 13 the documentation. So, you check, you know, 14 you edit, you would have to review the post 15 orders also. To state what their duties are. 16 I mean, all of us had different, you know, I 17 was a lieutenant, so it was different things 18 you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make 19 sure, you know, the officers checked off, you 20 know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. 21 I would check to see if medical came up. So, 22 it would factor and depend on what shift you 23 went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates 24 are up, so you're going, you know, you can go 25 around. Evening shift, you can see what's EFTA00059081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 going on. The midnight shift, they're 2 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 3 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 4 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 5 documentation. 6 : Now, as , did 7 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 8 range when they were doing their lieutenant 9 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 10 specifically when they are, like, signing off 11 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 12 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 13 These are round sheets that -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- you sent to Mr. 16 , where it shows the different 17 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 18 round. 19 : But what does -- 20 : So, what does that -? 21 : -- what the lieutenants are 22 checking for is accuracy of the officer's 23 rounds. 24 : Okay. This is -. 25 : So, what they are checking EFTA00059082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks 2 done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are 3 not being done, you know, so, you know, then it 4 needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is 5 what the issue was. But if they are signing 6 it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you 7 know, that the time that the round will put 8 down, that they were down. 9 : Now, what would be -? 10 This is the round, it looks like for 8/8. Can 11 you think of a reason why these wouldn't be 12 done? But they would be signed off on right 13 here? 14 : Let me see. So, if a 15 lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was 16 empty like this, then it is a problem. 17 : Because you have this 18 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing 19 that they were conducted, but this lieutenant 20 signed it. 21 : That's a problem. 22 : The same thing. We go, 23 this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks 24 like they didn't even sign it until here. On 25 8/8. EFTA00059083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 : Wait. Did you print these 2 off the logbook, or -? 3 : This is what you sent to 4 5 : Right. 6 : On Saturday, August 10th, 7 at 6:21 p.m. 8 : Now, the only other thing 9 can think of, and when I had gathered 10 something, I might have said, because the 11 checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30- 12 minute checks, so they -- 13 : This is also -- 14 : -- you know, these are -- 15 : -- this is the day, this 16 is two days before Epstein was found. 17 : -- no, this is -. No. 18 was thinking of the log. The log did it 19 electronic. But this, no. This 20 : We have the electronic 21 version. 22 : -- yeah. This is 23 : Which one? 24 no, this is -. That 25 means -- EFTA00059084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 : So, this is just wrong? 2 yeah. This is wrong. 3 : Should have this 4 signed that? 5 : No. He should have signed 6 it. They should have put something -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- listed as some 9 discrepancy, why the checks weren't done. 10 : And on these, whereas it 11 looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it 12 looks like probably because these are done. Do 13 you think that is the reason why this 14 individual hadn't signed these? Because these 15 weren't correct? 16 : Probably. I can't speculate 17 on that. 18 : Because it says -- 19 : I can't. 20 reviewed by morning 21 watch Where they do that, well, 22 that does start signing it here, 23 where they are now filled out. 24 : Right. 25 : For the same date. EFTA00059085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 : So, this looks - hey, I 2 don't know who it was - but this looks 3 (Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it. 4 : Okay. 5 : Let me see how those 30- 6 minute. That's the same one. I don't know who 7 it was. Who it was. 8 : Okay. So, that was 9 (Indiscernible *02:36:19). Certainly go look, 10 but whomever it was during those shift. And 11 then, we get into, it looks like, 12 (Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these. 13 Here is the 8/9. Where -- 14 : Right. 15 : -- it's signed off, 16 signed off, until 2:00 p.m. 17 : That's a problem. 18 : After that, no sign off. 19 Same thing. 20 : Yeah. 21 : That's just when I think 22 left his shift, or somewhere around 23 that time. So -. 24 MR. HAYES: The point of this, if I may 25 ask, is we got a miscount, right? EFTA00059086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : We're not -- 3 MR. HAYES: This is -- 4 : -- we've moved on from 5 counts. Now we're on rounds. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, counts. The 7 significance of the counts is, at some point, 8 Reyes disappears? 9 : No. The significance of 10 the counts is that, if inmates - or if the 11 staff members aren't conducting counts and - 12 counts are to the accountability of the 13 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 14 MR. HAYES: Right. 15 : Rounds -- 16 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 17 : -- are basically to make 18 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 19 correct, sir? 20 : You are right. Counts are 21 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 22 are basically safety checks. 23 : So, the point of these 24 questioning is, it looks like at - what we just 25 finished was counts - we have shown that the EFTA00059087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 staff members were not conducting their counts. 2 : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: Right. Because that is why 4 you have 72 when it should be -- 5 : Now we are doing rounds. 6 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:37:41). 7 : To find out were the 8 staff members conducting their rounds. 9 MR. HAYES: Got it. 10 : And again, we have, in 11 this case, a very high-profile inmate that was 12 deceased. Became deceased at some point. 13 MR. HAYES: And they think -- 14 : And -- 15 MR. HAYES: -- plus it's whether they -- 16 : -- yeah, it -- 17 MR. HAYES: -- noticed on their rounds 18 that the guy was deceased. 19 : -- if they were 20 conducting -- 21 MR. HAYES: Or -. 22 : -- rounds at all. And if 23 they were conducting rounds, would that be - 24 and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask 25 you now, since I'm making that explanation - if EFTA00059088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 they were conducting their rounds, would that 2 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 3 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 4 know it's not going to prevent it in every 5 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 6 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 7 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 8 are breathing. 9 : It is true, but I mean, and 10 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 11 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 12 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 13 to do it. 14 : Right. And that goes 15 into play with why -- 16 MR. HAYES: They just 17 : Right. 18 MR. HAYES: -- they just look, they do 19 rounds by looking in their cell. 20 : Right. 21 MR. HAYES: So, if you want to -- 22 : To check. 23 MR. HAYES: -- do harm, you just wait 24 until they go passed your cell. 25 : Right. And then, you kind EFTA00059089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 of figure out the timing of the route. But the 2 fact remains, if you are not showing on the 3 form that you did your rounds, then that's, 4 that's a problem. 5 : So, when you are looking 6 at these rounds that you sent , are 7 you finding problems because they are not 8 completed correctly? You know, what we just 9 looked through. In fact, you know, these are 10 August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09), 11 they're not signed off. There's blocks that 12 are not filled in. 13 : Yeah. Looking at them now? 14 : Right. 15 : What is the question? 16 : Well, does it show you 17 that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to 18 be filled out correctly? 19 : Yes. 20 : And that is for the 8th, 21 as well? 22 : Right. 23 : Okay. So, that was 24 MR. HAYES: And that is something, it was 25 your job to pass that on to EFTA00059090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 : No. He requested -- 2 : No, no, no, no. 3 : -- the information. 4 : This is just to show that 5 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- what the round sheets 8 that sent to 9 were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of, 10 hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It 11 has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did 12 it right or not. It's, what his staff members 13 14 MR. HAYES: Right. 15 : -- doing it right. 16 MR. HAYES: Right. 17 : And who was responsible 18 to make sure the round sheets are done 19 correctly? 20 : Well, the staff working up 21 there are responsible. And then, the 22 supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are 23 doing it. 24 : And what is this? This 25 was also attached. What is that right there, EFTA00059091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 that we are looking at? 2 : Hmm. 3 : TruScope logs? 4 : Yeah. This looks like 5 TruScope. This looks like the log. And so, 6 like, if they are doing what areas they search. 7 : And these are searches? 8 : Yeah. These looks like 9 searches. 10 : Okay. 11 : Let me see that. Search. 12 Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. 13 Recreation area. Yeah. These are -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- these are search areas. 16 : Does it show anywhere in 17 there that there was any cells that were 18 searched, or are they just all, like, common 19 areas? 20 : No. They searched it. Look 21 how -. What is this? Nine South. SHU. 22 Completed all. These are, these looks like 23 everything they have done in there. The fire 24 and safety checks. This is - it looks like the 25 log. EFTA00059092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 : Okay. So, this goes with 2 you. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : So, all to this. This is 5 something else that we asked for the BOP to 6 print out for us, and this one specifically one 7 we asked. When you send us the cell searches 8 that were conducted on 8/9/2019 -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- we got back one. By 11 Mr. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : It say that it was 14 conducted at 12:36 p.m. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : On 8/9/2019. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Is that a problem? That 19 only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? 20 According to, at least according to TruScope. 21 : Because I believe the post 22 orders state it is supposed to be - and don't 23 quote me on it -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- you have to look at the EFTA00059093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 post orders - but they state, I think five a 2 shift. A minimum of five. 3 : It's five, I believe -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- for the night watch. 6 The day watch, I believe, is more. And the 7 morning -- 8 MR. HAYES: They're supposed to do five 9 -- watch is just 10 (Indiscernible *02:41:59). 11 MR. HAYES: -- cell searches? 12 : No, no. Each shift is a 13 minimum of five. 14 : I don't think -- 15 : And then -- 16 : -- that includes that 17 morning watch, though -- 18 : -- the morning watch is -- 19 : -- because there's -- 20 : -- area. 21 : -- right. 22 : Yeah. You are 23 : Common areas. 24 : -- picking the common area. 25 MR. HAYES: So, let me get this clear. EFTA00059094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 : Yeah. 2 MR. HAYES: You are supposed to do five 3 cell shifts, five cell searches per shift? 4 : Yes. That is 5 MR. HAYES: All right. And in this case, 6 there is only an indication that they did one? 7 : One. Right? 8 : One the whole day. 9 : One the day whole. 10 : Not per shift. The whole 11 day. 12 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, whose job is it 13 : No. 14 MR. HAYES: -- to say why aren't you doing 15 those? I was going to use the F word. Why 16 aren't you doing all the cell shifts? 17 : Well, this is, this is my 18 question to is, is that a problem, 19 that there was only one logged into TruScope? 20 : Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 21 : Does that indicate that 22 the cells were not being searched, to you? Or 23 that they just weren't logging them in? 24 : And again, whoever was 25 working that day, you're going to have to ask EFTA00059095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 them. I mean -- 2 : And we have. 3 looking at 4 : And it was just -- 5 looking on paper, I mean, 6 it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your 7 searches. 8 : Okay. 9 : I mean, now, there might 10 have been a reason where the person said, okay, 11 the computers were down or whatever, but it is 12 highly unlikely for -. 13 MR. HAYES: So, but you are literally 14 going into a cell and search it? Does that 15 mean -- 16 : Yeah, yeah. 17 MR. HAYES: -- you throw over the 18 mattresses, the whole thing? 19 : No. You pull them out. You 20 look at -- 21 MR. HAYES: Okay. 22 : -- look and check the 23 lockers. You check under their stuff. You 24 know, and you typically do it, like on certain 25 days when the guys are going out to take a EFTA00059096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22- 1 shower, you might go out and do that. 2 : So, with your suggestion 3 that computers could be down and things like 4 that, as you can see from the email attachment 5 that you said, there are certainly plenty of 6 searches that were entered in there 7 : Oh. 8 : -- but there is only one 9 cell search. 10 : Right. 11 : And so, I would assume, 12 would that indicate that the computers are 13 actually up and running? 14 : Yes. So, this one, this is 15 the same day? 16 : What are you looking -- 17 : That could be (Indiscernible 18 *02:43:42). 19 : -- yeah, this should be 20 8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10. 21 : 8/9 -- 22 : I would think. 23 reg number. Reg number. 24 : It shows the dates here. 25 I just can't see them. EFTA00059097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 : Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 2 This is a search one. This is the log. 3 : Okay. So, problematic, 4 in your opinion? 5 : Yes. It is. 6 : All right. So, not only 7 searching them, but is it equally as important 8 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 9 whether things are being searched? 10 : Yes. You should log it. 11 : All right. Now, this, 12 this comes to the kind of question on this. 13 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 14 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 15 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 16 database said, where he should have been? He 17 was in the wrong cell. 18 : I did hear, afterwards, that 19 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 20 they keyed into the cells. 21 : All right. And what did 22 you hear? 23 : I think, just that the cell, 24 the way the inmates were being keyed in was 25 off, it didn't match this cell. EFTA00059098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 : Right. 2 : That. 3 : So, yeah, his assigned 4 cell within the SOP database was not where he 5 was located -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- in person. At least 8 when he was found on August 10th, 2019. 9 : Right. 10 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that is 11 - I should shut up, right? 12 : No, no. I'm good. 13 : Go ahead. 14 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that 15 goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility 16 to see where guys are being celled? 17 : No. But I mean -- 18 : Yeah. Most of my 19 questions to him isn't that -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- it's his 22 responsibility, it's whose responsibility was 23 it? 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 25 : And then -. EFTA00059099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 : So, who should have made 2 sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database, 3 matched where he was physically located? 4 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 5 information that he wasn't in his assigned 6 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 7 people not trusting the government. So, we are 8 just trying to figure out -. 9 : Well, and this is not a 10 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 11 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 12 far as specific keying in cells. I don't think 13 this was done in a malicious -. 14 : So, what happened here, 15 our investigation shows is that when he came 16 back from -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- from suicide, or 19 psychological observation, he was placed into 20 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 21 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 22 (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? 23 : CPAP. 24 : His CPAP machine, the 25 cord didn't reach the plug. EFTA00059100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : So, they had to move him 3 to a different cell. 4 : Right. 5 : So, from July 30th to 6 August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned 7 cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, 8 you know, and my thought being is, well, if 9 they are doing their cell searches -- 10 : Oh, I thought you meant -- 11 : -- wouldn't -. 12 : -- the cell didn't match up 13 with -- 14 : No, no, they -- 15 : -- (Indiscernible 16 *02:46:52). 17 : -- they logged him into 18 the cell that he was placed in, coming out of 19 psychological observation. 20 : Right. 21 : On the 30th. Then, they 22 physically moved him to a different cell. 23 : Right. 24 : On the 30th. Because his 25 CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach. EFTA00059101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. HAYES: What is a CPAP machine? 2 : It's the snore -. It's 3 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. HAYES: And he needed a CPAP machine? 6 : Yes, sir. 7 : For the snoring. 8 : So -- 9 MR. HAYES: Don't call me sir. Please. 10 I'm old. All right? You're reminding me. 11 : And so, no one ever went 12 back into the system from, all the way from the 13 30th up to August 10th, and made that 14 correction. 15 : Right. 16 : Who was responsible for 17 that? 18 : So, whoever made the cell 19 change should have contacted control center. 20 : And is the control center 21 that actually made the change, not the 22 individuals in SHU, or the SHU 23 : No. The -- 24 : Because my understanding 25 it would have been the SHU or the EFTA00059102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 OIC. 2 : Bed changes? 3 : To verify their cellmates 4 where were the Wherever the BOP databases 5 said they are. 6 : So, you have to, you would 7 have to call control center to make that 8 change. 9 : Okay. So, who should 10 have called the control center? 11 : Whoever made the change in 12 Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me 13 if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU 14 staff have control over keying where an inmate 15 is in. 16 : Yeah. No. I thought the 17 OIC might, or the that the SHU -- 18 : No, because -- 19 would. 20 : -- in that case, beds would 21 be really messed up. 22 : Right, right, right. 23 : So, the control center is a 24 centralized area. 25 : Okay. EFTA00059103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 234 1 : So, a call should have been 2 made down to control, saying, hey, this is 3 where he's being keyed to, and this is what -. 4 : And who should have made 5 that call? 6 : Whoever made the change. 7 Whoever switched him. 8 : And my understanding is 9 that the OIC and the SHU were 10 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 11 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 12 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 13 : Yeah. You do a, what we 14 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 15 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 16 you have a board up there, and you just match 17 where everyone is at. 18 : And how often should that 19 happen? 20 : There is no set policy, but 21 as a good practice, you know, you kind of want 22 to check what your open cells are, where, you 23 know, where individuals are. And should it 24 also be checked if they were doing cell 25 searches? Would that be caught, if they were EFTA00059104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 doing searches? 2 : Well, if you are doing a 3 cell search, all you are going to do is put 4 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 5 It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be 6 able to find out if it is the correct room. 7 : Okay. 8 : And the correct bed in 9 Sentry. 10 : All right. 11 : But, you know -. 12 : So, in this instance, 13 then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let 14 you answer, who -- 15 MR. HAYES: I have the same problem. 16 : -- who is it that should 17 have notified control center to make this 18 change? It sounds like you said whoever 19 physically moved him, at the time? 20 : So, what happens is, whoever 21 physically moved him should have said, okay, 22 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 23 we are moving him. And then, you let the - 24 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will 25 call down to control center. EFTA00059105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 : And if that didn't -. 2 MR. HAYES: Can I speak to my client for a 3 second? 4 : Yeah. 5 : Sure. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Do you want me 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- do you want me to push 10 pause? 11 : No. 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah, no. I'll take him to 13 the other -. 14 : Okay. 15 : Sure. Okay. It's 4:46 16 p.m., and this is Senior Special Agent 17 Matulewicz, and I'm pushing pause. 18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 19 off the record and back on the record). 20 : The recorder is back on. 21 It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I 22 remind you, sir, you are still under oath. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : All right. So, we 25 stopped with the, we were talking about who was EFTA00059106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was 2 logged into the correct cell within the -- 3 : Question. 4 -- BOP database system. 5 : Were there other cells that 6 were wrong? 7 : Do you know that, 8 : Not We don't know if -. 9 This, we know only because we checked this. 10 : Okay. So, I mean, 11 everything else could have been right, and that 12 could have been a -- 13 : No. Well, we found out, 14 this is the reason was because, again, he was 15 placed into that cell, and then moved because 16 of the CPAP machine. 17 : No. I was -- 18 : Well, our question was 19 : -- you know, wondering if it 20 is a systematic, or an individual problem. 21 : Correct. 22 : That's why I was just 23 curious. 24 : Yeah. And that's 25 something that we should probably -. EFTA00059107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. HAYES: Well, and my question is, does 2 that have any effect on count? I mean, they 3 still should be able to look in the cells if 4 there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). 5 : Well, when -- 6 : Well, the problem comes 7 in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, 8 now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, 9 and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just, 10 you know -- 11 MR. HAYES: But I'm saying -- 12 : -- the media says all of 13 these things that went wrong. 14 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 15 : One being -- 16 MR. HAYES: I've had that. 17 wait, he's not even in 18 the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and 19 who was responsible? 20 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, so, my question 21 is, does it make any difference? I mean, if 22 they are supposed to do the count, the count is 23 you look in the cell, and see -- 24 : Right. 25 MR. HAYES: -- whether there's a guy in EFTA00059108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's 2 not in, he's still in his cell. 3 : No. Correct. 4 MR. HAYES: You know? 5 : But because we are doing 6 this deep dive review -- 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. I gotcha. 8 : -- it's showing these 9 different, you know -- 10 MR. HAYES: Got it. Okay. 11 : -- and again, this is, 12 this is one of those things -- 13 MR. HAYES: You're just being extra 14 careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible 15 *02:52:14). 16 : -- and not like 17 (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have 18 to, we have to address the fact that -- 19 MR. HAYES: He wasn't in the right cell. 20 : -- Mr. Epstein wasn't in 21 the cell that he was assigned to. 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. I mean, it's not just 23 that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that 24 he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, 25 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong EFTA00059109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE _1 - 1 number of prisoners. 2 : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: That's a lot of mistakes. 4 : Right. And we haven't 5 even gotten involved. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : As I'm sure you know. 8 But -- 9 MR. HAYES: Right. 10 : -- so, after the person 11 who moved him didn't contact and have this 12 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 13 then, how would have anyone found out that he 14 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 15 place to ensure that where they are matches up 16 with the actual database? 17 : Well, I guess if they were 18 doing -- 19 : You said bed book counts? 20 : -- yeah. Usually, you could 21 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 22 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 23 they are supposed to be. When you are updating 24 your accountability board, you would look and 25 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? EFTA00059110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 And then, match it up with, you know, with 2 Sentry. 3 : And who would be doing 4 those things? 5 : The staff working up there 6 in SHU. 7 : Is the , the 8 SHU , at all involved, as far as you 9 know, in making sure that this is all accurate? 10 : Well, he was spearheading it 11 to make sure everything was -- 12 MR. HAYES: He was the supervisor. 13 : -- was right. Yeah. He was 14 the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, 15 let's, did this happen? Have we done this? 16 And have we done that? 17 : Okay. 18 MR. HAYES: And -. Okay. Just to make me 19 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 20 or not he should have a, he had a roommate. 21 : Right. 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. And somebody dropped 23 the ball as to whether he was in the right 24 cell. 25 : Right. EFTA00059111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. And then, somebody 2 would have dropped the ball as to either, 3 dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't 4 find out that he wasn't on the count. They had 5 said we did a count, but they didn't notice 6 that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you 7 know what I mean? 8 : Right. 9 MR. HAYES: Okay. That starts to be a 10 problem. 11 : So, just pointed 12 out to me. On the after-action review -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- they did review this. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : And it says that, 17 according to their review -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- this is not my review. 20 : Right. 21 : Or review. 22 "Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry 23 regarding cell quarters assignments." QRT. 24 QTR. "Although it is well documented, inmate 25 Epstein was housed with two other inmates EFTA00059112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 during his assignment in the SHU. Sentry does 2 not reflect this information accurately. 3 Inmate Epstein was found within cell 220, that 4 Sentry never reflects him being housed within 5 that cell at any time." But to answer your 6 question, the first sentence says that there is 7 significant -- 8 : Okay. 9 : -- discrepancies. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : The way that I read that 12 is, overall, whether they are referring to 13 specifically Epstein -- 14 : Epstein. 15 : -- that, I am not able to 16 determine -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- based upon that 19 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 20 they had some discrepancies. So, 21 Rice would have supervised it, but it's really 22 the staff that would be responsible for doing 23 these bed book counts, and making sure 24 assignments are -- 25 : Yeah. He did it right there EFTA00059113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21_ 1 2 : -- the inmates are in 3 their assigned -? 4 : -- and then, whoever is 5 moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you 6 make the notification. 7 : And is it surprising to 8 you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't 9 caught? 10 : At two weeks later from 11 where? 12 : From -. He was placed 13 into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found 14 August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was 15 never caught that he was not -- 16 : In the right cell. 17 : -- locked in the right 18 cell. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Is that a significant 21 amount of time that went by without catching 22 that? 23 : Without catching it. It is. 24 : Now, is that, you know, 25 all staff that was in there, or is it, like, EFTA00059114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 really -? 2 : And again, and you probably 3 have to speak to the captain who was 4 responsible for doing the checks, and doing the 5 count. 6 : So, would the captain 7 have some responsibility on this, too? 8 : Well, did the captain is in 9 charge of correctional services. So, that is 10 the unit he is over. 11 : Okay. 12 : So, he has overall 13 responsibility to make sure, you know, in 14 conjunction with the , that the unit 15 is running the way it is supposed to run. 16 : And what should have the 17 captain done in order to make sure that that 18 was accurate? 19 : Well, now, there is 20 different ways of finding out if stuff is 21 accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit 22 system. Where they are responsible - the 23 lieutenants - are responsible to conduct 24 perpetual audits. So, you can find out through 25 those, when you do it. And they are usually EFTA00059115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 2 things are going on in that department of 3 correctional services, we have what we call 4 perpetual audits, which he maintained the 5 records of, and that is another checks and 6 balance where you would find out if something 7 is wrong. 8 : And how often are those 9 done? 10 : Those are done quarterly. 11 : Quarterly? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, the fact 14 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 15 or 11 days, there is a good chance that they 16 weren't done during that time period? Or do 17 you know when they would be done? Are they 18 done, like, on a certain date? 19 : What, the quarterly? 20 : Yeah. 21 : It's - and I don't know when 22 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 23 to your checks and balance. You know -- 24 : Right. 25 : -- you do your perpetual EFTA00059116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh, 2 wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And 3 then, you come up with the corrective action to 4 fix it. 5 : So, that's how the 6 captain could have determined, I guess -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- but how, in those 9 : The captain would find out. 10 : -- ten or 11 days, how 11 would have that been caught? 12 : Again, you would have to see 13 your, your inmate accountability board. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : You know, are you matching 16 Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and 17 matching it with what is on the board. 18 : But - and I apologize 19 that I'm beating -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- a dead horse here, 22 but, like, who does that? 23 : Again, I don't know who, you 24 know, who the assigned it to, who 25 the OIC. You know, everybody has different EFTA00059117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 duties, and -- 2 : So, it is not like -- 3 different ways that work. 4 : -- not like morning watch 5 does this, or it's just based upon what passed 6 down from lieutenant to the OIC -- 7 : Right. Like, what -- 8 : -- to whoever. 9 : -- no, but basically, when 10 you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't 11 see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an 12 accountability check like that, because the 13 guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are 14 looking for a living, breathing body, but you 15 can't physically see them. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : You know, so, what shift was 18 picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure 19 our cell, the accountability in the cell. So, 20 I can't -- 21 : You can't really answer 22 the question. 23 : I can't really speak -. 24 : Sure. That's fine. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 : All right. Let's get 2 this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind, 3 this -- 4 MR. HAYES: Am I right that we are getting 5 close to the bottom of the pile? 6 : We are. We are getting 7 close. 8 MR. HAYES: Because Jesus Christ, I can't 9 take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). 10 : We are -. (Indiscernible 11 *02:58:31) with this. 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, this is the email 15 with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. 16 And these were separate. 17 MR. HAYES: Now, let me ask the question 18 (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. 19 Your job is the prison. It's your job to look 20 down into the prison, as far as these counts 21 and, you know, accountability boards, and so 22 forth. 23 : No. I mean, that is what 24 you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. 25 (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? EFTA00059119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. 2 : And then, we touched on 3 this before, but this is an email that the 4 captain sent to you. 5 : Right. 6 : Regarding the lieutenant 7 rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent 8 this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, 9 here are the lieutenant rounds 10 for 8/9 to 8/10. Below are the workstations 11 logged on to complete rounds." 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : But again, for you, a 14 lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever 15 came to that conclusion, or that we may have 16 got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round 17 is used primarily to check in, and it's not 18 necessarily to go down the different ranges? 19 : On the midnight shift. So, 20 they typically not, you know, unless they have 21 an issue, but like you said, you as a 22 lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and 23 see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the 24 other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see 25 what's going on. EFTA00059120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 2 : All right. So, should 3 they, though, be walking down the ranges on 4 both the morning, or the day watch and the 5 night watch? Evening watch. 6 : This is what I will say. 7 You probably got to look at the post orders and 8 see -- 9 : Yeah. The post orders 10 : -- the post orders. 11 : -- aren't clear with 12 that. 13 : Yeah. 14 : We haven't -- 15 : So, it's not -. 16 : -- we haven't been able 17 to -- 18 : It's not -- 19 : -- specifically 20 determine. 21 : -- that's what I mean, it's 22 not a requirement. 23 : Okay. 24 : You know, for the 25 (Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there, EFTA00059121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 1 making rounds, checking the books, to see if 2 you got a problem on the range. You would call 3 that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just 4 walk the ranges. Just to see what is going on. 5 : Because most lieutenants 6 that we talked to -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- said that they were 9 absolutely required to do -- 10 : Right. 11 : -- a round, just like a 12 SHU staff member -- 13 : Right. 14 : -- was to do a round. 15 Some lieutenants -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- specifically, 18 lieutenants that worked that day -- 19 : Right. 20 : -- said, nope, there's n- 21 requirement to do that. 22 : But -- 23 : So, that's where I'm, as 24 25 : Well -- EFTA00059122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2`? 1 : -- who is right? 2 : No. The expectation is, 3 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 4 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 5 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 6 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 7 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 8 we are talking about the post orders, were they 9 required to? The post, you know, the post 10 orders, I don't believe had the requirement 11 that they have to, you know 12 : Okay. 13 : -- physically go in the 14 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 15 : So, does that - if I 16 understand you correctly - the expectation was 17 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 18 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 19 so? 20 : Yeah. You should be walking 21 around. 22 : All right. 23 : To see if everything 24 : But it's not like you 25 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure EFTA00059123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you are doing this. 2 : No. 3 : So, there is no -- 4 : No. 5 : -- so, if someone wasn't 6 doing it, it's not like something they would be 7 disciplined for? 8 : See, that's hard. I mean, 9 to say you would discipline. There is a 10 difference between what is written down, and 11 what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are 12 coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I 13 want to see what's going around the unit. 14 might ask the officer, all right, do we have 15 any problems. The inmates, when you come on, 16 hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, 17 lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are 18 going down the ranges. You know, so, when you 19 are going down the range, you are seeing 20 something. You get to another range. The 21 inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, 22 it is something you should be doing as part of 23 your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just 24 walking around, to make sure everything is -. 25 : But if you were still the EFTA00059124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 2 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 3 doing rounds -- 4 : Right. 5 : -- and you found out that 6 they were only checking in with the staff 7 members, and they were not actually walking 8 down the ranges, is that something that you 9 would find problematic? 10 : I would correct it. 11 : And when you say correct 12 it, what do you mean by that? 13 : I would tell, you know, get 14 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 15 they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, 16 they need to walk the ranges. 17 : So, they should be 18 walking the ranges, then? 19 : Off of the post orders, it' , 20 not in there, you know -- 21 : I know. I -- 22 : -- any place saying that you 23 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like 24 any unit you walk on, you want to see what is 25 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the EFTA00059125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 word "sound correctional judgment"? You know, 2 just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. 3 I mean, you have some people that go above and 4 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 5 some people that want to do the bare minimum. 6 But that is something 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 from a rounds point of 9 view, I would say you need to make those 10 rounds. 11 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me ask you a 12 question. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. HAYES: You do the rounds. Does that 15 mean literally walk up and down this, what we, 16 what I would call the cell block? 17 : Yeah. You walk around the 18 unit. You know, you are interacting with 19 inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same 20 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 21 are walking around. Hey, what's going on? 22 : So, what you are not 23 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. 24 : Right. 25 : There is different EFTA00059126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 levels, and there is different -- 2 MR. HAYES: Yeah, I've been to the SHU. 3 : -- hallways. 4 MR. HAYES: Know what I remember about the 5 SHU? It's fucking cold. 6 : Right. 7 : Yeah. So, like, if you 8 are just, you can simply go in and go to the 9 officer's station, and check in with the staff 10 and say -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- everything good? You 13 got all your paperwork in order? All your 14 paperwork is actually right here on the desk. 15 Did you find it problematic that they are 16 keeping all of their round sheets on the desk 17 versus on the ranges themselves? 18 : Different places do it 19 different ways. 20 : Okay. 21 : Some -- 22 : So -. 23 : -- some places have it, they 24 keep it at the end of the range, and you sign 25 it. Some have it right there, the log, you EFTA00059127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 know, take the logbook and they just sign it. 2 So -. 3 : So, the individuals, the 4 ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that 5 we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and 6 August 10th -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- a majority of them 9 said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all I 10 needed to do was go to that officer's station, 11 check in with my officers, make sure their 12 paperwork is done, and then I left. Every 13 other that we talked to said, no. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : When you sign that paper, 16 you are signing it just like you conducted a 17 round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : You had to go down every 20 range -- 21 : Right. 22 : -- make sure everything 23 was good to go. You are not just checking on. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, what we are trying to EFTA00059128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 say is, which one is right? 2 : Well, now, for the ones that 3 are saying that I don't have to go down and 4 check every range, they are going off the post 5 office. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : The ones that are doing 8 their job, they are going around and checking 9 every time. 10 : Okay. 11 : Making sure the wellbeing of 12 the inmates, and you are checking on the 13 wellbeing of your staff. 14 : All right. So, it kind 15 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 16 wrong? They need to change the post orders? 17 : Well, they would, they would 18 have - should put in -- 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 20 : -- their post orders, but 21 they should be going around, and 22 MR. HAYES: So, they should have a rule 23 : -- the wellness check. 24 MR. HAYES: -- that says, you got to go 25 around? EFTA00059129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 : Yeah. 2 : Okay. 3 : So. 4 : So, no one technically 5 did anything wrong. They should just really do 6 it? 7 : They should. They should 8 just do it. 9 : Okay. Fair enough. 10 : The term used was "sound 11 correctional judgment." 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. So, that - 14 again - was that email from to you, with 15 the lieutenant rounds. 16 MR. HAYES: Damn. That pile is a lot 17 lower. 18 : Unless you want to go right 19 back on it. 20 : Now, this says -- 21 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 22 I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that 23 pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to 24 give you some of that money back, but I can't 25 take this shit no more. EFTA00059130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 : So, this one says it's 2 from Norman Reed. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : To you. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Who is Norman Reed? 7 : He aws a unit manager there 8 for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23). 9 : Okay. At the MCC? 10 : Yeah. 11 : It says, subject, "Weekly 12 rounds -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- as requested." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : So, these are weekly 17 rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that 18 for? 19 : That was for our wit sec 20 unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:34). 21 : Oh, okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : So, you actually had your 24 own separate wit sec unit? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059131 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 : So, that is not in SHU? 2 Or is it? 3 : Huh? No. That's not in 4 SHU. That is a separate unit all together. 5 : So, why was this 6 provided? For any reason? 7 : Because I like to I used 8 to like to track who was making their rounds 9 and not making their rounds. 10 : All right. 11 : So, they had to send it to 12 me every week. 13 : So, was this just 14 coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein? 15 : Yeah. This had nothing to 16 do with him. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : This was probably what he 19 had to send up that week. 20 : Okay. 21 : It was the end of the week. 22 : Okay. 23 : So, that's what he sent. 24 So, that had nothing to do with him. 25 : So, this has nothing to EFTA00059132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 253 1 do with Epstein. 2 : No. 3 : All right. I'm not even 4 going to -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- you can keep that over 7 here, so we don't get that confused. 8 : Yeah. 9 : Alright. So, this one. 10 As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr. 11 . It says SHU rounds. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : What SHU rounds are we 14 looking at here? This is a new document here. 15 : Okay. This is on -. This 16 is eight, for the -- 17 : This is for executive 18 staff -- 19 : -- the week starting at 20 eight -- 21 : or-? 22 : -- this is starting for 8/4 23 rounds. So, this is, these are my rounds that 24 I'm doing. 25 : Now, is there some kind EFTA00059133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 of a requirement that you conduct rounds? 2 : Yeah. is 3 supposed to go up and go -. 4 : So, you are supposed to 5 conduct rounds in the SHU? 6 : Yeah. About once -- 7 : Or is this -- 8 a week. Like, you can go 9 up as many times, but, you know, is 10 supposed to be going. 11 : All right. 12 MR. HAYES: Now, that means you are 13 supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? 14 : Yeah. I go in the SHU. I 15 walk around and do rounds in every area of the 16 institution. So. 17 : And is everyone on here 18 supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have 19 never seen this round sheet until reviewing 20 your emails. 21 : No. This is every Bureau 22 institution has this. This is where you sign 23 into the Special Housing Unit. This is the 24 log. And this is showing that they made their 25 rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right EFTA00059134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 here, showing that they made their rounds. So, 2 at the end of the week, when they send me the 3 round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, 4 my question would be, okay, did they make 5 rounds, or did they forget to make rounds? 6 : Is this and this the same 7 thing? 8 : For the lieutenants, it 9 would be. 10 : Just the lieutenants? 11 And no one else? 12 : Yeah. No one else. This is 13 computer services. The duty officer has to go 14 up there. 15 : Now, so -- 16 : Right there. 17 : -- this shows that you 18 did two rounds. 19 : Right. 20 : And you are only required 21 to do one. Correct? 22 : Yeah. 23 : II programs. 24 : That, she did it on Friday. 25 : So, the fact that II EFTA00059135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 operations has nothing in there, is that 2 problematic? 3 : And here is the other thing 4 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 5 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial 6 and sign it. 7 : All right. 8 : So, what I would do is, I 9 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 10 the end of the week, what happened? How come 11 you didn't make rounds? 12 : So, all of these blank 13 spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 14 rounds in SHU? 15 : Not everybody is required. 16 They should have been up there, but they are 17 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 18 MR. HAYES: The correctional judgment 19 : -- food services. 20 MR. HAYES: -- would be they could go up 21 to that. 22 : But health services has to 23 make rounds. 24 : You're getting it. 25 : The PA's. EFTA00059136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 MR. HAYES: By the end of the day, man, 2 I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated 3 going to prison. 4 : Psychology. You know? 5 : So, which ones on here 6 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 7 : You have the unit team 8 that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants. 9 : Well, SIS, it doesn't 10 appear that they did any rounds. 11 : That's -. 12 : But I'm assuming they 13 certainly should have. Correct? 14 : SIS should have been up 15 there, to go around. So, and again, I would 16 look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody 17 might have been on leave, not on leave. 18 : And what are - so, when 19 these type of individuals, it looks like more 20 high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are 21 the highest level, what is a warden round look 22 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, 23 or -- 24 : So, what I -- 25 : -- is that what you do? EFTA00059137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 : -- what I do is, I walk 2 around and I go to every cell, and I talk to 3 the guy, got any issues, any problems? 4 They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have 5 some that say, hey, I'm up here for an 6 investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up 7 here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. 8 Fine. Some of it I can address right there, 9 some of it I can't. But I would typically walk 10 around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, 11 that is the reason why you are up there. Why 12 am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, 13 you go by it, it says -- 14 MR. HAYES: It's because you are a fucking 15 mass murderer, that's why you're up here. 16 : -- and, like, you know why 17 you are locked up. And then, they would say, 18 well, how come the investigation is taking so 19 long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, 20 if it was an OIG investigation. It would 21 depend. So, you know, I would usually tell 22 them, like, you know, it's an outside agency 23 handling. We are in contact with them. And 24 somebody will come see you. 25 : Okay. EFTA00059138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 : Some could be up for 2 administrative, like an incident report. 3 : So, you went through and 4 talked to everybody, but were you required to 5 do that, or is it just because you just were a 6 good employee? 7 : I mean, that's what you 8 should be doing. 9 : That's what you should 10 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 11 well, the post orders don't say that. 12 : Well, I don't have post 13 orders. 14 : Right. 15 : Yeah. So, I mean -- 16 : But you are But 17 something does say that you are required to do 18 it once a week? 19 : There's nothing in writing 20 to tell me you have to do it. But just like 21 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area 22 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 23 every employee going there on the off shifts. 24 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see 25 the staff, but it's -- EFTA00059139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 MR. HAYES: It's a surprise. In other 2 words, you are not telling them you are coming, 3 you are just going. 4 : Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm 5 making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to 6 staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more 7 the issue of them just work. I mean 8 : So, when you say there's 9 nothing in writing, saying that you should do 10 it, or is there something in writing saying 11 these people that didn't do it, that they 12 should have done it? 13 : No. And there could be 14 reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would 15 get the report and look into - like, there are 16 people that make the rounds, they come up to 17 SHU but they forget to sign in. 18 : Right. 19 : So, when I get the report, I 20 would, you know, talk to the captain, that this 21 the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such 22 and such make a round? Now, that • might have 23 been out that week, and I had this one covering 24 both. So, they came up with the II 25 : Now, is there any way to EFTA00059140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2- 1 1 determine, like, these people that, for 2 instance, visited on Friday, what time they 3 visited? Because this is the day that Reyes 4 was gone. So, it says the captain was in there 5 on Friday. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Should have he noticed 8 that Reyes wasn't there? 9 : Not necessarily. If he 10 didn't go down range. And he could have come 11 up, and remember, we have Ten South that's 12 connected. So, I don't know if he came up 13 there, you know, for an issue for Ten South. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : So, I don't know. And then, 16 him making his rounds, even if he's making his 17 rounds, you are going to have empty cells on 18 the range. 19 : Oh, you will? 20 : Yeah. Well, somebody -- 21 : Even if - 22 : -- somebody could be at 23 medical. Somebody could be on an attorney 24 visit. 25 : So, it wouldn't -- EFTA00059141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 1 : So -. 2 : -- it wouldn't caused a 3 red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like, 4 Epstein's cell empty? 5 : Well, if empty cell is 6 empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down 7 on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made 8 during the daytime. 9 : And in that note, would 10 they say, though, because it says 11 and it looks like was there, too -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- should have those two 14 people, if they actually did a round, say 15 Epstein is down there, but where is Reyes? 16 : I mean, they could have. 17 mean, but Reyes could have been in the shower. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : You know? I mean 20 : But it wouldn't be 21 something that would be normally asked? 22 : No. 23 : It was, like, oh -- 24 : Hmm-mm. 25 : -- Epstein, high-profile EFTA00059142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be - 2 3 : No. I mean -- 4 : No. 5 : -- you're just saying, okay, 6 Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe 7 his cellmate was in, in, in attorney visit, it 8 could have been on a shower day. He could have 9 been in rec. 10 : Okay. 11 : I mean -. 12 : So, you are more 13 concerned about the people that are there, as 14 opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like 15 that? To check in with them. 16 : That, I mean, you want to 17 see, making sure you are around, making rounds, 18 talking to everyone. So, I don't know what, 19 you know, what the thought process is, or, you 20 know, if somebody was in the shower or not. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : So. 23 : Sure. No. And I'm not 24 trying -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 1 : -- to get you to say 2 that. 3 MR. HAYES: How many days a week can you 4 take a shower when you're in -? 5 : The entire of three times. 6 Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and 7 Friday. 8 : And what about this one? 9 This one is from Norman Reed to you. Weekly 10 rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this 11 : The PCU. 12 : -- is this -? So, this 13 is the same thing? 14 : That's the PCU unit. Wit 15 sec unit. 16 : The wit sec unit. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : All right. So, this 19 might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this 20 is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). 21 Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you 22 mind just initialing and dating that? 23 MR. HAYES: Now, we are getting close to 24 the end. 25 : Hmm. EFTA00059144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 you had two 2 follow up questions before we move on. Why 3 don't you ask those? 4 : If, if the counts and the 5 rounds were done -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 as they were supposed to 8 be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU 9 C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that 10 Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was 11 actually not where he was supposed to be? In. 12 terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein 13 was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was 14 transferred, would they have caught onto the 15 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 16 : I don't understand what 17 : Let's say Reyes was 18 transferred, right? 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : If the counts and the rounds 21 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 22 count, the rounds in between, if they were 23 done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the 24 fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? 25 : But they already knew that. EFTA00059145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : If the word of mouth -. 2 : So, the claim is -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 made up that 5 stuff in the memo. And Davis says 6 never told me that. 7 : Right. 8 : That they say that's 9 bullshit, and he's lying. 10 : Right. 11 : The people that he said 12 were present say the same thing. 13 : Right. 14 : He didn't say that. 15 : Right. 16 : So, point being is, well, 17 if didn't pass that information on, if 18 they were actually conducting their rounds, 19 should they have noticed that he wasn't there? 20 : Yeah. If they knew that he 21 didn't If they knew, they knew that - 22 what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to 23 have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on 24 there, that I guess, and on the outside of the 25 cell, they would have his name and the other EFTA00059146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where 2 is the cellmate? We know he's not in the 3 attorney room. 4 MR. HAYES: Okay. 5 : So. 6 MR. HAYES: I got it. 7 : So, you know he's down in 8 the attorney room. So, you would have said, 9 okay, somebody's got to be in that cell. 10 MR. HAYES: Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a 11 way to fuck with the other guys. 12 : Meaning, if they actually did 13 the rounds and the counts like they were 14 supposed to, there was more than enough time 15 for them to turn around and assign another 16 cellmate, if needed. 17 : Or to say, of course, to 18 your point, where they are saying that nobody 19 ever told them, if you were making your rounds, 20 you would have saw that there was nobody in 21 that cell, and then ask you a question, where 22 he's at. 23 MR. HAYES: And the person whose job it is 24 to make sure they are doing their rounds is the 25 lieutenant or the captain? EFTA00059147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 : On the shift, it is the 2 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 3 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 4 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 5 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 6 then you find out people didn't make their 7 rounds. 8 : And I think what 9 question to you was, does this suggest to you 10 that they were not actually conducting their 11 rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 12 hours, and the notifications weren't made? 13 : It would appear, yeah, that 14 is the appearance. 15 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:18:07). 16 : Yeah. I mean. 17 : I just have one other 18 question. 19 MR. HAYES: When I do cross examinations, 20 and it says, it would appear that, yeah, 21 that's, yeah, somebody found. 22 : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 23 pre-filling round sheets? 24 : When he says pre-filling, 25 what he is saying is that, the beginning of EFTA00059148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 their shift, they are going in and they are 2 just writing, they are initialing and putting 3 in the time. At the very beginning, for the 4 rest of their shift. 5 : So, let me put it to you 6 this way. If I -- 7 : I saw you smile -- 8 : -- no, no. 9 -- when he asked that. 10 : Because if I become aware 11 and know that somebody is doing something like 12 that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going 13 to report that. So, if somebody came to me and 14 said, well, this person is pre-filling out 15 count slips, that would be something that 1 16 would say, okay, you know, I have to do a 17 referral, or if I don't have enough evidence 18 for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, 19 put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count 20 slips. 21 : So, if we have people 22 confessing, admitting that they are not only 23 pre-filling out their count slips, but also 24 doing it with their round sheets -- 25 : Right. EFTA00059149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 : -- what is your response 2 to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that? 3 : Well, that is a referral. I 4 would have to do a referral for you guys to 5 look into it. 6 : And then, if they are 7 actually pre-filling those out, does that also 8 suggest to you that they didn't do their counts 9 or their rounds? 10 : Well, I mean, if they're 11 telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's 12 obvious that they did not, they are not 13 counting. 14 : Right. 15 : Because if somebody is pre- 16 filling out a sheet, that means -- 17 MR. HAYES: They're not counting. 18 : -- they have no intention of 19 counting. 20 : And does that indicate to 21 you, as that they are falsely 22 certifying rounds and counts that they did not 23 conduct? 24 : If they come to you, and 25 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't EFTA00059150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 done our count slip, that is an admission of 2 misconduct. 3 : Right. But a false 4 certification, as well. Correct? 5 : Yeah. That is falsifying the 6 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 7 to you. But as far as -- 8 : Now, what if you -- 9 : -- me -. 10 : -- what if they are 11 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 12 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 13 watched a 20-year-old guy, 20-year guy do it. 14 That's how I learned. He didn't tell me to do 15 it. But I watched him do it. 16 : So -- 17 : So, I did that. 18 : I would -. So, I would 19 say to you, when did that person come in? 20 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 21 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 22 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 23 always, always tell people, you got to know 24 what's near and dear to you. 25 : And that is why I asked EFTA00059151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 you specifically -- 2 : Right. 3 : -- with Tova Noel. Are 4 you confident that you gave her that spiel? 5 : Talk to whoever was in her 6 class, and you talk to any, any new class that 7 came through, and they will tell you my spiel. 8 : Okay. 9 : Okay? You can go into our 10 annual training, when we have it, talk to 11 people, and they will tell you about my spiel. 12 : Do you say that always at 13 annual training? 14 : I cover everything. Because 15 I have -- 16 MR. HAYES: Yeah, but do you always say 17 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't 18 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 19 that. 20 : I do. I tell people about 21 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 22 to use of force. I tell staff all the time. 23 Use enough force necessary to control the 24 situation. 25 : But specifically about EFTA00059152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 1 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that 2 you tell them? 3 : So, what I tell them is, I 4 come in -- 5 : Because it sounds like it 6 is the same thing you tell them every time. 7 : -- right. So, what I 8 basically tell them, I said, you got some good 9 people that work in the institution. And then, 10 I had, you got some people with time, that just 11 want to do what they want to do. And I tell 12 them, don't follow them around. I said, you've 13 got one. If you are on probation coming in, 14 you need to be doing your job. I said, if 15 someone comes in, and they're not doing their 16 job, or they're telling you not to do 17 something, you make sure you let your 18 supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, ycu 19 can, you can talk to me. 20 : Okay. 21 : You know? So, the 22 expectation was clear. But with any other 23 agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - 24 there are people that come in and they become 25 followers. EFTA00059153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 : Now, we're going to move 2 on. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : We talked about the phone 5 call. 6 : Right. 7 : On August 9th. What is 8 your understanding of what transpired with 9 Epstein being provided a phone call on the 10 night of August 9th, 2019? 11 : So, from what I understand, 12 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 13 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 14 all that. So, from what I understand 15 afterwards, Epstein was never available for 16 that to be done. Because he went down to the 17 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 18 So, from what I understand, he was given an 19 unmonitored call. 20 : And what do you mean by 21 an "unmonitored call"? 22 : An unmonitored call is a 23 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone 24 system. 25 : Is it your -- EFTA00059154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 MR. HAYES: In other words, they don't 2 listen to what you say? 3 : Right. They don't. 4 : -- is it your 5 understanding that anyone physically monitored 6 the call, or did you -? 7 : From what I understand, the 8 individual was standing right there when he 9 made the call. 10 : All right. So, it is our 11 understanding that, "On August 9th, 2019, 12 Epstein made a request to 13 , to provide him with a phone 14 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 15 mother. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 checked Epstein's 18 pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set 19 up. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Therefore, took 22 Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and 23 plugged a phone into a legal line. 24 dialed the number. A man answered. He handed 25 the phone to Epstein. And then, left EFTA00059155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 for the day. stayed -. Oh, sorry. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : Then we found out that 4 the SHU C.O.s were around. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And did not 7 specifically instruct any one of them to 8 monitor their phone call. Instead, he called 9 the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make 10 sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein 11 after his allotted time. Had you heard that 12 before? 13 : I have -. What I heard was 14 he was there and did the monitoring. 15 : So, your understanding 16 was that, was there the entire time of 17 his call? 18 : That, at the entire time of 19 his call. 20 : So, a number of questions 21 off of that. The fact that dialed the 22 number that he gave him, and a man called. A 23 man answered. Who, he said he was calling his 24 mother. A man answered and he gave him the 25 phone. Is that problematic to you? EFTA00059156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 : I didn't hear that it was a 2 Who did I -? They said it was his 3 : So, that information might 4 have come out after. 5 : It came out after. I didn't 6 - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't 7 hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. 8 forgot who they said it was that called, but 9 then afterwards, they said, whoever they said 10 it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that 11 talk. 12 : I think it was his 13 mother. 14 : Yeah. I think it might -. 15 So, and that, that is what I heard. 16 MR. HAYES: His -- 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. HAYES: -- his mother died during the 19 time of this investigation. 20 : Hmm. 21 : She was previously deceased. 22 : Deceased. 23 MR. HAYES: So, wait, wait, wait, wait, 24 wait. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 MR. HAYES: So, he calls, looking for his 2 mother. 3 : He said he wanted to talk 4 to his mother. 5 MR. HAYES: But his mother was already 6 dead. 7 : Right. 8 : And the person who 9 answered the phone was a male. But he still 10 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 11 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 12 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 13 phone to Mr. Epstein. 14 : Well, remember, I am hearing 15 this, that it was a call that all along said 16 I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything 17 about a man answering the phone. 18 : No, no, no, no, no. I'm 19 providing this information as in, like, you are 20 , what is your take on this? Did he 21 do something wrong there? 22 : Well, as far as, you know, 23 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, 24 and the -- 25 : And a man answers the EFTA00059158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 phone. 2 : -- and then, a man answers 3 the phone. Yeah. It might have been some 4 questions he should have been asking. 5 : Should have he verified 6 who it was he was providing -? If he is giving 7 him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored 8 line, should have he verified who it was that 9 was on that other line? 10 : Right. If a male picked up 11 the phone. 12 MR. HAYES: Why do you know it's an 13 unmonitored line? 14 : Because the legal line 15 isn't recorded? 16 : Right. 17 MR. HAYES: So, that means unmonitored, 18 that it's -- 19 : Yeah. That you can't -. 20 MR. HAYES: -- it's not recorded. 21 : Right. 22 : Correct. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. 24 : On that note, were there 25 any lines that Mr. could have plugged EFTA00059159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 the phone into, that were monitored, versus if 2 they didn't have a pack and PIN? 3 : Not on the ranges, I 4 believe. I'm not sure. 5 : No? 6 : I don't think there was 7 anything on there. 8 : Because, yeah, we had 9 been told by someone that many, if not most, 10 BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and 11 PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are 12 lines that you could plug it into, that are 13 monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case 14 : No. 15 : -- in SHU? 16 : Not on the ranges. 17 : Okay. 18 : No. 19 : You said not on the ranges? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Where would it be? 22 : I'm not sure. I think 23 religious services might have a line. The 24 Chaplin. 25 : But not in the SHU? EFTA00059160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 : Not in the SHU. 2 : Okay. So, not only did 3 he do that, but he then left the SHU for the 4 day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there 5 and listen to the call. Correct? 6 : Right. 7 : Should have he put it on 8 speaker phone? 9 : Either listen to the call, 10 or if he had somebody else take over the call. 11 : Okay. 12 : You know, so, somebody 13 should have been monitoring the call. 14 : Right. 15 : Just to stand there and 16 listen. 17 : All right. Now, the fact 18 that, you know, obviously, dropped the 19 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted 20 to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a 21 male answered. 22 : Right. 23 : Second, he didn't stay to 24 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell 25 anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the EFTA00059161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the 2 fact that the other people are in the unit, 3 should have they then, at some point, also 4 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 5 let's go monitor it, or should have that been 6 something that 7 : Yeah, you couldn't -- 8 -- would have directed? 9 : -- you couldn't -. But 10 that's what I'm saying. I don't know the 11 conversation that took place between them. If 12 the call was made, and somebody was told to go 13 monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not 14 go over it? 15 : No. 16 : So, I don't -. 17 : So, Mr. told the 18 people -- 19 : Right. 20 -- he's on a phone call. 21 Get it back after - whenever it was - 15 22 minutes. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : They were giving him an 25 unmonitored call. EFTA00059162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. HAYES: The significance of this is 2 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, 3 they might have found out that he was very 4 depressed, or he was -? 5 : Well, there is Can 6 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 7 that what inmates are talking about on their 8 phone calls? 9 : I mean, just for the safety 10 and the security of the institution. 11 : Is it true that they 12 could potentially operate their businesses, 13 their illegal businesses, from there? 14 : You could. 15 : Or they call a hit on 16 someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of 17 different illegal activities, if we are not 18 monitoring those calls -- 19 : Right. That's -- 20 : -- that we wouldn't know 21 22 : -- why we monitor them. 23 MR. HAYES: All right. I have one more 24 story. 25 : Yeah. Right. EFTA00059163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: I'm a young lawyer. And I 2 know it's hard to believe I was ever young. 3 But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - 4 and I go to the interview, and he says, this 5 person is the main rat against, and I said, no, 6 he's not. I said, that person has got no - 7 fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say 8 nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, 9 oh, man, I better make a phone call. 10 : So, is it standard 11 practice to allow inmates to make personal 12 calls, as had done? 13 : You do I, sometimes if they 14 come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, 15 you could have a family member that has passed 16 away, and, you know, you allow them to make a 17 call under that circumstance. You know, I have 18 a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, 19 but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, 20 you make a call to another agency. And the 21 inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is 22 such and such. But you stay and you listen to 23 the conversation. 24 : Was there ever an 25 instance that you wouldn't listen to the EFTA00059164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 conversation? 2 : On an unmonitored line? 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : No. Somebody should be 5 standing there. 6 : All right. And what are 7 your thoughts on this specific matter from what 8 we just, from what I just told you? 9 : Like I said, if it's 10 problematic, if you said, if it's the way you 11 said it, yeah. 12 : And is it a serious 13 concern and safety violation? 14 : Well, yeah. I mean, it's a 15 breach. 16 : And why? 17 : Because we don't know what 18 the conversation was. 19 : Okay. You said -. Okay. 20 You answered that. These are just on this 21 note, there is just a couple of these. There 22 is a phone call. This one says it's from an 23 Do you know who that is? 24 : Yeah. He's the supervisory 25 attorney. EFTA00059165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 : So, he is an attorney? 2 Oh, okay. That's the same guy. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Supervisory staff 5 attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey 6 Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find 7 complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you 8 check to see if he has toilet paper, and that 9 his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned 10 regarding his complaint of having had two 11 calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, 12 there is no recording of them. His phone 13 account is set up, so we could get a call on 14 the ITS, when 30 days has -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- elapsed." 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : So, it looks like this 19 was actually discussed, and this again, was on 20 August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It 21 looks like this was the whole, to the whole 22 executive staff -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- team. Was this talked 25 about at all? EFTA00059166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 : It was sent out, and that's 2 when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said 3 he needs to get his stuff set up. Anything -- 4 : Okay. 5 that he needs, needs to 6 get it set up. So, I believe that was the day 7 when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney 8 room area, and said, get his stuff set up. 9 : Now, did you - the 10 captain, I believe, informed that he 11 would give him this call, just make sure it's 12 monitored. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Prior to that, did the 15 captain talk to you about this at all? 16 : About what? 17 : Well, affording this un, 18 you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but 19 just making sure it was monitored? 20 : No. 21 : No? 22 : Hmm-mm. 23 : But what you had said, 24 make sure his pack and PIN is set up? 25 : Yeah. I had to. Because EFTA00059167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 there was some other things to get set up, and 2 I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can 3 get his stuff going. If that's the date, if 4 remember, where everyone went up and talked to 5 him at the, where he was in the attorney room. 6 : Okay. Now, this is one 7 that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were 8 you able to print out that attachment? 9 : No. That's just our screen. 10 It's not what they would see. 11 : I was just hoping -. 12 Okay. So, this is one we got. It's something 13 from 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And who is that? 16 : That's the communication 17 guy. 18 : Correct. And he is in 19 charge of, like, the phones 20 : The phones. 21 : -- the cameras. 22 : Right. 23 : Correct? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : And he's to you, and it EFTA00059168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 says, "Phone record 104." 2 : Right. 3 : Sent on Saturday, August 4 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an 5 attachment here, titled 8.19.19.cap. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : That we are unable to 8 open. Do you know what that would have been? 9 It appears that it is related to the phone call 10 that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you 11 ever received a recording of that phone call? 12 : No. I didn't get any 13 recordings. 14 : Would it have -- 15 : Nuh-uh. 16 : -- been, maybe, then, the 17 number that he dialed? 18 : I think it might -. And it 19 might have been the number. I'm not sure. I 20 can't I don't recall. 21 : Okay. 22 : What that is. 23 : Do you remember asking 24 to provide you with any specific 25 information with regards to the call? EFTA00059169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 1 : We might have called him 2 about the line, and what was the number that 3 was called. 4 : Okay. 5 : And could they have pulled 6 it up. So, we might have asked him that. 7 : But it definitely wasn't 8 an actual recording on the phone? 9 : No. It was -- 10 : Okay. 11 I think it might have 12 been the number that, you know, I think wanting 13 to pass on to the FBI. 14 : Great. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : Do you mind just 17 initialing -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- and dating that? 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : I just didn't know what 22 that .cap was. 23 : Right. 24 : So, we didn't know, oh my 25 gosh, do we have a recording of this thing? EFTA00059170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 1 : The second one, too. 2 : Okay. 3 : All right. Now, we are 4 going to get into the actual incident. 5 MR. HAYES: Oh my God. Now, 6 (Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get 7 into. 8 : We don't have much more. 9 I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -- 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 11 : -- yeah. What is your 12 understanding of what occurred in Epstein's 13 cell on August 10th, 2019? 14 : I don't know. 15 : You don't know? 16 : I didn't go up there. 17 : Do you -. 18 : I never saw the cell. 19 : Do you believe if -. Do 20 you know if Epstein took his own life? 21 : That's what I've been told. 22 : Is that your 23 understanding of what happened? 24 : That was what was conveyed 25 to me. EFTA00059171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 302 1 : Do you have any 2 information, with regard to anyone else taking 3 Epstein's life? 4 : No. 5 : No. Have you heard that 6 Epstein's cell door was left opened on the 7 night of August 9th, 2019, and/or the morning 8 of August 10th, 2019? 9 : I didn't hear that. 10 : You have never heard 11 that? 12 : No. 13 : Have you heard that any 14 cellmate's in the SHU - any cells within the 15 SHU, any of their doors were left opened on the 16 night of August 9th, 2019 in the morning? 17 : I did not hear that. 18 : On August 9th. No? 19 : Hmm-mm. 20 : Do you know if anyone 21 harmed Epstein? 22 : No. I would have reported 23 it. 24 : All right. So, these are 25 the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons EFTA00059172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Health Services Clinical Encounter. 2 : Right. 3 : Did you get to review 4 this one at all? 5 : No. 6 : It talks about responding 7 to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency. 8 : I think I might have saw the 9 memorandums, but I don't I don't recall 10 seeing this. 11 : All right. So, let me 12 just read this, for the record -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- because it is a very 15 quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm 16 at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. 17 Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor 18 of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress 19 by correctional officers. The inmate was cold 20 with circumferential bruising around the neck 21 and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and 22 dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) 23 pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. 24 ED placed. No shock advised. CPR 25 continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment EFTA00059173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock 2 (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going 3 to read the rest of this. It just talks about 4 continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, 5 after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, 6 at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show 7 any signs of life? 8 : I never -. I wasn't up 9 there. 10 : Yeah. I just didn't know 11 if you had heard -- 12 : No. When I -- 13 : -- (Indiscernible 14 *03:36:34). 15 : -- when I got there, he was 16 already out. 17 : Because they said that, 18 you know, he was declared deceased at the 19 hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like, 20 from this person's report -- 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 : -- he was -- 23 MR. HAYES: Right. 24 : -- there was no signs of 25 life. EFTA00059174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 305 1 : And that's -- 2 : And I was just wondering, 3 had you heard anything from staff? Was there 4 ever any signs of life, that you are aware of, 5 while after - from the point he was found, on. 6 : Well, the impression that : 7 was given was, he was alive when he left the 8 institution. 9 : So, you believed he was 10 actually alive? 11 : That's what was conveyed. 12 : It was conveyed to you 13 that -? 14 : I think he was still alive, 15 if I remember right. I think he was -. They 16 did the CPR. And then, they got him out. 17 : And who -. So, according 18 to this, again, this person arrived at 6:35 -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- they're saying the 21 inmate was cold. You know, "Pupils fixed and 22 dilated. No palpus pulses." Meaning, I'm 23 assuming, that means no pulse. You know? 24 : So, you would probably have 25 to look at the response, the staff responding EFTA00059175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 1 memorandums on what -. 2 : So, up until this date, 3 did you think that he was alive when he had 4 left the institution? 5 : That's what I believed. 6 That was the impression I had. 7 MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. 8 If he was dead when they came, and somebody 9 found him, or even if he was close to death, 10 how long would it have been that he tried to 11 kill himself, and the time that they found him? 12 In other words, does that mean he tried to kill 13 himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he 14 tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You 15 understand the question I'm asking? 16 : Sure. I mean, that is 17 something that the medical examiner, you know, 18 makes that determination. 19 MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, 20 had done whatever he did, during the time that 21 there was supposed to be a round, and somebody 22 fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are 23 there, with a towel around your throat, that's 24 a hint that you are not exactly in the best of 25 moods. EFTA00059176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But the other thing is, you 3 know, I don't know, like you just said, the 4 medical examiner determines, you know, if he's 5 alive or -. 6 : Well, and that was going 7 to become my follow up. First of all, who - 8 this person. It says provider, Joseph Columbo, 9 RN. Is that someone who worked at -? 10 : He was one of the nurses 11 that worked. 12 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 13 : All right. And is it 14 your understanding, by saying provider, this is 15 the person who wrote this report? 16 : Yeah. Typically, who has 17 the encounter fills it, writes it in the 18 system. 19 : Okay. So, up until me 20 reading these out, you actually were under the 21 assumption that he was alive? 22 : Yeah. 23 : When he left. 24 : I thought he was alive. 25 Yeah. That was my assumption. EFTA00059177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 308 1 : Okay. Does that have 2 anything to do with the fact that the medical 3 examiner is the only one who can declare him 4 dead? 5 : It does, too. 6 : All right. And also -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : I have heard that 9 inmates don't die at prisons. 10 : Well, I mean, people say 11 that, but again, in reality, we - no one in the 12 prison can declare an inmate dead. 13 : Right, right, right. 14 : Even if -. 15 : But is that what you mean 16 by that statement, though? Did you -. I mean, 17 had you heard that he showed signs from life? 18 : From what -- 19 : Because we have heard 20 this -- 21 : -- from -- 22 : -- type of thing -- 23 yeah, from what I 24 : -- before. 25 hear, they were still EFTA00059178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 1 performing life-saving measures on him, even 2 when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming 3 in there. So, when you say to me that we are 4 performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming 5 that he is still alive. 6 : Right. Like, there is -- 7 : so -. 8 : -- always a chance you 9 could bring him back. 10 : That, you know -- 11 : Or you are hoping that 12 you are going to resuscitate him. But do you 13 know of any indication of -- 14 MR. HAYES: That he was successful -- 15 : -- signs of life? 16 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 17 : I didn't. Again, I'm going 18 off of, assuming that he was still alive 19 because they were still working on him. 20 : Okay. 21 : So, and if somebody start, 22 now, I've been in situations where the 23 paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on 24 them, and they say, you know what? There is 25 nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been EFTA00059179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 1 declared dead. 2 : Sure. 3 : But they still -. 4 MR. HAYES: Right. 5 : But from what I gather, they 6 were still working on them. 7 MR. HAYES: When you say nobody dies in 8 prison, you are being facetious? 9 : It's just one of those 10 things that -- 11 MR. HAYES: Yeah. It doesn't -. 12 : -- it happens at the -- 13 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 14 : -- at the hospital. 15 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : That's where they are 18 declared dead. 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. HAYES: Right. Okay. 22 : And that's not, you know, 23 necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are 24 like, sometimes -- 25 MR. HAYES: It's sort of a joke. EFTA00059180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- yeah. 2 MR. HAYES: To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). 3 : It's a joke. Because 4 sometimes, the bodies are still there, and -- 5 : Right. 6 and we know he is 7 deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical 8 examiner -- 9 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 10 : -- declares 11 MR. HAYES: At the hospital -- 12 : -- (Indiscernible 13 *03:40:57). 14 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57) 15 : Right. 16 MR. HAYES: The guy's got a big 17 (Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. HAYES: -- whatever they call them, 20 knives in his chest. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. HAYES: You know, you can tell he's 23 not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm 24 saying, they don't say he's dead on the scene. 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 1 : But just, I just want to 2 be clear, because with that statement, without 3 me getting a little more clarification, people 4 are going to read, wait a second, 5 said that he was still, he thought he was still 6 alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 7 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 8 to bring him back, or based upon the 9 conversation with someone - and my follow would 10 be that, who? - did you believe that he was 11 still alive? 12 : My assumption, from when I 13 was called, was they were working on him, and 14 he was - they were being taken to the hospital. 15 : Okay. 16 : That's -- 17 MR. HAYES: That was -- 18 : -- that's the term. 19 MR. HAYES: -- that -. Wait. You were 20 called at a certain time. 21 : Yeah. When the lieutenant 22 called. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, the lieutenant 24 says -. 25 : So, when you came back EFTA00059182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 1 and found out, did you ever find out that he 2 wasn't showing signs of life, when you came in 3 and talked to people? 4 : No. Because I - first of 5 all, when it happened, I wasn't going around 6 questioning people about -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- okay, what's going on 9 with this, because then, I knew that it was a 10 criminal case. But not criminal, but there was 11 going to be an investigation into it. And so, 12 I didn't want to give the appearance of 13 anything, that I was interfering with any 14 investigation. But when I did call, they said 15 they were working on him, and that, you know, 16 he was being transported to the outside 17 hospital. 18 : And who was it that 19 provided you with that information? 20 : The lieutenant. 21 22 MR. HAYES: So, you drew the inference 23 that that -- 24 : Uh-huh. 25 MR. HAYES: -- meant he was still alive? EFTA00059183 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 314 1 : Right. I assumed that, you 2 know, they were still working on him, and he 3 was still alive. 4 : And after that 5 conversation, though, and speaking with other 6 people, you never gathered that, oh, he was, 7 they were working on him, attempting to bring 8 him back, but he was not alive? 9 : I didn't -. 10 : From -. 11 : The assumption, my 12 assumption, was that he was deceased at the 13 hospital. 14 : Okay. 15 : Yeah. So. 16 : All right. Do you want 17 to follow up on that at all, anymore? 18 : No. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Okay. 21 : That kind of covers it. 22 MR. HAYES: Are we through now? 23 : No. 24 : No. 25 MR. HAYES: Oh, god. EFTA00059184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 315 1 : We only have, really, 2 very brief conversations left. All right. So, 3 this was an email sent from you, to 4 It just says, subject, "Names." 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : It says 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Tova Noel, and 9 Davis. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Who were -? Why were 12 those people listed? 13 : Because he wanted to know 14 who was working up there that night. 15 : Okay. 16 : Who was the staff working 17 there that night. 18 : So, why did you write 19 Davis versus, like, , or who else was 20 up there? Was Shack (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25) 21 still there? 22 : No. 23 : At least Bonhomme and 24 Davis. Was Bonhomme left off for any reason? 25 Because I think Bonhomme worked -- EFTA00059185 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 316 1 : I think this -- 2 : -- until midnight, and 3 Davis only worked until 10:00. 4 : No. For - and I don't - 5 correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know if he 6 wanted to know who was on the midnight shift. 7 And then, I included who was on Ten South. I'm 8 not sure. 9 : I think Davis was 10 the OIC of the shift previous. And then, just 11 Tova, 12 : Tova would have -- 13 : -- and Tova were the ones 14 from -- 15 : -- been two up there. 16 : -- midnight afterwards. 17 : Yeah. 18 : And then -. 19 : I think that Ten South was 20 Robert Adams. 21 : Yeah. So, I don't know, 22 remember it. But I know it had to do with the 23 question about who was working. 24 : Okay. 25 : So, I don't know the EFTA00059186 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 specifics and why it listed those three. 2 : And you don't know if, 3 like, because these were, who we considered the 4 subjects. 5 : No. I mean, these two would 6 have been obvious because they were working up 7 there on the midnight shift. But I don't know 8 why Davis got thrown in there. 9 : Okay. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Mind just initial and 12 dating that? Okay. And this one is an email 13 from to you, dated Sunday, 14 August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A 15 memorandum, Epstein." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : And it says that this was 18 dated August 10th, 2019. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : It's from 21 It says, subject is, "Security expectations 22 involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey." 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Are you familiar with 25 this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? EFTA00059187 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 : I did. 2 : Do you know what the 3 purpose of this was? 4 : Let me read it again. 5 "(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this 6 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 7 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 8 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. 9 explained that lieutenants were to conduct 10 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 11 (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I 12 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 13 *03:45:15)." Oh, no. I just was asking him 14 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 15 he provided? 16 : So, what did he provide 17 to, like, the SHU staff and the 18 Because -- 19 : Yeah. 20 : -- at least the last 21 little point on this first page -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- so, it says, "In 24 detailed conversations with the SHU 25 he was informed of my expectations regarding EFTA00059188 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 1 the supervision of inmate Epstein, 2 specifically, he was reminded on several 3 occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed 4 with a cellmate." 5 : Right. 6 : So, is this all, like, 7 the expectations surrounding 8 : The expectations. 9 : -- Epstein? 10 : Right. Mm-hmm. 11 : And when he says, "During 12 the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to 13 address management concerns with inmate 14 Epstein," do you know what he is talking about 15 there? With management concerns. 16 : The housing of them. And in 17 the Special Housing Unit. 18 : Okay. And do you know 19 if, according to this, it looks like he is 20 saying that he did perform informal training 21 sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in 22 fact, did that, or is it just based upon 23 : Just based upon -- 24 : -- what he wrote here? 25 : -- on what he sent out. EFTA00059189 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 320 1 : Okay. So, there is no 2 other information, aside from what he's telling 3 you? 4 : Right. Yeah. He told me 5 that. 6 : So, this one is - I want 7 to get your take on this matter - so, this is 8 back to , who was relieved 9 at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at 10 least until 9:30, and sent out that email, 11 detailing, you know, what day, and the 12 log, and the daily activity log. 13 So, sent her an email on 14 8/12/2019, stating, " , I am 15 reminding you to submit your supervisory 16 memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that 17 occurred on 8/10/2019. 18 Please have it complete and ready for 19 submission on 8/13/2019." She responded with 20 no, addressing nothing, just saying, just 21 responded simply, "In your email, you state, 22 quote, `I am reminding you.' End quote. I 23 haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding 24 the incident involving inmate Epstein or 25 anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. EFTA00059190 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 1 So, how is it possible for you to be reminding 2 me? Second, I had been properly relieved, 3 prior to the incident involving inmate 4 Epstein." What is your take on that email? 5 : First of all, any major 6 incident that takes place in the institution, 7 we have to do what is called a report of 8 incident. 9 : Sure. 10 : He is well within the scope 11 of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, 12 where is -. And I don't know if he was asking 13 her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the 14 shift . You know, when this incident 15 took place. So, technically, you should have 16 been doing the packet. So, he is probably 17 contacting her for that. 18 : Well, she was relieved at 19 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the 20 incident happened at 6:30. And again, she was 21 there at least until 9:30. And she did respond 22 to the SHU afterwards, helping with the 23 feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? 24 : Yes. 25 : Yes? EFTA00059191 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 322 1 : I mean, she said she 2 responded to the incident? 3 : She didn't respond to the 4 incident. She responded after the incident, to 5 help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with 6 the inmates. 7 : So, she -. Well -. 8 MR. HAYES: So, somebody told her that the 9 fucking guy hung himself, should she have 10 Right? 11 : Again, from what I gather, I 12 am under the impression, when the 13 relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you 14 know, and I can't speculate on what was there. 15 So, if we -. 16 : She said she stuck 17 around, working on matters that she needed to 18 catch up on. 19 : Okay. So -- 20 : But it sounds like 21 manipulating those numbers on the counts and 22 stuff. 23 : Okay. 24 : Right? 25 : So, let me ask you this EFTA00059192 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 323 1 question. I have, I have a medical emergency. 2 A suicide, right? That is an emergency 3 everyone in the institution has to respond to. 4 Why didn't you respond to it? 5 : So, you think that she 6 maybe came back after? 7 : It doesn't make sense to say 8 9 : Well, she never sent out 10 her required logs, though. 11 : Right. So, that, but -- 12 : So, you reviewed her 13 emails. And I would think that she would have 14 sent that out, if she had left, I would think 15 she would have sent that out before she left. 16 Right? As required. 17 : Right. So, did you leave 18 and come back? I mean, because if you are 19 saying that you were there, you would have been 20 one of the first responders up to the unit. 21 : Yeah, 22 : For the emergency. 23 : That's a really good 24 point. 25 : You know? EFTA00059193 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 MR. HAYES: In other words -- 2 : I wish we had -- 3 MR. HAYES: -- they're saying it sounds 4 fishy. 5 : I wish we had thought 6 of that. 7 : I mean, so, and then, if you 8 9 : And if she didn't, why? 10 : -- and if you didn't 11 respond, why didn't you respond? 12 : If she Is it a claim 13 at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't 14 technically working? 15 : If you are in the building, 16 you have to respond. 17 : Is that right? 18 : It's an emergency. 19 : Okay. 20 : I mean, as a 21 : Okay. 22 : I would want to respond, 23 and say -- 24 : And so, the fact that she 25 states that she was there, and she was working EFTA00059194 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 1 on her administrative responsibilities -- 2 : Right. 3 : -- so, is that a problem, 4 then, as ? What do you mean you are 5 working on the administrative? You should have 6 responded to that emergency. 7 : No. But - and I don't want 8 to speculate on when you are there - but I 9 just, there is just some questions 10 MR. HAYES: Wait, and I think 11 : -- they just don't -- 12 MR. HAYES: -- that is a yes or a no -- 13 : Right. 14 MR. HAYES: -- you know, question. 15 : Yeah. I mean, it's a 16 problem. If you are saying I am working on it, 17 okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I 18 need to, because once they had said, hey, I 19 have a suicide or something going on, which is 20 probably over, you know, a real medical 21 emergency, and you hear the transmission on the 22 radio, you are going to go up there. So then, 23 you say, oh, I went up there later, to help 24 with the feeding. Either way, you were in the 25 building. The captain is asking you, it EFTA00059195 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 1 happened on your shift, you are responsible for 2 conducting the report of incident. 3 : So, that answer is yes, 4 she should have written a memorandum? 5 : She should have written one. 6 I don't understand why she didn't, you know? 7 : And is that at all 8 reading how she responded - is that 9 insubordination at all, to you? 10 : Listen. I will put it this 11 way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how 12 they tolerate, but if you had given me a 13 memorandum like this, we would be having a 14 conversation. You know? 15 : Is that, at the very 16 least, inappropriate -- 17 : I think -- 18 : I think it's 19 inappropriate. I mean, that's the way -- 20 : I mean, I read it. 21 thought it was inappropriate. 22 : -- yeah. 23 : I just didn't know how 24 : I would have gone to have a 25 conversation, like, you know, first, are you EFTA00059196 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 327 1 all right? And then, secondly, what is this? 2 But yeah. 3 : Fair enough. 4 MR. HAYES: Okay, listen, one last 5 question. 6 : Sure. 7 MR. HAYES: Does that give the implication 8 that she is covering up for somebody, or she 9 just didn't do her job? 10 : I don't know. 11 : We don't know. That's 12 Had you heard anything about her covering up 13 for someone? Because -. 14 : I haven't heard anything, 15 but, you know -- 16 : Did you hear about 17 inmates saying that she was making statements 18 that she was going to cover for other people? 19 : Again, I don't want to make 20 any statements -- 21 : No, no, I'm asking you -- 22 : -- that are not factual. 23 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:51:56). 24 : -- did you ever hear -? 25 : No, I didn't hear anything. EFTA00059197 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 328 1 MR. HAYES: I would hate to -- 2 : You never heard it. 3 : Right. 4 MR. HAYES: -- I would hate to give my own 5 client a hard time. 6 : Right. 7 MR. HAYES: But, but it sounds to me like 8 she's got three hours where she knows this guy 9 is dead. 10 : Right. 11 MR. HAYES: You know? And she don't say 12 much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would 13 be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck 14 is going on? Excuse my language, by the way. 15 I have a filthy mouth. 16 : No. I mean, I understand 17 what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my 18 point of view is - and my concern - is 19 MR. HAYES: Yup. 20 : -- if you were there -- 21 MR. HAYES: Your concern is, you would 22 have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked 23 her a question first -- 24 : Right. 25 MR. HAYES: -- rather than jumping into, EFTA00059198 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 1 which is -- 2 : Because I was -- 3 MR. HAYES: -- which is what I did. 4 : -- under the impression, 5 because when called me, he was 6 the , and he had relieved 7 her. 8 : Right. 9 : She had gone home already. 10 : Well, he had certainly 11 relieved her, but -- 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- according to her, she 14 hadn't gone home. 15 : Yeah. 16 : Do you mind just 17 initialing and dating that? 18 : Yeah. 19 : Maybe you asked this 20 question. And I just want to clarify. Being 21 that she started this shift 10:00 p.m. the 22 night before, right? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Let's say this incident did 25 happen. We're not saying she did. We don't EFTA00059199 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 330 1 know. If she went in and she altered the 2 logs, for the previous shift, did 3 she do something wrong? 4 : Well, and again, we are 5 knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m. 6 So, that is still her shift. 7 : Yeah. But -- 8 : We've had this 9 conversation -- 10 : -- no, no, but -- 11 : -- before. 12 : -- let's just say, you know, 13 the fact that the inmate wasn't moved until 14 midnight, and then the clarification, and the 15 count, the count numbers being changed in 16 there. Now, so, the log count 17 numbers are accurate, except the count, the 18 actual count slips, were completely off. So, 19 somewhere along the way, someone altered those 20 numbers to -- 21 : Well -- 22 : -- correct it. 23 : -- the is 24 required to take a count on each shift. So -- 25 MR. HAYES: So, see, wait. EFTA00059200 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 331 1 : -- you got the -- 2 MR. HAYES: -- the is supposed 3 to take in a count. Right? 4 : Right. Just to take one 5 count -- 6 MR. HAYES: He's supposed to -- 7 on shift. 8 : An institutional count. 9 : Institutional count. 10 MR. HAYES: Okay. 11 : Not a physical, in the 12 SHU count. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, now -- 14 : But now, if you 15 (Indiscernible *03:53:53). 16 MR. HAYES: -- I got to shut up. 17 : Yeah. Go ahead. 18 MR. HAYES: He's supposed to take a count. 19 : Right. 20 MR. HAYES: Right? And he's supposed to 21 enter the count. 22 : Right. 23 MR. HAYES: Right? Okay. And there was a 24 count entered, right? And there is no question 25 that, at some point, the count was altered? EFTA00059201 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 332 1 : The count was wrong. 2 : The count was wrong. 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. Okay. 4 : Well, no 5 MR. HAYES: Yeah. (Indiscernible 6 *03:54:14) -- 7 : -- what he's saying is it 8 was altered. 9 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:54:15). 10 : I'm talking about the numbers 11 12 : So, if you recall 13 on the paperwork. 14 : -- on August 9th, 2019, 15 the log says, at midnight, there 16 was 72 in the SHU. The count slip says 73. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : And the iog 19 for the next day at midnight says there was 73. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : So, what Agent is 22 asking is, well, that obviously goes to show 23 that she went back and changed those numbers to 24 72, because -- 25 MR. HAYES: But what is her motive -- EFTA00059202 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 : -- that midnight -- 2 MR. HAYES: -- to do that? 3 : -- she says she was just 4 trying to make things accurate. 5 MR. HAYES: But what would be an ulterior 6 motive that would create the idea that she was 7 doing something wrong? 8 : It goes back to when you 9 asked -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- is there something to 12 do with a cover up? 13 : So, if - and granted, 14 mistakes are made in the log - but you also 15 annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, 16 okay, late entry. Because typically, if you 17 say the log is done already, when you go back 18 and make changes, you make changes for this 19 reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks 20 at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks 21 like you've been playing, you went back and 22 just changed the numbers. So, you can put in 23 there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain 24 what your change was, and what the mistake was. 25 MR. HAYES: So, really, with this -- EFTA00059203 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 334 1 : You know? 2 MR. HAYES: -- to show a malicious intent 3 in her part, there's got to be something that 4 influences her to protect one of the people 5 that were - no question - were fucking around. 6 Right? The two guys that were fucking around 7 ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one 8 of them is her friend, then she's got a 9 malicious motive to go try and cover for that 10 guy. Like, did $8,000 (Indiscernible 11 *03:55:58) police officer, he says, well, I 12 thought he drew a gun on me. 13 : Right. 14 MR. HAYES: And I shot him. 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. HAYES: Oh, okay. Nobody else saw 17 that. 18 : Yeah. 19 : But you are not aware of 20 her involvement at all, you said, or 21 : As far as what? 22 : -- covering up for them, 23 or involvement in Epstein's death? 24 : No. She wouldn't have had 25 that conversation with them. EFTA00059204 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 335 1 : And you weren't - until 2 now, it sounds like - even aware that she was 3 at the institution after 5:30 a.m.? 4 : I was told she left. 5 : Okay. 6 : Yeah. 7 : And again, who told you 8 that? 9 : The 10 Because he called me and he says, hey, I 11 relieved -- 12 : So, 13 14 : Sorry. 15 : Yeah. 16 : Okay. And did you have - 17 before we move on to the next subject - do you 18 have any more on that? 19 : No. 20 : So now, we are going to 21 talk about the cameras. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Were the SHU cameras 24 recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 25 : I didn't physically go check EFTA00059205 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to see if they were, were recording or not. 2 : Did you learn that they 3 were not recording? 4 : Yeah. We found out 5 afterwards, that they weren't recording. 6 MR. HAYES: Wait. Wait. We had this 7 conversation. 8 : Right. 9 MR. HAYES: The cameras don't work in a 10 lot of these institutions. Right? 11 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: All right. And that's because 13 they didn't spend the fucking money to make 14 sure the cameras work. 15 : Well, it's -- 16 MR. HAYES: And I got to stop saying 17 "fuck." 18 : -- that's the issue, too, 19 funding, and, you know, so, since that 20 incident, I guess there was some audits done by 21 the agency, and they realized that it was kind 22 of a system (Indiscernible *03:57:15). 23 MR. HAYES: But you see, the issue is, 24 should you have checked why weren't the cameras 25 working? EFTA00059206 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 337 1 : Well, that's my question 2 is, do you know why they were not working? 3 : I don't know the specific 4 language that was used, and what was wrong with 5 it, because I guess, after I left, they kind of 6 made a determination on what was why -. What 7 was the reason. I know we were going through 8 the process of auditing and fixing some 9 cameras. But those specific SHU cameras, I 10 wasn't aware of the extent. 11 : Okay. Let's just really 12 quickly review -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- the SHU camera 15 documentation. Were you ever provided any 16 documents of a camera that actually was working 17 in the SHU? 18 : You mean, the day of the 19 Epstein thing? 20 : Right, right. At ar, 21 time. 22 : I don't recall. 23 : So, were you provided 24 with this? This is right outside of 25 : This was a -- EFTA00059207 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 338 1 : -- Ten South. 2 : -- that says camera angle 3 out of Ten South. 4 : Right. Were you ever 5 provided with that, as far as -- 6 : It looks -- 7 : I think from -- 8 : -- it looks familiar, but 9 don't -- 10 : -- from 11 he might have. 12 : Okay. But you don't 13 remember specifically? 14 : Yeah. I don't specific. 15 : Okay. And then, just 16 while we are here, I guess, what are these 17 doors right to the right of this picture? 18 : This, this door goes into 19 Ten South. 20 : Okay. 21 : And then, this one, I think 22 is a utility room door. I'm not sure. 23 : Okay. So, the door that 24 says "46" goes into Ten South? 25 : That looks like the Ten EFTA00059208 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 339 1 South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone 2 is -. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like 3 Ten South. 4 : And what are we looking 5 at down here? 6 : So, this is the, right here 7 is the officer's station area. 8 : And do you - based upon 9 that - do you know what tier that would be 10 right there? 11 : Oh, man. You got 12 (Indiscernible *03:59:02) stopped. Let me see. 13 Is that G and H tier, I think, if I remember. 14 : And what would be right 15 to the right of the officer's station? 16 : Oh. Wait. G. H. I. J. 17 A. I don't remember if that was I and J. That 18 19 : Would this be L tier up 20 here? 21 : Yeah. L and M tier. That's 22 what -. 23 : So, right up, right to 24 the right of the officer's station, looking at 25 this picture EFTA00059209 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Right. 2 : -- would be L. And is 3 that where Epstein was housed? 4 : I believe he was on the L 5 tier. 6 : Okay. Do you mind just 7 initialing and dating that? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, here is a map that we 10 were previously provided. Does this look like, 11 then -? So, this is where we were that this 12 camera angle is focusing down here on the 13 officer's station. This is L tier. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : On the second level. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : And this is where Epstein 18 would have been housed. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Does that look right? 21 : That looks right. 22 : Okay. Is this L tier 23 here? 24 : That's L tier. 25 : Does this look like what EFTA00059210 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 341 1 would have been Epstein's door? I know you 2 can't really see because of the police 3 crossings -- 4 : Yeah. 5 -- on it. 6 : I noticed it. The crime 7 scene tape. 8 : Okay. Do you have any 9 reason to believe that that wouldn't be 10 Epstein's door? 11 : What do you mean? 12 : As far as, I know we 13 can't see the number 14 : Yeah. I don't know the 15 number, but I'm taking your word for it, that 16 that is. 17 : Okay. Now, if you see, 18 this is L tier range. And at the very end, you 19 see this camera. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Should that camera have 22 been recording? 23 : Yes. 24 : Okay. And is that a 25 camera that I'm actually looking at right EFTA00059211 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there? 2 : That is a camera. 3 MR. HAYES: Was that camera recording? 4 : Sir, do you know if the 5 camera was recording? 6 : I didn't see. After I left, 7 I guess they said there were camera issues, but 8 I don't know what, I wasn't provided 9 information on what specific cameras were 10 working or not. 11 : So, they didn't tell you 12 if they were working or not? 13 : Well, remember, I was 14 removed. 15 : I just didn't know if you 16 found out on the 10th or 11th. 17 : No. I was removed on the, 18 you know, they said there were some camera 19 issues, and then, what they were doing, they 20 had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and 21 I guess they were working to see what was 22 working and what wasn't working? 23 : Can you initial and date 24 that? 25 : I'm not going to get into EFTA00059212 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 343 1 this since he wasn't aware that they weren't 2 recording. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. HAYES: Boy, I'm impressed by your 5 thoroughness, I'll tell you that much. 6 : That's why they put me on 7 it. I'm -- 8 : Yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: You're very thorough? 10 : -- yes. 11 MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a 12 good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good 13 trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not 14 supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to 15 put an idea in the jury's head, right? Where 16 you can see they're invulnerable, stay on that 17 fucking idea, because if you are going to be 18 thorough, you have to bring out something that 19 you don't want to bring out. You know, so you 20 to speak to the things, but you know you got 21 them. 22 : Yeah. 23 : So, this is an email that 24 was received. Who's 25 : He's the facilities manager. EFTA00059213 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 344 1 : Okay. So, is this what I 2 wanted to show you? Hold on. Now, did you 3 print out the one that I sent you this morning? 4 : Is that -. That should be 5 the last thing on the -. 6 : Okay. I'm not going to 7 get into those. So, you weren't aware that the 8 cameras were not - or you are not aware if the 9 cameras were or were not recording -- 10 : We had camera -- 11 : -- in the SHU? 12 : -- no. We had camera issues 13 throughout the institution. 14 : Okay. 15 : So, I don't know which 16 specific one, because we had Mr. workin: 17 on a project, to get some money for it. 18 : Okay. 19 : But when it came to that 20 specific night, I didn't know if they were 21 working or not. 22 : Were you ever told that, 23 either on August 8th or August 9th, that the 24 cameras were not recording in the SHU? 25 : I heard - yes - I was told EFTA00059214 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 345 1 that there were some issues with the cameras 2 : On either the 8th or the 3 9th, prior to Epstein? 4 : -- no. I'm talking about 5 afterwards -- 6 : Yeah, yeah, no -- 7 : -- when it happened. 8 : I'm saying -. So -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- August 10th is the day 11 he is found. 12 : Right. 13 : On August 9th or August 14 8th, even, leading up to Epstein being found, 15 were you ever informed that cameras were not 16 recording? 17 : No. I wasn't told about 18 cameras. 19 : All right. So, based on 20 our investigation, we learned that MCC, III 21 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : -- and that II 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- became aware on August EFTA00059215 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 346 1 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC 2 cameras were not recording. They contacted 3 comtech , and may have also 4 notified . Did you ever 5 hear anything about that? 6 : I knew prior that there was 7 some cameras in the institution that needed to 8 be fixed, but not specifically the SHU, no. 9 : Okay. 10 : Yeah. 11 : And would have that been 12 based upon what they found? The II and 13 14 : No. Because we had had some 15 issues with cameras, and we were trying to seek 16 funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, 17 what was working and what to get fixed. But 18 specifically, in SHU, no. 19 : All right. So, only 20 because, you said that you were trying to get 21 funding. Did you know that there were already 22 cameras at the institution, and that's what 23 they were able to replace when the FBI took the 24 cameras on the 10th, they were able to 25 immediately replace them with the cameras that EFTA00059216 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 were onsite? 2 : So, cameras all -. 3 Institutions always have, like, backup cameras 4 to fix what is there. But I was talking about 5 funding to replace the whole system. 6 : So, this was from fiscal 7 year 2018 -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- back in September. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : This is a memorandum for you, from a 13 14 : Right. 15 : And these are all the 16 different documents that go with it, regarding 17 a new camera system that was purchased. 18 : Right. 19 : It was, it looks like 20 there was $800,000. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : For this total. These 23 are all the documents that - here you go - this 24 is an approval of your September 11th, 2018 25 request. So, this is a memorandum for -- EFTA00059217 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 348 1 : Right. 2 from, it 3 looks like a (Phonetic Sp. 4 *04:05:31). 5 : Mm-hmm. : The 7 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : It says, request to 10 exceed the spending limit of $50,000 on a work 11 request number 8158, replace camera system at 12 MCC New York. This work request is to replace 13 the current degraded camera system. The total 14 cost of this work is not to exceed $800,000." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : Then, at the bottom, it 17 says, "If you have any questions, please call 18 me or have your staff contact," and how do you 19 say that name? Do you know? 20 (Phonetic Sp. *04:05:57)? 21 -• 22 (Phonetic Sp. *04:06:00). 24 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059218 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 349 1 : And it says, "At the 2 phone number." And then, here are the, you 3 know, the work orders for that. So, we have 4 spoken with SigNet, who was the camera provider 5 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- they said that on or 8 around October or November of 2018, they were 9 delivered. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : And then, talking with 12 the (Indiscernible 13 *04:06:22) -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 he said 16 that they started working on the infrastructure 17 of the camera project on or around March 2019. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : To get everything ready 20 for the new camera system that was onsite to be 21 installed, and said that -. 22 : They had to run wires. But 23 the old system was there. So, they had to run 24 wires. And they had to get a contract done. 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059219 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 350 1 : In order, because you needed 2 the comtechs, and I forget the wording that 3 they used, is to run the cables, to get the new 4 camera system in. So. 5 : And do you know how long 6 that typically takes to run the new wires and 7 all that? 8 : You would have to have the 9 staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't 10 have the staffing. 11 : So, were there two people 12 TDY'd, though, in order to do that? 13 : They started TDY'ing people 14 in, to come in. 15 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Can the staff 16 run the new wires, or you have to get an 17 electrician to run the wires? 18 : No. We have staff that are 19 qualified to do it, but then, some of them were 20 new and really didn't know how to do it. So 21 MR. HAYES: Okay. 22 you know, it was -. 23 : So, according to 24 it says, "The camera system was 25 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it EFTA00059220 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 2 February 2019, we only had one communication 3 technician -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- therefore, after 6 talking to the regional office, they started a 7 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 8 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 9 for the camera system, and all other 10 infrastructure throughout the institution. 11 MR. HAYES: St. Patrick's Day. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Below is the email sent 14 to all the institution from Bond 15 (Phonetic Sp. *04:07:49), the northeast 16 regional -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- facilities 19 administrator." But point being, it looks like 20 that project had started. Correct? 21 : It has started, but -- 22 : And I only say that 23 because I wanted to make sure you weren't 24 confused, because you were saying we were 25 looking for funding. EFTA00059221 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 352 1 : No. No. I misspoke. What 2 I'm saying is, I meant that the project 3 started, but the cameras hadn't been replaced. 4 Because they were still running wires for the, 5 to get the new system started. 6 : Okay. 7 : So, that unit still had the 8 old cameras. 9 : Right. But then, the 10 camera system was actually onsite, and they 11 were working on it? 12 : Well, yeah, but they weren't 13 - you didn't have enough staff to install, to, 14 you know, to rewire the whole place, because we 15 had, we wanted to put one, some on the ranges 16 that never had cameras. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : So, it was a tedious 19 project. 20 : I see. 21 : That required us to TDY 22 staff from other institutions. And then, you 23 know -. 24 : Yeah. And were you kept 25 apprise of where they were on that? On the EFTA00059222 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 camera project. 2 : I would acquire about it, 3 like, where we were with it. But we were to 4 the point where we were bringing people in from 5 other institutions. To get it done. 6 : Okay. And do you know 7 when the camera system was scheduled to 8 actually be installed, or was it ever 9 scheduled? 10 : From - and if I remember 11 right - it was a matter of before you even 12 installed it, you had to run the wiring for it. 13 : Right. And that's what - 14 15 : (Indiscernible *04:09:13). 16 : I think was -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- what they were saying 19 in March of 2019. 20 : But that had -- 21 : That 22 been completed. Because 23 you had to TDY people there. And to get it 24 done. 25 : And they never provided EFTA00059223 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 354 1 you with an update as far as, like, when it 2 would actually be completed? 3 : It was still ongoing. 4 : Okay. 5 : Now -- 6 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:09:27). 7 : -- but after I left, they 8 got people in there and completed it. 9 : Yeah. Yeah. Because I 10 think, I think that whole week, they were able 11 to complete the whole thing. Correct? 12 : I don't know when. 13 : You don't know? 14 : You know, because they had 15 people come in from different institutions. 16 : Now, is that, did they 17 ever, did the facilities manager, Captain 18 Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the 19 system was, and that it kept on shutting down, 20 and stopping, you know, cameras weren't 21 recording? 22 : I mean, we would have 23 incidents where, you know, something would 24 happen, and we tried to go back and find the 25 tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break EFTA00059224 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 1 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 2 have issues like that before. But it was the 3 age of the cameras. The -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- you know, we had 6 infrastructure issues. So. 7 : Because, yeah, the 8 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 9 been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person, 10 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 11 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 12 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 13 continual problem. 14 : So, here is what it is. We 15 don't have money readily available at an 16 institution to fix it. That money comes from 17 what we call buildings and funds. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Which is funded by Congress. 20 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 21 region about what the regional budget is, but 22 other institutions have issues going on. 23 : But being that -- 24 : Yeah. 25 : -- we have all these EFTA00059225 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 356 1 cameras already onsite, and they had already 2 done the wiring for, you know, at least six 3 months prior to this -- 4 : Well, not all the wiring -- 5 : -- they -. 6 : -- was done. 7 MR. HAYES: Yeah. He just, he didn't say 8 the wiring was done. 9 : Yeah. 10 : No, no, no. I'm just 11 saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a 12 feel for what was the plan here, and who was 13 responsible. 14 : Well, the plan was to get 15 the manpower to get it installed, but at the 16 time, we only had one person. Which was 17 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, one person can't 20 : Well, and the TDY staff. 21 : -- right, but even the TDY 22 staff came, they did help. You know, but then, 23 we also had other TDY staff that were coming in 24 for, because of our staffing issues. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059226 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : But -. 2 : Well, that's what 3 told us. That the TDY staff that was assigned 4 for him sometimes were getting put on the 5 custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate 6 or not? 7 : We might have had to do it a 8 time or two because we wanted to staff. 9 : Okay. 10 : Yeah. Yeah. 11 : And whose responsibility 12 were the cameras? To make sure that those 13 things were going to be operational and working 14 properly. 15 : Well, it's not a matter of 16 who was responsible. It's, like, working on 17 getting it installed. 18 : Okay. 19 : So, there was no deadline as 20 far as, you know, okay, when they had to be up. 21 You know, they just had to be installed. 22 : Okay. Because we were 23 told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is 24 that accurate? 25 : No. No. It's not. EFTA00059227 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 358 1 MR. HAYES: Yeah. That -- 2 : It's not. 3 MR. HAYES: -- that can't be true. 4 Captains don't know how to install it. 5 : Yeah. He doesn't -- 6 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:12:11). 7 : No, no, no. Not to 8 install them. But to make sure that they are 9 operational, and get the right people to 10 actually get it done. 11 : Well, I -- 12 MR. HAYES: That can't be right, either. 13 : -- well, I -- 14 MR. HAYES: Because how the fuck would you 15 know what -- 16 : -- right. I -- 17 : Well, because -- 18 MR. HAYES: -- who the right people is. 19 : -- because what we were 20 told is that this was constantly happening, 21 whereas the cameras would stop working. And 22 then, nothing would be recorded. 23 : So -. 24 : The only way you find out 25 that that is happening is to physically check EFTA00059228 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 359 1 the DVR recording to see if there has a light 2 on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and 3 you are unable to. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Because everything is 6 still live monitored feed, showing, so you 7 can't tell just by looking at the cameras. 8 It's only when you try to rewind them, that you 9 can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. 10 : Right. But that, it wasn't 11 just as simple as that. I mean, there were 12 technical aspects of it that you had to check 13 to see if the cameras are working or not. 14 : Oh. Absolutely. 15 : Right. And the captain 16 basically looking to see if, okay, is the 17 screen up? And then, is it recording? But 18 there was some instances where the hard drives 19 weren't working, and you don't know that until 20 you get deep into it, into the system. So, I 21 wouldn't, you know -- 22 : That's -- 23 : -- put that -. 24 : -- that's what he just 25 stated. EFTA00059229 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 360 1 : Yeah. 2 : Like, the fact that the only 3 way we would know if the hard drives were not 4 working is by going in 5 : Right. 6 : -- to check the video. And 7 the video, there is no videos that they can 8 pull back. 9 : Right. 10 : That's when they know the 11 hard drives stopped recording. 12 : Stopped recording. And 13 then, and look at them. But then, this is, you 14 know, there was other technical aspects of it 15 that, you know -- 16 MR. HAYES: I can't imagine that 17 : -- yeah -- 18 MR. HAYES: -- the captain would know. 19 sure as hell wouldn't. 20 right. 21 : So, I guess, knowing, 22 though, that this was, like, a reoccurring 23 problem, and the fact that, well, what we 24 didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the 25 cameras actually stopped recording all the back EFTA00059230 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35! 1 in July, and for half of the institution. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : Who should have made sure 4 that that camera system was replaced, and that 5 we had an operational camera system in there? 6 : Well, the centralized area, 7 and I don't know where the break down was. So, 8 if it's a centralized area, then it would be, 9 you know, within our facility department has 10 access to -- 11 : Well, the camera -- 12 : -- the comm -- 13 : -- you are asking where 14 the cameras are? 15 : -- no, the comm room. 16 : Yeah. The comm room. 17 Where these recorders were, were all in the SIS 18 secured area. 19 : Right. The actual cameras. 20 But where - if you go out - where -? And I 21 don't know the word, what's the word? Where 22 your centralized main area is for the whole 23 system. Yeah. That SIS areas has the cameras. 24 But that's fine. 25 : Not the control room. EFTA00059231 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 362 1 But it's back around where, it's a locked door 2 within the SIS locked room, where the actual 3 DVR recording and rack is, and everything. 4 : Right. 5 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 6 7 : But -- 8 : -- is that what you are 9 talking about? 10 : -- that, but there is also 11 another, should be another area in the 12 institution, just for the communications. 13 Where everything comes into. So, I don't know 14 if it was back there or whatever, but our 15 facilities department, you know, their 16 communication guys check that, too, if there is 17 something intricate with it. 18 : Now, so, was either III 19 , or , how do you pronounce his 20 name? 21 -: 22 : Was , or 23 , were either of them expressing the need 24 to you at all, to, hey, we need to get these 25 things fixed? EFTA00059232 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 363 1 : I mean, the request had been 2 sent up. 3 : Yeah, yeah. No. 4 : So, yeah. 5 : And these were all 6 onsite. 7 : Right. So, yeah. I mean, 8 we were going through -- 9 : And again -- 10 : -- the process of getting 11 the system up and running. 12 : But there was no set 13 schedule for when it was actually going to be 14 completed? 15 : No. Because we had to TDY 16 people. Sometimes we got them in, sometimes we 17 couldn't get them. And then, towards the end, 18 you know, boil down to money, with getting 19 people in to come fix them. 20 : And when people are TDY, 21 do you - when you say boil down to money - does 22 that come out of -- 23 : It comes out of our -- 24 : -- MCC's pocket? 25 : -- it comes out of our EFTA00059233 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 364 1 budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out 2 of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top 3 of that, we were for TDY to come to our 4 correctional post, because we were so short. 5 : All right. So, what 6 would you say is the main reason, then, that 7 the cameras were onsite, but not installed? 8 Lack of manpower and funding? 9 : Well, manpower to get it in. 10 And then, it kind of boiled down to funding. 11 You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done. 12 MR. HAYES: But do you have money, you can 13 really keep the TDY people. You don't have 14 money -- 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. HAYES: -- you can't keep them. You 17 know? 18 : But again, there is no, 19 there was no actual set schedule of it will be 20 operational by the end of this calendar year -- 21 : No. 22 : -- or anything like that? 23 : No. 24 : That wasn't discussed? 25 : That wasn't discussed. We EFTA00059234 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 365 1 were trying, you know, doing the best we can 2 with the hand we were dealt. 3 : Okay. And Monday morning 4 quarterbacking that. Should it have been 5 discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras 6 be installed? 7 : Would -? I don't understand 8 the question. 9 : Well, being that there 10 is, it seems that there was potentially around 11 two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no 12 cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten 13 South. 14 : Right. 15 : That were recording. 16 : But that wasn't known -- 17 : But it was, according to 18 the, you know, according to the facilities, as 19 well as the comtech, they said it was very well 20 known that this continually happened, and that 21 the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard 22 drives because they kept on crapping out and 23 not recording. 24 : I mean, it is an antiquated 25 system. EFTA00059235 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 366 1 : Right, right, right. 2 : So, when you go down, yeah, 3 obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew 4 until after the fact that you, you know, that 5 you had a system that was out for two weeks. 6 You know, I mean, you go to any other, any 7 institution, the cameras go down. 8 : Sure, sure. 9 : And when the system breaks, 10 somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as 11 far as getting the new system up, we were 12 working on it. 13 : Okay. You want to follow 14 up with any of that? 15 : You mentioned no one knew. 16 But the problem was, according to the comtech, 17 the system failed, the motherboard had to be 18 replaced on the 29th -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- they had a failure. 21 : Right. 22 : And then, of course, no one 23 checked it until the 8th. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : August 8th. When the II and EFTA00059236 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 367 1 the went in and they tried to 2 3 : Right. 4 : -- review video. Now, being 5 that they identified the system wasn't working 6 that day -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- how soon should it have 9 been fixed? 10 : What do you mean? When they 11 -? 12 : On the 8th. 13 : Right. 14 : This is two days before the, 15 that, that Epstein was found. If they 16 identified on the 8th that, hey, listen, the 17 camera is not working. It's technically not 18 recording. How much of a priority is it to 19 make sure that those cameras are up and running 20 immediately? 21 : It's a priority. So, what 22 happens is, and we have run into this before, 23 the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily 24 available. So, you have to go somewhere and 25 call for the parts, and depending on where it EFTA00059237 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 368 1 is at, it could be in California, or whatever. 2 So, you got to see how long it takes to get 3 that part. 4 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 5 : Over to repair. 6 MR. HAYES: And the key part for my 7 heating system -- 8 : Yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: -- is in fucking Belarus. 10 : Right. 11 : My understanding is they, it 12 was the hard drive that they needed. Right? 13 And the hard drive was sitting with the 14 computer services. 15 : Yeah. On the 8th. The. ) 16 weren't able to get it. 17 : I don't know. 18 : Yeah. 19 : And on the 9th, they got 20 it. But then, he claims that he wasn't able to 21 gain access to the room because it was an SIS 22 shop, and he needed to go until later in the 23 day, and they were gone. 24 : I mean 25 : And on the 10th -. EFTA00059238 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 369 1 we have an emergency keys 2 to get into any area of the institution. So, 3 if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS 4 office -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- you got the captain, you 7 know, we got the techs that work in there. 8 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 9 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 10 can get that box open. 11 : So, he said that the only 12 way to be able to get into it is if he broke 13 the glass -- 14 : He can break the glass. 15 : mm-hmm. It's okay 16 that he would have done that? And then, should 17 have he? 18 : Yeah. If you couldn't 19 reach, you could just -. Well, he should have 20 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 21 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 22 : Do you think it's at all 23 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 24 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 25 working on it, or at least, I guess he was EFTA00059239 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 1 working on getting the parts, but then got the 2 parts again on the, some time on the 9th, 3 claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't 4 get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was 5 going to work on it on the 10th, on that 6 Saturday. 7 : So, the question -- 8 : -- and what is your -? 9 : -- the question I would pose 10 to you is, did he notify anybody that he 11 couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt 12 to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, 13 I need to get into that office to get a part to 14 do it, because if he had told the captain that, 15 the captain would have got that office open for 16 him. 17 : Yeah. I agree with you. 18 It's a he says that the MCC was a different 19 So, at any other BOP institution, in the 20 country, that would have happened with, his 21 experience taught him that, at the MCC, 22 basically it could wait until tomorrow. 23 MR. HAYES: They wait until tomorrow. 24 : So, so that's his opinion. 25 But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who EFTA00059240 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 371 1 did he bring up the issue to? Because my thing 2 is, if you know it's an emergency, and it's a 3 situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out. 4 : And is it, would that be 5 classified as an emergency? 6 : If the cameras are down, 7 yeah. 8 : That is an emergency. So 9 10 : Let's get them back. 11 : -- he should have 12 absolutely gotten into that room -- 13 : He should have gotten -- 14 one way or another? 15 in there, and he knows he 16 could have gotten into the room, because you 17 can, we can break - if he said that stuff was 18 sitting in there, whatever room he said it in 19 there, guess what? You can break glass. You 20 can break glass after hours, if you need to, 21 and it's an emergency to get in, into an area. 22 : So, his claim is that, he 23 has rebuilt these things so many times. And 24 every knew that these cameras needed to be 25 reinstalled, and he had been saying that they EFTA00059241 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 372 1 needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being 2 looked at as the fall guy. 3 MR. HAYES: You know, it sounds like he 4 could, you know -. 5 : I don't -. This is not an 6 issue of being the fall guy. 7 : Right. 8 : So, let's take every issue 9 we just talked about. We talked about the 10 camera project that we were working on. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : We were getting the people 13 in there to working. So now, let's talk about 14 the specific issue that you were talking about. 15 He did not notify anybody to get into that 16 room, to get to that part. That part was to 17 fix the current system. It had nothing to do 18 with the new system coming in. This is, he is 19 saying that this was a part that we needed to 20 fix, get put in, to deal with the current 21 system. 22 : Now, what about the fact 23 that is saying both she and 24 the II knew that the cameras were down on 25 August 8th. They told to fix them. And EFTA00059242 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 373 1 they also notified so that 2 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 3 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 4 being down on the 8th. 5 : Right. 6 : So, at that point, what 7 are the responsibility of the captain and the 8 II? 9 : So, what the captain does is 10 he notifies facilities where works for, 11 and says, hey, the cameras are broken, you need 12 to fix them. 13 : So, should the captain 14 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 15 were fixed? 16 : Well, I don't know what 17 conversation he had with facilities to say we 18 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 19 not. 20 MR. HAYES: Well, do you know 21 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 22 somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it 23 on the 9th? 24 : Well, the 9th is a 25 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that EFTA00059243 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 374 1 he was told, informed, learned. 2 : Right. 3 : So, we have all Friday on 4 the 9th to make sure it's done. 5 : Right. 6 : On the 10th, 7 unfortunately, is when -- 8 : But -- 9 : -- we know the severity 10 of the issue. 11 : -- but that's my point. You 12 knew that, okay, you were made aware that the 13 cameras needed to be fixed. Okay. So, your 14 answers, what you are saying is, I couldn't get 15 into a certain area, so -- 16 : Well, that's what 17 is saying. Yeah. 18 : -- but that, okay, but -- 19 : But my question is, 20 should the II or the captain have followed up 21 with that, to make sure that it was actually 22 being done. 23 : And to them, I don't, you 24 know, I don't want to make the assumption 25 because I don't know. There could have been EFTA00059244 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 375 1 some follow up. I don't want to speak on it, 2 but you know, if he had told him something on 3 the 8th, you know, I don't know the 4 conversations that were taking place between 5 them. Like, where is that, and what is he 6 saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he 7 is saying, and it makes no sense. 8 : Yeah. No. I would just 9 think that, you know, being a captain or a II 10 would be -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- whoa. The cameras are 13 down in the institution? 14 : Right. 15 : Well, let's make sure 16 that those things are back up -- 17 : So, and -- 18 : -- so they would at least 19 check back in on the 9th, and say -- 20 : -- and then -- 21 : -- where are we at on 22 this thing? 23 : -- but then, I don't know, 24 you know, what that conversation was. I don't 25 know if, on the 9th, even came to work. EFTA00059245 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 376 1 : Right. 2 : I don't know. He could have 3 said -- 4 : Well, we do -- 5 : -- oh, well, I'm not going 6 7 : -- we know. But yeah. 8 : -- huh? 9 : And we know. 10 : Right. 11 : Yeah. 12 : So, I don't know. I don't 13 want to speculate on that part. 14 : Yeah, yeah, no. That's 15 what we are trying to tell you. Is, like 16 : Right. 17 : -- we know he was there. 18 : Right. 19 : On the 8th, he couldn't 20 get the parts. On the 9th, he got the parts. 21 But then, he said, he tried to get into the SIS 22 office. He was told by the - it wasn't an SIS 23 tech, because there were only two people there. 24 It was somebody that -- 25 : Monitored. EFTA00059246 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE /-- 1 : -- monitored the 2 telephones. I think he's now retired. Tay? 3 : Tay. Yeah. 4 : Was there. And he said, 5 I'm getting ready to leave, and he can't come 6 in here without me. And then, he said, I 7 didn't have access to the room after that. So, 8 my plan was to come in on the 10th, the 9 Saturday, because I was coming in anyway. And 10 that's what I was going to work on. 11 : He's the com shop. He can 12 go anywhere, where there are computers. 13 : So, that is not an 14 acceptable answer that he provided? 15 : I don't understand that 16 answer. 17 : Okay. 18 : It's because that room is 19 not in where the SIS shop is. That's the phone 20 monitor room. That's the camera room. 21 : And the key for the camera 22 room is how, I think it's only the SIS 23 , and the SIA that has the keys for 24 it. 25 : That's what the SIS EFTA00059247 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 378 1 office said -- 2 : So, the -- 3 : -- they said that -. 4 : -- the phone monitor is, 5 he's in the SIS, but he draws keys to get into 6 that room. So, that room is all -. And you 7 can draw keys to get into that room. 8 : Yeah. 9 : When you saw draw keys, what 10 do you mean? 11 : Well, you get them from 12 control center. 13 : Okay. 14 : Yeah. 15 : You know? 16 : Well, we were told by 17 , the only way he could have 18 gotten them is to break the glass, which he 19 could have done. But -. 20 : You could have broken the 21 glass. And that time of time it was 8:00. The 22 captain is there. The security officer who 23 controls all the keys in the institution is 24 there. 25 : Right. EFTA00059248 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 379 1 : You can go to them and say, 2 hey, I need -- 3 MR. HAYES: The key. 4 : Now -- 5 : I need the key. 6 : -- now, did either the 7 captain or the II inform you of this issue? 8 : No. I don't -- 9 : So, you didn't know -- 10 I don't 11 : -- anything about this? 12 : -- recall anything about 13 that issue. 14 : Should have they? 15 : So, if -- 16 : If it was a Thursday, 17 they found out, and it was all -. You weren't 18 there for that. 19 : I weren't there on Friday. 20 : Okay. 21 : I wasn't there on Friday. 22 : You weren't even -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- there on Friday. 25 : So, you know -. EFTA00059249 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 380 1 : And who - I'm sorry - can 2 you remind me, who was acting in your stead on 3 Friday? 4 : I believe it was 5 , I think. 6 : Okay. 7 : So. 8 : Now -- 9 : Okay. 10 : Yeah. 11 : So, you weren't even 12 there. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Our understanding is, I think 15 was in the institution, too, 16 about 8:00 p.m. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : On the 9th. 19 : On the 9th. 20 : Right. 21 : So -- 22 : On Friday. 23 : could have been to 24 any time during that period? 25 : He could have seen him. I EFTA00059250 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 381 1 mean, just, you can't -. If it's an emergency 2 to get something for, I don't understand. That 3 is not -. 4 : No. That's great to 5 know. 6 : Yeah. 7 : About this. So, you say 8 that's not acceptable. 9 : No. You can, you can get in 10 there. So, I don't know -. 11 MR. HAYES: Well, one of the things is, is 12 in prison, you need a camera. Yeah. 13 : Right. Especially in the 14 SHU. 15 MR. HAYES: Right. Especially in the SHU. 16 : Now, who was responsible 17 to have the new camera system installed? 18 : What do you mean as far as 19 responsible? 20 : Like, who had overall 21 oversight on that? 22 : The facilities manager. 23 24 -: . Yeah. So, he - 25 EFTA00059251 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 382 1 : All right. 2 -- gets the people in there, 3 but we're allocating things. But again, I want 4 to say, that was, you know, with manpower. 5 : Okay. Now, you've pretty 6 much answered this, and you can say it's the 7 same answer, but I just want to read you the 8 question. What are your thoughts on the fact 9 that the new camera system was there since 10 October 2018, but it wasn't installed after the 11 Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 12 2019? 13 : It's the manpower. 14 : Manpower. 15 : Yeah. You know, getting 16 people, qualified people in there to do it. 17 mean, one person couldn't do that. It was, and 18 we were putting in new cameras in new areas. 19 So, he needed more people. One person couldn't 20 do it. 21 : Okay. Do you mind just 22 initialing? And don't have to go through this, 23 just the top is fine. Anything more on the 24 camera issue? 25 MR. HAYES: Oh, Christ. You got more EFTA00059252 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 issues? 2 : No. I think the -. We 3 have one more issue, and then just a couple of 4 questions based upon the BOP's findings. It 5 does say that there's leaks information. Where 6 are those emails? 7 : It was in -. Did we mix that 8 up? 9 : Here it is. So, here is 10 two emails that were sent both from 11 One to you, and one to (Phonetic 12 Sp. *04:29:13). : Yeah. He was the 14 at the time. 15 16 : Yeah. 17 : Okay. So, the first one 18 was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. to you. 19 And the subject is, "Urgent request. Potential 20 leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death." 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : It looks like -- 23 MR. HAYES: You mean -- 24 : -- where is the -- 25 MR. HAYES: -- media leak? EFTA00059253 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 1 : -- yeah. It says, 2 "Please ensure this information is given to the 3 OIG FBI. Thanks." 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : And then, this next one, 6 like you said, is from to the director. 7 Subject, "Prison guards skip mandatory checks 8 before Epstein's death." This, the body says, 9 "Couldn't see the entire article on my phone, 10 but I wouldn't be surprised there are staff 11 that are paid contacts for local media outlets. 12 This has also been discussed at the department 13 level, all the way to the White House. And who 14 knows who may have overheard those 15 discussions." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Do you know anything 18 about leaks in the media from the MCC? 19 : So, what happened was, when 20 came to see me, the issue we had was - 21 and I told him about it - was there was a 22 article in the Post that took a picture of our 23 staff, and our staff rode with Epstein on it. 24 So, I told about it, and I guess they 25 said one of the paramedics had leaked the EFTA00059254 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 385 1 information. 2 : Like, took a picture of 3 them, like -- 4 : Took a picture -- 5 : -- posing with him? 6 : -- took a picture of them 7 coming in the room, when they got to the 8 emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein 9 being rolled in. And our - what do you call 10 it? - and our staff. So, I talked to 11 about that, and then, I had also told him that, 12 you know, there might be some staff, you know, 13 because, and I didn't know where it was coming 14 from, because the information was just coming 15 out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, 16 where is this, you know, coming from? So, I 17 called and made him aware, you know, told him 18 about it when he came on Sunday. But the main 19 one was because of the picture in the Post. 20 : Now, who is it that you 21 suspect would have been leaking information to 22 him? 23 : I couldn't, I couldn't even 24 tell. But I just was, you know, with this 25 whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had EFTA00059255 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been leaked out to the media, and you are, 2 like, where is this coming from? 3 Do you have any 4 suspicions, though? 5 : I can't speculate. I mean - 6 7 MR. HAYES: That's my boy. I mean, I 8 don't know nothing. 9 : (Indiscernible *04:31:48). 10 : You're talking like an 11 attorney. 12 : No, I mean -- 13 MR. HAYES: But like that, I don't know 14 nothing, but what I do know, I don't know. 15 : I mean, I can't speculate. 16 I mean, the half of it was towards me. I mean, 17 so -. 18 : Did you leak the 19 information, you mean? 20 : No. I said it was towards 21 me. 22 : Oh, you mean the 23 information -- 24 : Like, the negative press -- 25 : -- and the negative to EFTA00059256 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 387 1 you? 2 : -- yeah. It reverted back 3 to me. 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : So, I mean, that's, you 6 know, and it was just, it was fast and furious. 7 : So, like, negative things 8 to people, you believe someone in the BOP was 9 leaking negative information about you? 10 : I don't -. I mean, I, you 11 know -- 12 : Can you give me, like, an 13 example of what was leaked about you? 14 : Well, I mean, you know, 15 stuff that happened, you know -- 16 MR. HAYES: Listen, the -- 17 and I'm not saying 18 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *04:32:26) 19 investigation was going on. 20 : -- specifically -- 21 MR. HAYES: I mean, you know -- 22 : -- specifically -- 23 MR. HAYES: -- whose fault is it? 24 right. Towards me. But 25 it was just automatically the blame was, you EFTA00059257 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 388 1 know, put on me. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : And then, you know, the 4 other part of it was, I don't know if it came 5 from the department. I don't know if it came 6 from the institution. 7 : Okay. 8 : Because all that information 9 was going, you know -- 10 : But did anybody -- 11 up on different levels. 12 : -- did anyone tell you 13 that they believed that a certain person was 14 leaking information? 15 : No. I didn't hear if it was 16 a certain person. I didn't, you know? 17 : Okay. And did you leak 18 any information to the media? 19 : Absolutely not. 20 : Okay. Do you mind just 21 initialing and dating that? Do you believe, 22 though, somebody in the BOP was leaking 23 information? 24 : And I'm not -- 25 : And I don't mean that EFTA00059258 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 389 1 personally. I just mean 2 : -- no. But -- 3 : -- you know, you could 4 always get -- 5 : - I don't -- 6 : -- the second one under 7 there. 8 : -- it could have been up to 9 the department, because the information was 10 going up to them. I mean -- 11 : But I just mean, like, 12 based upon what information was being leaked, 13 do you believe that someone in the BOP - not 14 necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was 15 leaking the information? 16 : I will put it this way. The 17 Department of Justice might -- 18 : Yeah. 19 because all the 20 information -- 21 : Because it could be -- 22 : -- was -. Yeah. 23 : OIG. FBI. 24 : Initial. 25 : Anybody. EFTA00059259 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 390 1 : It could have been anybody. 2 So, I don't want to -- 3 : Gotcha. 4 : -- kind of put it S : Sure. 6 : -- on one person. 7 : All right. The last 8 actual topic, before we ask a couple about the, 9 a couple about the findings. Epstein's will. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Do you know anything 12 about Epstein changing his will just prior to 13 his death? 14 : Mo. 15 : Had you ever heard that? 16 : After the fact. 17 : Right. And when you say 18 after the fact, how did you learn about it 19 after the fact? 20 : I don't know. Reading it. 21 Or hearing it on the news. 22 : Did you ever hear about 23 it in an official capacity? 24 : No. 25 : All right. Do you know EFTA00059260 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 1 if it's true? 2 : Don't know. 3 : Okay. 4 MR. HAYES: He left this all to his 5 brother. Right? 6 : I -- 7 MR. HAYES: Is that true? 8 : I can't comment on 9 that kind of stuff. But what actions should 10 have been taken, or you don't know if it was. 11 If it was learned that Epstein's will had been 12 changed just prior to his death, do you believe 13 any specific actions should have been taken? 14 : I don't know anything. 15 mean, I can't comment on that. 16 : Okay. So, that's the 17 last of the topics. Now, we have - 18 (Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don't 19 think we have to refer to anything other than 20 the - where is that? 21 : The after action? 22 : Yeah. Do you have it? 23 And I don't know what we actually need to cite 24 (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This 25 is the after action report. Is that -? That EFTA00059261 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 392 1 the BOP created in response. So, just a few 2 quick questions on it. It says, "On August 3 1st, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented 4 they were notified by correctional systems of a 5 form received from the United States Marshal 6 Service, the previous day, stating inmate 7 Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies." 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Do you know anything 10 about that, and what transpired? 11 : Wait. Read that again. 12 : So, "On August." So, 13 just to refresh your memory of a time, 14 timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of 15 psychological -- 16 : Psychological observation. 17 : -- observation. 18 : Right. 19 : And goes to the SHU. 20 "Two days later" - so, there's July 31st and 21 August 1st - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented 22 they were notified by correctional systems of a 23 form received from the United States Marshal 24 Service, the previous day." So, I guess on 25 July 30th. EFTA00059262 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 393 1 Mm-hmm. 2 : The 31st, I mean. 3 "Stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal 4 tendencies." This was the BOP's finding. Do 5 you know anything about that? 6 : I don't know anything about 7 that. And that's before, when he first came in 8 the system, or -? 9 : No. That was after he 10 came off of psychological observation. So, 11 after his actual first attempt at suicide. 12 : Right. 13 : Or potential harm from 14 Tartaglione. 15 : No. I didn't. 16 : You don't know anything 17 about that? 18 : Nuh-uh. 19 : Okay. And do you know 20 anything about the suicidal tendencies that he 21 was showing? 22 : No. 23 : No. All right. And 24 then, on the same date, August 1st, 2019, 25 again, this is after the Tartaglione incident. EFTA00059263 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 394 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 And after coming off of 3 psychological observation. "1:00 p.m. 4 Psychology conducts a suicide risk assessment 5 noting watch is not indicated, with a 6 recommendation for follow up in one week. The 7 delay in conducting this assessment is not 8 justified in the report." Did you learn 9 anything about that? 10 : No. I don't. 11 : Yeah, yeah. 12 : I -- 13 : And again -- 14 : -- it's psychological. 15 : -- this is just some of 16 the -- 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 : -- the negative findings. 19 : Okay. 20 : We just want to know your 21 take on it. I don't expect you to know any, 22 all of this, or anything. 23 : Right. 24 : It's just asking because 25 there's some negative findings. Okay. The EFTA00059264 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 395 1 next one. It says, "Significant -- 2 MR. HAYES: Don't bring this guy in on 3 another case. All right? If the next time 4 this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring 5 this guy, don't fucking do it. 6 : It says, "Significant 7 discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding 8 admission/release status, ARS." 9 : Right. 10 : Sentry does not reflect 11 inmate Epstein being escorted from the 12 institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July 13 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand 14 form is on file, documenting -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : having received him 17 from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional 18 review revealed inmate Epstein departed the 19 institution for a total of four court 20 appearances, and only one of these occasions 21 was an ARS change made within Sentry. It 22 appears there is a culture of foregoing this 23 vital function, due to the likelihood of the 24 inmate returning from court. This lapse in 25 procedure is a severe inmate accountability EFTA00059265 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 396 1 deficiency." 2 : Well, that statement is 3 incorrect. I know the regional office looked 4 into it and said that a pre-trial institution 5 can outcount an inmate to go into court. So, 6 he doesn't have to be keyed out on the ARS. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, the way they were doing 9 it, they looked at it after the fact, and said 10 there was nothing wrong with that. 11 : So, they did re-review 12 this matter, and -- 13 : Yes. 14 : -- said that there was -- 15 : They were fine 16 : -- they were doing it 17 with it. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. Because they kept 20 thinking, when they were looking out, same 21 thing like you said, he was going out to court, 22 but they can outcount him in that area. 23 : All right. And what are 24 they talking about, like, pre-removing him or 25 something like that, when he goes to court? EFTA00059266 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 397 1 No. Going to court. 2 : Yeah, yeah. 3 : And if anyone is going to 4 court, because you have so much court movement 5 that you can outcount them. And then, when the 6 Marshals say, hey, he's not going out, then you 7 release him out of -- 8 : So, this is -- 9 : Okay. 10 -- this means, on the El, he 11 would be listed on the outcount? 12 : As court. 13 : As court. 14 : Yeah. 15 : Okay. 16 : And that's what they were 17 actually doing? 18 : That's what they were doing. 19 : Okay. 20 : They had him on the El. 21 : So -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- so, this is no longer 24 25 : That's not -- EFTA00059267 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 398 1 : -- an issue. 2 : -- an issue. 3 : All right. The next one, 4 it says, "No notations concerning a requirement 5 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 6 program, and subsequently available for SHU 7 officers to reference." Who would have been 8 responsible for noting that in the SHU program? 9 : So -. 10 : First of all, what is the 11 SHU program? 12 : The SHU program is -- 13 : Is that the 292? 14 with the 292s. So, 1 15 don't know, from what I understand, and was 16 told after the fact, that they couldn't find 17 the information on Epstein in the SHU program. 18 So, I don't know how you came to that 19 conclusion. 20 MR. HAYES: By the way, let the record 21 indicate that he is not sweating under his 22 armpits. A good sign. 23 : We didn't. BOP came to 24 these conclusions. 25 : Right. So, I don't know EFTA00059268 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 399 1 where that conclusion came from because from 2 what I gather, they couldn't get - they 3 couldn't find the -. Because usually -- 4 : Well, they found the 5 292s, but they were just very limited. 6 : Right. The 292s usually had 7 to have everything indicated on it. So 8 : And on that note, we were 9 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 10 and it should have been larger. Had you heard 11 anything about people removing documents from 12 files? 13 : From what I understand, and 14 was told, that there was no file. They 15 couldn't -. They had every other inmate's 16 file, but not his. 17 : They couldn't even find 18 it. You didn't think they could find his file 19 at all? 20 : No. That's what was told to 21 me. 22 : And who told you that? 23 : I think I heard that after 24 the fact. I don't know if the regional 25 director told me after they came in and did the EFTA00059269 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 400 1 check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't 2 know. 3 MR. HAYES: That's after they found out 4 the Hilary Clinton -- 5 : Yeah. 6 MR. HAYES: -- came down and had them 7 (Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain 8 (Indiscernible *04:40:45). 9 : Right. 10 : But back to the original 11 question, whether it was there or not. 12 : Right. 13 : If it, the cellmate 14 requirement was not entered in the SHU program, 15 who should have made sure that it was? 16 : On the, in the 292? And I 17 don't know who was doing it. It should have 18 been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it's all 19 in there. 20 : So, the SHU lieutenant? 21 : When they - yeah - when they 22 deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain 23 conveyed the information to him, that should 24 have been put on the 292. 25 : So, either EFTA00059270 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 401 1 : By the lieutenant. 2 : -- the SHU lieutenant or 3 the OIC. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Now, when you say the 6 OIC, does one OIC of one shift take more 7 responsibility than another? 8 : No. They are all on the 9 same shift. So, it would depend on -- 10 : So, like, for instance, 11 was the OIC on the day watch, but -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : I thinlillillikas the 14 OIC on the night watch. 15 : Right. 16 : So, would one of them had 17 more of a responsibility to do this than 18 another? 19 : No. But that should have 20 been done on the initial, when the directive 21 was put out. 22 : So, from , or Ms. 23 Imeri saying that here's coming off of 24 psychological observation, he needs to be 25 housed with a cellmate EFTA00059271 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 402 1 : Right. That would have been 2 3 : -- on July 30th. 4 : -- put out, and then, when - 5 6 : So, who, at that time, 7 should have noted that in his file? 8 : Well, you would probably 9 have to find out from the captain who he 10 directed to -- 11 : Well, the captain 12 -- to doing that. 13 : -- according to his, you 14 know, his memo that he sent to you -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- it says that he 17 specifically had these conversations on 18 multiple occasions, with -- 19 : The SHU -- 20 21 : -- right. So, it would have 22 been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one he had. 23 If _was the one, thenillillwould have been 24 the one. But -- 25 : Okay. "August 9th, 2019. EFTA00059272 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 403 1 8:00 a.m. Inmate Reyes, the cellmate, departs 2 for court." 3 : Right. 4 : Again, this claims court, 5 but if they are seeing WAB. Actually, you know 6 what? I heard WAB was specific to MCC. Is 7 that correct? 8 : Other institutions will tell 9 you pack up your inmates with all belongings. 10 That's, you know 11 : Because even -- 12 : -- what it is. 13 : -- on their findings, 14 they are showing that he departed for court. 15 : Yeah. 16 : Although, all the 17 documentation we showed says WAB. 18 : WAB. 19 : And transferred. 20 : Yeah. And it says -- 21 : So, even on here, they 22 are getting this wrong? 23 : And that's what the whole 24 confusion is, is the assumption that he was 25 going to court -- EFTA00059273 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 404 1 : Because then it says -- 2 -- when you look at the 3 document -- 4 : -- so -- 5 : -- go ahead. 6 : -- yeah, and then, it 7 says, "Inmate Reyes does not return to the 8 institution." 9 : Right. 10 : So, and this was when a 11 lot of things, when we were first starting this 12 investigation, we heard was court, court, 13 didn't return from court. 14 : Right. 15 : And then, when we 16 actually looked through the record, we were, 17 like -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- court. It's -. 20 : I think people thought, 21 without looking at the documentation, that he 22 went to court and got released from court. 23 : Okay. 24 : So. 25 : So then, I'm just going EFTA00059274 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 405 1 to read the question. If the documents list 2 Reyes as being WAS, and if they had the 3 transfer list, why did they say he went to 4 court and did not return? 5 : I can't answer that. 6 : Okay. "7:00 p.m. 7 Epstein was provided a social call by the 8 institutional duty officer." Does that mean 9 10 : Yeah. He was the duty 11 officer at that time, I believe. 12 : And what does the 13 institutional duty officer mean? 14 : So, what the duty officer 15 is, is after hours, they walk around and, you 16 know, report emergencies, you know -. 17 : Is that, like, the 18 highest ranking official there? 19 : That comes on at night. You 20 know, there with the lieutenants. But they 21 just make sure that if we had any issues, you 22 know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like 23 that. 24 : So, they are kind of, 25 like, the, basically the OIC for the EFTA00059275 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 406 1 institution? 2 : Kind of. I wouldn't say the 3 OIC, but you know, senior staff around. 4 : Okay. "This call was 5 done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely 6 concerning why this call would have been 7 placed, and why it would be done on an 8 unmonitored line. Without further interviews, 9 it is not possible to determine the reason for 10 this call." Just, why does it say, "extremely 11 concerning"? 12 : I don't know. Both are 13 report -- 14 : But I mean, do you also 15 find it extremely concerning? Would you 16 classify it as extremely concerning? 17 : I mean, it would be -. 18 mean, that the choice of words that they use. 19 So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use 20 the word extremely concerning. But I would 21 think, I would -- 22 : It's certainly wrong. 23 -- it would be -- 24 : But -. 25 : -- it was an issue. But EFTA00059276 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 1 extremely concerning. 2 : Okay. "On August 9th, 3 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU 4 number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer 5 briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the 6 other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers, 7 with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be 8 returning, and inmate Epstein would require a 9 cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. 10 Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate 11 upon his return to SHU." My question to you 12 is, just, how did they know this information? 13 How would they have obtained that information? 14 Do you know? 15 : I don't know. Like I said, 16 I don't know who they spoke to during this 17 after action. 18 : Were they doing 19 interviews, though? 20 : I wasn't there. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : Were they authorized, 24 though, if OIG and FBI are doing an 25 investigation, is the after action team EFTA00059277 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 408 1 authorized to come in and interview people? 2 : So, I've done after actions. 3 And there is a point where you come to it, 4 where you, if it's an DIG or FBI investigation, 5 that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain 6 people because it might impede an 7 investigation. Like, if you are going to look 8 at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you 9 can't because most of the time, it's been 10 taken. So, I don't know -. 11 : So, possibly from that 12 memo, though, that was created? If they are 13 not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm 14 assuming they are not really supposed to be 15 doing interviews. 16 : I mean, I don't know who 17 authorized them to come in and do the 18 investigation. I don't know. It was, you 19 know, who set the parameters on it. I can't 20 speak on that. 21 : And is it a normal for 22 them to do something like this, when there is 23 an actual FBI and DIG investigation? 24 : We do after actions. So, _ 25 don't know -. EFTA00059278 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 409 1 : But I mean, do they do 2 after actions typically, when there is an open, 3 criminal investigation, though? 4 : Not typically. 5 : No? 6 : So, I don't know. And 7 again, I don't want to speculate. I don't know 8 who authorized it. I don't know if they got 9 permission from the department to come down and 10 do it. I don't want to -. 11 : Sure. "August 10th, 12 2019." So, this is the day of. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : "6:33 a.m. A body alarm 15 is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU 16 staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in 17 cell 206-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this 18 accurately. Staff entered the cell and 19 attempted to wake Epstein. Control center 20 announced a medical emergency, and 21 cardiopulmonary resuscitation," or CPR, "was 22 initiated." So, the question here is, I guess 23 I'll start with. Well, the information that we 24 have is and Noel were there. 25 immediately went into the cell. EFTA00059279 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 410 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Upon finding Epstein. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Was it appropriate for 5 him to immediately go into the cell? Or should 6 have he waited for staff to arrive on site? 7 : You should be -- 8 MR. HAYES: What? 9 : -- you're trained -- 10 MR. HAYES: To go into the cell, I would 11 think. 12 : -- no, you wait for enough 13 staff to get there, and a , before 14 you open that door. 15 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. HAYES: In other words, suppose the 18 fucking guy is in seizure. 19 : Well, the flip side of it 20 is, he could be trying -- 21 : Remember -- 22 he could be feigning it. 23 we're in a prison. 24 : Yeah. He could be feigning 25 the suicide, and then come on and attack you. EFTA00059280 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 411 1 And guess what? You're the only person there. 2 Now, he has the keys for every range door on 3 that door. 4 MR. HAYES: Okay. 5 : And you can lose 6 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 7 : -- you can lose the unit. 8 MR. HAYES: Okay. Okay. 9 : So -- 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. I made a 11 mistake. 12 : -- that wasn't -- 13 MR. HAYES: That's the first time -- 14 : So, he did not. 15 MR. HAYES: -- you make a notation, 16 (Indiscernible *04:48:23). 17 : So, he didn't 18 appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48:25)? 19 : Yeah. He didn't 20 appropriately. 21 : And should have he known 22 that from his training experience? 23 : Yeah. Yeah. 24 : "7:36 a.m., inmate 25 Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room EFTA00059281 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 1 physician. And we've already addressed this. 2 My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he 3 show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : "On August 10th, 2019, 6 the two assigned morning watch SHU officers 7 failed to make their designated rounds, or 8 count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 9 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive 10 in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his 11 neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate 12 a call for assistance. The medical response to 13 the incident was timely, efficient, and 14 exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as 15 a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS 16 personnel." Are you aware of how - what 17 information they obtained to say that the SHU 18 officers failed to make their designated rounds 19 or counts? 20 : I don't know. 21 : No? And I just say this 22 because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot 23 of this information was provided from you to 24 and was providing it to whomever, that 25 were -- EFTA00059282 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 413 1 : Right. 2 : -- was doing this, 3 though. 4 : Right. 5 : So, I was assuming, in 6 drafting these questions, that a lot of this 7 information came from you. 8 : But I wasn't here when this 9 was. 10 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11 think a lot of this stuff, though, was 12 provided, you know -- 13 : Right. 14 : -- during the email 15 review, those first couple of days. 16 : Okay. 17 : So, that's why I'm asking 18 these questions, is, like, do you know where 19 this information came from? 20 : No, I don't. 21 : No? 22 : Hmm-mm. 23 : Okay. "Institution duty 24 officers do not routinely visit SHU each day, 25 as required by the institution supplement. EFTA00059283 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 1 Additionally, the IDO reports consistently 2 document the condition of SHU as satisfactory, 3 when observations have shown the SHU to be less 4 than satisfactory." Do you have any comment on 5 that? Do you agree with that assessment? 6 : Oh, I don't know what day 7 they went in there. Again, when these 8 observations were done, I wasn't 111 9 the institution. 10 : Okay. But prior to, when 11 you were , do you know about the 12 institution duty officers not routinely 13 visiting the SHU each day as required? 14 : No. I didn't know about 15 that. 16 : You didn't know about 17 that. 18 : I didn't. I ensured 19 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 20 made sure the areas were clean. So. 21 : Okay. And what was their 22 ultimate responsibility when they would visit 23 the SHU? 24 : I guess same thing, to make 25 rounds in the unit. Check on the inmates. EFTA00059284 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 415 1 Make sure there are no issues. 2 : And is that, like you 3 said, the idea was the guy that's on at night? 4 : That's the duty officer. 5 The institution duty officer. 6 : Always at night, though? 7 : They use - they typically 8 work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 12:00 to 9:00. 9 They cover the evening shift. 10 : Because I thought it was 11 explained to me, it was kind of, like, the 12 person in charge when you are not here. 13 : Well, yeah. But then, the 14 other flip side of it go to the other shifts, 15 you know, the is the CEO 16 in the absence of a warden. So -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- the duty officer is just 19 the bridge to the executive staff. 20 : But they were actually 21 supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds 22 every day? 23 : And then, again, I don't 24 know if they were or were not. I don't know 25 what they were, you know, what he was looking EFTA00059285 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 416 1 at. 2 : Now, why would, was 3 a reoccurring -- 4 : What? 5 6 Was he a reoccurring -? 7 : No. The duty officers. 8 Like, sometimes, you can get it twice a year. 9 : Oh, okay. 10 : So, I don't -. 11 : But is it, like, a 12 quarterly -- 13 : Well, remember -- 14 : -- submitted post type of 15 thing? 16 : -- remember, he is also, he 17 is the duty officer, but he is also his unit 18 manager. 19 : But was he -- 20 : So -. 21 : -- the consistent duty 22 officer? 23 : No, no, no, no. They 24 rotate. 25 : Every day? EFTA00059286 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. Every week. 2 : Every week. 3 : Yeah. You have other ones, 4 every week. So -. 5 : So, it goes between other 6 unit managers? 7 : Other unit managers. Other 8 department heads. So, it kind of goes, you 9 know? 10 : What is the grade -- 11 : And do they -. 12 : -- level requirement? 13 : The department heads. It's 14 usually 12 or higher. 15 : 12 or higher. 16 : And some, like, maybe some 17 GS-11s. Our trust fund supervisors. 18 MR. HAYES: What grade level are you? 19 : Huh? 20 MR. HAYES: What level are you? 21 : SES. 22 MR. HAYES: Which means? 23 : It's like a general. 24 : No. A staff. 25 : No. It's what it's EFTA00059287 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 418 1 equivalent to. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : Right. 4 : So, if you're looking at 5 the military equivalent -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: Hey, man. 8 : -- it would be -- 9 MR. HAYES: I can't be too -- 10 : -- the general. 11 MR. HAYES: -- cheap. 12 : No. No. No. I can't 13 afford that. I got kids. 14 MR. HAYES: Well, fuck. Why didn't -- 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. HAYES: why didn't somebody tell me 17 that before? 18 : No, no, no. I got -- 19 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:52:52). 20 : -- yeah. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 : So, the highest level you 23 can go to in the GS level is 15. And that is 24 basically a full (Indiscernible *04:53:00) 25 colonel in the military. SES is the general EFTA00059288 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 419 1 level. So, don't -. He's being modest. 2 : No. Yeah. 3 MR. HAYES: I always liked him anyway. 4 : I did not know. I 5 thought, I assumed you were 15 since your AWs 6 are 14s, though. 7 : No. But certain 8 institutions, you are SESs. 9 : And MCC was one of those 10 institutions? 11 : MCC is one. Your pre-trials 12 are 15s. Your penitentiaries. Your big lows. 13 Like, Fort Dix. Certain mediums. 14 : And have you maintained? 15 Are you still an SES now? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. Since this time, 18 have you ever been demoted or anything like 19 that? 20 : No. 21 : No. 22 MR. HAYES: You know, man, I really -- 23 : No. Just got 24 MR. HAYES: I really got (Indiscernible 25 *04:53:45) for this guy. EFTA00059289 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 426 1 : -- no. 2 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:53:45). 3 You know how, I always give law enforcement 4 guys a big, you know, a discount. But I 5 didn't, he's fuck - he's a fucking 6 (Indiscernible *04:53:52) -- 7 : I'm (Indiscernible 8 *04:53:52) a discount. 9 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *04:53:54) 10 couldn't afford him to pay. 11 : Remember, I'm a federal 12 employee. 13 : Federal boys. It doesn't 14 matter if you're a general or not. 15 : We don't make any money. 16 : You're not making a lot 17 of money. 18 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 19 : But -. 20 : Remember, I think the 21 president makes, what? 22 : Yeah. 23 : 250, and he's the 24 : 400. 25 : -- 400. EFTA00059290 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 421 1 : Yeah. 2 : Is it 400 now? 3 : And the Vice President makes 4 two something. 5 : Yeah, yeah. No. That's 6 7 : And never disciplined. When 8 I was moved, never given a reason why I was 9 moved. I was just moved. 10 : Okay. So, is the report 11 also says that, "Psychology intake screening of 12 Epstein contained errors in identifying 13 details, including that Epstein was referred to 14 as a black inmate, and by different inmate 15 names." 16 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. You're kidding me. 17 They said he was black? Hell, that was a 18 mistake. 19 : Do you know anything 20 about that? 21 : I don't know anything about 22 that. 23 : Would that be a 24 psychology issue? 25 : That is a psychology, EFTA00059291 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 422 1 whoever was doing that review. 2 : All right. "SHU has 3 multiple cells equipped with video recording 4 capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in 5 one of these cells. And there appears to be no 6 set guidance on when to utilize these cells." 7 So, you already said you didn't believe, like, 8 he should have been. 9 : So -- 10 : Is that correct? 11 let me correct that. 12 None of the cells, none of the cells that we 13 had in SHU were, had cameras in the cells that 14 were being, working and being used. The only 15 ones up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is 16 Ten South. 17 : Okay. So, no 18 : So, they -- 19 : -- where else in the 20 institution -- 21 : -- nowhere else in there had 22 cameras in the cell. 23 MR. HAYES: Hmm. 24 : Ten South, we have it in the 25 cells where you can see -- EFTA00059292 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : That -- 2 : How about, like, Nine 3 South lower, or something like that? Would 4 they? Isn't that, like, the mini Ten South? 5 : That's the - yeah - that's 6 the -- 7 : Or G tier. 8 : G tier. 9 : That's not -- 10 : Right. 11 : -- what this is. 12 : So, that -- 13 : Did they have cameras? 14 : -- that did have recording 15 cameras in -- 16 : Just live cameras? 17 in South, yeah. Just 18 Nope. But then, we had no cameras on there 19 that had live cameras in the South. 20 : Okay. So, only 21 : Ten South. 22 : -- Ten South. 23 : Only Ten South. 24 : So -- 25 : So -. EFTA00059293 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 424 1 : -- this statement might 2 actually associate Ten South as part of the 3 SHU. 4 : Right. Because a lot of 5 people that come in, when they first come in, 6 Ten South is part of there, actually part of 7 Nine South. We call it -. It's part of an 8 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 9 have never been there, they don't 10 differentiate. 11 : So, being that these are 12 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 13 your response to them saying that there appears 14 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 15 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 16 Was there guidance on that? 17 : Yeah. Ten South, like i 18 said, was specifically for the SAMs inmates. 19 : So, do you -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- also believe that that 22 is an incorrect statement, then? 23 : If that's what they are 24 referring to, I do believe it is. 25 : And you believe there was EFTA00059294 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 425 1 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? 2 : Ten South is -- 3 : For a single cell. 4 : -- is the one where we had 5 our cameras. 6 : Okay. 7 : Okay. 8 : Because we had also been 9 informed that there were cells outside of Ten 10 South that had cameras in them, specifically 11 think G tier. That's inaccurate? 12 : G tier. There is no 13 recording of inmates in those cells. 14 : Just live? 15 : And I don't even believe 16 live. I know the only ones we had was Ten 17 South. 18 : Okay. 19 : We also heard that Ten South 20 wasn't supposed to be utilized anymore. It was 21 actually supposed to be phased out. 22 : It was supposed to be what? 23 : Phased out. 24 : What do you mean phased out? 25 : It was actually brought up, EFTA00059295 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 426 1 brought out during the time, after 9/11, to 2 house terrorist inmates. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Have you ever heard anything 5 about the fact that no one was supposed to be 6 housed up there anymore (Indiscernible 7 *04:57:12)? 8 : No. It's not -. It's not 9 to house terrorist inmates. It's to house 10 inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, 11 the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them 12 are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an 13 inmate housed for espionage. You know? And 14 then -- 15 : Was it supposed to have been 16 phased out due to PREA concerns? 17 : I didn't -. I don't know 18 anything about that. 19 : Okay. 20 : No. 21 : Okay. The next one is, 22 the report also shows that, "A review was done 23 regarding the overtime conducted by the C.O.s 24 at the MCC, and the shortage of staff." It 25 doesn't say much about it. Do you know what EFTA00059296 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 427 1 the overall team's finding was? Do you agree 2 that there was a shortage of staff? 3 : Yeah, there was. I mean 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : I'll give you an example. 6 We were short staffed. I was relieving 7 officers on their posts, and on some weekends, 8 I would come in and work a post. I mean -- 9 : You, as 10 : -- as . I mean, 11 we had -. We were short. I mean -. 12 : Now, is there a Was 13 there a way to rectify that issue? 14 : We could. I mean, hiring. 15 We had, I mean, 40 or 50 staff on OWCP 16 (Phonetic Sp. *04:58:23). 17 : And can you explain what 18 that is? 19 : Workers compensation. 20 : Oh. And what was the 21 percentage there, you said? 22 : About 40 or 50 staff on it. 23 : 40 or 50 staff. 24 : Yeah. On there -. 25 : Did they seem to abuse EFTA00059297 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 428 1 that? 2 : We all knew it was an abuse. 3 I mean, we -. We had even had conversations 4 with the IG about, you know, you're going to 5 the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So 6 7 MR. HAYES: So -- 8 : -- every -. 9 MR. HAYES: -- they were all using the 10 same doctor? 11 : The same doctor. But again, 12 I understand, every agency is short. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : I mean, so, we just had that 15 constant problem. 16 MR. HAYES: That's, like -- 17 : You know? 18 MR. HAYES: -- they use some of these -. 19 Some things, they use the same expert witnesses 20 all the time. 21 : Right. The hiring. We had 22 a lot of department heads that we would use to 23 cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, 24 would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to 25 make do with what we had. EFTA00059298 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 429 1 : Now, was there, like, a 2 plan in place to try to get you guys up to 3 proper staffing levels? 4 : I mean, we were working on 5 hiring. You know, and getting people in. But 6 it's a process. You know? To get somebody 7 hired, it takes between six and eight months. 8 : And were there a number 9 of people in the pipeline? 10 : Not really. I mean, we went 11 out and did recruiting, because we were 12 competing with other agencies. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : You know? Other agencies 15 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 16 You know? To, to get people on. So, it was 17 just a matter of, you know, getting people on 18 board. 19 : And do you think it could 20 have been handled better by some, in some way, 21 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 22 : There's certain things we 23 don't control. Staffing. You know, the 24 budget. We don't -. I don't We don't 25 control that. I mean, we can turn around and EFTA00059299 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 430 1 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, 2 and it said, this is what you are getting, you 3 don't We need to work with what we've got. 4 : No, and I understand 5 that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. 6 But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, 7 covering SDNY, and having such high-profile 8 inmates. Was there - do you think that there 9 could have been anything done better, though, 10 by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, 11 specifically MCC, was better staffed? 12 : You could - so, let's go TDY 13 - we couldn't really, could TDY to a point, but 14 then, there are other institutions around the 15 agency that were, you know, the staffing was an 16 issue. So, they can't send somebody out to 17 help, you know? And then, it just brought down. 18 the finding. I mean, and getting people to 19 clear your background. Not everybody can clear 20 a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go 21 out in the street and say, hey, we got a job 22 for you, but can you pass the guidelines? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : And a lot of time, do we 25 know. EFTA00059300 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 1 : All right. So, we're 2 literally less than half of a page left. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : But this next one is just 5 going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of 6 read it -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- along with me because 9 it's so long. "He was also an inmate who had 10 risk factors for assault by other inmates, and 11 did require careful selection for appropriate 12 cellmates. Although these issues were noted, 13 well documented, and communicated, a failure 14 still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be 15 placed in the cell alone. Although feasible 16 for an inmate to effectuate suicide while 17 housed with a cellmate, the odds of this 18 occurring are significantly lowered when housed 19 with another inmate." 20 The report continues. "It is apparent 21 various staff at the institution made a point 22 of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned 23 cellmate. The captain personally instructed 24 the lieutenants, individually. A mass email 25 was distributed by psychology, and it is EFTA00059301 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 432 1 apparent some SHU officers were aware. 2 Although many people acknowledge this is an 3 important fact, ultimately, the final staff 4 responsible for not - or did not ensure the 5 requirement was met, including vital 6 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 7 a mass email does not ensure -." (Indiscernible 8 *05:02:20) -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- "including vital 11 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 12 a mass email does not ensure those who truly 13 need that information do, in fact, receive it 14 timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was 15 actually placed with a cellmate when removed 16 from psychological -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- observation. After 19 that moment, it is clear there was no 20 additional written directive, or a fail safe 21 system established, to ensure inmate Epstein 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : -- would have had a 24 cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first 25 and foremost, do you believe, probably the EFTA00059302 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 433 1 primary reason why Epstein was able to take his 2 own life was because he didn't have a cellmate? 3 On top of the fact that they weren't conducting 4 rounds in SHU? And counts. 5 : I can't speak to the 6 mindset. Only I can speak to is, he killed 7 himself. 8 : But what I'm asking is, 9 would it have certainly helped prevent his 10 death by one) having an inmate; and two) having 11 rounds and counts conducted? 12 : Oh, if people did their job. 13 : Right. 14 : You know? And -. 15 : Like, obviously, if he 16 killed himself, he did it. 17 : Right. 18 : But the way that the 19 government can better ensure that that doesn't 20 happen is by ensuring that, when it is mandated 21 that someone has a cellmate, they have a 22 cellmate. 23 : Right. 24 : And when they do their 25 job, like you just said, they conduct rounds EFTA00059303 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 1 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe 2 would have helped keep him alive today, if, you 3 know, from the government perspective? 4 : I mean, again, I'm going to 5 just say, I can't say what would have kept him 6 alive, but I will say, you know, if people made 7 their rounds, did their job, followed 8 instructions that they were given, then it 9 might have -. Could have minimized what, you 10 know -- 11 MR. HAYES: The risk. 12 : -- you know, what happened. 13 The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he 14 would have done it or not done it. If that 15 would have stopped him. 16 : Now, as far as this last 17 sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment, 18 it is clear there was no additional written 19 directive, or fail safe system established to 20 ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate 21 going forward." What do you think could have 22 been done, and who should have done it? 23 : So, directives and the 24 information was conveyed to people verbally, 25 documented on forms, on what you are supposed EFTA00059304 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 435 1 to do. There was signs up. 2 : Now, what signs do you 3 know that were up? 4 : No, I mean, the one you read 5 to me, about the sign about doing the 30-minute 6 checks. 7 : Oh, I think this is -- 8 : So -. 9 : -- specifically talking 10 about the celimate requirement. 11 : No. I mean, (Indiscernible 12 *05:05:02) cellmate requirement. It was put 13 out by the captain. Directives were given. 14 Staff was spoken to. You know, it's kind of 15 boiled down to people not doing their job. i 16 mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, 17 it's given to you in writing, what more do we 18 have to do? 19 : Well, that's kind of my 20 question, because the BOP is the one who wrote 21 that finding. So, I'm curious myself -- 22 : I mean, that's -- 23 : -- what you think -- 24 : I mean -- 25 : -- that could have been EFTA00059305 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 done. 2 : -- that's somebody's 3 opinion. 4 : Right. 5 : You know? That's a Monday 6 morning quarterback that came in and make an 7 opinion. I don't know what their ulterior 8 motive is 9 : Can you think of any -- 10 for making it. 11 : -- anything that wasn't 12 done? Can you think of anything, like, oh, if 13 this could have helped, or maybe he should have 14 done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. 15 : I can't think of anything 16 they should have done. 17 : No. Okay. 18 : Can I ask? 19 : Yeah. 20 : I know it's bound to - based 21 on once everything comes up, these are 22 questions that they're going to have. So, I 23 got to ask. I know you mentioned that you 24 couldn't have secondary selection. Like, 25 another replacement for Reyes, because inmates EFTA00059306 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 437 1 keep moving. But is it possible that a list 2 should have been created? That, you know, 3 should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, 4 if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of 5 maybe possible five inmates that you could 6 choose from? 7 : But I mean, under, you know, 8 different inmates, we can do that, but he was a 9 high-profile inmate that -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : I would have had to get 12 that name and run it up to the department, to 13 see if it was okay. It wasn't just him. I was 14 going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you 15 to, you know, we're going to put this guy -. I 16 was, just like with the other ones, sent it up 17 to the department. So, again, it would have 18 been based on who was there. 19 : And because 20 : If that. 21 : -- because of that 22 extreme detail that had to go into selection, I 23 think what is asking you is, should have 24 there been a list of names that the higher ups 25 signed off on, in case someone was removed, EFTA00059307 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 438 1 they went to court, they didn't come back, they 2 were transferred, things like this. 3 : Like, that's what they list 4 as a fail safe. Like -- 5 : Right. I mean -- 6 : -- as a precautionary 7 measure. 8 : -- it could have been, but 9 then it would have still been based on who was 10 there that day, at the time. 11 : And that's why I think 12 he's saying, like, a list of five people versus 13 one or two. So, if this person is not -- 14 : I don't -- 15 : -- there, what about this 16 one? That one is not there, either. But maybe 17 this guy. You know, that type of thing. Or 18 did you -- 19 : I just -- 20 : -- just stand by a hunch? 21 : -- yeah. I just, I just 22 feel, like, you know -- 23 MR. HAYES: Don't know. 24 : -- it was, I can't, no. 1 25 mean -- EFTA00059308 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 439 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 -- again, I'm operating in 3 hindsight. I mean, at the time -- 4 : Okay. 5 : -- you know, that's what was 6 done. 7 : Yeah, we know you do. 8 : Yeah. And we are 9 absolutely asking you to operate in hindsight. 10 : Right. 11 : Saying, like 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- Monday morning 14 quarterbacking -- 15 : Right. 16 : -- yourself and your own 17 institution, I get it. But, like, Monday 18 morning quarterbacking this situation 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- what do you think 21 they, you know, they are referring to this as 22 the BOP, and we are not the experts. 23 : Right. 24 : We're coming in. But BOP 25 is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they EFTA00059309 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 440 1 mean by this? 2 : Right. But 3 : And what are some things 4 that could have been done? 5 : -- but those are individuals 6 that are coming in, looking at a situation, 7 that weren't deeply involved in it. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : You know, they weren't the 10 ones that were told, hey, okay, I'm talking to 11 my boss, and it's going all the way up to the 12 department. That wasn't That wasn't privy 13 to them. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : That was a need to know 16 basis. 17 : But unfortunately, everyone 18 is who going to eventually look at this case -- 19 : Right. 20 -- is going to be doing the 21 same exact thing as they are. 22 : No. But what I'm saying is, 23 if we're looking at assessing the situation on 24 what happened in real time, that's what I'm 25 talking about. So, in real time, now, if they EFTA00059310 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 441 1 had known that, hey, you know what? These 2 names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at 3 the same time, maybe it would have been a 4 different thought process. 5 : And was it possible - and 6 maybe you discussed this - was it possible 7 that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have 8 replaced -? Did they have the ability to 9 replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they 10 have to come up the chain of command, for the 11 chain of command to tell them who the new 12 inmate -? 13 : They were instructed, hey, 14 let us know when - where he's to have a 15 cellmate at all time - and to notify, let 16 someone know. Because again, due to the 17 individual that he was, you just don't want to 18 throw anybody. 19 : Okay. But doesn't that kind 20 of hinder them from taking action? Let's say, 21 at that point on that day, you are not in the 22 institution, was there, I 23 understand. 24 : There was an acting warden 25 there. You had the executive staff there. EFTA00059311 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 442 1 Just because the warden is not there doesn't 2 mean the institution doesn't run. That's why 3 you have, you know, people acting on your 4 behalf. You know? That could make -- 5 : So, maybe -- 6 those decisions. 7 : -- maybe, what 8 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 9 it sounds like you would have to go over your 10 head to even make that decision, has to go to 11 the regional director level, would the 12 associate warden have the ability to go to the 13 regional director, or would have they known to 14 go to the regional director? 15 : So, let's say that did 16 happen, right? They would have -- 17 : Well, it did happen. 18 no, I'm saying, as far as 19 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 20 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 21 working. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Because I got the government 24 phone. And they're going to call me and tell 25 me, hey, this is what we got going on. He EFTA00059312 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 443 1 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, 2 okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it 3 up. 4 : So, basically, you were 5 always available. Someone was always 6 available, that if the proper notification was 7 being made, up the chain of command -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- a newer inmate could have 10 been assigned. 11 : That's why I carried it. 12 That's why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23). 13 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, 14 even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an 15 issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. 16 : Okay. And if someone does 17 ask, should the SHU officers have been given 18 the ability? Your answer to that would have 19 been, you have that phone with you, someone 20 should have made that notification. So -- 21 : Right. 22 : -- someone in the higher -- 23 : And they -- 24 : -- of command. 25 : -- and they would contact EFTA00059313 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 444 1 me. 2 : Okay. 3 : So, it was not, like, I'm 4 off on paper. Because I am using my leave. 5 But I'm still on duty because you can call me 6 on my phone. 7 : Okay. 8 : Yeah. 9 : My last two questions. 10 Based on your conversation, and after this -- 11 MR. HAYES: Thank God. 12 : -- based on your 13 conversations, and this after-action report 14 that we just reviewed those topics, what are 15 the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to 16 die? 17 : I'm not -. I mean, that's - 18 . I think -. I can't -. That's -. You know, 19 like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm 20 giving personal opinions. I'm not -- 21 : Again, and I'm not asking 22 you to say why he killed himself. 23 : Right. 24 : Or if he could have. 25 What I'm saying is, what are the failures of EFTA00059314 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 1 the BOP? 2 MR. HAYES: He killed himself because he 3 ain't stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, 4 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in 5 prison. 6 : Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - 7 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 9 : -- and I'm not, 10 absolutely not asking -- 11 MR. HAYES: No. 12 : -- as far as what is his 13 mental state, and could have he had the ability 14 15 : But I can't -- 16 : -- but are the failures, 17 as you see them, after we reviewed all this, 18 that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, 19 in this instance? Unless you don't think that 20 they did anything wrong. 21 : No. I'm not saying they did 22 anything wrong. But again, these are things 23 that you are going to find. I mean, right now, 24 I can look at it and say, we're looking at 25 people not making rounds and all that. But EFTA00059315 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 446 1 there's still an investigation going on. So, I 2 don't want to sit here and speculate 3 : No, but we are the ones 4 5 and say -- 6 : -- doing the 7 investigation, and -- 8 : -- right. 9 : -- you are the leader of 10 the organization that, you know, of the place. 11 That's why this is a very relevant question for 12 you to answer because -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- you know, this was the 15 facility that you oversaw. 16 : Right. So -- 17 : So, we're just All 18 I'm simply asking is, what do you think the 19 problems are, as you see them? After you just 20 heard everything we just talked about for, it 21 seems like the last five hours. 22 : No. I mean, if we would 23 talk - I mean, you're not counting. You didn't 24 make your rounds in that unit, to check on an 25 inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics EFTA00059316 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 447 1 right there. 2 : Okay. 3 : You know, we can talk about 4 all the other stuff, but the basic is, you did 5 not go and make those rounds. 6 : And would you also, 7 though, add to that the fact that they didn't 8 replace Reyes -- 9 : Oh. 10 : -- like they were 11 supposed to? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. What actions could 14 the BOP have taken to possibly prevent 15 Epstein's death? 16 MR. HAYES: It doesn't sound like -- 17 : Right. 18 MR. HAYES: -- still, you were nervous. 19 : Totally. 20 MR. HAYES: That's all. I mean, you could 21 have -- 22 : It just, it sounds like 23 they quote, the answer would be, conduct your 24 rounds, conduct your counts. Get a 25 : Do your job. EFTA00059317 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 : -- do your job. Get 2 Reyes -. 3 MR. HAYES: 99 times out of a 100, it 4 wouldn't have happened. 5 : Right. So 6 MR. HAYES: You know, it's -. 7 : -- but in this case, it 8 does seem, like, a lot of this was a result of 9 - like you keep on saying - people not doing 10 their jobs. 11 MR. HAYES: Jobs. 12 : But I mean -- 13 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 14 : -- but in all fairness, 15 we've had, since Epstein died, and before, 16 we've had almost 60 suicides. So, it's the 17 same reoccurring theme. 18 : Right. 19 : You know, people not making 20 their rounds and doing what they're supposed to 21 do. 22 : And is that the same 23 thing that's happening with them, they're not 24 doing their rounds or counts? 25 : I mean, and nine times out EFTA00059318 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 1 of ten, every time you look into something, it 2 is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not 3 counting, you know? So, it's the normal 4 things. 5 : Are these other 6 instances, where we find out that they didn't 7 have cellmates? 8 : Single cell. You know, I 9 mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you 10 look at it, and you look at the numbers of 11 single cell inmates. But there is instances 12 where, you know, sometimes you do have to put 13 somebody in a cell single. 14 : Sure. 15 : But, you know, there is 16 other suicides, and they don't stop. You know? 17 Some of it is, you know, staff had no control 18 over it, and some staff had control over it. 19 : And I do apologize. I 20 said that was the last question, but I guess 21 should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking 22 yourself, is there anything that you should 23 have done differently? 24 : Hmm. 25 : As the MCC warden? EFTA00059319 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : As far as what? This 2 situation? 3 : Yeah. Just anything that 4 you feel, like, oh, you know, like, I should 5 have done this better, or I could have done 6 this better. That type of thing. 7 : I can't. 8 : Just for the record, let 9 me just -- 10 : I can't think of anything 11 for that. 12 : -- okay. Anything else 13 you have? 14 : No. 15 MR. HAYES: That's it? 16 : Anything that -- 17 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 18 : -- you wanted to add to 19 anything, Warden, anything that -- 20 MR. HAYES: I didn't know if you said 21 : -- we missed, or you want 22 to -? 23 MR. HAYES: -- generally. 24 : No. No. That's it. 25 : Is there anything you think EFTA00059320 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 451 1 we missed asking about? 2 MR. HAYES: Don't ask him that. 3 : Not that I can think of. 4 MR. HAYES: You have a right to remain 5 silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, 6 listen, you know? 7 : Yeah. No. We got you. 8 MR. HAYES: Like, I was impressed that you 9 did that. He couldn't go through this. I 10 would have been to the bathroom, like, I got to 11 do this, I got to do this. I mean, I got to 12 make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He 13 just sat there and answered all the questions. 14 I mean, he's not -- 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. HAYES: -- even sweating under his 17 armpits. 18 : And thank you very much - 19 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- for your cooperation - 22 23 : No. I appreciate -- 24 : Especially -- 25 : -- you guys. EFTA00059321 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 452 1 : -- the recording is 2 showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. 3 So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is 4 currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 5 2021. This is 6 and I am turning off the recorder. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00059322 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 453 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 7 8 Interview of 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00059323